indigo island
So, I’m trying to build up on my general city planning knowledge before I buy CS2, and one of the things that I really want to focus on reasearching about before I buy it is transit, how it works, and how it could be utilized efficiently in cities.
What I’m curious about is how the transit feasability studies that “birth” the transit lines work, and how planners determine which type of line and which type of line alignment is best for the city’s needs.
<@&787910105185124392>
rigid axle
@merry hollow may be well suited for this answer. If you want the land use side of the answer I can help with that
Let me see which other transit planners we have because I know we have a lot
indigo island
<@&787910105185124392>
of course there’s the classic “put a BRT/tram/rail line on a main road” strategy, lol
spare vault
In my experience working in transit on the private sector side it is usually a combination of public input and census based analysis + land use analysis to determine transit propensity. From there you can kind of get a good idea of where people want to go, how likely an area is going to use transit, what is the most cost effective alignment, ect. As well as understanding what financial limitations are + any Federal funding limitations (specifically for transit that is seeking to link rural-urban since they both have different funding sources).
Then from there you’d present the client with a few options and there’d be input from committees, stakeholders, the public. Note, I can’t really speak to the engineering side of things as I only am familiar with the planning process.
indigo island
weird question: how do you guys deal with NIMBYs during the planning process?
rigid axle
~~weird question: how do you guys deal with NIMBYs during the planning process?~...
You have to let them speak their peace (at least in the US) because otherwise they say we are censoring them. The best option you have as a planner is to listen to the concerns and try to pull the nuggets of real concerns and issues and then address those. Of course you tend to have to separate a lot of class, racial, ethnic, political, and religious discrimination from comments which makes the task even harder to do.
rigid axle
In my experience working in transit on the private sector side it is usually a c...
I would also add that we need to keep designated disadvantaged communities in mind as well as there tends to be a lot of grant money for improvements within these communities, especially linking them to the broader area.
merry hollow
I agree with @spare vault and @rigid axle. We start with technical studies that use data and analysis to determine options for mode, route, and station locations. Then we develop an evaluation methodology to screen those down further. This includes stakeholder engagement.
proper wind
In the US, as well as many other parts of the world, the government mandates hearings where information about a project needs to be made available to the public. In the US, this is required for both the environmental impact statement or assessment, as well as throughout the planning process. During this time, clear and accessible information about the impacts of a transit project is crucial.
It's important that planning agencies both hold larger information sessions, where serious questions and concerns about the project can be taken into account, as well as mobile outreach to inform people who may not have the ability to go to an information session
narrow vector
I think the latter point is a really important one! In the Netherlands we have a new law (since the beginning of this year) which forces people with plans to go and do outreach before applying for a permit/other with the idea that this'll stop a lot of problems later on in the process
And, frankly, I regularly only find out that permits have been handed out past the deadline for appeal/giving input. I get you'd be annoyed if you found out that late and there's actual problems with a plan
indigo island
I agree with <@159403690384424960> and <@693988397416579144>. We start with tech...
how are those studies/surveys done?
merry hollow
how are those studies/surveys done?
Mostly with GIS analysis and spreadsheets. Field work is often involved, too. Lots of data collection and processing.
indigo island
how do you determine what MODE is best for the line after you determine the alignment though?
(e.g. reasons why you would go with conventional rail/heavy rail instead of light rail, a BRT route instead of a tram line, etc.)
soft hedge
Lots of studies and analyses.
Route planning is something, i’m sure they have their own systems.
But transit investments (generally in the NA context) aren’t money makers, but cities make that money back through other means.
For example, my Region just spent hundreds of millions of dollars on an LRT line
Which opened up the opportunity for economic development - if you look at a map of my Region how, there’s a reason why developers are purchasing up all the land in these MTSA areas
My transit planning prof flat out said it was more as an economic development catalyst compared to a transit investment as its physical infrastructure that will likely always be there
Not many people justify building density by a bus route because it can easily change, but that tram route is stuck there
BRT’s are basically as effective as a tram and cost a lot less money - but you still inevitably deal with traffic issues even if there are designated lanes.
Conventional rail is really for inter-regional transportation.
It’s not feasible to run a locomotive around the city - they’re loud, cost a boat load to operate, and have certain setback requirements associated with them for safety.
Metrolinx’s GO Train is a good example - it’s good for connecting cities to cities, but not inner-city
indigo island
Conventional rail is really for inter-regional transportation.
I meant to say heavy metro rail instead, lol
soft hedge
The general trend noawadays is moving toward BRT and LRTs for inter-city transit.
The City of Charlotte, NC, has a really interesting case for its LRT
Here's another good example of the relationship between density and trams
In no way am I a transit planning expert, but this should help give some insight
proper wind
how do you determine what MODE is best for the line after you determine the alig...
That's a lot of work, especially when it's a new line. Take a look at the Interborough Express in New York for example
this site also shows all of the public planning and feasibility documents, as well as documents debating each model available
This is a screenshot from the feasibility study, which went over the options considered
They went with Light Rail, because there's a small at grade segment
which I still think was a mistake... the reasoning was they didn't want to tunnel under a cemetery, and the existing tunnel under the cemetery had too thin of a system gauge for the state's existing heavy rail stock. If a train got stuck, there wouldn't be enough clearance for an emergency exit. this is also a shared corridor with freight, so most metro vehicles aren't allowed on it unless they made the line single-track in the tunnel
that being said, they have new metro vehicles coming in soon that are FRA compliant for legacy rail systems
also, I should note that DMUs and people movers were instantly eliminated in the feasibility study
I wanted them to use conventional heavy rail because it can connect to existing lines
indigo island
I wanted them to use conventional heavy rail because it can connect to existing ...
yeah
i was literally praying that they would choose heavy rail during the early part of the feasibility study
indigo island
I meant to say heavy metro rail instead, lol
still waiting for an answer ^^ @soft hedge