#When on earth will we can use "paid illuvials"?

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white lynx
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On July 5th, a test tournament for 100ILV will be held. It is said to be a preparation for an event called the Illuvium World Championship. I think this is a great event.

The only thing I'm wondering is "when will paid illuvials be used?"

A large amount of ILV is being distributed through the leaderboards for the free-to-join gauntlets, various tournaments, lotteries, etc., but not a single one of them is a place for paid illuvials to be used. It is hard to say that the player base is growing, and it is unclear whether the marketing is successful.

As I wrote here before,
#💬〕general message
I think you have an obligation to at least explain your future plans. If you don't plan on using them, then the "Illvials that were expensive at the time" are just garbage.

If you plan to use them in MMO lite, please tell us the details as soon as possible. Or is there no use for paid illuvials even in MMO lite?

If there is no future use for them, then please let us know. We will simply sell off the illuvials we currently have. It may be hard to find someone willing to buy it...

Or are there still no plans for paid Illuvials at all?

Maybe there is some plan in the minutes, but I think they should clearly announce it as an official announcement, rather than just telling us "it's written somewhere, so please read it."

Please consider this.

wild schooner
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World championship when we have 100 active players, love it.

There's so many things we can do with illuvials, it's frustrating not giving them a chance and pivot from one thing to the other without proper planning. The mmo wasn't even necessary at all, the current loop was never given a chance to flourish

white lynx
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Although the July 5th tournament is open to anyone and the prize is 100 ILV, there are only about 50 people registered, including the waiting list. Personally, I feel that this is a small number.

These 50 people will probably be the main participants in the Illuvium World Championship.

The July 5th tournament overview states,

"Most of the competitive prize pool for 2025 will be focused on the World Championship Event at the end of the year – and every placement in a Minor or Major brings you one step closer to it."

This means that most of the ILV pool will be poured into free2play Gauntlet mode at least until the end of 2025.

What kind of effect do you expect from continuing to distribute ILV to the same 50 people as usual at free2play events, and what kind of future are you heading towards?
*Strictly speaking, the top players are pretty much already decided, so ILVs will probably be distributed to roughly the same 16 people.

This may be a happy situation for free2play users. However, for users who own illuvials, suits, and weapons as NFT assets, it is hard to understand why NFTs are not being used at all.

t1.jpg
white lynx
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When the market launched, people who used it probably hoped that soon a game-like system would be established that would allow them to use their assets and earn rewards.

Some people may have tried to trade early to gain an advantage in earning rewards. I thought the same.

However, that kind of game-like system was never established. Even now, about a year after the market launched, there has been no news.

I invested in it at my own discretion, so I don't intend to complain any more, but it is truly disappointing that despite the high-quality material available, it is in a hopeless state as web3 content.

stone ruin
# white lynx On July 5th, a test tournament for 100ILV will be held. It is said to be a prepa...

I agree with you I pretty much have all the most powerful and expensive illuvials and weapons/ suits and for some reason devs, councils and CEO decided to reward the players who don't spend a penny in this game. I tried so hard to play the current gauntlet tournaments I can't even reach top 100 leaderboard for rewards. It is very unfair that they distributing rewards to unpaid players all the time. We already have free to play tier 0 overworld map to capture tier 0 illuvials for free they should just create more different types of tier 0 illuvials for new players to capture for free and use those tier 0 illuvials to play for free in leviathan gauntllet tournaments that should be enough free illuvials for them to use in the games and I think it is fair for both paid players and free to play players

coarse swift
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I bought some high stat Illuvials. I spent money to fuse to get some. I also spent money to play to level a bunch of them up.
I don't plan on competing in Arena Tournaments but I had planned on renting my Illuvials out to the people who do. This idea that we can't do tournaments with paid Illuvials because many people don't have great Illuvials is messed up. They can play to get them, buy them or rent from people who do. Polemos is even set up to facilitate it all. Partnerships could be made where an OW player and an Arena player could split profits. There's so many ways to do it.

I honestly don't know what to do any more. There has been too much talk (nothing confirmed) about levels not being relevant or being able to burn Illuvials to get them, or to get stats. I don't want to spend more money to get a Perfect Stat Level 60 Illuvial if it isn't worth it. I agree with you, I would like some kind of idea of whether it is worth it to keep going in my collection of trying to get better ones. We are shooting in the dark here and it is making me get leery of pulliing the trigger.

white lynx
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Not only me, but many people have been discussing and proposing ways to use illuvials and weapon NFT recently.

The following article is one of the recent feedback-ideas articles.
#1391860551331741707 message
#1390400181509558415 message
#1387296236440387696 message

Not only here, but I think similar discussions have been going on for a long time on each channel.

Once the f2p gauntlet was completed to a certain extent, I thought that measures against NFT holders would naturally begin. I was wrong.

What has started is further strengthening of f2p rewards toward the end of the year.

It's fine if there is a clear future goal. I might be convinced. However, no matter how much time passes, the administrators only give a rough roadmap and do not officially announce detailed usage of NFT.

Unless you clarify how NFT will be used, I don't think this will be web3 anymore...

I sold all my assets, including megacity, illuvials, weapons, and suits, but I sincerely hope that those who still own them will be rewarded.

It's a shame because I've been playing it for about 4 years since it was just survival mode and ascendant mode. I'm exhausted.

This is the first and last time I'll ever complain about this game at such length, so please forgive me.

I like illuvial's materials, so I'll continue the f2p gauntlet bit by bit.

Good luck to you all

scenic furnace
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Yeah it's time to move on, I just need someone to pay some pennies for what I own, too lazy to sell one by one.

coarse fossil
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@patent elk Good day, dear Kieran,

I'm glad to see you engaging with the community more frequently. It truly means a lot.

May I kindly ask you to offer some words of encouragement to the community? I’m here for the long run, but many people are losing — or have already completely lost — faith in the Leviathan/Web3 side of the game.

Players are selling their top-tier decks for next to nothing and quitting the game altogether.

Just an idea: what if you shared a specific date for the upcoming Leviathan tournament? I feel like that could really lift the community’s spirits.

Of course, it’s up to you. I just wanted to bring your attention to a very real issue.

Respectfully,
Leviathan fanatic, Winnie

coarse swift
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I hate reading about long time holders selling. We have lost too many really great community members.
I still believe that Illuvium will make it. I'm not getting rid of anything I have, but I don't know how/what to invest my present time and money in. Can we trust the DAO to honour what we have spent on? I hope so.

soft seal
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They didnt get the OW right and the Auto battler is mediocre at best.

What gives you the feeling that they nail the mmo?

Imo chances are close to 0

That is why most long time holders are selling

coarse swift
# soft seal They didnt get the OW right and the Auto battler is mediocre at best. What give...

What gives me the feeling? They showed humility and hired some people with experience in the genre. That coupled with the kind of resilience that Kieran, Aaron and the team has shown gives me a lot of hope. There have been mistakes, they own those but I think they are learning from them. The problem with that would normally be that it can be too late but I don't think it is because crypto is just finally becoming mainstream. We have lost a lot of long time holders and the crypto holders now are going to be leery but soon "Web 3" isn't going to be scary to Web2 people because your average Joe is going to have a BTC ETF or have picked up a little ETH just in case. There is a societal shift toward crypto and that will make Web3 not have a bad rap.

I think we still have time and IMO there is something special about Illuvium, it's world and creatures. They need to hit the right market with it it and have the right story. am not giving up on it because I am not good at Arena and I still play. I have no reason to play OW but I still find myself wanting to relax there. I have tried other games and I don't feel that way. There are so few games out there that aren't filled with a lot of garbage, whether that be graphics or content. So, I am not leaving.

patent elk
# coarse fossil <@770826457923715082> Good day, dear Kieran, I'm glad to see you engaging with ...

@timber agate told me they can activate it pretty easily. He will get back to me this week. Once it's activated I will first run my own tournament and then gauge feedback on balance (hopefully this weekend ideally).

There are two ways we can do things. Integrate leviathan tournaments into the world circuit. Lets call it like 10-20% of the total points available throughout the year. So it doesnt ruin the integrity of the circuit by being solely P2W

or

Additionally, we could have a Leviathan Circuit with different tournaments and prize money all together.

Obviously the latter is more resource intense. I personally think it would be cool to just integrate leviathan tournaments into the world circuit. And sure, the people who spent no money and have no intention to do so will complain and say 10% of the events are heavily P2W but the reality is those events are what drives our revenue and allows us to continue running the world circuit. It in no way would mean those players have to play those events, there will be plenty of events to ensure they qualify for the world event (which will not be leviathan so no P2W) that feels like the best option for us. And its fucking cool. If I'm following the world circuit as a spectator and every couple of months they run one of these whacko balance tournaments where the top players might not win, that is exciting to me.

scenic furnace
patent elk
wild schooner
# patent elk <@713666060938772492> told me they can activate it pretty easily. He will get ba...

This is not going to work Kieran. What is the goal of these proposed formats? It's catering to competitive players before we have built in the casual playerbase first. First you need to get players to play the game and then be hooked to watch tournaments online. Both of these are challenging tasks which must come first before you build your competitive scene. We should start building things slowly and ahead of time instead of relying on big nuclear gimmicks and hope for the best.

We are tunnel visioning too much on handing out token rewards for tournaments and leaderboards, when there are so many better options.

We are in web3 and we are not utilizing this AT ALL.

We have the ability to print rewards with monetary value for free out of thin air. We have the illuvials, with all their unique characteristics and stats that have real monetary value once you own them. Which means anything that enhances them, be it a cosmetic or a performance change, would automatically have a value by itself.

One example would be an essence or an orb that does +1 to a random or a selected stat (yes yes I know the "community" will riot against this).

Then if the seasons are 3 months long, and we reward top 200 players this orb for example, some players will use it, others will sell it on the markets and we have an active economy already. Instead of handing out governance tokens that are limited, we now have the ability to mint rewards with real monetary value out of thin air, and make people compete for that. And it being gameplay oriented sounds much more fun than competing for a governance token.

And the best part is, after a few seasons of such exclusive rewards, the players will actively trade them on the market and the DAO will get it's fees from each transaction. It's all synergizing nicely together.

This is just one example, we can do alot of stuff like that. Split it into different brackets, add different rewards for different leaderboard placements, tie it into the collection of each player in some way, and we have a fully functioning in-game economy that will attract players and give them reason to play and compete.

The tournaments and world championships should come after. My 2 cents

scenic furnace
patent elk
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And I disagree that tournaments can't create a playerbase. If we go to a new guild and sanction a tournament with them and part of that benefit is 4 spots are open to their guild members. Then you have a tournament being played with 4 of their popular guild members or DAO or other projects "pudgy" or whatever, and you have that group then following their 4 players, and hopefully in the meantime wanting to try the game out themselves.

wild schooner
# patent elk These types of cosmet rewards are coming with the battle pass later this month

Obviously I don't know what's the plan with the battle pass, but it's better to tie such rewards to leaderboard placement + collection status because you can control the supply and exclusivity of the rewards much easier. Battle passes are usually completed by just playing the game, if you include the +1 stat orb into that it will create a much higher inflation, or you have to make it extremely expensive, in both of which cases it's counter productive I think.

patent elk
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But it doesn't need to be exclusively that, as I mentioned, the battlepass will bring a lot of those cosmetic rewards. But, that is not really "top of funnel" its more for stickiness of existing playerbase. So having additional things like a competitive scene will help it also

patent elk
# scenic furnace My bad I didn't see he asked for your opinion. But also my suggestion was not to...

Your tone was kinda like, hey if you want to be a dumbass and just listen to yourself with zero experience running a competitive scene, then go right ahead, dumbass, OR you could actually speak to a professional.

I then said I have spoken to many professionals about this and their advice is build something that is tried and tested, far less risky. And I agree with that.

So yes, you were saying mimic proven esports scenes, because thats what the pros have said.

wild schooner
patent elk
scenic furnace
patent elk
wild schooner
patent elk
# scenic furnace You mentioned you talked to pros and then refuted their suggestions saying this ...

No, thats not what happened at all.

We explained we were setting up the Illuvium competitive scene, and asked for their advice on the best way to do that, they recommended a bunch of stuff that closely relates to existing esports games that have success. We didn't mention the leviathan stuff because our goal has first been to get the F2P game popular. Splitting the playerbase even further right now seems crazy.

Then the OP made a really good point, and said dude, we're dying out here, we spent a bunch of money on illuvials that have no use case. And my response was you're right, we really should have something available now. And MY opinion, which I believe has some merits given my experience in web 3 specifically, is that we should try and integrate that into the F2P competitive scene. Which I know is a little risky but doing it lightly feels like our best play, again imo.

Now I could go back to the orgs I spoke to and ask the question about integrating P2W tournaments into the circuit, but my sense is they will say don't do that it could ruin it, but they aren't looking at it from my point of which is monetising our ecosystem, which is super unique. And to be fair, neither were we, it was always about keeping them separate, but the problem with that is I fear it will be a lot longer wait before ownership will have meaning in Arena (outside of the cosmetic value which is about to launch) and as OP pointed out that means a lot more people leaving the ecosystem who had spent thousands on Illuvials.

patent elk
white lynx
# patent elk <@713666060938772492> told me they can activate it pretty easily. He will get ba...

If the development environment is such that it is easy to put ideas for using NFTs into practice, why was it left alone without any announcements until now?

Hasn't there been time to consider many more different ideas for using NFTs? I think this is a fundamental element in web3 games.

Personally, I see this as just a temporary measure to prevent a backlash. It seems like a stopgap measure.

What I wanted to hear wasn't about the Leviathan mode in the most recent tournament.

I really wanted to hear from you about "how you plan to use illuvium's NFTs and how you plan to develop them in the future."

We can't decide what to do with our assets if we only hear about the immediate future.

It says that marketing hasn't started yet, but when will it start? How long will we all have to wait?

That's why I wanted them to make a clear official announcement about "why it's worth waiting"

The most important things, such as how NFTs will be used, marketing measures, and a new large-scale game mode (MMO Lite), are all unclear.

How can we trust this situation? I'm tired of it.

Thank you for replying either way

patent elk
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Leviathan is not a new concept. Nor having a special cosmetic for ownership in the game.

Marketing will start once the game is ready. The last piece of the puzzle should be in end of this month (battle pass and spectator mode which allows us to run tournaments). There was no point waiting this long to start bringing new players into a game that wasn't ready.

None of these things haven't been talked about. People just don’t like the answer that its not quite ready.

#

We made the decision not to launch with leviathan because it will split the playerbase, its not like we just forgot to implement NFT ownership. This was all discussed with the council.

tranquil vessel
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Hi Kieran, team and longtime supporters.

First off, I appreciate the transparency and the open dialogue. It is clear how much effort is going into building this project, and that is something I genuinely respect.

That said, I want to highlight a few concerns that I believe are becoming increasingly urgent, especially now that marketing is starting to ramp up.

Right now, we are bringing in attention, but there is little incentive for newcomers to actually spend. The shop has very few cosmetics (some of them are even bad to use, like the battleboards with those fog particles making it even hard to identify the different affinities), and the core collectible assets, the Illuvials, currently serve no real purpose. Leviathan is still inactive, and the MMO is far off with major question marks around how Illuvials will be used. Even if they are used, it is unclear whether that will be enough to drive strong collecting motivation. (imo we can't wait for mmo and solely rely on that to give meaningful purpose to our main assets)

This creates a gap between growth and monetization. We might see increasing awareness and DAU, but without meaningful reasons to spend, revenue will remain low. Without increasing revenue, there is no real reason for the token to gain value, since revenue distribution will be almost non existent or at least very limited. That also weakens the position for any future raise, because investors will not be excited about user growth without a working monetization model to support it.

At the same time, we are seeing more and more longtime community members giving up and selling their collections, often below their expected value. When OGs are exiting like that, it becomes even harder to convince new users to buy in. People do not want to invest time and pay their hard earned money in something that even the early believers are walking away from.

#

I also want to mention something specific about Leviathan. It needs to be able to stand on its own legs. Adding pay to win elements into the free to play league could discourage the competitive free to play players you are trying to attract. At the same time, it probably will not drive meaningful spending from pay to win players either, since the big prize pools are still being decided in free to play mode. That risks leaving both types of players frustrated and under-engaged.

I am sharing this from a place of support and belief in the vision. But I do think the disconnect between user growth, asset utility, and monetization needs urgent focus if we are going to sustain momentum long term.

sour hemlock
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@tranquil vessel 1000%

wild schooner
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That's why it's better to tie rewards to a collection, rather than battle pass. It fixes so many issues with eco, progression, leviathan, multi accounting among other things.

Battle pass is fine too but the leaderboards + collection multiplier does the same thing, but works better for the project.

If a battle pass costs 25$, for 12 months a player will spend 300$. Those amounts can easily go to ADRs or OW runs instead to improve their collections and multiplier. This works better because the players will be more immersed into the ecosystem and engage in different parts of it, while also gearing slowly for Leviathan, which was supposed to be the main mode of the game. It tackles so many different angles.

The battle pass can exist simultaneously, but it should not be the priority, and it should offer different rewards so both systems compliment each other. For our project, a leaderboard+collection multiplier for rewards would work the best for onboarding and stickiness and we can apply a ton of web3 stuff into it. Which if done well enough, will spike the demand for illuvials, encourage people to play and compete and give purpose to the whole thing

sour hemlock
wild schooner
# sour hemlock rewards can be tied to battle pass and battle pass to illuvial collection https:...

I read it, don't like it. Then a player has to both spend for illuvial collection and on the battle pass to get their rewards, it gets overwhelming (collecting 200+ illuvials with good stats and/or a Holo touch already is)

In my opinion tying the rewards to a collection does the same thing as a battle pass, continuous revenue (will take a ton of spending at once, or smaller increments over a large period of time, like a battle pass, in order to maximize a collection), and getting continuous rewards in return. There are several ways it can be implemented.

Battle pass can be done for the MMO, imo.

coarse fossil
# patent elk <@713666060938772492> told me they can activate it pretty easily. He will get ba...

Thank you very much for the detailed feedback. As I mentioned earlier – I truly appreciate it. It brings a sense of calm.
I'm genuinely happy that the Leviathan mode is not abandoned, but rather under active planning and development.

My friends, you know I share the same passion as you do. And I don't want to argue – I simply want to have a discussion so we can try to find the truth together.
I agree with both perspectives – @patent elk and @tranquil vessel .

F2P players may indeed complain a bit about a small portion of points going toward Leviathan. And P2W players might also be frustrated that their expensive collections are worth very little compared to the bulk of points coming from F2P.

But let’s be honest – right now, we have almost no activities for the P2W mode.
Maybe there’s a compromise worth considering?

For example: we could follow @patent elk suggestion and integrate Leviathan into the overall point circuit – but only as a temporary measure, because we really do have a small player base right now.

As a compromise: to keep Leviathan players happy, the prize pools for those tournaments should be significantly higher than the ones in F2P.

So:

  • Donators get decent prize money from each tournament, a starting point for activity, and a small amount of points toward the overall standings.

  • F2P players might shed a few tears over losing a small amount of points to P2W, but in return, prize pool distribution shifts slightly in favor of P2W players.

Later on (if the player base really grows), the two game modes could be fully separated.

Honestly, I don’t want to argue with anyone, because I respect your opinions and understand your passion. But to me, it feels like right now we need these kinds of “half-measures” more than we need endless waiting for a bright future.

By the way, integrating Leviathan into the overall point circuit could also lead to cross-marketing and help stimulate some trading on Illuvidex.

#

To summarize, here’s what I’m saying:

  • Leviathan shouldn’t be sitting idle. We need something, rather than endlessly waiting for a miracle.

  • I suggest significantly increasing the prize pools for Leviathan tournaments.

  • Cross-marketing potential is real.

I truly **respect **you all for your ideas. I’m not saying I’m right — I could be wrong. This is just my personal opinion.

#

P. S.

@tranquil vessel @sour hemlock I really hope I won’t be misunderstood.
You know that I share your goals and interests.
I just want to be realistic — the rose-colored glasses are gone. It feels like we need half-measures, rather than waiting for a perfect world.
Please understand my point of view, my friends.

sour hemlock
wild schooner
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"Once we start marketing the players will be there" - that is a bold statement. Let's say the players are indeed here and they enjoy the f2p mode. Why would they spend 1k+ on a competitive Leviathan deck, just for the slightly different meta?

You need to fluff and ease them into it one way or another.

Mixing Leviathan into the f2p pool is definitely not it.

wild schooner
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If we first stabilize the economy and we have a decent revenue each month, we can allocate a small % of revdis to go towards a sustainable Leviathan reward pool, ontop of other things. But the ecosystem has to click first

desert anvil
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There is nothing that motivates you more than when you get your iluvial with perfect stats on the table. Your enemies are shocked and told you - you are donator./ That's why people overpay for BMW, Mercedes, Audi, to stand out from the Chinese. In every mobile game, 80% of all profits come from players who want to have something unique and tinker with it. Integrating the stats and levels into Gauntlet in a ticking form is a disgrace. Only avid players donators will want to do this, and there are only a few of them. People with money will want to get their deck, play 1-2 games a day, kill noobs and go to bed. They don't need prizes of 20 or 100 ilv. They need to realize themselves. If we want to cut off such a part of the players, and hope that 80% of the profits we need for prosperity will be brought by free-to-play, I doubt it. And the Pareto principle is also doubtful. The existence of Leviathan and Gauntlet is possible, but the way back from integration into free-to-play is already sad.

PS: And finally make a normally safe delegation by qr code)

wild schooner
coarse fossil
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I would add daily and weekly quests to the Battle Pass, like:
"Play X games in Leviathan and finish at least in X place."
Or something along those lines.
We need Leviathan-specific quests.

desert anvil
# wild schooner The problem is, what makes you think the "noobs" will spend alot on a deck and c...

Sorry, I'm tired of all this. I'm just floating in the unknown now. We want to chase a million active players, and not many games succeed in this, even hundreds of thousands. We've already tarnished our reputation at all levels. I'm really tired of arguing and proving that what we expected from the game will never happen. Maybe Kirian is right about everything, they'll bet on free-to-play, but they'll lose the whales that could have been and those who sit here with lands and decks. But it will bring them profit, but if free-to-play doesn't work, then there will be no strength or money to return to web3.

faint hare
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Maybe illuvium could extend t0 , like someone suggested somewhere before. So player have a little chance with free illuvials and illuvials they already own. With battlepass they can use all. Then people have the goal to finish the collection to play for free or for benefits in mmo.

safe kraken
wild schooner
# safe kraken it's even worse cause in order to level up the illuvials they need to go and pla...

Yeah, there needs to be way more incentives to ease the players into it. For the leveling we should have had a burning tech about it already, and other means to obtain XP if it is intended to stay. Rn it's absurdly expensive to level stuff up. A player can buy multiple AAA games for the price of leveling a couple of illuvials. There needs to be a reason for them to do so, and the slightly different meta to f2p gauntlet is not it. It can't be ilv rewards either because there are not enough of them. We have to open up our mind a bit and explore the web3 options, there's a ton of stuff we can implement for rewards

wild schooner
coarse fossil
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As for the Leviathan rewards — I believe the only real motivation is ILV tokens.
If we consider some additional bonuses — for example, physical trophies for winners or one-of-a-kind cosmetic items — that’s cool.
But it’s important to keep in mind that they should only be additions.

Skins in Illuvium are completely dead. I’m not trying to offend skin fans — I respect collectors. I’m just being realistic.
No one is going to spend thousands of dollars on a deck, train, and compete just for skins.

There are places where ILV rewards can safely be removed. But not Leviathan.
This is a blockchain game.

white lynx
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#🎮〕illuvium-overworld message
Judging from this leaked information, I think administrators are considering making MMO the main use of NFT. This is just my own wild guess.

Personally, I don't like MMO or action-based PVP games, so I have no interest in them, but it may give rise to new players who are willing to spend money to conquer PVP.

Leviathan is also tied up with the free2p gauntlet, and there are a mountain of issues to be addressed in terms of balancing, leveling, and stat adjustments, so it will probably take a considerable amount of time before rewards are implemented and full-scale operation begins.
#1383778070648983642 message

Depending on future trends in MMO, I honestly think there is even a risk that it will be eliminated like Ascendant.

coarse fossil
scenic furnace
# patent elk No, thats not what happened at all. We explained we were setting up the Illuvi...

What I take from the whole situation is the game is now aimed full f2p and you are just throwing a little bone out there for everyone who spent money on illuvials to chew in the meantime. And I mean I get it. You can't just start over as web3 with the promise of spend a little money get lucky and make big bucks if the whole ecosystem es already flooded with illuvials with good stats. It's just not tempting enough for most people. So you need another aim and this is it. I don't hate it, but I'm sure many will, as you can see in these comments, they are worried about their assets. I own a bunch of illuvials myself but I understand they have to be taken out of the picture somehow.
Again this might just be my intuition but that's honestly my thoughts on this.
Btw we are on the same team, Ive been around spending and testing since 2020. Cheers

white lynx
# coarse fossil I’d dare to suggest that we’ll have to wait a very, very long time for the MMO—n...

The most important prerequisite for Leviathan to be successful is a large player base that owns NFT.

I think holding Leviathan tournament at this point is a very bad move. Admins should not recklessly distribute ILV any more. I would say the same thing even if I still had all my assets.

The reason is that even if we were to focus on Leviathan now, I don't believe it would increase market liquidity or the Leviathan player base.

coarse fossil
rigid juniper
# patent elk But it doesn't need to be exclusively that, as I mentioned, the battlepass will ...

Have you developed an actual LTV playbook? The only thing we have heard is from Perry about an original model of $1,500 per "illuvials' completist" that has been scaled down to around $300 with the vast majority achieved now through ADR. This seems like a model that requires world-class business acquisition, given the runway left and the burn. The math simply does not add up to someone who has lived most of my career inside of a large successful incubator/accelerator.

patent temple
rigid juniper
# patent temple You're not wrong about the acquisition sensitivity. But why is LTV limited to $3...

I am not sure I understand your question...happy to supply input if you can help further clarify. What I derived from your replies during EP-1 is that est. $300 is the new target per set/season to collect all the illuvials. I think this is a much more reasonable assumption than $1,500. Given the Total Addressable Market of English-speaking autobattleers, how could anyone expect this to end well? The math is off by orders of magnitude to fund Labs, much less pay tokenholders and landholders what they have invested. My primary point is that the DAO is in the dark on this matter, and the IMC/ICC of E10 & 11 have repeatedly sought details on a pro-forma or revenue forward guidance. This is not radical...what is radical is for a contractor or management company to withhold such information or be inept at being able to produce it. <@&814435151307866142> <@&1107754780744487002>

craggy depot
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i believe any revenue projection is as a good as a guess

stone ruin
# patent elk Leviathan is not a new concept. Nor having a special cosmetic for ownership in t...

I still have faith in your team Kieran. All I wish is for everyone to be successful including everyone invested in this game. I know the main concept of the arena gauntlet is for everyone to be able to use all illuvials even they don't own them. I know you are doing this because we don't have enough players and this type of game play will attract more players to join for free right? Maybe you are right in some point, I'm not a professional game developer in any level but I think I'm still entitled to have my voice heard because I followed this project and invested heavily even before it first launched. Until now I still get confused and find it hard to understand why you made all illuvials useless. When new players comes in and start playing the game a little longer don't you think they will realize that owning illuvials are useless and waste of time energy and money to own one illuvial? Do you think new players will stick around for just playing gauntlet all day long getting tired using all illuvials for free? Where is the fun and excitement in the game? Personally arena gauntlet tournament is boring and makes me feel sleepy, I can't even stand playing gauntlet for an hour specially seeing all illuvials over and over again on my deck to play for free and unlimited. It would have been so much fun if I own them, I would probably spend 24 hours or more playing to upgrade or make my illuvials stronger and most likely spend more money in to them and would really be amazed discovering each illuvials ability, power and advantages in the game on my own. Do you want dedicated and heavily invested players stimulating illuvium economy or distributing rewards to players who only want to play for free that does not even contribute in illuvium economy? I'm hoping you give illuvials a chance to have some sort of value that maybe would help dedicated players and investors to have some hope and maybe stick around a little longer in this project.

rigid juniper
# craggy depot i believe any revenue projection is as a good as a guess

Pro forma (for the sake of form) reflects "what-if" scenarios to project the consequences of a corporate strategy or future scenario. If you anchor the entire enterprise's financial strategy around the collecting of all of the Illuvial NFTs via ADR (primary) and bolting on Battlepass (secondary), then you must justify with some degree of data and logic how you are going to convert a sensible amount of the total addressable market before you burn all of the capital or actually creating sufficient "free cashflow" to attract new capital into the venture. ILV with staking the farm on Arena has narrowed down our total addressable market to a small fraction of the world's population with sufficient discretionary income to spend on this leisure form of entertainment, and the majority of these potential customers speak Mandarin, which we cannot address due to language/localization. This is like needing to turn over a king, queen, and a jack to complete a royal flush with three cards in the river in order to win. You need 2,000 new completists every single month to make payroll...we have not acquired 2,000 in four and a half years combined, while this was one of the most hyped projects on Web3 gaming. Seriously, we should wake the hell up and deal with reality.

patent elk
# scenic furnace What I take from the whole situation is the game is now aimed full f2p and you a...

I'm not sure where this idea has come from that we have abandoned Leviathan. Why would we abandon the main game mode that can generate us direct revenue (drone runs) and indirect (market place fees)?

The initial plan that was shared with the community was 4 weeks of F2P and then on the 5th week bring in Leviathan. We thought the game would be in its final state a couple of months earlier, that didn't happen, so we weren't able to start proper marketing yet. And without the marketing we didn't get the player base we needed to activate Leviathan.

The bone you're talking about is a bridge. One thing we didn't think of (and I accept responsibility for this) is not starting Leviathan tournaments. We could easily do that without splitting the player base, and it wasnt until this conversation started that I thought about that. Now, I'm saying 100% we should be doing that. I personally cant wait to see those tournaments, I'm much more interested in those than the F2P.

I got clearance from Jeremy last night, so I will announce a tournament today for this weekend which I will run and commentate.

But the plan is still to activate leviathan as soon as we start actively bringing in new players. That includes its own leaderboard, battle pass rewards and tournaments.

My point was I think it would actually be cool to have a different type of event that still included circuit points even though it is p2w. Again, the free to play people don't have to play those tournaments and its not like im suggesting 50% of the points come from Leviathan. That though, seems like a massive driver of illuvial acquisition.

If you're a free to play person looking to make the world championships with the big prize money and you're sitting around 40th and just cant crack into the top 30. You might be able to sneak some points in the leviathan events because not all of those top 30 players will enter those tournaments because they don't own Illuvials.

And I know we're on the same team, I just didn't appreciate your tone originally, but probably shouldnt have bitten back. So apologies.

patent elk
# rigid juniper I am not sure I understand your question...happy to supply input if you can help...

We’re a DAO, not a traditional company, and we’re transparent by design but that doesn’t mean we publish financial projections or forward-looking statements like a public corporation. But we've had this conversation many times before haven't we @rigid juniper

Yes, we have internal models and planning tools. How else do you think we raised $30M and built a suite of interconnected games? But repeatedly implying that we’re either withholding data or too “inept” to produce it is insulting. Especially when you wrap it in references to your background in incubators and accelerators, as if that justifies the tone.

You’re welcome to ask hard questions. But don’t conflate transparency with publishing investor decks for the public, and don’t mistake structured disagreement for dysfunction.

patent elk
# stone ruin I still have faith in your team Kieran. All I wish is for everyone to be success...

Of course, and I really appreciate you being here and continuing to invest your time in this project. We didn’t make any game with the idea that Illuvials should feel useless -quite the opposite. The goal has always been for Illuvials to matter in every game.

Arena Leviathan is coming, and in the new Overworld you literally fight with your Illuvials. The stronger your Illuvials, the easier it is to win battles and collect loot. PVP will eventually expand into Overworld too, and in those modes, you'll really need powerful Illuvials.

We’re not in a perfect situation right now, but everything we’re doing has a rationale behind it. The long-term vision is for Illuvial ownership to be meaningful not just in the games that exist now, but in the entire ecosystem we’re building

white lynx
# patent elk I'm not sure where this idea has come from that we have abandoned Leviathan. Why...

I don't have any specialized knowledge about the web3 ecosystem, so I would like to ask a question using a simple example.

Let's say that the Leviathan tournament actually achieves the divine balance adjustment and is held regularly. For example, let's say that the prize pool of the Leviathan tournament is 500ILV, 5 times that of the f2p tournament.

At this point, let's say there are about 16 users who have high-performance stats and high-level Illuvials and who play Gauntlet well. That's probably the actual number. It could be less.

If that's the case, 500ILV will be distributed to those 16 users every time. There will be a lot of dissatisfaction. Still, in order to increase the number of Leviathan players, you will need to ignore the complaints and continue.

So, will new users or f2p Gauntlet users pay a lot of money to prepare high-performance LV60 stats? F2p users are already receiving rewards without risk.

Even if world championship points could be earned from p2w tournaments, I don't think that would dramatically increase the number of users willing to take on the investment risk. Even if you try to attract TFT users, they are primarily f2p users, so it will be quite difficult. So where do you get new players from?

Providing a leaderboard just for Leviathan would require a substantial player base for both F2P and P2W, taking into account the ELO system. Currently, even F2P lacks a player base.

Do you have a secret marketing trick? Or are you just saying that by running Leviathan tournaments with big prize pools and tournament points you should be able to add a ton of new players straight away?

stone ruin
# white lynx I don't have any specialized knowledge about the web3 ecosystem, so I would like...

My suggestion is increase the number of players to top 200 players in leviathan gauntlet leaderboard rewards both free to play and pay to win players can join the leviathan, the top 100th to 1st place anybody can reach that reward bracket including free to play and pay to win players and for the rank 101th to 200th place leviathan leaderboard the only players that will be rewarded in that lower leaderboard reward bracket are for the players who only owns tier 0 illuvials (free to play players). This type of reward system will encourage many players to capture or own more higher tier illuvials which will result in increase activities in marketplace, increase value of illuvials and other in game items and increase activities in all other illuvium games. I think this would be fair for both free to play and pay to win players and at the same time everyone participates in that tournament leading to less wait time for the game tournament to start.

patent elk
# white lynx I don't have any specialized knowledge about the web3 ecosystem, so I would like...

You are assuming that the winner of these leviathan tournaments is the person with the best collection. That's not how we want leviathan to be. You will have an advantage but its not over before it begins.

The idea here is good players start trying to beat the whales and in doing so buy a few Illuvials here and there, then the whales get annoyed losing a tournament and think “if only I had a better rhamphyre I would have won that” so they then go and buy a better one

white lynx
# patent elk You are assuming that the winner of these leviathan tournaments is the person wi...

I have played in Leviathan mode several times. I think that more than 90% of the illuvials from S1 to S3 were close to LV60 and had good stats.

It is true that even if we have illuvials with high LV and stats, we will not always be able to get the top ranks. However, from my experience so far, the current balance is not "slightly advantageous". It is "very advantageous". And that advantage is very important for Autochess's win/loss streak bonus and other factors.

At the moment, there is no LV limit for illuvials. I had a LV63 adoredo, but if someone become a heavy user, it may be possible to have LV70 illuvials.

If one user with perfect stats and all NFT around LV60 is matched with seven users with average stats at LV40-50, I honestly think that the winner is decided before the game even starts. This is only if the balance is the current one.

Even if Leviathan starts in earnest and new users join in, I don't think they will be able to compete for some time with users who have been working hard to level up and have been building high stats for a long time. So I think it's important to figure out how to get new players to invest in you. Maybe a system to easily level up? Maybe it could be incorporated into a battle pass or something.

Certainly at that time, I think that if you can motivate new users to use the market, that will be the first step to success.

#

As stated in the IMC Meeting Minutes from June 23, change the f2p leaderboard rewards to fuel, and use that fuel to play auto drones or OW to obtain NFTs. Change the p2w leaderboard to a more luxurious ILV. And gradually increase the number of p2w players.

I don't know if Leviathan's player base will actually increase, but if you go that far and shift to p2w in the future, it would be meaningful to fully launch Leviathan.

However, there will be people who oppose this, as follows:
#1390281360358379602 message

I think the number of f2p users may decrease dramatically, but I feel that it would be healthier as a web3 game than it is now. This is just my personal opinion.

ILVtoFuel.jpg
safe kraken
rigid juniper
honest trellis
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please don't change the game to pay to win, a huge number of players will simply leave the game in this case, and there are not so many players to lose them

craggy depot
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Leviathan is supposed to be P2W

white lynx
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Another concern regarding P2W Gauntlet. Just my own speculation.

Let's say that some users (I don't like to use word "whales", but I will call them whales here) invested a lot and collected high-level&status illuvials. I think I was one of them.

As I mentioned before, I think they are very advantageous at this point.

However, more balance is adjusted to take new players into consideration (more advantage of level&status is reduced), weaker effect of p2w will become.

More this happens, the more I think that "whales who play gauntlet at average skill but want to win with power of investment (time spent on leveling&trading)" will be weeded out. Someone will get frustrated and buy better NFT, but someone will quit. I also feel that my motivation would drop and stop if I were in that situation.

You might think, "Well, I just need to practice so I can play well," but to reach so-called TFT challenger level (sl1ckz, foxspirit, etc), we need extraordinary amount of practice&desire to win. Because we can't do that, we try to rely on the power of investment.

Imagine new players gathering in Leviathan and many TFT challenger joining in. (I think it would be a great success if this actually happened.) "Very good players with minimal investment" will overwhelm Leviathan. Maybe there will be players who can get into the top ranks with 0 investment (initial status&level) even in Leviathan.

I got the impression that they were aiming for that kind of balance.I think that's correct, but I wonder if it's difficult to get both types of players to continue investing. (If income from the Battle Pass is enough, then I don't think it's problem.)

Since it uses the same illuvials&augments as the F2P Gauntlet, it is very difficult to balance the %-based omega, augments, synergies, etc. This balancing adjustment will likely require extraordinary amount of development resources each time new feature is added.

I think Development Team really need divine balancing and marketing.

scenic furnace
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Kieran answered that message with something like first doing mmo, then slowly transition into leviathan (I guess where stats matter). At least that's what I understood, you can read his response above

copper vapor
# white lynx Another concern regarding P2W Gauntlet. Just my own speculation. Let's say that...

I think p2w is the correct word, but there are also 2 worlds here, the world where you get actual "named" players with competitive track records and social followings to play, those will just see what´s the pricetag on perfect things, then evaluate if it is worth to play, especially compared to other options, be it web2 or web3 ones, that would be me e.g.
Maybe worth due to content/social stuff they can get or strict prices.

Trust is a major problem here though, as ILV-Big e-sport has been said for 3+years now and big tournament "very soon" for almost 2 years, since Team Liquid D1sks, so why even believe it will happen until at least 1st time events happen and were payed out?
DAO concept can always argue do it later or change things, very low certainty.

Then you have semi casuals who tryhard but would see a world between buy max things to play to win and optimize for getting rewards, this is like web3 reward farmers and/or most of who plays ILV atm imo, often no relevant followings or advantages outside of +1 player count, as they don´t want to spend more than they can make.

In the end you just need the people who spend without thinking they can go/wanting to go net +, as always, otherwise it is another form of ponzi, but one that requires gaming skill/high time spend on top of spend money seems like a very low target audience one.

I think the idea of balancing 2 game modes doesn´t work, just different balance, meta, games for "non noobs", basically balancing/playing 2 games.
ILV combat-systems are poorly made for this especially.

wide lagoon
rigid juniper
tranquil vessel
wide lagoon
rigid juniper
# tranquil vessel don't think the equation is that simple. there are other revenue roads like beyo...

It's not like we are at 20 completionists in 1 year. All of the ancillary revenue likely will add up to what 10%? Maybe, battlepass can get up to 20% years from now? We need $12M ARR, likely to pay holders and stakers anything to keep them close to T-bill returns for the joy of clicking bubbles or sitting around hoping if/when the next RevDis will drop. Please supply me with any substantive models/content that refutes this elementary math logic that hit my head in 30 seconds. I WANT to be so far off in my logic that it gives me hope.

tranquil vessel
faint hare
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I don't know how the first collection will motivate people to come in. There is and was so many free fuel through rewards. They can't catch up to it. Since start there is no value. And the whole web3 idea got lost somehow.

copper vapor
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Still wild how the most simple thing of you own your creatures, need them to build a team to fight with your team was saced for, let’s check, nothing so far?

scenic furnace
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What if, hear me out, we put some interest to illuvials. Meaning for example the need to feed them every once in a while. Food would cost fuel, this will decrease massively the amount of illuvials and generate revenue. Of course this system would have to be implemented when illuvials actually are useful for something, and when there is a "plan b" for illuvials people don't want to mantain

#

Then at least if the market is flooded by illuvials as it is, its already generating value. On the other side, if people.dont keep illuvials, there is little revenue but there is a greater incentive for others to compete

keen olive
patent temple
rigid juniper
steady temple
# keen olive I would have liked to have a Leviathan Survival as the first "Leviathan mode"......

I think most community members enjoyed Survival, and I agree with you that this mode would be the most suitable. We wouldn't split the player base for an identical mode (gauntlet), survival already exists, it's easy to add variety, and it gives you a sense of progression. I think my last point is particularly important for new players. If they're just starting out and only have a few Illuvials, they'd just get stomped in gauntlet leviathan. Even if they buy a few more and level up, they will never have a chance. As a new player, I wouldn't want to spend $1,000 just to have a chance. In Survival, they would feel real progress. Just a few levels or a new Illuvial could already help them get through another wave.

patent temple
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Youd be surprised how many veterans and newcomers played survival even with 0 marketing or community attention throughout ascendant and gauntlet phases

tranquil vessel
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i can see that there is an audience for a survival mode.
i wasn't able to fall in love with it.
The puzzle system quickly felt super grindy, because you always had to clear the exact same waves over and over to hopefully get the wave you messed up last try finally right this time
When i did, i might got couple waves further, but ofen i got wrecked again after 1-2 waves and had to start all over again.

#

for me personally... i rather suck in gauntlet than shine in survival 😄

tired stump
keen olive
# tired stump I agree, the usual waves are boring and monotonous, it needs improvement... the ...

Exactly...
First it needs to be updated with same mechanics/UI as in Gauntlet, then the waves could be reworded a bit... one idea could be to bring in some of the new opponents to spice it up a bit, so you would face a strong "special team" every 10 waves, every wave will increase in difficulty like today, with the goal to beat as many waves as possible....

your team could still be random, but only picked from Illuvials you own. just Like @steady temple wrote, this would encourage people to get a stronger team, and give a better way to "progress", without having to invest in a full team like you would today for Leviathan Gauntlet. It might even be an idea to give a small portion of XP for completing specific number of waves, adding another source for gaining XP (also giving a way to make small improvement to your team, every time you play).
Obviously needs some planning and development but the mode would defiantly be great for Leviathan. 🙂

tired stump
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I definitely still like the good old mini-boss system, old school ))

verbal cliff
fallen prairie
verbal cliff
torpid crest
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I’m a free to play player and there is a difference between being attractive to f2p and slanting the game to support f2p.

I’m not web3 and I just wanted to play as it looks pretty and I like pokemon and sci-fi. To be honest, the lack of gameplay has been frustrating to most f2p players. I don’t expect to beat the paid people, in fact I shouldn’t beat people with better everything in a fair game. But I do play for the catching pokemon and cute environments and low stress / strategy mode. I think if we want to attract f2p, we need to focus on the actual gameplay and the paid players. No person wants to play a game and see everyone who has spent money complaining, so we need to keep our current base happy!

patent elk
verbal cliff
patent elk
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@verbal cliff jump in Gauntlet

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eviathan

verbal cliff
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plus currently organising all my illuvials. Tryna see if there's anything I need to buy to plug major holes.

patent elk
verbal cliff
sour hemlock