Increased Illuvial Survivability in Leviathan

[obtuse aspen]

Friends, continuing the discussion on #1379903294792794322 message, I’d like to propose a change to improve the balance in Leviathan mode — specifically, to adjust unit survivability.

The issue: right now, damage scaling in battles significantly outpaces survivability, leading to fights ending too quickly and reducing tactical depth.

Important: I’m always against casualization. Under no circumstances should unit damage be reduced. That would definitely cause a wave of outrage. I’m talking about something else — increasing unit survivability.
Reducing damage would be harmful, as it would make the game even easier. That must not be done.

The proposed solution: increase survivability by adjusting the formulas for health and resist scaling — both from stats and levels. Every point and level should give more noticeable improvements to tankiness.

Rough target: unit survivability could be increased by approximately 20%, while carefully balancing the changes.

[night flame]

well, the way things were designed this was rather inevitable. Thanks for starting this very much needed discussion. I'm looking forward to see what solutions we come up with for this.

instead of changing the formulas for health and resistances we could instead lower the base attack speed of illuvials in Leviathan.

[obtuse aspen]

My friend, we must not lower anything. That’s just another step toward casualization and simplification.
It’s destructive for Leviathan.

Leviathan was ruined once it went through heavy casualization. We can’t keep going down that path.

Increasing survivability — that’s good.
Lowering any kind of attack — that’s bad.

[night flame]

"Leviathan was ruined once it went through heavy casualization." isn't this a bit of an over statement for a game that's still under development? 😅

just saying it's bad it's really not a convincing argument you know that right? By lowering the base attack speed of every illuvial we would be slowing the game's pace and effectively increasing the illuvial's survivability.

[obtuse aspen]

My friends. This does not lead to the same result. Not at all.
I'm not at home right now. I'll give a detailed response in an hour.

[obtuse aspen]

@night flame @stiff remnant
Let’s consider a theoretical situation.

Player John has a top-tier deck. He plays tanks.
Player Mike also has a top-tier deck. He plays damage dealers.
Player Sara has a terrible deck. She plays psions.

Current situation:
John and Mike have a strong advantage over Sara because she didn’t invest time or money into her deck.
Mike has a strong advantage over John because damage is poorly balanced.

Now let’s consider the thoughts from @night flame / @stiff remnant :
John and Mike start playing in a balanced way. The outcome is decided by skill, augments, meta, positioning, and the specific situation. Everything is fine.

But a problem appears:
Now Sara can sometimes win a round against Mike or John, because the scaling of damage from stats has been reduced.
Previously, there was a huge gap between Mike’s and Sara’s damage.
John could avoid spending money on leveling up. But now he deals less damage, so he is forced to spend money to level up.
Sara’s damage hasn’t changed — it was always 1. She doesn’t have extra stats or levels. That’s why it stays 1.

Conclusion:
If you simply reduce damage, you are casualizing the game again.
This means a donor or someone who grinded XP can lose even more often to someone with a terrible deck.

Illuvium has already faced a wave of anger when the benefits from stats and levels were reduced.
Now you are suggesting to do something similar — to further erase the difference between a standard deck (or a cheeseburger deck) and a $10,000+ deck.

What I suggest:
Simply increase the health scaling from levels and stats, and increase resistances from stats.

[night flame]

I don't think you understood what I said. I'm not talking about lowering the benefit of the attack speed stat. I said we lower the BASE value of attack speed, therefore slowing the game. You're the one suggestion changing the formula for how the defense stats are calculated.

let's say in normal mode illuvials average 1 attack per second, in leviathan mode an illuvial with an attack speed stat of 0 would do 1 attack every 2 seconds.

[obtuse aspen]

My friend, that's an interesting thought, but after thinking it through a bit more, I suspect it might not be the best solution, as it could deal yet another blow to tanks.

The survivability of many tanks also partially depends on attack speed.
There are plenty of examples. Just to name a few:

The more frequently Cardulox taunts opponents, the more health he accumulates;

The more frequently Blotto ults, the more often he blinds enemies, improving survivability;

The more often Axodon ults, the more frequently he stacks his shield;
And so on.

But I respect your opinion. We're only building theories here — we need to test everything.

@thorn cedar , good evening. Please share your thoughts.
What do you think is the best approach?

And I apologize for repeating myself often — but above all, please, no casualization of decks. You're very experienced, and I'm sure you have a good solution to this issue.

[thorn cedar]

I will take a good look at this tomorrow Winnie

[rancid minnow]

I don't understand why survivability doesn't scale as much as damage

+25% RES = +25% survivability
+25% AS = +25% damage
+50% HP = +50% survivability
+50% OP & AD = +50% damage

[obtuse aspen]

#1379903294792794322 message
Hi. Please read this message and everything below.

[rancid minnow]

I read it and I don't understand why we have different outcomes

I'll do a calculation after the tournament

[rancid minnow]

I think that your effective hp calculation is incorrect since you multiplied HP by (damage reduction + 100%)

If we follow your logic it means that if we reduce 50% of the damage we only have 1.5x more effective hp, however it should be 2x
If we reduce damage by 99% we don't have 1.99x more effective hp, we have 100x more effective hp

The correct effective hp calculation is HP x (1+RES/100) so it should scale as well as DPS

Basically if you have 100 RES you have 100% more ehp
If you have 200 RES you have 200% more ehp

[obtuse aspen]

"Basically if you have 100 RES you have 100% more ehp
If you have 200 RES you have 200% more ehp"

⬆️
My friend, it doesn’t work like that.

Let’s look at a simple situation:
If you have 1000 HP and 100 RES, you reduce incoming damage by 50%.
Your effective HP becomes 2000.

If you have 1000 HP and 500 RES, you reduce incoming damage by approximately 83.3%.
Your effective HP becomes roughly 5990.

Resistance in Illuvium works similarly to armor in Dota 2.
It follows the principle of diminishing returns.

I’m really tired after the tournament and my brain isn’t working that well right now.
But I have to disagree with you, my friend — with 200 RES, your effective HP does not double.

Who’s actually wrong here?

[obtuse aspen]

It’s important to note — I agree with what @dusty mirage wrote in the previous discussion.
I made a significant mistake in my Omega Power calculations,
and I admit that mistake.

Even though it didn’t change the core point too much — damage in Leviathan scales much better than survivability.

It’s all due to the law of diminishing returns.
This is well balanced for Ranked, but not well balanced for Leviathan.

But that’s exactly why we’re here and spending our time on it — to identify bugs and design flaws.

[rancid minnow]

If you have 1000 HP and 100 RES, you reduce incoming damage by 50%.
Your effective HP becomes 2000.

--> Yes

If you have 1000 HP and 500 RES, you reduce incoming damage by approximately 83.3%.
Your effective HP becomes roughly 5990

--> It's 6000 rather so +500% eHP since you have 500 RES

But I have to disagree with you, my friend — with 200 RES, your effective HP does not double.

--> +200% ehp means that you go from 100% to 300% so you triple the eHP not double

It follows the principle of diminishing returns

--> The % of damage blocked has diminishing returns but the more % damage blocked you have, the more important each new % of damage blocked becomes

Example:
0% --> 1% dmg blocked = about 1% more eHP
98% --> 99% dmg blocked = 100% more eHP

So eHP increases linearly even though % dmg blocked has diminishing returns because the value of % dmg blocked increases exponentially compensating the diminishing return

@dusty mirage you could be interested in that as well

[dusty mirage]

Yeah but we need to put this into maths to assess.

It is also worth noting that Illuvials do benefit more from offensive stats in a different way than defensive stats. For example Ryplance Omega does % max health damage based on its Omega Power. The game is balanced around all Illuvials starting with 0 Omega Power, but this setup breaks that a bit.

HP - 50%
RES - 25%
OMEGA - 50%
AD - 50%
AS - 25%

HP - 1000
RES - 100
OMEGA - 100
AD - 100
AS - 1/s

Baseline (Tatopee Omega)

Effective HP = 2000
Effective DPS = 100
Effective Omega Dmg = 750

TTK w/o Omega = 20s
TTK w Omega = 12.5s

Perfect Illuvials (Tatopee Omega)

Effective HP = 3375
Effective DPS = 187.5
Effective Omega Dmg = 1125

TTK w/o Omega = 18s
TTK w Omega = 12s

Perfect Illuvials (Tatopee Omega) (RES is 50% Instead)

Effective HP = 3750
Effective DPS = 187.5
Effective Omega Dmg = 1125

TTK w/o Omega = 20s
TTK w Omega = 14s

Perfect Illuvials (Tatopee Omega) (1 Fragment Each / Fury/Defiance (10% AD vs 100HP))

Effective HP = 3600
Effective DPS = 206.25
Effective Omega Dmg = 1125

TTK w/o Omega = 17.5s
TTK w Omega = 12s

in Summary here is what I think is happening

Firstly, resistances only increase by 25% from stats, and are not influenced by levels, this does create an uneven playing field from the get-go in favour of damage dealers.

Secondly, many Omegas get outsized gains from a boost in a way that resistance and HP boosts do not, with the exception of items that grant % Max Health boost.

However the largest component here is actually the types of component buffs in the game. Take DPS for example. Attack speed buffs are +20% or +15%, same with damage buffs, this calculates directly on top of stat boosts since they are baked into the Illuvial, this creates a compounding effect. Items on the other side don't do this. They are +100HP or +20 Resistances, which doesn't benefit from stats at all.

Therefore DPS Illuvials benefit more in 3-4 different ways, which will shorten games.

Also we need to factor in the sheer quantity of items and synergies that either do % max health damage or pure damage. Not only are these often based on an Illuvials attack damage, but an increasing HP stat or an increasing resistance stat are nullified by this effect whereas an increase damage or attack speed stat compounds it.

In summary take a Lynx scenario. It goes from 100 DPS to 187.5 DPS. And an Illuvial on the other side goes from 1000 HP to 1500 HP since Pure damage negates any additional boosts. Then u give it 80% Attack Damage and 30% Attack Speed from 2 items u go to 438.75 DPS, but 2 items on a tank might give you 600 more HP at most, so 2300 HP.

1.625 AS * 270 AD = 438.75 DPS

Your DPS went to 4.4x and your HP went to 2.3x.

Sure Lynx is one example because he does pure damage, but Ryplance, Behemoth, Inferno all scale better off DPS than anything defensive and there are heaps of Drone Augments and such as well that grant pure damage or Attack Speed/Attack Damage buffs based on percentage.

I think what I discovered here is its not the Illuvials themselves, you could give a DPS augment to a maxed out Axodon and get the same answer. The real cause is the Augments themselves, which compound on stats in a way that defensive Augments simply don't

@obtuse aspen @thorn cedar there we go, I mathed it

[obtuse aspen]

@dusty mirage @rancid minnow @thorn cedar
Hey. To sum it up — damage scales way harder than survivability. So it wasn’t just in my head — I’m not crazy.

What I’m most afraid of is the risk of making a rushed and wrong decision — one that seems right but would actually be destructive — simply lowering damage.

I really hope the formula for scaling resistances and health will be changed instead.

It’s unlikely this mode will ever be perfectly balanced. Some Illuvials and items will always be a bit overtuned or undertuned.
But as a starting point, I’d just like to see Illuvials become more durable in general.

Lowering damage would be the final nail in the coffin for the Leviathan mode.

[thorn cedar]

You have a unit with 1000 HP and 100 Armor.

The effective Health of that unit is 2000.

---

You have a unit with 1000xOP scaling omega damage and 100 Omega Power.

The damage applied is 1000.

---

Now, Leviathan enters the room, and this is the scaling:

HP - 50%
RES - 25%
OMEGA - 50%

Thus the defending unit has:

1500 HP
125 Armor

The effective Health of that unit is now 3375.

The attacking unit has now 1000xOP scaling omega damage and 150 Omega Power.

The damage applied is now 1500.

While the Omega damage increased by 50%, the effective health increased by 87.5%.

---

Of course the omega is not the only source of damage, the damage from basic attacks also scales harder as it compounds Attack Damage and Attack speed, so the increase is 87.5% for basic attacks and 50% for omega. In any case, neither of those are higher than the 87.5% increase in survivavility.

So either the Rhamphyre had perfect stats and the tanks had shitty stats, or I don't understand why units are feeling squishier. @obtuse aspen @rancid minnow , do you get my point?

[obtuse aspen]

I didn’t save a screenshot, unfortunately.
So I don’t remember our exact team compositions very well.
In short: Colossuses/Granite vs Rogues/Inferno.

If we’re talking about stats – the teams were identical.

I’m not a developer, so this is just my assumption:
Surely, before releasing an update, you have an environment where you can create any Illuvials in a test network, equip them with any augments, and then launch a battle.

Could I ask you to do something similar with a stopwatch?
Create two teams (I can roughly recall the Illuvials from memory, though not perfectly).
Then equip them with powerful augments.

And compare the speed measurements – in Casual and in Leviathan.

You’d need to generate around 10–20 similar situations. Using different builds.
If you see that the battle speed in Leviathan is indeed higher than in Casual – then there’s a problem.

I’m happy to help if you need anything from me.

[thorn cedar]

100% We have to work on this part of the balance

we are getting close to polishing the non-leviathan part of the game. We will work on Leviathan balance and refinement next.

[obtuse aspen]

Thank you very much, my friend. I’ll be waiting.

I don't want to come across as pushy or keep repeating the same point and distracting you.
But please – don’t reduce Illuvial damage.
That would turn Leviathan into a second Ranked mode, one without soul.

[rancid minnow]

It is also worth noting that Illuvials do benefit more from offensive stats in a different way than defensive stats. For example Ryplance Omega does % max health damage based on its Omega Power.

Adoredo also heals a % of max health, I don't know if it's the only counter example we'd need to check more illuvials' omegas

Perfect Illuvials (Tatopee Omega)

Effective HP = 3375
Effective DPS = 187.5
Effective Omega Dmg = 1125

TTK w/o Omega = 18s
TTK w Omega = 12s

I agree, I just realized that the ideal effective HP calculation should be HP x ((100 + RES) / 100) x 1.25
But we have HP x (100 + (RES x 1.25)) / 100
So the 100 in the parenthesis doesn't scale and the less RES we have, the more we see the problem

However the largest component here is actually the types of component buffs in the game.

I agree that some items and synergies do scale better than others, nature does heal a % of HP while earth gives a flat amount of mitigation that doesn't scale in leviathan

[thorn cedar]

These are extremely valid points. We will have to think on how to adjust this

[obtuse aspen]

@rancid minnow is absolutely right about this.
Many classes/affinities/augmentations/drone upgrades are completely useless in this mode.
Earth is a very clear example of that.

@rancid minnow , we’ll be waiting.

[rancid minnow]

Note that while some pure damage units are stronger in Leviathan, there are also tanks like Caradulox and Goliant that will taunt and stun more often which prevent damage

[dusty mirage]

I think there's actually a solution. Any scaling items such as Augments should be applied to base stats rather than adjusted stats, then the adjustments from stats could be added afterwards. This may resolve the issue, or mostly will.

[dusty mirage]

I just explained why, Augments scale far better on dps.

Basically DPS units have compound interest and tank units dont

DPS Augments are % boosts which compounds with stats. Tank Augments are not.

[dusty mirage]

Exactly. All the synergies, augments and so on, naturally benefit DPS more than Tank, I don't think its more complex than that

[dusty mirage]

An interesting note, but many Augments and synergies also make Illuvials immune to such things, so we go back in circles.

Also every note you make on % HP gain or benefit doesnt scale with RES. Whereas every single ATK Speed or DMG buff scales with both ATK speed and DMG at the same time every time.

[rancid minnow]

I disagree, immunity is rare and I'm not aware of synergies that give immunity apart from 6 psions

[dusty mirage]

6 Psions and at least 3 augments.

You are right tho, basically every tank can stun.

But with all this maths they will die before they can cast twice anyways imo

[rancid minnow]

Only 2 items since they removed some of them, immunity prism is in the worst item category so rather uncommon and time respite isn't a good legendary item imo, I rarely see it used