Horus heresy 3.0 rule book leak

[green torrent]

unit types and subtypes

[daring yacht]

The rest of the rule book

[tribal jetty]

honestly there are quite a few things I would still like to know

[last bone]

The big thing I'd like to know is all in the libers tbh

[wraith pasture]

Arent most of those just gonna be keywords for other special rules

[wraith pasture]

like what

[tribal jetty]

LOS rules (probably unchanged), terrain rules (also probably not changed much but sort of goes in hand with LOS), vehicle rules beyond just the damage table

[green torrent]

No, why would they? Things like Cavalry and Infantry had a very distinct rules through the heresy editions, and stuff like Heavy really changes how the unit interacts with the game

[last bone]

I also wonder if the core book will have many of the weapon profiles in it or like a summary of some

[tribal jetty]

I don't think it will have any

[last bone]

Fair

[warped arrow]

I guess i just want confirmation of the WS chart. I know supposedly its the same, but seeing it would be nice.

[acoustic gale]

I assume the leaker bought the box to make 1:1 STLs and he's busy with that

[untold palm]

Seeing rumors of release for 3.0 being 7/26. Not sure of validity.

[zealous wharf]

Ugh that's so long, why can't we just have it nooooow

[untold palm]

Im happy if it takes that long personally. Allows me to bu8ld up a larger reserve to buy more stuff

[grave plume]

because you already have a backlog to work on

[dark lion]

There is a solution Kadeton. It's called crime

[zealous wharf]

You... are not wrong. But I'm currently painting a plasma support squad and wondering how they're going to work in the new edition.

[rigid canyon]

Aww man no more leaks yet? My rumour tummy is rumbling

[tribal jetty]

the only thing we got in the last week was the leaker posting a picture of the built turret

[rigid canyon]

I wanna see why Shooting has 11+ steps already 😅

[wraith pasture]

I kinda wish they would just launch the books now

Let people digest the rules and be ready for the full release

[hot tundra]

Releasing the books now is the same as releasing the edition now, so they won't do that

[dire gale]

Lol ya

Once the rules are out that's the launch

[fleet dew]

I agree that it feels like torture

[fierce sundial]

but spoilies

complete spoilers are unfun

and the day 1 experience will be worse if it is optimized pre release

[sick nimbus]

Real?

[nocturne oasis]

200 pounds oof

[kindred ledge]

Date seems likely, my lgs also said late july/early august due to the ordering and release schedule of other GW stuff

200 pounds is spendy. Likely around 230 Euro

[sick nimbus]

2300 sKR then, roughly. Not too bad, still not as good as AOD was though

[kindred ledge]

How many pounds was AoD again?

[median hawk]

£180 on launch, £195 for the last two years.

[sick nimbus]

I only remember the Swedish price which was iirc 2k skr

[kindred ledge]

Hmm, so a raise of 10%, roughly

So, at launch, the AoD was roughly 220 Euro. So this will likely be 240

Assuming this leak is correct of course

[acoustic gale]

RRP was 230€ at launch

but I honestly don't remember it going up

[kindred ledge]

Ah, so in that case, we can deduce that the Euro price for Saturnine will be 240/250ish

[acoustic gale]

ah yes i see it was 245€ in the end... so that's how much Saturnine is

[kindred ledge]

249,99 is one of those mental breakpoints for pricing

[acoustic gale]

it's mental that one box can cost more than a high end printer but ho hum

[kindred ledge]

Ehhh, you have to have the room for one and have to be willing to deal with resin

The pricing is a thing yes, but running a 3d printer is almost akin to a whole hobby in of itself

[inner dragon]

It absolutely is and is a massive pain in the arse

[kindred ledge]

No skin of my back tho as I don't want the box anyway

I want the rulebooks and plastic FA. Saturnine is not exactly ......ahem.....my speed

[acoustic gale]

it's a pain in the arse, but it's no more a separate hobby (if you don't make it one) than having to buy paint and clean your airbrush

I bought my first printer because I was offended by the cost of the Necromunda zone mortalis box XD

But I ended up getting the box anyway

fml

[kindred ledge]

Ehhh, could be nice to do but I don't really have much to get anymore anyway. Almost done with my Scars and AL.

Maybe I will make a small kill team for Night Lords (First Claw) and that's kinda all hobbying I have left.
Not just that, I won't be really paying the majority of my heresy to get myself anyway. My painting commission clients do😂

Necro prices do tend to be criminal, will fully agree there

Starting out tho....the printer might be a more interesting prospect

[dense chasm]

You will plod along and you will love it

[kindred ledge]

Stares in Mongolian dissaproval

[sweet geyser]

What is the estimated price in burger dollars?

[teal basalt]

same as whatever the AoD costed recently most likely

[fleet dew]

225€ was around the price I expected. With the usual % around 180-200€ is fine by me

[tribal jetty]

Probably $315ish

[untold palm]

If we go by current exchange rates, 195 comes out to 265

[bronze oxide]

195 isnt bad ill get a local store discount on my 4 boxes too

[tribal jetty]

GW never follows exchange rates, it's pretty much always more by a good amount

The only thing I found on the GW store that was 195 GBP was a LOTR terrain set, and that was 315 USD.

[untold palm]

Rip. Still not as bad as it could be.

[stoic orbit]

$375CAD, €245, $530AUD, $625NZD For those curious

[full tapir]

Maybe only one box after all

[kindred ledge]

They'll pick the most favourable exchange rate that ever was in place over the years and roll with that

[tepid crown]

Do libers and rule book get released at same day as box?

[zealous wharf]

Let's hope so!

[hot tundra]

Rulebooks for marines, mech, knights, and solaux are confirmed to be releasing at launch day iirc

Custodes and SoS will also get physical rules, but will be delayed by a few months for unspecified reasons. However at launch they will have pdf rules, similar to the index rules that 40k and AoS have used in the past.

No word on specifically daemons or ICM rules, but they'ev confirmed that legacy rules will exist in one form or another

[kindred ledge]

"unspecific"

[hot tundra]

I mean the reason was unspecified. There are some strong theories, but they're just theories for now

[kindred ledge]

I know, I was just having a laugh

[dark lion]

Ohh ohh what are the theories?

[untold palm]

New plastic models for either sisters or custodes

[hot tundra]

Mainly that they were delayed so they could release along a range update

[flat grove]

Since they teased a guardian spear in the reveals, I'd bet on upscaled custodes with male and female heads. On the other hand, with the current competition between 40k and 30k I'm not sure how updating a range used in both systems would work.

[indigo kiln]

Might introduce some 30k uniques, or at least more Heresy coded armor?

[dire gale]

Custodes are unique as they kept basically all HH stuff in 40K and even got a whole detachment based around it so I wouldnt be surprised if the HH Custodes update is for both games in a way

[kindred ledge]

This yeah

[sweet sparrow]

Gw is keeping their other specialist games distinct from the main studio, as in the old world and age of sigmar. I suspect a new custodes kit would be geared for 30k and that's it

[kindred ledge]

The sudden inclusion of SoS units that were all new and did not have models in their HH2 Liber was kinda foreshadowing that

[fleet dew]

Hopefully. Then we can ne optimistic that they keep their style. If we even can use the word on three metres high superhumans in gold plated armour of course 🤪

[sweet geyser]

Yeah i think SoS are definitely getting a big selection of models this edition. I think they are the only "mainline" army that doesn't have a real range

[fleet dew]

I dearly hope so. I don't play the bunch but having a real all women range would be great. Plus when Necromunda released Escher on jetbikes and shortly after the liber arrived with sisters on jetbikes I clearly could see them in my inner eye and they looked glorious. They definitely will use their frame to put a sisters skin over it

[rapid hamlet]

reddit leak got taken down, does this look more like 8/9e or 7e?

[tribal jetty]

https://imgur.com/a/hh3-0-rules-so-far-2G2dwdx

[rapid hamlet]

ily kothra

[rapid hamlet]

other then the force org chart which i would want to laytest before coming to a conclusion , i feel like its pretty good, though i still have to read psychic abilities

[untold palm]

Pyromancer go boom. Is funny.

[tribal jetty]

not really

[dark lion]

Yeah that's fair I was being silly

[tribal jetty]

as a serious answer it sort of feels as different as 8th did but mostly in a very different direction

at least from what we've seen so far

[rapid hamlet]

Psychic weapons seem better

[zealous wharf]

I like the psychic disciplines. They're more varied, more thematic, and on the face of it they seem fairly balanced. My only concern is the perils of the warp giving out Stunned, because I think statuses are a bit harsh, but it will definitely give a sense of risk.

[rapid hamlet]

feels less harsh than ts losing our army special rule, but i get it

[zealous wharf]

Well, we don't know what the Legion rules are going to look like yet, so that's still wait-and-see. My main worry with the statuses is stuff like Biomancy - you boost a unit with it, but you also Perils with a double and now your unit can only fight at initiative 1, you may end up with some regrets.

But risk vs reward, as always. It should make for some fun games, at least.

[rigid canyon]

Gawt dayum £195? Last time around we had the 40marines + terminators with a massive Spartan and contemptor.

Now we get Saturnine dread + spider turret. doesn't excite me nearly as much

[full tapir]

Wont excite everyone but the turret and the saturnine stuff is huge and a lot of plastic, each saturnine is basically an old box dread or something

[rigid canyon]

Yeah they're very marmite miniatures aren't they.

[fleet dew]

I am looking forward for the turret. Putting a huge gun in the deployment zone sounds like fun but I always had a soft spot for fortifications

[rigid canyon]

I do want a squad just for plasma fun. No interest in most of the box outside of the mk2 marines though

[fleet dew]

40 mk2 guys is such a treat. What a huge pile of models that is. Plus 6 dudes as big as Castra Ferrum Dreadnoughts and one toddler sized dreadnought plus the huge gun.

[kindred ledge]

That pavise also seems quite tasty with it's large footprint

Won't be getting the box myself as the units in are not for me, but I appreciate that they exist in plastic.
(Will try to yoink 2 sprues of Mark 2 tho)

[kindred ledge]

Is this a leak or speculation? Bit hard to tell

[dark lion]

Reavers being stuck to chainaxes would be so ridiculously dumb

Anyways I'm choosing to not believe this because I think it's too dumb a decision to make

Medusan immortals being only able to take bolters

Night Raptors stay losing 2 editions in a row

[sick nimbus]

Who wouldn't take firedrakes with all sheilds and hammers, or lerneans with chargers, axes and a cbeamer

[kindred ledge]

Headhunters would also be a question mark as they only come with combi-bolters, so likely would lose Combi-plasma's, combi-melta's AND the multi-melta.

#DoesNotWant

Would make the unit utterly useless

[dark lion]

Actually yeah this mostly hurts the traitors

[sick nimbus]

Yes

[dark lion]

They have a lot of legion specifics that need upgrades

[sick nimbus]

As always

[kindred ledge]

Cause infiltrating AND then punching really hard is kind of the whole point

[dark lion]

But yeah this feels like one of those doomer speculation things, like the people that were saying this edition will just be like 10th Ed 40k

[wraith pasture]

why would it only be temporary until a new kit is released that seems like a really backwards way of doing things given that will effectively null like 30 unit entries across 2 or 3 liber books

gw knows that HH thrives on its choice more than anything and has spent the better part of 2.0 releasing boxes to give you that choice

why would they THEN completely scuttle that initiative by taking it all away again... BUT ONLY FOR A BIT... until they release a full kit?

it doesnt make sense

[kindred ledge]

Some strays like Ebons from WS not being able to take power fists for example.

Cenobium would lose Hammers

But ye this does not seem very likely

[full tapir]

Theres not a chance of plastic legion kits lol, or with any speed, given we dont have all the basic units in plastic and it took them like 2 years for melee weapons

[sick nimbus]

Money mr squidward, money

[wraith pasture]

"hey lets release a melee weapons kit"

"Oh cool now we can give all those unique weapons to legion units that needed it"

"Oh no see, NOW we are restricting what a lot of units can take to what was in their original boxes!"

"But that would make people want to buy less not more?"

[fleet dew]

I wonder how Thunderhammer will be in 3ed. GW must know that they were seen as a problem in 2ed and tend to nerf problematic things.

[kindred ledge]

Would be pleasantly surprised by plastic legion kits, but considering Talons are still in resin mostly. Militia and Daemons are a giant questionmark and utterly resin/do-what-ever-you-want AND almost the entirety of Marine FA is still in resin jail.....I don't see it happening soon

[dark lion]

I can see plastic legion specific stuff, but also I know it'll take years before everyone gets their toys in plastic

[kindred ledge]

We do not even have plastic HH apothecaries and techmarines lol

[wraith pasture]

they have said they plan to make plastic legion specific stuff.

At some point

[dark lion]

Someone will get fucked over and have to wait 3+ years for their guys to be remade in plastic

[kindred ledge]

I reckon the vast majority will have converted theirs at that point with majority plastic and some resin bits

[fleet dew]

Single models will stay resin I tell you that

[kindred ledge]

by then

[wraith pasture]

also that. Imagine being last in the lineup having to play with the bare bones basic units whilst everyone else is having fun with new plastic units with full options and stuff

that would actually be legitimately fucking stupid

[dark lion]

Imagine if your FW legion specific models are beautiful amazing models, and then the plastic kit comes out and its the generic mk whatever body with an upgrade kit

[kindred ledge]

Like, give me plastic Combi-weapons and acces to decent sized AL breastplates and I'll just make my own headhunters thank you very much

[wraith pasture]

gw can be dumb in a lot of its decisions but i dont think they are that dumb

especially with the emerging cash cow that is hh

[kindred ledge]

Unless you have something super iconic, like the Justaerin...then it would suck

Far harder to convert convincingly

[wraith pasture]

youd need to play a popular legion to be first in line basically

and youre fucked if you play a less popular legion

[kindred ledge]

So:
Fists
SoH
WB
AL
?

Maybe IW/DA also in there

It ain't White Scars, I know that at least🤣

[dark lion]

Yeah I think it's fairly likely that something like the IH legion specific units, would be downgraded if made in plastic

[wraith pasture]

without seeing the play tester docs we dont know for sure if this is true or not

[kindred ledge]

I doubt the limiting is true honestly

[wraith pasture]

for all we know gw gave play testers a stripped down document

[kindred ledge]

It would create a very big divide between UU's with good loadouts and those with bad that had their good options taken away

[median hawk]

I remain doubtful tbh. Just because x heard y, and y was accurate doesn't mean z is true.

[full tapir]

By the same logic things like cataphracti would only get fists/claws until the new kit, why would they only restrict the unique units? Then have to make new libers every year for the new releases?

[median hawk]

No - you just PDF/Errata at that stage.

Which they've been fairly willing to do during 2e, at least when new sponsons were added.

[dark lion]

Also limiting legion specifics to what the kits have but also having the arcane journal style units you have to convert seems kinda weird

[kindred ledge]

Yeah, so far we have only seen: "I am concerned about X or Y" and have seen no evidence of it happening.
Even what's posted above are just a couple of whatsapp screenshots of what people guess or think might happen

[last bone]

My justaerin rocking up with no weapons

[kindred ledge]

Not beating the "no arms" allegations (sorry, I'll see myself out)

[crisp tulip]

Im I reading this right, and legion unique units are coming to plastic?

[median hawk]

We were told that quite a while back, yeah.

[full tapir]

Gotta spin the wheel to see if your legion needs to wait 6 months or 6 years though

[last bone]

So no arms? Throws phone

[tropic granite]

If they came out and said "we will 100% release plastic Headhunters in the next 6 years" I would be fine with that

At least we'd know

[kindred ledge]

Ye, tho I would have good and updated looking models already by that point of my own converting

I think filling out the plastic range for general units is more important at this time

[fleet dew]

https://tenor.com/view/monty-python-im-invincible-black-knight-just-a-flesh-wound-your-arms-off-gif-11996860

[last bone]

That seems to be a problem with a lot of the 30k releases, they take so long people often have already printed or converted their own solutions

[sudden walrus]

Just take the disintegrators. I have already seen stls for them lol

[last bone]

And like I have 4 different saved saturnine STLs lol

[tropic granite]

Give me the Banestrike/Kraken/Nemesis/Shotgun box and I'll be happy

Dumb that we don't even have Recon weapons in the pipeline

Unless they're waiting to do a heresy scout kit in 2028

[fleet dew]

I build a unit Nullificators with Disintigrators half a year ago or so 😄

[kindred ledge]

Inb4 that the "half-year/3 quarters in year" boxset is gonna be:

20-30 Mark 4, a bike squad and a Landspeeder or 2.
Maybe a Sabre as well

Kinda like that Mark 3, Raider, Deredeo box that I am currently forgetting the name of

That's what I hope at least

[dark lion]

I'd expect one thing in the box to be some already released thing during 3rd

[kindred ledge]

The M2 Assault Marines that are in the pipeline maybe

[grave plume]

eh, i don't think mkii assaults will be held back for a battle force box

they were already previewed as their own thing

something like that mkiv box you suggested would be nice, don't know that GW will do it, but it would be nice
just wait until i can scoop up, like, 40 more pairs of current mkiv arms for compatibility with the FW heavy weapons before discontinuing mkiv

[kindred ledge]

He said something that would have been released already at that point, hence I picked those

And something heavier for a unit would not make sense in that box

[manic quartz]

40 MkIV, Special Weapon sprue, ||Rhino Advancer.||

[tropic granite]

40 MkIV, Special Weapon sprue, ||Space Marine Attack Bike||

[wanton kiln]

||But NOOOO, you don't understand aly, it was bad when PanO wrote that unit, but if GW do it it'll be GREAT!!!1! /s||

[manic quartz]

||More like PanSLOPtica. 😏||

[solemn oak]

Has anything else for vehicles leaked? Or is it still just the damage table

[tribal jetty]

nothing else

[solemn oak]

Oof

The leakers skull HAS to be on James workshops desk or some shit.

[real agate]

Such a doomposting bs imo

[tepid crown]

I think they'll be the same as the saturnine hammer, maybe without the crit

Sx2, AP2, D3

[full tapir]

Probably just D2 with some rule or other, concussive somethingorother like they used to be

We have fancy status effects again now

[crisp tulip]

Hes been posting on /tg/ building models from the box

He just hasnt posted any more screenshots of the book

[pale basalt]

that is what they want you to think

in reality he is sleeping with the fishes

[grave plume]

finally, the only person on /hhg/ who will post models

[onyx condor]

/hhg/ doing more than just complaining?

[fleet dew]

Probably but since everbody complained about them being the auto pick I could imagine the nerfed it harder

[tepid crown]

D3 makes them pretty niche imo.

Power fist edition, probably D2, calling it now

[fleet dew]

Depends on the point cost as usual

[pale basalt]

them no longer having brutal kinda removes their major upside

assuming that you just make a single save for every attack and not per wound

[dull jewel]

I just kit bash my legión units

Its pretty fun really

[grave plume]

yea, as long as they put out the rules for extant legion specifics, it doesn't matter whether they have official models for the most part, you can still use the rules

official models are nice and all, but its a DIY hobby

[dull jewel]

Specially with 3d printers nowadays

A pack to make 5 praetorians costed me 150 mxn (around 5 euros)

[surreal hornet]

I imagine thunder hammers will be d2 with critical hits

Objectively superior to power fists in terms of raw stats, but not in a useful sense most of the time, you still want one over a fist for characters, but its no longer the godpick

[queen dagger]

I really hope this isn’t the case stares at my 40 Immortals all with chainswords 😬😬😬 lol

[dark lion]

Yeah I think the rumor is a bit BS, but who knows

[acoustic gale]

you knew the risks when you built loadouts GW doesn't sell

[hidden flame]

Gw doesnt sell a lot of stuff for 30k that has rules. There were no risks.

[acoustic gale]

There was also no risk of a 3 year edition treadmill yet here we are

[bronze oxide]

Biggest community houseruling ever if this stuff happens

A good 45 of my 60 raptors have none of the box options....

[queen dagger]

Tbf it would be odd for them to remove options. F’rex, I can just as easily take an arm and a chain sword from the melee weapons kit. Et voila! A conversion for my Immortals, and I’ve had to spend extra money to do so.

But it’s GW, let’s be real. Lord knows what they’re thinking ha

[queen dagger]

Tbf unless they gave the units spicy rules, you’d be stuck such a stupidly limited unit as to not really bother so I’m taking this rumour with the required bag of salt

[bronze oxide]

I dont believe it personally but i have heard it kinda thing

The rage from the community towards gw would soon get them releasing a wargear pdf id imagine...

[queen dagger]

Quite. Not much point worrying about owt until we actually get the Libers! I’m more concerned about my every increasing pile of shame lol

[fleet dew]

We have to write real letters of complaint in that case. Not bickering in chatrooms, real action with real paper. If they get a couple of thousand letters it will be a lot more effective than just emailing

[bronze oxide]

The pile of shame is eternal. Since i sold a ton of my legions my remaining 3 have grown even bigger. Defo see my nightlords being past 30,000 points easily

[indigo kiln]

we've had one 3-year edition, that's not a pattern yet

[tranquil epoch]

HH2 also came out right on the heels of COVID, for all we know it might have been delayed and not intended to be a 3 year edition

it's definitely worrying but unless we get 4th ed in 3 years there's not much of a solid, uninterrupted pattern to go on

[silent yoke]

its not like a three year cycle is actually locked in stone. its a public company that can change its mind whenever it wants

the amount of change that happens in a company in three years is massive

[acoustic gale]

as soon as they figure out how to get more money for less effort

[silent yoke]

so any plan that is even there today could be totally different then

[silent yoke]

???

you mean the fundamental objective of all business ever?

[acoustic gale]

ah, indoctrination

[silent yoke]

weird take

[timid cliff]

Till proven wrong i asume a six year cycle taking turns with ToW

[acoustic gale]

That would make sense, so probably not
Also HH is apparently a "big three" game and TOW is not

But TOW got a big, reasonably thought out balance patch 18 months in, we got a "shrapnel bolters aren't bolters" FAQ and f.u. until you buy the next book

[raven marsh]

That's what makes me think 3e was always being designed

They didn't have anyone working on up keeping 2e, and it was basically just a halfway thing

[merry maple]

it's wishful thinking but I think I would be sold with HH and ToW being on an alternating 6 year cycle.

[acoustic gale]

even 6 is a stretch for how big and expensive the books are. oh for the days of MESBG that was practically the same game for 10+ years with the occasional new starter with a new cover and errata incorporated

[median hawk]

Not a game - a brand.

This comes up regularly.

It's one of the big three "brands" at the company; each one covering multiple games, licensed partnerships, the novel side, animation, etc.

[silent yoke]

if you actually read and use the books they are not that expensive of an investment over 3 let alone 6 years. the issue is dropping all that money to play 2 games a year with an old army that there was no recent time invested into and then having do it again 18-30 months later

like almost all hobbies, this one is an investment but gets better and better the more you actually participate in it

[solemn oak]

https://imgur.com/a/dcKhPGI

Vehicle rules are in here

And I've seen the weapon page. It looks mostly the same. But sponsons count as defensive weapons now!

[acoustic gale]

Maybe GW could have a little indicator, like the one for minimum age requirement. "You must be this invested for this product to be worth buying"

[pale basalt]

how would you measure that?

[wanton kiln]

"Local Wargamer reinvents gatekeeping for no discernible reason: more at 11"

[kindred ledge]

Hasn't it been that way for a while in WH? Time tends to be a flat circle within the WH community

.
Also, any new "stirrings" about the new edition

Besides the standard rulebook stuff we've seen

[silent yoke]

This isn’t complicated. It’s a hobby. You typically have to use it to get your value.

Whether it’s warhammer, drums, cooking, or anything else people consider to be one.

[timid cliff]

Shit talking on the internet gets better the more invested the opposite person is 🙃

[crude flare]

I'm just going to throw in my tuppen'orth on the side of feeling a bit hard-done-to by the new edition. Not, ironically, by what's in it, most of which seems pretty good (although I detest the writing style); but a big part of what attracted me to the game system was the implication that it would be a more stable/less churn-y thing than the main tentpole games which have that pure 3-year cycle.

Maybe it's not moving to that cycle, but to be honest it looks a lot more likely than not. If anything, the two data points suggest 4th will be along in about 14 months...

And, yeah, sure, a company can do whatever it wants; but just because you can do something doesn't mean you should do something

[fleet dew]

I would say they had to so a new edition. Solar Auxilia, Imperial Knights, Salamanders, Thousand Sons and other had really bad written and/or made rules and needed a refresh. Reactions, Telepathy, Contemptors, Stone Gauntlet and many other needed to be re-worked. Basically the edition suffered the death of many cuts

[stoic orbit]

I'm definitely having mixed feelings regarding the edition vs the implications as well. I'm not jumping to conclusions just yet as it's just a single data point.

IF we do get another edition in three years then yeah gw can go fun themselves and I'll take my business elsewhere ofc, but right now I'm not sure if that's happening.

Right now I think I'm going to at least have some fun with this edition, I do like most of the changes

[wraith pasture]

any new leaks

or what was the last relevant leak

[tribal jetty]

the shooting/terrain/los rules

[zealous wharf]

Agreed. Heresy 2e died off in my local group because the games just didn't feel that fun, it started being dominated by cheesy lists and the games weren't particularly varied or interesting. Loads of people are coming back for the new edition, so hopefully it lands and has a bit more momentum to carry it into the future.

[wraith pasture]

hopefully this time it allows for more armies to have fun instead of just being npcs for the favoured factions to push around

[pale basalt]

the introduction of damage characteristics is a big draw for me

[fleet dew]

It didn't die in my group. We rarely played because of live but the game itself was ok. Half of them doesn't understand why GW makes a new edition at all and I guess at least two of them loose interest because they are doomsayers basically but the edition by itself had some major rules problems from the get go.

[pale basalt]

i am tired of having t5 being some godly threshold

[surreal hornet]

Theres probably still going to be a "god threshold", probably at 3w

That's just inevitable, there's always going to be the range of "this is what most weapons kill" and the the things that exist just beyond it which are now much tougher

[pale basalt]

but not to the same extent

a termie will take 1 melta shot currently but a ogryn will take 3

we wont see the same major difference with the new system

a lascannon standing still will kill a termie in 1 shot and an ogryn in 2

in 2.0 weapons just weren't designed around having all these dreads and big models going around

[surreal hornet]

One could argue the ogryn (or custard, or GVB) was previously balanced around the fact that they bypassed the usual ID threshold

T5 was not a common thing to have, your usual marine army had what, dreads and speeders as the only source of more than t4?

Its what made the SoH rule or biomancy so potent (potentially)

[full tapir]

The SoH rule is really annoying

Didnt feel bad at all when they faqd moritats to join whatever units

[surreal hornet]

Well yes, that's the point of it, -1s doesent really matter much a lot of the time, except it throws off the ID thresholds for the most common weapons people run around with

And I'm sure there's going to be some new equivalent in the new edition, some -1D rule or a unit which has a wound more than you would expect or whatever, and all the D2 weapons people might be running with are now half as good, the dynamic is ultimately both unavoidable and healthy

[full tapir]

I know from 40k that -1 damage is stupid good and shouldn't blanket exist on an army, the -1s is painful enough even when you arent trying to ID them

[hot tundra]

A -X damage rule is already confirmed to exist with Eternal Warrior

We know all of the primarchs will have it to some degree

[surreal hornet]

-1s matters in two situations, with generic mook combat or for ID purposes. Basically all good weapons dont have any issues wounding, between legion rules, shred or simply s>=6 the to wound part of melee strength is not super relevant.

Messing with the ID threshold is what justifies it as a legion rule, rather than having it not exist past despoiler combat

[surreal hornet]

Who knows, maybe some unit/legion is going to have "-1D in first round"

God knows "-1s in first round" would be borderline worthless this edition

Or maybe it will be "-1 to wound" instead now

[hot tundra]

I bet saturnine could get some good use out of it

[surreal hornet]

Maybe, although I suspect they're Fd if they get stuck in combat anyways

[hot tundra]

Tough as nails with a hard hitting melee weapon and a decent WS. They're probably not terrible in melee

And of course they have good shooting to soften up the enemy before you get to grips with them

Like in a straight fight against non-saturnine termis, WS4 vs WS4, power fist vs power fist, the saturnine should come out ahead thanks to not getting one shot by enemy power fists, while their power fists will one shot the enemy termis. Of course the normal termis will have the model count advantage, but thats what pre-combat shooting is for.

And hopefully the WS nerf to dreads is an indicator that WS5 will be rarer than it was in 2.0. Or at least will have a proper price premium put on it

Plus the new FOC could potentially make it harder to spam those WS5 units if GW puts them in the right slots

[full tapir]

You'd think so but not quite

Math says 3 saturnine kill 1 cataphracr on average

40% for 1 kill 66% for 2 kills

[pale basalt]

the real question for 3.0 is how common feel no pains are

[full tapir]

But for the same.cost you get 5 catas who also only kill 1

[pale basalt]

if a primus medicae still gives out a 5+

[full tapir]

But that one dead saturnine is worth a lot more than the one dead cata

[pale basalt]

then it is close to an autoinclude for bigger squads

which will mean those big termie blobs become a nightmare

[surreal hornet]

They have a comparable damage output to a single terminator while being near twice the cost, and if terminators become t5 they're not even wounding on 2s

The issue isn't their absolute stats, but how expensive they are for those stats

[full tapir]

2 attacks at ws4 will do little into 4++ and even less into WS5, i doubt theyre worth it unless you specifically want the flamers

But instead you could get 2 rounds of shooting with the bombards even if they are just rending 6s

[surreal hornet]

Disintigrator shooting obviously helps kill terminators, but they also overheat, a double gun squad loses a dude or so every time they shoot

[full tapir]

Or breaching or whatever

[surreal hornet]

Yea, that's what it feels like

[pale basalt]

5+ if overcharged

[surreal hornet]

They seem very niche, either a DS flamerbomb, cheap double bombard chaff killers, or double D gun elite killers that also explode

[full tapir]

Ah even better

[pale basalt]

they are just a good unit based on what we know

they still have a rule or two that we dont know yet

[surreal hornet]

I don't think they're very good, not in a generic sense, but they have their uses

Like i dont see them becoming a staple unit, but I think they will shine every now and then in the right circumstances

[full tapir]

I'm sure the double bombards will put in work

[pale basalt]

60 points for 2 barrage plasma cannons is likely a pretty good deal

i doubt that 2 HSS with plasma cannons will cost much less than that

shorter range but barrage is very good

it is also just barrage that scatters 1d6

so the chance of missing entirely is pretty low

[full tapir]

Bombard vs needing LoS even if you can move, and we dont know what heavy rule the regular cannons will have

[surreal hornet]

The 24" range might hurt though

[full tapir]

Eh deployment is 24 between just walk forward

[surreal hornet]

Especially since they really want to stay still. I could see them being a great denial unit though, just staying in the middle of the board and blasting infantry to bjts

[surreal hornet]

They only fire 1 if they move

[full tapir]

Then go second :p

Not saying that regular cannons will be useless, but barrage is pretty good

[surreal hornet]

Oh sure, I think there's a world where they put in work

I just don't think its going to be every game, not like plasma HSS were something you saw super often right?

[acoustic gale]

If I pick up drums again after 3 years Yamaha won't tell me I need a new set to play tho

[real agate]

But it will tell you how great the newest set is. Just like GW.

[pale basalt]

old rulebooks are always playable

but the rulebook isnt the set of drums

the models are the drums

the rulebook is more like a subscription to whatever software you use to make music and edit (which you can just pirate)

[fleet dew]

https://tenor.com/view/drum-twerk-twerking-dog-chinese-man-chinese-drum-gif-26141842

[pale basalt]

https://tenor.com/view/i-saw-w-gus-fring-gus-gustavo-deleted-gif-25440636

[acoustic gale]

Okay, 6 years.

[solemn oak]

So I haven't seen it in any leaked pics yet. But I had a minute to physically look through a 3rd edition book. Immediately went to the vehicles. Centraline, sponson, hull, and turret all still remain unchanged from their current forms. And all sponson weapons count as defensive

[pale basalt]

you wasted that minute then

it already leaked

[near hull]

The only things that haven't leaked from the rulebook (off the top of my head) are the movement phase, and the section that has the various tables, and other small bits

[solemn oak]

Cool, well, I hadn't seen that page yet so, maybe share where the most recent leaks are?

[near hull]

I'm sure someone else has the links to hand, but stuff ends up in https://discord.com/channels/832649952043204659/1371887419242315956 first
Since it's the more active channel

[acoustic gale]

and core principles I think. like "what is a unit" and "the result of a dice roll is the number on the topmost facing of the dice after it has been rolled"

[solemn oak]

Thank you 🙏🏻

[hidden cave]

any new leeks throughout the weekend?

[late sparrow]

Most recent stuff was vehicles, shooting, and terrain.

[full tapir]

Terrain caused quite a stir i think

[late sparrow]

Shooting did too.

[hidden cave]

whats different about shooting?

[hidden cave]

wound allocation?

[short tiger]

Does anyone have a link to the most recent compilation? Would be good to see terrain rules

[hidden cave]

.

not much info

[short tiger]

tyvm

Is terrain in any albums?

[hidden cave]

in the linked one

but it's just a fragment of whole rules, and yet it looks more like 40k

[short tiger]

Am I just being blind because I can't see it

[hidden cave]

you're right, terrain rules are not in the album. Here you go

[short tiger]

Looks like good changes to me

[hidden cave]

it depends if you prefer 2D terrain or more immersive stuff

models are not blocking LOS anymore (except for vehicles) so you can play on fully 2D table now with the new ruleset

[bright cave]

Yeah not a fan of the move to 40k style terrain, ala heavy terrain blocks all LoS through and in. Bc as written 2 units in the same heavy terrain piece can’t see each other even if like 2“ away. Medium terrain is alright, it harkens back to how terrain was in 5th and earlier I believe (see 3“ into and out of)

[fleet dew]

You joking but I have seen wild discussions about the first one several times. And about what a model is.

[fleet dew]

https://imgur.com/a/dcKhPGI

[acoustic gale]

I'm not joking at all

we've already seen in the scans GW state that the result of a dice roll is the number on top

the core concepts chapter is going to be wild

[fleet dew]

I mean the only rule so far they didn't explain at all was that for line of sight and it cause a major uproar. It is so vague it is ridiculous

[zealous wharf]

That and terrain definitions. For all the massive over-specification of the bulk of the ruleset, every rule I've seen has had me (once I've sifted through all the words) nodding along and thinking it sounds like good changes. Terrain and line of sight were incredibly brief and vague and it's like what in the goddamn hell is this?

[sudden walrus]

You don't understand, they didn't fit another paragraph in, after explaining charges over 5 pages

[merry maple]

just seen the leak for terrain and line of sight ... was actually pretty hyped by 3rd but those two basically killed the hype for me.

terrain rules going 40k style is not something I want period, It's just so unflavored and boring.

line of sight rules being so basic basically mean that as written if you can see the tips of a weapon or a plume or whatever and be able to see and shoot, that's not a nice thing in my opinion, it's one of the things that in my opinion make 40k LoS bad.

[full tapir]

They removed the 'only kill whats in LoS' thing?

[hidden cave]

it's going to be quite opposite - if you see a plume and something is block LOS partially (like vehicle or heavy cover) then you cannot shoot

[hidden cave]

sadly yes

[kindred ledge]

So hold up.

It's now: Oh, if you're behind this thing, no matter how tall your shit is, cannot be seen?

L shape city?

[hidden cave]

L shape city so far

[full tapir]

i need to read them again.. it was.. see 3" through medium? Or into medium but not through?

[merry maple]

except now only heavy cover and vehicle do that, in HH2 it's a base rule regardless of what is hiding you.

[kindred ledge]

OOF,

Having said that, if you play HH events, (or events in general), terrain rules may be moddified. Happens a lot in 40k and don't see why not for HH. So, while this is a bit sad, it's at least a bit that's easily modified by the community.

Unless you play a GW event, but GW has zero HH events to my knowledge

[hidden cave]

yeah I know, I didnt say I like that change

[kindred ledge]

For local tho.....probably best to discuss with your local scene

Don't love the new rules for terrain from what I can see, but at least those are easily changed (and tbf, 40k boards look boring as F)

[full tapir]

Looking it doesnt seem the worst, its not tlos but just as if all windows are blocked? Or were ruins area terrain?

[hidden cave]

big squads wont see much love this edition, I think we're going MSU mode

[kindred ledge]

Ehhh, I am not so sure about that. with the bolter changes, 20 man tac blocks are not gonna be an easy opponent

[safe oar]

60 bolter shots

[full tapir]

I do that already with HoO and its decent enough now

[zealous wharf]

I would have liked to see a lot more detail in terms of terrain types, but yeah, it's easy enough to add those back in if necessary. And I'm going to give the basic rules a go just to see how they play - it does seem like they would keep the game fast-paced and lethal, so they might be fun even if I don't think they make much sense.

[pale basalt]

the LOS is an easy fix for any groups unhappy with it

[hidden cave]

with only 1 model visible from out of the cover the whole unit can be killed

[zealous wharf]

It basically means that "hiding" as a concept is barely a feature of the game, it only really applies when you're in Heavy terrain, or more than 3" from the edge of Medium terrain. Otherwise you just don't worry about hiding, you and your opponent can shoot whatever you want.

Which isn't really to my taste as an initial reaction, but I can see how it would make games faster to play.

[kindred ledge]

Depends.

If you have a low model count unit, they will likely go. if you have a giant block -> remove a couple of casualties and you'll be A okay.

Also, FNP's seem to work vs any strength weapons now, so large blobs with apothecaries are likely still a common sight

Interestingly, vehicles can block LoS for other units, but non-vehicles can't

[full tapir]

I'm having a hard enough time already figuring out what workable terrain is, no idea anbout 3rd

[hidden cave]

I dont think you can take multiple apothecaries anymore - they seem to be limited to slots

[kindred ledge]

Depends on if that slot is a single model or apothecarion detachment

Also, depends on faction unique detachments that are heavily rumoured

[hidden cave]

they gave up on squadrons and talons, it's very likely that the apothecarion detachments are gone as well

[full tapir]

I think working all the time regardless of str is enough to make them more limited, you can fill your commands lots with primus i guess too?

[hidden cave]

also dedicated transports are gone

[kindred ledge]

I personally think it is super unlikely that they will mean single models as Techmarines are very likely also in tac support section, as is HSS

[hidden cave]

everythings separate now

[kindred ledge]

Or everyone has to take like 3 tac support detachments per list

1 for your apothecaries, 1 for your techmarines (if you run vehicles) and 1 for your third apothecary and a single HSS.
Yeah, I don't think that is very likely

[hidden cave]

that's a fair tax if you consider new ulimited powers of battlesmith and feel no pain rules

[kindred ledge]

Perhaps, don't think it's likely tho.

If it IS.....I will be putting 2 centurions in every list I write no questions asked

Unless my faction get's a unique detachment with more slots

[zealous wharf]

Our 3e terrain is basically going to be ruins of various sizes, based. That's Medium Area Terrain with levels, which is the main thing you'll want - the rulebook recommends two 10"x10" areas and four 6"x6" areas. Other than that, some LoS-blocking obstacles (they recommend six) that are no larger than 4"x4".

If you're confused about 2e terrain, 3e is at least going to make that whole thing much simpler.

[kindred ledge]

There is also tactical benefit shit now that I think about it. Dammit GW, show us the entire chart and options already. This is way too confusing

[hidden cave]

they only teased one HQ model profile and it has very specified and limited special rule, if each of consuls, centurion and 3 other types of praetors gets one as well you might find yourself seriously giving up on those additional slots just to boost a specific build

[zealous wharf]

I really hope they have a better way of taking Apothecaries and Techmarines than one per Support slot. That seems ridiculous to me.

[kindred ledge]

That depends.

1. What sort of army are you even playing, what are the main components
2. Where do all units go specifically and how many each in each slot
3. What unique detachment does your faction have
4. Centurions give 2 detachments acces instead of 1, so if it does turn out to be a problem. Expect to see 1-2 per list

[zealous wharf]

I'm already struggling to see how my "a bit of everything" army is going to fit into the FOC without needing to spend multiple Aux detachments on medics and techs.

[green torrent]

we live in a society

[kindred ledge]

Which is why I am annoyed that they haven't showed us the units and all that exactly

Yes, it get's the talk going, but what they say only raises further quesitons

[hidden cave]

articles this week are meant to explain a bit of how the factions work now

[full tapir]

It was mostly finding what to make, wanted enough LoS blocks to not give HSS free reign in ruinsx dense enough for units but not so dense there was literally only one way spartans can drive

[kindred ledge]

I play combined arms, I feel this.

3 apothecaries
3x 20 tacs
1-2 techmarines now that I want to play 4 tanks

....this is sure gon be something

I am aware that that's the point of the articles, my annoyance is that they have a tendency to tell you something but not what you exactly want to know.

E.g. that one tac status that makes you worse at shooting: is this -1 to hit or snapshots. Tell me what it does

Now, we do know this due to the leaks, but that's besides the point

[zealous wharf]

Yeah, that's a lot trickier in 2e. In 3e, it barely matters what you build, and if you just make it all Medium terrain it seems like it will play just fine.

[kindred ledge]

Or medium with the 2 or otherwise big pieces in the middle maybe heavy or something

[full tapir]

Yeah, got my 10th ruins that everyone is sick of I guess

[green torrent]

i feel like the opposite of L city is going to happen actually

[kindred ledge]

Speak of the devil 🤣

[green torrent]

since you can make a swiss cheese ruin and then say "its heavy terrain" and boom problem solved

[dark lion]

Forest central babeyyyyy

[green torrent]

instead of "my hss peeks through a bullet hole in that buildings wall and sees your sarges helmet lens, prepare to taste a wrath of thousand suns nerd"

[zealous wharf]

I can't see myself using much Heavy terrain, putting a unit in there is basically like taking them out of the game (unless they have Barrage weapons, in which case they're a bunker that's immune to all shooting, which seems a bit crazy).

[full tapir]

I like this one from a RiftForge recent batrep, but dont know how practical it will actually be

[green torrent]

screw practicality, it looks cool

which is all that matters

[pale basalt]

i have played a lot of games with those space ship parts

it is great

works very well for LOS blocking

though the middle part with the spire sucks

it does not really block LOS and is a pain to move through

[full tapir]

I guess it will a good deal in 3.0 with seeing 3" in?

[kindred ledge]

Maybe one piece in the middle to provide a bit of unconditional cover.

You don't want a shooting gallery either

1 or 2 in the middle section methinks is likely the most fair between cover and space to move yo shit

[zealous wharf]

A piece of Medium terrain blocks LoS too. Heavy means nothing that goes in can see anything... yeah it's not a shooting gallery for sure, but it turns the whole area into a melee-only zone instead, which I feel is too far the other way.

[kindred ledge]

That is a fair concern, which is why I think 1 at most 2 pieces should be used. plonking the entire table full of heavy terrain is just asking for trouble.

Would have to see how it all plays out to find out for sure what the "correct" number is

[zealous wharf]

Yeah, definitely going to have to see it in action to get a feel for it.

[kindred ledge]

What I do know from 40k is that if you drown the table in such heavy terrain and such, vehicle players will be very unhappy

[zealous wharf]

I don't think Heavy vs Medium matters for vehicles much, does it?

[pale basalt]

cover saves?

have we seen any of the restictions on cover saves for vehicles?

[quaint torrent]

They can get cover saves

[pale basalt]

but are they still limited on how they get them?

or do they work the same as other models now?

[green torrent]

barrage doesnt care for los so wont care about heavy

whos laughing now, saturnine plasma haters? :D

[zealous wharf]

Cover saves are very simple now, if you're in Area terrain you get them and if you're not you don't. That's the same for vehicles as it is for everyone else.

[quaint torrent]

Yeah as long as they meet the criteria they get it

[hidden cave]

so as long as they're inside of them

you no longer get cover saves by hiding behind something

which means that for the most of tables vehicles wont get covers at all unless you redesign all the terrain pieces to have and area around it for tanks to cover in, BUT that will limit the LOS from within these building for other minis hiding in it

so the conclusion is to draw simple 2d terrain on the table itself

[kindred ledge]

Why are you always like this?🤣

[acoustic gale]

do we know that for a fact

or is that conjencture based on the area terrain paragraph

[pale basalt]

whoever is placed under a roof

[acoustic gale]

we have not seen the actual cover save rules (p. 198)

[green torrent]

on purpose, obviously

[green torrent]

i will crush the roof

[kindred ledge]

At this point, I would be surprised if it wasn't

[green torrent]

hydra dominatus

[kindred ledge]

Yes brother

[full tapir]

I'm having a stroke reading that my brain is too smooth for this edition

Ok nevermind i think it just means you can target whatever floor you want as long as theres a model on that floor? Or something?

[pale basalt]

nobody knows

[green torrent]

as im reading it:
1, Floors are not considered separate instances of terrain and are part of the same terrain feature (datguy special)
2. Blasts and Barrages can attack the uppermost floor and target the models below it

so we wont have someone placing the model in the position indicated on the pic with shoddy "1", and then claim immunity from barrages

[full tapir]

Makes sense, yeah

[indigo kiln]

That tracks

[green torrent]

3.0 rulebook gives a heavy vibe of that they had a normal human rulebook and then went to a nearest FLGS, took the most devoted sweaty sportlord, made him play three back to back games, and each time he would say "uhm, actually...." they would just break the rule in question in the most detailed way possible and then put it there

[acoustic gale]

so conjencture

[silent yoke]

This is exactly how I hope they did it

Because I want to remove all uhm actually for ambiguous rules interpretations

[green torrent]

idk, people were quite mad about it judging by the responces for the last idk week or so :D

[silent yoke]

Yeah but they don’t run events lol

And no one uses the book for basic rules after they learn. So bring on the verbosity

[green torrent]

or they employ a healthy amount of socknaughts

[silent yoke]

I do think it could probably be cleaned up. But I prefer verbosity over ambiguity

[pale basalt]

do we still have that 4+ rule on disputes?

cant lose a classic like that

[green torrent]

i just wish that in their faq theyd pivot in the opposite direction from the overly formal language they usually use

like, if someone finds a loophole, dont make a two sentence patch, just something like "hi, its Dave from rules team, and this rule was intended to do X. Pls stop, people, im worrying for your sanity"

[acoustic gale]

Nah it feels like they put it through a Recurrent Neural Network trained on nothing but GW rulebooks

that's why rules loop back in on themselves

"Models with X are granted X if they have X"

[flat grove]

That's how you end up needing an FAQ for the FAQ

[green torrent]

Id bet someone elses starter set thats coz of stuff like firedrakes or SoC warlord trait where models have a rule saying "you can reroll this type of rolls" or "you can do this kind of stuff" so the logical and sane and just response was to claim that me, the player, is "you" in this instance

[fleet dew]

Draw a line from the model to the target can mean both. True line of sight or stupid look from above 2d abstract.

[acoustic gale]

so conjencture

you're basing your entire understanding of cover saves on the rules for one specific type of terrain, without seeing the cover saves section

come back with page 198

[fleet dew]

It says wherever your models are in the building you put the blast on the top floor and hit everything beneath it on one level

[fleet dew]

I agree. In 2ed we also had area terrain which granted a cover save if you inside of it no matter if you really are in cover or not and we had regular terrain like barricades and stuff. We do not know at this point

[full tapir]

On all floors?

[fleet dew]

It even says specifically that the rule is this way so that models in different floors ar not better protected from barrage.

[fleet dew]

Yes

[full tapir]

https://tenor.com/view/godzilla-final-wars-gigan-cycloptic-laser-beam-laser-eye-gif-24514535

[pale basalt]

but how does that work keeping in mind the previous page?

[full tapir]

Frag missles

[pale basalt]

it says that barrage hits whatever floor the hole in the middle lands on

or something like that

are saying nothing has changed for barrage then?

because i am not sure that is the case

[fleet dew]

What has changed is that you place the blast always on top of the ruin or whatever you have as terrain.

[green torrent]

so, it looks like you can only attack models on a single level

thus you dont nuke the entire building

[fleet dew]

Yeah you are right

[teal basalt]

Yes, the paragraph you grabbed before states that you only hit the top floor if the target model is on or under one of the levels in the building

[green torrent]

so it goes like this i assume: place template at the top level -> scatter -> after determining the final position the uppermost level is targeted -> models there take hits, models on other levels are untouched

[teal basalt]

The uppermost level is hit if it is unclear which level the hole in the marker is over

[zealous wharf]

I would clarify that from "uppermost level" to "the highest level that completely covers the hole in the blast marker".

[green torrent]

this then means that if the model is on the Area Terrain but not on the one or another "level", then you dont need to target the uppermost level and can bonk the model

[zealous wharf]

If a level only half-covers the hole, you go to the floor below, and so on.

[green torrent]

oops wrong pic

[teal basalt]

Yeah. If you ain’t under a level you can’t be protected by it.

[green torrent]

so tldr would be
blast choose one level and then hit that level
templates hit the same level as the wielder
barrage always goes on top and works from there

id also add that 99% of the unit wont be able to game this system since you cant stay in coherency between levels unless the unit has skirmish

so i guess players cant just spread their HSS or something equally between all levels to have "blast protection"

[pale basalt]

isnt there a text on this?

it might not have leaked yet

99% sure there was a rule about this in 2.0

[green torrent]

could swear there was a line about levels counting as always being 3 inches apart

[pale basalt]

there is now

but 2.0 had a 5 inch vertical coherency if i remember right

[green torrent]

yeah here it is

[green torrent]

6 inches even

"Once a unit has finished moving, the models that comprise it must be no more than 2" horizontally and 6" vertically away from at least one other model in the same unit, and all models in the unit must form one single group – with no clusters of models in the unit separated by more than 2". This is referred to as being in ‘Unit Coherency’."

[wraith pasture]

"Can I cheat?"

"No."

[indigo kiln]

The David Cage Rule

[pale basalt]

at some point the FAQ team is just writing these questions themselves to pad out the document

to avoid the actually hard questions

sorry guys

we already answered 10 questions

[green torrent]

one might hope, because the alternative would be the fact, that there was indeed such an issue on a scale that required FAQing it

[indigo kiln]

(poster's commentary unlocked: notorious Frenchman and video game auteur David Cage was once in a court case where, while being sworn in, he asked if he could lie if he didn't swear his honesty)

[pale basalt]

it must bring such power being the person who wrote the rules

[green torrent]

Nah, it means people shittalking your stuff all the time. At least that was my experience with trying to write rules for a local campaign

Granted, this mighta happened because the rules were kinda shitty, but i digress

[zealous wharf]

Yeah, it's pretty brutal. As a game designer you need to be either very thick-skinned or very insulated, otherwise you'll get overwhelmed with negative criticism.

[tired furnace]

having contempt for the breeds that constantly cry about everything also works

[indigo kiln]

...breeds?

[surreal hornet]

So RoW are confirmed kill, shame

They did fix the SW legion trait though, so that's nice. One thing, they get to do one thing now, like legion traits should.

[dire gale]

Did they leak somewhere?

Oh no they just announced it really late

[surreal hornet]

The community page if that counts

The new SW trait seems really strong, but its so much better designed

[rigid canyon]

So to summarise:

Rites of war gone, every legion just gets their own aux detatchment.

Everyone gets a unique reaction, challenge gambit and "Prime" upgrade.

Legion rules now called "Tactica". Unclear whether you'll have a choice between multiple during list building.

Did I miss anything?

[undone walrus]

Everyone gets their own auxiliary detachment, SOME will also have an apex detachment on top of that

Also teasers on some examples of the above

[dire gale]

We don't know how many prime upgrades there will be technically per legion

Might be a few since they didnt mention WLTs

[rigid canyon]

They did not mention warlord traits or legion wargear at all either... Surely not 🤔 they wouldn't dare... cut them?

[late sparrow]

We might see an example of detatchments and wargear tomorrow with the traitor article.

[rigid canyon]

Oh nice yeah let's wait and see

[late sparrow]

They put out upgrade sets for a few legions, so probably not.

Unless blood angels and sons of horus are the only ones with legion gear.

And fist shields I guess.

[rigid canyon]

Or they're just cosmetic (please no)

[fiery widget]

0 reason to believe legion gear would go away

[near hull]

Warlord traits are the thing I suspect are gone, because the concept of warlord seems to be removed

[late sparrow]

I just want to be able to put shields on models with the command rule, since that seems to be the one replacing independant character.

For one model in particular.

One very large model.

[surreal hornet]

I don't think everyone gets a unique prime benefit, not like everyone got a unique consul

[surreal hornet]

Isnt slay the warlord still a thing?

[near hull]

Slay the Warlord is now a secondary objective for slaying a High Command unit

It seems to be removed from the concept of an army 'warlord'. Since they'd not have an objective called that, in a system with a separate warlord concept

[surreal hornet]

Its possible the two are interlinked now

Although I suppose that wouldn't work with primarchs well

[near hull]

It's not impossible, but it might mean you don't have warlords in a game without High Command by that logic

I wondered the same though, tbf

[dire gale]

It sounds like everyone probably will, even if they didnt have one before GW is looking at this HH version a bit more fresh and they would very likely want every legion on as equal a playing field as possible when it comes to stuff they have

[surreal hornet]

Yea, it might be one of the benefits locked to the slot, since you can now only have 1 high command (without burning a prime slot for a 2nd, which is specifically without any further benefits)

[near hull]

A little twist to this is that Master of the Legion still exists, so who the hell knows what THAT does

May be connected

[surreal hornet]

The day GW drops the faction favoritism is the day I walk into a store and get offered a discounted box and some 3d prints

[dire gale]

Plus if you look at Prime upgrades they give a Centurion as example but just say its a legion flavored upgrade for "common units"

[dire gale]

They still will obviously but coming in Fresh its likely every legion will have one or a few Prime upgrades

[surreal hornet]

Its possible, but if its just a rebrand of stuff like warsmiths and legion consuls then maybe not

Might also make mantle of the elder drake/mantle of ultramar prime benefits

[dire gale]

Likely its a combination of old WLTs and the Character upgrades, so for IW as example one could just be the Warsmith like we have now but then add a unique siege master upgrade and maybe a 3rd one

[dire gale]

No reason they wouldnt just add a few to the Legions that dont have one plus taking the WLTs and turn them into a few more

[surreal hornet]

I suppose we will have a slightly better idea tomorrow

[kindred needle]

have we had a shooting phase leak somewhere

[late sparrow]

Yes.

[kindred needle]

aight time to scroll

[rigid canyon]

Traitor article didn't really reveal more than we knew already.

Except boy do I hope legions get a choice of more than one Tactica - because only getting your legion rule if you fail a leadership test is yikes (for WE).

[median hawk]

https://discord.com/channels/832649952043204659/1371887419242315956

[rigid canyon]

Very fluffy though

[median hawk]

Leaks vs. actual reveals lol.

[rigid canyon]

Oh do we actually have to discuss them in separate channels?

[median hawk]

That's sort of the purpose of these channels tbf - conversation here should largely be kept to the leaks for example.

[rigid canyon]

Feels a bit extra but alright np

[fossil epoch]

Have we gotten any more leaks besides what we had a week ago?

[rigid canyon]

There's shooting phase leaks

https://imgur.com/a/dcKhPGI

It seems like you can wipe whole squads now even if they're not all in LOS (which sucks imo)

[last bone]

TLDR: actual strength is that WE functionally can't be pinned now

[pale basalt]

isnt it leadership tests?

isnt pinning a cool test?

[last bone]

It removes all tactical statuses

When you fall to the nails

[pale basalt]

but if you just get pinned then you stay pinned

it requires a leadership test beside that

which either comes from panic on flamers or losing 25%

that is my understanding

[last bone]

True, but I imagine if you get pinned you've probably lost more than 3 guys

[pale basalt]

i am not sure on that

it seems that the stauts tests only require being hit now

so it is easier to trigger

[last bone]

I'll wait to see how it shakes out tho, but I don't think it's as doom and gloom as people make it out to be

[short tiger]

Have we seen the rules around taking characteristic tests yet?

ie do we know if you always have to use the highest in a unit?

[pale basalt]

its an amazing trait

your army not being able to route is crazy

lost to the nails is just a bonus

[sudden walrus]

You need to be wounded still, but that wound can be safed and you still get to make the check

[short tiger]

Some status causing weapons require a Cool check not a LEadership check though

So you can't become lost to the nails to avoid being pinned

[sudden walrus]

They said in an earlier warcom article that you use the lowest, unless you got command or seargent as a rule

[last bone]

I'm not sure, if I played WE NGL imma just let the sarge get shot

[pale basalt]

i think that is most other than panic

leadership tests seem to come from panic and losing 25%

[last bone]

My boy is going to be armed with a disintegrator and a dream

[pale basalt]

even easier if artificer is gone

[last bone]

Waiiit

The guys who can take special pistols don't need to be the same as the one with power weapons right?

[crisp tulip]

WE Sgts about to get fragged just to trigger LttN

[last bone]

WE went from a red green deck to a black red deck lol

[pale basalt]

do note that overload is now on the unit and not the model

[sudden walrus]

correct, atleast in 2e

[pale basalt]

so a plasma guy could just choose to give the wounds to someone else

[last bone]

Hand me my 5 plasma pistols and chain axes

[pale basalt]

a game of hot potato with an exploding plasma gun

[last bone]

https://tenor.com/view/witness-rage-mad-max-gif-4527107021531365595

Fuck now I wanna play WE

[rigid canyon]

As a WE player, I'm hoping I get to choose something else. Leadership and pinning were never that big an issue for us in 2.0 outside of telepathy. Not having the extra charge bonus would feel sad, like I've lost something between editions.

[surreal hornet]

We lost an entire time of day

Bedtime adherence is in the codex astartes apparently

[quaint torrent]

Some are on hit, some are on wound. No longer need to have unsaved wounds.

[zealous wharf]

You didn't lose the night. Everyone just remembered that they were super-soldiers wearing far-future-tech armour with built-in multi-spectrum sensor arrays, and they could see perfectly well in the dark.

[last bone]

And the army of cyborgs who basically had army wide night vision through various means

[bright cave]

And the Solar Aux and normal humans just benefit from the perpetual daylight since they don’t have any of those lore justifications outlined

[warped arrow]

They definitely had access to scanners and other equipment that makes the time of day irrelevant.

[green torrent]

implying this thing called "Void Armour" doesnt have night vision thingy

[pale basalt]

night fighting was a nice rule but lorewise it does not make much sense

[winged vapor]

militia is the one that might not have widespread night vision

[indigo kiln]

Or like, some flashlights

[pale basalt]

militia is the only army where it really make sense

but a core game mechanic should not be based upon what would affect a fringe minor PDF faction

[dark lion]

@spice tide

There was an imgur link with all the rules leaks here somewhere, just give me a sec

https://imgur.com/a/dcKhPGI

I think this is the most complete imgur link of all the rules leaks we've seen

[spice tide]

Thanks!

[spice tide]

Looks like we don’t have the WS chart yet?

[surreal hornet]

Same as 2.0

[spice tide]

Darn

[timid cliff]

But no image as proof

[manic quartz]

I think a photo came from the stream flicking through the quickstart guide, which is what people are basing it off - though that doesn't necessarily mean it'll be the same in the actual core rulebook of course.

[tribal jetty]

That was the wound/toughness chart

The WS chart is the same according to the rulebook leaker, but a photo was never provided

[crystal granite]

That would be an epic troll if it actually was changed...

[acoustic gale]

excellent

[surreal hornet]

Basing it off the leaker saying so, but no video evidence as others have pointed out

[pastel slate]

I have seen it and it is the same, unfortunately

[inner swift]

do we have leaks for multi melta?

[late sparrow]

Core book is the only thing leaking currently.

[surreal hornet]

Yea, unfortunately no one stole a liber off the back of a truck yet

[last bone]

And took pictures in a whopping 240 p

[solemn oak]

Which genuinely surprises the hell out of me.

[surreal hornet]

To be fair, that's just how people photograph shit on there

Be thankful it didn't have feet in the images

[acoustic gale]

yes the official "leaks" have been taken with the same camera since 2004

[last bone]

Is it truly a Facebook marketplace photo until we see the grippers?

[wanton kiln]

Bad. No.

[last bone]

You've never lived until you've had to buy Warhammer from the face book market place

[wanton kiln]

I would rather eat a shoe

Or perhaps a hat

[wraith pasture]

I heard the FB market place warhammer scene has taken a significant dive into scam territory in recent years

[short tiger]

Someone remind me what new rending does?

Is it always wounds on X+?

Can’t find the album with USRs in it

[surreal hornet]

On a hit roll of X+ you automatically wound

The would is considered to be a natural 6, for the purposes of things like breaching and shred

[short tiger]

Cool, tyvm

[grave plume]

facebook marketplace was always in scam territory

[kindred ledge]

If it did, the HH server would be set ablaze for the week.

Both with people trying to make sense of the new rules, what works and what hilarious combo's they can find and people knee-jerking over shit

[swift gull]

Annoyingly influencers would definitely have them by now none have just had the balls to leak them

[real agate]

I wonder why...🙄

[surreal hornet]

Well, presumably there's NDA or whatever

Not NDA, embargo

[median hawk]

Can't really fault them for not wanting to break an NDA.

Well embargo, yeah.

[surreal hornet]

Yea, thays how they end up in the good graces to get the rules early

And you know, don't get sued

[real agate]

100%. Complaining about "not having balls to leak" is such silly thing.

[kindred ledge]

Imagine expecting people to get into legal trouble over plastic soldiers

😅

[swift gull]

I see sarcasm and lightheartedness doesn’t transfer well over a text medium 🙄🙄

[flat grove]

Poe's Law

[kindred ledge]

Is hard to spot without vocal tonality and facial expressions

[hidden cave]

any new leaks?

[acoustic gale]

SN Battle Reports say they have 10 HH3 battle reports already filmed

And now you know why influencers will always praise GW

[swift gull]

That’s genuinely very exciting

[pale basalt]

imagine already having played 20 games of 3.0

[acoustic gale]

sorry, it was 10

[silent yoke]

you mean a channel and business that is severly impacted by the maker of the game that they create all their content for?

[acoustic gale]

I mean by all means be entertained by people whose livelihood depends on keeping a corporation happy, but if you want to know if a product is good, wait for someone who paid for it out of pocket, even if their content isn't ready to go at 0:00 on launch day

[dire gale]

Not really, Goonhammer are best buds with GW and they will criticize them enough

[lunar rover]

It's not as if SN does not critisise bad mechanics in HH. I mean they quite famously implement a houserule to address arty tanking.

It is possible to professionally create content of a single product and be honest.

[real agate]

Imposible. They must have been ordered by GW to do this, in an attempt to discredit 2.0 and hype 3.0 so they can sell better. Surely.

[silent yoke]

we (the collective we) can always find a conspiracy if we look for one

[frank onyx]

I think people think if content creators aren't completely outwardly hostile to rules they must be shills. Maybe they just don't care as much. I've seen many of them criticise GW outside of a BR but like who wants to watch a BR and two adults just complain the whole time.

They'll get on with it mostly and they'll maybe say they aren't a fan of a certain rule at some point but they are hardly going to be frothing at the mouth about it at all times, it's not entertaining to watch, for example, Inner Circle.

[hidden flame]

Theres a thought process that goes that gw does enough hyping of their own products, so why bother saying anything theyve already said

[frank onyx]

Most people who make battle reports are a big fan of the product

[indigo kiln]

Preposterous

[silent yoke]

One might also just like it and that’s why they are in the hobby and choose to write / make content about it in the first place. That’s why I do it. I don’t need to fake animosity for negative clickbait and don’t want to perpetuate such attitudes. If I hated something, I wouldn’t participate in it.

[frank onyx]

Exactly, you can just enjoy it for what it is, and talk about what you don't like in a positive way and give GW feedback without doing that

[silent yoke]

I also just dont expect perfection from anything GW does. And having that be your baseline is illogical.

[frank onyx]

It's literally impossible for anything to be perfect especially a game

The game will never be balanced, you just gotta roll with it, and try and enjoy yourself

[dire gale]

That's what makes me laugh/rage when people complain about something being unbalanced "why didn't GW just balance it?"

[timid cliff]

But it would be possible to be better balanced then 2ed

[dire gale]

Like as if they just had spent more time the rules would be 100% perfectly balanced and have 0 issues lol

[timid cliff]

Dreadnoughts, deep strikes and many of the legion specific stuff was all over the place

[dire gale]

Same with like every video game lol

[frank onyx]

Chess has one variable to it, white goes first, that's the only "imbalance" it's a simple yet deep game. now compare that to Warhammer. It's just not possible so it's w.e no point getting upset about it, you've no control over it other than how you react to it. If your reaction is to get upset then, that's on you

I think I've sent us off topic here

[dire gale]

Ya as a game designer it just makes me laugh when people just think a game can just "be perfectly balanced" it's basically a goal you always move towards but can never hit

[indigo kiln]

Some folks act like the only possible reasons for a flawed product are apathy or malice

[tired furnace]

people who dedicate their lives to creating content about GW products also like GW products, shocker

[wraith pasture]

I wonder if Goonhammer regrets their branding name choice

I'd be pissed if I chose a cool name and then some idiots on the Internet ruined the word lol

[wraith pasture]

The game will never be balanced that is true.

But the way 2.0 was "balanced" was not even remotely close to the mark. Not unless you played the clearly "more equal than others" factions

[indigo kiln]

The humble henchperson will reclaim their birthright in due time.

[wraith pasture]

It probably wasn't intended but unfortunately the lack of willingness to fix it and going radio silent until 3.0 cut kinda deep for people that were hoping to see an faq or something after significant feedback from the community had shifted in opinions once they got over the whole "good you deserved it" phase, which was actually deranged

[wraith pasture]

You said it boss

[teal basalt]

Frankly 2.0 was so so so deep in the dumps it was probably smarter to start on 3.0 than fixing 2.0

Like we don’t even have the books yet, but we know that command sections have a reason for existence, something they lacked in the very edition they were invented for.

[dire gale]

2.0 was likely almost more of a proof of concept, 3.0 is when stuff might be taken seriously

Plus there is the whole thing where HH is a narrative game and for some reason some people think Balance Updates = Competitive which is just absolutely not true

[wraith pasture]

So long as no army has a sudden inexplicable rewrite in the last few months before the books were printed it should be better

[teal basalt]

It doesn’t, but the issue is working out where you draw the line, where do you stop balancing.

I think in panoptica, we started off very small scale, but changes got bigger and bigger.

[dark lion]

You could probably fix 2nd Ed, but that'd require changing the libers which GW was insanely allergic to

[silent yoke]

a well balanced game is required for a narrative one. a player shouldnt feel like to make the army they want they need to make several terrible options. some things will always be better than others but the gulf of 2.0 was HUGE. Flavor must remain but i much prefer a version of the game is less obvious HAVES and HAVE NOTS

Otherwise there is no point to play and someone wanting a narrative army should just treat it as a narrative project. the exact opposite experience that drives myself and many others to the system

[dire gale]

Exactly, my lists would actually be more narrative and thematic I feel but there are some units that are so good they ruin the game if I were to bring a bunch (Scorpius) and the other options are just total ass (every other barrage tank lol)

[pale basalt]

pretty much every list also had to have a way to handle dreads

which for some armies restricted them a lot

[tired furnace]

completely disagree that balance is required for narratives, just look at things like dungeons and dragons or whatever, narratives emerge from the gameplay despite the incredibly broken balance of the system

[near hull]

D&D isn't something played as a 'head-to-head' game, however. I wouldn't see that as a fair comparison. I can (and do) write houserules/missions to add extra narrative flavour to my wargames, but having a baseline of balance is generally important for people to have a fun time. Narrative will emerge regardless, for sure, but (some) balance is still key

[indigo kiln]

Yeah you can get narrative out of anything but that isn't a reason for the baseline system to not be good

(speaking as someone who thinks D&D is, on average, not very good as a system)

[tired furnace]

thats a completely different argument now

good for me is conductive to interesting emergent narratives. balance isnt that important. Playing with the right people is key and I dont want the game to be changes to accomodate prople with bad groups.

[indigo kiln]

I'm a completely different person

[pale basalt]

HH should be a fun game to play against a random opponent

if this game was designed to only be played against a known and familiar player then it truly is doomed

[near hull]

Both to make it a good/fair experience for a new, incoming player
But also to compensate for the fact that not everyone is blessed with a 'good group', and you can only 'network' yourself to a certain extent

[tired furnace]

fundamentally disagree with prioritizing that design goal

that's what 40k is thriving for

succesfully

at the cost of much flavor and emergence

[crude flare]

It's not that you need to actually know them beforehand, as long as you're both coming to the game with the same attitude

[pale basalt]

but if you built a game around the idea the player must be in the right group then it just becomes pointless to write any rules at all

a good group would just homebrew whatever they think is fun and flavourful

this is a universal set of rules that is supossed to allow players who dont know each other to play a game against each other

sure it is more fun if both are on the same page as each other which goes for every game in the world

[dark lion]

That's apples to oranges my guy. One is a ttrpg with a GM who runs everything and interprets rules, the other is a wargame where the players fight it out. Not very comparable imo

[tired furnace]

virtually every GW rulebook starts with asking people to interpret rules to have fun. its not apples to oranges at all you're nitpicking structural differences about how the game is played but fundamentally gw wargames generally lend themselves to people telling a story and finding out what happens using some rules

[tired furnace]

huh homebrewing an entire ruleset is a huge amount of effort and time i dont think this argument is reasonable at all

the books do encourage making up rules for fun

[teal basalt]

i mean yeah, youd have to change a lot of the profiles and points, and weapons, and some special rules. at that point just rewrite the libers, and if your rewriting the libers, might as well rewrite the core rules which have some big flaws. and at that point, make a new system

[dark lion]

Finally, Horus Heresy but based on 4th edition 40k🙏

[teal basalt]

might not be all its cracked up to be

[dark lion]

Fine, 5th edition I guess

[bright cave]

I’d be down 🤣

Especially since 5th only had 1 page of USRs lol

[dark lion]

I just prefer the older codexes is all

[dark lion]

Simplified melee weapons my beloved

Hull points didn't exist😍

[bright cave]

Yesssss. Where all power weapons were the same

[acoustic gale]

on that we agree, it's always weird how competitive players assume narrative players shouldn't care for balance

[dire gale]

Ive always seen it the other way tbh

Where its anti competitive players saying about how they dont want HH balance updates

[kindred needle]

the only balanced game is every game and or homebrew I write. everything else? awful

[silent yoke]

You completely disagree by comparing what a local community may do versus the core rulebook and product offering targeted for a global one.

DnD comparison is also not relevant because most people aren’t playing narrative rpg’s with their warhammer models.

[tired furnace]

What I want to play with my warhammer models is a narratively rich game where the gameplay feeds into that narrative.

I want the system to feed that purpose about all else.

This means that when balance gets in the way of flavor or narrative richness, it must be partially discarded

This opens up the opportunity for the system to be "abused"

I'm ok with this because I am capable of selecting who I play with.

I don't want the system to be adjusted for people who are incapable of that.

[silent yoke]

Not sure why you needed to add those spaces 🫡

[tired furnace]

to delineate clearly the different components of my position

[silent yoke]

but youre taking balance as being competitive. its not. which is what my original comment was about is having a fair system where you are not punished for taking the units you want to take

we can agree to disagree its okay

because we clearly do

[tired furnace]

ok. i explained myself. balance is not necessary for narrative

[silent yoke]

in your opinion, sure

[tired furnace]

pretty sure im objectively correct

[silent yoke]

we can agree to disagree on that too

[dire gale]

Not necessary, but doesn't detract from it, in the end its a game and in a game you want it to be fair for both players if something like dreads is getting so commonly house ruled to be more fair gets incorporated into the game base line that makes it better for everyone

House rules are fine but its nice when you dont NEED to, ive said before that imbalance has detracted from narrative before, like me wanting to build an artillery IW list but Scorpius tanks are so strong and all the others are so weak its not fun either way Id be happy if it was nerfed because now I can make my fun flavorful list without absolutely steamrolling my friends

Im sure every IH player who really likes dreadnoughts feels the same way

[stoic orbit]

Balance should be strived for whenever possible, but when it conflicts with narrative choices, narrative choices should always take precedence, in HH at least.

People seem to get in the mindset that balancing the game equals nu40k and thus balance is inherently antagonistic to narrative design choices which is understandable but not really true.

[zealous wharf]

People also talk about "balance" as if it's a singular dimension that ranges from "not balanced" to "balanced", and then wonder why the designers don't just move their game further towards the "balanced" end. But there are a ton of different factors that all get lumped under the heading of balance, and some of them are in direct opposition to one another.

[acoustic gale]

"I want"
"I need"
"I'm objectively correct"
🤔

[nocturne oasis]

Balance in narrative games is only relevent whenever one player feels like they dont have a fair chance to win when they set up on the table

Lot of people seem to forget that

[surreal hornet]

Yes and no. Yes, a game is ideally well balanced. But no, the nature of the game as a game means that there will inherently be correct and incorrect decisions in terms of play or list building. The point of narrative play, the thing that separates it from normal/competitive play, is to disregard those choices in favor of what works narratively

If someone doesent want to make a narrative list because it requires them to make suboptimal choices mechanically, they don't want to play narratively at all (which is fine) because those suboptimal choices for the sake of narrative are the point. The point is to take a power sword on your captain rather than a thunder hammer because that's his heirloom from his former Sgt, the point is to send your praetor into an unwise fight because that's what his pride or honor demand

[nocturne oasis]

Your examples here are all very low stakes vs the actual issues with 2.0. Sword vs hammer probbly wont affect the game. But if you have units like dreadnoughts that are so powerful the force you as a SA player to either lean into vanquishers over any other units or just have a bad time in game, thats bad balance.

[surreal hornet]

Sword vs hammer very much does affect how a unit will perform and thus the game? Its an insane difference in how dangerous a given character is

I'm also not sure where you got the idea I'm saying that the balance is inherently good, that's the exact opposite of what I'm saying?

Narrative lists, by their nature, are more likely to have "things they can't deal with very well", whether because they don't build their list in the "appropriate" way or because they don't play the proper way to counter them (if a unit is best dealt with by not engaging and winning on objectives, a narrative world eaters list probably won't do that)

[dark lion]

So is solar auxilia auto losing against marines just because they didnt spam vanquisher cannons and laser destroyers, more narrative?

[surreal hornet]

What the fuck are you talking about? Genuinely? Also what world do you exist in where "marines" require nothing short of vanquisher cannons and laser destroyers to kill

If you want to have a cry about how fury of the ancients is OP or unfun then by all means, but what relevance at all does this have to "narrative play shouldn't require armies to make bad decisions/be competitively viable" or the refutation thereof

But also: yes, there will be times where if you make and play narrative oriented lists you will just lose in the matchup because you lack the tools to properly answer the enemy. Someone running a deapoiler horde of berserkers is going to get blendered by say, custodes, someone without much anti tank in their recon company is going to twiddle their thumbs while a tank kills them.

An inherent, necessary, conceit of narrative lists is that the choices you make are defined by the narrative you are seeking to play with rather than optimal game viability, and this has obvious gameplay consequences

It might mean your heaviest AT is missile launchers or that you have no good AP2 or whatever else, that's how cookie crumbles

[real agate]

Still doesnt have as much impact as dreadnoughts. You taking 3 more hammers doesnt mean your opponent should reconsider their list. Taking 2 more dreadnoughts does

[nocturne oasis]

Marines are effectively killed by bolters in pretty much every piece of fluff

[surreal hornet]

2 dreads do not have the sort of impact where they force the entire game to revolve around them or require the opponent to change their list, but much like whether they have more or less impact than suboptimal load outs this isn't at all relevant to anything I have said

[surreal hornet]

In game too

[nocturne oasis]

Youre also missing the point, theres a massive difference between a skew list losing and a few units skewing the rest of the game

[real agate]

The point is ironing out big points of unbalance (dreadnoughts, weak tanks etc) would only benefit narrative play

[surreal hornet]

That point is irrelevant to anything I have said

Not least because this started with the obvious mention that "Yes, better balance is always good"

[teal basalt]

Y’all realise it’s entirely group dependent right? Based on the average power of the lists your group likes to take?

[wanton kiln]

Local meta is a thing

[teal basalt]

Remember it’s a see saw. If you increase the points on a contemptor, terminators become a greater problem etc.

[nocturne oasis]

Dreadnoughts are a good example of how certain balance issues are not just subjective. Dreads are iconic of the setting, excellent models, and absolutely overpowered in game. Theyre a unit that everyone wants before looking at the rules and you actually have to restrain people from taking them

[nocturne oasis]

No, dreadnoughts by their very design are an issue, brutal 3, wsbs5t7 2+5++ and eternal warrior is a hard thing to point into balance because theyd be hundred of points

[surreal hornet]

The issue with dreads is that nothing is designed to kill them well, this issue has been addressed in the new edition

[teal basalt]

Dreadnoughts are popular don’t get me wrong, but a groups average power level can go from anywhere from side eyeing one contemptor to full on spam that a group may decide needs to be capped.

That profile still affects game balance for HH2. People have had their complaints about terminators, if you make a profile that is excellent at killing them worse, you make terminators even better.

[pale basalt]

i dont really agree with that

dreads are just extremely efficient in pretty much every role

while termies can only fill a few (and they fill those poorly compared to dreads)

[nocturne oasis]

Terminators in 2.0, also not really that good outside of a few exceptions

[pale basalt]

i will say termies are good

but not good to the same extent dreadsnoughts are

[nocturne oasis]

A unit that is basically conventionally unkillable is a balance issues yes.

[teal basalt]

You’re completely missing my point.

If you go and slap a massive points bump on contemptors, the meta won’t be “solved” it will shift, and a new problem will arise.

[teal basalt]

Obviously not? But if you reduce the effective tools to kill them, you make them better

[real agate]

Meta will shift, but i havent heard about people having to limit amount of termies you can take. Which means there are easier to deal with than for example contemptors

[pale basalt]

but then you are still powereing those lists down which is good

if someone wants to spam 2+ armour saves i would rather have that they spam the worse unit

[nocturne oasis]

Addressing issues is still a good thing? Terminators dont became dreadnought level of strong they stay the same. A seesaw is not the right analogy. There are plenty of easily accessable tools to kill terminators

I also wouldnt consider dreads to be one of the tools keeping terminators in check

[real agate]

Ok, I feel like we are drifting away from 3.0 rulebook leaks.😀

[pale basalt]

i can as a solar player say that it is 100% not dreads keeping termies in check in my games

[teal basalt]

I’m going to have a brain haemorrhage.

You know what you guys are right. Balance changes never ever ever have a wider effect on the game, they solely completely just affect the unit you nerf

Make every AT weapon 80 points, tanks don’t get better! Reduce every vehichles cost into the floor to make up for one overpowered AT unit, nah that won’t have any repercussions either

[surreal hornet]

I suspect this talk of terminators is going to prove a bit prescient given the new edition

Where dreads ARE nerfed, and were going to find out if the ecosystem needed them or not

[teal basalt]

They were not needed. But thei massive wreaking will be good for some units, bad for others but it’s an impossible guess as to what’s what.

[timid cliff]

And GW can still fuck up every other unit 😄

[dark lion]

What's your favorite rules leak? I'm really excited for vehicles personally

[teal basalt]

melta has been buffed, but because dreadnoughts have been nerfed, melta has indirectly been nerfed as the value of its target has dropped. Unless dreadnoughts are dirt cheap, in which case melta is buffed again. But dreadnoughts being cheap would be a buff to the centurion since they help you bring more, but that’s a buff to reco…..

[nocturne oasis]

3.0 is just a completely different game, we cant really bring our views on the game meta into the new edition

Im actually trying not to form opinions on units until ive seen the full libers

Because, i already have some capital O opinions on the new edition as is

[real agate]

Oh definitely. The fact that there are no squadrons, so i can bring multiple different tanks with various weapons (without having to keep them all togather and shoot the same target) is great!

[surreal hornet]

Melta is now good vs everything, it will decimate automata, big demons, elite infantry

[real agate]

I also really like the volley rule. Seems very cinematic

[surreal hornet]

Ironically vehicles, the tough ones, might be its worst tatgets

[teal basalt]

Maybe, but maybe its points are too high, or maybe those units are so bad most people don’t run them, or maybe there’s a better option.

[surreal hornet]

But melta is probably going to end up as a panacea for any scary units. Custodes, brutes, cenobium, castellax, its all getting slagged

[dark lion]

It is nice to have a reason to give melee units ranged weapons now. Was so used to ranged upgrades on like termies and assault marines being bad because they just made your charge more difficult. Forcing shooting attacks seems like a fun way to change that

[nocturne oasis]

I like the idea, but i think in practice it might be very bloated. Im hoping theres ways to buff it or certain weapons that are much better at it, but a bunch of snapshot pistols isnt very exciting and just takes up time for every charge

[surreal hornet]

If there is a better option than damage 3/6 ap1 for killing custodes then frankly that's going to be a farce

[teal basalt]

Who knows. 12” range is a bummer, and the price might be steep. Lascannon may still be king

[nocturne oasis]

Im hoping custodes will be a more playable army, I love the models and id really like to play them

[real agate]

When i play I usually have booked the whole evening for it, so i dont mind thing taking time tbh

[surreal hornet]

I suspect not

[nocturne oasis]

Ah, im more of an event player myself so Im always thinking in terms of time

[surreal hornet]

The new damage system will hit them HARD

[real agate]

Thats valid

[surreal hornet]

Even if they gain a wound as rumored, there's just going to be a lot more stuff that will one tap them running around

[real agate]

I think new challange system will be more of a timeeater

[surreal hornet]

Demons are also going to get shafted by it, and automata

Everything that, like dreads, relied on not having good counters is going to have a bad time imo

[nocturne oasis]

100% if you have to play multiple challenges a turn its going to be a nightmare

[real agate]

But I was never a fan of challanges anyway. They did make them more cinematic too tho, so thats nice

[nocturne oasis]

Primarch challenges were cool, anything else was kind of a feelsbad moment. Usually a challenge meant your one cc weapon either got murdered or couldnt fight

[real agate]

Very true.
Apart from LoS and killing models outside LoS (and not confirmed but feared "only options included in the box" for resin legion units) i really like what I am seeing.

[nocturne oasis]

I feel theres a bit of gentlemans agreement going around not to challenge, some.of the events ive been at people have mentioned they dont feel like challenges would be fun when we move to combay

[real agate]

I would love if Perty's gambit was available to everyone instead 😂

[nocturne oasis]

I think the new ed is solid as gameplay, i think charges are a bit rough, my instinct is to not try. My main dislike is armybuilding, i despise the new system

Its janky, feels more restrictive, has no narrative element, and meant the death of ritesnofnwar

[pale basalt]

the first couple of times it will take some time

but once people start remembering the gambits i think it will be very quick

[nocturne oasis]

I feel like it pushes every legion into their specific one niche, rather than rites that let you wrk to different aspecta of the legion

[last bone]

I have a hot take, killing off majority of RoW isn't going to be a problem

[pale basalt]

for me as a solar aux player the new army building system sounds 1000% better in pretty much every way

a lot more flavour and meaning to our unit choices

[last bone]

Majority of generic ones and bulk of the legion ones are literally just "X becomes a troop, Y gains line"

[pale basalt]

the mech army building also sounds cool as fuck

[real agate]

Yeah, you can still build the same armies (and give yourself same restrictions while doing it)

[last bone]

Agreed

[last bone]

Like nobody is saying my drop pod Assault has to have guys on the board initially

I can still just drop pod everyone

[pale basalt]

i am excited too see if and how the different legions twist their own army building

[last bone]

Agreed, each legion is getting a special auxiliary and some are getting apex detachments

[pale basalt]

the army building is honestly in the top 3 changes for me

but that is because it is moving away from the marine centric crusade detachment

the crusade detachment was designed for marines. every other army just had to try and make do with that

that sucked for a lot of my armies (like daemons and militia

[last bone]

Half the armies in the game literally had things designed to go around the chart

[nocturne oasis]

I think without th synergies and narrative elements of them people wont do that

[last bone]

Realistically, if someone owns the stuff do to a RoW that used to exist, they will still do it

[pale basalt]

i know daemons didnt. militia had very limited ways of doing it which was not even close to enough. solar could do pretty much whatever they wanted because tercios rock

[nocturne oasis]

I think thats relying too much on old rules to drive new ones

[real agate]

I like the changes, but i mostly play for story, people, and to see nice models on the table, so even if I didnt like them too much I would still play (whichever edition most of my friends would play).
There are only 3 things that would make me not playing the new edition:
-dropping ws chart (cant stand hiting on flat number)
-vehicles loosing distinct rules
-forcing to take fixed number of models

[nocturne oasis]

I think more lists will tend towards generic goodstuff lists now

[last bone]

Mech had ways, knights hard ways, solar and milita had ways

[pale basalt]

i doubt lists will change much other than maybe including more characters

[last bone]

Tbh that's what 2.0 was too

[pale basalt]

the game changes

the people who played it do not really

[last bone]

I totally agree that the FoC didn't fit majority of armies

[pale basalt]

militia had bad ways that mostly ruined the rest of the army

important distinction

[last bone]

I heard someone say 12 krios

[nocturne oasis]

Militia in 2.0 was cool but really an insane pdf, they really put a lot of effort into telling you your guys suck so bad

[pale basalt]

the problem with that is that you dedicate your provenances to do that

you sacrifice every buff or good thing the army can do so you can bring units that are objectively worse than what other armies already get without any cost

[nocturne oasis]

Militia are probably my favorite army for all the wild shit they can do, so ill be so dissapointed if they lose any of it

[pale basalt]

lose stuff and gain stuff that is the life of militia

dont cry about what we have lost. celebrate what we will gain

[last bone]

They have confirmed that no units are going to vanish this edition so at least nothing will be illegal

[nocturne oasis]

Give me line grens in land raiders with needlers and ill be happy

[pale basalt]

its more the wargear that scares most militia players

will we still have a specific provenance that gives access to X wargear?

who knows

[last bone]

Ah yeah fair, I was looking into blackshields and I decided to hold off for a bit until I see what happens with them

[pale basalt]

i would also hold off on that if you want to go for any of the weirder options

[last bone]

My original idea was guys who spent so long fighting the orks they use primarily ork equipment and cloning to keep up numbers

[nocturne oasis]

Considering how the systems seem to work now all the provenance unlocks probably wont make the transistion. Potentially they just become default options on the units

[last bone]

I think provinces will survive because they'd function very similar to legion RoW and mech high arcana

[nocturne oasis]

In name definately but we havent seen any of those kind of rules that give options

[pale basalt]

i think having provenances for each detachment would be weird flavour

unless they change them all

[last bone]

Assumadely legion wargear is also part of the RoW

[nocturne oasis]

Dont know, they werent mentioned in the articles

[last bone]

Considering they sell legion special wargear, I'm assuming it'll stick

[nocturne oasis]

They might be prime unit upgrades? They havent mentioned wargear at all, so ive no idea how itll be implimented.

[last bone]

My assumption is that no news is good news

[nocturne oasis]

Im trying to think of weapons that dont translate to a generic version, inferno pistols and grav pistols? Is there much else?

Assault cannons ofc too

[last bone]

Graviton shredders, bane strike (mechanically), warsmith, Assault cannons

[nocturne oasis]

Warsmith is likely a prime upgrade like the fists castellan

[silent yoke]

I know what a narrative list is. I shouldn’t automatically lose the game if I choose to make one because of the massive disparity between certain options and units in 2.0. I’m not saying everything should be the same.

Did you read the second half of my message? I was clear in this that the gulf between good and bad choices shouldn’t be so far apart. This is still a game and people are there to play the game.

[tranquil epoch]

Also ngl
If I'm playing for the narrative, I dont want the narrative to be "my dudes get curbstomped every time" even if I'm making non-optimal choices for the sake of said narrative

like thats just a dull story

equally, I wouldnt want the narrative to be "my dudes curbstomp everyone they face" because that would also be dull

[surreal hornet]

If you make a narrative list you should be at a disadvantage vs a competitive list, that is what you sign up for when you make a narrative list

[last bone]

I think he means that his list shouldn't be unplayable dog shit just because he chose some narrative choices

Like if I play a narrative list I should still be able to play with a chance to reasonably win against the average list

[pale basalt]

a list being narrative does not mean it is weak

Fury of the ancients could be a narrative list

that does not mean it us fun or weak

[last bone]

Also true but in a broader sense narrative lists tend to not be as strong

But then again, a narrative IF list is broken as hell

[surreal hornet]

That entirely depends on the specifics of the choices you make

If you, for the sake of narrative, forgo anti tank weapons you are going to get ran over by tanks and dreads, simple as

[last bone]

Ah yeah that's obvious but stuff like say the dark angels RoW struggle when played narratively due to lack of line and giving generally questionable buffs

[silent yoke]

its not either or. we are speaking completely different definitions at this point. exactly why "narrative" is such a crapshoot and the game inherently should just be better balanced across units, points, and flavor

if you want heresy to be a narrative game then there needs to be better game balance so that people will play the game that you are hoping they will.

[surreal hornet]

It almost by definition is. A narrative list makes choices based on the narrative, what makes sense and tells the story. A competitive list makes choices based on mechanical optimization. Those are not the same thing. The list that is competitive will therefore always be better.

[silent yoke]

a balanced game does not mean its a competitive one. in fact an imbalanced game is more likely to have players lean into their competitive tendencies and forgo narrative because of their innate desire to not lose every game

[pale basalt]

that just isnt true

a narrative fury of the ancients would kick the shit out of my hardcore optimized militia list

[surreal hornet]

Fury of the ancients is not a narrative list

[silent yoke]

idk i see flavor text next to its description 🤷‍♂️

[pale basalt]

it is a thing that existed in the lore

why could it not be a narrative list?

[surreal hornet]

We aren't discussing the game, we are discussing lists.

A game can be balanced and still have "correct" and "incorrect" choices, indeed it needs to to be a game of any sort. A competitive list is made by trying to make correct choices, a narrative list doesent concern itself with that and will therefore make incorrect choices as the narrative demands.

[pale basalt]

but how many bad choices do you have to make in a list before it becomes a narrative list?

[silent yoke]

meaning that a good narrative game should feel like it correctly captures the lore in giving a player a viable game experience on the table (aka balance). or should people just show up expecting to lose all the time?

This is silly

[pale basalt]

if i make a militia list composed of the worst units known to man that does not make me a good narrative player

[silent yoke]

i said "game" from the start. you are moving goal posts to talk about lists now.

[pale basalt]

i cant just go around calling everyone beating that list a competetive tryhard

[surreal hornet]

People should not show up and expect their larp army to defeat a competitive army. If I make a fluffy bunny list and show up vs someone's tournament topper, I'm going to get smashed

[silent yoke]

All of your examples are situations of extremes which is not what we are talking about at all

[pale basalt]

but the idea that every single players has a perfect idea of the difference is just wrong

[surreal hornet]

If you want to play narrative lists on an equal playing field you should go play other narrative lists

[silent yoke]

two "narrative" lists can be complete ends of the viability spectrum purely because 2.0 is so unbalanced. youre not getting the fundamental argument here.

[pale basalt]

if both players say the want to bring narrative lists beforehand but dont organise the exact contents of the list the the powerlevel will still vary wildy

it isnt a binary choice

it is a spectrum

[silent yoke]

You (Drat) are mixing "competitiveness" with a better and more thoughtfully balanced game to improve narrative experiences.

Never once did i say competitive.

I want flavor and the setting designed into the game in a way that does not hurt either players ability to actually play or enjoy the game. Of course some choices will be better than others. Nothing will be perfectly balanced. I even said that in my original comment which again i am not convinced you read past the first sentence.

The point being is that there needs to be a more thoughtful assignment of strength, points, and flavor in the game to actually encourage the community to play the game with the narrative in mind.

[surreal hornet]

My point thay you continue to miss is that while the overall balance of the game is obviously always a net positive, narrative oriented play is inherently unbalanced/separate from the balance of the game proper because the armies created do not concern themselves with proper/optimal play or decision making

A player will have to make "wrong choices" as the narrative requires because it is fundamentally not competitive play.

The idea that narrative play is impossible unless every random decision is equally powerful lest someone feel bad their choices are detrimental is silly, yes, obviously the power sword is worse than the thunder hammer, that's actively what you sign up for when you decide to do narrative play