Mana is the most fun mechanic ever!

[sacred sequoia]

Every single day of my existence on Earth I have wished for a mechanic that makes me unable to continue using my abilities during combat. Thankfully with the mana changes, I can finally live out my reality of being unable to play the game.

Why play Kingpin when I could play literally anything else that doesn't have to interact with the new mana system? Because mana is fun.

[ocean jackal]

I think having mana makes it easier to nerf/buff stuff rather than just making a cooldown ridiculous long and making mana items have more of a use. rather then just seeing cdr everywhere and giving another use for food for mana. Finding ways to get mana back makes using the ability faster than the trade off of no mana and a crazy CD timer.

tldr: its either way longer cd's, or shorter cd's with mana management

[fathom moat]

i have never seen spy be this consistanely tilted before LOL

[fleet seal]

I don't hate the mana changes but holy do some hunters blow because of it. I know KP is one that really sucks cause of the change but if they adjust the mana costs it'll help a lot

And like iTk said the tradeoff do make sense

[half sluice]

As someone that does mostly kp (not pretending to be high level, but I do okay), I really haven't felt the mana pinch much. Less so since the overhaul really. Maybe like... Twice? But then it's just wait three seconds and take a breath. Don't play with mana item either. Also not tech, so maybe the crunch comes the high ability spam allowed by those builds?

[shut spear]

The only hunter who is actually negativity effected by the mana system is kp imo, which literally all they have to do is lower his mana costs then he would be fine.

But if you spam abilities without reason you should just run out of mana. That simply makes sense.

Imo they gotta increase the mana cost of a lot of hunters, then lower the mana cost of kp. For the purpose of making every hunter actually interact with the mana system. Without going oom after like just 2 ability uses.

I will also say yall kp players are overreacting quite a bit tbh. I do think they should lower the mana cost but bro... it ain't that bad.

[stoic rampart]

No for Beebo mana is an issue too but not for the same reasons. KP has to burst out his combo while Beebo constantly spams it to keep up in fights/mobility. Early and lategame is heavily effected by it. Endgame can be circumvented by going a double mana item but early game without the healing/mana refilling the mobs drop you're cooked

[sacred sequoia]

it's not just mana that that patch changed. he has less cdr, mana, and dash haste, no matter what you build, compared to the previous patch where they said in an interview "kp is in a fine place. we don't have any plans on changing him for a long time"

it was never just mana

mana made the problem even worse

go try and kite brall and tell me you don't go oom or run out of mana now

please

I insist

go ahead

waiting on the clip

and people wonder why I'm fucking mad

ppl sitting here saying it's not that bad riding tc doing tricks all over it

tired of sitting here saying why you made the character unfun for me and people saying "he's not that bad"

it's not about him being good or bad holy fuck

kiting was fun

kiting and dodging abilities

now you can't fucking do that

simple

goddamn

I'm tired of not being heard and getting no response

happy? that's the real fucking answer

I had so much fun playing kp before when he was in a perfectly fine state (after being nerfed 2-3 times he was still fine) then the mana changes took the fun out of him out of nowhere. just nerf his dashes again, fuck it

not like I'm gonna have fun playing him anyway

like why lie and say he wasn't gonna be touched then ruin him

I've never been so fucking pissed off by any patch in any game in my life

it's like nobody tested the character

anyone with eyeballs can see that 100 mana is less than his ENTIRE KIT

what the fuck does ability haste or dash haste matter when you can only cast each spell once?

someone answer this question^^^

no go ahead

I insist

waiting

wow look at who left the thread

that's crazy! couldn't have seen that coming!

I tried approaching this in a much more subtle way, and clearly nobody fucking listened

[fathom moat]

Wait kp has such a small mana pool that u physically cannot cast all ur abilities at once?

[sacred sequoia]

no you can cast them once each

making it impossible to kite with shift + lmb

because you have no mana to cast dash even if it comes off of cd

"less than entire kit" is technically true, but it's his mana at level 1

[abstract cairn]

Some hunters need to build a mana items to play extended fights, this is not a KP specific issue. Not sure why you are crashing out like that, the fix seems pretty obvious: build a mana item.

[fleet seal]

A hunter should never be tied down to building a mana item to have basic functionality. Spy's point is that he's forced to build a mana item to do literally do anything. I've played a fair bit of joule and she was also pretty impacted by the recent changes (on top of the nerfs ) but I can still somewhat function without a mana item. Not like before but it's still playable. Shiv can completely ignore building one and still function fine. Whether or not TC thinks it should be optimal for Kp to build mana is their choice but the fact is that Kp is quite literally forced to build it or he can't play which is bad imo. There should be tradeoffs

[sacred sequoia]

you didn't read a goddamn word

[shut spear]

Tbh cdr was broken and the nerf they gave it makes sense.

[shut spear]

Sometimes it deadass feels like tc just doesnt play the character before they change it. It feels like that with kp to you(a kp player). And to us Hudson players it feels like that when they increased his dash cd, aince it made him a lot worse even if the cd increase was very small.
Sometimes it really feels like they just don't play the hunter before they change them.

@sacred sequoia question, do you think if they made empowered shots give mana back it'd help at all?
Or what if just hitting any of his abilities he got some mana back.

Would this help kp at all/help him enough?

[dawn wadi]

I have a great idea. The best way I can think of to keep people playing Supervive is to stop stopping people from playig Supervive while they're already playing Supervive.

Abilities are the most significant way people interact with the game. Unlockable at start? Ok fine. Early fights take a bit of planning. Why there is ANY mechanic in this game that can take abilities away is baffling

[shut spear]

Cdr would then become absolutely disgusting without mana to gold it back. Even if it doesn't effect dash cdr would still be broken.

It'd there to limit hight ability per minute hunters(like kp). It's just that in kp's case when they lowered his overall mana they then didn't lower his abilities mana cost to make it fair.

[dawn wadi]

I'm not saying there wouldn't be rebalancing of CDR or cooldowns generally required to compensate if mana was removed altogether. It's just that if they got the rebalancing right, it would remove the scenario where I get locked out abilities that aren't on cooldown. Locked out of my kit

[shut spear]

There are mana many reasons why mana kinda just needs to exist.

Literally anything that let's you spam abilities would be broken without mana. Any hunter with low cds would be broken without mana.

I honestly don't like people just being like "mana shouldn't be a thing" or "mana bad". When ignoring all of the reasons mana is a thing and why it has to be a thing.

[dawn wadi]

I play Felix, so the amount of success and fun I have is directly proportional to how hard I commit. Worst feeling to run out of mana when playing the way I'm supposed to

[shut spear]

Scenarios like this means you didn't manage mana well. Not that mana is bad. Cus it is a resource to be managed and when not managed well then you are fucked. If managed well those times you're locked out of abilities just don't exist.

[shut spear]

I play felix as one of my secondary hunters, and the only times I'll run out of mana on him is of I spammed abilities without getting a kill. And even then in cases like that I'd normally nit run out of mana.

And this is without a mana item.

[molten hound]

you cannot just mindlessly slam your keyboard on abilities

gotta space it out

I cannot speak for KP, since I couldn't care less about playin that, but felix does kind of want to faceroll his keyboard, at least when it comes to feel but you gotta play more of a flanking mindset

play slowly

wait and bait out abilties

and then smash em

[dawn wadi]

Managing mana PROPERLY feels bad. That's why I'm against it. Doing the RIGHT thing and playing 'well' actually feels worse, and is less fun. Build for mana? Be cautious? Play slow? None of these things feel good on Felix in particular. All I want is to dive and either kill or be killed. Exposing yourself to damage more than any other hunter is wont to do.

[molten hound]

look im just going to say it, its a mindset diff. I have zero issues where felix is at mana wise

if I run out of mana I go "ah im spamming too much"

and besides, felix wants to go crazy, the feel of the character... BUT he plays better waiting for the flank and being cautious

[dawn wadi]

It doesn't happen too often that I go oom. It just sucks every time

[molten hound]

sure but how big of a deal is it really?

you messed up and overextended, that should feel bad

mobility creep is already an issue in the game as it stands

felix functions on a different level than most of the hunter list, and you gotta respect that

if you dont play right you will be caught out

[abstract cairn]

You only play arena, game is balanced around trios, your opinion on this topic is worthless. If you play joule in trios you build mana blade every game. Joule does not function in trios if you cant use more than one rotation of spells, there are times where you have to run away/chase people or fight are extended because neither side is able to get an advantage.

[quasi badge]

Felix doesn't really run out of mana unless you're in the unfortunate position of never finishing kills

I was a big hater of the mana changes for Felix but tbh even going double blade they don't change much as long as you're actually killing people. It is a direct nerf to hybrid/tank though, who have harder times finishing kills, which, did those really need nerfed?

but anyways yeah mana changes didn't impact felix too much, maybe in scrims

[quasi badge]

i would argue mana being a requirement rather than an option is pretty bad for build variety, on any hunter

[abstract cairn]

then mana items need to be removed completly and the game needs to be balanced around it

like half the hunters in the game need a mana item

[quasi badge]

Talking about mana items specifically when I say "requirement" but right now most of the roster is pretty indifferent from the mana changes. If half the roster needs mana items, they're just spamming too much and/or not finishing kills

While I don't agree with crashing out about it, KP just got royally fucked with mana and is now pigeonholed into bad build variety

[fleet seal]

I've played br it's just not my main gamemode since I like the dynamic of arena. That being said you completely disregarded what I said about joule. I only said "it's somewhat playable". Building mana is optimal rn though.

[quasi badge]

Poke characters are fine with it because they don't have to commit much and they have time to breathe with their mana regen, just sit there for 4 seconds and stop spamming poke. This is a good portion of the roster. The melee characters Brall and Jin have either mana regen baked into their kit to make up for their committal nature, or just mobility that doesn't require mana at all (Jin). The other committal melee character, Felix, is primarily building double blade and/or playing RMB poke, so he has an easier time securing kills than KP and/or doesn't have to commit everything into a kill.

KP has to commit everything and builds hybrid primarily, so:

• He's not getting high knocks for mana resets because of his lack of damage
• KP is a very cooldown-based hunter. He's balanced around his long cooldowns, so traditionally he wants to build tech items.
• Tech items and Quickblade are worthless on him without a mana item since he needs the mana to cast anyways

This leaves KP in a situation where he's forced to build one tech item and one mana item with very little consideration outside of that

[light burrow]

we def need an equipment rework asap, becau rn, the game would be better without the current one

scaling cd per level

no omnivamp because of supports and heal on knock

[quasi badge]

I think a major problem with the mana changes is that nearly all hunters were treated equally without any consideration into their unique circumstances. All hunters have the exact same mana stats to my knowledge (100 Mana, +5 per level, waiting 4 seconds to regen mana), which is not okay when some hunters simply do not have the breathing room to work with that.

I believe the only balancing they did was touching a couple of the characters with innate mana regen which is still very surface level to the problem

[quasi badge]

I don't know if I agree with the removal of Omnivamp and scaling CDR but I do agree that the equipment system is very half-baked and forgot everything TC set out to do with it

I wish they still had the patch notes channel in this server

shoutout to LMB/ability/R amplification stats

[shut spear]

I disagree with this cus it would require a healer. We should not be forced to go a healer just to even play some hunters.

I have always wanted an item system rework. Cus the current one imo is just kinds bland and leaves little room for "theory crafting". It doesn't need to add a lotnof depth cus that's kinds what powers do but it should honestly be more in depth.

[light burrow]

Most hunters that need omnivamp either can kill ppl quickly (jin), have omni vamp on their kits (Hudson) or have heal on knock in the base design (Brall and Shiv)

currently it's either :

• I don't care about mana

• I regen way too much because of last stand

• I have close to no CD on my abilites

• Nobody can chase me because i have no cd on my dashes

[quasi badge]

last stand can go to hell

that much i agree

[light burrow]

Brall in ranked :

• Regen way too much

• No mana issue

• way too much mobility

KP in ranked :

• Mana is an issue

• Long cd

• low mobility compared to most meta hunters

• low range

• No valuable regen except vive infusor

gg i guess

[quasi badge]

vamp is also just a very fun fantasy to play with

and I like it being an option

though I wish Felix wasn't building 2 vamp blades as meta, let me build a helmet TC please

[shut spear]

Hudson does not heal enough without omnivamp items. Shiv would also just get deleted without it when she ults a lot of the time.

Honestly shiv prob has enough movement but it'd make healers way more required than they are now. And I feel like you'd then kinda be forced to run a healer which imo would be really really bad.

Hudson would literally need a healer if omnivamp was taken out. Or his base omnivamp would need ro be massively buffed.

[west wave]

that character has like 7 dashes who the hell is kiting that

I'm neutral on this. I think mana is healthy to have and the rough spots just need to be smoothed over. If all the characters who didn't turn out well from the changes just miraculously have their mana issues fixed then mana powers and mana item options have no reason to be taken. And if we're being 100% honest kingpin mains complaining about systemic issues they've had for a little while being the primary reason amplifier got multiple huge nerfs and stealth got multiple huge nerfs is ironic as hell

KP also isn't designed to fly around the map and kite people anyways. He's designed around his pick potential where landing hook is a guaranteed kill

[molten hound]

TC has to just get more on the balancing train, as it currently stands there are far too many issues that have been going on for too long

But I’m wondering if the previous changes they are making will be addressing this

The armory stuff

[shut spear]

Tbh I build hybrid on felix. Imo it's pretty strong late game. Weaker early game tho.

[quasi badge]

It's a hard balance that needs to be made. I would say a lot of hunters' mana is in a good spot where it's useful in some situations, but not required. The difference is, Kingpin is very very tied to Tech/Mana right now, and that just isn't good. No character should be required to build mana to be in a usable state, especially because the other items' primary stats (CDR/speed/vamp) have a fantasy to them that's exciting to play around. I don't think anyone is building mana because they want to, I think they're building it either because they have to, or because there's no better option. I would say spam casting would be a cool reason to want to build mana, but I think CDR exists for that

I do agree that KP wasn't designed to fly around the map though, that wasn't a healthy design direction for him. I prefer Kingpin to be a tanky bruiser with good pick potential, not a ranged Jin. But he should have the option to pick other things than Tech/Mana every game

[shut spear]

I do honestly think the main issue with the game rn is balancing. They could improve on the item system and probably some other stuff, they could also add new systems if they want to. But I don't think any of that is necessarily needed.

Imo they just really gotta balance their game. It's been pretty unbalanced for months, trios is simply less balanced than squads, but that doesn't mean squads was balanced.

[quasi badge]

I think Felix needs more than balancing, maybe a small update

I wouldn't say like, a rework

but definitely giving him more to do

[molten hound]

I think the only reason would be the changes they are making in the background, the changes from squads and duos to trios, the armory stuff they mentioned… the changes they are making are large so to have to rebalance everything constantly is a huge chore BUT then at the same time we have a plethora of issues that are staying unresolved.

It’s a tough situation but

[quasi badge]

Like celeste got updated over the past few months with some new stuff like shift level 4, RMB changing based on close/long range, being able to stop her wall

[molten hound]

Give Felix a fire wall that works like the opposite of Celeste’s , where it traps people trying to run away!!!

Goated character

[quasi badge]

[molten hound]

Heck it, if half the characters are broken let’s just make everyone cracked

!!!

[quasi badge]

Hybrid Felix isn't bad, it's just not as good as double blade

I do enjoy a Greed or Ambrush game from time to time

[molten hound]

Nah but in all seriousness yeah the balancing is yikes right now

I hate seeing myth, oath, brall and Jin

I see them and go “ah this shit again”

KP is a 50/50, I’m only scared of that on demand stun/spike

Otherwise he’s useless

[west wave]

the problem is that if there is no characters with mana problems the mana items become completely useless

if every character can sustain an entire fight without running out of mana then mana options become entirely irrelevant

[quasi badge]

Yes but should kingpin go OOM after one combo with little options to regenerate it back besides "pray to god you can last hit the kill before the rest of the enemy team shreds you" because he's forced to build the same thing every game with very little diversity or consideration?

I'd argue there's a limit

[west wave]

of course not but this is the exact reason mana items exist

[quasi badge]

The question I'm ultimately asking is, is that a good mana economy? Kingpin's not running OOM because he's spamming without a mana item, he's running OOM for playing the character the way he's designed to be played without a mana item

Running OOM should be a punishment for spamming, not a punishment for hitting your rotation

[west wave]

I mean yes? If you aren't building a mana item on a character that clearly has mana issues that has more to do with the player than it does the character

I think kp having to build a mana item is a good thing and of course he feels bad to play right now but I'd rather they fix him a different way than "ok all his spells cost x% less mana now" and then he just starts building 2 haste items

[quasi badge]

That's.. how that's supposed to work? for every hunter?

if you build 2 haste items you'll now speedrun your mana pool because you're spamming

[west wave]

Not really lol

[dry venture]

I'd like to refer to when OG Zeph was nerfed into the ground, his RMB cost smth like 20% of his mana pool, and healed for an absolutely pathetic amount and even double mana items was not enough to make him functional.
I'd also like to point out that he was fixed by, in part, adjusting his mana costs and the value you got from casting.

[west wave]

Ok but this is completely different

[dry venture]

No it sounds like it's pretty similar

It sounds a lot like "you go OOM after doing what your character is meant to do for all of 3 seconds".

[west wave]

"Building 2 mana items not being enough help plz" is not even remotely similar to "I don't want to build even 1 mana item"

[dry venture]

Zeph had to build 1 mana item previously.

And it sounds a lot like KP has to build at least one now.

[west wave]

yes and it was good?

[dry venture]

No

[west wave]

yes

[dry venture]

It was shit

For a game that loves to tout sandbox and player choice and depth and such, there's a hilariously large number of cases where a hunter "has" to build a specific item to function at a base level.

[west wave]

if no characters need to build mana because they dont have mana issues what is the point in there being a mana item in the first place

enlighten me

[abstract cairn]

Mana is mandatory on Zeph, KP, Ghost and Joule atm, other hunters also can build mana

[dry venture]

Mandatory why

Why do they have to build mana

[west wave]

because it's a design concept

[quasi badge]

mana is supposed to be supplemental to playstyles? not required to use more than 1 rotation?

[west wave]

according to what

again

[dry venture]

And it's healthy design to no longer be able to play your character after doing your job for a few seconds?

[west wave]

why would i build mana if i dont need the mana

[abstract cairn]

it is not mandatory, but the meta if you play against humans and not bots. Ofc you can play full tank myth

[quasi badge]

no Felix is building Mana right now

[west wave]

yes if you dont build mana on a character that needs mana you should have mana issues? lol

[dry venture]

Why do they need to have mana issues without a mana item

Why do they have to build that to function as a character

Why are mana items suddenly a band-aid for design on some of the characters

[west wave]

because they need to have some for of limiting factor that punishes them?

[dry venture]

Why punish only them

[quasi badge]

You build mana to support playing characters in a certain way, if you want to play ghost and spam Q you'll probably need a mana item, but you don't need it to play ghost normally

[dry venture]

Why do I not get punished nearly as hard on Void when I build double tech and no mana and just spam nonstop

[west wave]

why do i need build double blades on saros why can't I just build full hp items and still do a lot of damage? why do i have to be punished

[dry venture]

Why wouldn't you be punished for spamming

Isn't that what mana is supposed to prevent?

I'm told that's what mana is supposed to prevent.

The problem isn't that mana punishes some characters

It's that mana is, was, and probably always will be completely irrelevant for some characters while it borderline disables others

Why is there a core mechanic that's supposed to limit things but then characters that just ignore it?

[west wave]

this is like playing oriana in league building 0 mana items taking 0 mana runes and then complaining that you have mana issues

[dry venture]

no

[west wave]

yes

[dry venture]

no, because you'll invariably fight someone that uses mana, does the same, and has a perfect mana economy because riot said so

[west wave]

the point of building mana is to give you more rotations of spells in a fight before you run out

[celest bramble]

OP on some insane copium because he has 0 awareness on his mana management lol

[celest bramble]

you can now even get mana back from kills and people still complain about mana. Insane

[quasi badge]

League's mage itemization is way more varied than Supervive's full equipment system

there is still diversity to be had there (even if mage itemization in League isn't good, it's still better than Supervive)

[dry venture]

mana has always been a binary.
you either build mana items and outright ignore the system or don't and get your hunter disabled after 1-2 rotations and thus probably die to people that are ignoring the system.

that is the historic problem with mana.

key words being "outright ignore the system" btw

in case that needs further emphasis the problem is historically "outright ignore the system" not "build mana items"

[quasi badge]

Damn why is Saros refunded mana for hitting his shots? They should remove that because people should go OOM if they're not building mana items

[west wave]

nah OP is right kp is in a bit of weird spot right now but I still believe instead of just fixing mana in kit it should be a conscious choice in needing to build mana to get more rotations of spells in a fight rather than everyone just building haste items

[quasi badge]

Yes, the conscious choice in building mana should be if you want to spam abilities carefree

Not building mana because you have to

[west wave]

??

[dry venture]

"have to" vs. "want to"

[west wave]

if no characters have a need to build mana everyone will just build haste

[dry venture]

Throwback to OG Zeph having to build mana items so he can cast more than 3 abilities in a row.

[quasi badge]

I want to play Q spam Ghost and beam spam people for 15 seconds straight nonstop

So I'm going to build mana

vs.

[west wave]

what is og zeph are we refering to him before this mana rework or what

[quasi badge]

I have to build it to play this character

[dry venture]

early 2023

[west wave]

because zeph needed to build mana prior to the mana rework and that was healthy

[dry venture]

He released, got nerfed, and was irrelevant-border-trolling for 6 months because he went OOM after 3-4 casts.

[west wave]

and you said he did this while building multiple mana items

so again this isn't comparable

[quasi badge]

throwback to this btw

[dry venture]

you're missing the "had to" vs "wanted to"

[west wave]

because it's not that he wasn't choosing to build mana he was just gutted

[dry venture]

He didn't get a choice

[west wave]

ok

again

why do i have to build ap to do damage

[dry venture]

?

[west wave]

i want to build hp and do damage

fix it

[quasi badge]

"want to"

[west wave]

so this only applies to the stats you want it to apply to or what

[quasi badge]

????

[west wave]

i HAVE to build ap to build damage just like some characters should HAVE to build mana to get multiple rotations of spells

[dry venture]

and we're already going in circles

we're going in circles on the same things that every previous mana discussion since forever has gone in circles about

[quasi badge]

Saros sure as hell isn't building mana

Felix isn't

Celeste isn't

[west wave]

saros was intentionally designed to not build mana that's the point and even at that his mana refund should be reduced

[quasi badge]

Void isn't

[dry venture]

saros was intentionally designed to not build mana
congratulations you found the problem

some characters don't have to build mana

and they get to largely ignore the mechanic

[west wave]

ok?

and what is the problem with that lol

[dry venture]

core system btw

[west wave]

saros doesn't get a hook that goes through walls and guarantees a kill that's affected by ability haste

[quasi badge]

that's not a core system

[west wave]

its a design choice

[quasi badge]

so that's why he doesn't get that

[west wave]

it has to be limited in some way

either mana

or cooldown

[quasi badge]

It shouldn't be "I run out of mana because I played right" it should be "I run out of mana because I played wrong" or "I played this in this specific way that makes me run OOM"

Mana is a limiter

[west wave]

yes it shouldnt be "i run out of mana if i play right" and it wouldn't be if they built the item that gave them mana lol

[west wave]

correct and it should be harsher on some characters more than others

[quasi badge]

No character should be required to build it, it should be supplemental to how you play

Should there be a character with 100s CDs on RMB and Q so you have to build CDR to play them?

[west wave]

there are champs who need their mana economy tuned down from this mana rework

like saros who already has in kit ways to restore mana and jin/brall who fly around the map and use next to none

[west wave]

yes they should

[quasi badge]

I'm like 99% sure this is ragebait now

I should've seen it sooner

[west wave]

whatever you think

i think so too except with u guys lol

[quasi badge]

Are you saying there should be a 100s CDs character who has to build CDR to be played at all?

answer me that if that's a good design that supports build variety

you get to play the game if you build CDR on them, but you don't get to if you build anything else

[west wave]

the only people who don't think certain character should have sharper mana constraints than others or be required to build mana are, in my experience, mostly just people who want to throw out spells and not be punished for missing

[abstract cairn]

they are arguing from a standpoint of feelings and you are trying to argue with logic. You will never convince them of your viewpoint.

[quasi badge]

this isn't answering my question

It's a yes or no if that's a good design

[west wave]

it entirely depends on the impact of said spell

lol

if they have no mana issues and are free to build haste then yes their cooldowns should be longer

[quasi badge]

Would you say that design is a healthy, fun design if it 100% guaranteed an instant kill? You only get to play the game when you one shot someone and do nothing else for 50s

[quiet sonnet]

Im pretty sure you guys are just arguing from based on different design standpoints lol, what im getting from Link’s pov is that there should be one optimal build, and Anicmatics pov is that there should be build diversity where there’s multiple optimal builds

[west wave]

yes if that's how the character is designed and balance it would be healthy

[quasi badge]

lol

[west wave]

if you dont enjoy that design then feel free to not play the character? like idk what else to tell you

[quasi badge]

Yeah probably, I'm going to step away from this convo because it's going nowhere

[west wave]

do you think soraka w or cassiopeia e would have such short cooldowns if they weren't heavily restricted by resources like mana and health?

[quasi badge]

Apologies for flooding this thread with ultimately pointless bickering, I will agree to disagree

[west wave]

i will also concede to agreeing to disagreeing

[west wave]

im not really saying there shouldn't be build diversity or that there should 1 single correct build btw but rather that instead of complaining because your character has mana issues and you dont want to build a mana item you should build the item that fixes the issues you're having so in this case mana

like for example prior to the mana rework I was building mind blade on zeph over bubble because it made his mana more comfy and i feel like the "ok im having mana issues so im going to take the more mana heavy item to fix that" choice is completely valid and is a perfectly healthy design

[quiet sonnet]

Im gonna add my take, personally, im leaning towards anicmatic’s take, because I think the point here is: some characters can choose to build mana for more spell rotations, and can choose not to, but some characters(like only KP) are unplayable if they dont build mana, and they are locked onto one specific item.

The point is that players should be able to choose be able to choose different viable builds, and that isnt the case with some characters with mana

Ex: soraka’s w is heavily restricted by health, BUT, can soraka go for a high hp regen build to spam w or a high ap build for bigger heals? Yes she has that choice, and the freedom of choice in SV is much more restricted because there is only 2 items you can build

[west wave]

sorakas base health regens is essentially non existent. you would have to build warmogs which isn't feasible out of aram

which is why landing her q negates the health cost

[light burrow]

what's the issue with a never ending poke that outrange everyone in the game ? Hmmm i'm really wondering...

[quiet sonnet]

And the problem is partially solved because of the characters kit, not because of build

[quiet sonnet]

She definitely can build warmogs in SR, is it the most optimal? Maybe maybe not, but is it viable? Yes, yes it is

[west wave]

A.) you have to land hits on a character
B.) I've already said that there are multiple characters that should have their mana economy reigned in because it's the opposite of kp's where its stoo forgiving under this system

saros is one of them his refund should get toned down

he was also designed right before this system so he already has ways in which he's intended to get mana back (his passive) that are currently irrelevant because of the new system

[quasi badge]

If you have to build the mana item to play the character, and the character has high CDs so you have to build a Tech item, and you have to build specific upgrades because the other options (i.e. Bubble Blade) do nothing for the character, that's "1 single correct build"

[quiet sonnet]

I dont disagree with the current state of mana, but I just feel like some characters needs to be tweaked quite a bit to fit in (KP)

Honestly I feel like the mana system is fine, but there needs to be balance changes to specific hunters

[quasi badge]

yea that's kinda where i'm at for the most part

[west wave]

no it's literally just the design of her kit. if she could just mash w on you she would never use the rest of her kit so they tied her kit together by giving her w an artificial downside

[quasi badge]

I think the system is alright, with some outliers like KP

[quiet sonnet]

Exactly, and KP doesnt have anything in his kit that lets him use his whole kit unless he build mana

[west wave]

this is like saying she can build youmuu's ghost blade
like no you can't it's literally griefing because the item is not intended to be bought on a support budget

[quiet sonnet]

Ok I dont understand why you think building warmogs on soraka is greifing in SR

This is literally u.gg current patch SR

Emerald+

And also im not sure if I like relating SV to league bc battle royal and mobas shouldnt be compared

They are too fundamentally different

[west wave]

yes so instead of just making mana a worthless stat by making all of his mana costs not exist what if they get ready to be shocked buff him in a different way like buffing the refund on landing his hook, lowering some of his cds by a bit etc. And I'm not saying his mana shouldn't be touched at all they could do something like make his dash not cost mana so he can back off while oom but I think it's completely healthy that he should be expected to pick up a mana item or power if you're going to be using his spells more than once or twice a fight considering that landing them is literally a guaranteed kill

[west wave]

because these stats are heavily skewed

if soraka is making it to a 5th or 6th item you're like 40-50 minutes into the game

[quasi badge]

buffing CDs does nothing if he runs out of mana so he can't cast anyways, but if you're not saying his mana shouldn't be touched at all then we agree

I never said to make his mana not matter, I was talking about making it a bit less strangling on him because it's over the edge right now

[west wave]

sitting on giants belt or xrystaline bracer does quite literally nothing for soraka so sure you can pick it up at minute 55 if you have the gold but 99% of games aren't lasting that long and you're already sitting in 4/5 enchanter items anyways

[quasi badge]

probably a good change would be to reduce his mana costs by like 5 each so he has ~25-35 mana after blowing his whole kit in midgame

then at least he gets one more dash option

[west wave]

i have reiterated many times in this thread many many times that i agree kp is in a rough spot

this, however, does not change my opinion that i believe it's healthy for some characters to be expected to build mana items

if kp wants to use his stun 5 times in a fight he should have to buy mana because landing your stun is 9 times out of 10 a guaranteed kill

[quiet sonnet]

Honestly im fine with this, as long as it isn’t impossible to play (not optimally) said character without mana items

[quasi badge]

I think you've only said it once in the beginning and everything else was "Kingpin should only get 1 rotation in a fight without mana items" and "If KP wasn't 100% required to build mana items then mana is useless"

[quasi badge]

yea i don't think anyone was asking for it to not be an expectation, as much as it is "this character is unplayable if you don't and that's not a good thing"

[west wave]

then you didnt really read what i've been typing because i've just been using kp's current mana limitations as an example

i said like 3 different times that zeph building a mana blade as a core item is healthy to which everyone piled on to disagree with

[quiet sonnet]

I dont think everyone disagreed with that

[west wave]

i said that multiple character's current mana economy, including saros, is over the top

[quiet sonnet]

Im fine with zeph having to build mana blade, but I can run no mana blade and am able to play the game

[west wave]

zeph and saros are also my 2 most played characters by a large amount

[quiet sonnet]

I only play zeph

[west wave]

yes you can currently run no mana on him because his mana econ is way too good right now

[quiet sonnet]

Its very much not optimal

But I can

[quasi badge]

you were pretty vehemently against kingpin having any better base mana economy in general

[west wave]

they nerfed his mana costs by a LOT and the high mana regen after 4 seconds of not using mana is very beneficial for him

[quasi badge]

which is what everyone else was arguing for so he wasn't required to build a mana item, rather recommended/expected

so i think my summary is pretty accurate to the case

[west wave]

no i was saying that instead of just making his mana costs basically not exist they should buff him in other ways because there's nothing wrong with a character being expected to build mana

[quasi badge]

where did anyone say they shouldn't exist?

[quiet sonnet]

Lol just arguing without even knowing what the other was arguing for

[quasi badge]

that's my specialty

[west wave]

how else are we buffing kp who struggles heavily with mana right now if not by heavily lowering his mana costs?

[quasi badge]

[quasi badge]

this

this is how

that's enough mana for like 1 dash just so he's not totally deadweight after a combo

[quiet sonnet]

Or idk refund mana on stuns, auto hits or whatever

[quasi badge]

reward hitting spells

that too

[west wave]

so the thing you posted 10 minutes ago after an hour of arguing with me lol

[quasi badge]

tbh that'd just be a good overall change though

[quasi badge]

because nobody said they should be heavily reduced, you just assumed that's what people meant

[quiet sonnet]

Lmfaooo peak internet right here, arguing bc noone thought to clarify what their own points were and misunderstood each other

https://tenor.com/view/happy-cat-silly-cat-happy-cat-smile-gif-11748501437476694103

[quasi badge]

[molten hound]

[quasi badge]

I felt I was clear enough when I said "mana items should be optional/supplemental, not required to play at a basic fundamental level" but maybe I should've clarified better

[west wave]

this is literally my first post

[quiet sonnet]

Pause the argument right here lol, step away yall

[west wave]

also i was replying to the OP who wants to be able to spam his dash and use his whole kit multiple times in a fight and "kite brall" without building a mana item

[molten hound]

The only one who needs to step away is probably spy LOL

[quiet sonnet]

Spy is just clearly tilted bc of how bad a position KP is in rn

[quasi badge]

Nah I got too hotheaded and frustrated and wasn't articulating my sentences well enough

[molten hound]

Getting way to feisty

[quasi badge]

oops

wrong reply

[quiet sonnet]

Lol

[molten hound]

It’s what we do

[quasi badge]

[molten hound]

FIRE FIRE FIRE!!

[quiet sonnet]

Some people just want to watch the world burn

[molten hound]

[quiet sonnet]

No need to get angry bc of someone else’s frustration especially since its clearly understandable frustration :D

[molten hound]

It always confused me that Felix is from New York

Hey, how ya’ doin?

[quasi badge]

I think we should move this chat elsewhere if we're off mana

[molten hound]

Is the entire fire fox population a bunch of New Yorkers?

[quasi badge]

[quiet sonnet]

That is the most random comment

[quiet sonnet]

^

[molten hound]

[dawn wadi]

I would have literally no problem with running out of mana if it just nerfed your abilities by 50% or even 75% instead of making them unusable. The feeling of helplessness when you've run out of mana as Felix in particular is awful.

[sacred sequoia]

Yeah it would help a ton in empowered shots gave mana back

[sacred sequoia]

Except that his shift 4 passive is literally designed for kiting

[west wave]

his shift 4 can reduce his dash cd by a bit but that doesnt mean that kingpin flying around is healthy for the game or that he should be kiting a character like brall otherwise amplifier would have never been nerfed in the first place

[shut spear]

amp wasn't nerfed for situations like kp dash spam tho? it had way way bigger problems for why they nerfed it.

[sacred sequoia]

I don't want him flying around the map lol. I want to be able to have effective mobility IN COMBAT

idgaf how slow he is around the map

Also, amp build was nerfed because of the old double blade shotgun tech, not kp 2 patches ago

[sacred sequoia]

You know before the mana patch, kp would have to disengage from fights to restore mana using brews? This happened almost every fight. I'm not sure how that isn't being gated by mana to some extent. It made kp have downtime in fights where he would have to find a location that he wouldn't get hit by anything to restore mana. I'm not arguing for infinite mana. I'm arguing for some sort of playability outside of building mana

KP had some mana problems that had to be solved by vive brews even when his mana pool was in the 200s

what do you think will happen when its 100

[west wave]

the primary reason, literally written in the patch notes, was kp

[sacred sequoia]

yes but it was because of the shotgun tech

not current itteration kp

[shut spear]

i think you mean cdr not amp, cus amp does still work on dashes.

and getting infinitly poked by a ghost was a lot worse.

idk if you mean his dash spam thing he could do, cus you being unclear rn

[west wave]

im not being unclear at all lol

[west wave]

what do you even mean by this btw the only direct change kingpin has ever gotten since open beta was on feb 5th

[bright basin]

Mana makes kp almost unplayable but the rest of the cast doesn’t really notice it so I think it’s just kp having stupid high mana cost problem not a mana problem

[dawn wadi]

If the mechanic doesn't add or take anything away from most characters, then that's kind of its own problem. Why is a mechanic necessary if all it does is hamstring one or two hunters and does nothing for anyone else?

[wooden prawn]

Crysta goes OOM SOO fast just from dashing around the map it's insane. But double tech is a necessity because her LMB is the most useless in the game.

[open sequoia]

I haven’t had issues on Crysta really, she’s pretty bursty which makes finding the time to regen mana pretty natural, and her passive procs restore mana too so I feel like it’s mostly only happens if I whiff too much, or in pretty extended fights if I don’t get any knocks. Feels like they make sense to me.

And idk why you’d have issues moving around the map and going OOM, the passive regen should take care of that no problem especially with how good her dash momentum is to start with.

Consider using chain jump boots if that’s an sticking point for you, it can let you glide longer so you can get the mana back in an extended dash glide.

[wooden prawn]

I don't necessarily go fully OOM when purely dashing around the map, it's more that when I'm running away or chasing it lowers it over time and then if I'm forced to fight, I'm entering the fight with half my mana pool or less. Then I use my abilities, and if they dash away and don't allow me to proc passive now I'm OOM. As long as she can kite it's fine, but I've had several times during extended chases where my ult comes back up but I don't have enough mana to use it.

[fathom moat]

@sacred sequoia

[sacred sequoia]

this was already live

[light burrow]

yep