Summoning

[warped nebula]

That is the Terraria model. CK didn't go that route.

[jagged lotus]

Early to mid game the focus is still by and large on the summons

[dire horizon]

But I mean it's fine if you enjoy the mage/warlock hybrid that's all fine too, we are just asking for it to function better as a minion build focus

[jagged lotus]

I'm saying it's not a good thing to balance around. If you want lifetime build for getting long lasting minions while you attack with a primary, but they shouldn't also get a damage buff from switching to a dps summon build. You can't have your cake and eat it too

[warped nebula]

If you remove the lifespan buff when you swap then you can't cast and fight yourself because of how long it takes to manage minions.

casting 8-9 minions a minute will give you what 2-3 hits per minute?

that would be miserable

[jagged lotus]

No I'm saying the lifetime minions wouldn't get the damage buff from swapping. Other way around

[warped nebula]

yeah I wouldn't care about that lol.

[jagged lotus]

Essentially make minions retain the stats they had from when first summoned

[warped nebula]

They are after all just support to me

[dire horizon]

They do that on console versions

[warped nebula]

Think of the skill trees like this. Melee and ranged are physical trees but different playstyle. Mage and Warlock are magic trees with different playstyles. Its literally just preference.

Out of the 2 magic playstyles I prefer warlock. Its more fun for me. If it was summoner I would probably prefer mage.

[jagged lotus]

Summons aren't magic damage

[warped nebula]

Right but they support a magic playstyle so I don't get the point?

[dire horizon]

Mage and warlock are pretty similar playstyles in which are confusing to the majority, minions are main source of dmg till grim set for minion based sets, mage your staff is your main source of dmg throughout your entire playthrough, warlock is basically mage with more passive buffs by the endgame, and mage is just mage without buffs ideally here if minions aren't supposed to be dmg sources than the warlock gear should be magic/summoning influenced the entire game to avoid the issue of getting confused as such

[warped nebula]

Here is a thought. Maybe they add Pet/summon trees in the future. That to me makes more sense.

[dire horizon]

Summoning does have a skill tree T-T

Pet trees would be cool but honestly wildwarden would need progression throughout the entire game tbh before we get a pet build functional

[warped nebula]

They could change the name of the current skilltree though. I'm just saying they don't have to abandon there Warlock playstyle. They could add another tree to help those that would prefer a more summoner playstyle.

being a mage type character that can summon minions to support you just seems awesome. and you get to do that in CK.

[dire horizon]

The skill tree would have to change some more and the minion based gear to be more magic/summoning based progression wise as well to truly fit warlock

But it would be hard to have a summoning playstyle exist unless we difference the minions to a different thing entirely, cause anything in the summoning tree would buff warlock to some insane heights atm if there was 2 summoning trees basically XD

Overall main thing is not changing the skill trees rn just the minion based dps, make summons good for dmg and a playstyle, while keeping grim set and magic hybrid the same kinda from my standpoint, only gear set minion based that actually makes warlock a mage hybrid is grim set, the rest play as a summoning set, so it is very misleading to endgame summoning

[jagged lotus]

I think allowing hybrid is fine, I think there should also just be the option for dedicated minion builds as well late game. Heck i'd like more options for hybrid like a warlord type melee summoner hybrid

[jagged lotus]

I'm still for changing the skill trees tbh. I know doodler didn't want to just to make the workload more feasible for the devs but there's a loooot of design issues with how they're laid out right now

Speaking of I'd still like access to the doc just to have a basic overview without having to skip back to an old message

[toxic yoke]

And most definitely not intended

[jagged lotus]

If anything I think lifetime should be the defacto stat for hybrid type builds

[toxic yoke]

As someone who is for tomes having different lifetime values anywhere between 15s-5m, I'm in favor for removing a clearly unintended behavior exploit. Replacing it would be minions that naturally have a long lifespan with less base stats to compensate for the benefit of being able to hybrid class or warlock as you say.

[jagged lotus]

Post the doc bro

Lemme take a gander

[toxic yoke]

I legit haven't opened it since i made it 🤣

Been giga procrastinating playing other games.

Give me like a week to get around to actually doing it, and i'll send it for sure. Also feel free to keep annoying me about it, both so i remember and have another reason to do it.

[jagged lotus]

At this rate I'm gonna finish the one I made first bro

[toxic yoke]

xd

Definitely on me, i've had a few times where i could have done it and then just played minecraft instead

That being said, the doc is basically gunna be #1354589473295302788 message but with some preface and explanation about the why of the changes

[jagged lotus]

I like the idea of lifetime buffs being used for making long lasting minions

@dire horizon Any idea what the upper limit on lifetime bonuses is?

Not the actual timers but the % stat

[toxic yoke]

50% from talent, Hourglass ring at level 19 x2, and I think theres a few armors with some lifespan

[jagged lotus]

I know corrupt warden gives a big chunk

[toxic yoke]

Looks like this is max

50% talent
67% x2 Hourglass ring
31% Witch Doctor legs
29% Corrupt Warden head
23% Grim body
Total: 267% increased

For 220.2 second long lifespan

[jagged lotus]

I see

I think considering that would it not be ideal to keep lifetimes at 15-30s to make those stat bonuses relevant for people that want long lasting minions?

[toxic yoke]

Without the exploit, you could practically only have like one of any of the armors, one ring, and the talent. ~140% increased

Without giving up too much

[jagged lotus]

30 second lifetimes would get to 45 with just longing for this world and a single hourglass ring would get it to a minute without even being fully maxed

Hybrid builds are already going to have a lot of extra time to use their other weapons with the mana cost changes

[toxic yoke]

imo if they don't want to nerf puppet ring at all, i'd actually prefer if hourglass ring was +1 minion count +30% lifespan or something like that, just so theres parity between the two summon rings.

[jagged lotus]

That'd make it uber strong early game

And like, in general lol

[toxic yoke]

is it stronger than puppet ring tho? 🤔

[jagged lotus]

I mean

In terms of straight dps no

But for a hybrid build it'd be good for getting more bang for your buck out of each minion cast

[toxic yoke]

Cause it could start at like +1 minion count +8% lifespan still definitely way stronger than before but again the extra access from minion count makes its value relatively weaker and since lifespan decreases it makes lifespan stronger. Also less higher end lifespan scaling to make the impact of the changes to base lifespan mean more.

[jagged lotus]

I mean, I'm still for a puppet ring nerf rather than powercreeping everything else

[toxic yoke]

Same

[jagged lotus]

There's other minion rings too

[toxic yoke]

is there tho?

🤣

[jagged lotus]

Vicious ring, and there's general mana related rings like glow tulip, crescent moon, and boundary ring

[toxic yoke]

I guess vicious ring kind of exists 😛

[jagged lotus]

The thing with rings is you can take two, makes any ring that adds minion slots have a ton of value that I think makes it hard for anything else to compete

[toxic yoke]

I do have to say... if puppet ring became like +1 minion count +15% minion movespeed, a new ring was added for the +45.6% minion attack speed split from the current puppet ring, with the 3 base minion count. I actually don't know what rings i would use, it would be a tough choice.

[jagged lotus]

Right

I think that's a good thing though

[toxic yoke]

Ya thats my point

[jagged lotus]

Devs have already shown they aren't opposed to nerfs or reworks so personally I think it'd be fine to include puppet ring nerf

[toxic yoke]

||If only they'd feel that way about stormbringer and remove it from the game||

[jagged lotus]

Movespeed would also be nice for melee minions actually

Also I've been thinking

[toxic yoke]

Ya very nice

[jagged lotus]

The meteor offhand affects minions

[toxic yoke]

the % dmg one?

[jagged lotus]

Yea

[toxic yoke]

Isn't detonator just better?

[jagged lotus]

Yea

I'm making a point hold on

Since minions don't benefit from straight player buffs, adding more aoe support style buffs like oracle deck and meteor that affects minions close to you would be cool

Like for example, one that improves crits to allies, or move speed

[toxic yoke]

As much as i love support gameplay i think they should be careful with it.

[jagged lotus]

Yea, wouldn't stick it on any old ring

Could be armor sets or dedicated offhands

Since it also has utility in multiplayer

[toxic yoke]

at any point if being a bot following a damage dealer around becomes better than you actually doing damage or even remotely close i think theres a problem

[jagged lotus]

Could also tie some to procs

Like an aoe proc that activates on a player melee attack for example

[toxic yoke]

Fair but still need to be weary. ie. 20% damage boost to allies seems innocent but if it was multiplicative multiplier then that buff with 5 allies is equal to 1 player worth of damage by itself, that player could also be attacking doing its own thing at the same time.

[jagged lotus]

Damage% isn't multiplicative anymore I thought

[toxic yoke]

It never was afaik, but no. I'm saying if it was.

[jagged lotus]

Besides like status synergy ones

[jagged lotus]

I know marbled meat used to be

[toxic yoke]

Likely because it was from a buff, sometimes those aren't additive.

[jagged lotus]

I could get into a whole side tangent about this but I love the idea of getting a melee summoner hybrid armor ngl

[toxic yoke]

Like %damage against {status affected} enemies is multiplicative

[jagged lotus]

Or heck even a dedicated talent in the summoner or melee tree for it

[jagged lotus]

I mean it'd be kinda trash if it wasn't

[toxic yoke]

Values are low because it is, it easily could be additive with a larger value and be fine.

[jagged lotus]

No point having a burn synergy build with +20% damage that's additive with the rest of your +300% damage perks and accessory bonuses yano?

[jagged lotus]

Yea, I think it's the right place to have multiplicative bonuses though, it's conditional and requires multiple items to work

[toxic yoke]

btw what did you mean by this? Like lifespan food/potion buffs or what?

[toxic yoke]

Agreed, just saying it is a choice and not required to be this way.

[jagged lotus]

Rather than having base minions with super long lifetimes, you take standard minions and buff up their lifetime a bunch with equipment. That does the balancing factor on its own since you're taking lifetime buffs over things like minion count or damage output

[toxic yoke]

I actually argue the opposite

Lifespan should be nerfed so that way the base lifespans are more impactful for the type of minion they are.

[jagged lotus]

Who woulda guessed 😆

[toxic yoke]

Not actually asking for a nerf but if i had to choose thats what i would prefer

[jagged lotus]

Wdym nerf

[toxic yoke]

to the values of lifespan

[jagged lotus]

Like, the base stat or the accessory bonus values?

[toxic yoke]

bonuses

[jagged lotus]

I think what you'd run into is them being mostly useless like they are now cuz the current lifetimes are high enough that it just doesn't do much even though it can get to like 3 minutes

If my minions are already 1m+ why would I take lifetime values that are now lower?

[toxic yoke]

Cause when you have high minion counts with shorter life spans you become a very busy summoner

It is a lot more meaningful than you think

[jagged lotus]

That's kinda the goal tho ain't it? Spending more time summoning when you're using high damage summons

[toxic yoke]

And then also your actual tome choice is a lot more decisive too

[toxic yoke]

Partially yes.

[jagged lotus]

I think if base lifetimes are lower it gives a lot more value to increasing them with stuff like hourglass rings

[warped nebula]

You guys started all this complaining about Warlock being to weak and casts to much and I point out it really isn’t and Lifespan is a QoL if you use it properly and now you guys want to remove the QoL we do have and make the class even more spammy. This thread is useless.

[jagged lotus]

Wdym casts too much

[warped nebula]

There is no coherent thought

[toxic yoke]

I think you're missing the fact that in my head some minions would have high base lifespan and wouldn't need high % lifespan values.

They would be the choice for warlock and/or more passive summoner playstyles

[dire horizon]

Sorry was playing hero seige but I think Idoodler hit the mark

[jagged lotus]

My concern is wouldn't that make performance kinda homogenous? Builds with those minions would just run damage improving stuff to make up for their downsides while short cooldown high damage minions would do the opposite so their performance is similar

[toxic yoke]

Depends what you're building for. If you want a middle ground build then ya thats exactly what you'd do, which is neat in the sense that you can build completely different and hit the same/similar mark with different minions. However, I personally see people leaning more into what each specific minion is good at more than trying to hit the average mark.

[jagged lotus]

Idk I think in the case of lifetime it'd just make that specific stat bonus less used like it is now. With mana management becoming a lot easier low lifetime minions aren't gonna be too hard to upkeep on their own, but they would be hard to use for hybrid which would the use case for lifetime

[toxic yoke]

Short lifespan high damage minions scaling damage to minmax dps at the cost of being very active. High lifespan, low damage minion to minmax lifespan to be passive or spec for warlock with per minion scaling buffs.

Mid lifespan minions could swing either way but not have the same highend

[jagged lotus]

I mean idk about you but I'd never bother with taking a +25% lifetime ring when I'm using 5m minions

[toxic yoke]

25% lifetime on 5m minions sounds amazing 😄

[jagged lotus]

I mean

What I mean is it's so long regardless that why would I not just go for more damage besides idling?

[dire horizon]

More lifespan means longer buffs for arcane staff

[toxic yoke]

I get you, but again it depends what you're building towards

Rn people are building both damage and lifetime because the exploit xd

[jagged lotus]

I like the idea of keeing the base lifetime stats in particular relatively low cuz every minion starts from a similar point but your build has a lot more choice in where you specialize. Taking lifetime accessories for hybrid so you have more uptime for synergy and using your main weapon or taking dps stuff for focusing on pure minion damage

If you make the lifetime bonus of stuff like hourglass ring a lot lower it makes taking them with low lifetime minions an even harder sell imo

[toxic yoke]

Ehh I don't personally like it, I'd like the tome to matter more

They currently feel very same-y

[jagged lotus]

I'm not saying everything has to have the same lifetime but like, anything past a minute is at the point where I can't see people bothering with lifetime for it ever because minion upkeep is going to be way way way easier no matter what

[toxic yoke]

I mean its currently a minute and lowkey its really annoying to be a summoner and go mining/exploring

[jagged lotus]

And then nerfing lifetime buffs to account for that also affects the low lifetime stuff in a way that I would think would just make it used even less

[jagged lotus]

That's due to summon cost getting up to like 72 and the slow deploy time tbf

[toxic yoke]

Thats one facet to it

having to actually summon them every 1-2 minutes is also annoying af when im not even fightning

[jagged lotus]

For passive gameplay yea kinda

Being able to poop out 3-5 minions every time your mana regens though would make summoning in general feel a ton more active in its combat capabilities, you wouldn't have to constantly be resummoning them while doing other things like mining for actual upkeep

[toxic yoke]

Sure, but i could also be melee/range with no annoying upkeep

[jagged lotus]

See an enemy coming? Pop pop pop pop and now half your minion count is out already and they'll probably be able to kill whatever is pestering you

[toxic yoke]

Is that not silly tho?

[jagged lotus]

Wdym?

[toxic yoke]

half specifically

All other builds have 100% of their damage instantly whenever

[jagged lotus]

The gameplay is inherently focused on minion management so like, Eh?

I do get the want for a long lasting minion, my concern is just how it affects everything else, especially for regular minions that have short lifetimes

[toxic yoke]

inherently debuffed by minion managment*

[jagged lotus]

Wdym

[toxic yoke]

No other class is burdened by it AND those classes easily outscale summoner

Punished to be punished

[jagged lotus]

This is separate from the damage output issue tho no?

[toxic yoke]

Just because i like the concept of summoner

[toxic yoke]

Yes and no

[jagged lotus]

Ideally using summons would be more comparable to other classes with the rework regardless

[toxic yoke]

If summoner and melee were matching damage, and summoner could only summon half their minion cap and have to wait 5 more seconds to summon the rest why am I dealing the same damage when I have the mechanic of managing my minions as extra requirement?

It doesn't make sense.

[warped nebula]

Then play that

[jagged lotus]

I mean, a summoner can also use a melee weapon after popping out those 5 minions to potentially get even more damage, melee is inherently a risky class that should be rewarding you with high comparative damage output

[toxic yoke]

I play everything, so ya I do 🙂

[toxic yoke]

Not if we are making all minions 15s

[jagged lotus]

@toxic yoke mostly I'd just prefer not reducing the existing lifetime bonuses. Can we find a way to accomodate that?

[toxic yoke]

im not asking for a nerf

I said that

[jagged lotus]

Oh lmao

[toxic yoke]

I just said IF i was to change it i would prefer the nerf to lifespan instead

[jagged lotus]

I'm still a bit iffy about having 5 minute minions, could be very dangerous for balance

[dire horizon]

Summoning minion upkeep will always be worse for exploration than the other classes if that's the focus, you have to basically upkeep your 100% of your dmg every 2 minutes or less, and every other build can upkeep their dmg 100% of the time much simpler, and out scale summoning as a whole

[jagged lotus]

Summoners are also free to attack alongside their minions tho

But I do get the appeal of having much longer lasting minions for exploration

[toxic yoke]

i also think 5mins is high

[jagged lotus]

@toxic yoke how about something closer to three minutes? That gets you close to 5 with just longing for this world and it doesn't make lifetime buffs in general too high for them

[toxic yoke]

to be fair

I originally said 15s-5m without too much thought was thinking "long lifespan" without consideration for all the lifespan increases

[jagged lotus]

Fair enough

[toxic yoke]

I do think 2.5-3 is around the high end to not completely invalidate lifespan modifiers.

[jagged lotus]

Even the current 1 minute ones can get you to 3 minutes fairly easily without a ton of effort

The main issue with that currently is just actually maintaining your minions when they're so expensive

[toxic yoke]

I'd say giving up both rings is quite the sacrifice, and you'd have to for 3ms

[jagged lotus]

Indeed

[dire horizon]

Tbh I was fine with 1 minute 30 seconds timers but honestly ig 2-3 minutes could be a nice middle ground

[jagged lotus]

What's your ideal upper limit then? I think the absolute most is three minutes for me but anywhere fron 1m30s to 2m would be more palatteable for me

[toxic yoke]

Middle ground? thats about as far as i'd ever go.

[jagged lotus]

It also depends on what minions would be getting this

[dire horizon]

True lol

[jagged lotus]

Tome of the dark seems like an obvious candidate

[toxic yoke]

I forget which i prefered being the longest, i think it was orbiting minions

I'd have to think about that all again

and my sleep is impending so thought is lacking

[dire horizon]

Orbital being the longest

Ranged being middle ground

Melee being shortest

[jagged lotus]

I still stand by making it depending on the individual minion

[toxic yoke]

ya but that was the rule of thumb or w/e

[jagged lotus]

I think dark and decay would be my top candidates

[toxic yoke]

could easily have 1 hit sniper ranged minions

sounds sicccc af which is why i keep mentioning that one specifically

Ik they don't really want to make any minions like any existing mobs but could you imagine a bomb scarab minion that deals explosive damage by blowing itself up 🤣

[dire horizon]

1 hit sniper minions would be cool

But we'd need new ranged minion for that 1 hit sniper role lol

[jagged lotus]

I was disappointed they went with the minion detonator instead of that tbh

[dire horizon]

Guardian set is pretty disappointing, and minion detonator

[jagged lotus]

Tbh they need to at least like triple the current number of minions

[toxic yoke]

Minion detonator is nice for the fact that you can do it to any minion.

[jagged lotus]

Yeah but now like idk if we'd ever get a dedicated explosive minion

[toxic yoke]

Take time making new things though. They could copy and paste like they already did but that makes which ever one is worse irrelvant when they are basically the same.

[jagged lotus]

Hence giving them more lifetime variance

And other stats and such

[toxic yoke]

Bat < Plant
Skeleton < Fire Mite
Jellyfish > Hand

[dire horizon]

Exploding orbital or ranged currently is a huge waste of mana/dmg

Melee is decent for it Because of melee AI and they have the highest dmg value rn

[jagged lotus]

Is fire mites actually better?

I was under the impression they generally were worse cuz of lower direct damage and burn generally being kinda crud

[toxic yoke]

You only really use melee early, and fire mite burn damage makes them better. Im not sure about end game skeletons tho

[jagged lotus]

I mean you don't get skeletons till mid game lol

Kinda think they're obtained at a weird point

They're probably one of the most vanilla minions in the game and you obtain them between plants and jellies

[toxic yoke]

I go bat > fire mite > plant, maybe just maybe if im meming i'll use jellyfish to 1 shot some bosses.

[dire horizon]

I go bat>fire mite>plant>jellyfish, cause jellyfish I can just run through shimmering and challenge arenas easier

[jagged lotus]

Generally I think jellies should have 30s lifetime or around there. Rad hands should get the super high lifetime to make them more focused as a support summon

[toxic yoke]

I'm a fan of using plant + chakram, and just evading projectiles and kiting to survive.

[jagged lotus]

I haven't used plants so idk what balance should be for them

[dire horizon]

Ah yea I'm the boring shield spam in danger and let the beyblade jellyfish do the work

[jagged lotus]

Considering they're basically free poison I'd be kinda cautious of giving them other high stats

[toxic yoke]

Not a fan of the shield, it is in fact boring thats why i only use it for hardcore when i need it

Also not boring when your run is on the line 😄

[toxic yoke]

not only free poison but legit possible 3x damage of the bat

[dire horizon]

Pestilence would be better than jellyfish if jellyfish didn't abuse boss hitboxes, even then they are DEFINITELY our best summon for almost everything else

[jagged lotus]

Idk I like being a parry god, wish there was melee or general physical damage builds that incentivized parrying

[dire horizon]

1 pestilence is basically 3 bats, so in terms of scaling I'd just keep them and bats the same atm

[toxic yoke]

bats longer lifetime or higher base dmg imo

[jagged lotus]

I'd make bats have long lifetime

[dire horizon]

Maybe both tbh, but I have faster clears with bats on some bosses than tome of decay sadly XD so honestly decay REALLY needs love

[jagged lotus]

We talked about this a bit earlier but radiation applying a new debuff similar to poison would be nice

It'd cement tome of decay as a support summon that you could use alongside other stuff

[toxic yoke]

Gunna ask again just for the giggles, how do you guys feel about having base lifespan scale slightly? Could mean base lifespan is more appropriately be lower when minion counts are low in early game and as you would progress lifespan gets longer to mediate some of the frustrations of higher minion count.
(Not suggesting this, just curious about both your thoughts on it)

[jagged lotus]

I'd say no unless it was like a propery of a specific minion, like how some weapons have faster attack speed as an inherent property that gets increased with upgrades

[dire horizon]

That's fine to me, gives us more reason to upgrade tomes honestly, and more QOL for late game when it matters

[jagged lotus]

So like if bats had +10% lifetime, that value would go up with levelups

But it'd only apply to bats

[toxic yoke]

I'll even give some numbers for reference, 15s would instead be like 10-15s, 30s would instead be 20-30s, 1m would be like 45s-1m, 3m would be like 2m-3m or something like that.

[jagged lotus]

I get the appeal of making it scale but I think it'd be out of place to apply it to everything. Like most other weapons don't get faster with upgrades or whatever

I think where there is potential for is having minions get more stat buffs to differentiate them more like how regular weapons do

[toxic yoke]

They also don't cost more mana 😄

[jagged lotus]

Tbf we're suggesting to get rid of that

[toxic yoke]

ikik im just saying

btw

[jagged lotus]

I kinda get where you're coming fron with it tho

[toxic yoke]

I don't think they will get rid of mana scaling

[jagged lotus]

If they don't it's a massive L

That's like the basis for the entire rest of the stuff we're doing

[dire horizon]

It makes sense cause since mana isn't going up, tomes don't have passive stats to really go up, upgrades offering more lifespan and dmg makes sense

[toxic yoke]

I'm just in favor of a low base and flat scaling

i think they would be willing to do that

[jagged lotus]

The issue is mana pool itself doesn't really scale rn

[toxic yoke]

Ya some sets give "good" max mana some don't

[jagged lotus]

I don't think it makes much sense for costs to scale when your pool doesn't outside of certain armor sets

Instead of making those pool increases feel like cool buffs to give you more ammo to attack with, it just makes them required to play the same way you can at lower levels

[jagged lotus]

I'd liken that to attack speed going up on a sword tho. Doesn't happen unless the sword has a built in attack speed modifier already

[toxic yoke]

I mean I would like it to be 20 or 25 mana flat

but if it scaled from 20-35 i wouldn't complain(well maybe i would xd)

[dire horizon]

Better than 72 costs I'll take the wins where they are at

[jagged lotus]

I think it would make more sense to have mana cost as another avenue for differentiating minions if anything

[toxic yoke]

Right it would need to be actually

its even in my post/comment xd

im sleepy

[jagged lotus]

I'm not scrolling up to read that over and over fam

[toxic yoke]

ik im saying i forgot

[jagged lotus]

But yeah no, no scaling or this whole discussion is pointless

I'd be kinda interested in getting Fredrik in here to talk about it actually

Might ask Tess about that

[toxic yoke]

Well... they probably aren't going to do that and Fredrik isn't even the person best to talk to. It would be one of the lead devs still working on CK. I assume most of their team is working on the new game.

[jagged lotus]

Oh true

Alright well get in whoever is handling game design now

[toxic yoke]

David or Herman iirc

but

either way...

We probably won't get a back and forth BUT

Tess has let me know that once we settle on something she will share the doc with the devs directly

[jagged lotus]

Not a back and forth necessarily but like, maybe why they went with cost scaling being a thing and whether they'd consider axing it

[toxic yoke]

Which is more than we could ever ask for

[jagged lotus]

Cuz like if they won't fix the cost scaling then summoning is going to just be terrible unless they rework mana

[toxic yoke]

But then again they might have a completely separate solution we've never thought of as well

[jagged lotus]

I mean the other solution would just be making mana scale more like hp

Which would be fine, I guess?

[toxic yoke]

I think from us the best thing we can provide is what we would change and why. And that gives them good information on what is actually lacking. Whether they take our advice in the changes we suggest or address them in their own way im okay so long as there is improvement 😄

[toxic yoke]

ya this is also a solution, 50% cost reduction is identical to 100% increase to max mana

[jagged lotus]

I half wonder if this wasn't the original intention and then they went back on it but only partially rebalanced everything else?

Like it's insane that a single minion right now can cost 72 mana when mana barely gets past like 300

And iirc before their cost scaling was even higher

[toxic yoke]

nah their mana cost hasn't changed since release

only the base lifespan got doubled, so effectively the mana cost to sustain them got halved

[dire horizon]

Mana doesn't even go that high with grim set, think 60 mana on top of the 100

[toxic yoke]

Ya corrupt warden is the set you want for mana and that is 117 max mana at lvl 19

[jagged lotus]

Oh wack

[toxic yoke]

so 217, plus if you want give up puppet and hourglass rings you could take mana rings. Its already not worth, but nothing else would be worth giving up.

Scholar bag for 29 mana xd

[jagged lotus]

But yeah no the cost scaling just makes no sense with how it's set up rn

I would think it'd almost be easier to just axe it than rebalance stuff like mana regen around scaling

[toxic yoke]

When i do get around to it do you think i should go in-depth with specific tome & minion values?

Too excessive imo but might help give context

Ohh i just thought of something cool for minion detonator 😄

[jagged lotus]

Aren't the costs all the same rn?

Heck I'd argue it should be wiped from mage weapons too ngl

[toxic yoke]

ehh

A bit too heavy handed

[jagged lotus]

Depends

You can still have mage weapons for example that still require a really large mana pool to use effectively with a high per-use cost

[toxic yoke]

I think removing mana regen getting interrupted when you spend mana would do absolute wonders to mana.

[dire horizon]

Mage it's ehhh, maybe on some staffs to be lowered on costs but honestly they have more mana income opportunities

[jagged lotus]

Their scaling also isn't as egregious

Only 1 point per level instead of 2 iirc

[jagged lotus]

I'm still in favor of it not going up while actively attacking. It's intended to function like a stamina bar

The delay is just too long rn

[toxic yoke]

the difference is stamina typically does the thing where once you run out it regens to full so you don't own yourself

mana does not so you absolutely own yourself

[jagged lotus]

Elaborate

[toxic yoke]

To min max your mana usage its best for you to delete your mana bar then let it regen to full, repeat until everything is dead.

[jagged lotus]

Right

[toxic yoke]

But if you just constantly attack, you are countering yourself by spending mana as you get it and -1 second of mana regen every attack

So 1 of 2 things need to happen imo, force mana regen to full before being able to attack again, or remove the interruption all together

[jagged lotus]

I'm confused, what's the difference between CK mana and stamina systems then?

[toxic yoke]

CK mana regen: On mana use, delay of 1 second without spending mana by default before mana starts regening.
Most stamina systems: On stamina use, delay of # seconds without spending stamina before stamina starts regening. On full depletion, stamina cannot be used until it regens to full.

[jagged lotus]

Souls at least you just need more than 0 to use stamina again at least

[toxic yoke]

The lock out seems like a punishment, but it actually is helping you.

[jagged lotus]

I mean you could also just stop attacking when it empties

Souls games have a system where you can go into negative stamina which does stop you from performing actions but once it regens back to positive you may attack again

I'd be fine with getting rid of the static delay in favor of it simply being paused until a mana consuming action finishes. Less awkward for fast attacking weapons but still balanced for slower stuff

[toxic yoke]

I mean... you might as well just remove it at that point ngl i don't see much point when the delay for every action is the same

[jagged lotus]

Like axes and swords have the same use time?

[toxic yoke]

I could be wrong but going off of feel, I think so ya

[jagged lotus]

Hmm

Idk I'm just not sure totally removing it is a smart move

It's a pretty consistent mechanic in some fashion across most games that have a similar sort of resource bar

[toxic yoke]

I've played plenty of arpgs and roguelikes that have both behaviors

arpgs its almost non-existant to have costs interrupt your mana regen, roguelikes its a coinflip one way or the other if mana/stamina even exists

[jagged lotus]

I mean the best example for action rpgs I have played is like souls games, besides that it's like, skyrim lmao and I think both had stamina regen delays. I forget how skyrim's mana worked

[toxic yoke]

||laying down so i'll be replying from phone definitely gunna fall asleep soon af||

[jagged lotus]

Ohh monster hunter also stops regening till an attack finishes I believe

[jagged lotus]

https://tenor.com/view/mr-peabody-peabody-dog-paw-beagle-gif-20055648

[toxic yoke]

PoE and Diablo just about the biggest arpgs out there don't have it

I guess my point is either works it's not particularly hard to balance one way or another.

[jagged lotus]

I haven't played those so

Just, in my head it would seem kinda funky for mana to constantly be regening while you're actively shooting a weapon like arcane staff for example

[toxic yoke]

I mean that's hardly a good example, you could have 0 mana regen and be able sustain your mana. xd

No other staff could do that reliably

[jagged lotus]

I love mana channeling I love feeding crit meta!!1!

I think I'd just be concerned with regen stacking causing a lot of weapons to be able to to sustain their attacks for an extremely long period of time. I think while actively attacking or while a mana weapon is on cooldown the mana regen stops. That's close enough to pausing during attacks in other games while still being more consistent across weapons with different attack speeds

[toxic yoke]

But wouldn't this be fine if you have to sacrifice a large chunk of your damage in your build for it? Way I see it is if the expectation is for mages to be online 75% of the time then giving them the ability to be online 100% of the time,, then they need to lose 25% or more of their total damage to match dmg output

[jagged lotus]

A bunch of mage talents are purely just for mana regen tho

[ornate iron]

[jagged lotus]

One new minion

[dire horizon]

Nah new minion off-hand, combines all minions into one minion 💀 almost as useful as the minion detonator

[jagged lotus]

Minions that cost more minion slots would be epic tbh

[dire horizon]

Currently it wouldn't unless we see more minion slots XD or the mega minion in question is like a boss killing machine, it would have to be X2 better than the current slots it would take

[jagged lotus]

Not necessarily ones that take up all slots. Like 2-3. Like a beefcake stone golem that does a bunch of damage and has a high lifetime in exchange for taking up extra slots

Minions that aren't purely attack focused would also be cool

Like an orbital minion that blocks projectiles or a minion that buffs allies

[dire horizon]

The bunch of dmg wouldn't be enough though unless it was like in the 1000s, cause minion builds themselves rely quite a lot on numbers atm, which makes minion detonator so bad, you lose ALL dmg source and honestly it's not even worth the explosion 90% of the time XD

Minion count reliance is huge for summon builds, and hybrid builds wouldn't be able to use a summon that costs more than 1 as of rn

That minion would have to make up difference in numbers with a bigger modifier than 500% XD

[dire horizon]

That would be cool too kinda

Like I think I recommended a healer role for summoning, healing/buffs for party members

It would be cool for multiplayer but dead in single player

[jagged lotus]

I mean a minion that heals allies would also be useful for you. Summon 1-2 if you take some damage. They could have other buffs as well

[dire horizon]

True it would help hybrid builds then again yea it would make magic/summoning even stronger unless it cost heck load of mana

[jagged lotus]

I think stationary turret type minions would also work well for this. You could summon something that works more like a placeable buff totem you have to stand near (important in boss fights cuz of positioning and such) that provides passive buffs in a radius around it to you and allies. If placed next to a boss, melee minions near it could also be affected by it

[jagged lotus]

I mean there's downsides to it still. You'd have to rotate them out fully to get back up to full damage

[dire horizon]

Stationary minions would be best for healing/buffs I agree, gives you an active support role as well, maybe a minion set to further the support role, like increasing minion lifespan and buffs they can provide ect

[jagged lotus]

A high powered ranged turret would also be neat, something you place at the corner of a boss room and it hammers away at boss hp

[dire horizon]

Grim set for dmg, guardian set for tank, and a supporter type armor for support, would give summoning 3 roles they can take

[jagged lotus]

Actually you bring up a good point regarding scaling, there wouldn't be much besides direct upgrading to improve efficacy or equipment options

Though maybe that's not a bad thing cuz they could just give it strong base stats so you can still focus most accessories around damage without losing much

[jagged lotus]

I half wonder if guardian was originally going to have that knockoff tough gang affect and then they forgot to remove it when they gave it the explosive thing

[dire horizon]

Would be awesome to have a turret of some sort as a stationary

[dire horizon]

Honestly with the bug I see your point, like tough gang with armor% instead of dmg but I mean even now it's still our tankiest build, not a lot of dmg but by the time you get it you can get enough out of the dmg to call viable I can say that, definitely far from hard mode bossing T-T

[jagged lotus]

I'd really like a warlord armor that's melee summoner hybrid

[dire horizon]

For melee armor the gimmick I would like is each enemy you kill can resummon a minion for you, and minions buffing your lifesteal/melee dmg, would be a unique vampire build, but that's just a random take, I'm sure there's lots of cooler ideas for it

Or since you and I love parry shield ( I like it cause I can turn my brain off ) maybe a shield that each parry temporarily increases minion attack speed by 50% for 10 seconds or something like that

[jagged lotus]

I mean the shield isn't directly melee related, any class can run those, but that sounds cool yea

Personally I'd like one of the extra synergy skills in summoning like power in numbers or group effort to affect melee instead

Trickle down should really be in the mage tree considering the general logic with synergy skills in one tree benefitting a different talent, like step back being in the melee tree but affecting ranged damage

[dire horizon]

Yea that was what I mean by increasing lifesteal/melee dmg, in a numbers kinda way, more minions more bonus, with the killing enemies to summon minions too you'd have QOL but it isn't too passive cause it requires you to actively be killing enemies for it

Shield idea was just for anyone tbh, I know it isn't really just melee oriented XD

[jagged lotus]

I do love me a good shield

If we ever get a physical damage skill tree I'd love if it focused on stuff like parrying and dodge builds

[dire horizon]

Wait wait I just thought of something maybe genius even

Orbital minion that acts like a shield, give it the base dmg of tome of decay ( hear me out )

When you parry just like sentinel shield all your minions shoot out 3 projectiles for 70 each this scales with minion dmg ect

Parry summoner build

Amazing for bossing if you parry a lot, punishing if you can't parry XD but it would be cool

[jagged lotus]

🤔

Does on-hit affects still proc if you parry to negate all damage? Like sulfossil or thorns

[dire horizon]

Hmmm that could be cool but I figured this build, basically make sentinel shield as a minion, they do tome of decay dmg on regular hit which is utter yucky but when you parry it activates their parry effect shooting out 3 projectiles

If we wanted to add something cause of how punishing this could be maybe a new armor to support it like base 6 minions, it gives you armor % per minion and has in built armor in it, since it's basically melee too maybe make a crazy hybrid to convert armor% into melee%? Idk

[jagged lotus]

No like I'm asking if that works atm

[dire horizon]

Ohhh I mean I know parry effects work idk about on hit effects

Actually wait thorns doesn't work

[jagged lotus]

Yea im asking if on-hit affects are proced by parrying. Specifically stuff like thorns or sulfossil

[dire horizon]

I was capping so hard yea thorns doesn't proc on perfect parry

As far as I've seen it

Idk about sulfossil armor though, tbh it's a dead build XD always has been even now

It should do a more cool effect for the explosive class tbh

[jagged lotus]

I think if the on-hit damage was much higher and it scaled with explosives stuff it'd be good

The general armor stats also need to be reworked to lean way harder into explosives as well

Like an aoe stat, self damage reduction, etc.

[toxic yoke]

Was there any other context or info around this message or just a rogue teaser? 🤣

[ornate iron]

Just a teaser

[toxic yoke]

damn was hoping for something a bit more substantial 😄

I speculate an explosive minion honestly

Btw might have something to share by the end of today if i can stay focused but focus isn't something i possess in strides so we'll see 😅

[toxic yoke]

Welp i got distracted, i'll have something to share next time i work it, hopefully tomorrow xd

[jagged lotus]

I'm about to move on to explosives atp

[toxic yoke]

lmfao

im not

[toxic yoke]

or you mean because im taking too long?

[jagged lotus]

I'm becoming more fixated on that

[toxic yoke]

Thats fine, same as what i did with summoning, im gunna give them time to cook that, and if it doesn't improve after a few of the bigger updates then i'll suggest stuff. But then again im not as invested into explosives so maybe i won't 🤷‍♂️

[jagged lotus]

Explosives is a lot more straight forward tho it needs a whole extra crafting system or something for their weapons

[toxic yoke]

I almost feel like hand mortar and similar explosive weapons need to use grenades as ammo, and maybe without grenades they do their normal attack?

[ornate iron]

Bombs I only use for destroying walls. But grenades I use for fishing and sometimes on combat. It's funny I use 100+ grenades only to end with a higher amount because the skills.

And equips

[jagged lotus]

My main gripe is bombs and grenades don't really follow equipment leveling like normal weapons. It'd be fairly easy for them to just be crafted with different ore materials that are used for their damage

[toxic yoke]

kind of does but its super abstract

[jagged lotus]

Right now, you want to use mouse bombs post-wall? Too bad

[toxic yoke]

Like you just don't have access to upgrades

[jagged lotus]

#1349853411587260577 message

This is my ideal explosives crafting system

Like cooking on steroids

[toxic yoke]

ya i was thinking about a solution like this, byob - build your own bomb

[ornate iron]

Still can be used for MP/Melee buff at later

[toxic yoke]

I don't like that the grenades don't collide with enemies and explode on contact. I kind of thought thats what they would do

[jagged lotus]

Googling how to build a pipe bomb core keeper

[toxic yoke]

And now you're on a watchlist

[jagged lotus]

https://tenor.com/view/hades-nah-disney-no-hercules-gif-7973951891016697882

[ornate iron]

https://tenor.com/view/chicken-fbi-skeptic-chicken-funny-gif-14153035

[jagged lotus]

Impact nades would be nice. Bombs explode when hit by enemies or projectiles already which is sometimes kinda awful for combat cuz you get blown up instantly by a projectile hitting a bomb you just placed

[toxic yoke]

thought you couldn't throw bombs

was that just a bug?

i only played with explosives day 1

[jagged lotus]

You can't

But when you place them sometimes an enemy attacks at like the worst time and it blows up in your face

[toxic yoke]

ya i did notice bombs sometimes go off immediately

didn't notice why in the short time i spent blowing myself things up

having to place bombs is silly 🤷‍♂️

[jagged lotus]

Not sure how well it works but you may be able use a ranged weapon to blow up bombs prematurely to damage enemies next to it

[toxic yoke]

you can explode explosives to set them off immediately

that much i know

[jagged lotus]

That gives me an idea for a new talent actually

[ornate iron]

Need a bomb laucher

😂

[jagged lotus]

If we do get crafting rework, being able to turn any of the regular bomb variants into mouse or proximity bombs would be really cool

[toxic yoke]

ya perhaps grenades can be the no-collision explosive, and bombs can be used as ammo by a secondary weapon and explode on contact

[jagged lotus]

It'd make blunder bombs insanely good for tunneling like they're supposed to be

I think bombs just need longer placement range tbh

If we had an offhand that extended block placement range it'd be a nice pair with it

[toxic yoke]

hand cannon and bomb scarab are nice weapons for the fact they don't use ammo but they get outscaled by the better bombs

[toxic yoke]

that i guess is an okay alternate solution, but ima let them cook up things for a while. either way its definitely lack luster atm

And they definitely know it is so just a matter of time before theres some additions

[jagged lotus]

They still haven't cooked with the magic classes

[ornate iron]

I wanted more rings that increase the number os minions. Only have the puppet one atm.

[toxic yoke]

ya puppet ring is lowkey op too

[jagged lotus]

Would be sick if t3 had a talent that made detonating bombs prematurely do like +50% explosive damage or something

[toxic yoke]

Instead of your custom bomb crafting thing, they should just use upgrade station to upgrade the tier of bombs. and the cost would scale with the count of items you put in so you can upgrade a stack a time or w/e

But obviously with different costs

[jagged lotus]

That'd also be fine

[toxic yoke]

Like i get your thing is cooler, but again i like to think about simpler solutions

[jagged lotus]

Tho I also love the idea of being able to change the detonator on different bomb and grenade types personally

[toxic yoke]

ofc

[jagged lotus]

Does beg the question how they'd measure cost of upgrading? Upgrading in bulk might be really expensive if it's 1 metal bar per bomb for example

[ornate iron]

Well... it's not better to make another thread? This one it's for summon.

[toxic yoke]

it doesn't really matter at this point xd

[jagged lotus]

this thread is waiting for iDoodler to finish his durned document

[ornate iron]

True

[toxic yoke]

I have very little left to add, but kind of burnt myself out yesterday ngl

so im just playing MC atm

[jagged lotus]

@burnt bone sorry for the ping but I thought I might as well ask directly from the source since we're going to be submitting a document that hinges on this. Would you guys consider removing the mana cost scaling from upgrading summoning tomes (and magic weapons to a lesser extent)? The mana bar doesn't get much of any increases at all (grim armor only gets you to 159 as the primary end game summon armor) so it becomes downright impossible to keep up with that cost scaling of upgrades (72 mana at lvl 19).

Personally I think it'd feel a lot better for summoner gameplay if costs didn't scale much (if at all) and it would make minion management feel a lot less tedious. Obviously some other things might need tweaked to compensate like general minion lifetimes but overall I think it'd help with a lot of the moment-to-moment gameplay struggles summoner has right now since it'd be a lot easier to get all your minions out at the same time without having to wait through several mana regeneration cycles

[toxic yoke]

smh

its in the doc why even ask? :X

[jagged lotus]

Cuz that's the big thing that everything else hinges on

[toxic yoke]

Ehh not really

I would say its one of the biggest problems, but the lifespan tweaks would already assume mana costs change, and then the minion count solution for trying to increase build diversity is also its own thing

[jagged lotus]

I mean it kind of is. Mana economy is the biggest issue with summoning

[toxic yoke]

agree, but it other changes don't really hinge on it

[jagged lotus]

Also

[toxic yoke]

ie, even if they choose to do lifespan changes, as long as nothing goes below 1m then wouldn't need to change mana

[jagged lotus]

You haven't even finished the doc yet quit ur bellyachin

[toxic yoke]

says the one not making the doc 🤣

[jagged lotus]

I STARTED ONE AND YOU INSISTED ON MAKING YOUR OWN

[toxic yoke]

We both started one at the same time i never told you to stop

There was no insisting

[jagged lotus]

https://tenor.com/view/online-classes-throw-away-computer-parks-and-rec-ron-swanson-gif-17413463

[rancid forge]

Why you pinging Fredrik? This man so busy, if you are sending a doc to them, what's the need for pinging devs?

[dire horizon]

Hi mistry

True though we should reframe from pinging mods or devs, I don't want to bother them

[rancid forge]

Hello, I was summoned by the pinging of devs, and now I disappear 😂

[toxic yoke]

@jagged lotus you around?

gunna dm you a link if thats cool

[dire horizon]