#98% of Legitimate Player Purchased Fuel was DELETED WITHOUT REFUND. This is Unacceptable. FIX THIS

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

modest glen
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Player A buys hundreds of dollars of fuel at 100% price. Decided he loves the game. Buys $1000 of fuel at 50% discount as future investment to this game while the price was falling. He takes a break from this game since he caught all Gen 1 Illuvials. And then returns only to discover 98% of his fuel was deleted by this update. He will view this as personal theft/destruction of his property.

This situation is simply unacceptable since it is the mass deletion of legitimately purchased fuel, much of it at the current 100% price.

This situation has just happened to me. I have been an avid supporter of this project for years now. I have over 1000+ of game time in Illuvium products. I spent $1000+ on fuel. I had over 200,000 fuel saved that I purchased while the price of fuel was falling and nearly all of it was purchased above the 25% refund threshold. I purchased this fuel because I wanted to play this game for a LONG time. It was an investment into the future of this game as my goal was to play the game for years and years.

The recent Unified Fuel patch has deleted 98% of fuel from ALL legitimate buyers who bought fuel from 100% price all the way down to 25% price. NONE OF THIS FUEL COST WILL BE REFUNDED. This is unacceptable. If it wasn't going to be refunded, then it shouldn't have been touched/deleted. I understand the team doesn't have money to refund people. That's fine. There is another simple solution. Just leave that fuel alone.

Now that it has been deleted, the simple solution is to return any fuel purchased from 100% price down to 25% price range. All of this is tracked in transaction logs. It can be filtered and reverted. Fix this or this game is DEAD. No one will will ever want to buy fuel again if the devs have a history of MASS DELETING LEGITIMATE player purchases without refund.

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This isn't just about me getting a refund. It's about Illuvium devs/team respecting their customter's legitmate purchases and treating them with respect. If you aren't going to refund, then don't take away 98% of their purchase. It's extremely simple. I can't believe I even have to write these words

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98% of Legitimate Player Purchased Fuel was DELETED WITHOUT REFUND. This is Unacceptable. FIX THIS

coarse current
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Definitely agree, it's a terrible thing that happened and should not be swept under the rug.

neat harness
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<@&814435151307866142> This is the type of goodwill eradication I forecasted on public display. EP-1 is a 'sentiment suicide' catalyst for Landholders, and I believe many overlap with the remainder of the ILV stakers. I state this with hopes of a turnaround, but ILV continues to display relative weakness week after week. This is a clear indicator that confidence and capital are fleeing this project.

remote temple
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Hi Gizmo, thanks for the feedback.
we'll discuss about similar situation with the council

steady pulsar
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I feel you... they should of given a time window for players to either use up all the fuel or received a refund...closing OW for maintenance during that time was ridiculous

barren ocean
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This project has been on a long drawn out death march. And the token price reflects that, rugged project.

modest glen
dire remnant
coarse current
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How many thumbs up does this need for it to have someone look into it?

lucid oasis
coarse current
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Hooray!

remote temple
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Update.
We talked about this yesterday.
Team is looking at it.
End of message.

modest glen
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Thanks for the update. I really want this project to pull through 👍

tacit shadow
remote temple
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we have also provided a refund for purchases and transfers below 25%of the top rail

dapper oasis
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I think the biggest mistake was the communication. Just shut ow down, no plan , no information about refund. If there was more time to spent the fuel in ow or more time to organize the refund it would not have become a big trust issue. Still some people don't play ow because they don't know what will happen.

remote temple
neat harness
coarse current
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Is the stolen fuel returned yet?

blazing zenith
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If you buy Solana has 10$ and 2 months later they take you off 95% because the price was too low, it's theft. Good job Illuvium, its exactly the same

frozen igloo
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I stopped paying attention to this topic at some point, but ended up being a good example of this thread btw, I bought about 1.2eth worth at roughly 250% bonus I think, that can´t be refunded and is now about 150$.

remote temple
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the announcement said you can contact support about that

frozen igloo
remote temple
# frozen igloo Where?

have u requested for a refund?
so last time we talked about it, u just have to keep a minimum amount of fuel in your wallet.
lets say u had 100 fuel after the conversion, and you used some of them and you bought back etc. u just have to keep at least 100 fuel for the refund

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support will also contact you but maybe try to contact them to see whats up

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basically we want to make sure people are getting the refund

frozen igloo
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According to the rules fuel I got at 250% bonus, doesn’t qualify.

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I asked support about this, this is what this thread is about as I understand.

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The fuel that qualified I got refunded, I don’t get why some fuel in generell doesn’t qualify and losses this much purchasing power by any means though.
Could have at least converted that at a fair rate.

remote temple
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ahh ur right it need to be >300% bonus

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hmmm i guess what i can try is to ask perry to run the numbers on how much is the refund for fuel purchased above the 25% of top rail
depending on the amount maybe it can be proposed to the imc

lucid oasis
frozen igloo
frozen igloo
# lucid oasis a fair conversion rate (keep up ingame purchasing power) would have been the bes...

For us users for sure, from Labs pov, I think this would lead to not many using adr/overworld as 2nd market super cheap, floor even lower than atm, maybe even more illiquid etc. So I can see that pov from them. Obv doesn´t feel great from a user, especially with eth being down vs $ as well.
Or people "farming" rewards with that for a long time vs having to buy anything, also making new people not wanna buy, as they compete leaderboards vs ones that have millions stored.

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Seeing the g-doc, the purchasing power we would have had seems a lot lower than what it sounded like when this was talked about though as well.

lucid oasis
lucid oasis
frozen igloo
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Yeah I agree I don´t think it would destroy it, but they were afraid of like at most few mil lost in revenue, which we need far more than that anyways.
It isn´t that simple as the overhang in purchasing power might discourage people etc. etc.

I just mean there are arguments for both sides of this and I understand why they were so against this, I disliked how Kieran and other council talked about this a lot though, not like anyone exploited anything, they just messed up and didn´t correct fast enough when they could have.

lucid oasis
frozen igloo
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I think many would have saved for beyond waves and future stuff now that system uses fuel for everything anyways.

lucid oasis
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besides i would be doing a couple runs every evening for exp and maybe get some nice illuvials needed for my collection.

frozen igloo
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I think refund in general is fine compromise, as council seemingly was very against giving us anything "fair", whole part of not all fuel qualifying feels unfair though, I hadn´t thought about that back then.
Also hadn´t realized those not qualifying amounts would get this horrible conversion rate, don´t get why that rate is so bad, when people didn´t buy it super cheap.

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I am obv biased as well though, as kieran not reading dms made me unable to spend it back then...

tacit shadow
lucid oasis
tacit shadow
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this is what i found - metaedge . gg / illuvium

dire remnant
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Had a open ticket for the last weeks in which I asked if I can get information about the amount of eth I am eligible for. Result:

My last Msg/Not getting scammed again:
"clear refund, since even in your eco-system I would get 169,55% with the eth compared to the fuel I got through your illegal scam convertion.

Got you rightfully sued already?

Keep in mind with this after sales value reduction I won't invest another cent. For your sake I hope your higher ups calculated this kind of costumer behavior as well...

Thank you for dealing with my ticket, I know this is not your fault, but it is still a scam..."

frozen igloo
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I do agree, hope it was calculated how many loyal customers this might have lost.

coarse current
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This one! 🙂

remote temple
coarse current
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Can you, even?

remote temple
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id like to know the situation

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so i can help

frozen igloo
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The topic is that fuel bought at high prices also got converted, but can’t be refunded.
We could argue well you lost all your purchasing power in the old system anyways so bad luck.

Other side is Labs/Dao gave refunds to anyone who would have profited if their economy down spiral and the ones who got the bad end, still get the bad end regardless.
So Labs/Dao just refunded „their loses“ and the people loses stay.

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It does sound very and if you put it this way, but it is also a fair reality tldr. imo.

dire remnant
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I am eligable for a refund, but this is my problem:

  • forcing value change like this remains illegal in my eyes (but lets ignore this, since nobody cares/takes responsibility anyway)
  • example numbers: I get 100 fuel after conversion - and after refund I can buy 165 fuel with that eth. Which means I have only disadvantages even while being eligible, because my loyalty to this project is either rewarded with extra work or less value than a new user gets.
  • I would have understood it if the project had diminished the advantages of old users compared to the starting point of new users, but transforming these advantages into disadvantages is a step that is shortsighted, stu***, even more illegal, not understandable, should get punished by users, trust breaking, not even blizzard was this bad,..........
remote temple
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this change is necessary but has consequences. I do hope it can fix the broken economy. i didnt spend much at all, only around 0.5eth on fuel and illuvials. tbh i wrote them off, so why dnt we try something

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btw blizzard did shut down diablo 3 RMAH

dire remnant
remote temple
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fuel supply was infinite and we had lack of demand. how do you fix a downward spiral

lucid oasis
remote temple
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we def cant afford 1:1 conversion

lucid oasis
remote temple
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perry did the calculation of the total amount of fuel

lucid oasis
remote temple
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no

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debt is debt

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if we did 1:1 conversion, every 100m fuel is $1m fuel debt. and we definitely had much more than 100m fuel

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on top of 1st fuel crate airdrop and 2nd fuel crate airdrop

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and silv2

lucid oasis
# remote temple debt is debt

it was clearly outlined in the discussion that the conversion rate isn't about revenue but about saving the ingame economy

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you saying it was all about revenue?

remote temple
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we had 2 issues we wanted to fix:

  1. 3 fuels were unnecessary complexity
  2. Fuel prices were in a downward spiral caused by infinite supply met with low demand
  3. Free market fuel pricing obviously didnt work

The solution

  1. Convert fuel into 1
  2. Use fixed price
  3. Need to convert the supply to reflect the new price and increased illuvials rarity. we definitely cannot afford 1:1 conversion. so a refund is a neutral solution
neat harness
lucid oasis
remote temple
lucid oasis
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nvm

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i just assume it was based on feelings in that case

remote temple
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i told you, we were given the amount of fuel, and ive told you it was much more than 100m

lucid oasis
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ok

remote temple
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like how is it logical for us to agree to a 1:1 if it means much more than $1m in fuel debt.

lucid oasis
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maybe from 1 or two crazy peeps, but mostly it got mentioned from council

remote temple
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everyone has their own conversion rate

lucid oasis
# remote temple debt is debt

you know that those millions of "debt" that you erased with the conversion rate, is not revenue you now get, right?

dire remnant
# remote temple everyone has their own conversion rate

right, and dr. spoon rightfully pointed out that there a good and bad conversion rates:
Examples:

1:89 is extremely bad, because it burns invested capital on a extremely high rate, severely punishes loyal costumers - even compared to the starting point of new costumers, breaks trust.....
1:1 is bad because of economy, nft value.....
MAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYBE there are conversion rates in between? Just maybe. I mean who am I to know that there are numbers between 1 and 89, but math and foresight never seemed to be the strong side of the executives

remote temple
lucid oasis
# remote temple i dnt understand what ur saying

council didn't calculate the actually estimated missed revenue?

can't say it exactly since there's also different options to spend fuel on.
But again, here you could also do scenarios. For example if all fuel would be spent on drone runs.

remote temple
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what if you are happy with one number, and a month later someone else complain and want a different number

dire remnant
dire remnant
remote temple
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therefore the refund

dire remnant
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which is just your unfair emergency escape, because you completely strip loyal costumers of their deserved reward for sticking around
*Just because you can't or are too lazy to optimize in regards of this problem

frozen igloo
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the refund though in it´s current versions basically refunded "the losses/debt by labs/DAO" and kept the revenue from "people´s loses"

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As narrative it arguably sounds worse than the conversion rate.

remote temple
remote temple
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wait until u find out what happened to nike's RKFT lol

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they dnt even pay the server that host the jpegs anymore

frozen igloo
dire remnant
frozen igloo
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I think it is also insane, that 89:1 was used for fuel bought above 25% of toprail.
What is the thought process there?
You could easily give people $-equivalent at least.
(or would that be debt/revenue lose in your mind, that the project coudn´t survive as well?)

remote temple
dire remnant
# remote temple

this vote would have kiiled my trust in humanity if I had any left

frozen igloo
# remote temple

The options council gave people, while having a very hostile attitude was erase their value or refund, it is rather bm to tell people we are generous rulers in this case.

remote temple
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what hostile attitude

remote temple
frozen igloo
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You can read back on all the chats, examples like scoriox refering to this as people exploiting the system.

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Whole 89:1 for everyone imo was hostile as well, erasing people´s purchasing power.

remote temple
frozen igloo
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Ligyron example is very good imo, we played in a casino and some won, then got thrown out.

dire remnant
remote temple
lucid oasis
remote temple
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some people did tweet about speculating on fuel tho

frozen igloo
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Council rationales also talked from a pov of this wasn´t DAO/Labs mistake and they do something nice to people, which is swapping who made mistakes.

lucid oasis
remote temple
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so u prefer that we just let fuel price go lower in perpetuity?

lucid oasis
neat harness
# frozen igloo Council rationales also talked from a pov of this wasn´t DAO/Labs mistake and th...

Concur. Whoever let 100M units of fuel accumulate and do nothing proactively from August '24 - March '25 should be held accountable on Labs like any other reasonable business venture. Instead, we get the first "emergency proposal" in 4 years and likely put together by a ChatGPT session and 89:1 ratio based on a zero demand environment for that landholders yielded from their investment. Nobody who owns land that is not a Labs sheep is buying this facade. I have heard from over one hundred landholders and nobody is buying this EP-1 narrative.

frozen igloo
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I think changes to that would be on Council at the time to be fair.
I don´t think Labs without them or at least approval could implement a stop/bottom rail/w.e. else.

neat harness
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Well, I think if Epoch 9 had taken seriously the need for proper disclosures from Labs to Landholders when I wrote the IIP, it might have helped as well. Bottom line is that the DAO has been empowered with our capital for this digital art studio we call Labs to destroy our capital with no forward guidance on what they were doing.

frozen igloo
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I obv disagree with that notion, but this isn´t topic of the thread.

neat harness
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Understood

remote temple
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u dnt think that the fact that we approved a refund shows that we made a mistake? Dude we could have just ignored the community but we didnt

neat harness
remote temple
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thanks for the appreciation

neat harness
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It is a fact. The first two people that should be comped from the DAO's treasury ought to be you two. Then I would start cutting pay for anyone associated with Zero's development up to this point if any is left.

frozen igloo
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He said you are rewarding speculators and people could never spend this amount, which are both arguably untrue at the very least.

You kicked the speculators out after they won at the casino, you didn´t reward them.

Screenshot_109.png
remote temple
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look i understand that some are still not made whole. Lets work on that, but complaining on refund is being whiny

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and unreasonable

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and remember this refund is paid by the DAO, we just have enough to refund people

frozen igloo
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I mean if you wanna be anecdotal etc. I don´t think it is fair that people have to complain and that any of this happened.
Also that you only want to "make people whole" because they complain.
I don´t think having negative words towards people using your economy is in any way reasonable or smart.

This is a bad precedent, as anyone who wants to argue "ILV bad studio, bad decesions, cash grab" as we have seen over the years now has an amazing example of "ILV kicked the winners out, kept the losers money".

This is a pretty tough topic to handle and surely there wasn´t a perfect way, but trying to blame people for being upset is ridiculous, at the very least could own up to made mistakes and wanting to correct again instead of trying to push w.e. gives the most cents in revenue.

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You can also paraphrase tweets from me saying "surely ILV will do something about this economy, but they won´t rug us on our purchasing power", as I used to believe such a scenario like atm would be unthinkable in the past.

remote temple
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how can i read your mind if you never say whats wrong

frozen igloo
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I have clearly spoken out about many things I believe go wrong over the last years even, idk what you refer to.
I am the last person to not speak my mind, no matter the short term "negative consequences"

remote temple
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you said it's not fair that we have to wait to do something until people made complain

dire remnant
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perfectly summarized: ILV kicked the winners out, kept the losers money

frozen igloo
remote temple
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this is a dao, we make changes based on feedback and ideas

frozen igloo
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What feedback made the emergency proposal happen?

remote temple
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like im supposed to spend time with my daughter on a saturday but im here for the past hours talking to u

frozen igloo
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That is unfortunate for your daughter, idk what it matters to the chat.

remote temple
remote temple
frozen igloo
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Unfortunate my assesment of how Labs/Dao treats customers was off.

remote temple
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i think we are aware of how bad the sentiment is.
people calling rugs. it has been tough. but i still believe what we have done was necessary, of course with mistakes too.
and we are willing to take the bad rep to have the slightest chance of turning the situation over

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frankly, our ecosystem was setup really really bad, and i have been calling that for years.
but here comes the bitter pills

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we had to make tough choices

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are they the right choices? we'll find out

neat harness
# remote temple i think we are aware of how bad the sentiment is. people calling rugs. it has be...

This is the obvious truth. Let's call it like it is. The current/past elected IMC/ICC and all of the DAO are serfs. "Not your keys, not your coins" is the golden rule of crypto. We have empowered a few individuals with the full final settlement custody of our capital with no real checks and balances for years. And its playing out really badly for us, Framework Ventures, and the other VCs that Farmework convinced to jump in this blackhole with them.

outer shore
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Dw guys all is good. I'm not running again, will stop me from fucking everything up in future!

remote temple
neat harness
frozen igloo
outer shore
outer shore
neat harness
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You have got to cut the old man some slack. Dejected and degenerate are not too far apart. I hope and pray King K and Framework are half as good as you believe them to be as fundraisers!

coarse current
outer shore
frozen igloo
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Will there be news on this or is it something like let’s hope people stop talking about it?

remote temple
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We talked about it last week and this week. the amount to be refunded will be too much. will be in our 5 may meeting minutes.
im just waiting for perry to confirm the number.

frozen igloo
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Well, so the threw winners out, kept losers money thing stays true then.
That´s sad to see. I hope it won´t cause more harm than good longterm, scary at least.

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How come it won´t even be a reasonable conversion rate?

lucid oasis
frozen igloo
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Comparing to all the marketing fuel, that´s minted for free, fuel crates etc., surely this isn´t "more than labs can handle as well"?

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Which btw is a bad argument, as it says we fucked up, but we did it so often, can´t afford to do the fair thing.

frozen igloo
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Also could this too high number be disclosed?

remote temple
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uve done enough damage with thr first fuel crate and the pending 2nd fuel crate

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surely u dnt want the DAO to have much more debt do u

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the fuel refund is already 70eth plus 40eth outstanding to landowners

remote temple
frozen igloo
# remote temple surely u dnt want the DAO to have much more debt do u

idk, I don´t want the DAO to lose even more customers and have this hanging over them forever
this will likely be far worse than using that 72M number from landsale, people will forever be able to say well ILV-did just take people´s money, cash grab, soft rug, w.e. words they wanna use

frozen igloo
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every other time people lost money on Illuvium you can blame market or other circumstances as well, this time, very tough to make an excuse outside of "we made so many mistakes, can´t afford to even refund in in-game currency, that we can print, as we have so little demand for products or people wanting to speculate on these super underpriced ones atm", which surely will be used against the DAO at some point, same as landsale numbers etc.

remote temple
neat harness
frozen igloo
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Yeah rug thing is the worst label, but how would you make people not use that word when people used money to get purchasing power, then power got taken away.

If stuff like fuel crates would be this bad, EP1 could have included that as well e.g., those were at least airdroped instead of bought.
Similar story to silv2, been a long debate to give that a end date e.g.

neat harness
remote temple
hushed onyx
frozen igloo
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I think it is mostly capping and just saying „we can sacrifice few people who are unhappy, prob will still be even if we try to make it right anyways, people will just forget“

frozen igloo
neat harness
# frozen igloo Idk anything about that topic on a recent note. I assume we are talking cents le...

Talking about Beyond Wave 1-3 revenues that should have been bought with fuel. Obviously, the functionality was never built to do so. This by far the lion share of revenue generated from product sales up to this point for the project; est. $500k (we do not know exactly due to lack of transparency) x 5% = $25,000 that is rightfully landholders, and a 12-24mo interest free loan on it. The biggest issue is the team’s credibility for not doing what they said for not doing what they said they would do month over month.

strong locust
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Not just that Multi-account policy allowing only one 1 account per household is very frustrating after inviting family members and friends I'm the only one that can earn from the game? This is very stup!d and irritating.

frozen igloo
frozen igloo