Illuvial Levels in Arena & how to obtain them

[median lynx]

The Council would like to know the community’s opinion about levels for Illuvials in leviathan.

Currently, the system is designed to give your illuvials as big of a stat boost for level as it does for having perfect stats. And the only possible way to get to max level on your illuvial, besides third party solutions, is many days of grinding the Overworld.

There are potential problems with this: it is virtually impossible for players to enjoy **only **the Leviathan Arena. They are forced to grind in another game, currently Overworld, to level up their illuvials in order to compete. This is problematic because a strategy game player should not be forced into an open-world grind; it is a very different game and could deter many potential players from enjoying the game they actually want to play.

Another issue is that players might opt to pay someone to level up their illuvials—a process that is currently clunky when handled by third parties and requires waiting days until it is completed. This ties into another downside: a whale who just wants to throw money to get the best illuvial on the spot will likely not find any max-level, max-stat illuvial on the illuvidex (of which there is less than one per illuvial listed right now).
Alternatively, they might purchase a max-stats, zero-level illuvial and then feel cheated by having a perfect stat illuvial that has only half perfect stats when playing.

One option is to keep the levels as is but make them easier to acquire by removing the week-long grind to level 60.
This could involve introducing illuvial burning for levels or awarding more experience in the arena so players can level them up while playing the game they use them in.
The drawback to this is that it could lead to overburning, effectively eliminating the weak stat, low-level illuvials because they would all be burned into better stat, higher-level illuvials. This could undermine the entire purpose of having both stats and levels (since without weak illuvials, there are no strong ones).
Another potential drawback is that bots could exploit the increased experience for simply playing arena without any competitive restrictions, giving them a free pass to monopolize the level trade.

Conversely, removing levels from the arena and making them matter only in the game mode where they are acquired (OW / MMO-Lite) would disadvantage current holders who have already invested time in improving their illuvials.

TLDR:

Problems:

• Leviathan Arena Players should not be forced into the Overworld because of the level system
• The Grind for levels takes too long and is currently not a fun activity that should be forced on players
• Whales don't have an option to fast track levels, and could feel cheated buying perfect stat illuvials that are gate-kept by their levels.

Solutions:

• Remove Levels impact in Arena
  • Current Level System does not improve the gameplay of Arena
• Receive more XP when playing Arena, so you can level up without being pushed into another Game
  • Gauntlet players are not forced into other Games
• Make Levels purchasable directly or via Battlepass
  • this helps attaching a Prize-Tag to the time investment that is required to do it yourself. (similar to ADR)
• Players can "sell" XP via their ILV:Zero Training Gyms
  • Likely not feasible due to downsized team and current full focus on arena + mmo lite.
• Burn Illuvials for XP
  • Risky as this requires a complex and perfectly balanced economic model.

These are some of the pros and cons I have gathered from discussions in this thread, with community members, council members, and team members.

Please feel free to post your feedback and opinions on this matter so that we can collectively find a solution.

Thank you.

[stoic linden]

If the concern is that leveling up is too grindy, then the solution is very simple: make it less grindy.
Provide better ways to grind level:

• give more XP from OW
• give comparable or better XP from arena so people dont have to play OW
• burn same illuvials for xp
• illuvials gym in IZ
• or even offer people to Purchase Level (with limits)

[median lynx]

Illuvial Levels in Arena and how to obtain them - Yes / No / Change

Illuvial Levels in Arena & how to obtain them

[bronze igloo]

I dont think max level should be easy to get. It should take a while, or take using multiple parts of the eco system.

Burning Illuvials should give some xp but nothing crazy.

Training gyms in Zero would be a great way to speed up the process. Maybe taking a week to get to level 40 and another 4 weeks to get to level 60

I do think the xp gained from gauntlet battles is a little too low and could be bumped up a touch, but it shouldn't be the primary way to level illuvials.

[crisp lance]

You can add level up/xp crates/xp boosts 25-50-100% as battle pass rewards. I think levels should stay and be improved on

[stoic linden]

yes there are so many ways to address this other than getting rid of level from leviathan

Team can also give lower weightings for stats from level too instead of removing them entirely.
people have spent money and time to level their illuvials

For me leveling gives a sense of progression to

[crisp lance]

Yep and bonds you with your creatures, definitely shouldn't be removed

[stoic linden]

im starting out genshin impact, and tbh the game feels a bit grindy for a gacha game

they put "adventure level" wall to the main story line so people need to do other stuff

but they gave so many ways to earn XP

[crisp lance]

Would be cool if we have endless dungeon type of arena where we fight endlessly with ranger combat + a few illuvials. The higher you go the more XP and loots you get. Would be a paid feature

You won't catch illuvials there but the XP gain will be much higher than OW

[stoic linden]

Yes exactly, it is only a matter of balancing the XP sources and give alternatives. I still dont see a good argument to get rid of level in leviathan. i probably can understand it's coming from people who have not spent time to level up theirs

people can play normal gauntlet, no one is forcing everyone to play leviathan

but if you want to be a min-maxer grinder/spender you have the option to play leviathan

Illuvials level is an opportunity for the project to generate revenue.
The project cannot just sustain on F2P players, unless we will only depend on D1sks minters

[crisp lance]

Yeah but we must also make sure if leveling is going to be paid, then it should provide enough utilities to where the players would want to do it. Same with catching illuvials

Otherwise leviathan will end up a ghost town with 50 whales

[stoic linden]

It just a matter of balancing.
having 0 whales because they feel rugged is not a good idea too

[crisp lance]

For sure, I only have a few lvl 60s and that was a pain to get there. There are people with 70-80 lvl 60s. That's thousands of hours

[blazing prairie]

Arena is free. OW costs. By leaving XP points in OW only we are encouraging people to actually spend money on the game or to buy the Illuvials and have someone else spend the money to play OW.

Levels should be hard. Things that are easy to obtain are not treasured. They also should be important in the game.

nASTY's idea of xp crates is a solution. If people don't want to do the grind to get their Illuvials up then let them pay to do it. We need to make money. We can get it from crates or from OW play. XP should not be given away for free. Or how about you buy XP credits and at the end of a regular Arena game you can choose to spend those credits on different Illuvials you used in the battle? Make people pay money and play to get XP points.

It is not virtually impossible to get level 60 Illuvials. Whales can rent from Polemos, buy from someone or have people level up for them. A week is not long to wait and people in the community will start specializing in doing it. It is however virtually impossible to do it with low investment of time and money but since Leviathan is supposed to be our Elite game that is how it should be.

[median lynx]

I mostly agree with the takes above, I think the core audience that Leviathan is designed for are whales. Not hardcore grinders, we will find those in the Leviathan, but it wasn't designed for them.
I think if we go down the route of "buying levels", there should be a straight forward way for whales to buy them directly from Illuvium bypassing all time investment. In similar fashion to AutomatedDroneRuns.

About the "the level grind is the progression / effort that we need", I disagree, the progression / effort for a highly competitive game like the autobattler gauntlet is your ranking / gametime.
You don't need to have a grind besides the grind of playing ranked for ranking. You can offer it as an extra, but the genre of strategy games does not depend on something like that. Example is every other autobattler and competitive Card Game.

[stoic linden]

Marvel Rivals has spesific hero proficiency ranks. People grind them unlock unique skins

Im not saying we have to add them, but we already have it. People already grinded levels for leviathan.

Comparing leviathan to other autobattler is not a good argument. TFT doesnt have P2W mode

[median lynx]

Yeah lets compare it to a hero shooter like Marvel Rivals instead. 🤣

[eager harness]

Burn illuvials for levels.

[stoic linden]

Do you have an example of an autobattler like leviathan?

Where the heroes/champs have random stats, can be fused, have levels

[wispy goblet]

Na i just want be a lord c&d/moon/groot 😄

[stoic linden]

im going for laser eyes hulk

[cursive cloud]

I think levels should be earned xp in both free and leviathan arena. This will encourage grinding more in arena. Alternatively xp can only be earned with a battle pass so that will encourage more spending. Players should not be forced to go to another game to level. However I do think gyms on land for exp is a great idea also to be added.

[golden kelp]

Levels need a way to be gotten instantly by paying, as long as that's not in the game or levels aren't just completely removed no potential whale who just came into the game is gonna buy a team when they hear they have to grind half a year to level it all up

[golden kelp]

raid shadow legends/epic 7/gachas are probably the closest thing, these are known pay2win games and they're way more accessible than current levi so that's not a good sign

[hexed marlin]

Is levelling fun currently?

[golden kelp]

in ow? it's a chore, i don't know how you can ever make it fun when it's not the point of the game, mmo's been having this problem for decades

honestly why don't you make fuel based survival specifically for leveling? standardize levels there so you can actually level and just gain xp on your team based on round reached

[hexed marlin]

fun is in the eye of the beholder, but I would argue that if levelling was not fun for the majority of the playerbase those mmos wouldn't have taken off (probably as a function of the combat system feel/quest design etc)

so with that lens: is levelling fun currently?

[golden kelp]

mmos took off in spite of leveling tho, current ow leveling is atrocious as someone who did it 12 hours a day for 3~ months

[crude ridge]

Best idea!

My opininon about topic
Levels is important. So many players spend their time for it. I have 80% of all of illuvials with average on 50 lvl. I spent on that about 6 month.
You SHOULD talk when Mainnet was started that level is nothing - but from start you say that levels its very important. So many players do that. You cannot delete the level bonuses !

[full cape]

Do not attach too much importance to this, it takes a couple of hours to upgrade the illuvival from 0 to 40. And the difference between level 40 and 60 is currently 8%, which can be offset by the player's skill. Of course, if you want to be more successful than others, you have to spend money, that's always been the case, and it's fair to the other participants. This is not the first time this topic has been discussed, although the team has taken a step towards free players by lowering the influence of the level. I think we should leave the mechanics unchanged, but adding burning illusions for experience would be a great idea, it's unlikely that people will burn good material for fuse.

[hexed marlin]

Ok, so can we agree then that from a new player acquisition perspective, the current levelling system is a net negative given it is a "atrocious chore"?

New players probably won't care until they "convert" to Leviathan player, but finding out there's an "atrocious chore" between current state and max potential of your purchase won't feel good as mentioned above

[golden kelp]

I'll make a short list with the problems when im out of game

[hexed marlin]

Why did you do an "atrocious chore" for 12 hours a day for 90 days? Genuinely curious

[golden kelp]

money, leviathan

[full cape]

absolutely not, having bought a level 15 illuvial with 3-4 characteristics from the market, it will be weaker than my illuvial with 4-5 and 40 level characteristics by some 10-15%, and the difference in price and effort is enormous. You just want to remove the entire competitive nature of the game with a single button. what is it worth for an interested player to spend a week of time and put his deck in order by pumping at least level 40? Yes, you can't do it for free, but that's what Ranked mode is for. For Leviathan, you will have to invest time and money, otherwise, if you want to earn more, work harder.

[hexed marlin]

Agreeing that something is a net negative for new players doesn't mean we will (or I want to) remove it

[hexed marlin]

Ok, so then can we agree the only reason the levelling system is kept is because leviathan speculation has happened for it?

[golden kelp]

yea

[stoic linden]

WoW started as grindy. They focused on immersive questing but that changed over the years to make leveling much easier, even offering boost to skip to raid/dungeon

Then we have classic

[hexed marlin]

Grindy can be fun, a good chunk of players find grinds fun. The question is "is this particular grind fun"?

Would you rather spend 100 hours to level 1-60 in wow classic or spend 100 hours levelling illuvials (exempting future potential monetary gainz)?

[full cape]

from level 1 to 40 is a day of work. of course, if you want to be an absolute leader and pump everyone up to level 60, you will have to invest a lot of effort and money, that's what leadership is for. there should be levels in the game. both illuvials and players🫡

[golden kelp]

leveling in ow is not a game it's a job, nothing about itself is fun, there's no quest there's no skill testing there's no partying there's just wasting your time to speculate on making money, arena is an actual game, you don't hate your life playing it most of the time

[hexed marlin]

So the levelling system is like a sentient being, it exists because it exists, self-perpetuating and unstoppable

The discussion should be imo:

For the long term viability of the project, does the "new player harm" for a boring progression system outweigh making the current speculators happy?

[full cape]

let's say we remove levels from leviathan, then what difference will there be between players who buy a deck with 3-4 characteristics for next to nothing, and players who invested a lot of money in leveling up and merging higher characteristics, I'll tell you - there will be practically none. Thus, we can safely rename the Leviathan mode to Ranked, and pretend that nothing happened.

[golden kelp]

the leveling system is a problem introduced by the devs needing to make money, if the goal was to make the game as good/fun as possible it wouldn't exist (in it's current state definetly)

[hexed marlin]

One of the "perks" of live service games, hypercharged by NFT gaming, iteration is much more difficult:

• Release a system, most players don't like it, but some decide to jump in
• Very hard to iterate on systems because of "investment" (not just time like live service, but also money)

[craggy panther]

Hello everyone, friends!

First of all, I want to say that I’m excited—we are finally getting the true hardcore game mode we’ve been waiting for for years. That alone is already a victory!

Now, let's talk about experience.
How can you become theoretically the best player in Leviathan right now?
1️⃣ High skill level.
2️⃣ A fat wallet.
3️⃣ An unhealthy amount of time, friends, or helpers to grind Illuvials.

Let’s go over some popular ideas.

1️⃣ Increasing the amount of experience gained
This would devalue:
🔸 The money whales have spent on workers grinding their Illuvials.
🔸 The effort of players who lived in Overworld for months.
🔸 The importance of points 2 and 3.

Result: A wave of negativity.

2️⃣ Completely removing levels from Leviathan
The consequences would be exactly the same as in point 1.
Result: Another wave of negativity—which we don’t need.

3️⃣ Training halls in Zero
This would be a fantastic solution:
✅ Still requires financial investment.
✅ Finally gives landowners real value for their assets.
Obvious problem?
Kieran mentioned in March that Zero’s development is on hold. And we needed a working Leviathan yesterday.

4️⃣ Battle Pass with bonus XP rewards
A great solution:
✅ Players still have to spend money.
✅ Reduces grindy mechanics.
✅ Generates revenue for the project through Battle Pass sales.
✅ Existing 60+ level players don’t feel cheated—new players will still have to invest a lot to catch up.

5️⃣ Illuvial burning system
A potentially good idea, but risky:
🔹 Requires a complex and perfectly balanced economic model.
🔹 With a downsized dev team, this could take way too long to implement.
But we need a solution in the next month.

Tomorrow’s Overworld event will flood the game with even more weak and useless Illuvials. Burning them wouldn’t be a bad idea.

6️⃣ No changes at all
❌ New whales won’t feel comfortable joining.
Imagine being a moneybag. You want max stats and level 60+. How do you get there?
🔹 Live in Overworld for years?
🔹 Trust some random person in Discord to grind for you and hope they don’t scam you?
🔹 Deal with delays due to human factors?
This is absurd, friends.

Conclusion
The best solutions are 3 (Zero) and 4 (Battle Pass).
5 (Illuvial burning) is also good, but let’s be realistic—the wait would be too long. And even after launch, we’d have months of bugs.

[golden kelp]

Ok, problems with leveling:

• chore feeling - time waster - load into run, see illuvial -> waste time shooting for 30 seconds-> load into battle ->loading screen 15 seconds, take 1 minute to position your team, take 2 minutes to finish the fight, exit - loading screen 15 seconds, repeate 5-10 times, go into menu->shroom every illuvial -> repeat this whole cycle of time wasting for an hour, do this for 30-50(?) hours for 6(?) illuvials level, realize you now have 100 more of these to go.
• 0 skill checks, 0 interesting things happening at all, just a complete chore that adds nothing for the player.
• no partying/social interaction.
• there is objectively 0 things that can even be fun in the whole leveling process, the player gets nothing out of it but wastes their time to gamble on making money with leviathan.

[hexed marlin]

Good outline, I'm sure there are some other solutions as well that haven't or have been thought of

That said, it doesn't make the levelling system more fun, it "gets it out of the way" for payment

It doesn't make the experience more fun, it asks you to pay to not have to do the experience

[full cape]

I don't understand one thing, you want to let everyone into the Leviathan mode on the most equal terms, then why do we need this mode at all if we already have Ranked. you can then remove this mode, and there will be no more dissatisfied with either the levels or the characteristics, the game will turn into a full free-to-play model that will collapse as soon as your budget runs out, shouldn't we take into account the income for the development of the project in the long term or only the boredom of new players, web3 games come primarily for money and then for an interesting game, that's a fact, yes, we could raise this issue if we had a full-fledged OW game so that the levels had an unacceptable value. , and making such decisions when we have nothing to use levels except Leviathan mode is irrational.

[golden kelp]

you can't make leveling 100 illuvials fun if it takes months closer to a year, you can make leveling a core fun with quests and progression

or let me reprhase, you can never make leveling fun, but you can make leveling not be a focus but a result of progressing to the game, which can be fun and leveling there would just happen naturally.
nobody plays palworld and thinks "i need to level", the leveling just happens as u're playing the game

[craggy panther]

I agree with you.
Leviathan should remain a hardcore mode.
And as you mentioned earlier—Ranked exists for everything else.
Here, you need a fat wallet, top-tier skill, and fully leveled Illuvials.

However, I believe that if a player is willing to spend an extra $30,000 on the game to become competitive by tomorrow, it’s perfectly reasonable for them to also spend a fortune on a Battle Pass to gain significant XP bonuses.

1️⃣ The project generates revenue.
2️⃣ We don’t feel cheated—they spent money, so it’s fair.
3️⃣ It removes the barrier for wealthy new players.
Right now, if you’re Elon Musk and want to play Leviathan, you simply can't—even with the best workers, leveling up takes too long.

A new player spends money and becomes competitive – great competition, I’m all for it.

A new player starts whining and demanding the removal of leveling – that’s not competition, that’s ruining Leviathan, I’m against it.

[full cape]

I personally upgraded the deck in which all the eluvials are 1.3.4.5 shooting ranges from 0 to 40 levels and it took me no more than a month, if we don't want to spend even that much time on it, then what kind of game is this in which you get the maximum advantage by simply spending 100-200 dollars to buy average illuvials and more from you There is no problem.

[golden kelp]

how are you even typing that with a straight face, lvl 40 is not even halfway to level 60, 50 to 60 is where 80% of the time is spent

[craggy panther]

Yes, that's correct.
But I’m talking about maximal results. To take down a raid boss like Whity, 50+ levels aren’t enough—you need almost all level 60s.

I choose the Overworld grind.
If a wealthy player chooses to throw money at the screen, I have no problem with that.

[full cape]

I wrote earlier that the difference between 40 and 60 levels is 8%, and for the majority of players, especially beginners, it is not so big, yes, it will greatly affect the battles of professionals, but now we are talking about new players.

[golden kelp]

what do beginner players have to do with this thread at all? 8% difference at the top is the difference between you playing the mode or dropping it cuz you can't compete

[craggy panther]

To summarize everything I wanted to say, I can put it into just a few sentences:
1️⃣ Levels in Leviathan should stay.
2️⃣ Add expensive paid options for leveling up for wealthy players.
3️⃣ Ignore the complaints about leveling difficulty—we already have Ranked, but we need a hardcore mode.

https://tenor.com/view/bryan-cranston-drop-the-mic-mic-drop-gif-12078516

[terse spindle]

I would keep level as it is now. and also make them matter in Leviathan, and in other “future games” as well.

I also think it’s fine that there is a “grindy” way to obtain levels. But as also mentioned, there should be more options to gain levels for those that rather pay then spend the time, (similar to people wanting to use ADR instead of spending the time in OW to get Illuvials).

• Battlepass could give a bonus to XP gain in OW and Arena.

• Illuvial Gym in ILZ. (build up to 3 gyms, Tier 1-3). Either send specific Illuvials to the building. (would be cool to re-use that building where you could display your Illivial, we had in the beginning). Or produce “XP Power Ups” that can be sent to OW and used as consumables.

• Burning Illuvials for XP is a dangerous path, as we don't want to eliminate “bad stats Illuvials” completely, otherwise the “good stat Illuvials” lose their purpose and value. But it would make sense to add another “burn mechanic”, so maybe if we could have a system where you could burn one Illuvial to gain a level jump from 1 to 20, and one (level 20+ Illuvial) from 20-40, that might work.

There is a sense of accomplishment from leveling to “Max level”, and for some, grinding XP is a “fun” part of the game and should not be something you can just accomplish in a day or two. but there needs to be a balance, so it doesn't become too much of a chore, the current OW has a bit too many obstacles to make it “fun”, but the new MMO Light might be better suited to have an element of “Illuvial XP grind” included. (I have leveled Illuvials to 60 myself, and also used to grind in Everquest for many hours, so I don't mind grinding, I also collected almost all of the Illuvials now, by catching them myself and didn't buy anything from the marketplace. So this element is for me a “fun” part of the game, but I can 100% related to people that dont want to spend time doing this, and it would be good with these “payed” options.

[craggy panther]

That's right.

[stoic linden]

OW need questing and real action combat

[craggy panther]

Adding bosses and cooperative gameplay would definitely make leveling in Overworld more fun.

But let's be realistic – the Leviathan leaderboard is coming in about a month.
It's unlikely we'll see a well-polished Overworld experience anytime soon.

Maybe we should focus on something quick to implement, like Battle Pass or training gyms?

[full cape]

we are removing levels from Leviathan, and almost any player can afford a deck of illusions with 3-4 characteristics. Then what's the difference between Ranked and Leviathan modes. Does it make a difference if you have $200 or not? We will also lose the value of illusions with high stats, because they make no sense without a high level of leveling.

I'm sorry, I've written the same thing in different words many times. But I hope you get the point.

[median lynx]

I highly doubt that training gyms are something that can be implemented quick.

[craggy panther]

Then take a look at the Battle Pass.

We already have plenty of Milestone quests.
Just rename it to Battle Pass, add some nice visuals, and design the rewards.

This isn’t something unrealistic.

[median lynx]

implementing giving illuvials xp via things outside of the game might be more work than we anticipate aswell. This is something that has not been implemented in any shape or form yet I believe.

I think the quick solutions that do not outright remove the levels are:

• A lot more XP earned in the Arena
• Remove Levels until there is a proper solution for our problems, like via Training Gyms, Burn, Battlepass or Purchase Levels directly

This is just an assumption from my limited knowledge, I'm sure the team can give us more info which ways are feasible in the long and short term, once we have finalized outlining all the possible and most favoured ways of dealing with this issue

[craggy panther]

My friend, I respect your opinion.
But all the points you've suggested will trigger a wave of negativity.

Just open Twitter—Illuvium isn’t associated with anything positive right now.
We're already dealing with tons of FUD.

Now imagine adding all the people who would feel betrayed by this decision:

1️⃣ Those who spent countless hours leveling up.

2️⃣ Those who invested a lot of money into progression.

[median lynx]

I also have read a fair amount of feedback from people that value the long term success of Illuvium **over **the short term benefit to their investments and want to change the system for the better no matter what that means for their personal illuvials.

Sticking with a bad gameplay system because we are afraid of backlash from holders might be a bad idea. Improving the Game should the most important thing for anyone who is here for the long run I think.

[whole imp]

You have already destroyed everything that was possible in this game, the rarity of iluvials, stats, lands, now we are talking about levels. Guys, iluvial is not a game about fun, it is a difficult and hardcore game. If someone wants to have fun - let him buy the witcher and enjoy it. The game levi should be difficult for both new and old players. What do you expect, that a person will come, bring 100 dollars and feel good in the top 10?!! And I play different mobile games, not even web3, I brought tens of thousands of dollars and I am not in the top. Thanks to your policy, you have no investors and no community, and now you don't like that levels affect. So let them get off their asses, sell the ether and go pump experience. Naturally, with that ridiculous reward of 200 ILV that you indicated for the Levi tournament, no one will run either in OV or autodrones, why would anyone spend $1k to be able to get $50 a month. As I said before, you will squander the treasure trove on Gantlet in an attempt to attract free-to-play here, expect them to buy your screens and throw Levi, because they play it little. So far, you have done nothing to make both new and old want to play Leviathan mode. Where are the normal prizes for Leviathan, where is the delegation so that we can hire athletes, buy good stats and pump up levels. You do not have, like in other games, burning characters every season, you do not need to buy new characters every season. Even so, if new players come here, you will suffocate from oversaturation in half a year, which is what other web 3 games have encountered, although there is nothing left in the iluvium from web 3 games.

@hexed marlin

[crisp lance]

Introduce more fun options to gain XP then? Several viable ones were suggested already that shouldn't be too hard to implement.

Going for the easiest short term solution by removing the levels from leviathan is not it.

[craggy panther]

I understand what you're saying.

If levels are removed, my personal advantage will actually improve.
I will lose many competitors who have weak decks but high levels.

Removing levels or making progression easier would clear my path forward by several positions.

But notice that I’m not advocating for my own interest here.
I’m arguing against it.

Because I know what happens when a community becomes enraged.
It would be devastating for our project.

We must always listen to the active community—and never disappoint them if there’s another way.

[golden kelp]

i think this is the perfect mindset to have if you want your game to have actual players for sure

[craggy panther]

@median lynx See what I’m saying? Now imagine if his levels are taken away.

He's one of the wealthiest players.
And he's disappointed.

Illuvium needs to stop taking the words of complainers seriously and draw a clear distinction.

We have F2P Ranked and P2W Leviathan.

We should listen to F2P players for one mode and P2W players for the other.

Not the other way around.

I'll repeat.

We want a hardcore Leviathan mode.

We want a bloodbath.

We want it to be expensive.

We want it to be difficult.

We hate casualization.

[median lynx]

We must also be careful to not mistake the loud vocal minority as the community sentiment of the majority.

There is no guarantee that there will be an "outrage", like I said, I have seen more feedback for changing the current levels than against that.

Nothing is guranteed, but I think that improving our game gives Illuvium better chances of success than being scared about backlash.

[golden kelp]

If the whole point of leviathan is to be pay2win then why can't you pay to level 2nd, and why can't you buy the whole team on the market and jump into the game straight away first

[craggy panther]

Right now, @rugged scaffold is beating me. He has a well-leveled deck, while mine is weaker.

This happens due to two factors:

He has a higher skill level.

He has higher levels.

Now, let's make leveling easier for me.
Spoon's chances of winning will drop.

Let's remove levels entirely.
Spoon's chances of winning will drop even further.

This is unfair to him, considering he clearly invested time and money into leveling up.

[golden kelp]

Spoon's gonna be extatic when they shut down rewards for levi in 2 months and his illuvials and levels are worthless

[craggy panther]

That's exactly it. That's what I'm saying.

Open the market – there are plenty of Illuvials. Overworld players will thank you.

Add paid levels (expensive ones) – Kieran will thank you for topping up his wallet.

There won't be any aggression from already leveled-up players because you'll have to spend money.

[whole imp]

@median lynx
Problems:
Leviathan Arena Players should not be forced into the Overworld because of the level system - Man, do you know how much time is needed to get to the maximum lvl in WOW? In Axie infintity, you need to take 5 months to full up lvl for 1 Axie

The Grind for levels takes too long and is currently not a fun activity that should be forced on players -
You are not playing the game where you get fun, there is green in all games and it even now brings me pleasure.

Whales don't have an option to fast track levels, and could feel cheated buying perfect stat illuvials that are gate-kept by their levels. - I am okay with this, don't warry pls. 2 weeks with payment an dyou will b ehave full team 60 lvl

what you think is a problem is fun and pleasure for me. Why should we solve your problems, lack of money or time?

[median lynx]

We want a hardcore Leviathan mode.

We want a bloodbath.

We want it to be expensive.

We want it to be difficult.

We hate casualization.

Yes.

But, what's missing there is "We want to spend 100 hours in a bad gaming experience to level each of our illuvials before we can actually compete in Leviathan"

And that is the problem we are talking about I believe.

[whole imp]

its your opinion bad game

team can sell boost for OW for expirience by fuel any problem

[craggy panther]

How about conducting a targeted survey?

I'm talking about directly asking the opinion of each player who has serious aspirations in Leviathan mode. I mean those with competitive decks, not just a few Illuvials.

That way, you'll get their real opinion.

If you ask the general crowd, they'll always complain, pushing their own interests to get into Leviathan without earning it. Because here, you have to pay with time and money.

[median lynx]

I have not heard a single person say that they enjoy leveling to 60 in overworld.

[median lynx]

sure, that is the compromise that makes the most sense, give the option to buy levels and skip the time investment. similar to adr.

[craggy panther]

"what you think is a problem is fun and pleasure for me. Why should we solve your problems, lack of money or time? "

That's exactly what I'm saying.

If someone doesn't want to spend money or time on Leviathan, they lose.
That's how it should be.

[craggy panther]

Just add paid leveling to the Battle Pass.

Axeless spent a ton of money on workers.

Add a button: "Throw money at the screen and get XP."

It's fair.

And it removes unnecessary social interactions for such whales, along with the risk of being scammed.

Just make a good formula. A fair calculation.

[craggy panther]

yes-yes-yes

[median lynx]

If someone doesn't want to spend money or time on Leviathan, they lose.

Yes.

Do you think they should be forced to spend time in another game than Leviathan though? Could you see this pushing away possible leviathan players if you tell them they have to go into the overworld for 2 months after purchasing their Illuvials to be able to compete?

[whole imp]

thay can spend 3 days for 40-50 level with good stats and take top 10 with right hands? what is problem? We decrese impact level and stats - I don't see problem with this. But yes for 60 level you need more time its normal. Where is problem?

[median lynx]

I'm glad all sides from this small group seem agree that giving the option to pay for levels will solve the problems that we face regarding levels in leviathan.

I will step back now and wait for other people to voice their opinions, and possibly the team to give us some input on feasibility of implementations.

[craggy panther]

My friend, as I originally suggested:
Just add a button to "throw money at the screen and get levels."

That's exactly what Axeless was doing—just in an inconvenient way.

This can be implemented very easily.
For example: XP multiplier books or books with a fixed amount of XP.

That's what I'm talking about.

Please hear me out. I'm saying that:

Simply making XP easier to obtain is a crime.

Making XP easier to obtain through big spending is great for new whales.

[terse spindle]

Agree with this...

• Keep level as it is now. and make them matter in Leviathan.

• But add options to make it easier to gain XP, though Paid options. (like we did with ADR).

• If you don't want to pay, you can do so by grinding... playing OW and Arena, but it will take time to level an Illuvial to 60 only using this method.

[craggy panther]

Yes, yes, yes! That’s exactly what I’m talking about.

But you put it more briefly and clearly.
I support this.

[whole imp]

The difference in levels between 50 and 60 is negligible but requires huge resources. The team did so that there is no difference between 50 and 60. If a person is not able to pump 20 iluvials to level 50 in 3 days, then he is playing the wrong game. Many want to be at the top, earn without investment, sit at home and not work, or be an iron man 🙂 The ability to speed up leveling for gas, pay more than usual, this is OK. But let's be honest - no whale will come to a game in which the leaderboard reward = 3k. Why should he pump levels, collect Pokemon, hire players, and so on. This is a more serious problem now. Why whales shoul use autorun, fast up levels for earning 50-100$ in a month? And spend 3k?

Bro Tell me one thing how big should rewards be for leaderboard levi that whales and other start to up levels, play expensive run or autoran?

[median lynx]

But let's be honest - no whale will come to a game in which the leaderboard reward = 3k

As far as I know, the current amount for all rewards is 100% subject to change, and will drastically increase with playerbase and time. This is a warm up right now.

Bro Tell me one thing how big should rewards be for leaderboard levi that whales and other start to up levels, play expensive run or autoran?

AutoDroneRun is for people spinning the dice not for serious Leviathan whales, those will go to the marketplace, which should be the cheapest way to acquire high stat / level illuvials.

[whole imp]

It's good, but it doesn't work that way))) When the base grows, wasps fly to honey. When people understand that I spend so much and can earn so much, they come. When they see that players who have been here for 3 years with lvl 60 and fight for 100 bucks, and a new player needs to spend 2-3k to try to snatch these 100 bucks. They will never come here

its marketing rules

[bronze cave]

I am one of those who always chooses the long term longevity of the game over short term gains. And keeping levels IS the better option for the longevity of the game.

Removing them would indeed be the "short term" thinking that would ruin it for serious players, imo. Serious players want a degree of difficulty/price to be able to access the hardcore game mode.

I think we can see that potential fun ways to gain XP will be developed by the team, they just take time. Adding a paying option in the short term should give new whales a way to be in the game while still keeping a level of separation between ranked and leviathan modes.

Not to mention the need for the DAO to make money. Paying for XP would give another welcome avenue to get income, which is vital for all players.

[whole imp]

@median lynx I think if you came with the topic, we need to make leveling paid, some kind of boost for this - everyone would support you. But you touched a nerve - you called levels a problem that has already been cut in half and proposed a solution to remove levels or increase experience in the arena. This set us on fire) You need to choose your words very carefully))

[craggy panther]

That's what I'm talking about.
Exactly right.

Right now, leveling is making money for worker players.

But the project itself should be earning.
This will generate profit for landowners.

[stoic linden]

Hi paz
How many lv 50 or lv 60 with decent to perfect stats illuvials do you have?

i think it is important to know who are making the arguments for leviathan here

[hexed marlin]

😅

[median lynx]

I do not want to rule out any of the proposed solutions, rather gather as many as possible and see which ones are the favourite for the community.

I do not cater to the loud minority advocating for their bags.

My personal opinion does not matter, we are here to gather community sentiment. All I am trying to do is assist and get the ball rolling.

Nobody should change their mind because of toxicity or threats of it. I would like everyone to bring well informed arguments/takes and and together we can find the best way forward for the DAO.

Trying to keep our emotions out of it as much as possible and staying respectful towards people with other opions than our own.

[stoic linden]

Can you clarify who are you calling the "loud vocal minority"?

[whole imp]

Come on, what DAO are we talking about? There is none here and decisions are made without us. We have seen many times when such topics were flown in, and then they implemented it all, saying when millions of players will go. Alas, there is simply no trust here.

[golden kelp]

all the people who want levels are a loud minority, the people who don't want them aren't even here

[glad river]

I personally spent way more money and time i could afford into leveling and preparing for leviathan

I always thought levels were a major flaw in the system for arena but i held off making a thread or proposal because aaron months ago said in an ama that they would try without levels and im my mind it was sure they would stick with it if they were to try it

Leviathan is the ultimate end game and the only demand side of our ecosystem for now

We need to make this game fun and ease players transition there

The model is already gated by a big $ barrier. If you ask people not only to spend but to also grind hundreds of hours before they can compete no one is gonna come

Our audience is TFT players not WoW

I understand removing levels at this point would be very negative for many, im part of those. The way i see it is if we keep levels leviathan wont have enough ability to unboard players and the the wont be able to justify funding this gamemode, they will be forced or convince to go via the full f2p route and the ecosystem will all die with levithan

If we are only thinking about money @craggy panther @whole imp , the way i see it is if they remove lvls i lose hundreds of hours and couple hundreds/thousand $ but at the end of the day i will win much much much more because ill be able to compete and earn in a healthy game mode and make money off my ilv investments and land as leviathan is what starts the ecosystem

[hexed marlin]

Can't hoard rewards if there's no one to play against because they don't want to grind

what DOES help here is we have an open market and people can flip illuvials in level

[stoic linden]

lets just start the season and see from there, we can also lower the weight of level stats. It doesnt have to be equal traits

stats are already nerfed by half

Onboarding new players is very important, but keeping our loyal community is important too. the sentiment on X is already too negative about the project rugging the holders.
how do you expect to get new players if "rug" is what ur reading on X

pivots/changes/revamp are good but we have to slow down and reassess

[hexed marlin]

This argument is only valid if this decision will turn "rug" sentiment into "unrug" sentiment

[golden kelp]

this argument is not valid at all, removing levels doesn't rug the holders, it keeps their game mode alive and their illuvials worth something as opposed to a quick 10-20 ILV farm that cost u thousands of dollars and hours, and lets you sell the illuvials with good stats for decent to people who just wanna hop in and play, i don't understand how people can't get it that this game mode can't have a playerbase with the current system

[whole imp]

I don't know why, but when people have a label like council, they start thinking differently, as if someone is forcing them :). Why are we comparing TFT web 2 with levi web3, I think we closed this question when crated gauntlet = TFT. We have already given part of the rewards for web 3 to web 2 games. And we can talk for a long time, here we will slowly drag from gauntlet to web 3. But who will play your leviathan with a reward of 200 ilv when the free mode is the same 200 ilv. Who will pay for this, no one.

[stoic linden]

so the hours spent farming flint cap and ringnut, hours spent running around brightland fighting the same mobs flushed down the drain is not ?

like i said we can lower the bonus from level to compromise

[whole imp]

will be play only 50-70. New players wont be play - what is reason pay 1k for eraning 50$? in a month?) its methamactics for fun will have gaunlet

[golden kelp]

those hours are wasted no matter what, the only question is do you want the money to be wasted too or only the hours

[stoic linden]

would you be willing to compromise to a lower bonus stat from level?

[crisp lance]

The issue is how the XP is obtained, not XP/leveling itself. Leviathan must be as different from ranked gauntlet as possible, otherwise no one would would bother with it if they can play the free version. Therefore levels need to stay and be improved upon, even if it means delaying leviathan further

[golden kelp]

it's not about me, i'm gonna be farming my 20/40 ILV in the month the game mode's alive for and that's gonna be it, you don't have to appeal to me, you have to appeal to the people who AREN'T HERE

[whole imp]

I think we need to look not at why people don't want to grind, but at how we can push people to grind. Otherwise, sooner or later we'll end up playing rock paper scissors because we don't want to understand the mechanics, want grind, wont buy, want learn, want develop, etc.

[stoic linden]

How sensible it is to expect new people to come in when the loyal people are not staying

[craggy panther]

Thank you for the opinions, friends. 🤝
And for calling me the "loud minority."👍

I proposed saving levels and protecting (as some of you put it) the "shrimp" who could only survive in Leviathan because of the levels.

You’ve decided to take that chance away from them, or at least reduce their positions on the leaderboard.

Alright, no problem.

Sorry, friends with high levels and average stats, I was on your side and tried to defend your interests, even though it's not in my favor.

But you know how decisions are made in our "DAO."

[eager harness]

It's even worse. We payed to do it.

[crisp lance]

It is if the changes cater more towards f2p than p2w, but that's not the point.

[golden kelp]

there are no loyal people, there is no one here who actually wants to play levi for anything other than money, your goal is to have enough of those people to at least have a playerbase, you currently don't

[whole imp]

where else lower? then what's the point, why pump them up at all? reduce them by 2 times and talk about some kind of compromise? what game will they make money on?

[crisp lance]

I don't see people flocking towards non leviathan gauntlet either, meaning it's a complex issue not leveling only

[golden kelp]

that's exactly my point, you think with that in mind you're gonna have any reasonable queue timers in levi?

[stoic linden]

well then whats the point of this discussion

[crisp lance]

No, but removing the levels won't do much.

[crisp lance]

I don't know why these things are discussed only now.......

[whole imp]

although I agree to a compromise and you can do whatever you want - recalculate all my pumped characters from 0 to 60 at the current fuel rate and transfer this amount to my account in usdt or eth, there are not many players here who need this. You will cover the time, the costs of pumping and the costs that I paid the players so that they pumped for me. And you can do whatever you want with the levels.

[stoic linden]

we discussed about nerfing stats awhile ago tho

[stoic linden]

a refund?

[crisp lance]

Yeah, but all of these things should have been ironed out, before the decision to pivot to gauntlet was taken, not few weeks before it's rolled out

[craggy panther]

Step 1.
While the naive hamsters run around in the Overworld or even more naive ones spend money on workers, you relax.

Step 2.
When prices crash, you make a deck.

Step 3.
Under loud headlines, you remove levels.

Step 4.
Profit.

Even better, shout about the DAO and other fictional things.
I’m speaking the truth. And those who need to, understand this.

[stoic linden]

well gauntlet is not a good mode for ownership, ascendant was a more suitable mode but ascendant is not fun yet

[whole imp]

yes i spent 5k$ for up my iluvs and you can fill free with levels

[stoic linden]

how about the shards, weapons and suits

[whole imp]

i spent 3k on weapons and suits too

[golden kelp]

the fact that the game mode is literally unsustainable with the current system and the time and money put into it IS currently worthless, so with no changes it's gonna stay like that

[crisp lance]

Yeah so we decided to pivot into a mode, that's not good for our best assets by far, awesome

[craggy panther]

Are you joking? I'm offering you another option.
I'll devalue your investments. You've already done that, so you're not important.
And I'll support my own interests. Why should I have played in Overworld? I'd rather relax, drink a piña colada, and watch you.
Then, six months later, I'll start a discussion about how levels are bad.
Funny? Amusing? This is your reality. And that of many others.

[whole imp]

yes it joking but if decided to do it so pls i want refund it

and not 1-89 rate

[craggy panther]

You're acting like it's your first day in the project.

There’s a certain rule here.

It has been working for a long time. Since the testnet days.

Stick to it.

And if I ever forget, remind me.

#1356839348649328680 message

[median lynx]

Bad take imo. Now is the best time to change things if they need to be changed. It won't get easier if we wait.

[whole imp]

here only the fear of players that they will not play the game works, here mathematics, economics and common sense do not work 🤣

[rugged scaffold]

In my opinion, Leviathan should either reward massive time investment or allow players to shortcut that investment by purchasing high-level Illuvials from others.
Removing level importance takes away a key progression factor that gives value to long-term dedication. Plus, down the road, it will be super entertaining to watch high-end Leviathan battles where crazy stuff happens... maxed out Illuvials, insane strategies, and unpredictable outcomes that make it a spectacle.

For a pure competitive scene where no-one needs to spend time and money, we already have Ranked Gauntlet, where skill and ease of access is the main factor.
Leviathan, in contrast, should remain the mode where time, investment, and progression matter most.
And i'm not talking about just gauntlet here, but all games coming with a leviathan mode... for me Leviathan stands for emersion, dedication and crossgame integration.

Personally, I would rather add more time sinks to further strengthen Illuvials in Leviathan than remove any. For example, add a talent tree for each Illuvial, where you need to accomplish missions to build it out, or introduce a gene manipulation lab where players can improve the genetics of their Illuvial. To make this even deeper, you could require special consumables from raids to perform certain genetic enhancements. These mechanics would give players more long-term goals and add layers of depth to progression. A full collection of perfect stats and maxed out level/future-features should actually be impossible to achieve.

Additionally, having many time sinks is what drives the high marketplace value of top tier Illuvials. When someone lists a Titanor Level 140 with great stats, a fully built talent tree, and 30% mutated genes, it should feel like a premium asset... a reflection of serious dedication. If progression is removed or minimized, we lose the market depth that makes these high-end trades so exciting.

Another reason to keep grind in is to keep players engaged. The less grind you have the faster the studio has to pump out new content to keep people engaged.
I play video games on a regular basis since 30 years and what i saw very often in all kind of genres is people complaining about grind, basically wana reach endgame in a week, and at the same time the same people are complaining they are bored and waiting at the endgame for new content.

[whole imp]

amen

[craggy panther]

You're right. Absolutely. In everything.
But why should I care about that?
I want to drink piña coladas and watch you level up.
And then, I want to come back and laugh at you, the loud minority.
The key here is to stick to my interests, not yours.
You've already done the work on leveling, but I haven't.
Oh, and let's add, "It's not just me who wants this, everyone wants this!"
That would be more accurate.

[glad river]

I always thought this way, doesnt have anything to do with council

The free mode just serves as ez onboarding to try the game out but the end goal is to bring the most people possible to levithan, those people are TFT people

Without people in leviathan --> assets go down to 0 --> no one plays ow/adr --> lands produce worthless revenue and go down to 0 --> token price go to 0 --> ilv dies

Another decent example is TCG's. In hearthstone for example, most are fine with the fact that they are required to spend money on packs and build their collections and decks to compete, right? Imagine asking them to also grind hundreds of hours before they could compete now

My guess is under 1% would play

[median lynx]

Maybe a first step to find a consensus would be to agree on the target audience for leviathan.
In my opinion It's not hardcore grinders, it's whales. Which are two very different demographics.

[rugged scaffold]

it's definetly not the typical tft pro

it's both, grinders and whales.
people who like to emerse themself into a 2nd world

[whole imp]

you can spent 200$ for team and up to 50 lvl and play leavi why do y think you need to have full team with 200+ iluvs>?

[crisp lance]

Just provide ways for whales to get XP without the insane time commitment in that case. Problem solved

[craggy panther]

Then those who have good Illuvials but lack good levels will have to spend money.
Obviously.
Read between the lines.

[crisp lance]

Yeah just create an environment for everyone, XP is one of the easy problems to fix

[median lynx]

What about the other problem?

"The gameplay experience for leveling up is not fun, which is bad for onboarding. "

Another Core Question to clarify would be: Is onboarding and keeping them on board our top priority right now?

[craggy panther]

The current discussion is not created for debate. It's an illusion.

The current discussion is created to push personal interests.

And God forbid you start speaking the truth, loud minority.

[rugged scaffold]

if you feel a problem is "The gameplay experience for leveling up is not fun, which is bad for onboarding."
then this has to be questioned and tackled.

but not simply delete the whole system 😄

[golden kelp]

the whole idea of make players play all your games ecosystem sounds good in theory but is just flawed, all you're doing with this leveling system is drive away players who would potentially play leviathan but don't wanna play anything other than arena so they won't ever even try

[whole imp]

If we didn't have OW, lands , I would agree with you. A card game HT is ranked as a card game gauntlet, but we рфму вшаукуте mechanics lands, ow etc. we all understand perfectly why the game is dying, because everything that could be destroyed, they destroyed from faith to mechanics, and they think that the problem is in the grind, it's funny

[rugged scaffold]

that's fine, if you don't like the ecosystem but you love gauntlet, stay in gauntlet and have fune with it 🙂
Leviathan is about the whole ecosystem not just gauntlet

[median lynx]

Leviathan is about the whole ecosystem not just gauntlet

I think that Gauntlet Leviathan should just be about Gauntlet.

As an example you would not force League of Legends Moba players to play a lot of TFT games. Ever. No matter if LoL was Web3 or not. That is just a bad idea in any case in my opinion.

[craggy panther]

This discussion is driven by selfish goals.

The aim is to farm the maximum number of tokens from two modes.

There is no talk about believing in the project or its future.

The focus here is on grabbing as many tokens as possible from all corners. And then there are grand speeches about "everyone wants this," "DAO," "you loud minority."

I don't see any genuine interest in the long-term survival of the project. I see personal interests being prioritized.

[rugged scaffold]

nobody is forcing anyone to do anything.

[median lynx]

call it pushing then

[golden kelp]

for some reason everyone keeps not understanding that i'm not speaking for myself, i love what they're doing for a quick buck, i already leveled what i needed i'm gonna get some quick bucks out of the 20 playerbase total game mode and call it a day, but the game mode is dead

[rugged scaffold]

same thing

[craggy panther]

Throw it away, seriously.
It’s garbage now.
Yesterday, it was a decent average Illuvial.
Today, it’s trash.

It’s not profitable.
Then you’ll stop buying fuel.
Better to keep polite uncertainty.
Better to squeeze as much money out of you as possible.
And when they’ve drained you dry, that’s when they create discussions like this.

[crisp lance]

Paz, there had already been suggested ways how XP gain can be made more fun, either by increasing the leviathan XP, XP crates, battle pass rewards, you name it. All of the issues around it can be solved quite easily, I don't see whats the push around removing levels, rather than it being a lazy solution for a temporary short term fix

[whole imp]

if leviathan is supposed to start in a month and they still don't know what they will have and how it will work, then this is terrible management and a terrible team, I hope this is not about them.
but I agree with you, throwing it again either before or after launching something is in the style of Ilyuvium

[crisp lance]

Yeah I'm well aware of this "side effects"

[craggy panther]

I’m glad about this discussion.
Now, I’ll eat your bear.
It used to be a problem for me.
Now, I won’t pay any attention to it.
Throw it away. It’s trash.

[median lynx]

Yes there is definitely a bunch of ways how we can tackle all of this.
We would want to stay aligned with our core vision in here, about what are we fundamentally trying to achieve.

And we should keep an open mind that even if someone thinks they have the 100% perfect working solution, and 3-5 other people tell them they are right, there might be better options out there, or other options that the majority of the community which is not in here right now might feel strong about.

We have to remember that we have only 20 people in here currently.

[crisp lance]

No worries, take your time.

[craggy panther]

Yes, you're right. There are 20 of us. It's just the "loud minority."

[whole imp]

I don't understand the point of this topic at all, do you personally spend 3 days trying to pump up all your characters to 50 levels and play peacefully on levi? next 60 lvl will up slowly on arena - what is your concerns?

you want all 200+ ILUVS 60 lvl during 1 week? okay will add this function is ok i think, baybe some boost xp by fuel but any reduce lvl etc

I don't understand at all how we could call this a problem and start talking about it for hours

[craggy panther]

We had a great hardcore Leviathan mode. It was ruined by weakening the power of stats.

Now, we still have a chance for @rugged scaffold to beat the cash cow without grinding. But you are taking that opportunity away from him. Previously, Leviathan embraced the cash cows while leaving a chance for those who spend countless hours on Overworld.

You are taking that chance from them. But most importantly, you're helping lazy players by pursuing their selfish interests.

This is my truth.

[crisp lance]

If we get decent amount of experience from playing Leviathan, I don't see what's the big deal to be honest. Play to progress. Include a few other more expensive options for the impatient ones and we have a good progression system that can be improved upon over time

It can't be bottable since it requires paid assets so it's good on that front too

[craggy panther]

The problem is that this will lead to unwanted financial losses for those who bought Illuvials but don't want to spend more money/time on purchasing experience.

[median lynx]

Mate, to be completely honest with you, all I want here is to give the community a platform to voice their opinion and gather community feedback. I try to help people to bring their point across. If It helps the conversation I add my personal opinion as a community member and player, but I try to stay open to all sides and just hear everyone out and let them talk so that I can give an informed assessment to the IMC or Team if they ask me about what I think is the community sentiment around this topic to the best of my ability.

Just trying to do my Job, with the underlying motivation to find the best solutions for the long-term success of Illuvium.
Because after all is said and done, I am heavily invested in every single part of the ecosystem. All I want is for us to have the huge player base and success this Project deserves, and then every asset of Illuvium will go up naturally. I try to focus on what I think is best for the dao, no matter the impact my wallet will take from specific changes.

I agree that hours of the same 5 people throwing their same 5 opinions around is not very productive, that's why I want to remind everyone that we are only 20 people in here and this thread is 8 hours old. Some people have been asleep since the first post. 😅

[whole imp]

1. Add a function like scanning with autodromes, only for pumping levels
2. Add scrolls for two hours, which will increase the experience boost by 2 hours in OW for those who like to grind in OW
3. Don't use anything play as usual
Naturally, everything is for fuel
❌ Training halls are a good idea, but no one is doing them, and no one will. this has already been said many times
✅ It is better not to call grinding a problem, you also need to grind the arena at least 15 times a week
✅ Leave everything else as is with the levels
If there are no concerns, we can close this topic, which causes a lot of questions, irritation and contradictions and create a new one, what I wrote above

Ordinary players are happy, whales are happy, I think we can stop going on.

I will use 1st solution for me

[craggy panther]

Personally, I wouldn't use anything.
Because I'm not rich.

I would pay with my time, spending entire days in Overworld.
The old-fashioned way.

If I were richer, I would choose your option with XP scrolls.

[whole imp]

thx for your efforts and sorry my aggressive behavior a little bit, cuz when we are waiting levi mode and see topic with remove something it's too much irritate

[whole imp]

yeap you can use as usual

[whole imp]

i add this 3d option

[crisp lance]

We have an extremely under utilized web3 economy. We should have a ton of such consumable items, either through PvE, PvP content or battle passes. XP scrolls, crates, etc. Everything tradable, free market. If we do our eco properly we won't ever have to worry about revenue or using the ilv token as rewards... There are better ways.

[sacred lichen]

imo this thread should be closed. The team came up with a level system, the community has put in time and money to acquire those levels. The team now has to deliver on this system. Nobody in here is looking to inflict more pain and everybody is tired of waiting. We're approaching our 1 year of waiting anniversary and can do a feedback round once something is live

[craggy panther]

https://tenor.com/view/bryan-cranston-drop-the-mic-mic-drop-gif-12078516

[terse spindle]

As long as level alone doesn't make a giant difference in Leviathan I think it adds to the gamemode as a whole. Also as a new player.

If I am starting out and making a collection for Leviathan mode, I can Improve my chances to win, by:

• Improving my understanding of the game, and become better at the game.
• Getting Illuvials with better overall stats.
• Leveling up my Illuvials to level 60.

T3 starts at level 40, (and if we were to get a system to burn one illuvial to get it to level 40, that would be fairly simple to do for other Tiers).

So we are talking about improving the collection by improving the levels from 40 to 60 for a number of Illivials. (does not have to be all of them). the difference between a level 40 and 60 would not have to be that big in actual “power level” but just enough to incentivize people to optimize the collection….

To gain those levels from 40 to 60, you can get it by playing Arena games, and get XP that can be boosted by a battle pass, which you would probably have anyway if you are playing Leviathan. Assuming you acquired Illuvials to play Leviathan you would also want to play many games to become better at it… and at the same time you would gain XP for your Illuvials.

You could also get it by exploring the other games, and get XP from “training gym” or playing in OW. but you don't have to do that, you would simply improve a little bit by every game you play. Which I actually think would be a cool thing to have.

I know this requires other features to be implemented, but looking at it from keeping people engaged I don't think it's a bad idea to keep XP/levels in connection to Leviathan.

[hexed marlin]

Yeah there's plenty of ways to "work around" the system

Doesn't mean it's a fun system

[stoic linden]

haha yea thats what i suspected, people who didnt put time grinding OW wants level gone

[hexed marlin]

Maybe remove XP gain from OW?

Doesn't make it more fun, but reduces some of the onboarding hurdles I suppose

[whole imp]

if i have team why reason play ow?) i play now to up levels

[hexed marlin]

Even after the fuel revamp? Interesting

[whole imp]

yes now

[hexed marlin]

https://tenor.com/view/chad-gif-25592079

[golden kelp]

overworld having leveling isn't a problem imo, for mmo that could be good, it's just arena having it, not even for the old arena leveling wouldn't be a problem, but arena is fundemantally unplayable without most of the roster

[whole imp]

i think main goal to inrease econimic with levels too but yoi want remove this option ist strange

[sacred lichen]

Maybe delete zero, overworld and levels from arena. On top of that spin stats from each illuvial daily. We're getting somewhere!

[whole imp]

you need around 100$ to up a hole team(20 ilubs) for 50 lvl its not big money and not grind diffrernt between 50 -60 isn't big why this is prob;em i don't know

[hexed marlin]

Maybe release a $1M cosmetic?

[whole imp]

i think good stats + 50 lvl + right hands and everybody can play levi

[eager harness]

Here's a crazy idea. How about making the game better and more fun so the grind doesn't feel like a chore?

[whole imp]

grind for 60 lvl its your decision but don't have big impcat on game

[hexed marlin]

Good thing we're making a game revamp then

[whole imp]

pls after a few season in levi) i wait it a few year)

[hexed marlin]

Alright we'll wait 6 years for 69 leviathan seasons

[eager harness]

In fact what we need is an actual game and not a 'glorified pack opening'.

[rugged scaffold]

lets try to stay on topic

[whole imp]

Sorry, I don't understand the sarcasm, did I say something wrong? So i am sorry

[eager harness]

how is this not the topic?

all games require some degree of grinding. I don't get how we're even discussing to remove this.

[craggy panther]

https://tenor.com/view/exactly-gif-3397598315635453816

[sacred lichen]

Smells like some people are not leviathan ready and are trying to delay our glorious pay2win leviathan tournament. Get lost you free2play noobs!

[whole imp]

they thought they would always have time to level up)

[stoic linden]

maybe some people who are planning to live off arena reward but cant spend more

[hexed marlin]

The grind must continue. The grind must continue. The grind must continue. The grind must continue

[eager harness]

what we should be discussing is how to make it fun.

[whole imp]

I like your direction

[stoic linden]

ive been grinding genshin and it is fun because im grinding a claymore wielding maid

[eager harness]

https://tenor.com/view/the-simpsons-bart-simpson-all-work-no-play-dull-boy-gif-16942409

[sacred lichen]

Ive been grinding kfc nightshifts because I need to dca in illuvium

[stoic linden]

🫡

[whole imp]

maybe find job before playing game? its better i think)

[stoic linden]

for some ILV is their main job

[craggy panther]

If they were too lazy to level up in Overworld while a run in Stage 3 cost almost nothing, they are not the most diligent workers.

[whole imp]

they have a good optiop play for gauntlet i think, 0 money, a lot ilv if thay will good player i wil hire him

[stoic linden]

yea im wondering if scholarship is possible

[whole imp]

we don't have delegation assets(

[hexed marlin]

Release special NFT collection limited at 69 items called "grindstones", buffing XP gain by 10% per tier, fuse 3 to go up a tier

Every IZ plot gets a 54-step attunement chart resulting in a "space hook" building which catches a meteor in space which after mining has a 5% chance of giving a grindstone

sounds pretty cool ngl

[proper harbor]

I'm upvoting it because I agree with the problem and with all of the solutions except removing levels

[eager harness]

it does sound cool. But I would simply make the illuvial combat actually engaging and adjustable according to the ranger level. That would go a long way.

[hexed marlin]

This is what we're doing, just won't be here for a little bit

[stoic linden]

imagine discord rank prodive XP buff

[whole imp]

every land increse exp too)

[stoic linden]

Im ranked 5 i should be an Over-Lord Jaganite

[eager harness]

well sure, but hopefully this should be one of the main focus. Combat needs to be topnotch for the game to succeed.

[hexed marlin]

Yep most important thing probably

[stoic linden]

you have land too?

[whole imp]

15 t4)

[stoic linden]

wow ser
get this man his level lol

[whole imp]

my the most stupid purchases in game) this game) other game land works)

[bronze cave]

Why do people pay the price of a house for earning absolutely nothing in many other games? If the game is fun and competitive, people will find a reason to spend their money.

[proper harbor]

Imagine being a new player in ranked mode and at the end of each round or at the end of the game you see that you get more XP

"Wow my units got stronger after this?" is the kind of reaction I would expect, there's something addictive to it, I feel progress even if I suck at the game

Then the player will see that they have earned XP on their units with 0/30 genetic and will prefer to farm XP on something more valuable instead of wasting their hard earned XP on worthless genetic illuvials, if they don't they will end up with lvl 60 bad illuvials and maybe they will try leviathan after that because they want to reap the fruit of their grind (even if they played for fun more than for XP)

• So if we earn XP in arena then it can have positive value for people who only play arena

• Besides that it gives a reason to burn illuvials which increases scarcity and is good for the economy, I disagree with @median lynx's take saying that it would remove all weak illuvials since weak illuvials are so common that it will never be the case imo

• It gives more value to Overworld and I don't mind if you make XP 2 times easier to grind

• It incentivizes whales to spend more money by making them buy XP directly

• It gives more value to lands with XP buildings

• It gives more value to battle pass

To me it sounds fun and it makes a lot of sense

[hexed marlin]

New players won't gain XP because they don't own anything

On a different but related topic, there should be some Leviathan bonus for just ownership even if the stats are crap. 10% for the 0-trait illuvial and then another 5% per trait, something amongst those lines.

[golden kelp]

"easily" (in my non game dev brain) solvable by making the xp received an item that you can consume on whatever you want

[hexed marlin]

Bring back plantz to IZ and let them be minted as XP consumables

[stoic linden]

universal xp consumables or illuvial-spesific xp consumables?

[golden kelp]

would be stupid to complicate it into illuvial specific

[proper harbor]

I forgot to add that my answer assumes a system where every new player gets 0/30 genetic illuvials or there would be non NFT illuvials
If burning illuvials gives XP then these illuvials should not give XP of course unless they hold XP themselves

[craggy panther]

Sorry, I didn't understand what you meant about the ownership bonus. Can you clarify?

[hexed marlin]

In a Leviathan Arena perspective, a 0-trait illuvial is literally worth nothing, you might as well not own it. I don't think that's a good thing. Ownership should be rewarded as well, but inferior to good stats. Level does solve this for S2/S3 but not for S1 and I don't think we should force players into levelling if they don't want to. Therefore small bonus for ownership, traits add on top

[proper harbor]

I think that it's not a problem considering that 0/30 stats illuvials are even more rare than 30/30 stats since nobody wants to catch them

[craggy panther]

Is my understanding correct?

1️⃣ There's no need to level up;

2️⃣ Now, there won't be such a significant difference between an ideal illuvial and a missing (standard) one?

I'm confused. I need more specifics.

[hexed marlin]

chicken and egg

[proper harbor]

It's not just a matter of undesirability, they are really exceptionally rare which makes this buff only relevant for less than 0.001% of the entire supply

[hexed marlin]

1 ) what?

2 ) my proposal is to keep the relative difference the same and raise them both

[golden kelp]

Imo it should tie the reward to earning, i don't think top heavy finish prizepool for top 3 is enough for a game mode like this, people ideally should be able to earn by playing/placing high in specific matches, the way axie/parallel do

[craggy panther]

I won't hesitate to ask for clarification to understand the situation better.

I didn't quite understand the phrase "I don't think we should force players to level up if they don't want to." Perhaps the online translator misrepresented the meaning of your words.

Could you please answer simply, without sarcasm, what is the team's position on levels in Leviathan? We are investing our money into this. We need to understand what we're investing in. I’m tired of the uncertainty.

[proper harbor]

So have you considered adding non NFT illuvials that new arena players will be able to level up or adding 0/30 stats NFT to every new arena player? @hexed marlin

[glad river]

Perry only suggested a bonus for simply owning an illuvial

For example it could be 10% bonus for owning, 25% level and 25% stats

This way people could be incentivized to own illuvials, even with terrible stats, as that would be quite better than not owning it

[craggy panther]

Thank you for the clarification.

[whole imp]

so 10+25% or 25% with these 10?

[oblique sierra]

i see much of arguments - that grinding exp must be liked for most players, and not being so boring.
but it's noone game, where people love get exp:

1. Linage 2 - you need tonn of exp, but it's boring farm
2. Wow - you have grind exp every expansion by quests/dungeons - still boring and you skip most of reading quests.
3. Poe - still boring farm untill end game
   i can give other examples.
   but people farm exp, grinding best gear, spend hour to development of bosses.
   that's end game content, and people prepare themself to be better that other.
   if exp will be removed - what i have to do to prepare? just buy some NFT, or made collection?
   it's no tests of expirience or time. just test of money

[eager harness]

what about the collection page idea and illuvial finishes?

[glad river]

Could be any, he didnt specify. Just a suggestion that there could be a % bonus just for owning

[glad river]

I dont think we can compare to those non competitive games

Ill take hearthstone example because you played that. Do you think hearthstone would work if instead of buying cards you would need to buy cards + grind hundreds of hours?

[blazing prairie]

Please listen to @rugged scaffold

@hexed marlin I wanted to answer your question on why I did the "boring grind" of OW.
I liked doing it.
Was it perfect? No. It needed lore.
I liked the pay off for leveling. I liked the feeling of completion for having a level 60 and being able to to do level 40s for fusing. I did more level 40s than 60s because I was into making skins. Did it drag sometimes? Sure, but forcing myself through a slow grind knowing that the pay off for a level 60 high stat Illuvial would be good made it worth it.

The whole purpose of having different games is to attract different types of gamers. I'm concerned that we are moving away from that direction and going into "let's make our TM for all games the gamer that plays Arena". I think it is a mistake. I think the better way of doing it is to modify the grind to make it more interesting for the TM that already doesn't mind doing a grind for the result of having a slow payoff.

(Full Disclosure: I only have 3 Level 60 Illuvials. One perfect stat Phyriox who I was planning on renting out for Leviathan competitions. A Rhamphyre who doesn't have great stats but I wanted a Rhamphyre at level 60. Steve who is never being sold or rented out and it was a labour of love. I have 3 more that were close before shut down. Two that would be rented out and 1 that is like Steve. I was working on a couple other full stat ones to rent out as well but they are still early 50s. I don't need the money from renting or selling these Illuvials. This isn't about my bags. It is about what I personally find fun about the game and how Illuvium can make money.)

[oblique sierra]

it's depend what you get after grinding exp.
you say it's not competitive - but it's depend of endgame.
people farm gear in WOW, to be best, to prepare better for new raid, and become 1st who beat all bosses.
people farm M+ keys, to get higher and higher, so later they can win in tournament.

if i know that i farm exp in HS, and it's give power for my deck - yes, i'l farm it to get stronger.

[rugged scaffold]

i share your thoughts.
It feels like it all started with a big vision, of interconnected games, where every gamer find it's place and can try out new or old games in that ecosystem with his collection he increases over time.
Basically one big MMO persisting out of multiple different games each being fun for itself
And then gauntlet came into play and it feels like the whole system gets altered to fit not only gauntlet, but mostly just the pro scene of gauntlet in hope that we can convert tft player into paying customers.

[proper harbor]

Current system < Removing levels < Implementing all of the solutions you've mentioned apart from removing levels

The best long term approach is the latter imo, removing levels is a short term approach compared to that

[craggy panther]

Sometimes, it's better to just leave things alone and not mess with them. Fixing augmentations, synergies, bugs, crashes, and graphics—these are the things that can and should be worked on. But forcing in things that make people furious is the most foolish thing a developer can do.

[proper harbor]

After reading the entire discussion I changed my mind

What is best short term?

Removing levels because the current system isn't attractive to new players

What is best long term?

• XP bonus in the battle pass
• XP building in ILVZ (and maybe give them 5% of all the XP purchase revenues)
• XP directly purchasable so that you can instantly get your illuvial lvl 60 if you spend something like $50
• XP in arena (and give every new players non-NFT illuvials or an entire 0/30 genetic collection that they can lvl up)
• XP from burning illuvials (and I like @terse spindle's take about capping the amount of burning XP you can give to an illuvial to avoid economic issue if that's a legitimate concern)

All of these would have POSITIVE VALUE for both the arena and the entire Illuvium ecosystem

Problem

In the current system XP has NEGATIVE VALUE for Illuvium and we can't implement these XP features quickly

Solution

We remove levels in Leviathan for the time being and add them back later once new XP features are implemented

Caveat

If we don't really want to attract a lot of new players right now it makes less sense to remove levels, after all the marketing campaign hasn't even started yet

[terse spindle]

Not against removing levels short term, if that really can attract new players, but I doubt that it would actually make that much difference right now. what is important is getting a clear vision on the Long term plan. while added features gets build.

XP bonus in the battle pass ✅

XP building in ILVZ (and maybe give them 5% of all the XP purchase revenues)....
would rather just try to create a "player driven economy" for this, instead of thinking of a compensation. So you could pay me some fuel, to send some of your Illuvials to train in my ILZ gym. (but that probably requires a bit more work to build)

*XP directly purchasable so that you can instantly get your illuvial lvl 60 if you spend something like $50... *
I think its better to let people buy those lvl 60 from the marketplace in my opinion. (we need to get some player driven economy going) ... but buying "XP boxes" could also work. (and you could also add those as prices in arena, or loot in new OW).

*XP in arena (and give every new players non-NFT illuvials or an entire 0/30 genetic collection that they can lvl up) *
Interesting Idea, need a think a bit more about that one, and how exactly the "experience" for a new player could look like 🤔

XP from burning illuvials ✅

I also think having XP/level in Leviathan is a positive long term.

[proper harbor]

I shared the reaction that I expect from new players there

#1356839348649328680 message

[craggy panther]

Your two posts convey different meanings.
I supported the original idea.
But I’m against the updated one, where you talk about temporarily disabling levels.

[proper harbor]

Even if they add these XP features in 4 months?

How much time would it require? @hexed marlin

[craggy panther]

I'm against disabling levels even for a second.
We've had many months to prepare our decks.
If someone didn’t bother to spend enough time or money leveling up their deck, they will lose more often.
That's how it should be.

[proper harbor]

If removing levels has positive value on the short term let's do it, some people will suffer from it and my 20+ lvl 60 illuvials will be sad but I'm fine with that if that's the best long term decision and if levels become relevant once again in the future

I'm one of you guys
I grinded ad nauseum

[craggy panther]

Bro, this would only benefit you.
You have a leveled-up Rogue deck, but the rest aren’t. You know very well that you need time to level up the other decks.

We had time.
We had plenty of time.
For months, we could play Overworld almost for free.

Those who didn’t have time could hire staff—like @whole imp did.

I’m completely against any discussions about disabling levels.

[craggy panther]

Bro, you have a lot of duplicates. If I stack up a bunch of weak level 60 Illuvials, that could also create an illusion for a newbie.

[proper harbor]

I don't have any duplicate lvl 60 and I have holes outside of my rogue collection, even with genetic only

You're saying that I'm biased for removing levels but I can just spam rogues over and over again, with my current skill and levels + genetic I would have a bigger edge over the competition than if we remove levels

The only case where removing levels would benefit me is against people like whity who will play with basically only lvl 60 but they are rare so removing levels isn't clearly beneficial to me

You could say that it's not clearly detrimental to me either but out of these 26 lvl 60 I've grinded 24 myself and it was extremely boring, I don't like seeing my work being rendered worthless

[oblique sierra]

remove lvl right now and get other ranked game.

[craggy panther]

Yeah, yeah, my mistake. I confused you with another player. My apologies regarding the duplicates.

As for our discussion, I have nothing more to add.

We were given plenty of time.

Those who worked poorly eat little.
Those who didn’t grind hard enough in Overworld or don’t have a deep wallet will lose more often.

If a whale like Whity crushes me, I won’t cry.
That’s what hardcore mode is.

[craggy panther]

I want to keep Leviathan as it is.

Yes, it was already ruined when they nerfed the stats.

But don’t ruin it further.

Bad stats? Lower chance of winning.
Bad level? Lower chance of winning.
Bad skill? Lower chance of winning.

Feeling teary-eyed and want to cry? The "Ranked" button is right next to the Leviathan button.

[craggy panther]

If you or @rugged scaffold kick my ass, I won’t start a thread claiming something is wrong.

I’d rather look for the problem in myself.

[median lynx]

I agree with this. We should focus on the approach that gives us the best chances of onboarding and attracting players to leviathan.

Otherwise we have a high risk of a too small playerbase, and the gamemode will fail. Which will make all of these precious lvl 60 illuvials worthless anyway.

[whole imp]

Bro, risk only one 200 ilv for levi, it should be 1000 + more rewards places. If rewards are enough, you start up Iluvis too, but with low rewards, we have created a topic about levels and finding solutions. There is only one true - bees fly to honey.

Why should I spend $1000 to get $20 when I create 5 accounts and earn $200 in gaunlet)

[median lynx]

the risk is a complete failure of the gamemode after a downward spiral of less and less players

since it's extremely bad for onboarding, not even a whale can just join and compete tomorrow

[whole imp]

Well, there must be motivation to play)

[whole imp]

The whale will find a solution if he can get a benefit in the future. One whale will make 50 players run and look for iluvials for him, and another 20 will pump iluvials for him for 2 weeks
but 🙂 I am not against the tool with fast-up level by fuel. Its should be in-game 100%

Fast = pay more
Slowly = pay less

[craggy panther]

What’s more likely to kill the mode is if it keeps getting simplified more and more.

The beauty of this mode is in its hardcore nature.

Catering to lazy players means disappointing the true fans.

[onyx rock]

Why do you ask the opinion of a tiny bunch of players? Just make whatever is most attractive to the masses

[golden kelp]

leviathan doesn't exist in that world tho

[mossy swift]

Dont touch the level.
Give more XP to lvl up and more cash to gauntlet and players will come.

[pure tundra]

Remove levels !🙏

[onyx rock]

give the ranger lvls like str, def, crit etc, that would give a cool twist to how one approaches overworld and arena

grind and sense of progress. remove illuvial lvl

[violet stone]

Remove levels and enable them with the MMO lite, it should be more fun to level up illuvials in that mode

[clear flame]

Still waiting on gyms for Zero

https://discord.com/channels/760344898200666112/1267946993477746822

[whole imp]

I think before write about levels need to send screen with your iluvs level. Than we will understand everything about this person. I see a lot if ppl who didn't up levels and now try to vote about removing or decreasing. Its so stupid and funny. Go to work lazy players

[median lynx]

You do realise the exact same can be said about people that did level up and vote for levels to hold on to the value they grinded for.

Though we have seen some individuals in this thread with rather unbiased opinions that have leveled all their illuvials and still want to remove levels to make the game better.

I have not seen someone do the opposite and argue for levels without having grinded for them.

[whole imp]

I understand what you are talking about, but such topics are not created by people who have pumped up levels and are proposing to remove them, but by those who have not submitted anything and are proposing to remove them. This is the essence of the problem. I used to pump up levels and with the current gas, I continue to pump up, and I don't see any problems with this.

[craggy panther]

We’ve already received several official confirmations that levels will provide a significant advantage from the very first days of the Leviathan season. This has been mentioned both in the team’s Discord and on the official website.

That’s why I trust the team and continue investing large amounts of money (at least for me) into leveling up.

I’m confident they’ll keep their word.

Here’s a tip for those who want to win a bit more often in Leviathan:

Take the hours you’ve spent trying to bend the game to your will—and go spend that time in the Overworld instead. Get your core Illuvials to at least level 30–40.

That’ll be way more productive.
It’ll give you a few extra percent in power—and a lot more respect from other players.

Right now, the situation looks something like this:

A small rural town announces that in a year and a half, they’ll host a McLaren race. Everyone laughs it off. But some people believed—and spent a whole year grinding to buy a McLaren. Some parts they bought, others they welded together themselves.

Time passes. The race is now about 3 weeks away. Everyone realizes it’s not a joke anymore. But many also realize—they haven’t prepped their McLaren. They're still prepping a Skoda Octavia.

And now they’re loudly insisting: “Let’s run this McLaren race… while driving our Skoda Octavias! Otherwise, it’s not fair!”

It’s a shame that instead of getting themselves a McLaren for the race, people are trying to make everyone switch to a Skoda.

Otherwise, it feels “unfair” to them.

Just like in Krylov’s fable:
“The carefree grasshopper sang all summer long—
but didn’t notice how fast winter came along.”

[glad raven]

It feels absurd to me when people who didn’t level up their Illuvials while fuel was free and there was plenty of time as if they just laid back for those two months (despite leveled Illuvials being very cheap on the market) now feel entitled to comment on the matter.

The fact that just 5–6 players didn’t care about levels, didn’t invest, or didn’t spend time on them doesn’t really create a healthy environment for discussion.

When trying to carry a game into the future, scrapping a system that has been established for months and saying, “let’s just forget about levels now and find something else fun”, means:

Throwing away my 4000 hours spent in the overworld and over $50,000 spent by more than 10 players I know. You, or anyone from the team, simply cannot get these people to accept that. The few remaining supporters of the game would leave too. So if possible, let’s stop having these ridiculous debates and focus on the MMO instead. Thanks

[golden kelp]

I spent 12 hours a day for 3 months leveling illuvials, i benefit directly if they literally just make the game mode inacessible in the short term, except what am i gonna do when i have to wait an hour in queue for a game because the game mode has double digit total players because this is basically the grindiest game as prerequisite i've seen in the last 10 years

the cognitive dissonance between the idea of leviathan being the game mode for whales and the way it's actually set up now is crazy:

1. Time - when have you seen a whale grind? the whole point of whaling is paying to play at max power instantly.
2. Money / Prizing - why does the whale even care about prizepool, he's already rich.

[craggy panther]

@whole imp Hello, rich whale.

I'm curious to hear your opinion on this.

I'm not a wealthy person — I just believe in the developers' words, so instead of complaining, I work hard to reach my goals.

But you’re clearly wealthier. What do you think about all this?

[glad raven]

Do you really think the rewards given in the Beyond leaderboard are that significant for a whale? In my opinion, there are players in the top 10 who have spent quite a lot of money there too, but in return, they get back only a small percentage of it.

The real issue here is passion, the need for success, and maybe a bit of ego satisfaction.
Most professional players want to be recognized in areas where they feel successful sometimes by investing money, sometimes through their skill. The actual prize they receive often isn’t that important to them.

Also, I don’t think it’s entirely fair to have this conversation while ILV is priced low.
If ILV rises above $60 again in 3 months, I believe we’ll all agree that the current rewards really aren’t that bad

[golden kelp]

you don't have to play beyond, you don't have queues, that's a collection game, that's the biggest difference, and if ILV rises to 60$ in 3 months why the hell would you not just sell everything you have and buy it now instead of playing, on the same logic it can go to 5$ and what will you say about your thousands of hours spent then,

you're straight up increasing illuvial demand as soon as their levels don't matter for arena, i have no idea how you can have any other argument to this besides sunk cost fallacy.

[whole imp]

I play every day after work because the game has a +25% stat boost for levels. The team now takes good money for leveling up, but I understand that this is late content and I am moving in this direction. I practically don't know how to play, I level up - and when the Levi mod is launched I will learn to play. For many who are writing now, there was plenty of time to level up everyone, catch, buy, but they did not do this. In any normal game there is late content and the faster the player gets to it, the faster he will lose interest in the game. Sometimes, in order to get there without money, it takes years for late content and a lot of time. With donations it is easier and the game grows on this

[glad raven]

No, dude, what I’m trying to say is that it’s not healthy to be discussing this while the price is low. If these tournaments had started 3 months ago, given the price situation at that time, we probably would have found many more participants. I hope I’ve managed to convey what I mean..

I’m still spending money even though the price is very low 😂 There’s no negative situation for me

[golden kelp]

How much did your team cost you, would you pay for it again and put the hours to level for 8 ILV a week?

also to clarify if they straight up sold xp/levels there wouldn't be a problem

[craggy panther]

Bro, this is exactly where we pinpoint the real issue.
And here, I completely agree with you.

It would be a great move from the developers to add a way to purchase experience in some form.
That’s exactly what I was writing about here: #1358069125364056174 message

The problem isn't that Illuvials have levels —
The inconvenience lies in the way those levels are gained.

So for now, we just have to work with what we’ve got:
either spend our own time leveling,
or spend our money on helpers who can do the leveling for us.

If the devs introduced a level-purchasing feature (the thing you’re talking about), I’d honestly be happy — as long as it’s expensive enough not to devalue the time and money other players already spent on fuel.

If the price was reasonable, I doubt Axeless would be paying employees to do leveling.
Right-clicking a few times to get 60 levels? Way more convenient.

[clear flame]

Burn illuvials for xp
Initially it will buff a bunch of illuvials but once a threshold is met there will be a nice balance.

You see the same effect with fuel crates… there was a pretty large supply.. but with adr and game picking up those have risen in value and lessened in supply. Same will happen with burning illuvials for xp. Initially cheap cuz of big supply…. But people will want to level illuvuals and therefore the floor will rise on illuvuals and supply decrease all to support game loop. No brainer.

[craggy panther]

But then the team won't make money.
Only a few speculators will profit.

The team will earn much more if they sell experience directly.

[clear flame]

Boring… and debatable

people will continue to do adr and ow runs even more knowing they can have purpose for trash illuvials.

So u get your dao revenue bumped that way rather than straight selling xp.

[golden kelp]

the team is never making money off leviathan, this is just a loss leader funnel into mmo at best

[craggy panther]

Maybe it’s something to consider.

Here’s the hidden problem: The point of this thread isn't about the convenience of gaining experience. That's just empty words to distract from the real issue.

The real issue here is that some people don’t want to: spend enough money/time.

If you burn terrible Illuvials at level 60 and, in return, strengthen your Illuvial to level 60, their number on the market will instantly decrease.

And prices will skyrocket. And we’ll be back to square one — people will have to spend large amounts of money on leveling again. And many don’t want that.

As much as it may sound, this thread isn’t just about Illuvial experience — it’s about the team’s attitude towards their own words. It’s a matter of trust.

That means: if the developers repeatedly said that levels matter in Leviathan, if they’ve written about it in Discord, on the official site, and elsewhere, they should have one single solution to this dispute: stick to their position.

Otherwise (as has been discussed many times), it will undermine the trust of the whales.

If the developers said that levels are important in Leviathan, their words should be an unbreakable doctrine.

And as for those who didn’t level up or spend money on leveling: work on it, don’t just complain.

[golden kelp]

The team should absolutely never put a promise made to 10-20 people above new players experience, you're already here, they're not

[clear flame]

Again… still waiting on training gyms for zero. Problem solved.

[craggy panther]

The team should absolutely not pander to the lazy by sacrificing the interests of those who have spent their money and time.

[golden kelp]

the lazy is who actually plays games, don't cater to them you have no playerbase

[craggy panther]

Yes, training gyms are also a great option.
Those who pay for land get experience.

Those who don’t spend money don’t get experience.

[clear flame]

It can create a more player driven experience. I have land… u have illuvials. U can put you illivials in my gyms… we make a deal. Doesnt have to be black or white…. Maybe u trade me a such and such illuvial or illuvitar or whatever for gym time yk.

[median crater]

Yeah but it doesn't solve the deflation problem. Maybe here are different topics.

[glad raven]

even the idea is great, but... 🤦‍♂️

[craggy panther]

Yes, you’re right. This is more about lazy players realizing things too late and now being worried that they’ll start losing in Leviathan.

And they’re masking their true intentions behind loud and morally acceptable (but false) goals.

[clear flame]

Fact: grinding ow for xp is boring

[glad raven]

btw I don't get bored, I guess I'm one of the 2 or 3 players in this regard, but I can't criticize those who get bored 🙂

[median crater]

Burning and training gym would increase the value of illuvials and zero lands , at least a bit.

[clear flame]

Must be nice 😄

[craggy panther]

Give your Illuvials to people who actually enjoy leveling them.

Ask the devs to create other leveling methods — Battle Pass, direct XP purchase, training gyms in Zero.

There are plenty of options. Pick what suits you best.

But please, rule out the one option that says:
“I’m too lazy to level, I don’t want to spend money, so it’s unfair — remove levels.”

[clear flame]

Yah that’s a non starter… just whining

[craggy panther]

https://tenor.com/view/exactly-gif-3397598315635453816

[stoic linden]

lol u made my day

[golden kelp]

gonna be really awkward when it turns out he should've been playing arena

[craggy panther]

When I start losing in Leviathan because I play poorly, I won’t cry about it.

I’m sure you’ll outplay me.

[pure tundra]

The levels of the illuvials for it to be viable must be blocked at level 40 max for leviathan mode

[blazing prairie]

I had over a million fuel stored up so I could level up Illuvials and fuse others for skins. That was switched to just over 15,000 fuel. I was still planning on levelling my top Illuvials with it, buying more as well as fuel crates so I could level and fuse.
Fusing is now too expensive to use for Illuvials for skins so that is out. With all this talk about dropping levels why should I buy fuel?

I don't like gambling. If I want a high stat Rhamphyre I will take the ETH and buy it not try to get one in OW.

[craggy panther]

Hi. An interesting timeline is emerging where the developers stop getting your money.

The timeline: "I was planning to level up my Illuvials" → "discussion about lowering levels appears" → "the desire to spend money disappears."

I want stability. The developers have firmly and clearly stated that levels matter.
I hope this kind of discussion remains just a discussion and nothing more.

[craggy panther]

Your snake should keep instilling fear in me because of its level and stats —
not just because of its stats.

[blazing prairie]

Awww...you took a picture of Phylhiss while we were playing.❤️ 🐍

I agree, I want stability too. I don't like wasting time and/or money.

[violet stone]

Removing levels and bringing them back when the MMO Lite releases is the way to go, in my opinion.

You don’t want players that would want to level up their illuvials have a bad experience with the current boring overworld, especially if they have to pay a significant amount of money for it. They are just going to quit.

[glad river]

Even when the MMO lite is there, 99.99% of people wont play an autobattler that you need to grind another game before being able to compete

If we get relevant xp in arena + other things like training gyms, buyable xp, include xp in battle pass etc, then its much better but still cuts out a high % of people that would make the jump and invest/play leviathan

I personally think theres no way leviathan works with levels and would prefer to see them scraped off completely for arena

PS: i spent lots of time and money on lvls, im arguing against my own interest here as i believe its whats best for the project

[golden kelp]

Yea it's just in theory a complete turnoff for so many people who might otherwise have played it, even i'm straight up split on not playing if there's levels to buying more stuff if it's just plug and play

[rugged scaffold]

i guess that very much depends on how you look at leviathan.

It seems most people look at it as a single standalone game since gauntlet is the first of it's kind.
If you look at it from that perspective leviathan won't make it anyways.
People who enjoy autobattler are used to play for free and to play competitive on an even playground.

If you look at leviathan from another perspective, as being a compound of games you can play with your collection, it does in my opinion make sense to implement all the stuff you also have in a typical MMO

[whole imp]

and back stats 100%)

[golden kelp]

in a typical mmo you're not this constrained by matchamking, this is my biggest problem by far with levels currently, you're just gonna have dead queues, and in mmos you pay2skip grinding, that's also a big different factor

[glad river]

Leviathan was always meant as THE arena mode

It will be our only demand side of the whole ilv ecosystem once it starts

We cant make this a little side try hard game, illuvium wont have any revenue and even those who enjoy levels wont have any game to play

[rugged scaffold]

i wouldn't say you can call it a typical mmo
and yeas, qeue time obviously depends on playerbase

[whole imp]

What should the project earn on in order to exist while giving away the treasure? On skins?

[golden kelp]

oh you're never making leviathan autobattler turn a profit, the commitment to play it is so high that the only way you can get players is by paying them

[rugged scaffold]

Leviathan was meant as the mode in all games where you play with your collection.

[oblique sierra]

just let burn illuvials for exp. burn 1000 atlas to get 1 into lvl60. and everything start work. demand, people with big and fast lvl. people start do runs in OW etc

[rugged scaffold]

When talking about shaping leviathan, meaning what matters and what not, one should should ask himself who is actually going to play leviathan. (what is the targeted audience)
is it the:
Esport pros?
Autobattler audience?
MMO-lovers?
Collectors?
others?

I guess it will be mainly collectors and an intersection of many genres who also like to collect and this will be true for most leviathan modes in future, but i kinda doubt it will be esport pros or TFT-pros or the whole autobattler audience.
With trying to shape leviathan for those pro audiences, you are mainly just eliminating the fun for whales so they won't come and you will end up with a 2nd ladder for those pro's in each genre.

Eliminate lvls, nerf stats again and you likely end up with 2 identical leaderboards for gauntlet

[golden kelp]

Actually there's 2 ways to this, if you do the burn one you give more money to playerbase, if you do it with use fuels for levels or something like that you give more money to illuvium itself

[golden kelp]

it's 90% money farmers, the amount of people who willingly want to be at a disadvantage or go through insane grind is not enough to sustain a playerbase, straight up proven by there being 0 levi games played per day

[rugged scaffold]

i feel you are looking at it too much from a web3 pov where it's all about rewards and airdrop farming

[golden kelp]

well yea cuz in web2 this would never exist in such a way, the closest thing you have is pokemon which can be straight up plug and play for pvp

maybe gachas i guess is close too, where you don't have stats u have stars and basically more money = more stars

[sacred lichen]

one day we will wake up and have an actual product to give feedback on including some data points. no more speculation based on imagination

[golden kelp]

you have the product already, just that nobody's playing it

ranked at it's deadest still had lobbies going with no rewards no new patches for a while

[craggy panther]

"I guess it will be mainly collectors and an intersection of many genres who also like to collect and this will be true for most leviathan modes in future, but i kinda doubt it will be esport pros or TFT-pros or the whole autobattler audience.
With trying to shape leviathan for those pro audiences, you are mainly just eliminating the fun for whales so they won't come and you will end up with a 2nd ladder for those pro's in each genre."

I agree with every word you said.
The Ranked pros are simply trying to make the game easier for themselves, nothing more.

@glad river And yes, sorry friends, but I don’t believe the whole “I spent a lot of time and money on levels — I’m arguing against my own interests” narrative.

It’s actually the opposite. Completely.
My friend @rugged scaffold annihilates your comp because of levels, and mine because of his skill.
That’s perfectly fine. There’s nothing to be afraid of.

[median crater]

Yeah maybe multiple ways, grind in ow, burn illuvials, gyms, grind Arena for xp. Everyone can do what they enjoy the most.

[craggy panther]

Right now, I fully understand that Whity is going to be the king of Leviathan.

He has top-tier gameplay skills.
He has amazing illuvials.
He has a huge number of level 60s.

And that’s perfectly fine. He invested a lot of money, and (presumably) hired staff.
He’s supposed to beat us.

Later on, the situation might change.
Once training gyms are introduced, Ahelles (with an entire country in Zero) will probably crush many players with a full collection of level 60s.

And he’ll deserve it. Because he fed Illuvium with his money —
without whining about it being too expensive, too hard, too time-consuming, or anything like that.

[craggy panther]

I feel like the core audience for Leviathan is players who enjoy P2W modes and wealthy individuals.

Meanwhile, professional players are furious because they won’t be able to take the top spots on every leaderboard — and they don’t want to pay.

I believe Leviathan is built on three pillars:

1️⃣ Stats

2️⃣ Levels

3️⃣ Gameplay skill

If a player is annoyed by the first two, I’m sure they can shine in Ranked mode instead — and let P2W fans and wealthy players enjoy their own space without trying to ruin it for them.

[golden kelp]

your biggest blind spot is that you're very focused on ideals but you don't understand that there's not enough people to sustain a playerbase with just that, professional players have no problem, foxpirit, slickz and whity are gonna be top 3 by hundreds of points difference with worse teams than a lot of people who will not break top 10, and then they'll start complaining that they keep facing the same people and no noobs with default illuvials.

[craggy panther]

You’re trying to build a steady player base made up of people like you.
High skill, but weak decks.

But it will be made up of entirely different people.
P2W lovers, whales.

P2W haters will continue to hate Leviathan, and that’s okay.

P.S. I don’t like sharing my secrets and strategies, but I like you a lot, so I’ll share (just don’t tell anyone🤫 ): ||work more, don’t complain.||

[glad river]

@Patate | HYPE And yes, sorry friends, but I don’t believe the whole “I spent a lot of time and money on levels — I’m arguing against my own interests” narrative.
I dont know why you wouldnt believe me but heres proof

If they keep level i will benefit because i have lots of level 50+ and a full rogue variations lvl57-60

I believe with levels no one will play though and then illuvium wont be able to justify big prize pools for leviathan so they will eventually scrape it off as a mini mode for try hards and pivot to go fully f2p route with cosmetics only

If they remove levels i think theres a good chance the mode work as intended. People try/play free gauntlet and then if they want to compete the money is in leviathan and they start to buy cards or open packs to get cards to play

Even if most of the players are in f2p, as long as rewards are mostly in leviathan people will invest and participate in the ecosystem to compete and illuvium ecosystem could finally run with some demand instead of only supply

@craggy panther

[craggy panther]

I’m glad you brought up this topic.

I have no problem shedding some light on it.

You have 114 Illuvials at level 50+. That’s really impressive, strong, much respect.
This is what a newcomer would think when they open your profile.

But if we look a bit deeper, we see that you have a huge number of duplicates.
Let me help, it’s no trouble, I’ll count.
Out of those 114 Illuvials, 41 are duplicates (I hope I didn’t miscount).

So, in total, you have 73 unique Illuvials at level 50+.
And I understand that you’re worried you’ll lose to people with truly upgraded decks, like Whity. But that’s okay.
He’s done a lot more than you or I. Or anyone else.

[craggy panther]

Or another example: I remember how @blazing prairie wrote about a different, but similar problem.
She was buying perfect Illuvials. She liked her purchases.
Then, she was told that those weren’t perfect Illuvials. And she wrote that she no longer wanted to spend her money.

Here’s the problem. Developers need to stick to their words and identify the real audience for each mode.

What appeals to a TFT pro and a drop hunter won’t always appeal to a whale like @whole imp or a collector like @blazing prairie .

Consistency and reliability are the factors that build investment.

[golden kelp]

tell me why are axeless and torial not playing leviathan right now?

[craggy panther]

Why would they? It's broken.

#🎮〕illuvium-arena message

[median crater]

Maybe for free Arena they also could give a bit xp . For paid Arena more, ow runs , zero gym,burn. There would be enough ways and everyone could decide what game to play for it and to pay or play more .

[craggy panther]

1️⃣ #1358069125364056174 message

2️⃣ #🎮〕illuvium-arena message

[blazing prairie]

Winnie is right, I am a collector. I play Leviathan when Winnie tags me and lets me know others are playing. I never had any intention to ever play Gauntlet at all and it is a surprise to me that I like it but I don't like it enough to be seriously dedicated to getting great at it. I am a casual player.

I came to Illuvium as an investor. I got interested in the economic game of Zero and wanted to play that. I planned on purchasing a full set of Illuvials in case they were worth a lot 10 years from now. I have never been a gamer. Life circumstances changed for me in the last few years and I found myself with more time and had fallen in love Illuvium so I began playing all of the games. I enjoy OW the most. I am competitive in my career but not in games. I prefer a game to be about completion and seeing a perfect stat, level 60 complete Illuvial makes my brain happy.

When Leviathan is a serious game I highly doubt I will play it. I am not good enough. I will rent out my perfect Illuvials for others to compete with in competitions. Which is something I have talked about doing for years. I rented out Phylhiss for the Leviathan competition that Polemos held and watching someone else win in part because of the background work the person who captured her did and I did in levelling her up was fun. It was a team effort to success and I enjoyed watching the match.

[golden kelp]

But if this is your goal levels hurt you instead of help you, levels help something like 10 to 20 players in the entire game, and hurt everyone else.

[median crater]

You can say the same about stats or illuvials. Why there should be an ecosystem if everything should be for no effort ?

[golden kelp]

no you can't say the same about stats because that's actual collection, my point is if your goal is renting your collection levels are killing your demand

[median crater]

For an investment illuvials and land needs value. If you just spam illuvials for free, where is the point ? I Like to make more runs because of rewards , but I don't like it because the market just deflate. Good stats is more hard to farm then just level , especially if you have training gym, ow and xp in arena.

[golden kelp]

but that's exactly it, all the actual value is in stats, levels substract value

[blazing prairie]

It does hurt me, it hurts all of us because we have some people in here who have spent a lot of time and a lot of money on levelling up Illuvials because they trusted that it would be important because for years they have been told it would be. I know we are in testing and that everything is subject to change but the fact is that levels have been repeatedly talked about as being important to game play. It wasn't, "Well, we think they will be important but that could change." So, people spent time and money on it. You take that away and we could lose those customers and who are we replacing them with? People who may or may not even come. A project needs to be really careful about making decisions which alienate existing customers in hopes that those decisions will bring in new customers. I believe this is a big enough decision that we will alienate people. This whole idea that "we have to do what is good for Illuvium" is true but what is good for Illuvium is keep existing paying customers WHILE bringing in new ones not shiving the customers we do have in hopes that the changes will suddenly bring in thousands of people.

Levels increase demand to spend time in OW. Levels increase demand to have a more interconnected ecosystem where community is important as levellers and players need each other. Community ties encourage people to stick around. Levels give a different type of player a reason to play. Not everyone is interested in RNG stats. Some like effort to count, even if it is monotonous effort. I could see all of this being an issue if Leviathan were the only arena game, or if there was no marketplace or if there were no ways of renting Illuvials but none of that is true.

I don't understand what you mean about levels not adding value. I put in money and time into Phylhiss so she is more valuable than the 100% stat Phyriox that is a level 40. That makes sense to me, why should it all be RNG?

[craggy panther]

https://tenor.com/view/exactly-gif-3397598315635453816

[golden kelp]

" So, people spent time and money on it. You take that away and we could lose those customers and who are we replacing them with?

Here's my thought process:
Those people are 10-20 total, those people are done spending so to kill your game mode completely to not piss off that many players can't be the answer, if those people are pissed it's just the equivalent of old people pissed that young people don't have lead in their dishes anymore, they should suffer too.
Reality is our curent leviathan potential playerbase is somewhere in the 50-100~ actual players. This mode is actually unreacheable to anyone who comes into the game now. There's a huge cognitive dissonance between having the position that f2p leaderboard needs to be reset cuz u can't catch up to the top and levels need to stay, idk how that balances.

Now there's a world where devs just wrote the game mode off and this is just a way to give something to the people who put in the time so they don't get insanely pissed off, if that's all there is then everything i write is pointless anyways.

"I don't understand what you mean about levels not adding value."

If you just had stats matter new player POV is: comes into the game- I want rank 1->I'm buying a full team-> Im playing with perfect team 1 hour later.

If you have current level system new player POV is: come into game -> I want rank 1 what do I have to do? -> spend thousands to buy illuvials -> spend 6 months to level them? -> I think this will happen exactly 0 times in reality.
So levels substract value because it kill the demand for every single illuvial holder, when you could reasonably sell or rent to a new player like scholars in axie there is no reason for anyone to do that with levels in the game unless rewards are drastically higher.

[median crater]

Full stats full set will be very rar. Full stats with full level just more rar. There is no difference. It will be pay to win anyway. I never found 1 perfect stats illuvial level 60 is much more easy to achieve for anyone.

[golden kelp]

yes but they're gonna be just as rare as a queue popping if this is the direction.

[rugged scaffold]

new player popping in and buying a full perfect stat set is a scenario that's not going to happen.
There's too less perfect stat illuvials for this being a likely scenario.

I think you are looking at it from the pov of leviathan can just be cool if i have a full set, and people are just playing it if they have a full perfect set.
And so it is going to be an even playing ground for everyone playing leviathan and we can have a competitive scene in there.
That's not really what leaviathan is about (or should be)

[golden kelp]

There are enough imperfects to make a set (like a perfect op,hp,as octius with 3 resist 3 ad) stuff like that, there will never be a multiplayer game ever that can work properly without plug and players

[rugged scaffold]

check the dex... that's not the case

[golden kelp]

Also if the demand would turn out so high that people need to start doing autoruns for them that's just a win no?

[rugged scaffold]

of course that would be a win.

Imo, the average leviathan player has an average deck, maybe slightly above average. (60% stats)
Some of it aquired with adr, some of it maybe with OW and filled up the rest of it with the marketplace.

[golden kelp]

It tracks slightly with the way axie used to be, but this is again the levels turnoff blocking this

[blazing prairie]

Those people who spent to level are not done spending unless Illuvium is done creating. Give these people something else to spend money on and they will if we have retained their trust by not devaluing what they have already spent in time and money. Loyal customers spend much more than new customers and are a lot cheaper to keep. This is Web3. Word of mouth is huge and rug pulls are a real problem. Becoming known as the gaming project that doesn't follow through on what it has told players would happen is going to cost us. You won't get those new players coming in and if they do they will be more likely to be less loyal, spend less and be more about extraction.

Leviathan and Gauntlet are not supposed to be the same game. Leviathan was always supposed to be a game that was easier for whales than non-whales to enter and that is OK, we want whales to play because we like their money. They pay our bills. Not everyone has to be able to play Leviathan. That said, the beauty of how the ecosystem works is that you don't have to do all you said. You can practise in Gauntlet and if you are a great player and think you can win at Leviathan you can rent some high stat, high level Illuvials for I think about $2 - $5 each and go make more than that in Leviathan. Take your winnings and start purchasing your own team. Or you can spend time grinding. It isn't impossible, it just isn't immediate.

Gauntlet should be for the average player. Leviathan should be a sporting event. Whales who have the great Illuvials but not a lot of skill getting taken down by the great player whose Illuvials aren't quite as perfect. People renting perfect Illuvials to the player who has been #1 in Guantlet leaderboards. The doors of Leviathan arena swinging open as we spectate incredible games. This was the dream years ago and I still want to try it because I still think it will work.

As more players come in there could be different ranking systems. Like in sports where the beginners aren't expected to compete with the pros.

[golden kelp]

Something that needs to be made completely clear: there is 0 problem if the game mode is whales only, a full team could cost 1 million $ for all i care and it would be fine. The problem is whale wants to plug and play, pay 2 skip the grind, not have to do chores after spending money, that's the last thing whales want. As long as it's not plug and playable this is not a game mode it's a delusion.

[craggy panther]

💯 💯 💯

[median crater]

More level = more expensive for selling from Torial, perfect match and vibe haha

[craggy panther]

I just want to better understand your perspective:

If the developers introduced a way to gain experience quickly through expensive methods (like via Zero or a Battle Pass), would that satisfy you?

So basically:
– You wouldn’t ask for levels to be nerfed;
– You wouldn’t ask for cheaper leveling;
– You wouldn’t ask for stats to be nerfed.

The only thing you don’t like is that currently there’s no way to throw money at the screen and quickly get to level 60?

Is that correct?

[median crater]

Don't forget burning illuvials 😁😁😁 want to see increase the value again.

[craggy panther]

Let’s consider an example: I’m Elon Musk. In the morning, I buy a solid deck. By the evening, I want to dominate in Leviathan.

I buy the Battle Pass, purchase a massive amount of levels through it.

I end up with 205 Illuvials at level 60.

Are you fine with that scenario? Everything’s good then, right?

[blazing prairie]

Whales pay other people to do their work. Those people then spend the money to do the grind. Illuvium makes money from the ones doing the grind. If you would prefer whales to be able to buy XP to level that will make us more than getting rid of levels all together but you will no longer have the people grinding. Which may be OK, that depends on what the MMO lite will bring and whether it will keep the players currently grinding levels.

[median crater]

Yeah better burn illuvials, then buy. Then it's better to grind for us again.

[golden kelp]

yea

[golden kelp]

ok here's the problem with that, whale wants it NOW, if you tell him he's gotta pay and wait is he gonna do it or is he just out insta

[pure tundra]

We already have trouble playing Gauntlet, I can't even imagine how difficult it is to join a game of Leviathan.

[blazing prairie]

I have 1 perfect stat, Level 60 Illuvial.
My other level 60s are not perfect stat and my other perfect stats aren't level 60 yet.

[pure tundra]

At the limit kept the leviathan mode only for tournaments

[craggy panther]

Thank you very much for your response.
Today, Rich mentioned that the developers are working on adding experience gains through Battle Pass and in Zero.
So, the solution is quite simple: my friend, for now, you can still gain experience in a slightly less convenient way—by hiring workers.
A little later, things will become even easier for you: you will be able to buy levels through Battle Pass.

I’m not asking you to level up in Overworld yourself. I’m suggesting paying those who enjoy it. But if even this option doesn't suit you, I kindly ask you not to ruin the game for other players.

[median crater]

Then give the grinder more opportunity, like burn, gym, level in arena. Max Stats illuvials will only be lvl 60 then don't worry bro

[craggy panther]

@golden kelp Right now, we don’t have a new player base. We have an early-stage product.
We’re playing only within the community that’s already familiar with the game.

The way I see it, the scenario looks something like this:
In the near future, we continue playing with the levels we’ve already earned — either by grinding manually in Overworld or by hiring others to do it.

Soon after, the game will introduce the features Hollow is asking for — the ability to purchase levels with money.

And then, with time, new players will start arriving.

Everyone’s happy.

@golden kelp If you don’t enjoy playing Overworld, and you don’t want to hire others to help with levelling, that doesn’t mean the entire system should be turned upside down, or that the developers should go back on what they promised to all the players — that Overworld levels would matter.

And I fully agree with you that it would be even more convenient for whales to simply buy levels.

So let’s play the game as it is right now.
Or, if some people prefer, they can wait for the features they need.

What I’m suggesting assumes that levels stay exactly as they are — still providing that +25% strength bonus for Illuvials.
The only change would be improving convenience for truly wealthy players.

[bronze cave]

I see some smart people making isolated statements in this thread, but the game's longevity will depend on the ability to generate income for the ecosystem as a whole. This is why levels ARE beneficial for the game long term.

And - despite most people assuming the contrary - it comes from someone who does NOT have a levelled leviathan team (I have a very budget team, far from perfect stats and only a few of them are over lvl 50, most are not levelled at all).

The very existence of levels means more economic output is needed to get illuvials to their highest performing/most desired state. THIS IS KEY.

This can be done multiple ways, all of which is benefiting the game as it generates more income.

a - we can use illuvial burning to get xp > illuvial floors raise quickly to a level where more OW players will pay for runs because it is now worth it for them (income for the dao)

b - dao sells xp chests directly (income for the dao)

c - increased demand for high level illuvials on the market > OW players will play for runs to level up illuvials to sell (income for the dao)

d - we can include unlockable xp chests in battle passes (income for the dao)

Don't get bogged down on the leviathan game mode not being perfectly fair from the get go. Yes, in the beginning those will benefit the most who already put money/time into levelling their team. I see 0 problem with that. The others can catch up during the following weeks/months. It's not like you can only get to the money with a perfect lvl 60 team. Since we don't have many levelled teams yet, this simply means that good players can get into the paying spots with weaker decks. And if they wanna compete for top spots, they will invest time/money to improve their teams.

[craggy panther]

🔥 🔥 🔥

[golden kelp]

Why is this chain of thought not just ponzi? you've already seen that you can't fill a single lobby per day in no prizes leviathan, so by default you will have to pay players to be in this mode. Is the hope that they'll for some reason just pay more than they'll get paid?

[craggy panther]

Amazing words, my friend.

I agree with every single one of them.

[golden kelp]

The actual place levels make sense and actually add to the player experience instead of substract is pve, like the mmo lite, so they didn't lie if that's what they do about the "levels matter"

[oblique sierra]

you can't fill coz most of player at ranked now.
i remember time, around october - when everyone play Levi. coz it was no reason play ranked. now - no reason play levi.
as well this mod not work like should, coz noone touch/balance it, they made gauntlet well with all power.
Leviathan - it's hearth of game. not ranked.
and as soon it's start work like should - most of people will play it

[pure tundra]

The problem is that TFT players don't have fun xp the 250 illuvials (the old 1v1 mode made sense to xp lvl 60, it reminds Pokemon)

[oblique sierra]

have fun or don't have. it's not tft. you can accept rules of leviathan, or go play ranked mode for fun

[median crater]

Lets hope with polished, balanced game and advertisement, imx gems, tft influencer people will come, we beta testers anyway lol

[bronze cave]

This is probably correct in the beginning. But that's what marketing is - paying people to play your game. Then - if they have fun - they will tell their friend and colleague to try it too.

In the end, we WILL have to have a fun game if we want long term success, and the player base will gradually build up. TFT did not have the same player base on day 1 then what they have now.

Not sure why you would compare it to a ponzi though.

[bronze cave]

And that's fine, they can fully compete in ranked mode from day 1. Some of them will likely get interested in playing leviathan though, and they can choose to invest more if they wanna compete there too.

[golden kelp]

leviathan as a game is strictly worse than the existing ranked mode, tft had league of legends ip, a godlike game and an autobattler popular meta when they released, they had to pay no one. I can legit see some streamers and for sure some people in my riot scrim groups and tft twitch chatters play ranked, i can't see 95% of those people even try leviathan if i tell them they can win 10k$ by spending 1k$

[sacred lichen]

https://tenor.com/view/ogvhs-crystal-ball-prediction-future-predict-gif-18199743

[bronze cave]

Look, I am a hobby player and that's all I ever be, so I don't really have insights from pro players. But I tell you this: there are "accidental" players like me, Torial and many others who did not intend to play an autobattler ever but still get stuck in it cause we love the IP.

In the beginning, I will help fill up lobbies if I see a chance to catch a low paying spot on the LB, or just because I have fun. So will others like me. And if the competition gets to a level where I am really getting beat and don't have fun anymore, I will step back and maybe rent out my levi illuvials.

But by then, we will have a healthy amount of players and much more high level illuvials and in the process, the dao makes a bunch of income.

Over the long term, if the game is successful, the playing field will even out with many more high-stat, high-level illuvials available and owning a levi team will just become a ticket to be able to participate in the highest prestige league/tournaments. There will also be collectors investing into levi teams as a long term investment.

But - as I made my point in the previous post, there will be a whole lot of economic activity within the game to get to this point, which is great for the survival of the IP.

[proper harbor]

Removing levels makes sense if we want leviathan to be more attractive to new players but I wonder if that's what we want right now since the marketing campaign hasn't started yet

Keeping levels relevant could satisfy a part of the current playerbase, then we remove then once the marketing campaign starts and finally we add them back once we have XP features

[clear flame]

If yall wanna really make utility for illuvials and not require levelling then make a baby mode

Keep leviathan and dont fuck wit it...
Make a baby mode that doesnt require levels so anyone can play

but no rewards... just play fun

[full cape]

In any game, a beginner has to make efforts and develop in order to become competitive, so why do you suggest removing levels (in fact, the only aspect of the game for which you need to make these efforts). And if we are talking about whales, they can buy ready-made Illuvial on the market. For now, let's kill our OG's efforts to attract new players, but will they come to a place where they are already unhappy?

And so, we are removing levels, and between Illuvials with characteristics 3-4 (which are practically free on the market) and 4-5 (which require decent investments) there will be from 4% to 6%, and this is absolutely not affected by augmentations and drone buffs. You understand that is, neither new players nor OG will have any motivation to chase strong Illuvials.

A beginner coming to the game. and after collecting the entire collection , he will want advantages in the arena , but how can he get it if the key mechanics for this are disabled ?

I think that for those who just came to watch the game and did not intend to stay, there is a free rating mode, but if you want to become a top player. Then go capture, level up and upgrade your skill in the arena.

And all these conversations are for those who are looking for an easy way... There are no easy ways 🫡

[whole imp]

Remove the Diablo unique sets = stats in iluv and hardcore = levels iluvs. Who will play in this Diablo? We love journey in game - so long journey in game like levels, stats - that this game interests us. If you remove all this, no matter how many new players come here, they will all leave in a month because there is nothing keeping them here. Our goal is not only to bring players, but also to keep them here. When you close high contact in a couple of weeks, the game becomes uninteresting to you.

[onyx rock]

havent played them all but i know most and there is no grinding for levels. Say what you will but i dont think leveling is a thing anymore, thats gone

(former runescape player here, grindiest leveling game ever)

[coral valve]

the idea of grinding for rewards has become small games for quick satisfaction.

[onyx rock]

I can understand leveling skills or ranger. But leveling every single illuvial is a teeeerrible idea

[clear flame]

Maybe this has already been talked about… but why not make a way to acquire xp like a currency? That way we can sprinkle them into illuvials as needed… and to build upcoming reserves for future.

That way xp is within an account

We can call it xp powder

https://tenor.com/view/crackhead-dave-chappelle-scratch-neck-gif-12419243

[whole imp]

In Dota, you didn't do anything without levels and items, so every 40 min you grind levels and items, the same in Marvel, every hero needs to grind levels etc, Baldur needs to grind levels and items, every time you need to grind something, unfortunately. So yes in some action games where you don't need to pay money - you don't need to level up, but when you have levels and boost from items, you have 2 options - grind it far years or use money to boost it

[proper harbor]

I like this idea

We could do both: have xp specific to an illuvial that you gain by playing it and xp as a currency

Or you can just use fuel to buy xp this way a whale can simply get an entire team lvl 60 by paying a lot of money, simpler and better than adding an xp currency

We can do the 3 too

[hexed marlin]

https://tenor.com/view/getting-pretty-close-pretty-close-close-nearby-close-proximity-gif-16046583

[onyx rock]

You need levels for 100 diff characters?