#Risk to Earn – Feedback & Survey

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spiral viper
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Rangers — we’re exploring a new Risk to Earn mode and we want your input before anything gets locked.

Step 1: Fill out the survey (takes ~3–5 minutes)
https://link.illuvium.io/risk2earnfeedback

What the survey covers

  • Your playstyle (Arena / Overworld / collector / casual)
  • How you feel about asset risk (including permadeath)
  • Rewards preference (Illuvials vs fiat/USDC vs mixed)
  • Entry fees vs asset-only risk
  • XP burn / using duplicates as sinks
  • Match length + reward structure (winner-take-all vs top placements)

Step 2: Use this thread for additional feedback
After you submit the form, drop anything extra here:

  • Your “must have” for this mode to be fun
  • Biggest concerns (fairness, whales, pay-to-win, etc.)
  • Ideas for rules, caps, protections, or formats
  • Anything we didn’t ask but you think matters

Be brutally honest — even if your answer is “I wouldn’t play this.” That’s useful signal.

Google Docs
Illuvium Risk-to-Earn Deathmatch - Player Feedback Survey

We are exploring a new Risk-to-Earn Deathmatch mode in Illuvium. This survey is to understand what you would actually want to play, and what feels fun vs extractive. Your answers will directly shape the design before we lock the MVP.

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Risk to Earn – Feedback & Survey

brittle burrow
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How many players per game?

image.png
gray torrent
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Please pivot from this terrible idea and incorporate risk to earn in a real way by allowing poker style wagering on arena games... this is terrible slot machine trash.
Sorry... i feel strongly about it... and it boggles my mind why this instead of something that would draw real interest and new players

brittle burrow
gray torrent
brittle burrow
gray torrent
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clearly i think it's a terrible idea... so prob wanna stay clear of my negativity on the topic... I'm gonna doom it with my baditude everytime. Will watch it play out... and pray to heavenly father.

undone sundial
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I'm not actually a fan of risk to earn. But if I was to play it I think I'd want something like this:

Blind Ascendant – Risk-to-Earn Mode Idea

Core loop (rough draft)

Pay an entry fee

You select up to 10 Illuvials (mastery point cap)

Once placed, the illuvials position is locked permanently

You’re then matched against another players at random with no knowledge of what they're playing or their illuvial position.

The round starts, the enemy team is revealed and it plays out automatically

Win and you earn their fee. Lose and the run ends with your earnings going to the other player.

Every round is a new opponent.

You can't cash out after every win

Cash-out points are fixed at 3 round intervals.

At each checkpoint you can lock in winnings and continue with just your fee at risk.

Lose before reaching a checkpoint and the entire run is lost earnings included.

severe heart
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Desperation mode. USDC in, ILV paid out. Anything that gets a bid is a win at this stage. Seriously, why not fulfill the original promo with Illuvial cock fighting and pit wagering…not much left to lose.

undone sundial
brittle burrow
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I could see the last illuvial standing getting all the xp from burnt illuvials and instantly power up from lvl 60 to lvl 80

undone sundial
brittle burrow
# undone sundial Maybe, I'm not convinced though. I think some version of 1v1 ascendant would be ...

If we want to onboard gambling whales who want to win with 0 skill I don't think that it will work, when they talk about risk to earn I hear "We are giving a reason to millionaire whales to come and gamble away millions of $ into the ecosystem"
I'd probably not play it if there is 0 skill expression myself, probably if there is a little like team composition and power-ups between rounds but overall the target audience isn't really this community imo

unkempt scroll
severe heart
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@spiral viper let me state thanks for asking the right question. I have stated since E9 this is the only viable economic path and why degens got involved initially. If the team wants to be receiving a paycheck in 2027 then I would freeze all the other rabbit chasing and turn this art studio (no basis to call it a gaming studio) into a backyard digital cockfighting pit. In six months, it would generate more free cashflow than the last six years of amatuer enthuasists wondering in the wilderness and changing the goal posts every 6-12 months. The frank fact is past performance is the best predictor of future performance. What is left of the Dev team we have six years of track record...and it lead to yesterday's AMA. <@&814435151307866142>

wooden shuttle
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  • arena

  • Perma death during play, especially assets you compete with, hell no. It's a toxic mechanic.

  • both options super boring for rewards

  • both entry fees and chosen asset to be at risk are good options

  • XP burn an absolute must have

  • this should definitely be Ascendant 1v1 for quick matches. Gauntlet is boring as hell for most people. Reward can be entry fee + whatever asset each player puts at "risk"

covert summit
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I am mostly interested in playing Illuvium for the Collecting and building a good team, to use it in Arena and MMO, and like the competition the Arena modes can offer. (hoping we will get Survival and Ascendant mode again some day).

The game already have a lot of Risk included, you spend $$ to try to find the good illuvials, very often you go to OW runs and return with nothing useful, other than some xp and shards/consumables, and you risk your Illuvials when trying to fuse a good one (failed way more times than getting a good one, and it also cost $$ to "gamble" with the fuse)... So I guess the "risk to earn" is already a very integrated part of the games eco system, in form of the "pack opening" concept. But I am still not 100% sure how I personally feel if this mode is more "pure gambling" for $$, (like in a Casino, where you place a bet to try to win the big price), But I guess it could fit with some of the player profiles we already have and can potentially attract new people to the eco system as well, and as long as it can generate revenue, and doesn't cross any boundaries that could cause Illuvium to be seen as a pure gambling game, I think the concept is fine.

The only reservation I got is the timing... and if it's the right thing to focus on right now. There is a big focus on building MMO, and we have things that have been put on pause that would also improve the game. (like adding Arena ascendant/survival game modes, make a few update to ILZ, improve skins and marked place, Illuvial Collection, the mobile arena version, ect.) I don't know how much effort there is in building this, and the "trolls" can easily see this as "yet another shift in direction" from the team, and a desperate attempt to squeeze more money out of people.

undone sundial
covert summit
gusty yew
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honestly.. not a fan of this game concept (im personally not a fan of a game i have no control over). If i wanted to play slot machines id go the pub.
if efforts were going to be put toward another mini game id like to see something where you have control. Maybe something like having to defend a waves of illuvials attacking you. The higher number of waves survived the more reward. similar to tower defense/ zombies

undone sundial
severe heart
rigid anvil
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@spiral viper I think we need to see the demo to give feedback 😁

rigid anvil
spiral viper
rigid anvil
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Time to send Kieran a dm and politely ask for demo to show it off 😁

spiral viper
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Eh I go above I asked Andrei

rigid anvil
brittle burrow
rigid anvil
spiral viper
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we already have a slot machine as @gusty ember said and i agree which is somewhat beyond

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and even ADRs

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i dont remember what the game was but the closest thing that reminded me of it was that game simulation the ppl made of the 100 men vs a gorilla idea

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thats how i imagine this game and that might be fun

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but i havent seen it

rigid anvil
spiral viper
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yeah i mean i dont sell illuvitars either so i get it

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but still if you got a Super Rare one

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you would

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hence the slot machine part, you "hit the jackpot"

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and would sell it

undone sundial
rigid anvil
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I would never sell my Ophisto or my Holo Sear with t5 background

spiral viper
rigid anvil
brittle burrow
# rigid anvil Ummmm if the few impactful decisions were very simple to understand kinda like a...

Since we want to attract degen whales with this game I think that skill expression shouldn't be high, I would personally need a bit of skill expression otherwise I won't play knowing that it cannot be positive value

I would be happy if team composition had a small impact: enough to make a competitive player think they can have an edge but not enough so that a whale gets beaten by a way worse comp and feel scammed

It's hard to give a precise number but something like +5 to +10% ev with perfect choices VS people who don't know what they are doing assuming equal board strength

Power ups sound fun but it would be hard to balance them enough to maintain low skill expression imo

spiral viper
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1 each

rigid anvil
brittle burrow
spiral viper
undone sundial
spiral viper
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oh shoot i sent the btc to the eth address and its gone forever

brittle burrow
spiral viper
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oops

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the 3 kings of illuvium

rigid anvil
spiral viper
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ok sorry ive derailed

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continue

rigid anvil
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Let continue after demo

undone sundial
rigid anvil
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You win 10 open mouth emojis

undone sundial
brittle burrow
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The ideal would be to find tricks that give the illusion of agency while you actually have very low impact on the outcome

rigid anvil
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To be serious for a bit I think it would be cool if the Illuvial you use has to go into "hybernation" if you lose for a time period to heal but you can pay fuel to make it heal quicker.

undone sundial
spiral viper
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Like horse racing for kukkas

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Shoot we could do any Illuvial

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Make a track

undone sundial
spiral viper
undone sundial
spiral viper
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@severe heart is digital horse racing good enough

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But with illuvials

gusty yew
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"Illuvirace" be the illuvial and race in an obstacle course in 1 of the overworld maps

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id bet on that

unkempt scroll
undone sundial
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I really hope an advance alien race isn't observing us. What must they think of us if they are 😅

spiral viper
unkempt scroll
covert summit
severe heart
severe heart
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@spiral viper is on to something...chart of the day. ILV's TAM could go from about $1,000/week to $$$,$$$ with the strategic shift back to what they sold OGs originally. Combine sport w/ crypto in the "world of pure imagination"

CleanShot_2025-12-20_at_06.08.422x.png
undone sundial
brittle burrow
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The more I think about it the more I'm excited for the future of Illuvium, this might be product market fit, this is honestly the most bullish idea that I've heard in a long time

I'm 100% behind it, this easy to develop product could turn Illuvium into a huge success

frank dirge
gray torrent
# frank dirge doubling down on arena when it has failed to aquire users again and again, even ...

I appreciate the thought.

IPL was a tournament for pros

ongoing sit n go buy-in $5-$10-$25-$100 paid to the top 3 immediately is not for pros... it's for everyone. The problem isn't user acquisition... I'm sure ppl would want to play it. The problem is it falls under gambling regulation. That's why Illuvium is treading lightly here with this silly burn idea... it keeps thei nose clean in terms of regulation.

Also, in terms of development... it would take literally a week to incorporate sit n go style buy-in... the infra is already there for api and backend. Dev time isnt the problem, it's regulation.

frank dirge
# gray torrent I appreciate the thought. IPL was a tournament for pros ongoing sit n go buy-i...

I can’t see anyone other than top or pro players being interested in a buy-in Arena tournament or match.

Casuals would just get milked by experienced players. Maybe this could work with a huge player base and strict smurf rules, where you can be sure to play only against others at your skill level.

I just don’t see gambling + Arena being much of a success for us.
Specially after all that we have tried around arena and didn't work: Play2Earn, Play2Airdrop, Compete2Earn, etc..

But I can definitely see big potential in gambling where the entry ticket is an already owned Illuvial. This directly targets our 44k unique Illuvial holders, which is a great target audience.

gray torrent
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Another version of SnG mode using daily finite, non-transferable entries (not money or assets) could preserve real competitive pressure while staying fully outside gambling regulation. Leaderboards + performance-based rewards... but then it's not as immediate or satisfying... but would pass regulation scrutiny.

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either way... it's a tricky line to navigate. I've started looking into is seriously.

if illuvium wants to go down the R2E they will have to geo block regions that don't allow it. And they will have to deal with reg issues in their host country.

brittle burrow
gray torrent
undone sundial
# frank dirge doubling down on arena when it has failed to aquire users again and again, even ...

That's a shallow read on the situation imo. Gauntlet didn't fail. Illuvium built an ownership driven competitive game and then made it F2P killing the entire incentive structure.
Players learned not to care about their collection or to buy into the ecosystem. Once that happens, no amount of prize money, rewards or esports fixes onboarding

Ranked gauntlet was a terrible idea from the start. It should never have existed. And though it's great to see it finally gone I fear the damage it's done will take a long time to fix.

unkempt scroll
brittle burrow
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The death animation needs to be heartbreakingly permanent

Example:

The Illuvial shatters into digital shards, lets out a final cry, and the NFT burns on-chain instantly, the screen shakes etc

unkempt scroll
undone sundial
unkempt scroll
final cargo
fringe flax
# frank dirge doubling down on arena when it has failed to aquire users again and again, even ...

I think there are a lot of reasons why arena did not attract as many new players as we all hoped for. Before listing my points, I just want to state that I am aware that the Arena Team is quite small and I really appreciate their work. Also the communications with @unkempt heron helped a lot to keep us all in the loop. The small team size is probably one of the main reasons a lot of the problems could not be addressed in a timely manner during the first season.

  1. Bugs. Despite all the efforts by the team, there were still some critical bugs during the first IPL season. People experiencing disconnects, lags, etc. Sure as a Veteran you could avoid some of these e.g. by restarting your game after each match but this is nothing a new player can know. Also if you reconnect it never works on the first try and you need to do it a second time. Sure for me it feels "normal", but for someone new this could be a huge turn off. Especially if you do expect high quality.
  2. Matchmaking. Throughout the season we never had a decent matchmaking. New players were being thrown into lobbies with top 10 players. I am not sure how new players feel about the current bot games.
  3. Hotfixes. We basically never saw hotfixes for absolutely broken units/comps/items. There were times something was obviously so broken that if this would have happened in e.g. TFT, Reddit would be burning and Riot would fix it on the same day.
  4. Hidden Patch Notes. We are getting better on that end, but there were patches where the patch notes did not reflect important changes at all.
  5. Hidden mechanics. If you do not follow discord, it is very hard to know essential mechanics as "how/when should you actually open a composite crate"
  6. Streamers. We did not invite/pay big TFT streamers for the big tournaments.
    In general, I don't think it worked out as we had all hoped, focusing our main resources on developing the MMO while also organizing an e-sports league for Arena.
fringe flax
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If we want to implement a “risk to earn” structure with betting, I believe a few things are necessary.

  1. We need to differentiate between players and gamblers. It may well cost a few dollars to participate in a “game,” and you definitely need your own Illuvials, but it should also be possible to simply bet on someone else. In most sports betting, people don't participate themselves, but choose a team.
  2. It should definitely involve the stats/experience of Illuvials and at least a bit of skill. It's similar to any other sports bet. I may have done my homework, know the collection of @brittle burrow, and watched his previous rounds. I think that gives me an edge over the others and allows me to make a better decision. In reality, there is enough randomness that he is maybe more likely to win, but it's not guaranteed. Depending on past performance and the stats of the Illuvials, the possible winnings should be based on that. On typical betting sites, the odds are also based on the teams playing against each other.
  3. There should be some kind of variance. Depending on the game we should avoid letting players use the same Illuvials 100% of the time. Sure, everyone would like to see the "star Illuvials", but maybe some Illuvials got hurt during the last round, so they need to recover during the next round.
  4. I dislike the idea of just being a "slot machine" mode
  5. In general I think we can give more detailed feedback as soon as we see some video footage
gray torrent
gray torrent
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Literally... hire a marketing firm

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anyhow.. off topic

verbal pasture
# fringe flax If we want to implement a “risk to earn” structure with betting, I believe a few...

I think this contradicts one of the main purposes of this game mode though, which is to offer a burning mechanism for our low to mid stats Illuvials that we have so many of. So the benefit of entering with good Illuvials cannot be too big, and IMO it should not factor in stats at all. In that case I'd rather boost through powerups etc.
I dont know if or how, but to avoid too big of an advantage for great Illuvials vs bad ones, there could be brackets they enter. E.g TPI 0-32, 33-65 and 66-100.
It's not that I'm 100 % against stats having meaning in this mode, just cant see how it should work. Lets say permadeath is a thing here, and the stats + levels only matter a tiny bit. There is no chance in hell thats a good enough advantage for me to risk a very good Illuvial. On the other side, if stats and levels matters too much, the chance of winning with your scrappy Illuvials will become almost non-existant, which would then contradict on of the main purposes, which is to offer a burning mechanism that gives you something meaningful in return.

covert summit
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That "Casino Horse track machine" concept had me thinking, and it could be made into something like this ...
Instead of 8 Illuvials racing on a track it could also be a battle between 8 Illuvial. (although I think it would be super cool to race though one of the regions, I guess the battle is easier to make, and can also be fun to watch... but the outcome would be random anyway).

To enter the battle.. you place an Illuvial + the entry fee.. if you win you win the "pot" minus "house fee".. but get a higher % of the pot if you place a higher Tier Illuvial.
You keep your Illuvial if you win, plus get a random from the remaining 7, and the remaining 6 Illuvials gets burned.

Could make 3 different “modes”
1 - 1$ entry fee plus a S1 Illuvial
2 - 10$ entry fee plus S2 Illuvial
3 - 50$ entry fee plus S3 Illuvial
(Fees are just examples)

You would obviously only use the low TPI Illivials in this way, but I think that is also ok.
But one problem is still that it's very likely considered pure gambling. but I am not quite sure how to avoid that.

brittle burrow
unkempt scroll
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Risk to earn is just a simulation, theres no need of dev. People will bot it anyway.

brittle burrow
unkempt scroll
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the server calculate on the background

brittle burrow
unkempt scroll
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maybe for a day

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Most will get bored and skip to result

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Unless it's waifu fighting in a mud, people wont be bothered

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the process doesnt give dopamine, it's fireworks when u win

brittle burrow
unkempt scroll
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it has to be a very short "spin"

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theres a reason why Gacha/lootbox has skip animation button

brittle burrow
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I'm not sure how much people like AIs around here but I find Gemini 3.0 pro really good so I'm going to spam it whenever I can now

undone sundial
unkempt scroll
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i tried to play WoW again and it was just too slow

fringe flax
# verbal pasture I think this contradicts one of the main purposes of this game mode though, whic...

I really think it highly depends on how we want to design the game mode. There is a huge difference between the players also being the gamblers or if we see them as separate groups. If it ends up being a gambling mode for players I will probably not engage with it anyways. I have absolutely no interest in those kind of modes. However, if it is a more skill based and fast mode with entry fees, people being able vote on players, maybe even spent money to see a certain illuvial compete etc. I am all for it. You could also burn X amount of Illuvials before each match to get like a stat boost, start with an augment etc. So you would not compete with your "scrappy" Illuvials but use them for advantages during the next game. The game mode itself could still be super simple, e.g. place 3 Illuvials in a battle royal mode and afterwards everything happens automatically. The positioning, the selection of the Illvuials and maybe which Illuvials you brun beforehand could be the skill expression

frank dirge
verbal pasture
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I agree, it all depends how it’s structured. Curious to see if/how it will be built. It’s either gonna be a huge hit or a huge flop, nothing inbetween, its either or, do or die.

brittle burrow
# fringe flax I really think it highly depends on how we want to design the game mode. There i...

How much skill expression are you talking about?

I suggested 5-10% expected value when playing perfectly VS someone who has no clue, assuming similar overall board strength
In other words around 52.5% to 55% winrate for the best players (without house egde)

It would be enough for gamers to justify playing it and not high to the point where new whales leave disgusted after the 1st game

Apparently gambling whales like when there is a bit of skill as well

covert summit
# frank dirge You could have Stage 1, 2, and 3 tournaments, so my Atlas would at most only fig...

A bit similar to what I was also trying to suggest here... #1451342958379925624 message
But maybe you choose 1 Illuvial you will "gamble" and add 2-4 more Illuvuals to create a small team to fight, so your "skill expression" is combining the team for the best synergies.

3 different stages... and you winning depends on the strength of Illuvial you choose to "gamble" with. (Higher the Tier "risk" = higher the reward) 😁

definitely makes sense to have some sort of different tournament tiers with different entry fees 🙂

fringe flax
final cargo
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My mind went more to augment like buffs which you pick, preferably ones that can be integrated for the mmo and focus on high variance ones

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But setting up synergies can work as a prelude to mmo group synergies as well

idle jackal
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My thoughts:

  1. Make the battle royale mode work on mobile from the start
  2. Copy Arena's game lobby mechanic and allow anyone to setup a public or private battle royale game lobby with the settings they desire (i.e. entry fee, burn/retain illuvials, # of players, etc.)
  3. Show all public game lobbies so anyone can jump in
  4. Potential Settings for a Battle Royale game lobby:
    -Number of players
    -Stage/tier of illuvials
    -Burn/retain
    -Entry fee
    -Payout (top 1, 3, 10, etc.)
    -Private/public lobby
    -Round configuration, like Round 1 - 100, Round 2 - top 50, Final Round - top 10 or just a single round with winner
    -Region/board selection
    -Random augment applied to illuvials
    -Toggle for an NPC round, first round is all vs. NPCs which eliminates some players
  5. Partner with various influencers/projects to sponsor regular battle royale events
dry marsh
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I see this more as a gimmick than an actual game I'd play. Maybe it would be good for streamers who like to draw winners with that marble game, except you'd do this illuvial deathmatch instead.

The host should be able to customize parameters. It could be as low stakes as a completely random, free entry game mode, or as high stakes/high reward as complete illuvial burn, winner takes all, etc

brittle burrow
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If it's a battle royale we should have an end game screen showing how long our last standing illuvial survived with a rank like #3 for being in the last 3 illuvials standing

rigid anvil
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Still haven't seen the demo???

frozen quarry
undone sundial
frozen quarry
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I dont quite see How a free for all iluvial brawl would work but maybe I pack vision surely they must be some sort of restrictions on who can fight who

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Maybe it should be “ Class warfare”

undone sundial
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It'll basically be just fighters 🤷‍♂️

frozen quarry
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I could see it working if it included augmentation to the iluvials that wernt visable to the openents

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happy xmas to all im fed and nearly ready for bed a few more kareoke song and that will be me for the night ....goodnight rangers

rigid anvil
brittle burrow
rigid anvil
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Maybe they are making it a bit better before showing us? This is the only reason I can think why they haven't shown us yet

unkempt scroll
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What if we call it gambling instead of risk to earn

rigid anvil
languid glen
rigid anvil
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Wonder if we can make it mobile, I don't think degens are gonna download epic on their PC to degen gamble

full torrent
gray torrent
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no one other than people aready in the project is going to care about this... it's a waste of resources and dev time

brittle burrow
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This idea increases the expected success in case of an altseason by a lot

  • The MMO will likely be somewhere between bad to decent and probably won't compete VS Web2 MMOs even if they are the only one in the creature capture genre
  • Gauntlet is too complex to attract a wide audience, it's just an illuvial use case/retention tool for those who enter the ecosystem and I doubt that Ascendent will change that unless they improve it a lot
  • The R2E has a shot at targeting Web3 degens by giving them a brand new digital cock fighting gambling product, potentially bringing in millions of revenues while driving speculation

Without the R2E we could still ride an altseason if crypto gaming speculation comes back carried by Kieran's hype building skills and the AAA IP but our expected success would be significantly lower

I think that even if there is only 10% chance that this product would succeed, it would still increase the expected success compared to if we just focus on the MMO

This is low risk because having 3 devs on it doesn't lower our expected success by a big margin if we consider that it would mainly depend on speculation about a future product

Low risk, high reward move

frank dirge
gray torrent
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go build it... prove me wrong

unkempt scroll
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the only way those 44k holders will come back is if the prize pool is $5m

unkempt scroll
undone sundial
# brittle burrow This idea increases the expected success in case of an altseason by a lot - The...

R2E feels less like a well thought out strategy and more like the latest trendy distraction in a long pattern of pivots.
Over the years Illuvium has repeatedly shifted focus in search of quick fixes. Each pivot resets momentum, fragments the player base, and erodes confidence that there is a stable core vision being executed.
At some point this stops looking like healthy experimentation and starts looking like an inability to commit long enough for any direction to compound.
Illuvium didn’t need an MMO, a TFT-style game, Land, Beyond or this gambling mode. It needed to commit to its original vision and execute it with conviction.
Ask someone outside this community what Illuvium actually is and you’ll get wildly different answers. That confusion isn’t accidental. It’s the byproduct of years of shifting identity.

So sure, R2E might be a good addition. But that's irrelevant imo, it's the yet another addition to this bloated project that'll hurt it's reputation. This constant searching for that silver bullet to bring this project to the promise land needs to end.

gray torrent
wooden shuttle
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Everyone is right by saying we don't need this crap at all.

The very fact we are a video game project, and we are trying so desperately to attempt to attract "degens" from a miraculous "altcoin season" in order to save us, makes me want to throw up.

Implement these, sprinkle a burning tech system on top, and we will be good to go on several fronts, we don't need that degen crap

  1. https://discord.com/channels/760344898200666112/1432594082567422023
  2. https://discord.com/channels/760344898200666112/1436815138639446126
  3. https://discord.com/channels/760344898200666112/1452912413207691368

Try to visualize everything working together. We have a clean win con ahead through collecting illuvials and utilizing them throughout our different games to their maximum extent. Following the original vision. We don't need cheap gimmicks like this, we need to commit to finishing the loop, for once.

wooden shuttle
wooden shuttle
# brittle burrow This idea increases the expected success in case of an altseason by a lot - The...

We should have thought about how the MMO will be, and how long it will take to deliver something playable, I don't know, maybe before we start with it?

There are like 5 things to build with a much higher prio than this, that can improve the MMOs and projects survival. This will do nothing.

Kieran hyping skills aren't working since 2022. You need to actually deliver something after 5 years. It might be a good idea for us to humble ourselves on that front

undone sundial
# wooden shuttle We should have thought about how the MMO will be, and how long it will take to d...

IIlluvium is in serious hype debt rn.

Hype isn’t free. It’s borrowed belief from the future. Every announcement, teaser, or “vision update” is essentially taking sentiment on credit with the promise that delivery will pay it back later.

Early on, Illuvium took out a lot of that credit. The problem is that much of it was priced far too optimistically, and the payoff either came late, came diluted, or never really came at all.

Now illuvium couldn't even buy attention if it wanted. It has a terrible hype credit score with the web3 community.

unkempt scroll
#

it will be easier if the studio start a new IP

undone sundial
#

That reminds me, I've got some damp on my kitchen wall I need to paper over

wooden shuttle
#

It's also usually better to approach things from a humble perspective and let the product do the hype for you organically. If we hype and under deliver the disappointment is much bigger. It only gets you so far. Now it's time to shine

unkempt scroll
rigid anvil
#

Kieran mentioned this idea would not be much dev work at all. To me this is just something to do and possibly earn a little money while the MMO gets built.

wooden shuttle
#

This might be a better idea for MMO PvP, even if buggy. You bet an illuvial that meets certain criteria and winner gets it. If you will be make these "degens" play Gauntlet, then the plan is doomed

undone sundial
rigid anvil
#

If they already have a working demo then the whole battle part is already built,I think the only part that would need to be built is the front end wager and UI/UX stuff. I agree with most of what you have said I guess I just trust Kieran and the team when they say this wouldn't take away any resources from the MMO.

rigid anvil
wooden shuttle
undone sundial
# rigid anvil Why don't you think Illuvium needs the MMO? And what would Illuviums original v...

All OW really needed was fun and engaging combat. Sanctum was to be the community hub. And we were to battle other rangers 1v1 in ascendant. That was the initial vision if I remember right and it was solid but more importantly easily achievable

Do you genuinely believe given all we know from the past 4 years that it's likely illuvium can build a quality MMO in the time it has left? Not just and MMO but chain migration, arena mobile, Beyond, IZ, website, Dex, localisation ect. All with a small team with limited to no experience of building an MMO as I understand?

I admire the ambition but no I'm not confident it can be done. But I still hope they prove me wrong because I don't want to see this project fail. I love the IP

rigid anvil
rigid anvil
wooden shuttle
unkempt scroll
#

web3 is a place for dev who dont know what they are doing, building a product which no one is using, while getting critized by investors who dont know what they are talking about.

brittle burrow
# undone sundial All OW really needed was fun and engaging combat. Sanctum was to be the communit...

I'm confused as to why you're criticizing the small pivot towards degens considering that you don't even believe in the MMO, what's the most likely path to Illuvium's success in case of a 2026 altseason in your opinion?

I get that you don't like the constant pivots, I personally think that they were interesting ideas that have not been rewarded and only seeing them through the lens of their result is being result oriented

brittle burrow
unkempt scroll
#

imo developing MMO is important to keep the dream alive, that the studio is working on the next big thing until it can raise money.

#

It is irrelevant for the MMO to bring significant revenue, altho it would be a nice bonus

fringe flax
# undone sundial R2E feels less like a well thought out strategy and more like the latest trendy ...

In my opinion IZ should have always been the game creating most revenue. Mobile Games create the most revenue with the least amount of dev work. Just look at games likes clash of clans. The base game of IZ is solid, it just lacks daily tasks, endgame and engagement with other players. At the beginning of IZ pretty much everyone bought at least 1 worker instantly. It had/has so much potential but instead on focusing on what we have, we always shift our focus. Sure if this mode takes 1 month for 1-3 developers, we can try it. But keep in my mind we could e.g. implement training gyms for IZ in the same time

prisma pebble
undone sundial
undone sundial
wooden shuttle
wooden shuttle
brittle burrow
# wooden shuttle If the likeliness of the MMO bringing any revenue in 2026 is low to none, then w...

I think that the pivot to the MMO is more driven by the potential hype and Web3 speculation it could generate than the revenues, there is even a scenario where speculation comes first bringing in players that give revenues
In other worlds: speculation could precede revenues so optimize for speculation

That's a good pivot from an altseason maxxing perspective, besides that it would be the only game in the MMO creature capture niche and it would help getting emotionally attached to our illuvials more than other genres so it makes sense if you assume that you don't need a great game to have success

Targeting degens sounds completely coherent considering that Web3 is full of them and that memecoins were the best performing assets during the "mini altseasons" we've had in 2024

Having video game assets puts Illuvium in a spot where they have an advantage over other gambling projects: they are the only ones who can easily make a cockfighting game with AAA gaming assets, interoperability even increases the value of these creatures

undone sundial
#

Saying Illuvium will “attract degens” is like creating a new TikTok account and announcing “I’m about to make a viral video that'll makes me millions.”
Virality isn’t a decision. Neither is degen attention.
Degens don’t get targeted, marketed to, or summoned. They show up after a simple, legible loop proves there’s asymmetric upside and visible winners.
If the conditions exist, they might arrive on their own. If they don’t, no amount of narrative framing from illuvium will make it happen.

wooden shuttle
# brittle burrow I think that the pivot to the MMO is more driven by the potential hype and Web3 ...

All of the reasons you mentioned are why it's not a good idea to pivot to an MMO. Pivoting to an MMO as you are downsizing your team for runway reasons is acoustic. Having to explain why, again, is frustrating. It should be obvious to everyone, but it isn't for some reason.

How about sticking to a long term vision? Building the necessary steps one by one? Instead of leaving everything half assed and jumping from one thing to the other chasing "hype" instead of a polished product.

In the current case we have several better options to trigger revenue to make up for this MMO disaster than trying to bring further degradation and gambling to it. Cockfighting smh

brittle burrow
brittle burrow
wooden shuttle
brittle burrow
# wooden shuttle So you are telling me to you it sounds good yoloing the entire future of a 100m+...

That's exactly what I'm telling you, I don't think that Illuvium surviving until 2028 is likely without an altseason anyways so might as well optimize for the only interesting outcome

It's not like putting 3 devs on this R2E will change the MMO much

I get that you want fun, I'm a customer so I want quality as well but if there are decisions that increase the value of my investment to the detriment of mid term MMO quality, then I'm fine with that and I want to encourage it

I'm an investor 1st, customer 2nd

Even if I were a customer 1st, I'd like Illuvium to have success so that they can last long and the most likely path to high success is optimizing for speculation with the MMO and the R2E (The R2E could also generate high revenues)

If you want quality, then an altseason that we ride correctly would extend the runway and give years of quality improvement

wooden shuttle
brittle burrow
# wooden shuttle Quality and certain level of polish could be achieved through already existing p...

Revamping the OW into an MMO could be seen as improving an already existing product

But let's assume that they stop working on the MMO and the R2E in order to focus on ILVZ and the arena games: Gauntlet, Ascendant and Survival

December 2026, how successful are we? How much of our success comes from altseason speculation and how much comes from revenues thanks to higher quality products?

December 2027, is Illuvium still alive?

My assumption is that every decision made right now is a risky bet, there is no safe bet, just high expected value bets and lower ones

wooden shuttle
# brittle burrow Revamping the OW into an MMO could be seen as improving an already existing prod...

Now that we are put in this rat hole, there are not many options it's true. All of these products should have been focused instead of the MMO. If revenue was a concern (it damn well should be), we should have developed Zero into a stand alone game, not the MMO (I opened a thread about this as soon as the MMO was announced).

Right now I'd say our best bet is adding more utility into the illuvials and get revenue through that. It's our best product by far

brittle burrow
wooden shuttle
#

I myself am a web3 degen, part of the project since 2021, and gaming has always been a hobby of mine and always will be. I'm the target audience. And looking at the MMO leaks, it generates 0 hype for me, for several reasons

#

There is a good way out, but for some reason it's looked down upon on executive level. It's the story of last 4 years - good ideas get turned down, and acoustic degen ideas that are known are not going to work are given one try after another. Because someone said so or some other project did it. To the point our original identity became completely lost

ionic echo
#

I'd only play this if I get something back for even losing Illuvials.

If Illuvials die (even low-value or “trash” ones) at least generate some form of energy or XP, that would help offset the investment, because the worst outcome for me is risking Illuvials that took time and money to acquire, only to have them completely burned with no return.

My wish would be if you win, you earn Illuvials as usual; if you lose, the Illuvials that vanish still give something back, such as XP or extra energy to do longer OW runs.

shell mantle
#

Hey guys, sorry it has taken me so long to read this thread through properly.

Some points to make:

  • We have tried to monestise Arena with Ascendant, then Gauntlet, and now we have switched to Gauntlet Leviathan. While I think we have the potential to increase revenue with Gauntlet Leviathan, I don't think it's going to bring in 10's of thousands of players. In any game mode. We just have to accept that reality. So a pivot back to ascendant or any other kind of thing, is almost definitely not on the cards, unless @unkempt heron can convince me that the resource effort to do so is insanely low, which I hear he is going to try to do. I say this as someone who loves the game. And you know that's true. So adding Risk-to-Earn elements or wagering etc very likely isn't going to move the needle.

  • We want to add some agency and have the game not be a pure lottery, however, we want to avoid increasing scope of the MVP. The first thing we need to find out is will people actually like the style of game, then we can add a few things in. But the aim of this game is to entertain. The game that has generated the most revenue by far is Beyond, and I believe a large part of that is how easy it is to understand. As soon as we start adding in huge amounts of skill expression we lose the audience we are targeting and that means our core community becomes the target market again. Which also doesn't make sense, because you are gamers, and you want the mmo. So do i.

  • The key here is building a game that is super easy to understand, lots of fun (winning stuff is fun), and generating revenue which allows us to make the MMO a much better game with far more content. Does it really matter if there is another game in the ecosystem that non-typical illuvium players start pouring money into? No. We should all celebrate that, even if it means you won't play it personally. Because again, you will play the MMO, and it will become much better if we have a game generating lots of revenue.

I don't know if this is the game. Perhaps it will be another type of R2E game. But if you love Illuvium you should all get behind the concept of us building something that becomes that revenue success, so we can continue to build and deliver the best mmo possible.

shell mantle
#

Also, this thread is not for you to discuss what we did wrong, and what other games we can change / make better.

You are more than welcome to do that in general, or other channels. This was created so we could understand what people would like/ if anything inside the R2E game.

Please keep it on topic.

shell mantle
#

And apologies, we should have shared this already.
This was the prototype built in a few days, before Christmas.

It is obviously missing the proper UI and has some bugs.

You do get the idea though of Illuvials fighting in the Overworld, with a closing dome.

The UI is a very important part of this game. It has to be super exciting. When your illuvial kills you want to give that feedback to the user. The time counting down needs to feel suspenseful, winning needs to feel good with a big celebration. Dying needs to have the resurrection animation, and a feeling of dread. The camera angles need some work so its easily streamable.

Lots to do, but at least this gives you the basic idea of your illuvials entering and fighting to the death.

#

Andrei did some work over the holidays so im waiting for an updated video without the bugs and weird shit happening. But still no work has gone into things like the UI, and cameras, animations etc

brittle burrow
shell mantle
#

And tbh, I think we should heavily rely on AI to create those environments using the amazing assets we already have. Flat maps work better as you can see some illuvials are in places they shouldnt be, which would be minimised with a simpler map structure.

late lion
unkempt scroll
#

not sure why people would want to watch this.
genshin impact got so much visual and audio effects

#

even cocomelon gives more dopamine. cocomelon is crack

winged hawk
# shell mantle Andrei did some work over the holidays so im waiting for an updated video withou...

I think I can speak for almost all the players out here when I say: Thanks for doing something like this. And I am pretty sure almost everyone would like to have built into this mode, some really sophisticated "Watch mode", so even people who aren't playing can log in and choose to watch any ongoing "Battle Dome". The dome may close sooner, but slower. Giving a Fortnite-like effect? Sorry for the text block, Kieran. I get excited and get lots of ideas. Looking forward to it! Great Job! Atlas_Thug

shell mantle
winged hawk
#

I want to say this because nobody has said it yet. I think this mode has the potential to be the biggest self-perpetuating marketing machine for Illuvium that there will be. If it is done in a way that emphasises ease of watching, and really low barrier to entry ( at this point, almost anyone can afford to go buy a few junky Illuvials on the marketplace ). And if it's made really fun to watch, has built-in streamer/content creator tools, and has prizes that get people excited, then it will be a great way to boost new player count coming in. Also, Kieran, I think Mobile Arena will 100% suprise you.... The sheer numbers potential of that HAS to bring in some amount of money. Cheers! Stay Awesome!

wooden shuttle
# shell mantle Hey guys, sorry it has taken me so long to read this thread through properly. S...

I'm sorry Kieran, but all of this is just wrong, and you are missing the big picture. Both Ascendant and Gauntlet had no chance to succeed because there is nothing else in the game as supporting system to make it all make sense. The f2p Gauntlet was more like a demo of a game, rather than a full stand alone game. Even if it was the most fun game in the world, it would get boring after a week, because you didn't include any progression systems around it.

You said it yourself, beyond is the top grossing title, but not for the reasons you mentioned. It's the only place where you did it right - it's a collection game - with a collection album - and incentives to collect. Why is it so hard to understand we need something like this for our other games too? And it's 10 times more important than this r2e nonesense. Besides for gameplay, it will also increase revenue. Right now instead of relying on our best assets - the illuvials - we want to go create some other quick band aid fix.

We should have had a similar collection system for OW and illuvials 2 years ago! And yet you declined it 2 times now, for very strange reasons. And then we push non working suggestions like this one after another, which might seem as low scope creep, but add 10 of these useless things we built and it stacks. Could have built something useful instead.

What makes you think this will generate any revenue?

wooden shuttle
#

"Grind" is one of the most popular terms in gaming. It's long, boring and tedious, but people like it if there is a reason behind it. We introduced the biggest grind fest, slapped it behind a pay wall, didn't include any progression systems or reason for this grind and then wonder but why it's not working. Maybe if people had reasons to do it, they would have. And no, Leviathan is not enough by itself.

unkempt scroll
shell mantle
# wooden shuttle I'm sorry Kieran, but all of this is just wrong, and you are missing the big pic...

So things like leaderboards, battlepass, rewards, tournaments, cosmetic unlocks aren't progression? F2P gauntlet was not a demo game. That is literal nonsense.

Beyond's largest wave had no collection album and no incentives. The product launched and was a massive success because it was simple to understand. Buy and collect. The systems around it came later.

The Overworld right now isn't fun to play. I guarantee had we just sold packs of Illuvials it would have been more successful than the existing overworld. Now, I believe with a really fun game ie the MMO we're building, that beats selling just packs, because there is a game attached to it.

But sitting here telling me I know nothing about the project I started, because the games don't have more infrastructure around progression is again, nonsense.

Beyond was one of the "useless" things. And now looking back it is the only reason we are still here, because it has generated $10m in revenue.

So when I suggest another one of these "useless" things so we can utilise the IP, generate revenue, give utility to illuvials and create a burn mechanism, perhaps listen.

winged hawk
# wooden shuttle I'm sorry Kieran, but all of this is just wrong, and you are missing the big pic...

I disagree totally with this. I think this take is overly critical. And comes from a place of not understanding ACTUALLY HOW DIFFICULT IT REALLY IS to create a Generational Brand.... Because Y'all need to understand one critical thing about Illuvium. Its NOT JUST ANOTHER GAME..... IT IS a generational brand which will last for decades in my humble opinion. Please give them the patience and grace to build.

unkempt scroll
#

ur doing too much lol

winged hawk
unkempt scroll
#

Please ser not the mute i repent

winged hawk
unkempt scroll
#

but ur just pixels on my screen

shell mantle
#

Please can we keep it on topic about the game idea

gray torrent
#

I’m gonna say this with as much sincerity as possible… a lot of this is common knowledge at this point.

Illuvium bit off more than it could chew. Making 3, really 4 games simultaneously was a mistake, and it’s one we are still paying for. The ecosystem is fractured. Goals are unclear. Instead of a unified sense of progression, players bounce between half fulfilled systems with no clear purpose. The result has been boredom, frustration, and disengagement. The playerbase reflects that. Most people are gone. The ones still here are tired.

Arena is fun. That was a win. But instead of feeding it, rewards were pulled, focus shifted to the MMO, and of course more players left. Full real player lobbies don’t exist. It’s 2 to 3 humans at most.

I don’t think the team doesn’t care about players or fun. I think many systems were designed around scarcity, friction, and asset protection rather than fun.

Which brings us to R2E.

From the outside, this looks like another detached system. Potentially extractive and heavily RNG driven. It won’t fix the underlying issues. At best it might create a short term spike of attention, followed by long term resentment. Introducing RNG heavy asset eating mechanics risks losing even more players and respect.

I’m not anti risk. But risk without agency is just a slot machine, and Illuvium already has too many systems that feel like that.

ADRs are a good example. They don’t feel good. Drop rates were changed, high TPI outcomes feel rarer, and long sessions can result in nothing meaningful. That experience pushes players away. It doesn’t retain them.

Beyond was successful. It isn’t anymore. People sold. People left. Momentum died.

You do have fun gameplay in places. Gauntlet is solid. The MMO sounds promising and will find its audience. Hopefully that reopens some doors.

But right now, the remaining community is exhausted. And from that position, another RNG forward, low agency system is not the answer.

If R2E doesn’t center player choice, clarity, and agency, not just risk, then for me, this is a hard no.

Honestly, I wish you’d just integrate poker style sit and gos into the Gauntlet client so people can wager on matches. You’d fill lobbies instantly.

rigid anvil
shell mantle
shell mantle
rigid anvil
# shell mantle Web on mobile

I like the idea of burning of Illuvials of the losers (good sink) but let's add the ability for players to use fuel to bring their Illuvials "back to life" (each time reviving an Illuvial cost more than the last). This would be a great way to bring in additional revenue. One thing to add If we can play as our ranger with our Illuvial that would be next lvl. Simple controls for the ranger like left,right, forward, back and simple tap for combat

wooden shuttle
#

Don't know who are your advisors. If it's Scoriox it makes total sense 😀

If "fun" alone was enough for the MMO success, Gauntlet would have worked too. It's pretty fun now in it's near completed state. Where are the players? Where is the revenue?

rigid anvil
#

No matter what we wish our first wave of players will always crypto bros and arena will never be attractive to them

brittle burrow
# rigid anvil I like the idea of burning of Illuvials of the losers (good sink) but let's add...

It sounds fun but it would increase the barrier to entry, you'd need to run the game on your device and that would further increase skill expression beyond just team composition and potential power ups

It would also remove the ability to skip the video and go straight to the results, I watch a degen gambler and sometimes he does skip the slot animation which increases volume and would be good for us
Skipping would also be a good feature for bots and pro-gamers who want high volume

It would be a net negative imo

rigid anvil
brittle burrow
winged hawk
# rigid anvil I like the idea of burning of Illuvials of the losers (good sink) but let's add...

I like the idea of spending a small to modest amount of Fuel to revive the Illuvial in Battle Dome as well.... This is a great idea. Additionally, I think if they decide to go with your second point - allowing the Ranger into the Battle Dome that it should be a whole different choice at the start, so it's like a different tournament bracket. And if you do that, then just go all in with it... Make it full combat with owned weapons, and a full range of combat abilities like in the MMO. But IF this is done, then I suggest that it be a separate bracket, similar to stage runs as in OW.

rigid anvil
#

Adding a ranger would probably be too much work anyways, this idea only works if it doesn't take too much work. Could be a cool v2 of battle dome if it's a hit with just the illuvials

wooden shuttle
# rigid anvil I don't play gauntlet because it's too strategic which makes it not really fun t...

I also don't like this genre. However, a large part of why people have this feel, is because of our small playerbase. You play against the top players that rekt everyone on a consistent basis. It won't be the case with a large playerbase and normally working leaderboards ladder. Playing against people of similar skill level is always more fun.

We can't know if the MMO will be entertaining either. Why does everyone make that assumption so easily? It's banking on success which is very hard to achieve, especially in MMOs. And crypto bros mostly care for profit. It doesn't matter much what is the game, they will play every crap possible from axie to crabada if it will give it to them. Why do we need an MMO for that?

wooden shuttle
shell mantle
#

Post this in another channel. Throw us off topic again and I will mute you. Pretty simple, happy to debate, but remove it from this thread

winged hawk
#

Is there a way to place the Illuvial in Battle Dome or is the idea to have them spawn randomly in the instance? Having control over INITIAL LOCATION PLACEMENT might be one way to add in Player involvement that adds some amount of strategy to it 🤔

shell mantle
#

A few decisions pre game will give the player more agency and make them feel like their strategy can influence the result. We just need to make sure they're not too complex to understand. Spawn positioning is a good one

brittle burrow
#

One potentially interesting direction would be to introduce a wheel-spin mechanic that determines an Illuvial’s starting position.

The same logic could apply to power-ups. Instead of a fixed roll, the player chooses between a safe option (average power-up) and a risk option: accept a higher probability of a weak power-up in exchange for a non-zero chance at a significantly stronger one.

A concrete reference is Shuffle’s 666 slot. Players can take 10 guaranteed free spins, or gamble on fewer spins with upside—either landing more total spins or hitting a modifier (the 6) that increases spin value and grants an additional wheel spin. The key is that the player opts into the risk.

This would be ultra-degen, but intentionally so.

If positioning or power-ups involve randomness at all, it’s likely suboptimal to distribute that randomness passively. Instead, it should be concentrated into an explicit gambling moment—a spin, choice, or escalation—so you fully capitalize on the most addictive element of gambling: expectation, not outcome.

Raw randomness is forgettable. Anticipation isn’t.

There’s also a secondary benefit: it soft-buffers skill gaps. Lower-skill players retain the perception of agency and improving odds. Even after losses, the cognitive loop persists:

“I just need a good power-up next time. I’ve rolled three bad ones in a row so it's due.”

Statistically false. Psychologically powerful.

From an R2E perspective, this kind of opt-in variance increases engagement per match without materially extending match length (still ~1–2 minutes), while boosting retention via expectation stacking. If implemented carefully, it turns unavoidable randomness into a deliberate, monetizable, and emotionally sticky decision point.

image.png image.png
winged hawk
# shell mantle A few decisions pre game will give the player more agency and make them feel lik...

To follow up on that idea stream.... What IF: When I decide to join "Battle Dome", I get to review the map before and we use a "Heat Map" Style system to show where the most combat is happening.... And even later on, leave it open for adding in drone augment stuff that allows for a more detailed view of this critical decision stage.... Then I choose my Location of "Drop-IN" (Cool animation of your Illuvial parachuting in - similar to Fortnite, etc.,a ). And this allows me to choose aggressiveness, or elusiveness.... Also, I suggest that when your Illuvial gets the "Last Killing Hit" it gets an energy ball thing get sucked into them automatically, which heals them a bit for each Illuvial they take out.... So sometimes rewarding Risky High Aggressive Plays that drop your Rhamphyre into mobs of fighting Illuvials at "Just the right moment" to capitalize.

wooden shuttle
# shell mantle Post this in another channel. Throw us off topic again and I will mute you. Pret...

I did, for a long time. You never joined the discussion and fun 😊 I was replying to your post, which was off topic as well. Mute us both no problem.

Regarding the current topic - I've shared my opinion already. Another short term band aid which will do nothing. That being said, I think this post and suggestion is a much better idea than the MMO and has a better chance to succeed. Good luck, maybe this time it will work Atlas_Yeah

unkempt scroll
#

lets not make this feature more complicated.
i just want to burn some illuvials and get stables in return

#

i also have an attention span of exactly 60 seconds

#

just drop my illuvials, see it kill everyone or die within 5 seconds, repeat

#

maybe buy consumables to up my chance

brittle burrow
unkempt scroll
brittle burrow
# unkempt scroll the battle royale is the spin

The OW was supposed to be an enchanced pack opening but it didn't feel like it
In the casino game example there is a spin preceding the slot, having both would give more dopamine to degens

brittle burrow
#

The more I think about it the more it becomes obvious to me that we should not have to build a 10-illuvial comp every single game, it should be exceptional for huge prizepool at most

Imagine you are an average degen:
You log in the browser R2E game, you add funds, you buy recommended cheap illuvials directly on the game page (just below the team selection part of the screen), you choose between having an average power-up or spinning the wheel, go
The game lasts 45-60 sec
Repeat

If they have to choose 10 illuvials it would be way too complicated for them and kill this fast loop
3-4 illuvials per team would make more sense to a degen target audience to minimize mental strain, they want easy dopamine

unkempt scroll
#

wait are those illuvials in a team

brittle burrow
undone sundial
# shell mantle Hey guys, sorry it has taken me so long to read this thread through properly. S...

After thinking about it more, I’ve come around on R2E, not because I suddenly think it’s a great game idea, but because it’s the most in-line strategy with what’s actually worked for Illuvium in the past.

If we look purely at revenue, the two most successful products have been Illuvium Beyond and Illuvium Zero. Both are extremely legible to the crypto audience. Buy to speculate, flex ownership, sell if the thesis plays out. No onboarding friction, no skill wall, no requirement to understand complex systems.

Gauntlet and the MMO/OW sit at the opposite end of that spectrum. They require time, mastery, taste, and trust in the long term vision. That’s more conventional gamer psychology, and it’s clearly been much harder to convert this at scale, especially with Illuvium’s missteps over the years.

R2E, done properly, looks far closer to Beyond and Zero than to Gauntlet. Simple, fast, optional, revenue focused. It doesn’t need tens of thousands of players, it doesn’t need deep skill expression, and it doesn’t need to pretend to be the future of the ecosystem or exist within the lore. It just needs to be legible and fun in a high volatility way, with Illuvium taking fees along the way.

I still don’t think R2E should be framed as a core pillar or identity play. But as a ring fenced revenue generating product that leans into what the crypto audience already understands and is willing to spend on, it makes more sense than trying to force scale out of Gauntlet or front-loading expectations onto the MMO.

If the goal right now is to follow the money so the rest of the ecosystem has a better chance to succeed, R2E feels like the most logical way to do it.

As for what the R2E mode should actually look like. BR, racing, slot machine, I don't really think it matters tbh. So long as it's easy to understand and participate. I'd personally keep ownership and burning out of it though. That's just unnecessary friction. Just pay money, pull lever, have fun 🙂

covert summit
# shell mantle Hey guys, sorry it has taken me so long to read this thread through properly. S...

I am very aligned with what @undone sundial just wrote, with some of the same conclusions after given a bit more time to reflect on the suggestion. This R2E concept could work, and if it can be build without loosing too much focus on the Vision for Arena/MMO it's worth given it a go... People might all "shout" it was the worst idea ever in about 6 month if it doesn't work, but if you don't try it, you will never know.

It is true that revenue vise the ILZ and Beyond has been most successful, but I believe the main reason has been the timing, as it was launched at a time where a lot of people where throwing money at those type of products. This R2E could very well be the "next big thing", and fit with what did end up working for Beyond and to some degree for ILZ (although ILZ now needs some "love", to get back on the feet).

I strongly believe there is still a lot of potential for Arena to generate revenue, but it has to be done with focus on Leviathan, and creating a demand for improving and progressing with your team. nASTY do have a point in the collection part for Illuvials has been missing... and its not quite the same as leaderboards, battle pass, tournaments etc. (but that's better left for a separate discussion). The main point is, I think the actual gauntlet game is in the best state the game has been in at any point, and it's worth trying to add an Ascendant mode and incentivize people to play by adding fuel/cosmetics to some type of leaderboard. But I also think it will take time to grow the active player base, and will also need a mobile version.... So focus on MMO to be the "future flagship" and trying to come up with a cool R2E seems to be the right move, just don't discard Leviathan arena, it can still prove to be successful.

So... how this R2E should look like is hard to say, but the prototype looks promising, and I am sure we can come up with some good suggestions once we get a little more view of how its intended to look 🙂

brittle burrow
wooden shuttle
# undone sundial After thinking about it more, I’ve come around on R2E, not because I suddenly th...

I'll be the grumpy negative Nancy and disagree. There are many reasons we don't need something like this. The months needed working on it can be spent on much more important things, that would benefit everything on a much larger scale, and possibly bring thousands of players in. While still keeping the focus on the illuvials themselves, like how the original vision was. Or have we forgotten about that?

This suggestion will not bring any or minimum players in. How much revenue it will generate is also very questionable.

After all these years, this is what we will be excited about how to use our illuvials? Ok

#

Anything that deviates from the core mechanics we need in order for things to start clicking together, is a total waste of time. I don't know how we haven't realized it yet

rigid anvil
#

Make holos and dark holos a bit more powerful in this mode

brittle burrow
undone sundial
# wooden shuttle I'll be the grumpy negative Nancy and disagree. There are many reasons we don't ...

I don't disagree with you. But the right decision for where illuvium is right now is not necessarily the same as it was a few years back.

Illuvium isn't making any money. No amount of gauntlet tinkering is going to change that fact. A new solution is required in order for the original vision to be realised. And since the only proven method of making money illuvium has is crypto centric degeneracy. R2E is the right answer to illuviums current problems. Gauntlet/OW just aren't unfortunately

unkempt scroll
#

some people are still living in 2021

#

when will people realize that web3 degens only want to make money

#

beyond was successful but it eventually collapse as well. just forget about collecting, crypto is about gambling degeneracy, always has, always will be

#

Remember when were drawn into this project by "Fight for ETH"?

#

we wanted wager, but then gensler got in the way. fck wasted on VARA and sht

wooden shuttle
# undone sundial I don't disagree with you. But the right decision for where illuvium is right no...

But we are on the same page with this? It's my whole point, web2 qualities, gameplay and fun are not enough. We need to utilize web3 much much more. Just not in this stupid way.

The tree collection proposal was entirely a web3 suggestion, and should be saturated with web3 rewards.

The MMO ability rework suggestion https://discord.com/channels/760344898200666112/1452912413207691368 is also a web3 one, and provides a ton of utility for illuvials further.

The last sprinkle we need is a decent burning tech.

These 3 combined give us a much better position to stand our ground on, while keeping the focus entirely on the illuvials, like how the original vision was meant to be.

Now for revenue, both the r2e and these are questionable, none are guaranteed to work.

But from gameplay and vision perspective, it's 1 million times better to work on those than on this short term band aid crap. In my opinion at least

languid glen
#

@shell mantle In my opinion, we should release a basic version of R2E game as soon as possible, which only has basic functions such as betting, battles, and bonus distribution. Let the game run smoothly first.

Then, based on market feedback and user feedback, we can quickly iterate and add more game content to enrich this game mode. Personally, I believe R2E has the potential to be expanded to be evrn more fun than OW.

We can enhance a single illuvial from multiple dimensions, such as adding equipment, leveling up, weapons, and stats enhancements.The game content can be more complex, for example, by adding random medicines, weapon airdrops, traps, and opportunities for various buffs and debuffs.

we can make a <The Hunger Games> for illuvials

wooden shuttle
frozen quarry
#

I think this battle ground might revovle arround this new illuvial burning mech but if its anything like the fusing mech ...count me out .....need to know my results bfore I press that evolve button for sure no RNG

undone sundial
#

Kieran posted this earlier incase you missed it

frozen quarry
#

do I have to download to get sound ???

undone sundial
frozen quarry
#

that looks like an MMo leak not a risk to earn leak

winged hawk
# undone sundial After thinking about it more, I’ve come around on R2E, not because I suddenly th...
  1. I do NOT believe abandoning the MMO plan is wise. The original plan of continuing to add new game modes progressively as the IP has the budget for it is a very VERY good plan. Sometimes patience is needed, and definetely some faith.
  2. The R2E Should Be a Stand-Alone Mode, if it does not be given this accord for it, it will be seen as a cheap attempt at a cash grab. Its a good Idea. Remember this, R2E is about generating BIG volume in the Illuvidex Marketplace, generating a source of easy and fun marketing, and giving outsiders a chance to see the Illuvials on display doing what they do.
  3. I DO believe Ascendant mode should come back.... I just dont think its time right now... Splitting focus again will further fracture the player base. My suggestion would be to stick to the plan, and follow through.... And to ignore the noise.

But since this reply is furthering a thread that is slipping off topic.... I will end with bringing it back to "Battle Dome" topic.

I personally would be able to offer more feedback if we had more concept of what the team already has set out for it now, and to build from there. Can you articulate what are some core mechanics of the R2E that we dont already know?

Also, I have said it before, I will say it again. Tiers of Illuvials should be seperated. Perhaps this game mode could have (6) Internal modes within it. 1 for each tier 0-5 Plus a "wild mode" where any tier is mixed together.

undone sundial
winged hawk
#

R2E should have a built-in Spectator mode at the start that has lots of cool features that assist in watching and looking at stats and seeing into the action in different ways. Like: easy access to Heat Map for battles, locations of power-ups (if those exist), extended birds-eye view on zoom out, and any other cool feature that's useful for commentation. Play testing will be fun, and leaning into this aspect will be rewarding I believe.

wooden shuttle
# winged hawk 1. I do NOT believe abandoning the MMO plan is wise. The original plan of contin...

  1. The IP doesn't have funds for creating new modes left and right. It's not enough to even finish the MMO. That is the whole point of this. And no, it's not a good plan at all. Takes away focus from way more important things. The time for faith was last 5 years, now it's time to deliver.

  2. There is a much better way to trigger volume on the marketplace, that will be interesting and benefit current and new players. This suggestion will do nothing for bringing new players in and get them interested in spending. It is precisely a cash grab, and a sad attempt at further milking the current community.

  3. You think it's not the time to bring ascendant back, not to fracture the playerbase. But earlier you mentioned for you it's a good idea for them to keep adding more modes?

Does anyone look at this and get excited to play/spend? We had better "games" in the 80s. The only reason for this is speculation and a desperate attempt to milk a bit more funds, which we should know by now, it doesn't work that way. This will be another few months spent on the wrong features. Rinse and repeat. There is a saying about that approach and mindset, doing the same things over and over again and expecting different result

winged hawk
# wooden shuttle 1. The IP doesn't have funds for creating new modes left and right. It's not eno...

this is totally false.... what you saying? They DO have the funds to complete the MMO. I did not say add new mods now. I just saying dont deviate from the chosen plan.... I just want them to finish what they started. MMO is the key to success. Because the Overworld wasnt enough. Also... I think we need to be patient and lets see what $ brings in from the Arena Mobile first. In order to make that happen, I really think that there should be some prices lowered for some skins and make it easy for those new Arena mobile players buy.

unkempt scroll
#

$5m is not enough to complete a MMO.
and there is no playerbase for arena. it's 20 players including bots.

#

your best bet now is to full tilt into degeneracy

#

And they need to launch this gambling in Q1, the market is ready for the final exit pump

unkempt scroll
wooden shuttle
brittle burrow
severe heart
# unkempt scroll $5m is not enough to complete a MMO. and there is no playerbase for arena. it's ...

R2E has been the only hope since E9. The addressable market is Kalshi and Polymarket, which is the only crypto app that has worked outside of stablecoins this cycle. Alts risk-adjusted returns are horrible for the last 5 years. We have burnt at least another $10M+ proving this team cannot acquire customers and destroyed another $30M+ in marketcap along the way. Take the Arena that we have sunk $30M+ into, simplify player choices to placing illuvials in locations on the board, and let the engine run a fight simulation to determine a winner. Run campaigns to see if any degens exist who want to wager on this stuff. If not, shut down and donate what is left to charity...we have been supporting a charity for over 5 years now.

wooden shuttle
# severe heart R2E has been the only hope since E9. The addressable market is Kalshi and Polyma...

Yep and after all that, here we are with some yolo suggestion that nobody knows if it's going to work or do anything. We don't have budget for important systems which will benefit both arena and the MMO, but we have a budget for this nonesense. Why? Because someone woke up and decided this is the way.

Do we even have any metrics of similar "degen" games still being popular and generating consistent revenue? Or is it another yolo disaster?

severe heart
wooden shuttle
#

No need hats and rabbits, just apply some logic and creativity

stiff vine
wooden shuttle
gusty yew
#

Questions to be asked..
Whats the cost of entry? ( Maybe $2?)
How long are matches? (maybe 5-10max?)
How many players in each game? (5-10?/ 20-30?/ Maybe have the option to create own lobbies)

shell mantle
#

I have a game design doc but its 50 pages long. I'm working on reducing it so it can fit in a game proposal that we vote on

shell mantle
#

The way its set up now you also don't have to watch the game. You can treat it like an idle game in the background while you're working, or while you're on your phone. As soon as we make it so you're controlling your illuvial you lose that. And the target market for this is not intense gamers

shell mantle
stiff vine
stiff vine
# shell mantle The issue with this is it adds more complexity. I agree we need to add in some a...

I think the idle is important like you said.

Even in the crypto gaming space many 'ai' games are doing quite well.

Take grand arena for example. You train up mokis then send them into idle combat. All of the 'agency' happens before you press start.

An individual round of arena isn't too different tbh.

I think there's a world where you place 2-3 Illuvials in an arrangement. Equip items. Or even tell your Illuvial a specific strategy or play style before the battle commences.

undone sundial
undone sundial
#

@shell mantle If we accept that R2E primarily appeals to crypto native users, then I think it’s important link it with products those individuals already understand and value. From what we’ve seen so far the right product fit would be illuvium beyond.

Beyond succeeded because it’s simple, visual, rarity driven, and maps cleanly to speculation. You buy, you hold, you flex, you trade. No gaming literacy required. That’s exactly the same audience R2E is targeting.

So rather than look to using and burning illuvials maybe illuvitars would be a better fit for R2E instead. How exactly I don't know but it does seem to make more sense don't you think?

This approach essentially put the R2E mode under the umbrella of illuvium beyond which could be expanded to include all crypto centric products going forward. Offering a clear divide between illuvium the game and illuvium beyond the crypto degen space.

languid glen
stiff vine
# languid glen A small team of illuvials is funny, but that would make more complexity. that wo...

I disagree. Take league of legends for example. There's 100+ items in the game with varying complexity. But they have a recommended list you can just click if you are new to the game.

You could easily set a 'primary' Illuvial and then have a competent UI suggest additions. Users who want depth benefit. And newcomers don't need to think if they cbf.

I get what you are saying, but I disagree it's enough of a problem

#

There's definitely a balance to find. With 5+ Illuvials it's probably extreme but even 2 or 3 I think is manageable without scaring anyone away. As long as there's UX to back it up.

If there's no resources for said UX then it's a mistake I agree.

(Cough cough, arena lack of onboarding).

languid glen
# stiff vine I disagree. Take league of legends for example. There's 100+ items in the game w...

There is one problem with this idea that may be unsolvable.

We certainly want the ticket price to be as low as possible so that more players can accept the potential loss, but at the same time, we want the prize pool to be as high as possible to be more attractive. This requires us to accept as many players as possible in the one game run. Therefore, from the perspective of game resources, one illuvial per player is probably optimal.

In addition, for gamblers, betting on three illuvials to win the lottery is a significantly higher psychological barrier compared to betting on one illuvial.

I agree that 3 illuvial would be more funny but 1 would be better.

undone sundial
stiff vine
stiff vine
# undone sundial This is the point I'm trying to make above. The moment you ask a none gamer to b...

I'm not sure where you're coming from tbh.

From the perspective of older Illuvium fans I think it makes sense, but from the perspective of complete newcomers to the ecosystem (which is what I would target, it's larger), I disagree.

Illuvitars have a range of variables etc, and the d1sks aren't as buyable as ADR.

Would love to see illuvitars involved. Maybe U can use them for an optional 5% power boost or somethn idk

gusty yew
# shell mantle The issue with this is it adds more complexity. I agree we need to add in some a...

I gotta dissagree when you say it adds more complexity, i think its a very simple conecpt to keep a wider range of players involved in the ecosystem. This idea of illuvials battling each other in a royal could be evovled in to a proper fast paced mini game if done right imo

Maybe there could be room for 2 variations?

I just fear having the gameplay play out automatically, not keeping players engaged but only watching/ waiting the game for end result would bore people longterm from playing because your making your target audience (gamblers) wait more than 30seconds to wait for the end result.

#

From my perosnal experience, one of the key rules in pubs when it comes to pokies/ gaming, you need to keep the players in thier seat, hitting that play button constantly for as long as possible to generate turnover -> revenue.
Pokie/ lottery gameplay keep the degen gamblers addicted because its a quick and instant result - just by a click of a button in a matter of seconds you are able to get a high rewards, depending how much your willing to bet.
I think it would be better off aiming for that quick shortcut trill of dopamine with a different game varient.

undone sundial
# stiff vine I'm not sure where you're coming from tbh. From the perspective of older Illuvi...

My angle here is pretty simple: the thesis that crypto centric individuals will care about owning Illuvials purely as assets has largely failed.

We’ve had over a year to validate that assumption. Outside of early speculation, Illuvial ownership hasn’t meaningfully pulled in or retained profit motivated crypto users. The loop just isn’t obvious enough, liquid enough, or emotionally compelling on its own.

What has worked are products where the value proposition is immediately legible to crypto natives. Illuvium Beyond is the clear winner here.

It succeeds because you don't need to believe in the game or deep dive mechanics to participate. You can understand the asset and its potential value in under a minute.

R2E is clearly targeting that same audience. If that’s the case, it makes more sense to anchor it to systems crypto natives already understand and trust, rather than doubling down on Illuvial ownership as the primary speculative hook and hoping it clicks this time (I genuinely believe it won't).

That doesn’t mean Illuvials are useless. I think their role makes sense as gaming assets within Illuvium’s main games. I just don’t think they work as the core speculative asset for crypto native users.

If the goal is revenue from crypto natives, the data is already telling us where attention and spending actually flow. People already in crypto respond to Beyond. They don’t meaningfully respond to Gauntlet or the Overworld and that's just a straight up fact 🤷‍♂️

#

As I said earlier, I'm all for R2E if we're actually going to do it properly. But if we're going to spend time and resources on a mode that appeals to a particular kind of person only to then use an asset class that has proven it doesn't appeal to those individuals we're just falling through the cracks again aren't we?

It's just Gauntlet f2p with rewards 2.0. No lessons learned

prisma pebble
# undone sundial My angle here is pretty simple: the thesis that crypto centric individuals will ...

Beyond isn't (wasn't) successful because it's simple.
It's revenue is directly corelated with monetary rewards + some speculation about the future.
Speculation was super high in the beginning and has flattened out, monetary rewards were/are decreasing aswell, and with that the revenue.
For example, where it was a big revenue driver in the beginning, last wave wasn't even close of a success since the rewards got lower with tokenprice decreasing.
The limited christmas sale didn't even sell out.

But most importantly, you shouldn't open a casino and tell your customers they can only buy chips in april and september. 😄

severe heart
# undone sundial As I said earlier, I'm all for R2E if we're actually going to do it properly. Bu...

Gaintlet for dummies (like place them in the arena and simulate)…reward with USDC. This might hold people’s attention (who have money, not IPL crowd) to engage and wager. Run events continually with our dedicated volunteers who are by far the DAOs best spokespersons. Or make one hire that is an articulate that can be the face of the rebrand. Land a partnership with a want to be Kalshi on the EVM then all of a sudden there is hope.

severe heart
eager otter
#

A quick note on restoring Illuvial upon death, perhaps in exchange for fuel. If this is the case, I hope it will be limited by time or whatever. As a player, I wouldn't want to face the same perfect Ramphyre ten times in a row, one-shotting everyone 😉 Could we have a smaller experience reward when an Illuvial dies, based on its ranking and line (Atlas XP for Atlas line)? This would encourage players to burn their Illuvials while having fun. For exemple if you go to top 8 you get a box with 100 xp based on the illuvial line you used.

brittle burrow
brittle burrow
# undone sundial My angle here is pretty simple: the thesis that crypto centric individuals will ...

Illuvials didn't generate much speculation but why?

  • They came in H2 2024, long after lands and illuvitars when most Illuvium speculators had already left the ecosystem
  • They had almost no utility

Risking illuvials with combat stats, combat animations and AAA graphics in a cock fighting game sounds way more coherent to me than using illuvitars
Illuvials are also the core of the universe, it makes sense to add a huge burn mechanic to this asset class rather than the secondary one

I kinda like your idea because it would give utility to my hundreds of unused illuvitars but I assume that degens would prefer risking an interoperable creature that can fight in other games rather than mere PFPs

Having illuvitar PFPs for the R2E would be a nice idea though

My only worry regarding using Illuvials is that infusions will make the game too complicated for degens, TPI was initially there to simplify power evaluation and infusion will complexify it

Will infusion bonus stats matter in the R2E? @shell mantle

winged hawk
undone sundial
# prisma pebble Beyond isn't (wasn't) successful because it's simple. It's revenue is directly c...

I’m not saying Beyond is in a great place right now, honestly, nothing in Illuvium is so we're talking about least worse options here for context.

What I am saying is that when it comes to generating revenue from crypto native users, Beyond has actually proven it can work. Illuvial ownership hasn’t, not even close.

If we’re serious about making R2E interoperable with an existing Illuvium asset class, the logical move is to pick the one that has already demonstrated traction with that audience.
Crypto natives understand jpeg speculation instantly. They don’t understand, or respond to complex, game dependent assets as a primary financial hook. This isn't an opinion it's fact.

That’s why Beyond makes more sense as the bridge for R2E than forcing Illuvials back into a role they haven't proven they can fill.

gray torrent
#

Here's one idea on how to make this all make sense in the exosystem

XP ROYALE
Drop up to 10 Illuvials into the dome
Each Illuvial adds to a pool of XP
Winner gets the XP in a form of XP Box they can use on any owned illuvial to upgrade

Entry fee... 99 fuel

undone sundial
# brittle burrow Illuvials didn't generate much speculation but why? - They came in H2 2024, lon...

I think Illuvials could work in R2E in theory, but that assumes we can train crypto natives to care about game assets. History hasn’t been kind to that assumption.

Degens optimise for speed, clarity, and capital efficiency. Beyond worked because the value prop was instantly legible with near zero cognitive load. Adding Illuvials, infusions, TPI interpretation, and future interoperability risks over engineering for gamers while under serving the very audience R2E is meant to attract. If Illuvials are used at all, they probably need heavy abstraction, tiers or brackets, rather than full game objects, otherwise we’re just recreating Gauntlet f2p with rewards again. Another example of a misalignment of incentives.

brittle burrow
winged hawk
undone sundial
#

The best example of what I'm getting at was that first live stream of Beyond. I vividly remember watching @shell mantle and others going full degen on Beyond. Buying, selling and flipping. It was clear that Beyond resonated with those that are in crypto to do such things.

We've never seen that behaviour around illuvials.

brittle burrow
undone sundial
brittle burrow
#

I agree that we would need to simplify illuvials a lot

undone sundial
# brittle burrow Mhhh good point

We're not talking about gamers that just don't know illuvium. We're talking about appealing to people that don't even play video games that also don't know illuvium. There's no way they're going to put up with the friction of understanding illuvials.

Just tell them "to gain perks in R2E buy jpegs." Easy

brittle burrow
prisma pebble
# undone sundial I’m not saying Beyond is in a great place right now, honestly, nothing in Illuvi...

i don't think you can compare an asset with another when you throwing money out as reward for one and none for the other and then say "one has proven itself"
Also don't think it makes any different for someone if he gambles with a jpeg or with an animated jpeg.
The challenge is to get someone actually putting money in this who isn't already in the ecosystem, since crypto gamblers like it as you said simple and just buy a bunch of shit tokens... not if a jpeg is animated or not 😄

One could even argue that using illuvitars would be more complicated since it comes with accessories when opening a disk compared to just getting illuvials when doing an adr.

And the fact that beyond disks are seasonal sales just makes it even worse of a pick.

undone sundial
prisma pebble
gray torrent
# winged hawk That would be massively unpopular.... This mode MUST have $ rewards & winning Il...

Where’s the cohesion though? No one outside this community is logging in to gamble for Illuvials they don’t care about and can’t use anywhere. Maybe that would’ve flown back when attention was at all time high, but not now.

Let's look at Beyond since everyone keeps referencing it. When did Wave 1 drop? March 2023, back when Illuvium still had a ton of hype, speculation, and people genuinely excited for games that didn’t exist yet. Beyond was a way to flex, connect with the IP, and gamble because liquidity was high and vibes were good.

That’s not the world we’re in anymore.

Macro is different. Local community sentiment is different. We have actual games now, but the ecosystem is fractured. There’s baggage. There’s mistakes. Illuvium has a reputation... you can’t just spin up a cash grab R2E and expect it to print money when liquidity is low and everyone is sceptical (ebb).

What does make sense is using R2E to actually unify the ecosystem rather than fragment it more. Something that plugs into what we already have, reduces friction, and stitches together the disconnected parts instead of slapping another isolated gambling mode on top.

undone sundial
#

If Illuvium is serious about R2E, then this is not something we should be winging internally or crowd designing in Discord.

R2E sits much closer to gambling economics than traditional game design. Expected value, loss tolerance, churn under risk, whale behaviour, session length, payout pacing, and regulation all matter far more than balance or fun alone.
Those are specialist domains.
This is exactly the kind of system where a consultant with experience in casino design, betting products, or risk-based economies pays for themselves very quickly. Getting it wrong doesn’t just mean the mode fails, it can damage trust, perception, and the wider illuvium ecosystem.

Treat R2E like an experiment, ring fence it, keep it simple, and bring in someone who actually understands risk psychology and monetisation under uncertainty. Guesswork here is expensive.

This isn’t a criticism of the team or the community. It’s acknowledging that this is a different discipline entirely and we clearly don't have the answer to how to make R2E successful.

rigid anvil
brittle burrow
#

Buy buy buy, spin power up wheel, go Illuvitar bonding animation for illuvial teleportation

gray torrent
#

This is how many illuvials have been minted and there are about 90k listed
Can we please be realistic?
The market is saturated with cheap illuvials... why would new people spend money in a gatcha to get illuvials that cost .003 cents? Help me understand please...

Not trying to rain on the parade. Just consider having it make sense based on where things are at.

Screenshot_2026-01-07_at_10.51.27_AM.png
vocal sinew
prisma pebble
brittle burrow
rigid anvil
gray torrent
# brittle burrow There could be a free mode where you just wager your illuvials, the winner gain ...

See that makes sense

XP has been gate kept for far too long imo. That's actually one disjointed blocker to the current Levi mode... people NEED to be able to level SPECIFIC illuvials so they are viable and competitive. Gaining XP in a mode like this would help the ecosystem.

The only other thing that would appeal is if it were really a buy in... maybe you buy in 100 or 500 fuel... that goes into a pool for that battle and winner gets the fuel and some xp... and the illuvials get burned. This would 1. reduce supply and 2. incentivise arena engagement

rigid anvil
gray torrent
rigid anvil
brittle burrow
rigid anvil
#

What if I'm brand new to the ecosystem and don't own an Illuvial. How are you going to easily bring me on board?

gray torrent
brittle burrow
rigid anvil
#

Ok how about a tier 0 mode where you are given a t0 and if you win you do get a bit of XP but it's not much and not really worth bots time and even if they do I think Illuvium team can cancel the account

#

Second thought a brand new player could just play with 9 bots in a 10 Illuvium battle to get an idea how it works and if they like it. This way they get a game instantly

brittle burrow
#

We could give new accounts something like 5-10 fuel so that they can play 1 or 2 super cheap games
If bots create thousands of account it's good for us, we're basically giving $0.05-$0.10 worth of fuel per account

rigid anvil
#

Also I think giving only XP for winning will keep bots away cause it's not like you can sell the XP for liquid "cash"

rigid anvil
brittle burrow
#
  • So let's say we give 5 fuel to newcomers
  • They get 0 TPI T0 illuvials that can't even be burnt for infusions
  • They play the cheapest 5 fuel entry fee mode that only rewards xp from other burnt illuvials (if other burnt illuvials have 0 xp, you still get a little something to go from lvl 1 to lvl 5 at least)
  • Then they have to add funds if they want to play the 10 fuel mode where they can risk losing their illuvial to steal others' illuvials
brittle burrow
rigid anvil
# brittle burrow It makes sense but how can they use illuvials if they don't even have an account...

Here is the flow for a brand new player. Just click play and a battle starts for them with 9 bots and it's played with t0 Illuvials, if them happen to win we say make an account to get XP plus t0 Illuvials and a bit of fuel. If they don't win we still give them the free t0 Illuvials plus fuel. From there they can play with the t0 Illuvials they got(one of each) and possibly win more XP. After that they are encouraged to buy an Illuvial where if they play with it they can win significant XP. After that they see they can play in big tournaments and have a shot of winning a big prize if they wager a bit of money.

brittle burrow
rigid anvil
winged hawk
rigid anvil
winged hawk
#

okay, fine. 😣

stiff vine
stiff vine
stiff vine
gray torrent
#

I was thinking earlier about agency and this whole thing... I actually think agency is a bad idea in this kind of thing. Goes against what I thought earlier... but I think some one/ppl will figure out optimal placements/strategies and capitalize on the newbs. That's the nature. That'll leave a sour taste in newbies mouths and you turn off more people. So either it's full ass rng... or full on agency. nothing in between.

brittle burrow
unkempt scroll
#

please stop gamifying.
degen just want to degen.
why would anyone play this sht if not for money?

cover.png
stiff vine
# gray torrent I was thinking earlier about agency and this whole thing... I actually think age...

I think having both is fine. I'm in the same camp that its like 90% rng, but agency helps mitigate it a little.

The illusion of control makes something more addicting.

For example take Roulette or even Blackjack. In Roulette you feel you can cover certain sections of numbers, but its still pure rng for the most part.

In Blackjack you have very limited control, but it makes u feel like you can go from 50% winrate to 51% and thats a big difference to someone's enjoyment.

Really both have the exact same odds as a slot machine. But the user actually feels engaged.

unkempt scroll
#

no they dont have the same odds

severe heart
#
  1. Start with a stake everybody wants = USDC...maybe 100 people in the universe value XP, ILV, or an NFT. Then, trade Fuel for predicting the odds of the outcome (maybe our retrofitted IMX NFT store, called a DEX, can actually do that) 2. Casinos, Cockpits, & Colosseums = OG Degens giving away their extra coinage for centuries. Do this! 3. After burning $30M+ burn on Arena turn it into a Casino Cockpit Colosseum. Eliminate all of the autobattler BS that like .001% of humanity calls fun, Let players position creatures, get some initiation bonus for timing the start (bumping the Illuvials ass to get up in the air), and turn them loose to cock fight (simulation engine like slots). 4. Take the $5M and get set up with the Commodity Futures Trading Commission, or better run a $5M campaign to sell the ILV IP to Kalshi or another market maker that can actually execute. OR we could sit around debating a bunch of complex BS for our few amateur DEVs getting paid with ILV to defy 5 years of precedent.
undone sundial
# stiff vine Hold on. What would an Illuvitars battle royale actually look like then? What a...

Personalised Illuvium Casino Concept

A personalised Illuvium casino instance skinned using your Beyond collection.
Think: Card backs, Table and felt designs, Dealer avatars, Slot machine themes, VIP room aesthetics
All cosmetic. No impact on odds. Pure identity and flex.

After reading through the discussion, it feels like we’re at a fork in the road.

Option one is to build something proven and well understood by crypto natives. Online gambling is a solved problem in terms of psychology and revenue. We know it works.

Option two is to invent a brand new R2E product and hope it sticks. That’s a much higher risk path, and if we go that route we should be honest that we don’t currently have the expertise to design it properly without external help.

Both paths are valid. Pretending they carry the same execution risk isn’t.

I'm currently more in favour of building an illuvium casino within illuvium Beyond. And using Beyond assets to personalise the experience. Why? Because online casinos make money, Dev time would be minimal and illuvium needs a proven revenue generating product. Nothing I'm seeing in this thread so far is proven to make money.

undone sundial
prisma pebble
# undone sundial Personalised Illuvium Casino Concept A personalised Illuvium casino instance sk...

it's pretty hard to get new users in a new online casino.

For example swisscasinos is trying since years and they are now up to 66k registrations according to cgpt.
Can barely play online poker there and if you do you always see the same people.
They did some pretty expensive marketing campaigns...
They paid politicians money, so a ban for other online casino plattforms got through so they get at least all the swiss people.
But again... 66K registrations so far and thats total registrations, no idea how low the MAU is.

undone sundial
prisma pebble
stiff vine
stiff vine
# undone sundial

On that note, a way smarter strategy on option 1 would be to just partner with stake. Create a game to add there, get 10% of their rev.

undone sundial
stiff vine
#

Cambria is the obvious example. Grand Arena is a solid example. Fableborne has elements of it, I'm sure there are others idk much about.

undone sundial
stiff vine
undone sundial
stiff vine
brittle burrow
unkempt scroll
#

and they do make non-zero revenue

#

we dont want you to get muted even if the information is taken from a semi official site

wooden shuttle
prisma pebble
wooden shuttle
unkempt scroll
#

if GHamster is not muted for posting false info about runway, i can be sure the mute was a power trip.
i have proof of concurrent player numbers and use of bots

wooden shuttle
unkempt scroll
#

i heard that guy resigned from council too lmao

wooden shuttle
#

Spoon? It's not him who muted me

unkempt scroll
#

you deserve a mute lol

wooden shuttle
#

For what?

prisma pebble
eager otter
#

Does ebb have a chance to win ?

spiral viper
rigid anvil
#

Will this game mode mostly just consists of fighters since they might have an edge

#

I wonder if we could tweak things to make all illuvial types valuable

brittle burrow
gusty ember
rigid anvil
brittle burrow
#

Just the TPI would do the trick imo
If they involve more accurate traits they should not show it right away to avoid scaring our degens away

image.png
winged hawk
undone sundial
wooden shuttle
#

To me this sounds like it's neither going to attract players, nor anyone spending. I have no feedback to provide. Cheers

unkempt scroll
#

We have proven that "real players" dont spend or dont have money to spend. they only want to extract rewards.
degens do have money and will spend, always has, always will

wooden shuttle
#

We have proven absolutely nothing. There hasn't been a reason to spend on anything so far, and there still isn't. That's why no one does. And that's because of "ideas" like this one, taking the focus from the important stuff

undone sundial
unkempt scroll
wooden shuttle
winged hawk
unkempt scroll
#

How much narkesh has spent on ILV?

undone sundial
# winged hawk those degens will destroy this game, and push away real long term players.... Th...

You do understand that by any reasonable metric Illuvium is a dead game right now, right?

Low player counts, weak retention, negligible revenue, that’s not a “future risk”, that’s the current state. So the idea that degens might destroy the game ignores the harsh reality that there isn’t actually anything to destroy.

Degens aren’t a replacement for real players, they’re a potential bridge: short-term, speculative capital that can hopefully fund a longer term vision. But only if R2E is properly designed and implemented with these individuals in mind.

wooden shuttle
unkempt scroll
#

$5m prize pool

eager otter
#

Maybe they will put a leaderboard rewards in cash for the degens. There will be Tournament prize pools to attract those with an easy onboarding without anything to understand. Insert coin/press and play. Try again. Illuvium need that money right now, then we can talk about improving the other games.

ashen burrow
#

risk2earn the best mode in web3 game-fi

ashen burrow
# spiral viper he has a chance to survive

does illuvium team think about extraction? I think its good part of battleroyales.

  1. if you want high risk high rewards u dont extract and play until last extraction
  2. if you want low risk low reward u extract on first extraction
  3. if you killed some players and u already have high reward and u dont want to risk it u go to first extraction as well
#

I think extraction the best way to please everyone

#

for example shrapnel/xociety/werm (web3) / arc raiders/tarkov (web2)

unkempt heron
#

Hey guys!

@shell mantle and I have been working on the Illuvium: Deathmatch GDD v2, an updated version of the Illuvium: Deathmatch proposal shared a few days ago.

We carefully reviewed all the feedback from the surveys you submitted and have worked to create a game that incorporates most of the suggestions while laying a solid foundation for future development.

The details are in the document, but in essence, Illuvium: DeathMatch is a simple, gamified R2E experience that is cost-effective for the DAO to implement, as it leverages many existing systems while offering strong revenue potential. Moreover, if the game gains traction, the DAO will have the flexibility to expand it with additional game modes that could further increase the appeal to traditional gamers, such as Team Play or real-time Illuvial commands and combat-boosting mechanics during fights. There are many possibilities to enhance the game over time, making this a very promising direction to explore.

Here's the link: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TRqWSmcj2hLMaasticwzMSYWhG8n3KLc1EvtJLOmnT0/edit?tab=t.0#heading=h.5adprrhvg6qn

Please let us know your thoughts.

Thanks in advance.

Google Docs
Illuvium Death Match (v1 Untouched)

Illuvium: DEATHMATCH - MVP GDD Game Overview 1.1 Title Illuvium: Deathmatch 1.2 Concept A high-stakes battle royale where players choose an Illuvial to fight against other players’ Illuvials within a limited perimeter. Strategy, skill, and survival are pushed to the limits, with permanent conseq...

lavish condor
eager otter
unkempt heron
undone sundial
eager otter
unkempt scroll
#

so basically its just a whale's game

eager otter
unkempt scroll
#

not sure why we need another currency, just use fuel

unkempt scroll
#

so we likely gonna spam skirmish on the dao

eager otter
undone sundial
# eager otter

Yeah the protection taxes in this mode are very heavy.

unkempt scroll
eager otter
unkempt scroll
#

rather just spam skirmish and bleed the dao's treasury

unkempt scroll
eager otter
unkempt scroll
#

lets say carnage get 100 players
Thats $1000 prize pool, winner get $500.
The most expensive protection is $112. Thats a pretty good odd for whales

#

Traits+LV+holo its gonna be a carnage lol

eager otter
unkempt scroll
#

ok conquest

#

maybe lets try simpler without this much addons

eager otter
#

Is it possible to try it for free in a first time to see the problems before launching the products?

unkempt scroll
#

does it show how many players are in the lobby while ur doing the load out?

eager otter
unkempt scroll
#

well if we are to pay with fuel or token we can scan the blockchain

#

and since its gonna be burnt there must be a contract signing which illuvial is used

unkempt heron
brittle burrow
# unkempt scroll How much narkesh has spent on ILV?

He actually asked me about leviathan recently
Furyz, Immafishy and NotComplain are also big IPL winners and have built their own leviathan collection with a part of the money
I personally have used most of the money I got from Illuvium to build my leviathan team and buy $ILV
There might be other people that I didn't mention

brittle burrow
undone sundial
#

One feature I'm a little concerned about is dome damage. To pay all these fees only to lose to the environment would feel awful

Spend $100 of your favourite illuvial but it got stuck on a rock so GG 😅

Would it not be better to start a 10 second counter on the illuvial outside the dome and if it doesn't make it back inside the dome in time teleport it back inside?

unkempt scroll
#

how much is minimum value of the illuvial for you to spend on $10 entry

eager otter
brittle burrow
unkempt heron
undone sundial
brittle burrow
unkempt heron
unkempt heron
gray torrent
#

$10 is the cheapest entry?
Why not $1-2 option?

brittle burrow
surreal plank
undone sundial
gray torrent
# undone sundial I'd definitely like to see carnage cheaper. $5 max imo

When I used to play pokerstars or fulltilt there was a WIDE range of buy-ins... 50 cents even...

AND FREEROLLS

What if the free mode doesn't give you something straight away... but is a qualifier for another low tier mode... or better

Fun story - I entered a main event freeroll on pokerstars which led to another freeroll and then another... I won all those and made it into the main event... made it to the final table and won $13K. Funnest shit ever.

Incorporate the full range... free - cheap - low - mid - high

sturdy olive
#

I will have to see how this works but looks good so far

eager otter
gusty ember
#

TBH I don't care about this game one way or another. I do care that it appears the rewards are devaluing an asset that I purchased believing it would only be available for a limited time.

Screenshot_20260109_091727_Drive.jpg
eager otter
gusty ember
undone sundial
rigid anvil
winged hawk
brittle burrow
#

I absolutely want the DAO to make money but isn't 25% rake too high?
Even 15% would be high
We want to target degens but they still have a brain, if we tell them that the casino takes 20% I assume that they will freak out and call it a scam

Comparison:

  • Poker Rake: Usually 2.5% – 5%
  • Casino Slots: ~3% – 8% (Casino games with the worst expected value)
  • Sports Betting: ~4.5% – 10%
  • Online Poker Tournaments: ~10% + Fees.
  • Daily Fantasy Sports (DraftKings): ~15%.
  • Horse Racing: ~15-20%.
  • Illuvium Deathmatch: 25% Total Rake (20% DAO + 5% Jackpot)
image.png
brittle burrow
#

Gemini 3 pro:

If we keep the rake at 25%, a player loses their entire bankroll in ~4 games. If we lower the rake to 5% but increase the speed by 5x, we make the same revenue per hour, but the player feels like they are 'staying alive' longer, which increases retention and addiction.

By lowering the fees and speeding up the game, we burn 5x more Illuvials per hour. Clearing the floor supply is more valuable to the ecosystem tokenomics than squeezing a few extra dollars out of the entry fee.

Casinos don't make money because the Roulette wheel has a 25% edge (it has 2.7% or 5.26%). They make money because the wheel spins every 45 seconds.

Illuvium Deathmatch should be a Roulette Wheel, not a Chess Match. Lower the fee, 5x the speed.

gusty ember
#

Do you think there is enough demand to have it needing 10 players? Are people going to sit and wait? Since there are prizes involved it can't be filled with bots.

eager otter
# brittle burrow Gemini 3 pro: If we keep the rake at 25%, a player loses their entire bankroll ...

But if we want big lobbys you need to wait ppl to enter in. What's the best? 10 lobbys of 10 ppl in a one minute game or 1 lobby with 100 ppl in a 5 minutes game. And maybe the lobbys are filled each hour and not every 30 sec, we don't know. This looks more like a whale game for gamers than a slot machine. And what's the target audience? It doesn't seem like they're targeting the average person who goes to the casino.

gray torrent
brittle burrow
# eager otter But if we want big lobbys you need to wait ppl to enter in. What's the best? 10 ...

I take it back, this game is supposed to be closer to a gladiator fight so it makes sense to have a lower volume than blackjack for instance

Since volume is lower and entertainment is higher, it makes sense to have something like 10-15% rake (25% still being way too high imo, even for degens)

I'm still unsure about having multiple phases, if we do we must protect players with internet problems:

4.9 Disconnection Protocols

"Matches are server-authoritative and will not pause for disconnects. However, players may configure 'Standing Orders' in their settings. These are If/Then logic scripts that the server executes automatically during Intermission Phases if the player provides no input (e.g., Auto-Heal, Auto-Buy Buff). This ensures that a temporary connection loss does not result in a guaranteed loss of stake."

eager otter
brittle burrow
eager otter
brittle burrow
brittle burrow
# unkempt heron Hey guys! <@770826457923715082> and I have been working on the **Illuvium: Deat...

PROPOSAL: Pivoting from "Fixed Shop" to "Gacha Wheels" for Loadouts

PROBLEM: We are building a Grocery Store for Gamblers

The current GDD proposes a fixed "Shop" for boosters (e.g., Pay 25 Credits Get +20% Damage). While this works for a Strategy RPG, it creates critical issues for an R2E/Degen product:

1. The "Solved Game State" (Boredom)
In a fixed shop, players will quickly calculate the "Best in Slot" item.

Scenario: If +20% Damage is the math-best item, everyone buys it.

Result: The buffs cancel out. The battlefield looks identical to a game where nobody bought anything. The game becomes repetitive and robotic.

2. The "Homework" Factor
A fixed shop forces players to do math ("Is +20% HP better than +20% Defense?"). Degens hate math; they want action. They don't want to optimize a spreadsheet; they want to press a button and feel a rush.

The Missing Ingredient: The "Upset Mechanic" ⚔️
We have inherent imbalances (perfect vs trash), but Static Imbalance is boring. Watching a Ferrari race a Honda isn't a spectacle; it's a commute.

The Narrative: The Wheel creates Variance. It gives the underdog a "Puncher's Chance."
The Hook: "Can the trash Illuvial with the God Mode Buff upset the perfect Illuvial that rolled a Dud?"
Without the Wheel, the better NFT is expected to win. With the Wheel, the outcome is in doubt. That doubt is what makes spectators watch and gamblers bet.

SOLUTION: The "Black Market" Wheel

We replace the static shop with 3 Tiered Wheels. Players don't buy stats; they buy probability.

The Gameplay Nuance: "Adaptation over Optimization"
Even if the strategy is solved (e.g., "Always spin the Whale Wheel"), the outcomes remain chaotic.

Player A rolls Vitality.
Player B rolls Granite.
Player C rolls Adrenaline.

Even though they used the same strategy, they now may have to adapt their Bidding/Positioning based on the hand they were dealt. It rewards dynamic gameplay rather than "Copy/Paste" strategies.

The Mechanics:

🟢 Wheel A (Safe): Cost 100 Credits. Guaranteed small buffs. (For risk-averse players).
🟡 Wheel B (High Roller): Cost 200 Credits. High chance of good buffs, small chance of "God Tier" buffs.
🔴 Wheel C (Cursed): Cost 50 Credits. 50/50 chance of a massive buff OR a debilitating debuff (e.g., +50% Dmg / -33% HP).

The Revenue Multiplier: "Escalating Risk"

This is how we 10x the credit spend. Allow players to Reroll, but with a cost that preserves rarity:

The Shatter Mechanic: Every time you Reroll to chase a better buff, there is a cumulative chance the item SHATTERS (Slot becomes empty for the match).
Why this works: It creates a "Push Your Luck" mechanic. A player with a "Gold Buff" will be sweating—do I settle for Gold, or risk destroying it to try for Diamond?

TL;DR:

Static Shops appeal to Gamers (who want fairness). Wheels appeal to Gamblers (who want variance). Since R2E is a wagering product, we should lean into the Casino psychology. @shell mantle

unkempt heron
severe heart
#

Wow, Labs was down to Slim and Chance…Slim just left town.

stiff vine
stiff vine
rigid anvil
# brittle burrow **PROPOSAL: Pivoting from "Fixed Shop" to "Gacha Wheels" for Loadouts** **PROB...

As someone who is probably the main audience for this game I agree with this! What if we simplified this though. Let's make the wheel free and automatically apart of the game. Once you register for the lobby you can spin and see if you get a boost (1 out 3 chance to get a boost) the illuvials in game would be highlighted if they got the boost). This would encourage players to register early. Credits and lvls of spin would be an extra revenue stream but if im already betting I don't want to have to spend more money to make my odds better. Let's keep it simple so we get this mode out faster. Then we can add more if the players want.

brittle burrow
# rigid anvil As someone who is probably the main audience for this game I agree with this! Wh...

Actually, looking at the GDD, we already start with 100 Credits included in the Entry Fee.
So your request is already granted: Everyone gets a 'Free Spin' (worth 100 credits) by default.

However, we should not make it automatic/forced in my opinion, and here is why:

1. Player Agency (Strategy vs. Luck)
If you make it automatic, you force every player to gamble.
But what if I want to play safe?
With the Credit system, I can take my 'Free 100 Credits' and spend them on Position Bidding (Safety) instead of the Wheel (Risk).
Don't force me to spin the wheel if I'd rather buy a better seat.

2. The 'Casino Chip' Psychology
Giving players 100 Credits feels better than an 'Auto-Spin.'

Auto-Spin: Feels like a loading screen mechanic.

100 Credits: Feels like Cash.
When I choose to put those credits on the Wheel, I feel like I'm making a decision. If the game does it for me, I'm just watching a movie.

3. The Upsell Ramp
If the wheel is automatic, there is no natural bridge to spending more.
If I have to manually buy the 'Basic Spin' with my free credits, the button for the 'Premium Spin' (200 Credits) is right next to it. It tempts me to reach into my wallet to upgrade.

rigid anvil
winged hawk
# gray torrent

Quick Question about legality and possible legal blowback..... Does a person already have to be 18 years old to own an NFT?

#

Because in many places.... Gambling is reserved ONLY for adults.... AND Illuvium Legal Team might not like having to deal with a slew of lawsuits to do with "My child got addicted to Online NFT Gambling from Illuvium"!

brittle burrow
# rigid anvil I can't argue this makes sense. My question is when can you spin? After register...

We need to support the 'Set & Forget' playstyle (mentioned in the GDD).

1. The 'Commuter' Use Case
If the 'Hourly Rumble' is at 7:00 PM, but I'm on the bus at 7:00 PM, I want to Register, Spin my Wheel, Bid for my Position, and then close the app.
I come back at 8:05 PM just to watch the replay/results.
If you force me to be online exactly at 7:55 PM to spin, I just won't play.

2. The 'Stewing' Revenue
If I spin at 7:00 PM and get a 'bad' buff, I have 1 hour to stare at it.
That is 1 hour of temptation to log back in and buy a Reroll.
If I spin 1 minute before the match, I might rush and settle. If I have time to think, I might talk myself into spending more credits to fix my loadout

shell mantle
rigid anvil
#

You get the first level spin free and if you don't get nothing, you can pay for the tier two or three but you can't spam the wheel. Seems more fair to me I think.

shell mantle
shell mantle
shell mantle
shell mantle
spiral viper
#

@signal oracle ```I really like the Deathmatch concept overall. The stakes, the spectacle, the permadeath angle, all of that is interesting and different.

But stepping back and looking at this through player behaviour and gambling psychology, I think there’s one big risk worth calling out.

Right now Deathmatch is clearly optimized for high revenue per match, not high participation or high frequency. That’s not wrong, but it has consequences.

When entry fees are high, rake is high, and permadeath is real, most players naturally do one of two things:

  • They either play very cautiously and very rarely
  • Or they decide it’s a whale game and opt out entirely

That’s just normal human behaviour. People don’t mind losing. They mind losing too fast and feeling like they never had a chance to recover.

In gambling products, casinos don’t make money by crushing players quickly. They make money by keeping players alive long enough to form habits, learn, and feel like they can bounce back. Frequency beats extraction almost every time.

What I’m worried about with the current structure is that:

  • People burn through bankrolls too quickly
  • Illuvials feel "too previous" to risk learning
  • Participation drops to a small, high spend group (if we're lucky)
  • Volume never really materializes

That’s bad for player experience and bad for long term DAO revenue.

My suggestion isn’t to change Deathmatch itself, but to reframe where it sits.

Instead of Deathmatch being the main loop, I think it should be the apex.

Under it, we should have cheaper, faster, lower friction loops that let players:

  • Play often
  • Lose safely
  • Learn the systems
  • Build confidence
  • Gradually move up into higher stakes

Think of it like this:

  • A daily or cheap mode that feels safe and repeatable
  • A mid tier mode where most volume happens
  • Then Deathmatch as the big, high stakes, high drama mode

Psychologically, that works way better.

Players are much more willing to risk assets and money after thery've:

  • Played a bunch
  • Had some wins
  • Learned what's going on
  • Feel emotionally invested

If we start them at the deep end, most people just won't jump in.

The outcome of the layered approach is pretty clear:

  • More matches played
  • More illuvials burned over time
  • Longer player lifetimes
  • Better sentiment
  • Ultimately, more total revenue flowing to the DAO

High stakes modes work best when they’re something players aspire to, not something they feel forced into or priced out of.

Right now Deathmatch feels like a premium casino floor.
That’s fine, but casinos only work because there’s a busy floor underneath it feeding players upward.

I think keeping Deathmatch as the apex, while lowering friction and cost below it, gets us the best of both worlds:

  • Whales still whale
  • Casuals don't churn
  • Ecosystem stays alive long term

Just my take, but I think this shift would massively improve both UX and the economic outcomes we’re all aiming for.```

rigid anvil
signal oracle
#

Just to make this concrete with examples:

If someone loses $10 once and feels bad, they leave.
If someone loses $1 ten times but wins a couple in between, they stay.

Same money. Totally different behaviour.

Right now a $0.50 Illuvial never gets burned because risking it costs $10.
Lower entry loops would burn way more supply over time.

Most players also won’t “learn” in a mode where they can lose an NFT forever and don’t fully understand the odds. Cheaper, faster loops fix that.

Whales don’t disappear if we add lower tiers. They always self select into the highest stakes. What changes is the ecosystem feels alive instead of top heavy.

Casinos don’t make money by killing players fast. They make money by letting people keep playing.

Deathmatch feels like a high roller room. We just need the busy floor underneath it.

rigid anvil
#

We also need a mode or a tutorial game where you don't need to already own an Illuvial to play to help bring in new players

signal oracle
#

I've got some specific examples for but some reason it's blocking all my attempts at posting it here 🤣

gusty ember
undone sundial
# shell mantle The no revenue coming in is always puzzling. We literally have 1/2 million reven...

I think you’re taking that line more literally than it was intended.

When I said “no revenue coming in”, I wasn’t making an accounting claim, I was making a strategic one. Obviously revenue exists (and I’m well aware of that, having contributed myself). The point is that it isn’t material relative to burn or to the scope of illuviums vision.

The real issue isn’t whether revenue exists in absolute terms, but whether there’s a repeatable, scalable revenue engine today that allows illuvium to realise it's vision and build this MMO. That’s the gap I’m pointing at. And I'm sure that's the gap we're hoping R2E will fill

winged hawk
stiff vine
# signal oracle Just to make this concrete with examples: If someone loses $10 once and feels b...

Yeah well said. This does feel a lot more expensive than it really should be.

It needs to be maximum accessibility, to get as many people using it as possible.

Don't forget that players need to migrate eth, buy illuvials and so on. There's already some friction for newcomers, which we need to make this work. At scale it becomes insanely addictive and it makes mint off rake, maybe the other costs can be toned down

rigid anvil
stiff vine
undone sundial
#

Honestly I'd rather we didn't do all this ownership, burn, protect stuff

Just pay a fee and then buy a tiered illuvial crate. So buying a T1 illuvial crate means you'll get a random S1/2/3 T1 illuvial for this battle.

I'd find this far more entertaining and it'll make sure we don't end up with 100 versions of the same illuvial fighting each other. Because I guarantee within a day or two of this mode going live a specific illuvial will be found to perform the best

rigid anvil
stiff vine
rigid anvil
stiff vine
stiff vine
undone sundial
#

I'll just buy this Atlas because it looks cute 😅

rigid anvil
rigid anvil
#

This is the way

rigid anvil
#

Man I think if we do this right it will be a big hit.

undone sundial
undone sundial
#

@shell mantle @unkempt heron

One alternative monetisation angle worth exploring is a hybrid access model:

Keep the Leviathan bracket as the premium, ownership-based experience,
but replace the other brackets with tiered Illuvial crates instead of ownership / burning / protection mechanics.

Each crate would contain 1 random Illuvial of that tier for use in a single battle
(e.g. a Tier 1 crate gives a random S1/2/3 Tier 1 Illuvial).

These Illuvials are not NFTs, have no persistent stats or levels, and are not interoperable with other Illuvium games.
They exist purely for that single match, keeping the system simple, balanced, and accessible.

No asset management, no economic complexity — just pay, open, play.

If a player doesn’t like the Illuvial they receive, they can pay to reroll and get a different random Illuvial of the same tier for that battle.

The instance entry fee is baked into the initial crate price, so players aren’t charged separately just to play.
For example: a Tier 1 crate might cost $2.99, while rerolls cost $1.99.

Psychologically, this feels like a good deal:
the player already feels “in” the experience, so the cheaper reroll feels like an optional upgrade to improve their session, rather than paying again to participate.

This would:

• Lower onboarding friction for new players
• Shift spending toward experience rather than speculation
• Preserve long-term identity via Leviathan
• Add controlled monetisation through crates + rerolls (without double-charging)
• Encourage greater Illuvial variety (better to spectate)
• Be far more mobile-friendly due to the simple, session-based flow

Most players don’t want to manage assets or navigate DEXs — they want fast, fun, immediate access.
The top 5–10% still get their premium mode as explained in your proposal, but everyone else gets something far more accessible that can potentially onboard towards future ownership

unkempt scroll
#

yes, lets make it more complicated than it should be

eager otter
undone sundial
# eager otter Ok but we need to keep some illuvial sink mode and utility to those. If the sink...

We definitely need sinks mid/long term, I agree with that.
But if the primary goal of R2E is revenue and player engagement, then the first optimisation should be for accessibility and monetisation, not illuvial burning.
The crate-based flow is designed to maximise onboarding, retention, and spend with minimal cognitive load:
buy → open → play.

Also, realistically, a large portion of low quality Illuvials currently held won’t be perceived as competitive in R2E formats anyway, so the demand a sink would create there is likely limited to quality illuvials.

As others have said, nobody is buying a 45tpi Atlas, paying a fee, only to then watch it get deleted 😅

eager otter
undone sundial
eager otter
prisma pebble
eager otter
# prisma pebble imo skirmish mode needs to change or being deleted completely. It likely ends up...

Entry could be 0.5 or 1 $, if 100 players come in it would have a better rewards for players and DAO. It have to be cheap to put in a doka stage 2. Even if it is free, It would not drain 100 % of the money of the treasury because there will be more transactions on the DEX and be entertaining. Maybe once a day a free entry. With that there will be 1000 players in this lobby because it's free and we could have some fun and views. A spectator mode and Sylen on top of it 🙂

brittle burrow
# undone sundial <@770826457923715082> <@413338966952247296> One alternative monetisation angle...

PROPOSAL: "Sealed Draft" Mode (Crate-Included Entry)

I really like the 'Crate' idea for Variance and Mobile UX. It creates a 'Draft Mode' feel where you have to adapt to the random unit you pull, rather than just bringing your best meta team every time.

However, the Economy Backend is critical here.
If Crates generate 'Ghost Units' (non-NFTs), we kill the demand for the actual assets. Even if buying the NFT is cheaper, most players will choose the Crate for convenience, destroying our volume.

The Solution: The 'Protocol Vault' & Inclusive Entry
We create specific "Sealed" Lobbies where the Crate is included in the Entry Fee.

Ticket: $2

The Split:

$1.70 (85%) Prize Pool.
$0.10 (5%) Asset Fund (Sweeper).
$0.10 (5%) DAO Revenue.
$0.10 (5%) Jackpot

How it works backend:

  • The Sweep: The Asset Fund constantly sweeps floor Illuvials (S1/S2/S3) and stores them in a 'Protocol Vault'.
  • The Pull: When a player enters the lobby, the server instantly assigns a real NFT from this Vault for the match.
  • The Sink: If the player loses, the NFT is Burned.

Why this wins:

  • The 'Equalizer' (Fairness): Everyone pays the same price, everyone gets a random unit. It removes the "Pay-to-Win" fear, attracting skill-based gamblers.
  • Guaranteed Floor Sweep: Since the asset cost is baked into the Entry Fee, every single ticket sold = one floor NFT bought. It is a consistent, high-volume sink.
  • Mobile Friendly: No wallet interaction required. Just Pay Entry

This gives us the mass-market Mobile UX we need, while secretly turning every casual player into a Floor Sweeper for the economy.

gusty yew
#

No clue what the rewards would be xD

#

mostly all gamblers want, is a quick fix shorcut $.$. Most hate overthinking

brittle burrow
# rigid anvil You get the first level spin free and if you don't get nothing, you can pay for ...

I see the concern about fairness, but a Hard Limit (e.g., 'Only 1 Reroll allowed') actually hurts the ecosystem in two ways:

1. Revenue Capping
If a Whale wants to spend 5,000 Credits ($25) rage-rolling for a specific buff, we should let them.
That money goes into the DAO/Jackpot. If we tell them 'Stop, you've spent enough,' we are literally refusing free money.

2. The 'Negative EV' Defense (Self-Correcting Fairness)
We don't need a rule to stop spamming; Math stops it.
If the First Place prize is $50, and a Whale spends $60 on Rerolls... they have already lost.
Let them do it! They are adding 'Dead Money' to the pot. They are effectively donating to the ecosystem.
The 'Fairness' is that you cannot buy a win profitably.

The Better Solution: Soft Caps (Escalating Cost/Risk)

Instead of a hard 'No', use the Shatter/Price Escalation we discussed:

  • Spin 1: 100 Credits.
  • Spin 2: 200 Credits (or risk Shattering).
  • Spin 3: 400 Credits (or risk Shattering).

This solves your fear of 'Spamming' because it becomes too expensive/risky to spam, but it leaves the door open for the occasional maniac to dump their wallet into the Jackpot.

undone sundial
# brittle burrow **PROPOSAL: "Sealed Draft" Mode (Crate-Included Entry)** I really like the 'Cra...

This is a really interesting idea. But I’m not onboard with the idea ownership is a net positive for R2E. For this audience, the risk is capital, not assets. Revenue and low-friction onboarding matter more than sinks imo.

Poker players don’t care who owns the cards

Sports bettors don’t care who owns the teams

Slot players don’t care who owns the machine

Do these players really care if they own illuvials? I'm not convinced at all.

covert summit
# prisma pebble imo skirmish mode needs to change or being deleted completely. It likely ends up...

How about if Skirmish mode prize is a random Illuvial (from t0/T1), so if you get lucky and win, you might get a better one than you used. We could put a limit on how many times you can run the "free skirmish" each day... but that could be a good way to get people to try our the new R2E 🤔
(some people would probably use it to try to burn low stat illuvials with a chance to better ones, but that's also fine.. you get more engagement and some may try to other modes as well).

It just have to be easy for new people to set up a new account and buy a ADR pack, and maybe consider creating a new type of cheep "starter pack" to get the first Illuvials.

eager otter
# brittle burrow **PROPOSAL: "Sealed Draft" Mode (Crate-Included Entry)** I really like the 'Cra...

This is perfect, I'd also like the option to bring one of my Illuvials; in that case, I'd pay $1.85 instead of $2. Or even $2 as long as I can bring whatever I want. And that gives the sweeper 15 cents of free money. I'm still worried that if I can bring in whatever illuvial I want, it will create too big an imbalance and some people might complain. Perhaps we could cap the modes, for example, the $2 mode = Tier 0-1-2 Maximum.

brittle burrow
brittle burrow
undone sundial
# brittle burrow You are spot on: The player shouldn't care. To the Degen, the 'Illuvial' is just...

I think the source of the Illuvial actually matters a lot here.

Paying the house is fine. Buying straight from Illuvium or risking capital against the protocol feels clean and psychologically justified.

What’s different is when degens realise the assets they’re risking ultimately originate from other players. They aren’t stupid. If it starts to feel like their losses are being used as exit liquidity for existing holders, that’s when hesitation and resentment kick in.

I’m not saying sinks are bad, but for R2E the loss needs to feel impersonal. Once another player that isn't taking risk become the visible or implied beneficiary, the dynamic shifts in a way that usually works against long term retention.

brittle burrow
#

You make a fair point regarding the psychology—losses need to feel impersonal.
However, I think we can solve that with Mechanism Design rather than stripping out the NFT utility.

1. The 'Impersonal Order Book'
The fear of 'Exit Liquidity' usually comes from P2P dumps (e.g., 'I am buying GHamster's heavy bag').
But here, the player interacts with the Protocol, and the Protocol interacts with the Market.

The Protocol sweeps the floor anonymously.

The Player buys the Crate anonymously.
There is no direct link. To the Degen, they are buying a ticket from the House. The fact that the House sources its inventory from the open market is standard business, not a bailout.

2. The 'Price Cap' Defense (Protecting the Degen)
To address your fear that 'losses are used to benefit holders,' we set a strict Protocol Price Cap (e.g., $1.00 via ADRs).

This guarantees the Degen never overpays.

The Protocol only sweeps the floor if it is dirt cheap (e.g., $0.05).

The Narrative: 'The Protocol is finding the cheapest possible ammo to keep your entry fees low.'
This flips the script: The Protocol is exploiting the Holders (buying their cheap assets) to serve the Gamblers.

3. The 'Flywheel' Opportunity (Why we shouldn't use Ghosts)
While Ghost Units are 'safer' psychologically, they isolate R2E from the rest of Illuvium.

If we Sweep: High R2E Volume →→ High Marketplace Volume →→ DappRadar Charts pump →→ More Degens see the game.

If we use Ghosts: R2E Volume is high, but the blockchain looks dead.
We need the 'fake' volume of sweeping the floor to market the game to the rest of the world. It’s a marketing expense paid for by the entry fee.

4. Cash Flow vs. Resource Flow
Upcoming Sinks (XP/infusions...): Require the player to be 'deep' in the game to care. You burn asset A to get asset B.

**R2E Sink:** Converts Asset A directly into **ETH/Stablecoin** (via the sale).
This is massive for market health. It allows casual players to open a pack, pull a 'trash' unit, and sell it instantly to the Protocol to fund their next ADR.
It turns the floor from a 'Crafting Material' into 'Liquid Currency,' which is a much stronger incentive for new players to engage with the marketplace."
brittle burrow
# unkempt heron Hey guys! <@770826457923715082> and I have been working on the **Illuvium: Deat...

PROPOSAL: The "Support Slot" Solution (Saving the T1-T4 Economy)

I understand the decision to go with 1 Illuvial per Player for mobile performance and simplicity (100 units on screen is the limit).

However, a strict "1 Unit" rule creates a massive Economic and Gameplay Flaw:

1. The "T5 Meta" Trap: If I can only bring one unit, I will always bring a Tier 5. Tier 1-4 Illuvials become mathematically worse in high-stakes modes. We effectively kill 80% of our asset utility.
2. Zero Depth: Without Synergies, the game becomes a flat "Stat Check" (Rock-Paper-Scissors). It loses the "Auto-Battler" DNA.

The Solution: The "Support Slot" Mechanic (Invisible Units)
We can solve the performance constraint without killing the strategy.

On Screen: We still only render 1 Champion. (Mobile performance is safe).
In Loadout: Players must select 2 Support Units in the UI.

How it works (Code Only, No New Art):
The 2 Support Units are NOT rendered. Instead, they act as "Batteries" for the Champion.

Synergy Injection: The Champion synergizes with the Supports.
Example: An Umbre (Slayer) + Gyro (Slayer) + Dualeph (Steam) = Umbre gains the Slayer and Steam synergies.
Stat Injection: The Champion gains a % of the Supports' stats (e.g., +80% OP).

Why this is vital for the Economy:

Saves the Floor: Suddenly, a Tier 1 Axodon has value because it provides the "Harbinger Synergy" to a Tier 4 Mah'mut. T1s become valuable "Components."
Maintains Burn Velocity: We are burning 3 Assets per Entry instead of 1.
Strategic Depth: It creates a "Theorycrafting" meta. "Do I run a raw T5, or a T3 buffed by two specific T1 synergies?"

Note that there won't be any team composition friction for newcomers thanks to this proposal inspired by @undone sundial's idea #1451342958379925624 message

TL;DR:

A pure 1-Unit mode makes 80% of the collection worthless.
A "1 Champion + 2 Invisible Supports" mode keeps 100% of the collection relevant and triples the burn rate, with zero extra cost to performance. @shell mantle

unkempt heron
# brittle burrow **PROPOSAL: The "Support Slot" Solution (Saving the T1-T4 Economy)** I understa...

Playing with T5 is not sustainable. Either you end up losing it to permadeath or you are paying a lot of protection fees.

Both outcomes benefit the DAO:

  1. Burning a T5 generates scarcity and at some point a player will begin using lower tiered challengers or spend a lot of fuel to open ADRs for more T5s. --> good for the DAO.

  2. The player pays every single game the protection fee, thus enriching the prize pool, jackpot and DAO treasury. --> good for the DAO and the playerbase.

#

I rly liked your wheel idea and I am working on a system to gamify the combat booster selection via wheel spinning.

Ive read Ghamster and your proposal on how to avoid new starters to participate in deathmatch without having to acquire Illuvials beforehand. The fact that potential players have to own Illuvials to play deathmatch bugs me a bit too, due to onboarding friction. Ideally it should be frictionless but we know its not, and at the same time it only makes sense to force everyone to bring an Illuvial in for the sake of utility and ecosystem activity. Its a tough call, probably force them to own Illuvials but find ways to make that rly accessible.

undone sundial
# unkempt heron Playing with T5 is not sustainable. Either you end up losing it to permadeath or...

This is exactly why I proposed a hybrid approach. It’s an attempt to balance the strengths and weaknesses of both models rather than optimise purely for one side.
On one hand, full ownership requirements protect the ecosystem and give Illuvials utility. On the other, they introduce friction, complexity, and the perception that new entrants are being pulled into someone else’s asset economy. R2E audiences are extremely sensitive to that.

The hybrid idea is about sequencing and optionality. Keep the core loop simple, fast, and legible for degens, while still allowing ownership to matter for players who want deeper exposure and higher stakes. That way ownership becomes an opt-in amplifier, not a gatekeeper.

I don’t think we solve onboarding, revenue, and asset relevance by forcing everything into the MVP. We solve it by proving demand first, then layering complexity where it actually adds value.

brittle burrow
# unkempt heron --- I rly liked your wheel idea and I am working on a system to gamify the comb...

That’s awesome news on the Wheel system! Gamifying the boosters adds exactly the kind of variance this mode needs.

Regarding the T5 Economy and that 'tough call' on Onboarding Friction:

You're totally right that T5 burns and fees generate great yield for the DAO. My only thought on the strict 1v1 format is regarding the Gameplay Loop.
While RNG ensures the underdog always has a chance, 1v1 risks losing that core 'Auto-Battler' magic—the theorycrafting, the synergy-building, and the feeling that you outsmarted the opponent, not just out-rolled them (Even if you were just lucky).

This is actually why I think the 'Support Slot' (Champion + 2 Supports) concept we discussed might be the perfect fix here:

  • Restoring Depth: It brings back the fun of deck-building. A player can try millions of combinations.
  • Asset Utility: It ensures T1-T4s aren't just 'worse units,' but essential 'components' for the meta, keeping the whole collection relevant.

And regarding that 'Tough Call' on friction vs. ownership—I think the 'Protocol Proxy' (Draft Mode) is the answer you're looking for.

  • It lets us keep the Strict Ownership Requirement (The Protocol buys/burns 3 units per match).
  • But it completely hides the Wallet Friction from the new user (Fiat Entry).

It feels like combining those two concepts hits the sweet spot: Deep strategy for the pros, zero friction for the masses, and maximum burn velocity for the DAO.

rigid anvil
verbal pasture
#

Is the game mode made to even the odds of succes’s for all types of Illuvials? Like, can support and tanks be properly competitive against dmg type Illuviuals?

Also, it seems there were 2 aims with this gamemode. Revenue and a burn mechanism. Revenue clearly the main goal though.
The burn mechanism seems close to irrelevant here though, as it seems that we need to pick rather strong Illuvials to have an actual chance to win (unless I overestimate the Impact of levels and TPI). Might be just me, but if it is so, it actually keeps me from playing this. I dont want to gamble my good illuvials, but i would be happy to gamble money or the thousands of bad Illuvials I have. But I wont bother if they have no realistic chance of winning.
If this becomes a whales only/pay2win game where only good Illuvials wins, I think it will be doomed.

unkempt heron
brittle burrow
# rigid anvil For the Protocol Proxy. What happens when the floor rises and $0.10 cant buy you...

$1 ADRs are making the floor lower than $0.10 and the pool of illuvials could be filled with a 1 week reserve just in case

Worst case scenario the DAO could mint 10M illuvials for free since they won't ever be listed on the marketplace and will be burnt anyways, they won't have a negative impact on the economy and will just be there as an insurance

50% of players would get a value of around $0.03 but 10% will get the full $0.10 value, 1% will get $1 of value and 0.1% will get $10 of value @unkempt heron

unkempt scroll
surreal plank
#

Ok, so I’ll do devil’s advocate for this one.

This proposal has a lot of fundamental problems, and in its current state I don’t think it achieves any of the goals we’re supposedly aiming for.

Let’s start with the obvious one: this is barely a game.
I genuinely struggle to understand how anyone can frame the goal here as entertainment.

There is:

  • No player expression
  • No comeback mechanics
  • No clutch moments
  • No “I outplayed him” moments

So when players lose, the dominant emotion isn’t “I made a mistake”, it’s “the battle simulator screwed me”.
That’s a terrible emotional loop, especially when real money and NFTs are involved. And on top of that, this seems extremely boring to watch.
At least Arena is somewhat watchable for people who understand what’s going on. This isn’t.

Auto-combat works in RPGs with progression systems because:

  • Losses are soft
  • Growth is permanent

Here, a loss equals burned NFT + money gone.
And if you don’t want to lose the NFT, you’re forced into paying very high protection fees, which brings me to the second problem.

Prices are way too high (again)
In reality, this mode will be played in only two ways:

  • Risking trash Illuvials in the Skirmish F2P mode
  • Using top-tier Illuvials with protection in Conquest / Leviathan

Which raises the question I asked before in this thread. Who is the target audience?
Because it’s clearly not designed for the average Illuvial holder.

#

There’s no real understanding of player behavior
Illuvial holders are not emotionally ready to lose their hard earned top TPI/Max Level illuvials, So they’ll basically only send the weak ones unprotected.
But then why would anyone pay $10-$50 to enter a paid mode with a weak Illuvial?
They won’t.

So the only rational behavior is:

  • Risking trash illuvials in the Skirmish F2P mode
  • Using the most powerful illuvials with protection always

And since protection scales aggressively with power, this immediately turns into a whale-only mode. Which also completely kills the original idea of burning Illuvials.
Burning simply won’t happen at any meaningful scale except in the Skirmish F2P mode, because the players who can afford to play seriously will always protect their assets.

Which leads to an even bigger problem:

The monetisation is economically dangerous
The Skirmish mode, which is supposed to be high frequency, is fully DAO-funded.
I’m not convinced the paid modes can realistically generate enough to compensate the money given away for the F2P mode

Ironically, Skirmish is also the only place where Illuvials would realistically get burned, because players might gamble weak illuvials to try recoup some value. Everywhere else, protection kills that behaviour.

This whole thing has gotten way to complex for what it should be and the Credit bidding is just fake depth like Sota has already mentioned.

But the same applies to the long-term meta overall. Without mid-fight agency or dynamic balance levers, this becomes a solved system very fast, and balancing it will be extremely hard.

This is not Risk2Earn, it's gambling

  • Real money entry fees
  • Jackpots
  • Randomised outcomes
  • Premium spending to improve odds
  • No player agency during resolution

That’s not something most players will emotionally frame as “earning”, just gambling.

#

So basically in its current form, this game:

  • Isn’t fun to play
  • Isn’t fun to watch
  • Pushes out non-whales
  • Discourages actual Illuvial burning
  • Creates economic risk for the DAO

I'm all for trying to create illuvial sinks and demand, but I don’t think this version achieves the goals we’re aiming for, and I don’t think it’s aligned with how Illuvial owners actually behave at all.

verbal pasture
covert summit
# surreal plank **There’s no real understanding of player behavior** Illuvial holders are not em...

I always looked at this a gambling, like those “Casino Horse racing machines” I have referred to earlier, and that’s also ok, if that is what we aim for. And if that is the case, you have a good point in that we should not try to force burn mechanics and gameplay too much into this. although some can exist, but it should not be the main thing.

  • Entry fee, “Boosts”, and protection fees /needs to be significantly lower.
  • It needs to be easy to set up a new account and acquire “starter packs” with basic Illuvials.
  • The Gacha Wheel to make the games a bit interesting is a good idea.

We could consider making it a little bit more like a progression.. and with different “tables” you can choose to buy into, that has specific Tier requrements. So you can start with the “almost free” skirmish, that only requires a T0 Illuvial to enter, so you can try it out… and you should be able to buy a small pack for around 1$ (ideally buying from the Dex, random floor). If you like it you can start to bet on one of the other stages, and if you win you also get a higher tier Illuvial you can use to “gamble” with. I would suggest not burning Illuvial on the Carnage and Conquest modes, they should be more about the “prize pool” and getting people to eventually try Leviathan, where the higher risk/rewards will be.

So something like this…

Skirmish
No Fee, require a Iluvial T0+
Burn your Illivial,
Reward top 10 players with a new random T1 Illuvial

Carnage
Entry Fee, require a Iluvial T1-T3
No Burning of Iluvial
Reward top 10 players with “prize pool”. + random T3 Illuivial for top 3.

Conquest
Entry Fee, require a Iluvial T1-T5
No Burning of Iluvial
Reward top 10 players with “prize pool” + random T4 Illuivial for top 3.

Leviathan
Entry Fee, require a Iluvial T3-T5
Burning of Iluvial (top 3 and protected Illuvials are not burned)
Reward top 10 players with “prize pool”.

winged hawk
#

🦊 💡 Here is something really important to consider adding to the R2E Model | Illuvium. I realized that there is a delicate balance between giving the participants too much agency over the risked Illuvials, and having enough agency given to allow fairness and thrill, and to feel like your decisions matter. Here it is: 3 Main ways I believe players who risk Illuvials can gain agency without going too far are:

Having a choice of "which" Illuvial of theirs to pick.

Having a choice "where" in the Arena to drop in and parachute my Illuvial crate down based on wind currents unbeknownst to me (perhaps in the parachuting in phase is where the player gets a bit of "FULL AGENCY" participation until and to include final directional facing when it lands, then it's over for fully controlling it..... 🤔 ).

And finally, "When" to jump into the Arena. I believe this mode would draw much more attention if it were almost potentially ongoing as long as people keep dropping Illuvials into the mix.... It extends the timer. EVEN When the dome has collapsed all the way to the OBELISK The battle rages on until the last Illuvial stands for a certain time frame on its own.... .... THEN the TROPHY Crate is Released and Floats down and breaks open, and the Illuvial poses with the Trophy and fireworks, etc., and then pay out screen. UNTIL THEN ..... Battle rages on as long as another contestant drops an Illuvial .... Even if it comes down to 1v1 Slug Fests.... Or 2 Challengers jumping in at the same time, Or about how many can drop into ONLY The Obelisk at a time.... SCALE-wise, and what is practical for computer graphics processing terms.... (I bet max 6 Illuvials at a time in the OBELISK Pad is enough). Illuvinati

unkempt heron
winged hawk
brittle burrow
brittle burrow
#

PROPOSAL: The "Reactive Evolution" Mechanic (The Chaos Engine)

The Problem: The "Stat-Check" Bore
In a strict 1-Unit Meta, the outcome is often decided before the match starts.

  • A Tier 5 beats a Tier 1 95% of the time.
  • While this is "fair" economically, it is boring content. There is no tension, no "David vs. Goliath" story, and no reason for a Degen to bet on the underdog.

The Solution: The Arena is Mutagenic
We introduce a "Reactive Boost" system. Illuvials mutate based on what they are fighting.

  • The Logic: You don't get weaker (no siphoning). You adapt.
  • The Mechanic: Every time you hit an opponent, you have a chance to make it drop a stacking buff based on their affinity & class (the % should change depending on your Attack Speed).

How it works (Examples):

  • Fighting Fire? You absorb the heat. Gain +Attack Damage.
  • Fighting a Tank? You harden your skin. Gain +Resistance.
  • Fighting a Fighter? You reflexes sharpen. Gain +Attack Speed.
  • Fighting a Higher Tier? You gain the "Leviathan Slayer" buff (Damage amp).
  • Fighting a Dark Holo? Your potential is revealed. Gain + ALL STATS!

Why this creates "Spectacle" (The Narrative)
This turns every match into a dynamic story.

  • Start of Match: The T1S1 Rai starts attacking a busy T5S3 Phosphorus without being targeted. The weak fighter looks ridiculous compared to its target, the outcome looks obvious.
  • Mid Match: Luckily, Rai finished off the wounded Phosphorus just before it started targeting him and got a powerful AS boost. It starts growing larger (Stat Adaptation).
  • The Hook: "Can the giant kill the pest before the pest evolves enough to fight back?"
    It turns a stomp into a Race against Time.

The Balance: "Burst vs. Ramp" (Protecting the Whale)
Crucially, this does NOT make Tier 5s unplayable.

Tier 5 Identity: Massive Base Stats (Front-loaded power). They want to end the fight in 10 seconds.
Tier 1 Identity: Low Base, High Adaptation (Back-loaded power). They need to survive 30 seconds to stack enough buffs to compete.

The New Meta:

  • Whales can't just bring a T5 to stomp everyone.
  • Underdogs won't know until the very last second if they are going to be saved by a god boost or get crushed like they should.

Conclusion:

This mechanic solves the "Boring Meta" without having teams of 3 illuvials. It replaces "Static Math" with "Dynamic Chaos," which is exactly what a spectator sport needs.

What do you think? @shell mantle @unkempt heron

shell mantle
wooden shuttle
unkempt heron
#

The first version of Deathmatch will have a simple UX and will aim to onboard people from outside the ecosystem, mainly gamblers.

If this MVP picks up, it will give us the foundation, confidence, and resources to invest further in Deathmatch and create new modes that are more complex and aimed more toward traditional gaming rather than gambling. In those modes, we could add ideas like the ones you just mentioned, Sota.

That being said, we are reading every proposal you guys are making, and some of them really resonate with what we want to do. In that vein, we will most likely incorporate a simple wheel system based on your idea, as it is a clean solution that adds value at a low complexity cost and aligns well with the gambling side of things.

Another issue you guys mentioned that would be ideal to address is that out of ecosystem gamblers will not own Illuvials. A system that gives them instant ownership at the moment they purchase the entry fee could help. Rewards in the form of Illuvials, as suggested in Kirito’s idea, would also help. All of these issued Illuvials would be purchased by the DAO (with part of the collected fees) off the market and assigned to players and/or winners. This is another idea we are considering.

#

So, while theres huge potential for new cool gaming mechanics. For the time being and for the sake of MVP, we are aiming at ideas that are:

  • Simple.
  • Compatible with a gambler UX that doesn't know the ecosystem too much.
#

Btw, we might be removing the protection system, to equalize the risk and stakes for everyone.

And maybe, every so often, there'a a deathmatch without permadeath where everyone can bring in their top tier Illuvials at no risk.

late lion
# unkempt heron Hey guys! <@770826457923715082> and I have been working on the **Illuvium: Deat...

I suggest we add a simplest mode.
No complicated rules — just place bets, deploy creatures, and wait for results... with a ticket costing around $1.

High-ticket, high-reward modes can use complex rules for advanced players.
Low-ticket, low-reward modes could simply let casual players try their luck... Wouldn’t that be better?

Additionally, more viral marketing strategies could be incorporated. Currently, the design seems overly focused on mechanics, neglecting the marketing aspect.

unkempt heron
surreal plank
unkempt heron
unkempt heron
languid glen
# late lion I suggest we add a simplest mode. No complicated rules — just place bets, depl...

@unkempt heron Please leave some room for someone like me . I am not a fans of collecting, and not good at In-depth study of various rules, I just want to use some illuvials (not best and not trash.) to gamble some chance....I am sure most newbie who haven't experienced illuvium think the same way i do.

I have read all the comments above. I know you're concerning about the barrier to entry for new players, but the complexity of the game rules makes me, as a low-skilled player, feel intimidated. I don't think I can beat those players who are good at using the rules.

The barrier to entry for players who lacking illuvial is far less significant than the psychological barrier of believing they cannot win. Even if I were given a illuvial every day, I wouldn't feel confident enough to win under such complex rules using my free illuvials. However, if I felt I had a chance to win, I would find a way to acquire a illuvial myself.

It would be good if we can offer a simplest mode, $1 entry fee, no complicated rules. that would fit for someone like me to have a try and use my Mediocre illuvials to have some chance. Maybe i would go higher ticket mode when i feel i can handle the complicated rule and have comfident to win after some fights.

The barrier for new players is not the risk or whether they have illuvials, but the simple game rules and the confidence to win.

unkempt heron
brittle burrow
# unkempt heron The first version of Deathmatch will have a simple UX and will aim to onboard pe...

First off, I really want to say thank you Nil for being so open to this feedback. It’s genuinely refreshing to see a Game Designer who actually engages with the community’s wild ideas. Seeing the Wheel and Protocol Proxy being considered is huge—it gives me a lot of confidence in the direction of R2E. 🙂

I totally understand the drive for Simplicity and MVP. Complex combat mechanics can wait.

Regarding the Protection Mechanic:

I completely understand why you want to remove it—if insurance is too safe, the game becomes stale because Whales never lose.

However, if we remove it entirely, we risk a 'Trash Meta' where nobody dares to bring their high-level T5s, killing the spectacle.

Since we are moving to an Infinite Progression System (No Level 60 Cap), I think we have a unique opportunity to solve this by targeting XP instead of the NFT itself.

Proposal: The 'Vampire Economy' (XP Transfer) ⚔️

If we assume an Infinite/Uncapped Progression model (where XP matters indefinitely), we can use XP as the currency of risk.

1. The Transfer (Making Winning More Addictive)
The XP lost by the losers isn't just gone—it feeds the winner.

The Winner: Absorbs 50% of the XP lost by everyone in the lobby.
The Sink: 50% is burned forever (Deflation).

Result: Winning a Deathmatch isn't just about money; it’s the fastest way to Power Level.
A Level 40 Illuvial could enter, kill a Level 80, and leave as a Level 75.

Why this fits the Infinite Scaling Meta:
Since there is no level cap, players need a way to accelerate progression.

  • This incentivizes Whales to risk their Level 80 T5s. Yes, they risk resetting to zero, but they play for the chance to absorb the lobby and hit Level 75.
  • It turns 'Protection' from a safety net into a High Stakes Wager on your own power.

Why this fits your 'Simple MVP' goal:

  • No Complex Rules: It’s one rule for everyone. 'Kill to steal power.'
  • Solves the Whale Problem: Whales will bring their T5s because the Asset is safe (via Insurance), but they are still risking their 'Time/Grind.'
  • The 'Pinata' Effect: A Whale with high XP becomes a massive target. The F2P players want to kill him to absorb that massive XP drop.

Bonus

Whales buy xp more often, this is effectively a hidden entry fee that 100% goes to the DAO.

unkempt heron
unkempt heron
# brittle burrow First off, I really want to say thank you Nil for being so open to this feedback...

I think XP transfer during fight would be very difficult to implement and something slightly complex to keep track off UX wise.

However, this created a new idea. So I am trying to find a prize for Skirmish mode that doesn't drain DAO resources and is appealing enough for players. Initially I thought it would be Illuvials as a prize. So the winner gets the top 10 TPI challengers used in that match.

In skirmish everyone will use shitty Illuvials, so gaining 10 bad Illuvials is nothing crazy. Maybe, instead, we can issue XP packages as reward, and then you can infuse these XP packages to the Illuvials you want to lvl up.

prisma pebble
unkempt heron
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If we remove Protection, there would be some games from time to time "Permadeath Free" so that everyone can bring in their top Illuvials.

This solves the "nobody will risk the best Illuvials issue"

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And btw, that's not entirely true.

If you go into a 10K prize and you have a spare T5 S3, if everyone else puts in a trash challenger and you risk a strong challenger, the odds of you winning are much higher, so that's a feasible strategy to take into account.

brittle burrow
# prisma pebble If nobody will risks high lvl t5 without protection when protection mechanic is...

That’s a fair question, but the fact that we can Buy XP actually strengthens the case for protecting the NFT.

It comes down to Irreplaceability vs. Cost.

1. Scarcity vs. Commodity

  • The NFT: Is the 'Container.' A perfect-stat Dark Holo Tier 5 might be literally unique. If it burns, no amount of money can bring it back if there isn't another one for sale. That risk of Total Extinction keeps Whales out.
  • The XP: Is the 'Contents.' Since we can buy XP/Fuel, losing it is just a Financial Loss, not an Existential Loss.
    A Whale will risk $500 worth of XP (Fuel) to dominate a match.
    They won't risk an irreplaceable asset that took 6 months to find.

2. The 'Re-Buy' Revenue Loop

  • If they Burn the NFT: They might rage-quit the ecosystem because their collection is ruined. The revenue stream stops.
  • If they Lose the XP: They open their wallet and Buy Fuel to power-level back to the top.
    This turns the arena into a Recurring Revenue Engine for the DAO.
    We want them to 'Re-Buy' their power level every time they lose, just like a poker player re-buying chips.

3. The 'Chip Stack' Psychology
Since XP can be bought, it effectively becomes the Chips on the Table.

  • The NFT is the player's seat.
  • The XP is the stack of chips they risk.
  • If we wipe their XP (Reset), we are clearing the table and forcing them to buy more chips (Fuel) to keep playing.
  • The 'Vampire' mechanic works because they are trying to steal everyone else's chips (XP) to build the biggest stack possible without spending more money.

Conclusion:
Burning the NFT kills the 'Golden Goose.'
Burning the XP forces the Goose to keep buying food (xp) forever.

prisma pebble
vocal sinew
brittle burrow
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Will we be able to buy xp in the future? @unkempt heron
I think I've heard Kieran talk about it in the last townhall

unkempt heron
unkempt heron
unkempt heron
#

After reviewing the feedback on Deathmatch GDD V2, we have made the following updates to the document:

Removed Protection

  • It added unnecessary complexity and allowed whales to abuse their strongest Illuvials with no risk.
  • All game modes now feature Permadeath, but we will frequently create lobbies without Permadeath so that players can bring their strongest Illuvials safely.
  • In Permadeath games, only the winner and the Top 3 Executioners will be spared from burning.

Skirmish Mode no longer rewards $, instead it now grants XP Packages

  • Frees the DAO from using treasury funds to cover Skirmish prizes.
  • Provides players with a meaningful reward, as XP benefits any Illuvial collector.

Removed Placement Bidding

  • Introduced unnecessary complexity during the loadout phase with minimal player experience upside.

Adjusted entry fee tiers to: Free / $1 / $10 / $50

**Paid modes now allow players to either: **
Use an Illuvial from their own collection,
or

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Receive one for free (covered by the entry fee) from the marketplace floor and use it as the challenger for that match.

  • Enables non-ownership players to participate without needing to own Illuvials.
  • We will pair this option with a simplified Illuvidex UI, allowing players to directly purchase their desired Illuvial from the marketplace if they choose to do so.
  • Generates marketplace activity, as each entry fee has the potential to trigger a DAO purchase of an Illuvial from the marketplace.
  • The DAO purchases Illuvials from the marketplace floor specifically to burn them in Deathmatch, removing low-value Illuvials from circulation.

Shop system replaced by a Wheel system

  • Provides a more immediate, jump-to-action way to acquire combat boosters.
  • Aligns with gambling-style UX, making the experience more engaging.
  • Offers a gamified method to enhance a challenger’s combat performance while increasing the prize pool via spinning fees.

Feel free to take a more in depth look in the document if you haven't already: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TRqWSmcj2hLMaasticwzMSYWhG8n3KLc1EvtJLOmnT0/edit?tab=t.0#heading=h.9odbjf4grtyv

signal oracle
unkempt scroll
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non-owner player should not get illuvial for free covered by the entry fee. why should illuvials owner pay more than non-owner?

undone sundial
# unkempt heron Receive one for free (covered by the entry fee) from the marketplace floor and u...

I just want to say I genuinely appreciate the changes that have been made here.

This version is clearly more focused, more coherent, and a big step forward imo. Removing unnecessary complexity, tightening the scope, and addressing onboarding friction are all positive moves.

I still see some friction even in this version, but there’s no doubt this is a meaningful improvement on V1.

Thank you for taking our feedback onboard and making these changes.

surreal plank
unkempt heron
surreal plank
unkempt heron
unkempt heron
surreal plank
unkempt heron
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Everyone gets an illuvial for free with the entry price

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You choose to accept the offer and be obliged to use it in that match, or reject the offer and pick an illuvial of your choice from your collection

unkempt heron
surreal plank
unkempt heron
surreal plank
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wym I can choose?

unkempt heron
surreal plank
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so instead of spending $10 on an illuvial on the market I can just buy the entry and then select the illuvial I want?

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this would be the one hedge of ownership, so that players who already own illuvials don't have to bet money + purchase an illuvial. But this turns it completely upside down.

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I honestly don't know why we always like to complicate things so much. This could be so simple. Remove permadeath from this and introduce XP crates from burning illuvials and you have a solid healthy system.

unkempt heron
gray torrent
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Why is pricing gating tiers?
Can’t the pricing be separate from the tiers?

I feel like… if this is whole this is going to be pushed forward… that there should be low price modes where you can use t3-t5 or t1-t3

unkempt heron
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  1. You purchase an entry fee.
  2. You are offered an Illuvial by the system that you can choose to use. If yes, that's your Illuvial for the match. If not, the Illuvial is not purchased and nothing happens, but you then have to pick an Illuvial from your collection.
unkempt heron
unkempt heron
unkempt scroll
final cargo
unkempt heron
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There is no opportunity imbalance, just outcome imbalance if the player chooses to

unkempt heron
unkempt scroll
undone sundial
# unkempt heron Thank you all for providing the feedback. Please be vocal on the friction you a...
  1. DEX-sourced Illuvials

Using the DEX to source Illuvials for new players introduces a subtle but real psychological issue. Even if it’s economically sound, it risks new entrants feeling like their losses are indirectly serving as exit liquidity for existing holders. Paying the protocol feels expected and acceptable; paying other players by proxy is where negativity creeps in.

For R2E specifically, losses need to feel impersonal — to the house. Once another player becomes the implied beneficiary without taking equivalent risk, the psychological loop weakens. It doesn't fail, just weakens.

  1. Power Asymmetry via Levels / Holo Bonuses

This is where the gaming side of Illuvium starts bleeding into the R2E gambling side — and not in a good way.

Levels, stats, and Holo/Dark Holo bonuses introduce hidden complexity and perceived unfairness from the off. These systems work in a progression-based game, but they work against a gambling-first loop. Degens are comfortable with variance (wheels, randomness, ect), but they need outcomes to feel legible.

When progression systems, rarity multipliers, or hidden stats materially skew odds, it stops feeling like risk and starts feeling like insider advantage. At that point, players aren’t betting on an outcome — they’re betting against someone else’s prior time spent and knowledge. That’s a very different psychological contract, and typically a weaker one for retention.

There still appears to be an underlying desire for R2E to create demand for existing holders. That objective may be valid, but it’s still interfering with the design of a clean, low-friction R2E experience in V2. If R2E is meant to onboard and monetise degens, it needs to optimise for clarity, fairness, and immediacy — not legacy asset support.

unkempt scroll
undone sundial
unkempt scroll
rigid anvil
unkempt scroll
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the idea is we want to get rid our trash illuvials in our inventory for a chance to win some money

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how is it so hard to understand

unkempt heron
# undone sundial 1. DEX-sourced Illuvials Using the DEX to source Illuvials for new players intr...

Fair points, I would say that's part of the compromise.

  1. Is a very psicological element that I would argue we could accept.
  2. The assimetry and chaos in the entire fighting process is so high that you could say it's part of the nature of Deathmatch. But I agree with you and share the concern on the "unfairness" of ownership advantage.

You can also argue that the player that uses a strong illuvial is putting at stake much more than the entry fee. And now that protection is gone, the Risk is high, but the reward is high as well.

unkempt scroll
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no its not. It is entirely depends on how many participants in that match

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for someone to put up a stronger illuvials the number of participant need to be above a certain threshold

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first of all, you need to forget about maximizing revenue. u got it wrong. think about how to hook degens, and then the money will come

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do you think polymarket is getting 20% lol

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guys we need gambler to design this, i dnt think nil got it sorry man

vocal sinew
unkempt heron
dry marsh
# unkempt heron

How soon can we get a playable version of skirmish?

If it doesn't take much time or resources to put it together, I'd want to get a feel for the game mode so we can all collect data on this instead of just offering opinions on something that doesn't exist.

vocal sinew
unkempt heron
unkempt heron
dry marsh
unkempt heron
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That 10% means that out of all the expenditure made for a game, 10% will be allocated to the jackpot pool.

Those 1% and 3%s represent the odds of you actually winning the jackpot

unkempt heron
dry marsh
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The fact that it's cost effective makes me more inclined to just push this game mode forward and see how it affects things. Changes can always be made later if needed. At best, we increase funding for better game development and a way to burn illuvials. At worst, we expended a small amount of resource and development time, but we also collect data that can help with future development

unkempt heron
vocal sinew
# unkempt heron That 10% means that out of all the expenditure made for a game, 10% will be allo...

In the new proposal you released today, there are positive changes and I think we are making progress...

More than the overall content of R2E, what matters most for many degens is the money they can win and the probability of winning it—this includes the big jackpots.
I have no issue with the percentage of revenue the DAO earns; we all want the DAO to generate income. As fanatics or insiders, we will play this mode regardless, because we are both investors and players (at least that's how it is for me)

However, as you know, it’s different for outsiders. They will come to "raid" the pool, and most will likely leave frustrated, but that’s fine—that is exactly the purpose of this mode

  • Fast gameplay

  • If a player loses, they must be able to join a new lobby immediately

  • Continuously recurring lobbies

  • Jackpot odds must be updated (increased) and public percentages must be provided; every incoming player must know their odds

  •       -------------           Skirmish - Conquest - Carnage - Leviathan

**Entry Fee ** free - $1 - $5 - $20
Includes Illuvial no - T0-T1 - T2-T3 - T4-T5

In conclusion; keeping lobby fees low and increasing frequency maximizes not only the player count but also the DAO’s total revenue (Let’s set the prices while keeping in mind the fact that we can play this mode once every 5 minutes)

The brain chemistry of most gamblers is altered. Speaking sincerely as someone with a long history of gambling: when creating this mode, whether the game is "fun" or not is irrelevant. The simpler and faster it is, the more we sell the need for dopamine and the hope of a shortcut to money. People will come here for that

They aren't coming for a new Illuvial, a Leviathan team comp, or a rank on the Beyond leaderboard.... ofc, we can't know what the future holds; maybe we will gain many new players thanks to this mode. Therefore, I should state that I also have no problem with things like Illuvials to be obtained from rewards

full torrent
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I have been checking in on this chat and just wanted to put in my 2 cents.

  1. The rake for this seems too high. I worked in a casino and 10% rake is the standard on banker bets in baccarat and on most dice rakes. In poker the standard cash game rake is 10%, $1 for every $10 in the pot + $1 for promo when the pot reached $20 at the casino i worked.

  2. If you wanna do the fee pays for illuvial idea then people using their own illuvials should have reduced fee or reduced rake

unkempt heron
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  1. They have the chance to get the illuvial for free if they want to, should they accept, that would instantly be their challenger for that game, no other way around. If they want to select their own illuvial from their collection, the implicit cost is they don't get the Illuvial for free.

I honestly don't see how that is unfair.

full torrent
unkempt heron
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And the true incentive is to bring in strong Illuvials so that they overperfom low tier illuvials from people that didn't risk enough

full torrent
unkempt heron
full torrent
unkempt heron
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That would be a sweet problem to have tbf

covert summit
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I really like the updated version, it has some good improvements. 👍

The only thing I am still a bit unsure about is how the "get a free Illuvial" that gets purchased from the marked will work in practice... those will obviously not be the best Illuvials. But I also don't have any better idea at the moment.. as it has to be super easy to get those Illuvials for new players that wants to try it out.

brittle burrow
# unkempt heron 1) These are the updated distributions

If 10% for the DAO is low enough to attract degens and to allow pro gamblers (like me potentially) to have a positive expected value that's perfect 👌

Note that risking a powerful illuvial will increase the entry fee to the point where we probably won't have a positive expected value, so giving huge xp crates as rewards would offset that (after all we want to make our good illuvials stronger, we don't want to power boost bad illuvials)

You could create the narrative that we extracted 50% of our opponent's xp, xp amounts in crates would increase proportionally to the level of the illuvials

brittle burrow
# unkempt heron A pleasure Sota, thank you for being positive and providing interesting ideas al...

I have to say, the 'Instinct Wheel' mechanics are actually really sophisticated. The ability to lock wheels and build combos reminds me of Video Poker or Yahtzee—it adds a cool strategic layer that I wasn't expecting. It definitely rewards smart play.

However, I do wonder if that level of depth might be slightly too 'Brain Heavy' for the specific audience we are targeting (Mobile Gamblers/Degens)?

Reflecting on the 'Risk Profile' vs. 'Combo Building' approach:

1. Emotional Choice vs. Analytical Choice

  • The Instinct & Mutation System asks the player to analyze patterns and optimize math ('Should I pay to lock these 2 Fury icons?'). It’s very engaging, but it feels like a puzzle.
  • The 3-Wheel Concept (Safe / Whale / Degen) asks the player to choose an Identity. ('Am I playing safe today? Or am I going full Degen?').
  • For this specific crowd, I feel like choosing a 'Vibe' allows for faster, more impulsive decision-making than solving a 'Puzzle.'

2. The Drama of 'Shattering' vs. 'Locking'

  • While 'Locking Wheels' is a great gold sink, it feels a bit transactional.
  • I feel like the 'Shatter' mechanic (risking the destruction of the item to get a better roll) creates higher-stakes drama for spectators. Watching a streamer risk everything on a reroll is a massive 'Clip Moment' that a calculated 'Lock' might miss.

Suggestion:
Do you think there’s a way to keep the polish of your proposal but simplify the flow back to that '3 Risk Tiers' structure?
It feels like giving them fewer, more dangerous buttons might actually drive higher spend because it taps into their adrenaline rather than their logic.

verbal pasture
# unkempt heron And the true incentive is to bring in strong Illuvials so that they overperfom l...

Do we really believe though, that a lot of people are willing to gamble with their good Illuvials, with the risk of losing it?

Again I have no idea how much impact TPI, levels and other bonuses will actually have, but I fear we will see a scenario where you will need a high tier, high level and high TPI illuvial to have a realistic chance of winning. And this will scare off too many people. I for one would not want to risk a 90+ TPI levelled up T5. One the other hand I don't want to buy entry either to throw in a scrappy Illuvial, if I feel the chance to win is too unrealistic.

I feel like there is a mismatch between the wish to create revenue and to create a burn mechanism/permadeath. For me it seems like its only creating a very suboptimal risk vs reward if we a pushing for ppl needing to field very good Illuvials (unless we see very very high jackpots). Keep in mind, our wish for/need to burn stuff is for my 5000 crap illuvials, not my 200 good ones..

unkempt heron
unkempt heron
# verbal pasture Do we really believe though, that a lot of people are willing to gamble with the...

I feel contradiction in your message.

If in order to have a chance at winning you gotta play a high ownership illuvial, that means most players are already doing so, which is a win for the design.

If not, nobody is risking their good illuvials and everyone has the same chance at winning with a trash Illuvial.

What I am trying to say is, it all really depends on each risk profile. You might go with the best illuvial you have and not win, or win with shitty illuvial which had some good boosters and lucky positioning in the fight.

brittle burrow
# unkempt heron Hey Sota, I was looking forward to this. Can you elaborate on shatter? Is that...

1. The 'Shatter' Mechanic (High Stakes Reroll)
Currently, if a player rerolls a bad result, they usually just pay a fee. It’s a transaction.
Shatter introduces the risk of Total Loss to the reroll.

  • The Scenario: I spin a wheel and get a 'Silver Buff' (+10% Dmg). I am greedy. I want the 'Gold Buff' (+20%).
  • The Action: I hit the 'Unstable Reroll' button.
  • The Risk: There is a cumulative chance (e.g., 10%) that the wheel SHATTERS.
  • The Consequence: If it shatters, I go into battle with ZERO buff.
  • Why: This creates massive tension. A player isn't just spending credits; they are risking their safety. Watching a streamer risk a 'Good' power-up to chase a 'God' power-up—and ending up with 'Nothing'—is incredible content.

2. The '3 Risk Tier' Structure (UI Simplification)
By '3 Risk Tiers,' I mean condensing the entire boosting experience down to 3 Distinct Wheels that represent the player's mindset, rather than managing 4 separate 'Instinct Reels' like a slot machine.

Instead of trying to line up combos across 4 columns (Puzzle), the player just selects One Wheel based on their risk tolerance:

🟢 The Safe Wheel (Cost: 100):
Odds: 70% chance of a Small Buffs. 25% chance of a Medium Buffs. 5% chance of Massive Buffs. No debuffs.
For: Conservative players.

🟡 The Whale Wheel (Cost: 300):
Odds: 70% chance of Medium Buffs. 20% chance of Massive Buffs. 10% chance of God Buffs. No Debuffs.
For: Players who want to Pay-to-Win safely.

🔴 The Chaos Wheel (Cost: 100):
Odds: 45% Massive Buff / 50% Massive Debuff / 5% God Buff.
For: The Underdog/Degen who needs a miracle to win.

The Difference in Flow:

  • Your Proposal (Instincts): Spin wheel 1 →→ Evaluate outcome →→ Spin wheel 2 --> Analyze combos --> Spin wheel 3 --> Analyze combos --> Spin wheel 4 --> Analyze combos --> Re-spin a wheel --> Evaluate outcome --> Pay to Lock wheel 1 & 2 →→ Spin Again →→ Calculate Bonus. (Feels like a Strategy Game).
  • My Suggestion: Choose Risk Profile (Safe/Whale/Chaos) →→ Spin →→ Evaluate outcome --> Re-spin →→ Evaluate outcome. (Feels like a Casino Game).

I think for mobile, the One-Click nature of the 3-Tier system fits better than the multi-step Combo building.

rigid anvil
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To me this is the way.

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I know the system will give me an Illuvial if I don't want to buy one but it will be a lame Illuvial so I would want to buy one but buying and Illuvial just for it to be burned is lame to me. Let me bet $1 and a chance to play with a Sear and then let me spin a wheel that could buff him and then a chance to win a big prize pool 🙏

unkempt scroll
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include illuvium is just a bad idea.
you need to reconcile part of the money used to buy from marketplace, partly to dao, partly to prize pool and partly to jackpot. the pot size need to be shown for players to make decision

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and this is just punishing illuvials owners. we all know most of the players will be existing holders.

rigid anvil
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If most of the players are Illuvial owners already then this game has failed. This game should be the low hanging fruit for new people to enter the ecosystem. At least half the modes should cater 100% to gamblers who don't own Illuvials. The dao sweeping the floor to give Illuvials to new players sounds like a cool idea but to new players but I think it will end up feeling bad . Gamblers just want a fun way to gamble a little bit of money

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@shell mantle after reading the feedback and Nil's new GDD what are your thoughts?

unkempt scroll
rigid anvil
unkempt scroll
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a low hanging fruit would be to go to rollbit, stake or any site faze bank is promoting

unkempt scroll
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i mean if u want more fun u can try kalshi and watch the result with your friends at a bar

image.png
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or with the wife while watching oscar on the couch.
like think about for a second, why would a degen login to their PC, create a "passport" then study about some list of monster creatures and bet money on it?
think about it

frozen quarry
unkempt scroll
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meanwhile they can bet on tim to win oscar with 78% chance after winning a golden globe

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and look u can already see the payout

image.png
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is this fruit low enough for you ser?

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no one: "oh look a new gambling. im just gonna spend the next 5 hours studying about 150 different creatures each with their own attacks, special move, traits and levels. and then i just have to calculate the payout based on people who enter the lobby with me before this clock ticks out. oh it's asking me if i want to accept a random monster i just found out few hours ago OR buy one from the market."

undone sundial
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Alternative R2E idea: separate asset risk from betting risk. Illuvial owners submit their Illuvials into BR matches, and anyone can place bets on outcomes like winner, first to die, most kills, top 3, etc. Owners earn a cut of the bets placed on their Illuvial, while bettors don’t need NFTs or deep game knowledge. This massively lowers onboarding friction, aligns with proven gambling models (horse racing / esports betting), and lets the market naturally price strength via historical performance and odds. Illuvium takes a rake on all bets, matches are fully watchable and streamable, and Illuvials become productive sporting assets rather than forced sinks.

No burning. No buying. Just betting.

I’m not saying we shouldn’t explore what @unkempt heron has put forward, but this feels like a simpler starting point worth testing first to see if demand actually shows up.

We could even make it so only the top 100 gauntlet players can submit illuvials to the R2E mode. This would certainly drive activity in gauntlet

gusty yew
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okay.. what about this..
DM is entirely autonomous - even the picks

Game starts every 10 minutes. All people need to do is bet on which illuvial will win.
Odds are created by betting favourites.
P.s You'll need a kitty pool to backup payments

languid glen
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@unkempt heron About free Illuvial from dex.
I am not sure when have to pay the entry fee, maybe we can try this: Choose a Mode and a Challenger Illuvial----->pay the fee------>loadout phase
if you choose a illuvial from dex floor, then you pay both the entry fee and illuvial fee, may be $1.0X

or may be we can offer a mini ADR with only one illuvial as an option or just put a ADR option and Automatically choose the best TPI one .

unkempt heron
#

GM guys,

The concern:

If I come from outside the ecosystem as a gambler to try this out and I play a few matches an realize the gap between my challenger, who ended up 80th and a top 10 challenger, I see that we both used an atlas, but mine was lvl 1 & 35 TPI and his was level 39 and 64 TPI. This imbalance could do me two things:

  • a) Make me Ragequit Deathmatch.
  • b) Make me gain interest for the ecosystem and Illuvials.
    In the case of a, fuck no good. In the case of b, sure that's nice, but remember I am a gambler, not a player, so I don't have the dedication to seek a good Illuvial and even less to level it up. So I will most likely end up not doing it, or in the best case purchasing illuvials off of the marketplace.

All of the above has a lot of "ifs" and "friction" that is definitely not good for onboarding and "gambling fairplay" in Deathmatch.

For that, I have been thinking that the best solution would be to have some modes be non-ownership, and some others, be ownership. Non-ownership is great here because it levels the playing field between Illuvial holders and new starters. But, it also is great because it incentivizes players to use shitty level shitty TPI Illuvials and send them to the "burner" at a fair and more equal chance of actually winning a good prize.

Then, some other games are Ownership enabled, where Illuvial collectors get to showdown their best challengers. We could make some of these ownersehip matches be "Permadeath" and some others "No Permadeath".

So essentially, making some matches become non-ownership, we severly increase the fairness at anyone being able to win and we encourage shitty Illuvials usage and burning.

#

Also:

Please take a deep look at section 2.6 (Combat Booster Wheels), how it works, its complexity and its general design.

For clarity, when I say "wheels" I am actually talking about slot machines like the one in the image. So you make that spin and the outcome gives you combat boosters.

My main doubt is if 2 machines (one with 4 wheels and one with 3 wheels, like in the current design) will be too much complexity, and maybe going with just 1 slot machine with 4 wheels could be enough. Or if you think the machines are different, compelling and simple enough to keep them both.

image.png
languid glen
#

what you should do is ordinary TPI + best wheels+ good luck defeat high tpi + ordinary wheels + bad luck.
TPI and lvl should not be the most important thing, luck should

unkempt heron
# languid glen what you should do is ordinary TPI + best wheels+ good luck defeat high tpi + or...

I agree, but balance wise it is nearly impossible to achieve, and there's a TON of variables that make it completely impossible to properly estimate. The agro is random, and that already makes it all very chaotic. However, from a feel standpoint, when a gambler compares his challenger with another, and sees the other has 2x stats than his, he will be discouraged. Is a feeling thing above all else.

languid glen
#

as a gambler, what i should Pursuit is not better TPI or higher lvl, what i should Pursuit is may be i would more lucky next time.

unkempt heron
languid glen
#

I mean you should make luck more important then lvl and tpi

unkempt heron
#

50 / 50 ratio means, half of the games with ownership bonus, half without.
80 / 20 ratio means, 4/5 games with permadeath, 1/5 without.

languid glen
#

how can i know which game is which?

unkempt heron
#

We will show in the Mode UI

languid glen
#

that would make things Complicate

unkempt heron
#

Or just create a different mode name

languid glen
#

but i think it's a good idea to do market test like this during beta.

undone sundial
# unkempt heron Also: Please take a deep look at section 2.6 (Combat Booster Wheels), how it wo...

With regards to your concern, it’ll come as no surprise that I share it. The primary objective of R2E is sustainable revenue. That means attracting new participants and keeping them engaged within R2E itself. It is not, and shouldn’t be, about onboarding players into the wider Illuvium ecosystem.

Any design choices that introduce friction or complexity in service of ecosystem onboarding directly undermine that objective. In practice, the outcome is binary: either the player rage quits, or they drift into other parts of the ecosystem that generate little to no meaningful revenue. Both outcomes are failures from an R2E perspective.

languid glen
#

There are 100 Hamlets in 100 people's eyes. There are too many ideas and creativity here. Most of us do not have professional skills and can only make suggestions based on our personal ideas. I think this is actually harmful. It would be better to launch a basic version MVP as soon as possible, and continuously adjust the mode and functions on this test version, and let the market data feedback explain the problem.

#

personally , i like burning, i like gambling, i dont like complicate, i have some ordinary tpi want to try my luck.I can only speak for myself

unkempt heron
languid glen
#

what is ownership bonus?

unkempt heron
languid glen
#

free illuvial for skimish is OK, but the others should no, no one would try to use a floor illuvial to win a game. that would be lowest TPI + best wheel + best luck. the only way to get a prize.

unkempt heron
#

So that everyone is incentivized to use trash TPI and trash Lvl Illuvials. It helps collectors burn garbage at a chance to win something, and it helps new commers to have a more leveled playing field since everyone is playing with garbage units.

languid glen
#

that sounds good to me.

#

that would only luck depends everything.

#

so T1S1 have the same power as T5S3?

#

how about ownership bonus camage "YES"
make conquest for newbie gambler camage for Advanced gambler

unkempt heron
unkempt heron
#

But as you say, this should be fine tuned based on demand, this is just a guess.

languid glen
#

no ownershop bonus is good for newbie.
so just be it now.....let's do quick build and release a mvp ASAP please....
I want to fight.

#

quick quick quick...go go go ....

#

you can have a TEST mode, you can put all the other idea what to Test market reaction in this mode.

unkempt scroll
#

so where are these non-ownership players that won $250k? Have they spent $250k in illuvium products?

#

What happened to the "lets not split the playerbase shall we?"

#

You really think we gonna have thousands of degens flocking through the gates of the great Illuvials Deathmatch?

#

Lets start to be reasonable here.
lets just ship an MVP for the community and see if theres any traction AND THEN think about a bigger product

#

uve got like 18 months? And we are still here, weeks, bantering on what to make of the R2E?

brittle burrow
unkempt heron
unkempt heron
surreal plank
#

this is starting to derail again. This was initially sold to council as something to tap into the 44k illuvial owners. But now it's no longer that, and apparently is to attract outside gamblers. We can't even make our own community happy, why do we even think this will attract outside gamblers when there's so many gambling options out there that are simpler and way higher dopamine hits?

brittle burrow
# unkempt heron I like it, there are some good ideas in the proposal. I want to simplify the en...

One quick thought on the UX for the power-up gamification:

I’d lean heavily towards a Wheel (or CS:GO style horizontal scroll) rather than a Slot Machine or Reels.

From a Degen/Spectator perspective, the Wheel is King because of the 'Deceleration Drama.' 😱

  • Visualizing the Odds: You can physically see the 1% God Buff slice, which makes the 'Near Miss' feel much more addictive ('It was one tick away! I have to spin again').
  • The Sweat: Watching the flapper slow down creates a shared moment of tension for streamers and chat, whereas Slots can feel a bit too binary and algorithmic.

It just feels punchier for a mobile experience where we want that one big dopamine hit before the match starts.

unkempt heron
vocal sinew
# unkempt heron

Dear Nil,

I’m not quite sure which concerns led to the idea of removing the ownership feature. Let me reiterate: our focus should simply be on clearly communicating how new players can increase their winning odds in a straightforward way.

We need to simplify the impact of assets: for example, a 90+ TPI Illuvial provides +10 power, a Holo gives +20, and a DH gives +50. By making these advantages transparent, we create a clear incentive. Then, we implement an algorithm that encourages players to acquire these specific Illuvials from the market to test their luck

The goal isn't to remove ownership, but to make the 'path to winning' so clear that even a casual gambler knows exactly what they need to buy to compete

In other words, even a level 1 Atlas must feel like it has a chance—I don't know exactly how, but that chance must be felt. The rest is up to the algorithm; that’s the bottom line. Removing the ownership bonus would just be repeating what we've been doing in the Arena for the past year.

Some degens will come, loot the jackpot and regular rewards without making any proper investment, and then leave without looking back once they get the profit they want.

We are going to make this product addictive and transparent... the ownership bonus should not be removed. I’m not against things like gifting Illuvials to new players, nor am I against the DAO sweeping Illuvials at floor prices; I honestly don't understand those who are against it

unkempt heron
# vocal sinew Dear Nil, I’m not quite sure which concerns led to the idea of removing the own...

Thanks for the message SirDexter,

I agree with you that ownership should be rewarded. However, having some modes without it acts as both a nice onboarding ramp for players that get to know the ecosystem for the first time & also existing collectors that have bad illuvials and want to have a decent chance at winning.

If we have ownership always activated, a lvl 1 atlas with low TPI has 1 in a Trillion chances to win against other illuvials at lvl 30+ with high TPI.

While that should absolutely be a scenario in some matches, I would find helpful to have some other games without ownership active, to enable everyone to toss their worst assets there at a decent chance to win, not a nearly impossible chance like it would otherwise be.

vocal sinew
#

What I mean is, after the degens test the waters in non-ownership rooms, they should eventually feel compelled to enter ownership rooms—perhaps attracted by higher rewards or simply out of curiosity to see what it's all about

unkempt heron
surreal plank
vocal sinew
#

I’m not entirely sure if this conflicts with the idea of keeping names hidden during matches, but it doesn't seem like a bad idea at all..
more simply, there should be something like a leaderboard or a scoreboard. For a degen, these things are crucial: those statistics, who won how much, how they won, which Illuvial is slightly luckier, and so on

But that's the thing when ownership is out of the picture, a degen might play 30 or 40 random games a day. We either need to find a way for players with ownership to keep up with them, or we need to build this entire concept around the rooms where ownership is required; I'm not sure 🤷

eager otter
#

@unkempt heron, i like what SirDexter suggest here : i think Leviathan Permadeath mode at 20$ is better because ppl have to risk their 50-500$ illuvials + Wheel of fortune. And Carnage at 5$ from my pov is better too, caus' i'll do much more 5$ bet than 10$ bet. I think that placing several small bets creates more retention than placing large ones from time to time. And we can have the whale leviathan mode with protect at 50$

Capture_decran_2026-01-13_140551.png
half hawk
#

Allowing players to enter without owning Illuvials will, frankly, show a completely parallel trend to the fact that those who received the 250k rewards distributed in this season’s arena did not put any money into the ecosystem. I find this idea very unreasonable. You need to make players committed to your game; no one should be able to earn money without taking any risk or making any investment, and then just walk away and forget the game.

surreal plank
unkempt heron
unkempt scroll
#

it is called RISK to EARN

R-I-S-K

unkempt heron
surreal plank
#

@unkempt heron I have 4k illuvials sitting on my wallet collecting dust. Give me a way to gamble them and I will gladly gamble all my dupes so I can try get some value out of them.

There's 2.25 million illuvials and less than 4% are listed on the market. So I'm sure there's a lot more players out there that will be on the same boat as I am.

I get that you want to make this appealing for outside players as well but we have a real addressable market we can tap into, we just need to make this right.

image.png
rigid anvil
vocal sinew
# rigid anvil This mode and Arena are totally different games and in this mode Gamblers gamble...

The core objective should be this: play to win someone else's money or play to seize someone else's valuable Illuvial. Actually, we are not that far apart... Ownership should be at the very heart of this game mode, not just a side feature

  • If a degen acquires a valuable Illuvial (for example, one won through gameplay against another player), they should feel that their luck factor has increased, creating a continuous dopamine feedback loop.. Yes, we said let’s simplify it — but not to that extent. If it turns into something like “are you putting your money on red or black?”, then what’s the point of all of this?
unkempt scroll
undone sundial
unkempt scroll
#

the idea is for illuvials owners to burn their trash illuvials for a chance to win some stables, now you want to offer a mode to a market that likely doesnt exist?

#

maybe take more time to think it through before you type

vocal sinew
undone sundial
# surreal plank <@413338966952247296> I have 4k illuvials sitting on my wallet collecting dust. ...

I think this exposes a fundamental flaw in the premise.

First, it assumes that existing Illuvium holders are gamblers. They aren’t. Many are collectors, gamers, or long-term believers who are already experiencing purchase fatigue. Designing R2E primarily as a way for them to “gamble their dupes” is a category error.

Second, it shifts the priority away from what R2E actually needs to succeed: external, sustainable revenue (new money). Recycling value within an existing player base that has already spent heavily does not solve the revenue problem — it will be constrained by fatigue and likely accelerate disengagement.

R2E should be designed to attract people who haven’t already bought into Illuvium, not to extract one more round of spend from those who already spent thousands. Otherwise we’re just monetising exhaustion, not building a new revenue engine.

Utility for existing holders can be layered on later, but if it becomes the primary design constraint, the mode is inward-facing by default — and that’s exactly what R2E can’t afford to be.

You do this... R2E will fail imo.

unkempt heron
rigid anvil
# unkempt scroll let me explain it to you slower. Doing a non-ownership mode is a bad idea and we...

bro the difference with this mode is revenue is generated through rake. If you don't have gamblers willing to bet money to play then all you have is players with illuvials who want to win stable coins which will cost the DAO money which is what arena did and is what it sounds like you are promoting. The reason a gambler would come here is because where else can you gamble and have digital creatures fight for you to win the prize money? its a cool concept which would be unique and could work if done right and onboarding is easy. skirmish can still cater to illuvial owners where they risk trash illuvials to win XP but once you start putting up money to gamble this is where previous ownership should take a back seat.

rigid anvil
surreal plank
# undone sundial I think this exposes a fundamental flaw in the premise. First, it assumes that ...

you're not wrong. I'm just saying I don't see an easy path luring in outside gamblers into this, and there's at least for now a much more approachable audience, that contrary to what you said, I believe is very much prone to gambling, even if they're gamers/collectors you don't need dupes unless it's for trading/selling.

Sure the community might be experiencing purchase fatigue but this would give a use case for their assets for the time being. They can simply use this to try get XP crates and improve their collection without spending a single dime.

rigid anvil
surreal plank
undone sundial
# surreal plank you're not wrong. I'm just saying I don't see an easy path luring in outside gam...

If there’s genuinely no belief from you or from others on Council that an R2E product can bring in new external money, then I honestly question why we’re doing it at all.

At that point it stops being a revenue strategy and becomes an internal utility play: existing holders recycling value to feel productive. That might ease some frustration, but it does nothing for the actual problem we’re facing. Illuvium isn't making money!

Right now Illuvium’s only meaningful objective should be increasing runway and establishing a sustainable, external revenue stream. Anything that doesn’t clearly serve that goal is, frankly, noise.

If R2E can’t be designed to focus on attracting capital from outside the current ecosystem, we’re better off being honest about that and not dressing it up as a solution to anything meaningful. It'll just be something else to do while the runway continues to bleed out.

surreal plank
#

you have a much higher chance of this being successful within the community than pitching this to the outside.

#

if from the 44k illuvial owners 1% of them interact with this it's already higher than the Arena playerbase.

undone sundial
undone sundial
#

And trust me, I'm not a popular guy

vocal sinew
#

Nil said they would use an existing game engine anyway, so it was something like this... Therefore, he mentioned there wouldn't be much expense; I'm not a financial expert. If someone from the team says there won't be much expense while creating this game, I believe them.

if the rest is about creating a sustainable resource for the MMO, I support it. Whether this game is gambling or not doesn't matter much to me. Life itself is a gamble... there's no need to overthink it; the discussions here are getting a bit too long. It's been the same things under every topic for years. Let's not lose the context.

I am saying it again: if there is no ownership, it's a mistake, and atleast both sides should be understood well to create 50/50 rooms

surreal plank
#

we need those lobbies to fill to make the prize pools attractive. So I would say start by aiming for the community and then if it's working we try expand this.

unkempt scroll
#

oh yeah im so gonna gamble on doka

4fd720f82872bc6b245bea5d96819cab_screen.png
eager otter
#

It's a new concept that doesn't demand a lot of work. Big jackpot will attract ppl, a 1$ lobby filled with 1000 ppl could be fun and entertaining with someone getting lucky and get a 1-10k jackpot. If it's streamable that would be fun to watch. It can attract gamers and gamblers. I'm a gamer and a gambler so why not? It could add more fun than a slot machine. It's feels more like pokers lobby.

rigid anvil
unkempt scroll
rigid anvil
#

you were talking about skirmish

unkempt scroll
#

tell which one of these modes have prize pool paid by the dao?

unkempt scroll
#

im sorry if you need me to go slower we can take this into dm so other people dnt need to read your confusion

rigid anvil
# unkempt scroll oh yeah im so gonna gamble on doka

Looks dumb as fuck and every casino website has this. No one has fighting digital creatures. I will end our convo with agreeing with you. Ship the MVP and let's see if we have anything first then listen to feedback and go from there

brittle burrow
unkempt scroll
#

ok seriously, it lacks visual and audio effect to induce dopamine

#

if u play genshin impact, u may get seizure just by watching the battle animation

brittle burrow
#

I want to play when I see a picture like this

eager otter
#

Is there a bounty ko reward like in poker except buff? Like that not only Top 10 get rewards

winged hawk
# gusty yew okay.. what about this.. DM is entirely autonomous - even the picks Game starts...

I like that other people are feeling cool with a sort of "Ongoing" mode where the party essentially never stops .... And who knows... Someone's Rhamphy might go for like 60+ full rounds.... 600 minutes later.... the owner is still watching.... streaming.... A marathon of streaming! Days of streaming.... A team of streamers working around the clock to keep pace with the little hero that could!

gusty yew
# winged hawk I like that other people are feeling cool with a sort of "Ongoing" mode where th...

Sorry i should of been more clearer..

That suggestion would not require any ownership or cost of entry (maybe a pass could be offered for purchase so people to partake in?). Chosen illuvials for deathmatch would be autonomous. All a person does is bet on who they think will win. Odds would change based on the bets made (similar to digital horseracing TAB TRACKSIDE/ ZED RUN).
You wouldnt have 100 illuvials but maybe 10-20-30. After a round is completed. Give a limited time to place bets before the next battle is simulated. It would be something that continuesly runs in the background making it easier & simplier for R2E players to partake in

shell mantle
#

We have to have ownership, otherwise the game breaks. We need to have a super easy path to be able to purchase an illuvial or do a drone run, directly in the UI. New players will find that interesting so search for their warrior. I understand it adds some friction for new players who don't have characters already, but its pretty normal in games to acquire a character before you play. We also want to burn illuvials, so having people acquire existing illuvials would be preferred, plus provides liquidity to existing holders

undone sundial
# shell mantle We have to have ownership, otherwise the game breaks. We need to have a super ea...

I think this approach is trying to solve too many problems at once. It needs a clear identity. Either it’s an outward-facing, gambling-first product designed to generate new revenue with minimal friction, or it’s an inward-facing game designed to create utility for existing Illuvial holders. Those are fundamentally different goals with different design requirements. Trying to make it do both at the same time risks compromising both, and risks the mode never fully working for either audience.

undone sundial
#

A genuine question we need to answer clearly:

In your mind who is this R2E mode actually for @shell mantle?

Because if the assumption is that the existing community is suddenly going to start dropping thousands of dollars gambling here, I really don’t think that’s realistic. That audience is already capital exhausted and invested. Surely R2E only works if it brings in new money.

gusty yew
#

Having an online reaction from a player slipping up on a hotkey, losing thier illuvial - priceless xD

#

could it be possible to open up a betting platform for the game? my guess youll need a gambling license for it.. would one even be needed for the mode being created?

languid glen
#

Guys please, stop wasting so much energy and creativity on lowering the barrier . Focus on whether it's fun first. If it's fun, people would love it , then we can consider how to lower the barrier. This game doesn't need to attract the whole world from the start. Let's make it fun for us first.

#

MVP first, then quickly build and iterate step by step....
first we prove that people love it, then do marketing and lower barrier to attract new players..

rigid anvil
#

Alright let's pass this proposal and get an MVP we can all try playing!

half canopy
#

There are a lot of ideas and comments in this thread. Sharing the most important one here so you can all catch up:

1. The "Degen" vs. "Gamer" Identity Crisis
There is a fundamental clash over who this mode is for. Is it a high-stakes casino for external gamblers who want fast dopamine hits, or is it a utility layer for existing players to burn their "trash" Illuvials?
Key Vibe: "Degens want speed and odds; gamers want strategy and ownership."

2. Friction is the Enemy
A major point of contention is how a new player enters the game. The "vibe" from critics like Jaganite is that asking a gambler to learn 100+ creatures and buy an NFT just to place a $1 bet is a "friction nightmare" that will kill the mode on arrival.

3. The "Ownership" Dilemma
Nil’s proposal to allow "free" Illuvials via the entry fee sparked a firestorm.
The Fear: It punishes loyal holders who paid for their assets.
The Counter: Without it, the game has no "new money" onboarding path.

4. "Shatter" and High-Stakes Drama
Sota’s suggestion of a "Shatter" mechanic—where you risk losing a buff entirely to chase a better one—introduced a "high-risk, high-reward" vibe. This moves the game away from boring math and toward "clip-worthy" streamer moments.

5. The "Digital Cockfighting" Aesthetic
The community is pushing for better visual feedback. The vibe is that watching two static creatures punch each other won't cut it in 2026. They want "Genshin-level" effects, roaring crowds, and a sense of "spectacle" to trigger dopamine.

#

6. "Exit Liquidity" Paranoia
GHamster highlighted a psychological hurdle: new players might feel like they are just providing "exit liquidity" for old whales. To succeed, the losses need to feel like they go "to the house" (the protocol) rather than directly into a whale's pocket.

7. Complexity vs. "One-Click" Gambling
There is a strong vibe that the current "4-reel slot machine" for boosters is too "brain heavy." The consensus is leaning toward a 3-Tier Risk System (Safe/Whale/Chaos) to allow players to choose a "vibe" rather than solve a puzzle.

8. The "Burn" Mandate
Regardless of the gambling mechanics, the community is desperate for a "sink." The vibe is: "I have 5,000 duplicate Illuvials collecting dust; let me gamble them into oblivion for a chance at a jackpot or an XP crate."

9. Survival vs. Revenue
A darker vibe underpins the chat: Runway. Some members (like GHamster) feel that if R2E doesn't bring in "new money" from outside the ecosystem, it's just "monetizing exhaustion" and won't save the project's finances.

10. The "MVP Now" Urgency
Taker and others are exhausted by the "18 months of bantering." The overwhelming vibe at the end of the thread is: Stop talking, ship a Minimum Viable Product (MVP), and let the market data tell us if we're wrong.

rigid anvil
undone sundial
prisma pebble
static knoll
#

My current thoughts as someone who actively plays every Illuvium game and not just the IlluviDex:

Positives:

  • Popular game mode
  • If it looks good, it can make for entertaining content.
  • Sink for the extra Illuvials in my collection.
  • Spectator Mode
  • XP Package as Prizing for Skirmish

Negatives:

  • Winning (Surviving) player doesn't get Illuvials as rewards
  • Slot Machine Boost Mechanic is unapologetically Pay 2 Win with no way to work for the same boosts in match.
  • No Game Mode for middle of the road players that want ownership to count. (I'd be stuck doing Skirmish or Leviathan.)
  • This is the ONLY sink for Illuvials as of right now.
  • XP Package as Prizing isn't in the other game modes.

What I personally would like to see:

  • Add another Game Mode in the middle so someone that wants to have Ownership Stats matter isn't stuck playing the free option or forced to pay a massive $20 entry fee. Like a $1-$5 option.
  • Have a spectator system similar to what Arena does where I can spectate matches that I myself am not playing in.
  • My Illuvials deserve better than this. I didn't catch them to be an entry onto a Roulette wheel. I'd be less upset if there was another sink in game that would give me EXP directly but at a lower rate. I wish I could choose to let the essence of my own weaker Illuvials power up my main Illuvials. Or choose to risk them for a higher EXP rate and if I got lucky in the Deathmatch game. But the Deathmatch SHOULD NOT BE THE ONLY OPTION.

1/2

#
  • Have a risky way for players to get boosts without needing to spend to lower the direct amount of Pay2Win. Thinking of chance of boost on elimination OR in the environment itself. Like the cornucopia in Hunger Games. The player can choose to start in an area near boosts, but then everyone knows about it and makes it a highly contested bloodbath area. Especially if a whale wants to feast. It turns the Slot Machine Mechanic into Pay For Convenience instead of directly Pay2Win and the player CHOOSES to take that risk going into the "cornucopia".
  • Strategy, survival, and training should also get an Illuvial. But only to the Winner. Make it High Risk to play defensively.
  • Add XP Packages to ALL game modes alongside the $ prizing and not just Skirmish (F2P)

I understand that we are trying to make money and the rest of the industry is caving in doing the popular thing and catering to gambling "degens". It doesn't mean that Illuvium has to fall to that low.

I believe Illuvium can do better and just because this involves gambling to a certain extent, doesn't mean that we can't also make a great game that people WANT to play for enjoyment. Not just for gambling or feeling like they have to because "these Illuvials are useless. I have nothing better to do with them but gamble them." These battles should be an event, a gladiator spectacle. I want to train an Illuvial to be a gladiator and make it feel like a big deal when I put them into battle. But you can tell by the wording in the Concept document that it's current "Set and Forgot" feel is built for losing and burning Illuvials as quickly, mindlessly, and painlessly as possible.

2/2

brittle burrow
#

Tell me if I'm off base here @unkempt heron, but it feels like the complexity in the Slot Machine/Locking system is an attempt to force 'Skill Expression' into the gambling phase.

I completely agree we need skill, but Skill should come from the Team Building, while the power-ups should be pure Variance.

If we want deep strategy without breaking mobile performance (100 units limit), I think the 'Tag Team' (Sequential) System is the silver bullet.

The Concept: 3 Units, 1 Active at a time.
It works like a Relay Race or Pokemon battle. You draft 3 units, but they spawn sequentially.

  • Draft: Pick 3 Units.
  • Combat: Unit 1 fights.
  • On Death: Unit 2 spawns randomly elsewhere.
  • Repeat: Until Unit 3 dies.

Why this creates Infinite Skill Expression (without UI clutter):
This introduces 3 Dimensions of Strategy with a simple 'Drag & Drop' interface:

Synergy combinations (The 100k+ Meta):

  • With just 3 slots, the combinatorial depth is massive (100,000+ potentially viable teams).
  • Do I run 3 Fire units for a Synergy burn? Or 3 Tanks for stall?

Ordering (The Poker Strategy):

  • This is the new layer. Order matters.
  • Strategy A: Lead with a Bulwark to soak the initial chaos, keep the Carry for last.
  • Strategy B: Lead with a Rogue to clean up first and then stall with your Bulwark.
  • A team of A -> B -> C plays completely differently from C -> B -> A.

Adaptation:

  • If the meta shifts to 'Aggro', players start leading with Tanks. If the meta shifts to 'Stall', players lead with Carries.

Bonus

It makes the spectacle way more unpredictable.

Bonus 2

If your 1st spawn is bad it's not a big deal, you will spawn 2 other times and you might get lucky.

Conclusion:

This gives us the Strategic Depth of a full Auto-Battler (Synergies + Ordering + Meta adaptation) but keeps the Performance of a 1v1 (Only 1 unit rendered per player).
The UI is just 3 Slots. Simple for the user, nightmare for the opponent to solve.

static knoll
brittle burrow
# static knoll Then this is where the Game vs. Gambling comes into effect. This mode sounds inc...

You hit the nail on the head regarding friction. If we force a Degen to sit there and theory-craft a 3-unit team for 10 minutes, they will quit. They just want the 'lights to go weeee.'

However, I think we can solve that by Automating the Complexity.

The Solution: 'Opt-in Strategy'
We can keep the 3-Unit Depth (which creates the Skill Gap/Longevity) but completely hide it from the casual user via One-Click Solutions:

For Draft Mode (Ghost): A giant 'RANDOMIZE' button.

The Degen pays the fee →→ Clicks Randomize →→ The game rolls a 3-Unit Team for them.
To them, it feels exactly like a Slot Machine. They didn't think; they just spun for a team and went to battle.

For Constructed (Leviathan): 'Meta Bundles'.

An algorithm pre-builds teams on the Marketplace.
The Degen buys the 'Fire Aggro Bundle' →→ One click to equip →→ Power-ups →→ Play.

Conclusion

This gives us the best of both worlds:
The Pro gets to express skill by hand-crafting unique synergies.
The Degen gets to 'Press Button, Watch Fight' without needing to understand why their team works.

unkempt heron
#

Let's keep it minimal first guys. Theres an endless list of cool things we can add to the experience to make it feel more like a game. Let's build this MVP first and see what can be done on top.

#

Appreciate everyone's feedback

radiant frost
#

I’d really like to see a “sealed” Battle Dome mode. Entry could be an ADR, and everyone plays with their Illuvials for that run. It’s definitely high RNG, but if we want the other modes to work long-term, we need to hit critical mass .. and that means having an easy on-ramp with a chance to compete for new players and fresh money.

frank dirge
#

I wanted to share my original feedback document regarding the originally proposed Risk-to-Earn game mode.

I’d be interested to hear your thoughts and opinions on it.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1P3Y5ZjQGbXd9XgFzYyqUG3sPHO4kNJv9H1n51GT2vOk/edit?tab=t.0

Google Docs
Risk2Earn Game Feedback

Illuvium Risk-to-Earn Game Feedback & Proposed Changes 1. Core Problem: No Clear Target Audience The current prototype doesn’t appear built for the right audience. It resembles a gambling product — but gamblers already have endless alternatives. Cambria works because its risk is embedded in gam...

gray torrent
brittle burrow
gray torrent
#

I'd rather play poker, pool, or something easy and fun if Ima gamble... ain't gonna spend on this... which hits paz point... who tf is this for? degens aint coming in to play this

final cargo
rigid anvil
rigid anvil
brittle burrow
eager otter
#

Importance of Xp Boosts / Infusion
Burning Illuvials to transfer their XP into another solves a major problem in this game mode: players often end up with 20 “trash” Atlas Illuvials they want to clear out quickly.

I don't like that point. It's like doing 2 stage 1 run and you got a free lvl 60. Even if the overworld is going to close.

frank dirge
frank dirge
eager otter
languid glen
# frank dirge I wanted to share my original feedback document regarding the originally propose...

Thank you, Paz, for writing such a neat and detailed document to explain your ideas. However, I'm afraid that based on the document's description, you've successfully transformed a game I was very interested in participating in into one I'm completely uninterested in. In my opinion, over 95% of the Illuvials are garbage, and winning your garbage with my garbage is incredibly boring. I pitched a faction-based battle idea to Nil the other day, and I think that mode might be much more interesting. I believe the most interesting aspect of this "Risk to Earn" concept is that it can have multiple modes coexisting. In the future, we can brainstorm more interesting modes and let the market validate the ideas, but for now, I hope the team can focus on the development and release of the MVP. Let's see what the basic version looks like first.

unkempt scroll
#

Let me ELI5 what we want:
illuvials -> xp
illuvials + money -> more money

brittle burrow
unkempt scroll
#

it's not

#

the idea is to burn trash for a chance to win some money, not to get more trash lol

brittle burrow
surreal plank
unkempt scroll
brittle burrow
#

Getting xp from burnt illuvials would be the equivalent of getting some of our illuvial value back
90% of the entry fee goes to the prizepool
10-50% of the illuvial value goes to the prizepool as well in the form of xp

unkempt scroll
#

ok

surreal plank
brittle burrow
#

"Ownership bonus" is genetic and levels? @unkempt heron

image.png
unkempt heron
#

Yes, it's tpi and lvl

brittle burrow