Iron Hands 3.5k vs. WB (loss)

[meager glacier]

<@&877302968955850772>

Summon the brothers

[fresh sapphire]

I admire the gorgon use

but they suuuck

[meager glacier]

What missions do you tend to play? terrible core rulebook or goonhammer/siege of cthonia missions?

[fresh sapphire]

there's not much here to deal with heavy armour except for the moritat and leviathan tbh

your legions strength is at range, so why spend all those points on a getting a lackluster terminator unit into combat

you could give the land raider to your better combat squad (the hq) and drop the gorgons for a tank

[meager glacier]

First impressions:
You have way too many upgrades on your stuff. Tone down on those and you'll have a couple hundred extra points to play with.

Your lack of mobility will be hurting you. You want to invest in some transports. I understand from the main chat that you wanna run some vindis too (good choice) but this will be hard playing PotL

[fresh sapphire]

you could drop the seekers while you're at it too

[stray trellis]

All your HQs having Cybers is excessive.

Your Gravitat is with 5 no invul models, kinda redundant.

I'd just do the Praetor tbh.

[meager glacier]

@agile moss what parts of your list are you married to? What's the stuff you wanna keep and what's expendable?

[fresh sapphire]

assault marines, or 10 destroyers would be the optimal choice

also, at 3.5k it may be worth bringing in big daddy, if you want to

[stray trellis]

Agreed.

[meager glacier]

Big daddy is ded. We ain't on Isstvan no more

[fresh sapphire]

big daddy is alive so long as he has that hammer in my books

[meager glacier]

Oof he died before Isstvan then

[agile moss]

OMW to Gym, I'll answer all the questions when I get home. Really wanna keep the iron father, morocks, catas, spartan, dreadnoughts

so far we've played (gentlemen's agreement) no primarchs.

[agile moss]

definitely

[agile moss]

Core Rulebook, Dominion, i think (mission 4) with deployment map pointy arrows at each other (map 1)

[meager glacier]

Copy mate. Lift some tin and we'll do some theory crafting

[meager glacier]

I had a play and I think drop the seekers, gorgons, destroyers, and one tac squad to get a big cata squad in a spartan, a big plasma squad in a rhino, a LR for the morlocks and some nullificators. The nullificators are fruity but 5 disintegrators should give the vorbak pause. Their maces are actually sweet vs vorbak in melee too

You need a deliver system for the nullificators which is where things get ropey

I figured something like:

Cata iron father

• hammer
  Morlocks body guard
• 5 morlocks
• 4 power fists, 1 chain fist (augmentor)
• 3x volkite chargers, legion standard, volkite culverin
• cyber familiar (augmentor)
  Land raider DT

Cata chaplain

• cyber familiar
• hammer

Gravitat with jump pack

9 cataphractii with mix of fists/volkite & double claws

• spartan DT with flare and searchlights
  (Chappy goes here)

5 sniper scouts

10 tacs

• artificer armour
• vexilla & nuncio vox

5 nullificators with disintegrators

• dreadclaw drop pod DT (this is a pretty average deliver system, if you dropped something else I'd recommend another raider)

9 plasma tss

• rhino DT

2x leviathan

• volkite, melta lance, claw, phosphex

Idea is you keep all your fav stuff, streamline the list and add some tech that noone can ever criticise as being meta.

If you're playing core rulebook missions scoring is rarely relevant so you don't need to go nuts on line units. Tac squads literally become a tax

Gravitat can jump in the spartan during deployment to give it scout which is pretty good for that unit cos they wanna hit melee asap. He can then jump out t1 and fly around doing gravitat things by himself (he should priorities the mhara gal) but can also line up a double charge against vorbak with your morlocks or cata for sweet rad nade action.

Your Levis are slow so you need to be hyper aggressive with them and push mid field as quick as poss. If your opponent charges them with one of your priority targets, pop a Gorgons Spite to shred some wounds before melee. Otherwise they should be doing the charging - the extra move distance you get from charging is invaluable.

Filling out your cata to be a big blobs maximises the use from the Chappie. These guys will hit hard first round of combat, aim for the vorbak or zardu layak unit.

Lascannons on your tanks should priorities stripping wounds off the mhara gal before it hits. You're light on anti tank, something to be aware of

[lavish pike]

Friendly reminder Leviathans cannot run due to being Heavy

I'm sure you were already aware but it's a common error

Charging up midboard is great but you might as well shoot every turn since Running isn't an option.

I just wanted to give a reminder after Medusan's suggestion to be "hyper aggressive". With Contemptors this often means a dead sprint, but with Leviathans it just means "move forward and break shit on the way'

[lavish pike]

Is this list legal? You need two Compulsory Troops

(Edit: If it's Pride then this is fine because Catas in the other comp slot)

Scouts are support squad

[agile moss]

-seekers, gorgons and one tac squad, check. gone. I've been looking for a reason to ditch these and I think the collective wisdom of you guys is the final push I needed to hear.
-problem is do what you suggest, I need to get: another cata squad, build a 10 man plasma squad, build a land raider, and another (5 man?) terminator squad for nullifactors. That's a lot to do...
i'm not sure I mentioned this but I also have a 10 man lascannon squad that has done work for me. I'm trying to phase it out as it's 40k/devastators.

[lavish pike]

Nullificators are pretty underwhelming in my experience, they're really expensive for not much more output or defense

I'm just saying, an extra 14ppm for resistance to psykers isn't a big upgrade over regular Catas

[agile moss]

fwiw, i'm not sold on a pride of the legion row. I just took it because i have 20 terminators and my units dont really fit well into any other rite of war.

[lavish pike]

Fair enough. What models do you have available to work with? I'd like to try and build around what you already have, if possible

[meager glacier]

OP has run PotL so that's what I went with

[meager glacier]

My personal opinion is that 10 man las teams are a crutch and un fun.

Beyond this, you'll need to rejig your list significantly to make em fit cos PotL only has 1 HS slot

[meager glacier]

Nullificators aren't great but I think this is a good match up for them

Vorbak hate disintegrators

[lavish pike]

I disagree tbh, their only upsides are Hex Wards and some melee deflagrate for 70 extra points. You could just fit two more terminators for that cost

If you're adding disintegrators, that's another whole termie squad

Just sayin, 5 Nulls with disintegrators is 5pts less 20pts more than 10 catas with default weapons

Goofed my math because I just doubled the 175 of a bare squad

[meager glacier]

I ignore hexwards entirely I don't even know what they do lol

[agile moss]

HQs:
-Moirtiat jump pack with dual grav
-Iron Father (HH model)
-Cata (praetor or cenutrion..the stock guy with chainfist and combi)
-Chaplain (power armor guy...stock dude with plasma and crozius)
-homebrew Master of Signals

ELITES:
-5 man Cata that i use as Morlocks volkite/power fists/standard HH
-5 man Catas w/ lt claws and volkite chargers HH
-10 indomitus (40k) terminators, magnetized powerfists/chainfists and stormbolters, 3 assault cannons or heavy flamers
-5 assault destroyers, 3 with dual volkite 2 with dual bolt pistols, (5 more on the way) HH
-1 techmarine
-1 apothecary

TROOPS & DTS:
-13 man tac squad with nuncio vox, vexilla, bayonets, and magnetized sgt arms
-13 man tac squad with nuncio vox, vexilla and magnetized sgt arms
-10 scouts on foot with bolters (40k)
-5 scouts on foot with sniper rifles (40k)
-2 rhinos
-1 drop pod

FAST ATTACK
-10 seekers (40k sternguard kit), alternatively I could use these guys as Veterans but I'd have to do some arm mag for weapons.

HEAVY SUPPORT:
-10 lascannons (40k devastator kit)
-5 heavy bolters (40k devastaor kit)
-Spartan Land Raider HH
-2 Leviathan Dreads HH
-1 Deredo Dread with anvilus autocannon battery HH
-1 Sicaran with autocannons HH

OTHER 40k STUFF I'D PREFER NOT TO USE:
-3 predators (2 with autocannons and heavy bolters, 1 with full las)
-land raider crusader
-land raider redeemer
-whirlwind
-hunter/stalker anti-air tank
-castaferrum dread
-ironclad dread
-venerable dread

I think that's everything

[lavish pike]

Psychic attacks have -1 to wound them

[meager glacier]

10 catas will do much worse vs vorbak than 5 nullificators with dissies. But we'll just have to disagree here

[lavish pike]

Alright, let me pause here and go look at the WB units of concern. It's fair to point out that I'm not familiar with vorbak.

S5 T5 W3 Sv3+, really mean in melee. Sure, regular catas don't want to fight them, but I also don't want Rock here to go building a whole ass overpriced Elites unit with a moderately high chance to kill itself just to handle Gal Vorbak

The more I look over the available units, the more I will admit that there isn't really a great answer here to the Gal Vorbak's statline. That said, I still strongly advise against Nullificators in particular. They are a niche and highly costed unit that I don't believe will be a good investment in the long term. It would be better to handle them with dreadnoughts or from a distance.

Unfortunately, I am unable to continue providing any assistance as I'm being voluntold to help out with another issue, and I have no idea if I'll even be back tonight

I'm literally mid-listbuilding and can't finish it lmao

@meager glacier, I have to tag out, please don't tell Rock to buy and build niche units while I'm gone

(I will admit I harbor some specific hatred toward Nullificators because they just do so much less for their cost 90% of the time. I tried using them for a while)

[meager glacier]

Impossible. I refuse

[meager glacier]

Yeah this makes things difficult tbh. You could pivot out of PotL but you'll be very light on scoring even for core missions.

In your list you had a 5 man plasma tss as well?

[meager glacier]

I too tried to make em work generally but failed. What they were really good at was dealing with big bully units like ogryns, myrms and vorbak, and our OP has specifically asked for help dealing with vorbak and mhara gal so I think they're worth a mention

Nothing more satisfying than punching t5 3-4w chonks off their feet with each wound. Puts the fear of god into the opposing player too

[agile moss]

Yes but it was a last minute cob job that included 2 40k tacs carrying plasma guns, 2 sgt with combi plasma, and the aforementioned chaplain with plasma pistol and crozius. If I was going to be building an actual plasma TSS, I'd do a fresh kit

@meager glacier and @lavish pike you guys are amazing and have already done so much to help me. I don't think nullificators are the way I wanna go. The morlocks can...at least prove to be a speedbump to the Gal Vorbak given they will make the GV hit on 4's and they themselves will hit on 4's. (instead of 3's/5's as is the case with other terminators). I haven't found a single melee unit that reliable deals with Gal Vorbak though. The combination of their # attacks, hitting on 3's, going first, wounding on 3's, punching through standard marine power armor, and having murderous strike to deal with terminators that are ws4....there's just nothing in our melee arsenal. I think Medusan Immortals can attrition them down (does stubborn work for close combat results?)

[meager glacier]

I think you want the 10 indoms with a chaplain in the spartan. 2 Levis with melta, claw, volkite, phosphex. Maybe make one tac squad a 10 man and another 15, give the small one a rhino, the big one an apothecary

You need a ride for the morlocks. If you invest anything else, get them a raider.

[meager glacier]

You don't wanna fight the vorbak you need to kill them with shooting. Best way is something that insta kills them so either ID from a dissie or s12 plate from a vindi or something. Nullificators bring the dissies which would fit in your PotL but if you can move on from PotL we can look at other options

[agile moss]

what do you guys think of Immortals or Breachers?

[meager glacier]

Immortals are 🔥 in CoBI RoW, otherwise no

[agile moss]

I'm thinking of going into this, but would be a long term project. How many do I need to make it work right?

[meager glacier]

I reckon 20

One big blob or two 10s in raiders

I had a play with your collection and came up with something that requires minimal further minis

Cata IF
Morlocks
Land raider - searchlight

Chaplain

• power maul

Jump pack gravitat

Apothecary (15 tacs)

Techmarine - cognis signum
(Hss 🤢)

15 tacs

10 tacs

• rhino

10 plasma tss

• rhino

5 sniper scouts

10 indoms (Chappie goes here)

Spartan - flare, search lights
(Indoms go here)

10 hss

• las
• augury scanner
• artificer armour
• please lord forgive me for what I have done

2x levi

• melta, claw, phosphex, volkite

Just need plasma team and a raider

You lose the moral high ground for bringing las hss tho

[agile moss]

I can work with this, actually. And IMHO, he already lost the moral high ground brining multiple Gal Vorbak and multiple Mhara Gals (in the past, not this last game).

So a 10 man plasma crew and a LRP...

https://tenor.com/view/vuốt-râu-lườm-gậtđầu-nghiêm-túc-beard-stroke-gif-15894559

[meager glacier]

Get it homie. Fuck him up

[lavish pike]

I'm back.

I run breachers all the time, hammer on the sergeant and two grav shredders. Since breachers have natural grav gun access, they're one of the few units capable of carrying grav shredders without using the HotG flamer-grav swap. That said, they are a very short range unit that can't run, so they need a ride. Either run them in drills, or run them in land raiders. Do not footslog these guys unless you're running a block of 20, home-point camping, or have some other really good reason. Grav shredders are aptly named and will shred dreadnoughts.

Funniest shit I've ever seen them do was Gorgon's Spite a hostile Leviathan. As a block of 20, carrying four grav shredders, they instantly dropped the bastard from full health to zero. Lost two marines, but it was worth it.

As for Immortals... they see the tabletop, sure, but usually just so I can run more Breachers. COBI is unfun to fight and Immortals are unfun to use outside of COBI, so my Immortals rarely see play as Immortals. As a result, I don't really have a ton of experience using them.

[agile moss]

unfun to fight...for opponent you mean?

[lavish pike]

Yes, COBI is unfun for the opponent and Immortals are unfun for you without COBI

To clarify what I mean by unfun, it kind of falls into the same category as Fury of the Ancients or some armies' Pride of the Legion. Our troops are so powerful and difficult to handle that we're damn near impossible for other enemies to contest on scoring. You don't really kill Immortals, so much as chip away a chunk at a time. Once they're on an objective under Company of Bitter Iron, Immortals are rocking a 3+/5++/4+++ with two attacks each, usually blasting away with volkite and grav shredders the whole time.

And they're Iron Hands, so you need at least S9 to ID them and deny their FNPs

And you can bring a hundred or more in COBI

And they score

They're just so fucking rude that COBI is frowned upon lol

But without COBI they feel like Gorgons that hit less hard so I rarely use them

[agile moss]

So...it's intersting because this is exactly how I feel when I play this individual's WB.
He approaches HH like he does 40k...which I think is a mistake.
He takes minimum tacticals, and everything else is units and guns which rip through Space Marines: Plasma Sicaran, Spartan, 3 dreads (including Mhara Gal), warpfire, usually 2 units of Gal Vorbak.

[lavish pike]

Ohhh

Your opponent is one of those players, gotcha

[agile moss]

But Immortals still get merc'd, I think by Gal Vorbak. GV get murderous strike and don't care about Immortals FnP. So basically they are relying on that 5++ to keep them alive, and I don't think they do much damage back to GV hitting on 5's and wounding on 5's.

[lavish pike]

Alright, then he should be aware that you have similar tools available. Mass Dreadnoughts, Company of Bitter Iron, even our Pride of the Legion lists can be horrifying to handle. (Don't run Pride against him though, his melee is better than ours)

[agile moss]

I won't do mass dreadnoughts. Most places and people I play have a "1 dread per 1k" gentleman's agreement. I don't want to even touch being that guy with the dread lists. And frankly I just don't want to play that way

[lavish pike]

Honestly MS 6+ isn't that bad. Rending doesn't matter since it's AP3 anyway, so you're rolling on your invuln the whole time.

[lavish pike]

I understand, I offered it more as an answer to this WAAC style of gameplay

Well, if your eventual goal is mass Immortals, I salute you. Having COBI available to you as a unique and powerful Iron Hands option is a good plan, even if you don't intend to overdo it in every game.

[agile moss]

The issue with this player...he's a really nice guy. I don't think he realizes how his mind gets pulled into optimization because he plays 40k competitively and he just naturally drifts to that. I don't think he's aware or objective about how OP Mhara Gal and/or Gal Vorbak are. Anytime I mention something along the lines he responds with something like "Well you know they are like 55 points per model...."

[agile moss]

When you run immortals, do you run with bolters or chainswords. I assume chainswords

[lavish pike]

Chainswords only give shred, you can't gain the two weapon fighting bonus with a breacher shield

I run them with bolters, though many people prefer volkite

I'm like 90% sure the kit doesn't even come with volkite though

[meager glacier]

Volkite is the correct answer

[meager glacier]

I'd encourage you to play different types of missions. Play anything with progressive scoring, especially the goonhammer mission pack. Makes games much more interesting and you have to build a scoring list rather than just a kill stuff list

[meager glacier]

That's a meta dependent thing. Never spoken to anyone with issues with CoBI myself and I've played pretty regularly since 2e dropped. CoBI immortals are tough as nails but they're pretty fair

[agile moss]

I haven't played a COBI yet. That's the long term project/standard though. They are extremely expensive though a full unit of 20 is like 430 pts!

[lavish pike]

A lot of people (including me) tend to forget they're 1W because they're so expensive

[hollow goblet]

Never heard of people frowning on COBI locally

[lavish pike]

It was a problem near edition start because people already had mass Immortals

But, like Fury of the Ancients, people know how to fight it now and it's less of a problem

[hollow goblet]

I mean the solution to COBI isn't exactly a very difficult one to figure out

[lavish pike]

Now it's just kinda ostracized, at least on the west coast

[hollow goblet]

Like just throw your WS 5 legion specific melee unit at them

Hell even WS 4 can work in some cases