Freedom of movement or MOBA — which characteristic is this game heading toward?

[grim lava]

With the new champion releases — Wukong, Tetra — and the map changes that increase air time, it’s become clear that characters with vertical movement and dunk skills perform better than those without.

Theorycraft made a deliberate decision to lean toward MOBA-like positioning and movement rather than the freedom of movement seen in games like Titanfall 2 or Apex Legends. The problem is that the gap between high-mobility champions and low-mobility ones fractures the game’s identity, making it feel like we’re playing two different games: one on the ground, and one in the air. High mobility enhances player expression but becomes oppressive for those without it.

I’d like to understand what both the players and the dev team prefer:
a game where most characters can wall jump, use vertical movement skills, and double jump — or a League of Legends-style battle royale?

[hard night]

I'd like the mobility ceiling on the repeat offenders (Jin,Brall,WK) to be brought more in line with the rest of the cast.

Obviously they need higher mobility to gap close because they're melee, but as it stands they have more than triple the mobility than some hunters in the game and that creates very one sided engagements and a stark contrast in rotation speed around the map.

[austere hemlock]

just remove high tops boots from the game

high mobilty champ wasnt a problem in beta

[opal coral]

Me when I lie

[austere hemlock]

brall was b- tier in beta

jin was unplayble

[opal coral]

The map changes only served to widen the gap. And it's a pretty huge oversight by TC imo. I think the scale of the map shouldn't have changed upon release.

Mobility just became infinitely more valuable after 1.0

[austere hemlock]

wu is just to broken

[faint jetty]

Good one

[opal coral]

Youre literally just wrong ash XD

[austere hemlock]

its not a problem by their kit

nothing change

only new things made them broken

like new boots

new stats items

new abyss

before they wasnt rly strong

no joke

[faint jetty]

Who was the most nerfed hunter in the entire game again?

Oh right brall

[austere hemlock]

sure*

ik

and we was bad at least from my pov

even blackrog

stop playing this champ before

Rn he abuses to much of "new items" ofc

vive t3

time staff

etc etc

but its just a problem of items imo

he abuse to much of stats

[faint jetty]

Mobility has always been a problem it’s not just 1.0

It just feels even more exaggerated now

[austere hemlock]

i agree but before he had only mobility, now he has even more of that + dmg/heal/othersStats

[hard night]

Brall has always been an issue, even post nerfs. Through everything he never stopped being a high elo staple in NA

[faint jetty]

Brall never had damage? What lol

[austere hemlock]

in EU high elo/scrim, 0.0% pick rate

[faint jetty]

Just because EU players didn’t play him in the meta doesn’t mean he wasn’t good

In means your meta was different

[austere hemlock]

same for NA xd

not bc in NA he is perma pick he is op

[hard night]

I'm confused are we saying Brall wasn't picked in NA scrims?

[austere hemlock]

no

EU

[faint jetty]

Ash is EU

[austere hemlock]

NA -> perma brall

EU -> no Brall

in beta at least

[hard night]

I'm more confused about this

[dusty forge]

I do not like the addition of vertical movement. I think it creates problems with aiming, ambiguity with whether or not a target can be hit, it devalues positioning and knowing the map.

I dont think its entirely fair to say, no vertical movement = LoL style BR. SV still has a lot more movement than league and, in my opinion, feels really good right now excluding the obvious movement abusers.

[faint jetty]

He means the logic miles

Brall played in na —> op
Brall not played in eu —-> btier

[hard night]

Okay gotcha gotcha

[austere hemlock]

but i agree that rn is ofc rly good

[faint jetty]

My argument is he was always good ur meta just was just slower and full anti dive comps so why would anyone want to play brall

[austere hemlock]

but i feel like people gonna destroy him and made another character uselless

[grim lava]

dude what game are you playing?

[austere hemlock]

why in EU it was shit -> oath/myth/bishop in every team in scrim+

[faint jetty]

Just make another

Message

lol

[delicate zodiac]

I feel like this was almost specifically cus of oath. What brall doing to an oath

[grim lava]

oath bishop was top at leas A tier on NA, i think u are really playing another game

[hard night]

Brall into Oath isn't even an especially bad matchup if he has a teammate drawing pressure

Imo

[faint jetty]

But anyway I think we can all agree brall is strong

And mobility is a problem

[grim lava]

opressive

almost same level as wukong

[delicate zodiac]

"But they're melee so they need infinite tools and mobility or they just don't function", i love how some people actually think this.

[grim lava]

any mobility character and dunk will be stronger in high elo

[faint jetty]

I don’t understand why brall was never thought to need a rework. Like seriously they just failed with this character lol

[delicate zodiac]

The dunk on then doesn't even matter as much due to eplats. The mobility is just abused a lot more and it makes games unfun versus actually good players of those hunters

[grim lava]

because to it needs some pratice to use him well, and is not even much popular as shiv that has a very simple combo and high damage

[grim lava]

agree

[faint jetty]

According to stats this isn’t true. He is the highest pick rate and highest winrate champion

[grim lava]

needs to check what elo too is the highest pick

is possible that more u understand the game more u are forced to use a mobility dunk character

[delicate zodiac]

This isn't exactly true. This is probably the best for low elo stats we got. It's based on all ganes op.gg collects

[grim lava]

dont use this data because is not official data from devs

[delicate zodiac]

Yea ik. But it's the best we got

[grim lava]

but this shows like the preference of players that use op.gg

[dusty forge]

mmm so about the topic of the thread...?

[grim lava]

so the aiming is the algoritm that take time to ajust, is not a problem is more like the player needs to learn, and can be fixed. if you go for lol style BR you will have the same case of batlerite royal.

what makes this game unique is the movement

[opal coral]

There needs to be some level playing field that is stagnant. The baseline is something the community doesn't agree on at all. And I'm not sure what TC considers that to be since it varies wildly patch to patch.

Like in LOL for example the movement speed stat is near identical on most characters and only augmented by boots which are an equal upgrade in most cases.

I.e a level playing field for that mechanic

In supervive you can contrast void to Jin

It's night and day

In that game as well abilities are designed to be unmissable. In supervive it's all skill shots.

One example. Ryze cage being a hard counter for a slippery hunter like Fizz in LoL

In supervive there is no equivalent

[dusty forge]

Im not sure the algorithm is the whole story. There is this option, for example. Whether or not the algorithm works perfectly, the fact that this is an option says that different people will want to aim in different places when dealing with targets that have moved vertically and while on land there arent any balloons to aim at.

[grim lava]

multiple times dude, the aim isn't a game problem per se is just you need to understand how it work and ajust

if you have difficulties is because of the isometric view changes the refrece point when higher or lower

then the algorithm needs to ajust and takes time, but this isnt a problem if you as player understand and ajust

[dusty forge]

I agree with this. I think that movement is so fundamentally valuable that it needs to be somewhat standardized.

[grim lava]

agree too

[stark elm]

I'd genuinely love to see the stats on rocket boots pick rate

[dusty forge]

Sure, I understand. It's probably a me issue. It is ambiguous though, especially the cutoff point of when a target is too high to hit at all. I think they'd have to add balloons on land too if they double down on vertical movement.

[grim lava]

https://youtu.be/P-1c6EwPLok?si=jeq8uuTxR7HCGUr_&t=946

[stark elm]

Bunny's right though

You shouldn't need a fricking YT guide that takes you out of the game to learn about an unintuitive mechanic

This is why the game is dying

It has obtuse, unintuitive mechanics that aren't being addressed fast enough

[grim lava]

dude, you dont need it you can see this difference by playing. the you tube video just explains

the point here isn't aim, is movement.. aim is a really a thing of getting use to it

[dusty forge]

The aiming laser floating is not the clearest.. I mean, I can see it in this demonstrational video, but I could very easily overlook this during an actual fight. This is also showing how the flying person can use their aiming laser to see which plane they are on, but its not immediately obvious for the person on the ground looking up at the person in the air unless the are able to see the aiming laser collide with the flying person.

[grim lava]

this is due the isometric view and is really difficult to solve in game. for example foxhole also has a similar problem with aim cuz we lose depth perception when seening things on top isometric view

but this is not the topic

[stark elm]

Yes but aiming in Supervive because of vertical movement in an isometric perspective is an obtuse vive-specific mechanic that you have to specifically rewire your brain for; no intuitive skill you gain from other games or outside gaming prepares you for it

[grim lava]

the topic is do you prefer freedom of movement vs moba movement

[stark elm]

It works in an arbitrary manner

[stark elm]

The line is blurrier than you make it out to be, the way the Z axis works in Vive is very close to the way V Rising does it

[opal coral]

Aiming laser helped me so little I just turned mine off lol

[stark elm]

Even if the engine "uses" z axis hitboxes for hit calculations, it still "tricks" the Z axis in a specific arbitrary manner because you can't aim up or down

[grim lava]

my is on but i basically dont use

[dusty forge]

I know its not the topic exactly, but aiming balloons on land too would be really really helpful. If someone moves to a higher plane where they cannot be hit, the balloon could grey out or go transparent.

[stark elm]

For all intents and purposes, Vive is League with momentum-based movement and a "Z axis" bolted on

[grim lava]

explain what you say arbitrary? did you ever got shot from the ground when you have max height?

i never seen this happen

[stark elm]

It's arbitrary because what determines your ability to interact with someone's position relative to yours vertically is a set of custom parameters designed for the game that evaluates your ability to interact with those parameter instead of the actual Z axis

[opal coral]

If you use ground circles it can help. They are a decent indicator. Alot of it comes down to experience though as you get used to the game

[stark elm]

In a 360° shooter, your ability to interact with verticality is directly translated from your ability to do so

Because you can aim up and down, and enemies can go up and down

[dusty forge]

If someone were aiming at me here, should they aim for the glowing red dot?

[grim lava]

you just said the most random stuff ever, the game is clear when you cant hit the ground circle big or the character is closer to the camera (bigger than you) you cant hit the game has a set of rules that everybody apply this is clear a (you isssue)

[stark elm]

In Vive, enemies can go up and down, but you can't aim up and down; thus you have to aim at enemies below and above using an arbitrary mechanic which no other skills outside of Vive trains you for

You can't translate any outside skills into Vive vertical combat, it's its own unintuitive mechanic

[stark elm]

That's my fucking point

Even if the game is "clear", it's still a set of arbitrary rules that aren't intuitive to someone coming in

[grim lava]

is not abritary, just to you know Arbitrary means something is chosen or decided without a clear reason, logic, or system

there is a system being used

isometric and clear rules

you just didn't understood

[stark elm]

It's like showing a rock to a geologist and them going "oh it's clear that this is magnesium quartz because of the way it is"

[grim lava]

dude you play the game what 8 hours a day 7 days week and you cant understand the mechacics ?

[grim lava]

what isnt clear here?

@stark elm

[stark elm]

My ability to understand a game's mechanics is not mutually exclusive to my ability to criticize it from an outsider's perspective

I don't have problems with Shrike for instance, but I can agree she's a problematic barrier of entry to the game

[grim lava]

it is.

[stark elm]

...No?

Bait used to be believable

[grim lava]

Without understanding how something works, you have no basis to propose a solution or criticize it.

Without understanding how something works, you can’t identify the root of a problem or how different parts interact. This makes any proposed solution likely to be ineffective or misguided. Similarly, criticism without knowledge is superficial and may be based on false assumptions. Informed judgment requires insight into the system, its goals, and constraints. In short, understanding is the foundation for both meaningful solutions and credible criticism.

[opal coral]

Id Aim for the center of the ground circle and if they're close enough to the ground they'll get hit. The height and hit ability is pretty ambiguous though

[stark elm]

I don't understand how electricital wiring works, but it doesn't stop me from figuring something is wrong when my power goes out

[opal coral]

For new players I can see it being an issue though. I guess the red dot is where I'd be aiming

[grim lava]

so if i turn off a switch means that is broke on the pwoer relay ?

stop dude is completly inlogical

[stark elm]

You're getting stuck on semantics instead of the metaphor

[grim lava]

no you are trying to justify lack of knowladge

if you dont understand you cant critisize correctly

read @stark elm Without understanding how something works, you can’t identify the root of a problem or how different parts interact. This makes any proposed solution likely to be ineffective or misguided. Similarly, criticism without knowledge is superficial and may be based on false assumptions. Informed judgment requires insight into the system, its goals, and constraints. In short, understanding is the foundation for both meaningful solutions and credible criticism.

@Bunny 할아버지
If someone were aiming at me here, should they aim for the glowing red dot?

[stark elm]

I can fucking read, don't patronize me kid

[grim lava]

so read and calm down kid

[opal coral]

Chill lol

[grim lava]

haha dude is angry

[opal coral]

I had blocked him already

[stark elm]

If we gatekeep criticism of the game to 100+ hours players, we won't get anywhere productive

TC takes opinions and feedback from all its playerbase

[grim lava]

i was explained 100 times already that aim is not even a problem much less the topic

[dusty forge]

I might be anomalously stupid, but I still dont quite get it and I hit gm in ob lol I think this is almost certainly confusing for new players. I think less is more when it comes to verticality. It would just be clearer all the time.

[stark elm]

Otherwise they wouldn't even acknowledge the fact that Shrike is a pain point in lower skill brackets

[grim lava]

is different from aiming

[stark elm]

Likewise, even with my hundred hours, I'm still not incapable of acknowledging that an issue can and is a pain point for different skill brackets

[grim lava]

totally other topic

[stark elm]

It's the same topic when the point is gatekeeping feedback by hours played

[grim lava]

no

you dont need to have 100+ hours to understand that isometric view affects aim

the any person learns this in game and ajust

[stark elm]

And the way the game handles it and presents it is a pain point that many have highlighted

"Just learn the game bro" is reductive rhetoric when we could be improving the game's readability without being exclusionary

[grim lava]

ok.. back to the topic freedom of movement vs moba movement plz

[dusty forge]

lol sorry i got the thread hung up on aiming but I think they are intrinsically related and one of the major reasons I dont want more vertical movement. But yeah, also I want walls to actually function like walls most of the time so that positioning and sightlines are really important.

[wet idol]

I think the game is best when it has a lot of varied playstyles some are better on land and others in air, “MOBA” style characters that are less mobile usually have good tools while movement characters are usually better on land, I think that brall may need some slight trimming of one or two tools to bring him in line but I think of games like smash bros where certain characters will play a different game than other characters (Ken, Steve, Terry, Ness) I think it’s fun when characters vary

Like void being a immobile character but having strong tools is really interesting and causes him to have a unique relationship with items. Personally I play Jin and mostly play him for his movement. I think there should be a standard for movement and wukong def shouldn’t have the level of power he has especially with vertical movement

As for mobility in general even in league there’s a lot of difference in mobility like think Akali vs twisted fate, still a common fight but their tools differ a lot and it can still feel quite fair, I think though with an emphasis on fighting a lot more in BR it can be a bit more easy to feel like certain characters aren’t keeping up, I think this is better addressed with items and powers rather than just nerfing characters (which is good in some cases) it’s good for characters to have unique strengths and weaknesses, sometimes with more mobility you can introduce more interesting weaknesses

[dusty forge]

Creating different and novel gameplay between characters while making sure everyone is playing the same game is a difficult balance to strike. Smash Bros is a great example because it often fails at this. Steve is a great example and I still remember when Bayonetta was added to Sm4sh and thinking, "she's just not even playing smash bros..." On the other hand, My fav fighter is GGST which is a totally whacky game. At the end of the day, the devs (with community feedback) have to draw a line about what kind of variety is acceptable and fun and what isn't.

[cosmic tartan]

it really is just rocket high tops

because its not even just "mobility"

rocket high tops benefitted a specific type of mobility

[opal coral]

Anyone with a low CD dash benefits from that item

[cosmic tartan]

the example i use is shrike, because you can get insane distance on her dash which is literally irrelevant at this point because rocket high tops + glider feathering makes every dash in the game go 10 miles

i feel like talking about wukong and tetra in the same sentence is just wrong on so many levels

tetra is just really not that mobile outside of the verticality

especially in a fight

i actually like tetras design because they managed to make a character that can keep up with the pace of other hunters outside of combat while having less mobility in combat

playing with extremely low mobility characters on your team is often just straight up unfun with the increase in the map size

wukong is problematic because he combines the most powerful dunk in the game, an extremely large and spammable self shield, vertical mobility, horizontal mobility, and multiple skill that are either iframes or effectively iframes

giving a character too many mobility tools just makes them straight up unfun to play against

[wet idol]

I agree high tops def was a huge buff to multi dash characters especially, I think it would be interesting to see if they could find ways to maybe make more boots that can help out more immobile hunters I think they could hoenstly buff the red boots a bit, maybe make it so when it when you pull out glider it uses a bit of heat to make it dash? So you can kind of use it? It might buff dash gliding a bit more but maybe it’s got a threshold where you have to hold it a bit longer to get the dash since multi dash hunters usually like to just tap glide to extend dashes?

[cosmic tartan]

just remove high tops\

to start with

then tone down cdr significantly

and grapple

from there u can see how the game actually feels to play and make further changes

because my main question is how much changed because of hightops and how much changed because of the map itself

[hard night]

Or give high tops a cooldown to when they can affect a dash

So you have to pick and choose

But tbh that sounds like it would feel like shit lol

[cosmic tartan]

i just dont like them

they feel like shit

gameplay wise

trying to do cool plays with big ultis feels like shit bc everyone can dash 7 miles away instantly

[hard night]

I like em on ghost bc they make my dash feel like old dash + jump

It's really revitalized my old playstyle on him

[cosmic tartan]

i mean it got removed for a reason

[hard night]

But also everyone has them so....

I think it was removed bc it was unintuitive not strong. Ghost became much stronger with the new short air dash

I yearn for the days where ghost had to think about his nades

Now it's just perma-dash kiting bs and I hate the playstyle

I love kiting but not perma dash

[cosmic tartan]

yeah

kiting out and hitting a clutch nade on ghost used to feel so good

[wet idol]

I think tetra is fine partially because her dash feels more like a damaging ability and most of her mobility comes from dashing using charge lmb and her wall which is usually best with a zeph or some other movement supplement, maybe she hasn’t been out long enough but she also feels a bit chill maybe just traumatized from wu lol

[grim lava]

i feel tetra is ok, after dunking changes. but well i still think that any character with dunk skill rules

at least on this map config

[cosmic tartan]

yeah and her charge lmb requires her to CHARGE it

ulike most other impulses

[delicate zodiac]

Most impulses require a charge... unless they are a dash, which isn't really related to this.

[wet idol]

Is there any that don’t? Brall rmb, Jin lmb, tetra lmb, zeph lmb, even Wu lmb and dash require it

[cosmic tartan]

wu lmb is a lot faster

than the others

[wet idol]

His def has the shortest charge, it’s funny I was thinking how they nerfed Jin’s lmb charge but he has one of the longest charges and also has the shortest range (im just a salty Jin player)

Considering they nerfed oaths so bad I’m surprised it stayed considering he has dash rests on trees

[delicate zodiac]

I believe his lmb needed a nerf but it was way too much.