not sure at all what the Zm meta looks like, Can you reasonably run pride of the legion at 1k for vet troops? (I found some fancy emp children vet models which I love, and want to paint, and this force is an excuse) What do I need to have covered at this size?
#1K Emps children for zm?
worthy cargo
clear crown
For ZM, Termies are generally better than vets simply because they come w/ a 2+ armor save and an invuln, which is priceless against dreads that can and will charge you on their terms.
However, Vets are certainly useful as well. They can mass-buy meltabombs to handle walkers (assuming any survive the dread swinging first), have a veritable swiss army knife of options, and are decently cheap.
Personally I'd run your MotL HQ of choice (Praetor or Delegatus, Herald if you want to slot in a second HQ but not really feasible at 1k), a contemptor, a terminator squad, and a vet squad
Double CCW contemptors do work in ZM, regardless of their inbuilt gun option.
HQ goes with the termies to keep him alive longer, and that squad should have a mix of power weapons and a fist or two to handle walkers.
Vet squad is basically a wildcard, though I'd ensure that there's at least one power weapon in there, possibly meltabombs as well, then your choice of dedicated melee by giving them all power weapons or decent shooting by giving them good guns.
worthy cargo
How possible is termyless? for aesthetic reasons i would like to not use them.
clear crown
It can work, but in ZM you'll generally have very tight corridors and a lack of long firing lanes. Thus, the ever-present Dreadnought (you WILL find one in every Legion ZM list, often a contemptor) will get a charge off on somebody at some point in every game. They swing at initiative w/ AP2 and ID Marines and Custodes, so invulns are of great value.
If you are 100% dead set against terminators, then you will need to take 10man vet squads, protected by apothecaries if you can. The FnP won't help in melee against dreads, but it will keep their numbers up so they don't get bonked out of existence before the survivors can drop meltabombs on the walker
You'll also want to hide at least one meltagun in each squad, preferably two. A proper meltagun, not a combi, so that you can provide AT all game.
worthy cargo
I wonder if just, escalating to two dreads might be an answer? maybe that can't fit in 1k, let me try it
clear crown
Contemptors are 180pts each, accounting for Extra Armor
Generally it's considered good manners to take a single dread, but that's also usually customary b/c elites score in ZM (thus, your dread scores) and you generally also see plenty of units w/ invulns. Termies, Breachers, and the like
If you're running only vets as your infantry, you could probably get away with 2x Dreads to try and corner the enemy's
worthy cargo
as in bad manners to take 2 dreads?
clear crown
Usually bad manners, yeah. However, that mindset assumes that you're also taking terminators and other invuln units that can survive the enemy's dread long enough to swing back
Breachers, Terminators, etc
If you're running only vets, every successful wound in melee by a dread is just a dead dude. No saves allowed when it's AP2, you have no invuln, and it's S10 against your T4
Thus, if you're running only vets, it might be more acceptable to run 2x Dreads. Especially since you're EC and need all the help you can get 😅
Sorry if it seems like I'm trying to discourage your idea, I'm just sharing what experience I have
worthy cargo
naw this is what i am asking
clear crown
As EC, you're highly dependent on the charge and winning in melee to use your legion rules. I admit that melee vets in EC are strong, and a mix of axes and swords will shred most units outright. But you will suffer at the hands of units that have invulns if you can't kill them faster than they kill you, and in ZM it always comes down to melee unless you've got some crazy shooty unit that can keep everything away
worthy cargo
Maybe it would make sense to do ZM force instead, and do double breachers dread vets? .... and thats probably about all that fits
maybe you can squeeze som kakaphoni in there.
clear crown
Factor in that only 1/3 of ZM missions revolve around actual objectives and the rest are just various forms of killpts and/or linebreaker, and you can see the problem of lacking invulns
worthy cargo
Factor in that only 1/3 of ZM missions revolve around actual objectives and the ...
oh thats akward
clear crown
Breachers shine in ZM, especially in their specific RoW that boosts their invulns. A 4++ in melee is just as good as cataphractii for cheaper
Using 3rd Company Elite for Relentless Kakophani troops also seems like a decent idea if you want to play keep away instead of charging in
Because in ZM, you can overwatch at full BS if you pass an Initiative test
So you can walk around without having to snapfire, blast models off the board and glance the rear of dreads, and basically get a second shot at crippling incoming melee units before they hit.
worthy cargo
oof, bet that makes robot speck admech castelax miserable what with their bosted inits
clear crown
Cybernetica is pain in ZM
Almost no scoring, to be fair, but their comp troop is a 2bot castellax squad, which is hell to get rid of before they earn their pts back by just NEVER DYING
worthy cargo
you still need 2 troops right? or is the force org down to 1?
clear crown
At least they can't take anything too horrendous, since 60mm is the largest base size allowed and you're actively constrained by terrain. If the model doesn't fit, it can't move there at all
ZM has it's own FoCs, Attacker, Defender, and Combatant
Most people build for combatant, as it will ensure you have a rules-legal list for all three
So, 1HQ, 1Elite, 1Troop compulsory.
Optional:
0-1 HQ
0-1 Elite
0-2 Troops
0-1 FA
0-1 HS
^That's combatant
worthy cargo
1 elites compulsory huh
clear crown
Your dreadnought fills that
Every legion list takes a dread in ZM unless you're under 1k pts, no need to feel bad about it
worthy cargo
you like Melta bombs on your breachers?
clear crown
It's how you can reliably deal w/ Dreads. A 5++ or 4++ in melee, and MB on every model means that you're never without a means of dealing with a dread in CC
You can also hide meltaguns in your breacher squad if you need some ranged punch as well
worthy cargo
2x melta and bombs is a cool 1/3 of the list, jeez XD
clear crown
Ayup 😅
ZM do be like that
Closer to 1/2 if you factor in the cost of an apoth
Though the guns aren't the important part, the bombs are
worthy cargo
hmm looking at a 5? man melee squad to stick my delegatus in. palantine blades or sword vets, hmm
clear crown
Go 10man if you at all can. Otherwise be prepared to run from dreads with that squad
Either strat works, but some players are pretty damn good at forcing charges in ZM
worthy cargo
yeah, i was indeed expecting to run from dreads with that squad
clear crown
Then you should be fine. Also Palatines have WS5 base, can take shriekers, and can swap charnabal sabres for spears
So if you have the pts...Palatines are likely the better crunch for your schmancy sword/spear toting veteran models
They can also mass-buy artificer and MBs
The exception to this would be if you wanted a mix of swords and axes, then you could go Weaponmaster or Stalker vets. Weaponmaster gives WS5, obviously, but Scout (and thus outflank) is great in ZM due to how deployment usually works
worthy cargo
hmm, 755 points in, out of elites slots.
Pal with arti and 3 spear, doulbe claw dread, breachers with bomb, delagatus with spear.
clear crown
5man palatine, yeah?
clear crown
Could either stock up on more palatines, or invest in a Primus Medicae HQ to join your warlord.
Brings FnP, another invuln, and can take a thunder hammer
worthy cargo
hmm, tho notably a slightly upgraded termy squad does fit right in there, deep strike with the row, and is scoring...
hmmm
clear crown
If you DS, bring a vox for the breachers
Scatter in ZM is all but guaranteed to force a mishap
It's a real feelsbad moment when you lose your warlord to DS mishap 😅
clear crown
Obviously you won't lose yours, but I've lost mine before because I was insane 😅
Still hurts to lose ~200pts tho
worthy cargo
oh yeah, seems like it for sure would
clear crown
But yeah. Terminator squad + Vox on the breachers is 185pts before any other upgrades
and at 755 rn, you've got 245pts to play with. So...60pts for upgrades.
After the naked termies + vox
worthy cargo
hammer on the breacher sarge, chainfist on the termy sarge... graviton guns for the dread?
clear crown
Honestly the dread is meant to get into melee. If you have the pts for guns, by all means upgrade them, but those are an afterthought, not the main focus
Are gravitons 15pts each? That would fit in 60pts if I'm remembering costs right
worthy cargo
i had 30 points after
yeah 15 each
i have it in battle scribe at exactly 1000 right now
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worthy cargo
.... i thought i was in a thread?
clear crown
Gravitons are a decent upgrade. They'll chip vehicles and create difficult terrain
And your primary killing power vs infantry is in melee anyway
Don't mind the bot, it's very retentive and hasn't had all the bugs worked out yet
😅
worthy cargo
man, is iron hands stuff really good in Zm? unique breachers and termies, and you save on medic costs
clear crown
Immortals are pretty damn good
Still need to use their specific RoW to make them troops tho
Gorgons are also damn good
clear crown
They do indeed, since they are not "Legion Breacher Squads"
Just like how you can't DS legion specific terminators in that RoW because they are not "Legion Terminator Squads"
worthy cargo
so yeah, 3/4 squads which can fight a dread, 1/4 squads which can bully most anything else on the charge.
clear crown
A decent mix
Keep in mind that half will be in reserves at the start of every game tho
So you'll at least have the flexibility to decide what you want to go where
clear crown
Generally speaking, that's the range. I personally play at 1.5k unless I'm doing intro games for new/returning players
Happy medium of having a good amount of boys and toys, but not the insanity of full scale 3k+ games that I don't often have time for
worthy cargo
i wonder how viable just a .... 3 squad like 15 tacs with melta /fist sarges and apocs would be as a list core. would run you about... 500 points?
clear crown
175pts (boys) + 35pts (Sgt upgrades) + 45-55pts (Apoth) = 255-65pts for each squad
worthy cargo
mm, so dread and pared down leader is all that fits after that
clear crown
Would honestly be pretty funny. You'd at least have plenty of bodies
worthy cargo
maybe in like, night lords or SOH, to give them a bit of melee punch
clear crown
BA are also a good fit
worthy cargo
at 1.5 still 1 dread? or more wiggle room on that one
clear crown
Still 1 dread is usually the way. I've seen lists that bring a full talon of regular boxnaughts tho
Granted, I've mostly seen them from a fellow player whose dice luck is abysmal 😅
worthy cargo
Oh man, moriats might work in zm
clear crown
Only problem is that you've got to dedicate an elites slot to a destroyer squad, or run them solo
Granted, I have had fun with a DG Jump Moritat in zm games
worthy cargo
ok, if i wanted to put a potential 500 point bolt onto that 1k list
what would you say i should be looking at
clear crown
If you're still against termies, I'd advise investing in some Seekers and boosting the Palatine's numbers
Seekers have good guns that are scary on overwatch, can take cheap combis for utility, and have Implacable Advance so they score
Boosting your deathstar is also a fairly obvious choice, though you could also do it through the addition of another HQ instead of more bodies