Best Colleges for Premed

[low finch]

• Location/Region: Anywhere in America. I’m from Illinois but I’m fine with leaving.

• Major: Neuroscience or Biology. I’m fine with majoring in something else if it would be better for premed

• GPA/Test Scores: 3.96 UW 4.6 W | 1510 NMQST | 800 Math 710 English SAT

• Curriculum: Good professors and classes that set me up for med school

-Size: Not a factor

• Costs: Not a factor

• Schools You're Currently Looking At: I’m shotgunning BS/MD programs and also applying to some prestigious schools, I’ll send a list below.

I need help removing colleges from my list and possibly adding ones that are a better fit for me.

Do I really need Yale Harvard Rice and Duke?

Are there any good LACs for premed that I can add?

Thanks for your help!

[compact vine]

If youre doing Duke might as well add UNC. Lots of cross between students and faculty (and RTP is good for biomed prehealth etc)

[compact vine]

Why do you want to apply to them?

[low finch]

✨ prestige ✨

And since they are prestigious I’d have a better chance into getting into a decent med school

Ooh ur an md

Woah

[low finch]

Thank you! I’ll look into that

[compact vine]

Undergrad prestige doesnt matter so much for med school

Its more GPA and ECs/experience

Afaik

[dark cradle]

apply to more bsmds

ur list should just be ur state school/some sort of public that gives full ride and all bsmds if u are committed to premed

[low finch]

Okay thank you!

Right now I’m thinking of deleting rice and/or yale and/or Berkeley and adding 2/3 more BSMDs

[dark cradle]

defo do that. i applied to like 15 bsmds and got smoked

[low finch]

did you make any?

[dark cradle]

no

i got to final stage of 2

[low finch]

omg 😭

[dark cradle]

but like even at interview stage

this program was like 10 of 60 get in

[low finch]

That’s so scary

[dark cradle]

out of already the 60 selected out of 2000

[low finch]

Would you say you had good ECs?

[dark cradle]

alright ecs just not enough clinical hours

[low finch]

BSMDs are like impossible

[dark cradle]

like 300 clinical hours

on the low end

[low finch]

WTF?

what did you do for clinical hours

wtf I have 0

[dark cradle]

shadowing two doctors

volunteering

if you look at some of their websites they say average accepted applicant's clinical houirs ranges from like 300-700

my friend had 1k butr hes tryhard

[low finch]

like with patients or at the front desk

[dark cradle]

yes

anything related to patients

[low finch]

alright thank you

I’m going to look into shadowing

[calm wind]

wait ur not exaggerating right 300 is actually considered low??? 😭

sorry if im like barging into ur convo

[dark cradle]

ok i exaggereated a bit 300 is just alright

[calm wind]

dyk what counts as clinical? besides shadowing

bc rn i only have 100 hrs of volunteering and obv like volunteering alone isnt good enough

[inland forge]

if you fuck up at BSMD look at colleges with EAP

like georgetown

[inland forge]

btw berkeley is BADDD

for pre med

compared to all these other schools

i'd rather you go to a small lac with a good transfer rate to an ivy or to med school than berkely

[low finch]

I just saw that and removed it lol

[inland forge]

🙏

any uc is trash compared to lac's

good lac's

[low finch]

Thank you for your help!

[inland forge]

what you trying to be man?

[low finch]

Any lac suggestions?

Surgeon hopefully

But maybe something else

I know some type of doctor for sure

[inland forge]

same bor same

[inland forge]

amherst, occidental

[low finch]

good luck with PLME! When does it come out?

[inland forge]

you should probably retake the sat

but focus on getting a higher english score only

so you can get a superscore

[inland forge]

]thursday

im cooked bro

oh yea

do the albany bsmd

that one is 7 years

[low finch]

Taking the required school one soon I will do better cuz it’s digital so shorter passages

[inland forge]

yea

you got a 800 math

[low finch]

Ooh manifesting for u

[inland forge]

so you basically just need any englihs score better than 740 and you are good

[inland forge]

manifest for georgetwon

as well

rn im 0-7 to all privates i applied to

i only got into all UC's

which is good since ucla but not best for pre med

[low finch]

https://tenor.com/view/spongebob-squarepants-begging-pretty-please-beg-on-your-knees-pray-for-mercy-gif-26344462

[low finch]

Oh wow

[inland forge]

@low finch whats your ec's?

[low finch]

I work as a pharmacy tech 12 hours every week, volunteer main entrance 4 hours every week, work as coding instructor for fun 4 hours every week, varsity science Olympiad, virtual shadowing, 2 month 40 hours per week cancer research program @ UIC this summer, minor stuff

[inland forge]

you work?

[low finch]

I feel pretty good with my ECs

[inland forge]

nice

[low finch]

also music stuff

just scared about shadowing

[inland forge]

any published research?

[inland forge]

you got time if you grind

personally i got 1k hous

[low finch]

I think I will after the program

[inland forge]

and that got me shit lmao

[low finch]

1k shadowing!?

[inland forge]

and God hasn't granted me a blessing yet

[low finch]

what the hell

[inland forge]

georgetown save me 🙏

[low finch]

what else do you have

[inland forge]

just religious leadership stuff

tahts about it

you seem to be better for the bs/md programs

[low finch]

nah but 1k is wild

[inland forge]

[low finch]

It shows ur prepared

[inland forge]

its in a clinic

not a big ass hospital

so they basically dunk on me

[inland forge]

well its spread out

not in the same place

but if you add it its 1k

[low finch]

ur gonna make it

[inland forge]

pray for me bro lmao

just uh dont fuck up your grades

that messed me up

1530 superscore means jack if you only got a 3.8

[dark cradle]

@inland forge

no way u have 1k hours shadowing WTF

[inland forge]

Yessir

[dark cradle]

istg AOs will think ur cappin outta ur ass

most premeds have like 200 max

[inland forge]

I put letters of rec

[dark cradle]

in college

[inland forge]

From the doctors

[dark cradle]

wtf

[inland forge]

Yea lol

Can't cap that

[dark cradle]

ok then why shadow 1k hours

[inland forge]

Wdym

I mean its not all shadowing

Some research there. Clinical assistance there

In total about 1k

[dark cradle]

O

[inland forge]

College domt give a shit though lmao

[dark cradle]

that makes more sense

[inland forge]

All rejections

From privates

[dark cradle]

yeah they just gloss over shadowing tbh

[inland forge]

I hope georgetown accept me

[inland forge]

They he hating

Be*

[inland forge]

For georgetown

Pray for me man

[tired yoke]

this list is all t20s and bsmds so u might want to consider some more target/safeties

well i guess uiuc instate is a safety

[low finch]

yeah uiuc for biology is my saftey. I’ll add another one tho

[tired yoke]

this is gna be a shit ton of work

[low finch]

mhm I need to remove some

[dark cradle]

u need only 1 safety

[dark cradle]

@inland forge

in georgetown?

[inland forge]

God forsakes me

[low finch]

rip

[low finch]

@inland forge what about brown

[low finch]

noo

good luck

ucla is great

[spark cradle]

If you're close enough to smell the patient, than it is most likely clinical experience. Keyword is "patient", as in an actual patient in a sick role- people walking into the hospital may or may not be receiving care. In other words, shadowing is a yes, medical receptionist is a maybe depending on tasks, greeter at the door is no, hospital gift shop is an even bigger no.

Applicants to med school should have around ~200 hours of experience involving actual patient care, ideally of you in an exam room either observing or directly participating in the medical interview or physical

Ideally, you should have enough hours so that if I ask you "what does a doctor do" you should have a very comprehensive answer with examples derived from your experiences.

[spark cradle]

undergraduate prestige does not matter for most medical schools. Prestige does matter for the top 15 or so medical schools, but very slightly. Most people do not go to the top 15 medical schools, so for most people, prestige does not matter. More importantly, prestige will not help explain or otherwise bolster an application with a bad GPA or MCAT

[calm wind]

ohh TYSMM!!

[calm wind]

does med school prestige matter for residency?

[spark cradle]

the answer to that question is unfortunately yes. Even before the recent USMLE STEP 1 changes, ivory towers clearly existed in the top ~5 legacy schools (JHU, Harvard, UCSF, UPenn, Stanford). Residency match lists at all of these instuitutions spoke for themselves. Now that Step 1 is P/F, and the USMLE has indicated that Step 2 will move towards the same, you can expect prestige to matter even more.

While the move to P/F is generally seen as a positive one, it remains to be seen how it will affect residency directors' decisions.

All of this matters very little to you, or really to most medical students in the long run. It only matters if you are certain that you would like to match into a highly competitive residency- a decision which most medical students are unsure of before third year, much less an undergrad premed, and even less so for a high school student. In reality, most people do not want to go into those highly competitive residencies, and everyone graduates a doctor.

Highly competitive residencies include ortho, plastics, ENT, neurosurg, derm, and sometimes ophth.

These residencies are highly specialized, and many are surgical. Most people do not want to be surgeons. All medical students are required to do a surgery rotation, which means yes, your local family practioner has held the scapel before and decided it wasn't for them. So for most people, they won't be competing for those spots.

Anyways, all of this to say- you guys just focus on applying for BS/MD schools, and then focus on finding your way in a supportive undergrad environment. Most premeds don't go to med school, not because they don't make it (although medical schools are incredibly selective), but because medicine is a highly specialized field requiring a specific set of skills and personality. So for most students, they find medicine to not be the career for them.

[calm wind]

Omg tysm for taking the time to write all that I rlly appreciate it

😭😭 dang it I rlly liked case Western's Bsmd program 😭

[calm wind]

I wanna be a derm ;-; am I already cooked I think so

[spark cradle]

respectfully, you most likely have no idea what it's like to be a dermatologist, even if you've shadowed one. Unless you know the pathology behind lesions, including the histology and autoimmune systems at play, the derm exam room is essentially a black box for anyone who hasn't completed two years of medical school.

that doesn't mean that it isn't the speciality for you, however- I would take heart in the unknown, since it means that there is so much to learn.

[calm wind]

Truee yeah I just find that kinda stuff interesting but I'm definitely okay with other paths like anesthesiology

[spark cradle]

you're picking out very specialized fields that most people either love or hate. Anesthesia is another field that offers very little to student shadowers unable to discuss pharmacology or without a license to assist in intubation. Unless you shadow critical care, there is little knowledge to gain at your level. If you are interviewed at a BS/MD program, and you are inevitably asked about what you would like to do, I would refrain from selecting these specialties without very significant experience in those fields.

I would urge most premeds to seek experience either in family medicine, emergency med, or if they are extremely lucky, hospital internal medicine wards

Ideally, you would be able to ask the attending or resident their thought process bheind the medical interview or their assessment/plan during downtime. The so-called "bread and butter" of internal medicine is what most people practice during their career, and it is what you should seek to understand as a premed.

[calm wind]

Wait that's true yeah omg okay TYSMM

I plan on getting a job as a part time caretaker in a nursing home after ap exams

I have a couple of choices to apply for

My summer is gonna be so busy omg 😭 how am I gonna have time to write my essays

[spark cradle]

this is a very good clinical experience insofar as real patient interaction is concerned, albeit lacking in actual clinical decision making. I would look to see if the medical director of the facility is ever available, and whether you would be able to speak with them at all when selecting a facility to work at.

In any case, all of you students are certainly miles ahead of where I was in high school- great job all.

[calm wind]

Got it, thank you so much for your help!! :)

[echo flame]

oh

[inland forge]

Is being an EMT good experience as well?

[spark cradle]

being an EMT is probably the best hands on experience you can get as a premedical student. However, the role of the EMT varies wildly. The scope of an EMT without receiving paramedic training (although even with paramedic training, scope is quite limited to basic EKG reads and intubation) lies firmly within taking vitals, blood pressure, and EKG measurements. EMTs also never make any real clinical decisions other than hospital or no hospital, or in the case of mass casualty incidents, walking, not walking, or dead. This means that in the role of most EMTs take on, which resides in the ambulance, you get a ton of patient interaction and real clinical experience yet paradoxically do not really get any experience regarding what it means to be a physician.

However, the real strength that the EMT certification carries is the ability to actually be hands on and operate under a medical director's license, just as NPs, PAs, and nurses do. This means EMTs in the ED get to be hands on and also be privy to some real medical decision making done by staff (staff = residents and clerkship students in the hospital) and attending physicians. So, if you can get the role, and find a preceptor that you can build a relationship with, and EMT in the ED working under the direction of a physician is probably the best clinical experience you can get.

certainly for me at least, when a student tells me that they have an EMT certification, I would be more confident in their ability to possibly assist me in the clinic.

[low finch]

@spark cradle what about CNA?

[calm wind]

im gonna try get an emt cert as soon as im 18 then but thats not until november of my freshman year of college 💀 thats so late

[spark cradle]

CNA has the potential for being just as good as an EMT- you also get experience with direct patient care, which most premed students do not get. However, CNA can also be much farther from the actual clinical decision making in the hospital. I favor EMT only because it is probably easier to find a clinical preceptor willing to take on a student or perhaps an attending or resident to follow around in the (usually) open nature of the ED's hustle and bustle. Comparatively, many nurses on wards will see the medical team only once per day by coincidence as the team passes through the hall on rounds n the morning.

In my opinion, the real positive of EMT is that many campuses will have an on campus EMS service that you can leverage as clinical hours. Every EMS service will also have a medical director attending, as EMTs must operate under a physicians medical license. This attending is usually also affiliated with a nearby hospital/the university's hospital, and so becomes a valuable contact to take on students for ED shifts. Even if not, the director can introduce you to ED attendings- many of you will find out that networking is key in every industry, and medicine is no exception. An introduction from another attending will most certainly get you many opportunities.

[spark cradle]

you really shouldn't worry about getting an EMT certification as early as possible, and certainly getting in november of your freshman year is not late. You are currently essentially getting clinical experience in order to be competitive for BS/MD programs, not for medical school- that will come during undergrad. Therefore, you will have all 4 years of undergrad to get clinical experience. Getting your EMT cert freshman year is quite early.

[low finch]

Thank you

@spark cradle do u have to be strong and fit for emt lol

I might do cna senior year of HS and freshman year of college then do EMT

[spark cradle]

if by strong/fit you mean capable of fireman carrying people to safety, then no, you do not. However, you do need to be generally able-bodied.

Anything that requires force or manpower is handled by the police or the fire dept, respectively.

[low finch]

What do u need to be able-bodied for

I’m like skinny and weak lol

[spark cradle]

You should honestly just choose CNA or EMT based on circumstance. If the undergrad you go to has an EMS service, do that.

Are you capable to walking and getting in and out of the ambulance?

then you are able bodied.

[low finch]

O

lol

[low finch]

Okay thanks, rn I can only do cna cuz I’m <18 and don’t have a HS diploma so I’ll get my certification for that and do it my senior year then do EMT if my college offers it

[spark cradle]

sound ambitious, and if you can pull it off while not sacrificing other parts of your application that is probably more important (SAT, GPA, etc), then it sounds like a good experience to talk about in your essays and interviews. Good luck.

[echo flame]

what do you recommend i should do as a hs senior rn?

i heard getting certifications in the summer would be the best

[spark cradle]

do you know where you are going for undergrad or are you a rising senior?

If you get a certification during the summer before arriving to undergrad, you are already far ahead of the pack.

however, you should really just enjoy your summer off and go into undergrad fresh- a long four years are ahead of you. premed is not easy for most.

You really don't want to be burnt out. The time to burn out is in medical school or residency

and besides, what is more important than optimizing what kind of clinical exp you get is instead looking at trying optimize GPA and MCAT scores at your specific undergrad.

[echo flame]

for now rutgers pre-med (i go mostly free bc of scholly) so ill be able to graduate debt free

[echo flame]

yeah thats fair + i wanted to ask do schools have premed counseling? similar to how there is a counselor in hs

[echo flame]

Also Rutgers has this program which to me seems like an bs/md u would internally apply for which is cool

not sure how common it is for other schools to have it ^

[spark cradle]

It depends on the school. The quality of the advising is also variable between schools. I wouldn't know the first thing about Rutgers advising, you should find a current premed student preferablly a junior to ask.

[spark cradle]

With all else equal, you should always prioritize a free education.

[spark cradle]

You should email the office at Rutgers that oversees this program, tell them that you are in incoming student, and are wondering about the usual accepted applicant profile for this program.

If you have intro biology AP credit, you should probably use it and take the two other upper level biology credits noted in the requirements for this program. (this also depend on how rutgers transfers the AP credit, i.e 5 = A, 4 = B). At most universities, (no idea about Rutgers) the most difficult classes are usually the introduction classes due to the larger number of students taking it, the increased dependence on traditional exams, and the corresponding lowered curve.

I would connect with an upperclassman and ask about "easy upper level bio classes to take", there are always a few gimmes in the course catalog

You would likely have to hurry on getting clinical experience in order to apply to the internal ba/md program. Either way, I think it's an excellent goal to reach for.

[echo flame]

firstly thank you so much for the in depth advice!! super super helpful

[echo flame]

yeah got it, but cant most premed stuff be found online especially on r/premed? which ive been lurking on for the past 3 months

[echo flame]

yeah thats true, also my school has no APs, so i graduate with an associates and almost all of my cc credits should transfer (hence i can graduate in 2.5 years, although this doesnt seem ideal especially when considering people take a gap year after 4 yr ug, but yeah intro classes i heard are usually the hardest as well as not to take two science classes simulatenously

[echo flame]

yeah got it will do!

[echo flame]

yeah for sure, would you say anything i do after highschool (such as the summer) be fair game to put on AMCAS application? ive heard different opinions such as whatever you do when u start college is considered and nothing before being a college student is eligible to put for MD applications

[echo flame]

yeah the minimum gpa is 3.8 + mainly EC based

also i saw this post which SHOCKED me.

[spark cradle]

if it was something as significant as EMT or CNA work then it would definitely count. For that internal BA/MD, it would probably count too.

[spark cradle]

I have no idea why you're shocked. 2 year gap + successful research career + URM + low SES + good GPA = acceptances, even with a lower MCAT.

[echo flame]

what is a low SES?

im more shocked at the fact that going to hypsm for ug -> feeds to any med school

which i did not 100% believe before but now this is one of countless examples ive seen

[echo flame]

is there any minimum requirement in terms of hours you need for med school apps?

[calm wind]

from what i've seen nobody has under 1k

[spark cradle]

#1222253378847899658 message

This person would have gotten into those schools even if he/she was not in a t5 undergrad

[spark cradle]

low socioeconomic status. AMCAS also tags whether you are from a rural or medically underserved area on your application.

[spark cradle]

1k clinical hours is way overdoing it

[spark cradle]

you should have at least 200-300 of real clinical hours where you observe and interact with physicians

ideally, you would then supplement that with other clinical volunteer work that is easier to get with high patient contact, such as the above mentioned positions like nursing home volunteer for another 200-300 hours

If you have both of these (200+200), you would be extremely competitive

I myself had ~400 clinical hours when applying, and that was on the high end as somebody who started early and did an EMT certification.

[echo flame]

oh i see

also irrelevant but did u take a gap year at all?

[echo flame]

ohhhh ok i see

yeah that makes a lot of sense tysm!

[spark cradle]

I did take a gap year, and most competitive applicants do. An adcom at a T20 medical school (not my institution) told me that 50% of applications that make it to his desk have taken at least one gap year. Even without the edge that it gives you on applications, I would recommend it to everyone- medical school and then residency is a long and nonstop road. Students should take that time to work or research for a bit while applying rather than trying to rush through life. Anecdotally, I could usually tell when an applicant took a gap year or not just based on how they conducted themselves on the interview trail. People who take an extra year and spend it in the workforce among older people unsurprisingly become more mature and thoughtful.

[calm wind]

its rare that people take 3 or more gap years though right? usually its 1-2?

[spark cradle]

median age of matriculation is 24 at many top schools.

usually it's either 1 gap year (applying during the gap) or 2 gap years (1 gap then apply)

or some other people do a masters to override their undergrad GPA, which is 2 years.

[calm wind]

ahh i see thank u!! yeah if i take 2 gap years i'll be 22 💀 most people complete residency around 33 right 😭

[spark cradle]

most people complete training at around 30, but you do get paid 60-80k during residency. Many of my classmates are nontraditional and have either a phd or a JD already. I am considered young in medicine despite my age, which I think is a cultural positive- you are always improving, and there is no chance of stagnation as the field evolves. Physicians have a responsibility to be on the cutting edge as new research comes out. Medicine has also redefined what young and old means in general to me- early heart disease, for example, comes in your 50s. When I see people in my generation in clinic, I feel like I'm still on pediatrics! All of this to say- life is long, and I'm a zoomer just like you. Don't worry about age, and just enjoy life. There's no point racing towards the finish, especially when it's so far away.

[calm wind]

Tysm!!

[echo flame]

thank you so much

do you have to explain why you took a gap year like write an essay?

[spark cradle]

I think there might have been an essay for that in the secondary apps (from specific schools after primary app). If there was, it was extremely short and easily filled in.

you literally just write what you've been doing or plan to do for your gap year. Even if you're just taking a break, you just say you're traveling/volunteering/whatever

[low finch]

ALMOST DONE