#Thousand sons - 2.0 theorycrafting

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ivory walrus
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That's just stacking rules to create something unfun, it's still arguably rules as intended. Osirions getting a core discipline if they skip the 15pt upgrade for an arcana is not

nocturne cove
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Ahriman no...

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They got him too

hoary marten
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he gets corvidae

nocturne cove
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Didn't he used to get two cults as well?

ivory walrus
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Nah was only every corvidae

nocturne cove
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Amon got two cults in 1.0

ivory walrus
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Amon was special because they didn't want to do a special recon cult

nocturne cove
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Ahriman has lost his cabal rule It seems

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Just reading the inferno rules right now

ivory walrus
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His command squad was super cool

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It was always weird that command squads couldn't buy ML like vets could

nocturne cove
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Mastery level 2 as well

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It really does seem like they have more just put restrictions on khenetai but made their power work regardless of unit sizes

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ivory walrus
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I do really like their changes. I think they are really good now, especially in ZM. All that's holding them back is the power cannot be used while embarked

nocturne cove
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Cannot use it whilst embarked. Cannot use it if joined by a unit that doesn't have mindsong. Don't get instant death anymore. But are strength 6 ap3 rending 6+

ivory walrus
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Losing instant death isn't the biggest of deals multiple wounds wasn't exactly common last edition

nocturne cove
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The rending threat makes them scary to terminators and tanks at least

ivory walrus
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If they charge anything with a 3+ you may as well just remove their target without rolling to save time

nocturne cove
ivory walrus
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@nocturne cove I've not got time to check atm but my mate has said that Sehkmet and Khenetai would get powers too because they start with psyker and don't get it from the legion rule

nocturne cove
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No I don't think they would because they can upgrade to have one and Khenhetai have a power already

hoary marten
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khenetai get a power not a discipline

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so if they take this option they wont be able to use their unique power

rigid narwhal
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So, Achea, and Vanilla Thousand Sons Contemptors 😄

nocturne cove
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Would a vanilla contemptor get psyker by default?

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Given its infantry and cavalry only

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Unless contemptors are infantry?

rigid narwhal
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Well...I guess not, but Osirons wouldn't get a free power, then, unless they're units greater than 1.

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Because solo units get access to Magus

nocturne cove
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It still seems incredibly not RAI

ivory walrus
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Nope, it only works if the psyker sub type is innate and they don't get an discipline already

ivory walrus
nocturne cove
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140 points doesn't seem like it would be enough to justify it

rigid narwhal
nocturne cove
hoary marten
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I could some how justify if they had 2 disciplines

ivory walrus
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Nothing gets 2 disciplines other than named characters

nocturne cove
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Tech marine with khenetai for a 2+ save?

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Or apothecary for a 5+++ save

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Tech marine could also take a thunder hammer...

wispy forge
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how does the tech marine give them a 2+?

nocturne cove
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Apparently that's one of the tech marine abilities from what leak chat said

wispy forge
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oh cool

nocturne cove
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I guess if you wanted to you could still put him in the squad for a heavy weapon

wispy forge
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I think the fnp might be a bit better tho

nocturne cove
# wispy forge I think the fnp might be a bit better tho

Im not sure you're limited to either one or the other is the thing reading that covenant rule...

It just says you can't have more than one tech marine in one unit. And I assume the same can be said for apothecary and other apothecary.

You can't stack one of the same but nothing says you can't have one of each it seems...

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Apothecary is absolutely an auto take though.

Tech marine could be a nice beat stick

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And because of mindsong blades his hammer could be weapon skill 5

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You could also give him a boarding shield and using him for pinging invulnerable saves off of

hoary marten
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use him to take the perils

wispy forge
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are you able to save the wounds from perils with an invuln save?

hoary marten
wispy forge
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oh sick!

hoary marten
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its probably the reason why sekhmet dont have adamantium will

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be no point unless it was 3+

nocturne cove
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Does adamantine will affect perils of the warp?

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Interesting that you can allocate perils of the warp to non psykers...

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Doesn't affect us really but pretty weird that a space wolves librarian is basically immune to perils in a squad of 20 guys

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Just throw them at the mooks

nocturne cove
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Unless in the future they plan to give thousand sons tanks a psyker ability?

near gust
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Minor Arcana are infantry only ?

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I mean... Every other freaking legion vehicles got the legion bonus no ?

hoary marten
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There might be a knight psyker down the line

nocturne cove
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Can we even take knights or allies for knights

hoary marten
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Think knights might be agents of the emperor/warmaster

nocturne cove
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I hope so... no other bloody use for that rule

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Unless you want a navigator

ivory walrus
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Previously it was mechanicum for knight allies, I'd expect it'll still be the same

near gust
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In which World aren't TS sworn brother with the mechanicus ?

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I mean, they had their own freaking forgeworld and almost their own legio titanicus.

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TS are literally sworn brother with nobody. Sad.

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Meanwhile Salamanders

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"We frend"

coarse hill
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Wait I feel like I've missed a lot, what's the deal with their this psyker wording thing?

rigid narwhal
keen jackal
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What's the consensus for game size? Is the standard still going to be 3k?

hoary marten
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2k to 3k I would guess

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Can't even bring magnus at 2k so whats the point in playing at that level

nocturne cove
keen jackal
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Here's a theory crafted 3k list of of stuff I want to try and field.

3k axis of dissolution.
Ahriman (warlord)
Vigilator, achean force sword (athanean)
1x10 seekers, AA, nemesis bolters (athanean)
2x20 breachers, asphyx, AA (raptora)
1x10 rotor cannons, AA, (athanean)
2x10 aether fire blasters, AA, (corvidae)
1x10 khenatai, AA
Spartan
3 rhinos with dozer blades for support squads
Apothecaries (pavoni), 5 normal in support squads and breachers, 1 with achean force sword in khenatai

OR

I could swap the vigilator and seekers for an aether fire moritat, 10 destroyers and a jump pack apothecary. Trade out the home sitting snipers for an up close and personal threat.

hoary marten
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Any of those units have line?

keen jackal
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The breacher bricks do

nocturne cove
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Breachers I think have line

keen jackal
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Normal tacticals are a bit cheaper, get a bonus shot from fury, a 4+++ with heart of the legion and the apothecary nearby objectives, and potentially shred from chain bayonets, but raptora breachers still have that juicy 4++ and still have a 5+++ with the apo

hoary marten
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The spartan for the khenati?

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or for a block of breachers

keen jackal
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Yep there isn't really another good assault vehicle choice for them besides a normal raider and the Spartan is now in plastic so I'll get one

nocturne cove
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Proteus is assault vehicle still in p3

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And storm eagles

hoary marten
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Khenatai are weird with assault vehicles since do you really want them charging in without their power

keen jackal
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Charging in without their power is better than them footslogging across the board and dying to plasma fire before they swing. They'll still cleave through any power armor and maybe some terminators if they're full strength without their power, then when they take some casualties on the return, they can regain some efficiency with mindsong.

hoary marten
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True I was thinking of shoving them in a rhino

keen jackal
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They can't disembark and charge from a rhino though unfortunately. If you wanted speed with them, they need an assault vehicle I think.

hoary marten
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Yeah but I wasnt gonna charge, thinking of hiding them went they get out so they can get their power

keen jackal
# nocturne cove Proteus is assault vehicle still in p3

And you are absolutely right, they could totally go inside a Proteus, which would save me a bunch of points. I don't even have the 7th apothecary or artificer armor on any. Since I'm not forking over points for the flare shield that might be a good choice then. 1 less hull point and more for the rest of the force

keen jackal
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Obvious weak points in the list are that it's lacking in serious anti tank besides the laser destroyers on the Spartan, unless I can get achean force off on the plasma and roll 6s to wound. The points could go into something else besides the seekers but I think the idea is neat and I want to try it out. Besides infantry wins games and the list kills and controls infantry decently well.

nocturne cove
keen jackal
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There isn't really any difference between the Spartan in heavy support and the Proteus as a DT though, right? Unless I was already at 3 HS slots and wanted a heavy transport option?

nocturne cove
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I guess yeah

coarse hill
rigid narwhal
coarse hill
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Ah right, so non arcana stuff. Gotta say I'm a bit sick of completely broken RAW from GW.

coarse hill
rigid narwhal
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So....seriously considering Pride of the Legion and running Vets instead of standard Tacs in Rhinos. 2W is pretty nice for not dying to miscasts

coarse hill
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Vet spam gives you a lot of decent all rounders who can score

rigid narwhal
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I'm tempted to just give them Asphyx shells and roll em out

coarse hill
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What cult are you thinking?

rigid narwhal
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Between Pavoni and Corvidae, probably. They're not assaulting.

coarse hill
rigid narwhal
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They don't get achean force, so not worth

coarse hill
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Still decent to counter punch into power armour

rigid narwhal
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they're not counterpunching, they're standing there and holding the trigger down

coarse hill
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They're still somewhat likely to get charged by something and 10pts for a bit of ability to clap back I think is fine

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Anyway in corvidae you probably want a special or heavy weapon right? What are you feeling

rigid narwhal
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Naw, just bolters

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as low to the ground on points as possible

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215 point unit

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250 even with a Rhino

coarse hill
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And just spam out as many as possible?

rigid narwhal
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3-4 units, yeh

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walk an Osiron around with them to stun anything that wants to charge

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well...2 Osirons

coarse hill
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Still leaves a good half the list open

rigid narwhal
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Yep

coarse hill
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For the FA I'm liking sky hunters

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Get some anti armour in

rigid narwhal
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Aetherfire support tac squads

coarse hill
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Probably worth an apoth per vet squad too right

rigid narwhal
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Probably.

coarse hill
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Do you think scoring tartaros raptora/pavoni have legs in pride?

rigid narwhal
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Nope. Not even bothering.

coarse hill
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With biomancy on them seems like they could be a decent threat no?

rigid narwhal
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I'd rather have the consistency of the aetherfire squads.

coarse hill
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I mean I agree they seem great but you probably have the points for both right

rigid narwhal
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You don't have slots for both.

coarse hill
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The list lacks melee atm it seems

rigid narwhal
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Not with 2 Osirons and some Castellax it doesn't.

coarse hill
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Oh that's true actually you are running out of troops as well

coarse hill
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The castellax that is. Aetherfire I guess?

rigid narwhal
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yep

coarse hill
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I might try and put together a list later

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I guess the question is, is it necessarily better than axis breacher spam. Guess it's a lot more mobile thanks to rhinos

rigid narwhal
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2 Osirons
2 Castellax
4 Apoths
4 Bolter Vets w/ Rhinos
2 TSS
2500 points even

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500 points for characters

coarse hill
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So like, could you do more by dropping to breachers or tacs instead of vets is my thought? You get a decent chunk of points freed up from that

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Can fit more castellax, some melta bikes, etc

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I guess breachers are very dependent on hitting raptora power

rigid narwhal
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Could you? Yes. Do you need to? Probably not.

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Praetor + Librarian + Chaplain is 395 points

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all the characters and the Osirons have Athanaen and Telepathy

coarse hill
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For pinning shenanigans?

rigid narwhal
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Yep

coarse hill
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So it becomes a q of how to fill the points

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Also is a Libby not worse than a chaplain?

rigid narwhal
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Psychic Hood

coarse hill
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Ahhh

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Gotta say I am pretty amused this thread has come full circle to "how can vets be used" again lol

rigid narwhal
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More like "Why Sekhmet suck and I'd rather have Vets"

coarse hill
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Still pleased I don't have to paint an entirely new army to have something remotely viable

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Even if the termies are shelf warming now

rigid narwhal
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so, if you really want, you can just give all the sergeants and Apoths Achean Force and you're at 2995

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or don't on some of the sergeants and take Augury Scanners

coarse hill
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Though are apoths only 1attack?

rigid narwhal
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2

coarse hill
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Hmm

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Better than investing in a vet

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I think force on the sarge is definitely a good investment

rigid narwhal
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3 attacks, yeh

coarse hill
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Is dangerous terrain still immobilise?

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Dozer blades were a go to for me previously

rigid narwhal
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Not that you care. The squads move 7.

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or 10 with Pavoni

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Just drive em like you stole em

coarse hill
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Lol

rigid narwhal
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Their whole job is to floor it for objectives, hop out and use the rhino to moveblock

coarse hill
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Which tbh is scuppered a bit if it gets immobilised out the gate

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Not a terrible use of 20pts

rigid narwhal
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Just don't start it in terrain

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Only one, maybe two want to make it to the other side of the board anyway

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And you spam pinning on anything trying to cross midboard

coarse hill
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Actually hang on, can you give one guy per squad nemesis and use corvidae on him?

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Wait no point same buff

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But one guy per squad a special or heavy could work

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Then pavoni apoth

rigid narwhal
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if you don't want a power weapon, sure

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you basically have 105 points of goodies to play around with

coarse hill
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How much are the achean forces on each vet sarge?

rigid narwhal
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10 points

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free upgrade for a power weapon

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Nemesis Bolter, 10 points

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Missiles, 15

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well, 9 and 14, actually, taking into account not being able to have Asphyx

coarse hill
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Oh you're asphyxing the lot

rigid narwhal
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Yep

coarse hill
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Guess it's 50% more wounds Vs t4

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Grav any good any more?

rigid narwhal
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Prob not worth for 15 on these squads

coarse hill
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Missiles do seem the way to go, if not just more plasma

rigid narwhal
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Both sound options.

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Corvidae Missiles can snipe T4 characters

coarse hill
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Nem bolters do have inherent pinning actually, does that matter?

rigid narwhal
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So do MLs

coarse hill
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Only on frag though

rigid narwhal
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Doesn't really matter. AP 5 and 6 re the same vs 3+

coarse hill
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Yeah true

rigid narwhal
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and you might get more hits with the Frag shell

keen jackal
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Started to roll some dice thinking about combos, I'm really liking pyrae assault destroyers. Pricier than assault squads, but damn do they feel good.

2A base, +1 for charging, +1 for 2 ccw, +1 hammer of wrath from jump pack, +2 hammer of wrath pyrae. That's 7 attacks per body all against -1T from rad grenades, 4 of which reroll to wound. If you get the charge off. Just the chainsword attacks alone kill 8 3+ save marines on their own. They average about 3.5 unsaved wounds to a 2+ save dread as well, which is good for finishing something off after the moritat dumps his aether fire pistols into them.

rigid narwhal
coarse hill
rigid narwhal
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Kinda amused that Asphyx Vets are basically 3rd Edition Rubrics

keen jackal
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Really? Even though it's two instances of the same rule with different values? I'd assume you'd get the normal hammer of wrath and the flame weapon hammer of wrath both triggering from the charge, not that you'd have to choose one or the other. The rules aren't stacking, you're not getting 3 attacks with the flame type, you're getting 2 and 1.

near gust
coarse hill
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HoW does not explicitly state they stack

keen jackal
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Do any of the variable rules explicitly say they stack?

coarse hill
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Not really reviewed tbh. Its loosely worded you could certainly argue its not stacking but just implementing both, but I think it's loose in a way that you could argue the same for any variable rule so seems relatively clear cut to me

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Another instance of our cult rules being borked and not taking account of interactions

coarse hill
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@rigid narwhal am building the pride list now and am only hitting 2800 or so

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what am I missing?

ivory walrus
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Sehkmet do the same, which is hilarious because it makes the upgrade to gain a discipline useless as you'd not be able to cast it if you used their psyker type to gain one for free

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The rules also never call an arcana a 'Psychic Power' so they can still use that. It's an 'upgrade' but each arcana does call it a 'power' but not 'psychic power'. Obviously the intention is that it is a psychic power but if you're taking 10 disciplines in a single unit I'm not sure you care at that point

nocturne cove
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"If this option is used this model may not gain or use any other psyker powers or psyker weapons from any other source."

nocturne cove
nocturne cove
# ivory walrus Sehkmet do the same, which is hilarious because it makes the upgrade to gain a d...

According to the same core disciplines rule because they have the ability to purchase a power in their data sheet they have to use that instead of taking a core discipline. This is also what disallows the osirion from doing this.

The only model that actually seems to benefit in this arguably exploitative manner is the Achea Castellax which has no ability to purchase any powers and thus is a psyker with no disciplines or psyker powers as force by itself is not a power.

ivory walrus
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Ah I'd missed the gain, I think Sehkmet still apply but they would lose their arcana depending on your reading of arcana being psychic powers or not

nocturne cove
rigid narwhal
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also asphyx shells on the vets and a magna aetherfire cannon on the Osirons

frosty plaza
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Have we seen anything about Axis of Dissolution?

nocturne cove
nocturne cove
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Can librarians take paragon blades?

rigid narwhal
nocturne cove
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But he can't take a hood. So I'm guessing not all on the same character

rigid narwhal
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right

nocturne cove
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Would be cool if they could...

frosty plaza
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What does the hood do?

nocturne cove
frosty plaza
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Right

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Sounds good but it's a pricey upgrade to get one

hoary marten
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Thousand sons need a unit that can snipe to deal with them

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Cause all fails causing perils

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All fails cause *

coarse hill
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what else did you have in there?

rigid narwhal
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ah. 10-man tac supports

coarse hill
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ahhhh

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that makes more sense

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with 10s kinda makes me want to take rhinos for them

nocturne cove
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Any rhino that eats a lascannon or something is one less lascannon pointed at what's important

rigid narwhal
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I'm taking Pavoni on the TSS, so they can zip around pretty well

hoary marten
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Get that extra +1 for the charge

nocturne cove
rigid narwhal
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Tac Support Squads

coarse hill
rigid narwhal
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Naw, their job is to just ID terminators.

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or kill transports

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Heck, their rending shots threaten Land Raiders

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use the MLs on the vet squads to snipe characters

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It's really easy in listbuilding to want everything to handle everything, but that's a points sink trap.

frosty plaza
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I have a potentially stupid question

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With all the talk about athanaen snipers, do you really need athanaen on nemesis bolters? Because they're snipers so all their wounds are precision shots anyway

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Or am I missing something important here

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Is it just to be able to allocate your rending wounds to the sergeant first?

nocturne cove
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You don't need athanean I don't think unless you want to absolutely make sure someone you want to die, dies.

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Oh wait sorry I meant corvidae

keen jackal
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Corvidae lets you allocate shots, athanean gives LD penalties. On snipers it helps with pinning, same with rotor cannons. Stick a vigilator in a seeker squad and now you've got a great sniper unit that pins what it shoots at very well.

nocturne cove
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Athanean might be a better choice honestly just because of the pinning check. Yeah

keen jackal
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With the vigilator's shell shock 2, they'll get like a -3 to their pinning, -4 if the seekers cast the minor arcana as well. It's pretty sweet and does more actual damage than a rotor cannon squad I think.

nocturne cove
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It probably does yeah.

Will be pretty nice in a recon army

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I guess fluff wise you can say theyre the Ammitara occult

rigid narwhal
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You can give the Vigilator telepathy, too

keen jackal
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This is true, and if you really need to pin a unit, you can cast the psychic weapon too. Though I'd assume the -3 of the master sniper weapon plus the rending damage is better there.

coarse hill
# coarse hill

Oh btw what disciplines and Arcana did you take @rigid narwhal

rigid narwhal
weary turtle
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So what's the general consensus on 1ksons? I'm seeing a lot of varied reactions. Strong? Weak? Balanced? A bit confused?

shrewd turret
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Fine, but worse than before

nocturne cove
# weary turtle So what's the general consensus on 1ksons? I'm seeing a lot of varied reactions....

It leaves a lot to be desired and the writing is shoddy and unnecessarily confusing.

To put it in perspective it's taken all of us here collectively over a week and a half through debate and discussion to determine what exactly the writers meant when they wrote the rules and even then not everything is entirely clear exactly given we have an incomplete understanding of the new base line rule book as we only have a phase 3 leak copy to go off of which isn't the final product and thus open to change still.

Not to mention there is major talk of an FAQ coming either day 1 or close to day 1 that may change the wording of a lot of things again so all this debate to determine the meaning might ultimately not matter as everything changes again

weary turtle
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Ugh, sadly I'm not surprised. Disappointing frankly as they've had a long time to get it all sorted.

Have the rites of war leaked yet? The 1ksons rules are vastly different in the leak vs the old playtest rules, so I imagine the rites have changed too.

nocturne cove
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Negative..no final rites of war leak. Only a p1 leak

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I did want to pose an interesting theory here from last night.

So quite a few units are missing from the new books. Casterferrum dreadnoughts or boxnaughts for example. Or legion basilisk tanks despite the model literally still being produced right now. And the iron warriors traits literally mentioning legion basilisk and medusa in their ruleset.

Anyways this lends credence to the fact there are several units removed from the main books but ultimately it seems they have plans to be added back in via a legends or PDF system maybe?

Meaning there might still be hope for the Ammitara Intercession occult cabal

coarse hill
ivory walrus
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I wonder if the pdf is just because they hit the page limit for the printers they use. That's what happened with book 9

rigid narwhal
nocturne cove
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Pinning greatly reduces a lot of the abilities of certain units in the game to do pretty much anything.

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Reliable pinning is almost as useful as outright killing a unit

rigid narwhal
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In some cases more useful when you can control sections of the board with it.

frosty plaza
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So Axis of Dissolution is gone

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Instead we get a rite where you can take Castellax-Achea as troops, they get line, and you can fob your Perils of the Warp on to them

coarse hill
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Pinning wise I guess you need to be sure you can take out vehicles given your can't pin them.

coarse hill
frosty plaza
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I think GotCK was too popular not to get rid of

coarse hill
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The perils passing is super good tbh

coarse hill
frosty plaza
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True but you can charge off deep strike now

coarse hill
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Oh new to the final version? That does make it more interesting

frosty plaza
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It was discussed before ( and I think it was in playtest as well)

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You can't charge off a drop pod assault unless you arrive in an assault vehicle (which is only the kharybdis now, not the dreadclaw)

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But you can charge off a regular deep strike assault

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Plus GotCK gives up to 6 units entirely comprised of infantry DS, so doesn't have to be just terminators anymore

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You could run it with khenetai, assault marines, rotor cannon squads, etc

coarse hill
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Pretty good for just massed breachers tbh, drop into raptora range and have an apoth for HoW pyrae

frosty plaza
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Yup

nocturne cove
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The Thousand Sons have two Rites of War

The Achaean Configuration lets you pick Castellax-Achaea Automata as Troops choices, and you can shunt all of your perils results off onto them if they’re within 12″. Those models are considered to have the line sub-type while they’re near friendly Thousand Sons Psykers. Your cost for this is that your Castellax units have to have more than one model, and your detachment has to include at least one Legion Techmarine Covenant and at least one Consularis with the Legion Praevian upgrade.
The Guard of the Crimson King lets you pick up to six Infantry units in your Detachment to gain the Deep Strike special rule. When these are deployed as part of a Deep Strike Assault, they get the Fear (1) rule for the rest of the turn. On top of this, your Sekhment Cabals are troops. As a cost, you have to include either Magnus, Ahriman, or a Praetor upgraded to have a psychic discipline. Which, fine – you were going to do that anyways. Also you can’t use this with an allied detachment.

rigid narwhal
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Upside to Guard is it helps with all the Intercept reactions, I suppose, since things within 6" of a deep striking unit have to take a pinning test.

nocturne cove
rigid narwhal
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Yes

frosty plaza
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And they cause fear (1) the turn they arrive which makes pinning better

rigid narwhal
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AOE pinning might actually be solid

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also you probably don't want to nuke the squads you want to charge out of DS since failing morale and falling back negates pinning

rigid narwhal
#

Oof....Osirons bopped. Paying points for +2S -1 Brutal. 😦

#

...on a test

#

Basic Dread CCW is S9, AP2, Brutal(3)

#

Looks like no change to the Psychic Power + Achea interaction

nocturne cove
nocturne cove
#

What did we see then a pre release?

rigid narwhal
nocturne cove
#

"Oh yeah they can cast psyker powers...

Also they're line"

#

"Oh and we WANT you to take as many as you can"

rigid narwhal
#

Given it's GW....who knows

frosty plaza
#

So what's the exploit with Castellax-Achea then?

#

I feel like I've missed something

nocturne cove
# frosty plaza So what's the exploit with Castellax-Achea then?

They're a psyker that is not infantry or calvary thus doesn't gain cult from our legion. But also doesn't have any means of obtaining psyker powers in its ruleset.

Meaning as a default psyker unit type with no psyker powers per the core disciplines rule a psyker with no disciplines or psyker abilities listed it can buy or upgrade to may take a single core discipline instead but cannot gain any payker powers or abilities from any other sources beyond this.

Meaning for all intent of purpose... the achean castellax is a psyker with one core discipline.

And you can take multiple of them in a squad.

rigid narwhal
#

and it's a per-model distinction in the core book

nocturne cove
#

Oh also force doesn't count as a psyker power either so it can use its weapons

ivory walrus
#

Am I missing something obvious again? The achea RoW "A Castellax Achea model in a Detachment with this Rite of War is considered to have the Line Sub-type as long as that model is within 6" of a friendly model with both the Legiones Astartes (Thousand Sons) special rule and the Psyker Sub-type" that condition is always true; achea have both psyker and LA TSons and will obviously always be with 6" of itself

rigid narwhal
#

Nope, you're not missing anything

#

They're always line while there's 2+ of them

ivory walrus
#

A model is always considered within range of itself though? So it'll self trigger even when there's only one left

rigid narwhal
#

I guess so.

ivory walrus
#

So in light of this new RoW what's the unit size to go for with castellax? Even with the oversights fixed it'll be fun to play. I'm thinking units of 3

rigid narwhal
#

Could go units of 4 and just run them around as S/T 10

coarse hill
#

In that row I was thinking like 4-5x 2

coarse hill
rigid narwhal
#

So the Osiron pays for a weapon that without testing is just worse, and with testing is a sidegrade at best

ivory walrus
#

2 units of 5 seems like a big points sink, splitting into 3 units would give more flexibility but at that point is getting close to half the list

coarse hill
#

No proper force on it then?

coarse hill
rigid narwhal
coarse hill
#

Can't have nice things

#

Does that change your overall feelings on the osiron then Otter?

rigid narwhal
#

Not entirely, because I think it's still a nice Telepathy platform

#

but it does suck paying +25 points for a 4+ invuln and a worse weapon

coarse hill
#

Mmmm

#

At least we can get the good plasma cannon on it

ivory walrus
#

The normal contemptor can take aether magna plas too

rigid narwhal
#

^

coarse hill
#

Ugh

rigid narwhal
#

and 2 of them if you wanna be spicy

ivory walrus
#

On aether plas I'm not sure it's worth while on the castellax, the bolt cannon seems more reliable

rigid narwhal
#

Well....until you think about bigger units of them

#

one test activates them all

ivory walrus
#

That's more of a downside, there's no risk to achean force so it's all or nothing

#

5 rolls means you can't whiff a single test and end up with 5 worse plasma cannons

coarse hill
#

I guess it depends how much other plasma you have

rigid narwhal
ivory walrus
#

Yeah that's my point, you fail a single test and all your plas is now str 6

coarse hill
#

It's more swingy to just have one unit

rigid narwhal
#

So your bolt cannons are always S6 and just have shred

ivory walrus
#

If it was test per model it'd massively slow the game down but it would also mean less chance of having the whole unit miss the str boost

#

Wounding marines on 2s rerolling

#

Where as activated aether plas gets the ID on multi wound

rigid narwhal
#

I think with small blast you're about as likely to get the same number of shots, and your plasma has rending

coarse hill
#

Small blasts are getting one hit per blast unless the opp hasn't properly spaced

rigid narwhal
#

Unless you're on TTS, there's somewhere they're probably clustered up.

#

also, you can scatter between models to hit 2+

#

just saying, the bolt cannon is probably a marginal difference in baseline damage

ivory walrus
#

Against 1 wound the bolt cannon probably does more, against 2 wounds or 2+ the plas is likely better

rigid narwhal
#

also the plas can threaten vehicles much better

#

But, same thing as with HSS. I think with just a couple you're probably fine taking the Bolt Cannons, but the blast weapons start to shine with a bunch of them

ivory walrus
#

Might do a unit of 5 with plas and 3 with bolt cannon

#

The question is; what to do with the mandatory praevian. Normal castellax are pretty boring by comparison, so guess vorax?

coarse hill
#

So you have to bring a unit with him? Hopefully gets faqed to achea if so

rigid narwhal
#

Praevian mandatory, I don't think the Castellax buddies are'

coarse hill
#

Don't necessarily need to bring extra automata for him then imo

#

Just use him as another caster

rigid narwhal
#

Yeah, just let him wander around.

#

He can be the guy casting Dome for your Achea, maybe

#

Divination is probably fine on a 5-man, too

ivory walrus
#

I think he has to bring a unit? In 1st he absolutely had to

rigid narwhal
#

He doesn't in 2nd

#

"May take....as part of the same force org slot"

#

He sounds like a good candidate for Dome anyway, because you kinda want him just standing near your robots

ivory walrus
#

Ah cool. LA TSons does nothing for MC so not much point in taking any

#

I haven't really looked closely at the disciplines yet

rigid narwhal
#

also, Dome has an 8" minimum range, so you can stand him 6" behind the robots to maximize the effectiveness

#

so everything outside engagement range shooting at them is on a 4++

#

and the dome never gets interrupted because wall of robots

coarse hill
#

He can't move if he casts it though so will probably fall behind over time I guess

rigid narwhal
#

It's a midboard thing anyway

#

you wall up, cast dome, do things, pass turn

#

then advance more with the robots to start punching things

coarse hill
#

I was wondering about splashing a dome caster in the vets list btw because it makes them a ton more durable to ap2-3

#

And Vs perils

rigid narwhal
#

also true

coarse hill
#

Like the other disciplines don't do that much but dome seemed very strong

#

I'm thinking rightly though that you can't get out of a vehicle and then cast it right

nocturne cove
#

I think you cast the dome instead of shooting

rigid narwhal
#

"Instead of moving"

nocturne cove
#

So you can move each turn and recast it

#

Oh is it moving now

rigid narwhal
#

Seems great if you're standing there with heavy weapons

#

also you can shield tanks with it

coarse hill
#

Does counts as moving still work on a model by model basis? Cos you could have him hiding behind a wall in the TSS for instance then they walk out to shoot whilst he casts, hopefully catching the tail end of the vet units too

nocturne cove
#

Really the dome power seems to work best with the largest model we can field that can cast psyker spells

#

Because you measure 8 inches from the base of the model right?

rigid narwhal
coarse hill
#

I think osirons want to be telepathy though, hallucination and plasma is too strong

nocturne cove
#

Like an osirion casting dome has a much larger area of significance than a character would

rigid narwhal
#

I don't think that's what you want an Osiron doing tho

ivory walrus
#

Or achea 🙃

coarse hill
#

I'd put dome on just random cents

rigid narwhal
#

you need it to melee something eventually

nocturne cove
ivory walrus
#

At least until it get's fixed

#

Given the track record it'll be 2025 before this book gets its first FAQ

rigid narwhal
#

Dome shielding tanks and heavy weapon squads seems pretty solid

nocturne cove
#

Man it's a good thing we don't have a psyker tank

ivory walrus
#

Do it with a forge lord and repair anything that does get through

coarse hill
#

Dome is also possibly the most reliable way to get a decent inv on infantry without it to insulate Vs perils

nocturne cove
#

A dome shield that started from a tank would be enormous

rigid narwhal
#

it's a shield vs anything outside the zone

nocturne cove
#

I mean yeah you don't wanna catch the enemy in it I know

ivory walrus
#

I can already see them adding a tank commander consul in a future expansion and accidentally giving us psychic tanks

coarse hill
#

You can just deploy something bigger further back to compensate though

nocturne cove
#

But for early game a tsons tank brigade being domed would he pretty good

rigid narwhal
#

and what's funny is its not wholly within

#

so you can have your tanks just touching into the bubble

coarse hill
#

Toe every squad in

nocturne cove
#

Wait CAN we get a psyker tank?

rigid narwhal
#

Nope.

ivory walrus
#

Does wholly within exist as a concept in 30k? Isn't that a firmly AoS thing?

ivory walrus
nocturne cove
#

I thought there was rules to make a tank a HQ choice in certain rites of war

#

Or is that not a thing anymore

rigid narwhal
ivory walrus
#

Yes but it doesn't get IC

nocturne cove
#

Like how a dreadnought can become a HQ

#

I see

rigid narwhal
coarse hill
#

"One nuance, however, is that you can pass the Perils wounds to other models in the unit (including non-Psykers), representing the Warp overtaking and gruesomely killing them. Vehicles take D3 Hull Points instead. No more Psykers exploding themselves T1. Put them in a big unit of Legionaries to absorb the wounds."

#

From goonhammers review. If this is true this is huge for us

ivory walrus
#

Phase 3 leak says it's true

unknown.png
coarse hill
#

That's super super nice so we don't immediately kill the sarge if we perils

#

Just a chump or two

rigid narwhal
#

or the apoth

nocturne cove
#

I feel like it should've been that you could only pass perils to other guys with the psyker rule as well.

That way at least the tsons legion trait and turning everyone into psykers would at least mean something more than just merely a slight distinction for the sakes of rules

#

And perils mitigation wouldn't be so easy for other legions.

coarse hill
#

This is where I'm at with my list so far (Pride of the Legion one Otter was suggesting basically) any thoughts? Stuff I wanted that doesn't fit: better melee hand guns on the dreads, chainswords for the vets, rhinos for the TSS, upgrading one chap to libby with hood

unknown.png
nocturne cove
#

If goon hammer is to be believed... you can deep strike and assault now.

#

Meaning that we could use drop pods or guard of the crimson King to teleport straight onto the field into melee

#

Only if the drop pod has the assault vehicle rule

rigid narwhal
# nocturne cove

You can. It's always been in there since we've first looked at the leaked rulebook. The issue most people were having is the drop pods.

#

well, that, and the Intercept reactions. But if you land close enough to pin the nearby units, all good, right?

nocturne cove
#

Wait hang on the way the cult arcana rules read do our ICs actually get minor cults...

#

They specifically state that models with infantry calvary and character rules must pick a minor cult.

#

But then end that sentence to go on to say that ics can buy discipline for 15 points

#

RAW would say they don't get a cult because of the poor way its written. RAI I think is supposed to be they do get cults...

#

This is using the reddit leaks wording unless that changed

pastel crest
#

Man, the more I read the new rule the more frustrating I got. It’s like the old 7th day they don’t even know how to word rules to avoid disputes.

nocturne cove
#

It's just the fact that sentence between character and IC ends as if they're two different effects

pastel crest
#

IC are considered as character sub type, no?

nocturne cove
#

If they are then all good but I don't know that for certain

#

Character refers to leaders,sargents etc

#

Independent characters refer to more specialised units that can join and leave squad's at will

hoary marten
#

character is a unit type while independent characters is a special rule

nocturne cove
#

Honestly again, this just outlines the fact that they could've solved this by having a list:

Can take a discipline:

ICs who are not psykers

Can't take a discipline:

Characters

ICS that are already psykers.

Can have a cult arcana:

Characters with the infantry or calvary subtype

Can't have a cult arcana:

ICs

Characters with the automated artillery or artillery types...

Can take achean force weapons;

Characters with the cult arcana traits

Can't take achean force weapons:

ICs

nocturne cove
pastel crest
#

No, I mean usually unit with IC special rule has the character unit type.

#

Is there any exception?

pastel crest
#

What do people think about 4++ parking bubble with dome power and high av tanks?

nocturne cove
#

It could work but board presence would be pretty slim and you'd basically relegate yourself to being a 6th edition imperial guard or tau parking lot army

#

@pastel crest

#

Also I think people would find you easily predictable potentially and plan outflanks and deep strikes to ruin you

pastel crest
#

Yeah I think we can use 4++ breacher bricks, osiron and achea as chaff to mess with opponents for wider broad control.

#

And yeah also cheap ICs to shoot pinning into enemy units.

coarse hill
#

I'm not missing something in that you can't get ICs outside of HQ right

pastel crest
#

Yeah that’s right.

rigid narwhal
#

alright, so given that Sekhmet are overcosted...What do we think of loadouts for them Cult/Power-wise?

#

Looking at Pyrae+Biomancy and Athanaen + Telepathy

keen jackal
#

Pavoni and biomancy sounds like fun. Counter the slower movement with pavoni and get S5/T5 terminators. Though they could just deepstrike in with guard of the crimson king, so it doesn't make as much sense. Honestly normal cataphractii are better in almost every way, you can go ham with twin lightning claws, the sekhmet have to keep their shooting weapon. Would be interesting, since they'd go up to 5A on the charge plus 2 HoW from pyrae. Put a biomancy HQ in there and boom, better sekhmet.

If you wanted to bring them, outside of the utility for deepstriking with guard of the crimson king, you'll need them to do something that can't be done by a regular squad with an attached IC. So maybe you have 3 HQ already and they HAVE to be going elsewhere. Like you're bringing Ahriman, Amon, and a Moritat. Then you can justify bringing the sekhmet if you plan on putting them into melee while under biomancy.

#

Yeah biomancy seems like the best choice there. At the very least You've got 3A from the sergeant at S10 rending 4+ to go into bigger stuff, and depending on what you wanted the other guys to do, with achean force and biomancy you've got S7 swords, S8 axes or lances, S9 mauls, or +1A S5 shredding rending 6+ claws. But again, if you plan on doing this, you could bring like a primus medicae with biomancy for a squad of normal cataphractii as well, and end up with nearly the same result.

#

If you could get achean force and biomancy off the lances look really good, an additional initiative, ID and ignoring power armor. Kind of mush into any other terminator unit but that's the name of the game there I think.

pastel crest
#

Maybe I’m crazy, but... TH Sekhmet?

coarse hill
#

speaking of, I am thinking right that given all halluc casters have BS5, it's average 5 hits, +1 for Athanean so LD8 units need to roll snake eyes to avoid getting pinned?

rigid narwhal
#

Yep, basically, unless they're Stubborn.

#

except Sekhmet, who are on BS4

coarse hill
#

Stubborn only ignores neg LD mods though, and Halluc mods the roll not LD (Athanean mods LD though)

#

but even without Athanean, it's still "roll 2-3 on 2D6 to pass" on average with BS5

rigid narwhal
#

Yeh. Pretty good.

coarse hill
#

each halluc cast is a near guaranteed pin on anything not fearless/immune to it

rigid narwhal
#

And vs a Stubborn target you just save yourself the Athanaen test

#

also Hallucinations has a pretty crazy range

coarse hill
#

does an embedded halluc IC need to shoot the same target as the unit though? And do you need to shoot halluc first so as not to trigger the pinning check with regular old shooting?

rigid narwhal
#

IC does need to shoot the same target, yeah. And pinning happens immediately after pinning weapons deal damage.

#

Morale tests are end of phase, though

coarse hill
#

right so if in vets you could shoot krak missile (with corvidae) to try and snipe the sarge, then bolters, then halluc to trigger the pinning test at ~+5 maybe with Athanaean too if not Stubborn

#

if they do fail morale are they still pinned?

nocturne cove
#

This guy with Hallucinations perhaps?

#

Oh wait the Hallucinations is a psyker weapon that might not work then

coarse hill
#

Sabo is Alphas only

nocturne cove
#

Oh is it? :/

coarse hill
#

and yeah I think it's one weapon only counting psychic shooting, so no point upgrading halluc users to have a decent gun

coarse hill
nocturne cove
#

Yeah I just saw. That's disappointing. Walking around the backline casting telepathic Fugue would be hilariously on brand for order of the blind

coarse hill
#

gotta love that 1k sons get no unique psy powers just minor arcana 🙃

nocturne cove
#

Unless you count mindsong of blades as one

rotund helm
#

oh wow this is totally the Thousand Sons tactica thread isn't it. I've missed it lol

#

I don't think a krak missile is sniping anyone, they will have 2+ on a sergeant. Meltagun maybe

rotund helm
pastel crest
#

which unit do people think is the best troop choice for tsons though, tsm or raptora breacher with apoth?

ivory walrus
#

Castellax Achea 🤣

pastel crest
#

Oh man I wish, haven’t bought enough in 1.0.

ivory walrus
#

You've seen the RoW that replaced axis right?

rotund helm
#

Lol it will take a lot to sell Castellax Achea to me. Even with a psyhic power each

ivory walrus
#

It makes achea troops and gives them line when within 12" of a psyker (achea are psykers)

rotund helm
#

tbh traditional tactical squad with apothecary for the 4+++ on objectives is probably strong.

ivory walrus
#

Yeah the 4+++ tacs are good but everyone gets them

#

Big unit of despoilers with pyrae could be good

rotund helm
#

raptora breachers for reachin out and claiming could work

ivory walrus
#

40 HoW before swinging, bonus points if you hit them with biomancy for s5/t5

pastel crest
#

I tend to not have faith in despoiler or asm since their performance are not really impressing for me.

#

You need b2b in engagement to trigger HoW right? 40 is the most ideal result.

ivory walrus
#

Yeah that's fair, getting everyone into b2b will probably never happen

rotund helm
#

unless you ace a deep strike

pastel crest
#

4++5+++ breachers sound good?

#

Have melta guns in it to snipe characters too

coarse hill
#

You need to get within 12" though and have an enemy move within 12 to be able to turn on the +1inv though right?

pastel crest
#

Well yeah but I think it’s easier to trigger when they are sitting on the objectives.

coarse hill
#

I like them in GotCK for that reason, easier to get in close before being shot at 5++

rotund helm
#

Not totally convinced DS counts as moving (though will play it that way)

coarse hill
#

nah you won't get it on your turn but will on theirs

#

breachers won't be charging anyway off DS

#

oh wait yeah the timing is wrong

#

it doesn't work from DS at all

#

they have to move

pastel crest
#

Actually I am thinking... do our sarge need powerfist at all? If we can safely sniped out artificial character before engage, maybe achea maul is enough?

#

That’s I4 S8 ap3, enough to smash most meqs.

rotund helm
#

risky but probably yeah

coarse hill
#

so @magic dagger was asking me what the best way to make use of the new box set is for someone starting 1k sons - thoughts?

#

given you have the spartan putting the termies in there is probably the way to go I assume, but no real clue what the best loadout for them is (hear a lot of chat about power fists?)

nocturne cove
#

If its standard terminators... power fists or lightning claws.

#

Maybe 1 or 2 chain fists

magic dagger
#

What’s the plan for the marines that come in the box? 🙂

rigid narwhal
#

Whatever, probably.

#

You could build Tac squads, or vets, or supports. Lots of options. Tacs and vets let you actually build lists, though

#

Also, by building them now you're running them without all the cool thousand sons armor bits.

rotund helm
#

I mean I have long list. More tacticals, more support.. certain heavy weapons squads.
I have been hording parts to make seekers, not such how they will play yet though.

#

It will be jarring to have whole squads of one armour type as my current army is all mixed.. so will probably spread them out

magic dagger
ivory walrus
#

Yeah they will be forge world. IF and SoH heads and shoulders went on pre-order with the core box. They're looking decent and for some reason the heads are a £1 cheaper than the existing heads

rotund helm
#

FW conversion bits can be ordered now

#

Missing Achean pads and mk4 bodies... sigh

ivory walrus
#

They've committed to doing MkVI upgrades for every legion (time will tell if that's the same as every legion getting a praetor) I think that's what Otter was referring to

rigid narwhal
ivory walrus
#

I'm wanting to run a praetor with the angry because he can't cast warlord trait but not sure what squad to pair him with. Can't do khenetai because he'll disable their mindsong, thinking command squad but not sure what melee weapons to go with (sad they don't get achean force)

keen jackal
#

Command squads can't buy power weapons?

rigid narwhal
#

They can't buy Achean Force weapons, because no Character tag

keen jackal
#

Ohhhh damn I though any model with a power weapon could swap for one that stinks

rigid narwhal
#

No, that would be cool. We don't get fun things that make sense.

coarse hill
ivory walrus
#

I was think landraider but jump pack is a good option actually

#

Power mauls and a couple of dudes with paired claws, power fist on the banner

#

Is it worth taking the unit up to the 10 chosen?

ivory walrus
rigid narwhal
#

we'd also have Sekhmet bodyguards, but....that's that

ivory walrus
#

I think most (all?) terminators that previously could be taken as command squads lost that option

#

Did suzerain also lose it?

rigid narwhal
#

no idea. Probably not, because Ultrasmurfs

ivory walrus
#

I know Sehkmet have never been able to but at least no one can now 🤣

ivory walrus
rigid narwhal
#

Figures. Same with Justarians.

nocturne cove
#

Tbh I don't understand why we can't take skehmet as command squad's

#

But at the same time remember command squad's are fearless...

#

However, units containing one or more models with the
Fearless special rule cannot use any Reactions that grant
a Cover Save, Armour Save, Invulnerable Save or Damage
Mitigation roll of any kind, and cannot choose to fail a
Morale check due to the Our Weapons Are Useless special
rule (see page 188). If a unit has become Pinned and then
gains the Fearless special rule, all the effects of being
Pinned are immediately cancelled.

keen jackal
#

Ouch so if you're fearless you can't use the 3++ reaction? That kind of blows

coarse hill
#

if you're thinking of breachers they are your line instead

#

so knowing what other units you'd like to run might help direct how they get built

keen jackal
#

I've already got 1 set of 20 mk.iii tacticals. I'm getting 2 boxes of mk.iii for breachers, 2 boxes of mk.iv for my support squads, and the 40 mk.vi from the new big box will be my seekers, khenatai, destroyers, and apothecaries. I think I'll have one Mk.vi body left over if my plan goes correctly

coarse hill
keen jackal
#

Yeah seems like the best way to get my money's worth. Get some printed narcethiums, maybe a different head and a tabard or something

#

That way I don't have 10 of the same looking resin model, I can have a little variance

coarse hill
#

yeah I was thinking about that myself tbh

#

I also have little interest in the Mk2 apoths, doesn't fit us really

magic dagger
#

I'd been looking for designs for bits to 3D print to customise the MkVI to give them a bit of extra flavour too, but not having much luck. Think helmets, shoulderpads and tabards would be ideal.

rigid narwhal
coarse hill
#

I have 4 already (2 of each Mk) and interchanged the arms for a bit of variety, was thinking I might flog the Mk2s

keen jackal
#

1ksons look like they care about aesthetics almost as much as emperor's children do

rigid narwhal
#

Fashion is always the true endgame

coarse hill
#

going to build myself some cents/praetors out of an exalted sorc box and some bits soon as well

#

though an FaQ saying ICs can upgrade power to force would be great before that point

#

also is it just me that hates that the achean maul is probably the best option thanks to S8 with force activated, since when did 1k sons use mauls

rotund helm
#

well Achean Staff is missing so all staffs are mauls now.

rigid narwhal
#

Achean Stick of Bonking

coarse hill
rotund helm
#

irritating though. The force staff is sweet, Reach so punch first

coarse hill
#

Yeah that would be sick if it was a force option

subtle fog
#

I apologize if this was obvious but is there a limit to how many psychic abilities I can per model/unit? Or is it just based on how many they know? For example if I have a unit of sekhment that I paid to have biomancy, can I activate force, use my prosperine arcana, use biomantic augmentation, all in the same turn?

rotund helm
#

Not seen any limit (heck, not seen nay limit on how many times you can be augmented with biomancy either)

subtle fog
#

neat

#

so for magnus you essentially have all the arcana going all the time assuming conditions are met because he auto passes all of them?

coarse hill
rotund helm
#

Magnus is like a whole thing though

coarse hill
#

Magnus only gets to use one minor though

#

It's specified

subtle fog
#

ah fair enough

rotund helm
#

Magnus can only use one minor arcana a turn

subtle fog
#

reasonable

rotund helm
#

but i don't see why he couldn't use telepathy with another power in the same phase

subtle fog
#

when using psychic weapons in the core discipline on squads I am assuming the weapon only goes to 1 model, not the whole squad?

#

otherwise seeing a 20 man tac squad with biomancer's rage would be hilariously broken

#

I guess a better example would have been sekhment again

#

as I dont think tacs have a way to gain that power

coarse hill
#

Yeah it just gives the caster access to the weapon, the embedded guy is the one casting

#

Not sure but think it'd be the sekhmet sarge if they cast it

subtle fog
#

would make sense

rotund helm
#

Yeah. Castellax Achea being a possible unintended exception but i'm not going there lol

subtle fog
#

did the psychic powers change from phase 3 playtest?

#

thats still what im looking at

#

dont have book in hand as im sure most dont yet

subtle fog
rotund helm
#

I havn't spotted any changes at all

#

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYFT9jiVstM&t=3381s 1:03:40 here

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subtle fog
#

thaumaturgic succour is useless right?

#

seeing as now you have to assign wounds to a model that already has taken wounds and you cant spread out wounds on multiple sekhment

#

unless it allows you to bring back the dead which it doesnt appear to do

rotund helm
#

it maybe has an application if you have lots of automata and dreadnoughts?

subtle fog
#

it states not vehicle

#

not sure if those count as vehicles though

rotund helm
#

they do not

subtle fog
#

MCs?

#

kk

rotund helm
#

they are thier own unique classes now

subtle fog
#

pyromancy seems like a lot of fun

rotund helm
#

and whilst i'd never take it, Magnus and Ahriman come with it, so worth remembering

subtle fog
#

just launching a bunch of pie plates lol

#

telepathy seems like where ill be most of the time

#

and biomancy

rotund helm
#

yeah to pyromancy. the weapon is weird tho. So much worse than a force weapon. Unless you just happen to be surrounded by mooks

rigid narwhal
#

AP doesn't matter vs tanks

#

S10 does

rotund helm
#

yeah sorry biomancy tearing tanks apart is brilliant

subtle fog
#

theres gonna be some really cool builds I feel that revolve around pinning and Ld shenanigans with recon squads and athanaen

rigid narwhal
#

I can't wait for people to spam Intercept only for people to debuff their interceptors with Telepathy

subtle fog
#

mfw ppl try to react

coarse hill
#

Even just the telepathy power you're averaging needing to roll 2-3 on your pinning check to avoid pinning

#

Athanaen and shell shock aren't even that necessary

#

That's at ld8

rigid narwhal
#

Telepathy also lets you turn off reactions the start of any phase

#

not just the pinning

rotund helm
#

Yeah but only that phase

rigid narwhal
#

Well, most of them you're spamming in the Move Phase or Charge Phase

#

then you pin stuff that wants to react in Shooting

coarse hill
#

Hmm, 2 castellax achea is basically the same points as an osiron

coarse hill
#

Osiron has +1 move, +2WS, +1BS, +1Str, +1T, -2 wounds vs 2 achea, +1 initiative, effectively -3 attacks vs 2 achea (not as good as it sounds given WS3, both equal 2 hits vs WS4) +1LD, +1 save.

Melee weapon wise Osiron gets +3 str, +1AP, and brutal 2 rather than Rending 5+. It doesn't get hammer of wrath though.

Shooting wise it gets 1 bigger plasma blast (large vs small) and +12" on it vs 2 smaller blasts, but only 1 bolter with twinlinked vs 4 with shred. However it also gets hallucination which is basically a guaranteed pin on whatever it's shooting.

Am I missing something or does an Osiron look more attractive?

rotund helm
#

The only thing achea have going for them is they can get Line

#

i really think they are hugely overcosted tbh

#

the psychic relay gimmick is cool but I can't think how often it will be useful

coarse hill
#

line spam or biomancy buffed deathstar I think makes sense

#

but just general usage I am feeling osirons all the way tbh

rotund helm
#

you can't even buff thier attacks with biomancy because their claws are fixed strength

pastel crest
#

Poor Achea only have ws3 is really a pain in the ass.

keen jackal
#

Woah, I just reread the rules for achean force weapons, and not only are we not allowed to swap any power weapon for one, even independent characters arent allowed to take one. Why the hell not? Are tactical sergeants really the only ones worthy enough for an achean force sword?

rigid narwhal
keen jackal
#

Well that's just stupid. My vigilator is getting an achean sword. Kopesh blades are cool.

rotund helm
#

Agreed. All i can say is bombard their faq email with protest.

rotund helm
#

So the numbers have been run, and Magnus is second worst at Primarch duels, only above Alpharius. lol well. He's definitely not a primarch dueler this edition.

rigid narwhal
#

I'm not even taking him in my list

pastel crest
#

We really need a psychic expansion. Also Magnus’ weapon being fixed strength is also dumb

#

His pistol being s3 is nearly a insult.

ivory walrus
#

But it can be the same strength as other primarch pistols by taking a psychic test, so it's balanced or something

rotund helm
#

Sorry I'm having a salty morning.

coarse hill
#

yeah I am fully expecting an FAQ letting ICs take regular force

pastel crest
#

Tbf if so chaplains will be far better psykers than librarians.

#

Ld 10, force weapon, zeolot. Bye bye vanilla librarian

rotund helm
#

Yeah not having librarians with any bonus is a bit of an issue. Though they do get the psychic hood. I'd be happy enough with achean force weapons on ICs.

pastel crest
#

But on the other hand our psyker praetors can’t take force weapon is also silly.🤔

#

Whoever wrote the new ruleset definitely hasn’t found a good way to resolve around theme of psyker legion.

coarse hill
#

yeah praetors at least need force I'd say

pastel crest
#

No special psyker consul and special psychic discipline is also... lackluster...Consider SW and WS get them.

coarse hill
#

I think if Praetors could buy a second discipline and force weapons and cents could get achea force I'd be fine with it

nocturne cove
#

I'm not sure there's any actual lore to support a super specific consul for us. I can't think of one that isn't already technically represented by our ics... apart from like maybe a hidden one but even then that was more about random people being tied together as sleeper agents and stuff like that than an actual rank within the tsons

#

They'd have to make new lore to give us a special consul

#

Maybe like a Cult Teacher maybe...

#

Reading through the lore again the consul could be some sort of special cult member that could have an advanced version of one of the cult arcana abilities

rotund helm
#

Order upgrades would be cool, like the hexagrammaton upgrades DA get

nocturne cove
#

Teutalaries, orders and cults are the main defining features of tsons and their command and culture

#

If the Three red orders could be their own thing that would be cool but tbh the way to represent the orders would be through rites of war

rotund helm
#

Order of Ruin seige list would be fun

nocturne cove
#

Order of Ruin would be about artillery, tech marines and logistical units.

Order of Blindness would be about moritats, recon units, scouts etc.

Order of the Jackal would be about dreadnoughts, apothecaries and khenetai

rotund helm
#

Give me a Champion with achean force swords and mindsong blades plz

pastel crest
nocturne cove
#

There's also the Rehati which is the tsons equivalent of the sons of horus Mournival. Made up of legion advisors and key members of the Legion as direct Council to magnus

#

A Magister could maybe work but essentially they'd just be a librarian + unless they didn't something special and different

#

The differences between a librarian and a magister would be the same as the differences between a sorcerer and an exalted sorcerer.

Like magisters literally were the heads of the temples. Amon is a magister for example

rotund helm
#

I mean, it's what Praetors should be

nocturne cove
#

Ahriman is a magister of the corvidae cult etc

#

Yeah praetors should have gotten a special wargear selection to essentially be a "build your own magister" kit

nocturne cove
#

Wow they really fucked magnus this edition it looks like

#

For a guy that can punch leman russ so hard he takes one of his hearts out and can fist fight a ork gargant he doesn't seem very good

pastel crest
#

There is no psychic power that can actually help him in a combat, which is a pain.

rotund helm
#

Yeah

#

If he has some nearby friends casting in, there's a few that can help a bit.

#

But nothing that will overcome his innate deficiencies in primarch duels

rotund helm
#

Magnus Power rundown.

#

Magnus knows all the Core rulebook disciplines.
He also knows all the cult Arcana but can only use One per turn

Telepathic fugue can (and should) always be cast in any phase, but only once per Turn.

Movement phase
Start of phase
Telepathic fugue

When moving (so not locked in combat)
Raptora cult arcana within 12" of enemy
(Doesn't help magnus but might help his unit )
Pavoni +3 move
Instead of moving: Telekine Dome

Shooting phase
Start of phase Telepathic Fugue
One of:
Shooting own pistol
Aetheric Lightning
Diviniatory Aegis
Diviners Dart
Biomantic Augmentation
Telekines focus
Pyromantic combustion
Telepathic hallucinations
Thaumaturgic succour
Thaumaturges cleansing

None of these can be used if locked in combat.
Which is worth doing depends on a lot of factors. Note Magnus doesn't need line of sight.
Also can activate athanean cult arcana if you're target is vulnerable to leadership effects. (In which case Telepathic hallucinations is a good call )
You could also activate Corvidae on your unit.
Magnus automatically allocates so divination and corvidae are of limited benefit.

Assault Phase
Start of phase Telepathic Fugue

Prior to declaring a charge
Pyrae
If you haven't used your cult arcana by this point now is the time.

Locked in combat:
You have access to psychic weapons, but they will be worse than your weapon.

Pyromantic Desolation
Biomancers Rage
However you can trigger Pyromanic Desolation without using it (I think) for an extra blast template hitting friends and foes alike.

When Reacting.

Movement phase
Advance/ Withdraw
Activate Raptora Cult Arcana
Activate Telekine dome?

Shooting Phase
Return fire
Activate any of the When Shooting powers .
An opportunity for biomantic augmentation?

Assault phase
Overwatch: activate any of the Shooting phase powers.

rigid narwhal
#

Pyromantic Desolation on Magnus...or anything really is pretty bad. It's a small blast centered on the model. That means you're only hitting a couple things you're in base2base with, maybe.

#

Raptora is pretty much useless across the board. Everything you'd want it for already has a 4++

#

and at range, just use Telekine Dome instead

#

It might've had use if it wasn't 'within 12"'

rotund helm
#

I mean tartaros exists but yeah

rigid narwhal
#

Sure, but you're just burning your cult power to make them Cataphractii

rotund helm
#

They get to sweep, potentially a big bonus.

rigid narwhal
#

Not really. You're on 50/50 odds with most things

#

Trying to set up the chain of situations to make sweeping with terminators okay is usually a bad plan.

#

If there were a way to reliably make them higher Initiative, I might be on board for that

coarse hill
#

Raptora breachers is the main use of it I see, but needing to move within 12" to activate it is not ideal, they kinda need to start in a transport to plausibly get there without getting shot at 5++ from far away

rotund helm
#

It Might be possible to use reactively ? Not 100% sure. But would make it a bit more useful.

coarse hill
#

yeah once you get breachers in there absolutely

#

so like ZM breachers as raptora will be great

#

but on a relatively open board with them footslogging? plentiful opportunity for them to be shot to death before you ever get a chance to turn the 4++ on

#

as Otter said I'd rather trail a guy back to a Telekine Dome on tacs with an apoth for not dissimilar points

#

the problem is you have to activate it in your move when they move within 12"

#

if you could do it reactively it'd be a lot better

rigid narwhal
#

Yeah, Dome on Tacs + Apoth on an objective seems really sturdy

#

only taking 1/4 of the AP3+ damage that makes it to your save seems decent

nocturne cove
#

Like biomancy +1 strength and toughness

pastel crest
#

But doesn’t dome cancel moving? How should the caster catch up with those moving forward.

nocturne cove
#

But that sounds incredibly gamey

nocturne cove
#

Magnus starts at strength 6 and can go up to 12 with force. One biomancy would be 13, two would be 14, 3 would be 15... and he could potentially end up at toughness 9 with three casts

#

Wait could you potentially stack Pavoni cult buffs with different ics and characters?

#

One pavoni is 3 inch movement. Two would be 6 etc

#

That could snowball pretty quickly if it's possible

pastel crest
#

Can you still do that by jet boost? I remember the advance is moved to movement phase.

nocturne cove
coarse hill
#

You just gotta daisy chain a guy back to the aura

#

Only one needs to be in it

nocturne cove
#

But yeah I know stacking toughness and strength for magnus won't help him much in a primarch fight but being able to get so strong he can literally snap a leviathan in half would be pretty good

#

At strength 14 he will be instant deathing leviathans

pastel crest
#

Oh yes, I nearly forgot it’s now different with wound allocation and it’s not wholly within.

rotund helm
#

Magnus has a fixed strength weapon so that can't be buffed by biomancy

nocturne cove
rotund helm
#

Same with castellax achea

nocturne cove
#

Does it not react the same way how a power fist makes someone ×2 strength... and then you can biomancy them for strength 9?

rotund helm
#

I'm not sure about stacking cult arcana with different characters. There is a line about a model may not know or use two different Cult Arcana. Like lol OK same one twice.. I don't think it works lol

#

But I don't see why multiple biomancy can't be stacked

nocturne cove
# rotund helm I'm not sure about stacking cult arcana with different characters. There is a li...

My hypothetical is a scenario where let's say, you sargent knows pavoni. But so does your librarian or praetor.

Strictly speaking they're two different models casting the same spell. And we know casting two different cults from two different sources applies both cults to the same unit if they're together. But what about If they both knew pavoni.

Could they potentially gain 6 inches to their range of movement?

#

Because if that was the case then suddenly the tsons could become INCREDIBLY mobile

#

Like a jump pack unit or jetbike unit in that scenario could end up going 22 inches in a single normal move

#

Sorry just looked it up, warhawk units move Seven inches.

So 7+6 would be 13 inches movement base

#

Seven inches seems pretty slow for a jetpack...

rotund helm
#

I think the "or use" caveat probably rules this out. But. Technically lol.

#

I mean Obviously IC+ IC + sergeant + apothecary + techmarine for a +12 moment is a Bit silly

#

Hahahhrhahayhrhayhrhr

nocturne cove
nocturne cove
#

Should an apothecary take an achean maul?

#

Or an axe?

ivory walrus
#

depends what the unit he is joining has. I'm leaning more towards mauls myself, they just seem so good now

#

In my khenetai the apothecary is getting a maul

rotund helm
#

My only problem is finding mauls to give to apothecaries

pastel crest
#

Reason for not bringing axe? It’s ap2 after all.

rotund helm
#

Maul is S8 at initiative, so can cause instant death

#

And ignore Fnp

pastel crest
#

But it can be tanked by artificial armour... guess I would give maul to apoth attached to vets, but not tacticals.

nocturne cove
rigid narwhal
#

you can soak Perils with your other models, but tanking with your characters is volunteering your powers to get sniped.

nocturne cove
#

Also you take AA on an apothecary to protect them not to throw them away

#

If you lose the apothecary you lose your FNP and thus the whole point of him being there

pastel crest
#

No I meant opponent can tank your maul attacks by AA. I still think it’s best to have at least one ap2 weapon in one squad.

#

Or should it be fist sarge and maul apoth?

nocturne cove
#

Probably an axe then

#

Fist sargent is probably the best all round option

pastel crest
#

Yeah ID ap2 feels extremely important this edition.

rigid narwhal
#

Might just end up with Pyrae - Biomancy Sekhmet just to fistfight other terminators

pastel crest
#

I would say hammer. It’s just 5 more points, but each wound will be twice likely to kill.

rigid narwhal
#

Naw, +15 points

#

Sekhmet with axes get to S8/2 included

pastel crest
#

Oh achean axe, yeah that’s way cheaper

ivory walrus
#

Activating the axe also counts as a psychic test if you're using angry praetor

nocturne cove
#

Thunder hammer is only useful if you're hunting vehicles

#

Sunder reroll armour pen

pastel crest
#

In final version it doesn’t have sunder, but with brutal (2)

#

And it’s only 5 more points compared to fist.

frosty plaza
#

Just to clarify

#

Can someone explain the Castellax Achea loophole to me

#

Is it just that they get the force lightning ability because they're psykers with no discipline?

nocturne cove
frosty plaza
#

I must’ve completely missed that before

#

Realising now it was me that asked the first time

#

My brain is fried with BizTalk for work and trying to buy a house rn 😅

#

So I assume that for the purposes of that rule, prosperine arcana counts as a discipline then?

pastel crest
#

There is no clear wording says It actually does.

nocturne cove
#

I.e. divination. Telepathy. Biomancy. Pyromancy.

frosty plaza
#

Right ok

#

I assume the reason this doesn't apply to just every unit in the army is because the LA(1kSons) says it doesn't grant disciplines?

nocturne cove
#

Tbh between prosperine arcana and core disciplines you want the core disciplines really because prosperine arcana effects are mostly beans in comparison to the core spells

pastel crest
#

Do we know who can have a aetherfire magna Cannon?

nocturne cove
#

Anything that can take a plasma cannon I suspect

#

Oh wait that's the huge one

pastel crest
#

Isn’t that aetherfire Cannon?

nocturne cove
#

Uh... maybe a bane blade variant or something. Or the sicaran with the daul super plasma cannons.

#

Or a predator with the larger plasma cannon

pastel crest
#

....

#

Then how do they activate achean force.

#

They are not psyker?

nocturne cove
#

I'm not sure

pastel crest
#

😅I hate this ill-thought rule.

nocturne cove
#

I can't think of any infantry that could carry something larger than a plasma cannon

ivory walrus
#

Aether magna plas replaces gravis plas cannons

#

So contemptors

nocturne cove
#

Ah so it's for dreadnoughts

pastel crest
#

But normal contemptor aren’t psyker either?

#

Just osiron then?

nocturne cove
#

Pretty much...

#

And I guess the achea as well don't they have an aether cannon

pastel crest
#

That’s silly...

ivory walrus
#

Achea are psykers so they can activate achean force

pastel crest
#

Yeah

ivory walrus
#

So about that aether plas moritat, think that'll get FAQ'ed?

pastel crest
#

I think it’s a fine combo, don’t see the point to faq it.

nocturne cove
ivory walrus
#

He can't activate achean force because he's an IC

#

unless he joins a unit and they have a character

#

So he would need to join a unit of destroyers and have their sergeant turn his force on

pastel crest
#

Yeah he must join destroyer to activate it. But I guess if you bring a moritat you are gonna bring destroyer, so that’s fine?

rotund helm
#

I really hope they can be persuaded to backtrack on the whole ICs can't use achean force thing. It makes no sense at all

ivory walrus
#

It's there to stop you throwing a chaplain into a unit of Sehkmet to get LD 10 for turning their axes on

rotund helm
#

I get it, but that could be written out without banning it from characters

nocturne cove
#

Literally sacrificing ease of understanding the rules and your models working together and making sense together to make an unwieldy and complex rule that does more to punish players than it prevents "abuse"

pastel crest
#

😅yeah

ivory walrus
#

It's also probably the reason that ICs can't take achean force weapons. It's an oversight that ICs can take aether plas

rigid narwhal
#

They could just give all ICs the ability to upgrade weapons to true Force

#

and then take away the little snippet about activating Achean as an IC.

#

also I need to sort out how I'm modeling a chaplain...

coarse hill
#

Plenty of bonky staff bits in the exalted box

coarse hill
#

Discussion in leaks thread: take 10 biomancy achean axe sekhmet with a biomancy chappy and primus medicae, making them the scariest deathstar in the game with +5str and +3T. Possibly add in your praetor/ahriman/Magnus just because

rotund helm
#

Its a lot of points. But yeah could do some work.

pastel crest
#

Almost 900 points I think.

rotund helm
#

Load em in a spartan ?

coarse hill
#

Does biomancy increase the strength of hammer of wrath?

coarse hill
pastel crest
#

Can minor arcana stack again?

coarse hill
#

Same debate as regular powers I think

#

So presumably yes??

pastel crest
#

Then you can put +3 move, how2 and maybe sniping on them..

#

Not bad?

#

+3 move definitely help its flexibility.

narrow bramble
#

Just spam the +3 M

#

Cross the table in one turn

pastel crest
#

.

#

Oh yes. Damn...

narrow bramble
#

And get +2 for your charge

#

😆

pastel crest
#

Sekh+3, chappy+3, medicae+3

coarse hill
#

Does it affect move characteristic or just distance?

pastel crest
#

Movement 15

narrow bramble
#

So 15'' movement

pastel crest
#

Just distance though.

narrow bramble
#

Not bad on cataphracti

#

Speeeeeeeeeed

#

Who need a spartan anyway

rigid narwhal
coarse hill
#

Somehow stacking pavoni feels like more of an abuse than biomancy lol

narrow bramble
#

But tbh it's moving close to waac territory

pastel crest
#

Lmao, this is maybe the best deathstar in the game, though lack fightiness of primarch.

#

Yeah, it’s already into the area of spamming.

narrow bramble
#

With 15'' move you don't have to fight a primarch tbh

#

You can just kite him

coarse hill
pastel crest
#

I am fine if it’s allowed to put different minor arcana into one unit, just not spamming one kind.

narrow bramble
#

Yeah spamming the same is scummy

pastel crest
#

Otherwise it would be silly with characters with different arcana.

coarse hill
#

And was previously too,, splash in ICs with different ones for other benefits

narrow bramble
#

If it's not allowed

coarse hill
#

Yeah it ceases to have a use at all for chars

narrow bramble
#

Damn I may after some month organize a waac tournament to see what crazy shit people will discover

rotund helm
#

Arcana rules does say you can't use from different arcana on the same model..

#

But misses uses the same one multiple times haha

narrow bramble
#

Hmmm might have to check after faq

#

But not allowing us to have multiple just force us to stack

#

So it's totally dumb

subtle fog
pastel crest
#

The rule is ill thought for sure.

coarse hill
#

Anything without minor arcana

narrow bramble
#

You can see how much our rule was hard to ballance

subtle fog
#

lmao

narrow bramble
#

It's either: terrible, broken or just exploitable

#

No middle ground

coarse hill
#

It's not that hard to patch the exploits

subtle fog
#

knowing GW its all 3

coarse hill
#

Gw just incompetent writing as ever

narrow bramble
pastel crest
#

It just seems to me they don’t really understand how psychic power should work...

narrow bramble
pastel crest
#

Adopting the psychic mechanic of 8th & 9th maybe tidier...

coarse hill
subtle fog
#

I like the direction they tried to go with it, just left some words out and didn't include some important ones

pastel crest
#

They can just design a list of core powers, and one list for each special psychic factions, clearly state each power can only be used once, then give Tson some bonus casting psychic powers. Done, clean and tidy.

#

But, alas.

pastel crest
coarse hill
#

Everyone can get 2 Libby's tho

pastel crest
#

Well yeah, but they have to give up other useful options, but we can easily have both.

nocturne cove
#

How does this red look for tsons

20220608_200000.jpg 20220608_200006.jpg
rotund helm
#

Whats the recipe? Hard to tell from the photo

nocturne cove
#

Contrast blood angels and scale 72 inktensity crimson

rotund helm
#

Over the gold? So a bit shiny ?

nocturne cove
#

Yea

rotund helm
#

Is that gw retributor spray?

nocturne cove
#

Retributor spray then a coat of Retributor paint and then a dry brush of silver then the red

rotund helm
#

Ah cool was gonna say the spray on its own can be a bit weak

#

Looks solid anyway. Can't really tell what the inktensity is adding

nocturne cove
#

Crimson wine look and glossyness

rotund helm
#

cool

rigid narwhal
#

FTR is a little darker and tilts towards that 'wine' color a bit more

#

but it all depends on the mood you're going for.

narrow bramble
pastel crest
#

Can vets take rotor cannon or anything that can cause pinning?

rotund helm
#

Combi grenade Launchers with Frag are pinning

#

Or Frag missiles.

#

No rotor cannons

#

Huh. They are relentless and can take nemesis bolters.. does that still mean what I think it means

#

That's bananas good. OK 10ppm but still.

pastel crest
#

Huh, maybe athanaean vets can work..

rotund helm
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Yeah.. definitely have play. Pricy I guess but that's a good combo.

coarse hill
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Nem bolters are pinning right

rotund helm
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Yeah. Heavy 1 range 72", Rending 5+ sniper, pinning.

coarse hill
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So my vet plan was a missile on corvidae vets for the ability tosnipe out and ID specific targets

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And the option to pin in a pinch with frag

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Given how insane hallucinations is for pinning purposes I just don't know if I'd invest in regular pinning tbh

rotund helm
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I wonder how many nemesis bolters you need to cause a wound with high reliability..

coarse hill
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And corvidae missile vets cover both sniping and pinning so didn't end up with nem bolters

rotund helm
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I don't rate Missile for sniping tbh everything worth killing is 2+ save

coarse hill
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That is true, but no instant death

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Are there other ap2 heavy weapons? Melta but short range only..

rotund helm
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Yeah. A few things meet the criteria.
Aether plasma (massed) melta/combi melta. Lascannon (but not on vets)

coarse hill
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So I'm taking a few big TSS of aether plasma

rotund helm
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I think that's a good choice for corvidae. You won't get many rends but you can put one where you want it.

coarse hill
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So need to slow roll

rotund helm
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First save..

coarse hill
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Yeah but same logic

rotund helm
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I mean it's not totally clear who picks the first wound pool

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I think it should be the Corvidae, but yeah it's on my faq list

coarse hill
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I don't see how it can be anything but needing to slow roll

rotund helm
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You would roll to wound all together, then any 6s would form a separate wound pool

coarse hill
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I guess I've not read the full wound allocation bit yet actually

pastel crest
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I will leave sniping to Corvidae Osiron tbh.

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Stable and range long enough.

coarse hill
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Athanaen for better hallucinations pinning tests though

rotund helm
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Also good

pastel crest
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Pinning doesn’t need kill, right?

rotund helm
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For the USR it needs an unsaved Wound

coarse hill
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I guess with vets you could take nem bolters on a few over a missile and athanaen over corvidae, then you're always proccing pinning, getting precision shots and at higher ap, but you lose some anti tank capacity and it's more expensive

pastel crest
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Hmmm...I misremembered then.

coarse hill
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Another reason halluc is so insanely good

rotund helm
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Yeah.. and orison can fire multiple weapons. Could be solid

pastel crest
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Though my list include a whole squad of las hss and rapier, so I am not really worry about anti tank.

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I mean with las osiron you can always target tank after sniping out 2+characters, it’s very flexible.

narrow bramble
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Btw can't remember if there is a point in the cult rule that specify WHEN we should make the roll