why is time warp not evadable?

[wise wedge]

the spell should be a projectile

[limpid basalt]

just break the tether

[wise wedge]

any wizard who knows that combo isnt going to give you time to break it

[jagged vault]

Time Warp should have atleast a 1 - 1.5 sec. timer before being able to reactivate it.
it's actual bad design, that it gives the receiver no way of destroying the tether if he instant reactivates it.

[copper sluice]

If it’s instantly reactivated, it can’t be combod into unless you made the mistake of quickly distancing as you’re getting time warp applied. Extremely bad take if you’re complaining about this move

Not to mention, I quite literally apply time warp when I know you’re trying to evade/get distance. It’s a game of chess…

[jagged vault]

nice chess game you play with a spell that in that case has exactly 0 counterplay.

but atleast you tryed to sound competent.

[copper sluice]

It only has 0 counterplay if you instantly reactivated it, which nets you nothing. Not to mention, it costs mana.

At least you tried*
Judging competence and misspelling tried in the same sentence. Yikes

[jagged vault]

I don’t even know why I bother explaining to an average player why it’s unhealthy for the game to have no reactivation delay on TW. It gives zero counterplay, players should have a chance to break the tether before getting ported back. (All of this has nothing to do with whether you can combo out of it, but that’s probably a bit too advanced for you.)

And correcting a non-native speaker spelling instead of addressing the actual argument? That’s peak insecurity. If flexing basic english is how you deal with losing, maybe just sit the next one out.

[copper sluice]

Well, let me address a few things.

1. I know nothing about you… what your native language is, what you do for a living etc… the beauty about competence is that it’s blind to most context. Whether you’re a native speaker or not doesn’t matter here. You lack competence in spelling basic English words. This is a fact, not me trying to flex. (?)
2. You still haven’t explained why no delay on tw is “unhealthy” for the game outside of “…Its bad design.” You’re just saying the same thing. If wizards can’t net a single benefit from instantly reactivating it, while costing mana, why is it unhealthy? Just seems like a failed tw, or to proc shoulders.
3. I realized I hit somewhere close to home for you. Sorry if I hurt you bud, I won’t attack you personally, you’re safe from the scary internet man.

[jagged vault]

There’s zero time for the opponent to react, break the tether, or do literally anything except eat it.
Even if you snap me back instantly just to gain two feet of space, the effect is the same, it kills my tempo, cancels sprint windup, and skips any meaningful interaction. That’s not outplaying someone, that’s pressing a no-counter button twice and calling it a read.

The worst part about the spell? I can’t dodge, block, or do anything about it. Zero interaction or counter from my side when it's instantly reactivated. (And it literally doesn’t matter if your benefit is so minimal that you call it wasted.)

And what do you mean with “it costs mana!”.
Reality check: every spell costs mana in this game. What’s next, “it has an animation, so it’s fair”?

You keep calling it a “failed TW” if it’s used instantly. If you’re so convinced that instant TW is a throwaway and “wasted mana,” then what’s your problem with adding a 1-second reactivation delay?
If it’s trash like you say, you shouldn’t even notice, right?

Anyway, I’d keep explaining, but trying to teach counterplay and balance to someone who thinks unreactable design = chess is like trying to teach a fish how to climb.

[copper sluice]

The same 2 feet of distance you get will be negated by the fact you'll have to turn around and kill it. I don't even mind adding a 1 second delay, my point is I don't think it will make a difference. Killing your tempo is partially the point of the spell, kind of seems like you don't want any "meaningful interaction" and just want to limit counterplay as this is extremely meaningful on the wizards end lmao. It's not like the fight ends there after you get tw for 2 feet of distance. I get you obviously want to be right here but this is probably more complex in terms of balance and design than either of us can grasp. I'll agree to disagree, I think you're just one of those.

Could guise an argument the same way and make it seem like battle frenzy is just so broken and bad design. I mEaN, tHeReS lIterAlLy nO coUnTeRplAy.

[jagged vault]

you're just not getting the point.

TW is a skillfree ability, no skillshot, not avoidable, nothing. Press and autoattached. Goes through iframes (fun fact, frenzy doesn't, if he frenzies in my i frame, my blockpips don't get touched)

This is the only problem, we are playing an action combat and there should be no guaranteed, everything needs a counterplay, even if it's such a minimal window to react.

Let it be a projectile like PD, a timeframe where we can destroy tether or anything.

Just an example, i play duos, chasing a wiz i get TW and my teammate is a smart ass destroying the tether before the 1 sec delay is over.
-> Skillexpression 🤯
How it works now? Double tap and stop the chase.

[copper sluice]

You're so right dude

[dark pebble]

#ModusIsRight

[weary marsh]

He is, you would have a problem with it from the receiving end. Especially one of the classes that have no answer for it and truly can get 1 shot from full.
Bad design of just getting kind of close and just tapping q twice to confirm 1600+ damage if you have the mana up for it

But i get it, if you choose to do that combo you're out of the fight for a while. I still dont think it should be an auto lock skill that does it. Make it a skill shot and it's fine.

[mellow swallow]

Doing the time warp recall immediately after doesn't net you anything, though, is what the other guy is trying to communicate.

In order to combo off of time warp you need to set something else up before recalling, and that window of time is roughly like 1-2 seconds for animations to play out.

It's typically Time warp>silence circle>tw recall, then followed up with something else like a cyclone or just leftclick. This is counterable by hitting the TW while the wiz is casting arclight circle.

If wiz TW>TW recall>arclight circle, the circle is dodgeable. Even a cyclone followup can be dodged with good timing. Wiz can barely gets anything out of immediately recalling a landed TW.

[thorny bane]

Make time warp a skill shot

[thorny bane]

I been begging for it to be a skill shot and not a tan target ability

[fluid moth]

I'm a mage main, and I do agree that if you play it right there isn't much counterplay unless the other person completely expects it to come. I don't fully know what the best solution is because I think as a skill shot it becomes incredibly easy to deal with as you just wait for it to touch you and then attack and instantly break it. This change makes it borderline useless. I think a CD before you can press it again is probably the best option, but that's going to be difficult to get the timing right as too slow and the spell becomes useless.

[copper sluice]

Almost as much sKiLl eXpResSiOn as spamming jump attacks on warrior

[wise wedge]

timewarp needs to be evadable, otherwise i want irongrip buffed

[mighty pebble]

Irongrip is not evadeable on close range either

I think timewarp should have a longer window of like 1.5seconds for them to actually reuse it to warp u back.

Currently its unlikely to destroy the warp if the wizard pays attention

U are best of using any aoe ability or looking at the wizard directly walking backwards so u hit the warp as soon as it spawns.

Kinda have to predict it aswell.

[rocky helm]

There should 100% be a minimum time before they can activate it so it gives us a chance to destroy it every time

[wise wedge]

no but it is blockable now isnt it? also, its actually evadable unlike timewarp.

[mellow swallow]

semi blockable, you'll still get dragged but not stunned

[mighty pebble]

Blockable but still able to get tethered even when blocking.

[wise wedge]

yup, but not CC'd and able to evade immediately and like i said before, its actually evadable unlike timewarp

[wise wedge]

correct, able to evade immediately and like i said before, its actually evadable unlike timewarp

[mighty pebble]

the initial grip on close range is instant and only predictable. if u react once the sound cue hit or his char moves and he didn't miss himself u are hooked

[wise wedge]

timewarp is the issue here fellas, not irongrip
irongrip - a projectile skill that is evadable
timewarp - a unavoidable skill (needs to become a projectile)

[weary marsh]

what about SS

[mighty pebble]

yeah timeward cannot miss cuz its not an "aimshot"

[wise wedge]

well, it needs to be a "aimshot"

[rocky helm]

Any and every ability that you cant react to needs nerfing. PD, SS, Star, Irongrip, timewarp

[mighty pebble]

yeah potentially

[rocky helm]

the core pillar of action combat is IFRAMES. If we dont even get the oppertunity to dodge, then the design has failed

[mighty pebble]

idk what it needs. a wizard getting his combo off 100% of the time is not smth cool im looking forward to

[wise wedge]

cmon man, iron grip is slow as fk, its animation may be instant, but its travel speed is a fkin snooze fest, easily avoided and interruptible, it got nothing on timewarp
if a warriors catching you with a irongrip, its because hes pressuring you forcing you to evade and catching you on the rebound /shrug

[rocky helm]

yeah im not sure how to buff it. Same thing with PD right. Its only OP in melee distance because u literally cannot dodge it at all. But then the counter argument is, if ur far away it super easy to dodge. That's not a good enough excuse.

Every single ability in the game MUST be dodgeable. Close range or long range doesnt matter

iframes is the core pillar of this genre

[wise wedge]

what is the range on timewarp and why hasnt it been nerfed yet?

[wise wedge]

18meters and the wizard can cast in mid motion and lose zero momentum (doesnt have to remain still while it completes its animation)

meanwhile the OP irongrip is 10meters, has a slow dodgeable/interruptable animation and i have to stand still for two seconds while it completes its animation

[mellow swallow]

Irongrip is instantaneous at close range. Charge is only required to extend the range. It's arguably even more egregious than time warp at close range.

[wise wedge]

a instant iron grip is a stationary skill which has a range of 10meters (unless fully charged) and takes about 1.5-2seconds to travel to its target. easily evaded and interrupted, unlike timewarp which isnt a stationary skill (allowing the wizard to cast mid sprint without losing moment) has a maximum range of 18 meters, instant cast, instant travel and isnt interruptible, dont piss in my ear and tell me its raining

[mellow swallow]

Sounds very one sided when you discount the fact that time warp does not stun when landed like irongrip, and that immediate recall doesn't allow you to combo because you can dodge immediately upon recall, avoiding any damage. Any instance of timewarp getting a follow up requires 1-2 or more seconds of set up casting, in which time the TW can be destroyed by either a stiff breeze or a mean look. And you will always be within immediate range to destroy the TW, unless you intentionally or not continue running away from it for whatever reason.

From the wiz perspective, if they recall immediately to give you no option to react, they've spent a not insignificant amount of mana to move the enemy two feet, for no reward as dodging will always be possible after.

Irongrip hitting is, in nearly all instances where it lands unguarded, guaranteed free, unavoidable followup damage. Irongrip at close range is basically instantaneous, requiring foresight rather than fast reaction.

[thin moss]

Instant re-activation of TW is pointless to talk about since it does litteraly nothing. If anything, when a Wizard does that to you you're in a better position than if he didn't TW since he just devoted a significant amount of his very limited resources to achieve absolutely nothing.

If he was already close enough to get off a DB on you then he should have just used that in stead and saved the mana for scrolls or Archlight Explosion.
If he wasn't already close enough to get a combo off then he won't be after an instant activation either since he wouldn't be able to move you more than 2 feet with that and you just lost less than half a second of running and you can then Dodge away if he does teleport to you.

You're literally arguing for him to not be able to be less effective against you here my man...

Instant re-activation of TW only has one effect and that is triggering the shoulder effect, if he is not close enough to put damage on you to begin with after that it's irrelevant, if he was close enough then saving that mana for later would be better regardless.

I get the "there should be no unavoidable effects" argument, however the "avoid mechanic" of TW is to break the orb, or force him to waste it on a instant re-activation where you just burned a chunk of his mana for 0 gain on his part. Either way, you won there.
Break the orb = avoided.
Force instant re-activation = wasted effect / basically avoided. 🤷

[jagged vault]

make it a skillshot and leave the rest as it is.

[sharp skiff]

If one more wizard player writes in this thread that insta bring back on timewarp doesnt get you anything I am gonna let it rain meteors on your homes.

how long are you guys playing wizard?

[sharp skiff]

just do this and its fine

[mighty pebble]

its always like that if u find people maining a class and people demand a nerf they start coping

[chrome venture]

Making it a "skillshot" meaning a projectile of some sort would change more than you might realize?.

It would be dodge and blockable ofc and since it's not only used on an opponent

• It would impact casting on a friendly, making this a lot less smooth action too

• It would most likely need a re-design on the self cast as well..or be a projectile sometimes and sometimes not and if you cast it by not target anything it would be a projectile shooting out somewhere ?

Regardless the question would be if it still would be a usable spell or redundant after a change like this tbh. I suspect not.

[jagged vault]

what are you overthinking.
if thrown without pressing alt it's a projectile, if pressed with alt it's selfcast.

[chrome venture]

ok perhaps, just saying it most likely still would need adjusting even if minor.

Example: As is now if you just cast the spell without targeting (look other way or in ground) and not using alt (if that is your key) it would count as a self target however if it's a projectile skillshot this shortcut without using a key wouldn't work same way.

My point is though (if you not focusing on this one that may or may not be a minor) is that it's a pretty significant change imo and the question would be if the spell would be usable, I doubt it.

You asking to change it from auto targeting within a range to a projectile skillshot that can be dodged/blocked which also would affect casting on friendly and possibly self cast, and how well would it work on a priest that always have shield on more or less...

[jagged vault]

oh i forgot, putting skill expression to something is not something people enjoy nowadays.

rather leave it nobrain, thinking before using an ability is to much.

[chrome venture]

Haha well I'm not arguing against that though..just saying that suggested change to this particular spell might be a bit much and it risks being redundant and never will be used again..

[jagged vault]

the thing is, the other suggestion was putting in a delay before being able to reactivate it. This probably would kill the ability in higher skill play.
So it being a skillshot would be a big reward if hit. I guess i would even be ok, if it's unblockable tbh. it's more about giving the spell atleast 1 counterplay then making it useless

[sharp skiff]

I agree with Modus here. I would say if you add a delay then the spell is for sure dead.

If you make a skill shot out of it then it actually adds “skill” to use it whereas now it’s just about spacing that you need to know and handle.

It’s still up for discussion if it should be blockable or unblockable then but tbh if it’s blockable but takes 1 pip I think it might be kinda fine

[mighty pebble]

let it be dead.

[wise wedge]

hows about we reduce its range from 18 meters to 10

[jagged vault]

wouldn't chagne much, because to chain it up to the combo you need to be close

[wise wedge]

and if the opponent is running away from the wizard?

double blink, time warp, no getting away from that shit

[gleaming sphinx]

Not gonna lie the issue isn’t time warp itself for the most part it’s the damage that they follow up with it. If the combo did 10-20% max hp it wouldn’t be much of an issue

[sharp skiff]

[sharp skiff]

What do you mean by that?

[sharp skiff]

The issue is most certainly timewarp because it creates an undodgeable combo “without much effort”

Ofc you can argue that the damage output is too high

But if you tune down the damage then the wizard just does the combo 3-4 times until you are dead. Which feels really bad and repetitive

[gleaming sphinx]

i mean then you have the wizard run out of mana also the wizard has to be relatively close range to pull it off sacrificing distance. but yeah i mean so many issues with the game atm you have to start fixing the core problems and then you can focus on smaller fixes like time warp

[sharp skiff]

And that would be just bad design. If to fight one person means being mana starved all the time then this class is dead.

It already is like that, you already need to be “in their face” to pull
the combo off.

For wizard the core problem is more or less energy useage and timewarp.

If you want no “oneshotty” combos, then you need to make the kit more spammable -> thus less mana per spell

Or you make it so that it’s harder to land the combo -> change timewarp to non lock on

[rocky helm]

I don't think any combos doing more than 70% HP will ever be healthy in an extraction game tbh

Losing your kit because you made one mistake is a quick way to uninstall and find a different game that values your time better

[sharp skiff]

@rocky helm maybe the damage could still be tuned down but if the combo is hard to pull off you likely take a lot of damage until you can pull it off.

You would still need to triple blink in, hit the timewarp, reactivate and combo off of it. If you miss timewarp you are just in someone’s face with barely any stamina

[wise wedge]

sorry about that, didnt mean to say gravity well, i corrected my previous comment, it now says time warp.

I said nerf time warps range from 18 meters to 10

modusmonsters said - wouldnt change much, because to chain it up to the combo you need to be close

so i said - and if the opponent is running away from the wizard?
double blink, time warp, no getting away form that shit

basically implying that 18 meters is still absurd

soooo, time warp has a range of 18 meters and by some chance the opponent has put 40 meters between him and the wizard. the wizard can literally triple evade 24meters and combo it with a 18meter timewarp, there for you're not going nowhere

[sharp skiff]

Timewarp is only good if you are actually close, changing the range wouldn’t change anything

[wise wedge]

idk where the devs get off allowing a wizard to triple evade fro 24+meters and still have 30+ stamina to use

as a warrior if i triple evade, im left with 10stamina and i've traveled maybe 13 meters?... gtfoh with that bs

[wise wedge]

changing the range would allow a victim to potentially run away

i dont get how you're not understanding this

[sharp skiff]

I think you don’t understand how it works

The range isn’t an issue

[wise wedge]

the range is an issue

18meters if absurd

anyone whos trying to outrun it, is fkd

[sharp skiff]

…..

[wise wedge]

i give zero fks about the combo bud
Im debating the range of the spell

as a matter of fact, just make it an evadable projectile as i've originally said

[sharp skiff]

“time warp has a range of 18 meters and by some chance the opponent has put 40 meters between him and the wizard. the wizard can literally triple evade 24meters and combo it with a 18meter timewarp, there for you're not going nowhere”

If for whatever reason you are 40 meters away and I triple blink for 24meters as you just said. Then there is still 16meters between you and the wizard.

If the wizard presses the button and hits you (it could very much happen that he self casts because you are just out of range) but lets assume he hits you. Then he has no stamina to follow up and you can just destroy the timewarp and keep running

I agree with the projectile part, that’s all it needs

[wise wedge]

fantastic

[jagged vault]

this was one wierd rollercoaster to just get back to what all agreed.

[wise wedge]

true