Imperial Fists - List Help & Theorycrafting

[sonic laurel]

Hi everyone! New to Horus Heresy, but have been playing 40k and other tabletop wargames for the last year. Horus Heresy looks really fun and the play style looks fun and engaging.

I have been going through the Loyalist Book in order to come up with a list that will fit what I like and look cool (in this case, lots of tanks). I am hoping that people with more experience than myself can help me out with advice on making this list 1. Fun, and 2. Playable/Functional in a game.

Thank you all in advance!

Rite of War - The Stone Gauntlet
Warlord Trait - The Unbroken Wall

HQ

Fafnir Rann 175

Troops

Phalanx Warder Squad - 10 225
Plasma gun x2 20
Vexilla 15
Thunder Hammer for Serg. 15
Rhino Transport with Dozer Blade 40

Phalanx Warder Squad - 10 225
Plasma gun x2 20
Vexilla 15
Thunder Hammer for Serg. 15
Rhino Transport with Dozer Blade 40

Phalanx Warder Squad - 10 22
Plasma gun x2 20
Vexilla 15
Thunder Hammer for Serg. 15
Rhino Transport with Dozer Blade 40

Tactical Support Squad - 5 85
Vexilla 10
Plasma gun 50
Power Sword for Serg. 10
Plasma Pistol for Serg. 10
Rhino Transport with Dozer Blade 40

Tactical Support Squad - 5 85
Vexilla 10
Plasma gun 50
Power Sword for Serg. 10
Plasma Pistol for Serg. 10
Rhino Transport with Dozer Blade 40

Elite

Contemptor Dreadnought Talon 175
Gravis Plasma Cannon 10
Chainfist with combi-bolter 10
Havoc Launcher 10

Contemptor Dreadnought Talon 175
Gravis Plasma Cannon 10
Chainfist with combi-bolter 10
Havoc Launcher 10

Fast Attack

Sabre Strike Tank 80
Anvilus Snub Autocannon 0
Hull front - Volkite Culverin 15
Pintle - Havoc Launcher 15

Sabre Strike Tank 80
Anvilus Snub Autocannon 0
Hull front - Volkite Culverin 15
Pintle - Havoc Launcher 15

Sabre Strike Tank 80
Anvilus Snub Autocannon 0
Hull front - Volkite Culverin 15
Pintle - Havoc Launcher 15

Heavy Support

Sicaran 190
Accelerator Autocannon 0
Sponson - Volkite Culverin x2 10
Pintle - Heavy Bolter 10

Sicaran 190
Accelerator Autocannon 0
Sponson - Volkite Culverin x2 10
Pintle - Heavy Bolter 10

Sicaran Arcus 215
Skyspear Warhead 15
Sponson - Volkite Culverin x2 10
Helical Targeting Array 15

Total Points 2945

<@&877302776814796841>

[spice halo]

So I don’t hate this list, but it admittedly feels pretty boring. I applaud you for having so much plasma, but I would recommend having some melta in there if possible. At the bare minimum put MultiMeltas on the rhinos. Do you self a favor and switch out the Sicaran sponsons for Lascannons.

Your army is fine but lacks any meaningful ranged AP two or one

Sorry if that came off as harsh, it’s not intended to.

[sonic laurel]

Never crossed my mind as harsh lol I am new to the game so all advice is super appreciated!

Going off just the Loyalist Book right now so alot of the rules are missing for me, so a lot of the gun affects mean nothing to me. So meltas are better than plasma?

What aspect of the list is boring for you? For me, I fell in love with Sabre and Sicaran as soon as I saw them and knew I needed them in a list. And in my head cannon, this would have been an Armoured Division for the IP

[spice halo]

Just to give you an idea, every gun kind of has its place. In the current edition plasma is great at hurting infantry and dreadnoughts. It can also be good at removing a few hull points from vehicles. Melta is shorter ranged for the most part, but actively maintains AP1 against vehicles, and if it’s close enough will roll two dice to penetrate the armor instead of just one, while also adding two to the damage table; it is dangerously good at killing armor and causing instant death to multiwound models. just think about moving some Melta around in your army even if just as Pintle Mounts or the like.

The tanks are actually excellent, and while I do love Volkite, you will want your Sicarans to be hunting armor/monsters/elite infantry while the Sabres move around the board providing assistance where necessary.

The only reason the list truly seems boring in some aspects is because of identical loadouts in multiple sections of the army without much variation and/or plasma spam for the sake of it. That’s not to say it’s a bad army, I personally just don’t feel it seems super inspired because of that. Obviously if you get it to look good on the table and it feels good to you, that’s all that matters

[sonic laurel]

The only reason for the plasma spam is because just from my limited knowledge and just from the book it seemed like the better choice lol :p

So if I do a support squad with meltas and the other plasma, and put meltas/lascannons on my tanks and rhinos that would be better?

I guess another question I have is the sicaran arcus. Is it worth having one, or better to just go for another basic sicaran? Or would a punisher be good?

[gentle galleon]

I’m partial to the standard sicaran, the arcus is a great solid counter to flyers (skyspear) or deep striking (hta).

Any way of squeezing in a castellan to make your hss’s Line?

[spice halo]

This is valid! The plasma will serve you well overall and it IS good. But yes summation is dead on!

Both the Sicaran and Arcus are great units. Truth be told you can get away with either and be fine. It’s up to personal preference at that point.

[humble spindle]

I would drop the support squads, will push up the phalanx to 20 men, two or three phalanx of 20 are unstoppable, with apothecaries of course ( every app with a power axe for flavor, any power weapon may do), yes they will advance slowly, but they will advance unstoppable,very hard to kill, just let your opponent struggle against your shields with everything he has, take advantage of the stone gauntlet. You will get enough firepower to cripple infantry with your bolters, the only downside is a dreadnought charging, so put a cac dreadnought to support
You will need strong antitank ,which you don't have in your list, spartan (take a heavy support slot) ,land raiders if you go with small phalanx squads , legión rapiers,some predator squadron may do something also etc

[sonic laurel]

Thank you! I love the look of the Arcus, but it could be a point waste of there are no flyers vs a standard Sicaran. Plus I save some points switching!

I don't think I have the room for a castellan unfortunately lol :p

[sonic laurel]

Thank you for all your suggestions and the help you gave me! I really appreciate the explanation on everything! It was a great help for me with no experience in the game!

[sonic laurel]

I do love the idea of the big blob of shields! I will see if I can make this work without sacrificing too much of what I have.

Would the tanks I have in my list not be anti-tank? As per the suggestions above, I will be swapping some weapon loadouts on my tanks to include meltas and lascannons.

[humble spindle]

Well by antitank I mean something able to go through a land raider 14 front armor, you will see a lot of land raider around

[gentle galleon]

Anti-armor suggestions…

What about a pair of legion vindicators armed with manga laser destroyers?

Predators with either neutron, graviton, or magna melta?

Leviathan with grav bombard?

[sonic laurel]

Yes! Totally a Vindicator! But why the magna laser and not the standard loadout? Just from looking, the standard seems better?

[gentle galleon]

Exoshock. Sorry away from book.

[sonic laurel]

I really like the sicaran tanks so I would like to have the majority of my heavy be them

[gentle galleon]

Maybe the Venator?

Seem to remember main weapon is neutron.

Nvm. Not specifically AT.

[sonic laurel]

Updated list for comments! <@&877302776814796841>

Rite of War - The Stone Gauntlet
Warlord Trait - The Unbroken Wall

HQ

Fafnir Rann 175

Troops

Phalanx Warder Squad - 20 425
Vexilla 15
Thunder Hammer for Serg. 15

Phalanx Warder Squad - 10 225
Plasma Gun x2 20
Vexilla 15
Thunder Hammer for Serg. 15
Rhino - Dozer Blade & Combi-Meltagun50

Phalanx Warder Squad - 10 225
Plasma Gun x2 20
Vexilla 15
Thunder Hammer for Serg. 15
Rhino - Dozer Blade & Combi-Meltagun50

Tactical Support Squad - 5 85
Vexilla 10
Meltagun 75
Power Sword for Serg. 10
Plasma Pistol for Serg. 10
Rhino - Dozer Blade & Combi-Meltagun50

Tactical Support Squad - 5 85
Vexilla 10
Meltagun 75
Power Sword for Serg. 10
Plasma Pistol for Serg. 10
Rhino - Dozer Blade & Combi-Meltagun50

Elite

Apothecary Detachment - 1 45

Contemptor Dreadnought Talon 175
Gravis Lascannon 20
Gravis Lascannon 20
Havoc Launcher 10

Fast Attack

Sabre Strike Tank 80
Anvilus Snub Autocannon 0
Hull front - Multi-Melta 25
Pintle - Havoc Launcher 15

Sabre Strike Tank 80
Anvilus Snub Autocannon 0
Hull front - Multi-Melta 25
Pintle - Havoc Launcher 15

Sabre Strike Tank 80
Anvilus Snub Autocannon 0
Hull front - Multi-Melta 25
Pintle - Havoc Launcher 15

Heavy Support

Sicaran 190
Accelerator Autocannon 0
Sponson - Lascannon x2 10
Pintle - Heavy Bolter 10

Sicaran 190
Accelerator Autocannon 0
Sponson - Lascannon x2 10
Pintle - Heavy Bolter 10

Vindicator 120
Magna Laser Destroyer 20
Pintle - Multi-melta 20
Dozer Blade 5

Total Points 2975

[spice halo]

Ok so this new list is very good but I have a few more minor suggestions.

Switch the combi Meltas to Multi Meltas on the Rhinos, ditch the Sergeant upgrades on the Support squads, but give them Artificer Armor instead if that’s an option.

Havoc launchers are fun and a great way to annoy the enemy, but will probably be useless for your Las Dread if he’s firing at armor all day. Drop the Launcher and give him a Helical Targeting Array. I’m not sure how I feel about the multimelta on the Laser Vindicator as the Laser is Ordnance and you’ll never be able to fire the Melta as anything other than snap shots. With the leftover points I think you could easily buy another two apothecaries to make sure every Warder squad has one

[sonic laurel]

Thank you again!

[sonic laurel]

So this issue I just remembered is my rite of war. I need to have my filled troop slots = my fast attack and elite in total. So I can only have 5 right now split between FA and Elite.

I can do everything else though, but can't add more apothecaries

[spice halo]

Correct! You can add an apothecary to the same apothecarion detachment.

Basically you can only take one detachment of them, but you can take as many as the limit allows with them only taking up that single slot

[sonic laurel]

But then they wouldn't be able to split them and move off with the other warders like you suggested?

Wouldn't they just be a big group moving as one?

[torn kiln]

I heavily approve of your use of Sabres

[gentle galleon]

They are characters.

[sonic laurel]

Thank you! :) Fell in love once I saw them lol

[sonic laurel]

Oh! Didn't realize this lol so for a group of three because they are characters, they can move independently of one another

[gentle galleon]

They also have the Apothecarion Detachment rule.
They must be assigned to a unit before deployment. Infantry with infantry, so on.

[sonic laurel]

Ah ok! Excellent! Thank you for the explanation! Greatly appreciated!

Anything else that can be cut? Right now I'm 40 over lol I removed havoc launchers from everything

@gentle galleon @spice halo

Only thing I can think of is the plasma on my Warders, but not sure if the small group should keep them or not

Removed the plasmas

Thank you everyone for your help on this! I have something that I really like now that will be fun for me (all the tanks) but also functional!

[gentle galleon]

Kindly let us know how your games go.

I’m putting together an oddly similar list.

[sonic laurel]

Oh geez, I have no idea when this will be ready for play lol :p I am completely new to HH, so have zero models.

This was me building the list so I know what to buy lol

I would definitely love to know how your games go though depending on who gets their army done first lol :p

What differences do you have in your list out of curiosity @gentle galleon ?

[gentle galleon]

I use more dreads than tanks.

I don’t use sabres. They’re alright, I just don’t prefer their aesthetics.

The base is the same, though.

1 big blob of Warders, 2 mechanized, all accompanied by apothecaries.
Instead of tss, I use hss, with a castellan for lulz (imagine your opponent trying to root them out of an objective while facing down heavy weapons crossfire…and dreads).

[sonic laurel]

Very nice! That does sound fun!

[gentle galleon]

I just confirmed my suspicions on the rules-and-tactica channel.

Since it seems like you want to use tanks, have you considered allying your SG core with an IH Armored Spearhead?

[sonic laurel]

I have not, why?

[sonic laurel]

So randomly stumbled on this on Reddit and thought I would bring it up here because I am wondering if this is actually correct or not. If it is accurate, this would make a 20 blob even harder to take down:

"Looking at Warders, the get to improve their invuln by one to a max of 3+ when meeting the requirements of cohesion etc. Stone gauntlet gives us a rerollable invuln most of the time, line, and heart of the legion.

Already this is fantastic. Who doesn't think a rerollable 4++ is amazing? And FNP on objectives?

But what if we use Telekine Shield? This grants a 4++ invuln bubble around the librarian and units in an 8 inch bubble. This puts our warders at 4++ then the shield wall improves it by one. 3++ invuln with rerolls?!"

<@&877302776814796841>

[clever salmon]

oh jesus christ

Honestly, I feel like you shouldn't use that just because it kinda becomes a dick move. Warders are ALREADY damn near unkillable

[sonic laurel]

Oh I totally agree, I am new to the game so I was curious if this person's train of thought was accurate or not? Like is this a legit thing you can do?

[clever salmon]

That sounds legit to me

Honestly I think if you brought Dorn, the librarian, an apothecary, and 20 Warders in a spartan, you could get away with it just being another death star

though I'll need to wait to get the liber astartes to be sure

[gentle galleon]

Just makes your vehicles tougher.

[gentle galleon]

I saw that combo, as well…
I just want to try to keep my friends.

[sonic laurel]

Haha! I was just curious about this because I have zero rules knowledge so I thought I would bring it up here so smarter people than me can comment lol

[clever salmon]

I think having a super OP list like that could be fun to have, and break out once in a while

but only if you give your opponent a warning

[sonic laurel]

Totally agree!

[tough glacier]

Should I equip my Anti tank Contemptor with Autocannons? I'm in Imperial Fists.

[sacred dagger]

You're likely better off with the gravis lascannons

[tough glacier]

I have one of each.

[sacred dagger]

The statline isn't really great against heavy vehicles since it's only 3 shots, and against other dreads the 2+ save will likely bounce off

[tough glacier]

Yeah.

[sonic laurel]

@spice halo I am wondering since you were explaining to me previously about the Apothecaries, I am wondering if you can explain this paragraph better to me from the Loyalist book?

It just seems like a weird distinction to me......the way I understand this is that the Apothecary can't join a unit that has the above sub type or character, but those can join a unit with an apothecary?

[devout mason]

@sonic laurel
It prevents an Apothecary or a Techmarine to join a Command Squad.

Or any other Retinue

[sonic laurel]

Ah ok! That makes sense! Lol I was just confused being like "ok so I have to declare the Apothecary being in this unit before I declare Fafnir being part of the same unit? That seems odd" lol

[devout mason]

Its a bit confusing but seems to be intended that you can buff a Command Squad only with a Primus Medicae

[sonic laurel]

Thank you for the explanation! Greatly appreciated!

[tough glacier]

For my 2.0 army, should I get a 10 man Missile Launcher HSS or a 5 man TSS and a 5 man ML HSS?

[gentle galleon]

If it’s ok with y’all, can we move further discussions to a dedicated Imperial Fist Tactica so we don’t end up hijacking Geek & Whiskers’ thread?

[sonic laurel]

I was thinking of changing this to that anyway because my questions have been answered lol :p if I can that is

Imperial Fists - List HelpTheorycrafting

Imperial Fists - List Help & Theorycrafting

Done! This thread is now for all things Imperial Fists! Discuss away my brothers and sisters! <@&877302776814796841>

[safe radish]

Dorn.
Beard or no beard?

[sonic laurel]

I mean beards are always good

[gentle galleon]

I vote beard, or at least a 5 o’clock shadow.

[gentle galleon]

I think ml’s are an ok choice, but it’s overshadowed other choices.

Volume of shots… heavy bolter, auto cannon, iliastus
Armor pen… lascannon, melta
General killiness… volkite, plasma

[tough glacier]

Thanks.

[livid surge]

What is the best choice for a spartan for my list? Like what weapons I suppose.

[sonic laurel]

Speaking of Spartans, how does armour work in HH? Like how do you know if your weapons are going to do damage? I pre-ordered the rule book so I know the answer will be there, but I like to go through my list and prepare on how to deal with Spartans, because I know a lot of people are going to have them given the starter box lol

[sonic laurel]

I'm not the best person to answer really since I'm new to the game in general, but based on what I've been told for my list (no Spartans but still applicable), probably Lascannons and Multi-meltas.

But hopefully other more experienced players can give you better answers and reasons why

But one thing I do know is that magnets are your friend in this hobby that way you can change your loadout depending on how you feel or what list your against and not stuck to how you glued it (lots of experience with my T'au lol)

[gentle galleon]

It depends on your “meta.” I hate that word. I don’t like being “that guy” with a super optimized list. They’re fun to bring out once in a while, but Horus Heresy is all about telling the story.

With that said, I like the laser cannon array for my Warders because I can move them up the board aggressively. The destroyers have their place, too (exoshock is yummy).

I like the heavy bolters, because we’re IF, and it’s a good defensive weapon.

Pinole mounted multi melta for vehicle hunting or Iliastus for everything else.

[devout mason]

Weapon Strength + 1d6 in general.
Same as Armor value is a glancing Hit, above Armor value a penetrating Hit.

For the Spartan.
Its an expensive tank, so i wouldnt add much as it is a prime target for the enemy

[sonic laurel]

Ok that makes sense! Thank you!

Follow up question; how does AP come into play then? Will that reduce the armor value of the target like normal?

[clever salmon]

Honestly I'd tend to just take it stock, maybe take a hull mounted lascannon. 5 lascannon attacks is pretty scary! It lets your transport also do the work of a heavy support squad

[clever salmon]

Tanks dont really have saves like infantry. So as Corsair said, 1d6+STrength to determine if you hurt them. If you fail to hurt, or if you glance (Meet their armour) then AP doesnt come into play.

If you do penetrate (Surpass armour) then you roll a d6 on a table to see what happens:
1-3: Crew shaken (Shooting at BS1 for a turn)
4: crew stunned (Shaken + can't move for a turn)
5: blow up a weapon
6: Immobilize the vehicle
7+ : Vehicle's destroyed.

Obviously you can't get a 7+, but that's where AP comes into play. AP2 gives you +1, AP1 gives you +2. So an AP1 weapon that rolls a 4 will actually roll a 6, and immobilize the vehicle. A 5+ just destroys it immediately

Given that meltas will basically penetrate 100% of the time, and destroy the vehicle outright 33% of the time, meltas are fucking scary and I highly recommend screening that spartan

[sonic laurel]

Cool! Thank you for the explanation!

[clever salmon]

happy to help!

[tough glacier]

I've got 20 Tacs, a Breacher squid, 10 extra tac bodies (and the support and Heavy weapons kit), along with a Spartan, Contemptor, Vindicator, 10 Cataphractii, Fafnir Rann, a Vindicator, 5 Scouts with Sniper Rifles, a Vigilator, and a Centurion. What should I do with my 10 spare dudes?

For 2.0

I also have another 5 I'd converted into Templar Brethren, but I'm not sure what to do with them, either.

[gentle galleon]

Here’s my mechanized list…

HQ
Fafnir Rann…175

Troops
Phalanx Warder Squad…425
+10, Vexilla, Sergeant (AA, SPG)

Phalanx Warder Squad…265
PG x2, Vexilla, Sergeant (AA, TH)

Phalanx Warder Squad…265
PG x2, Vexilla, Sergeant (AA, TH)

Elites
Apothecary Detachment…195
X3, VGSx3

Contemptor Dreadnought Talon…625
Contemptor1
VDC, GPFwMg
Contemptor2
VDC, GPFwMg
Contemptor3
VDC, GPFwMg

Heavy Support

Leviathan Dreadnought Talon…325
Leviathan1
PD, TLVC, CML, LSDwM

Deredeo Dreadnought Talon…225
Deredeo1
AML, AHLB

Legion Land Raider Proteus Carrier Squadron…500
Proteus1
HmTlL, PmMM, HKM
Proteus2
HmTlL, PmMM, HKM

[tough glacier]

If possible, please LMK.

[spare hound]

Here's a very basic question: Are heavy bolters good for anything? I happen to have 10 because I have 50 MKIII and 50 MKIV kits, and I just think they look neat.

From what I've heard the universal opinion on heavy weapons is "just do lascannons instead."

[devout mason]

10 Heavy Bolters are cheap and get the LA Bonus for Fists, so you can bring some hurt.
The problem is the Volkite Culverin.
For 5 ppm its to cheap so the Heavy Bolter cant compete in the same niche

[spare hound]

Do they have the same exact targets?

[devout mason]

Yes.
And for 5 Points you get more range, more shots, higher strength and deflagerate

[spare hound]

Oh well that's a shame.

Are autocannons worth anything? I'll inevitably get some when I buy the set with lascannons in it, and they benefit from the imperial fist bonus since they're an auto- weapon

[devout mason]

They do ok against smaller tanks etc.

[primal pollen]

Can anyone tell me what are the best loadouts for a contemptor talon?

[tough glacier]

What do you want them to do?

[primal pollen]

Anti infantry mainly

I think the plasma cannon looks cool

But i dont know how they compare in power

[devout mason]

Plasma is nice with the 5" template

[tough glacier]

Autocannon is solid, Heavy Bolter, and Assault Cannons are good for it.

[devout mason]

Double Fist and melee is pretty good anti Infantry and anti Dreadnaught

[primal pollen]

Is the one attack really worth losing a ranged weapon?

[devout mason]

I played my Dread with Power Fist / Chainfist with 2 Grav Guns and Havoc Launcher in 1.0 and it did well.

Your main target with that setup are Vehicles and Elite Infantry like Terminators.

For 3+ Infantry i wouldnt use a Dread.

[primal pollen]

Can contemptors take grav guns?

I cant find them

Ah

You mean the fist mounted ones?

And what would you recommend against mass marines?

[gentle galleon]

For 2.0 contemptors , I like volkite for going up against regular marines, an even plink off a terminator or two. Vehicle hunting, multi melta or grav.

Back in 1.0, I walked up a trio of dreads armed with claws and gravs, backed up by a leviathan, and a deredeo. The list was out right aggressive (NL TA list).

[tough glacier]

Depends on the unit.

[devout mason]

In what form?
Tanks, Dreads, Infantry?

I tend to play my Fists rather aggressiv.
But for clearing alot of 3+ saves?
Templar Bretheren. They chop anything with a 3+ save into pieces

[primal pollen]

Thanks!

[devout mason]

For shooting Volkite is still good.

[tough glacier]

What's good for TSS with the plastic kit in 2.0?

[gentle galleon]

Plasma, volkite, or melta depending on what role you’d want from them.

[gentle galleon]

Do you want to take them as Seekers or Recon, instead? Nemesis/Kraken bolters are auto weapons, so benefit from the IF Legion Rule.

Come to think of it…Have y’all considered an aggressive Recon Force for IF

[tough glacier]

I do want a TSS unit.

[tough glacier]

I hadn't. It's interesting.

Bayonets or Chain Bayonets on IF Tacs?

[devout mason]

I would add Rotor Cannons. The are Auto weapons and got Pinning and shellshock

[devout mason]

Recons with shotguns and outflank werent bad in 1.0