#Trait Purity Indicator

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

dark heath
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I have read the full blog on the TPI, and followed the discussions here on Discord related to this, during the last couple of weeks, and after spending a few days reflecting on this, I will share my thoughts.

I understand the concept of the TPI, and actually think it’s a pretty well thought out system, that is a nice way to future proof the stats of each Illuvial in multiple games. There are some of the elements on exactly how the “Bin Weight” is calculated and the fact that we have 16 of them, that may be a bit complex to dive into, but I trust that there is a sound reason for calculating it in this way.

However, as we right now only have one game, that is only using 6 of the stats for the Arena, and every Illivial that has been captured up until this point has been “valued” against these 6 stats, it’s creating quite a bit of confusion, as how exactly to evaluate this “new TPI”. Although the actual Illivials may still perform exactly the same in Arena as before, it suddenly adds an extra number that can be very different then the actual “power level” of that Illuvia for Arena. For someone looking to buy a good Illuvial on IluviDex, it can also be a bit more difficult to determine the actual value of the Illuvial for Arena specifically. And last, the nature of how TPI is calculated also makes it almost impossible to have a 100 TPI, which from a “marketing point of view” may not be the best, as people would want to collect/buy/flex those perfect stats Illuvials, and psychologically something that is valued 99 (out of 16) will never be seen a good as something valued 100 (out of 6).

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At this point, I think it would be better to put the TPI value a bit on “the back” of the Illuvial, and not be the main flashy number that is presented, until we have at least 3 games where Illuvials can be used. I would rather have a number shown for AP (Arena Power), and OP (Overworld Power) when we get to use Illuvials in the new Overworld.

The AP (Arana Power) could just be a simple calculation of the “Hexagon stats”, giving a number 0-300. I know this number would not be weighted against that specific Illuvial. (you could have a Caradulo with AP 200, that is just as good as one with AP 300 in Arena)... but it would leave room to change the way an Illuvial function in Arena without “messing” with the AP valuation. (example with Fludd, that used to only have 3 stats that matters, now the other stats also has a value). This would bring back the notion of having “perfect stats” Illuvial for Arena, and would be much easier to understand. (this simple indicator is also a lot easier to implement without complicated calculations that would need to be updated if the way an Illuvial works, change).

rapid condor
dark heath
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To give an example of what I mean...

It's not really changing or adding anything new, its more on how it is displayed and explained on IlluviDex.

There would be an "Arena Power" number displayed and highlighted when it's high... mouseover still display the Hexagon. The TPI is toned down, and when Mouseover, its explained with something like
"Purity indicator, is a number combined from 16 unique traits that is going to be used across the different Illuvium game modes..... "

dark heath
rapid condor
dark heath
# rapid condor I don't even think it should have come before the OW went live but rather with t...

exactly why I would rather "hide it" and make the only "Indicator" that matters right now be the one that is highlighted.
Introducing TPI as the important Indicator before there are more than at least 2 games doesn't make much sense, and is just going to confuse people. But if it is a part of the "core data" for an Illuvial, it's ok that it's shown and explained... it just should not be the one that people should focus on right now when we only have Arena.

If I only want to use my Illuvial for Arena, I dont have to care about the TPI, but on the other hand if I have an Illuvial with crappy Arena Stats, and high TPI, I might want to hold on to it, if its going to be valuable in some other game mode in the future.

dark heath
hushed moat
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The TPI is hopeless for a level grinder; it's twice as much work because if you have a Rhamphyre with 300% max stats for the arena, you'll have to level it up to level 60. If it has a TPI of 90-95 and you have a Rhamphyre with 250% for the arena with a TPI of 98, you'll also want to level it up to level 60 for another game mode. Anyway, grinding levels has become prohibitively expensive. Only the rich will be able to level illuvials to level 60. The gap between pay-to-win and grind-to-win has become too big.

edgy dust
# dark heath I have read the full blog on the TPI, and followed the discussions here on Disco...

In short, (assuming everyone is happy with it) we're going to change it so that it's based on Arena.

Hopefully people can appreciate that when you have a development roadmap that is expected to include upwards of 10 games, that you want to give yourself some flexibility.

The 16 trait system was designed so that we could give you all your stats now, knowing that they were secure, rather than needing us to add some later on, and feel rugged. The field we use for this is on chain and accessible now.

But in any case, since people want the system to be based on just one game, there's really only one option. We’ll need to remove the extra traits and limit ourselves to exactly 6 per game. As a game designer, it's never fun to be forced into a corner on a game that might be 10 years away. But it's not a major problem.

However, I do want to bring one thing up. If players are going to be consistent with their complaints, then this forces us to always have EXACTLY 6 traits per game, and always use a 0-5 value system for them.

Imagine we make a game where there are only 4 traits. If you go on the marketplace and buy one based on it having "perfect" traits in that game, you might be disappointed if you later find out its TPI is not 100% (because maybe it has low stats for traits 5, 6 that aren't used in your game). You might say "but they will have the TPI indicator so they have no right to complain." While I agree, I just want to point out that on at least four occasions we have publicly made information known (even having large written warnings on the purchase page) only for many players to say they didn't know and it isn't fair. The fact is that most people don't pay attention, so we have to build to people's uninformed expectations, and we aren't always going to get that right. It's quite hard.

So either the problem is always going to be present (to some extent) or we are excluded from making any game where we can't use exactly 6 traits.

In any case, I've already done the new calculations, and assuming we can get an IIP done to change it (maybe not necessary) then we can update it. I've written a small blog post on it that will go out pretty soon, assuming no pushback on this.

PS: Thank you for bringing this up in a mature manner. If everyone did the same, the community would be an even nicer place to be.

edgy dust
edgy dust
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Final Note: Under my proposed new system:

5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5 = 100%
5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 4 = 99%

The weights of each trait will be 70% of the trait before it. This is arbitrary, but ensures that only perfect equals 100% and the next closest to perfect will be 99%, which feels right to me. (And it will always be the case that two illuvials might value their traits differently. We assume that the 'best' trait is going to be more important than the second best, but in some cases two traits might have the same value to that Illuvial. There is nothing we can do about that, and balance changes will modify that all the time. So if you really want to know how good a unit is, you will always have to go into that game, play it, look at its actual stats, and see for yourself.)

The average TPI will of course be 50% with a SD of about 12. (For those that care about stats.

quasi elm
edgy dust
# quasi elm Personally sad about the Change. I liked that there was/is some flexibility for ...

Had we been able to develop the illuvidex fast enough to show these other traits clearly (rather than just having them on chain to see), then maybe people wouldn't have assumed only 6. Because we could have had a big hexadecagon showing everything, and maybe when you hover over 'arena' it would highlight the 6 that matter. But honestly, I don't think that would change anything.

For the MMO it won't matter I don't think. It was the least of my worries when it came to stats. Autobattler and MMO are pretty similar stat-wise.

Hearts Ablaze might suffer though. sadgery

loud nebula
# edgy dust Had we been able to develop the illuvidex fast enough to show these other traits...

Thank you for listening to our concerns even though I know this has made things more difficult for you and I am sorry about that. I really can't imagine how hard it must be to try to do development on this game and why you would want the future flexibility. I really wish that there had been an asterisk on the Illuvials page saying "stats for Arena - future stats to be shown later or however you wanted to phrase it. I didn't know how to see them online.

You said on your other post that you mentioned the 16 trait system three years ago. Much about this game has changed from what the plans were three years ago though, the community can only go by what we are told today. I am very sorry to hear about Hearts Ablaze though, the game I am most looking forward to.❤️‍🔥

loud nebula
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Something I just thought of, if you want to keep the 16 trait system, could you make the ones with 6 perfect stats have 16 perfect stats or is that a crazy idea?

edgy dust
river hinge
frosty kiln
# edgy dust **In short, (assuming everyone is happy with it) we're going to change it so tha...

Planning for the future is fine, but let's focus and make the present work first.
i believe 16 inherent stats are excessive. WoW only has 4 primary stats.
Plus 4 secondary and 4 tertiary from equipments.
Can you list the other 10 hidden stats?
The main concern is not that we have 16 stats, it's how people have spent (invest) so much on illuvials believing they have bought the perfect illuvials then it turns our they havent

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That is why im proposing to the IMC to just ignore the other 10 hidden traits and give people their 100 TPI

lime temple
# edgy dust **In short, (assuming everyone is happy with it) we're going to change it so tha...

Aaron, I don’t want to limit developers by the number of attributes, and I understand your line of thinking. However, it's important to consider that any changes you make to the game (whether it's Overworld, Arena, or anything else) undermine the trust of people who invest money. It’s impossible to invest in something that devalues, constantly changes, or gets canceled altogether.

We already have a free market, and that's great! But unfortunately for you, this fact imposes some limitations, and I hope you understand that.

I see a few ways to maintain people's trust and preserve value:

  1. Each new game will use no more than six attributes. This way, we use the existing set of six attributes, but in each game, they will represent different things (for example, in the Arena, it could be "attack speed," while in racing, the same attribute could represent "jump strength"). This ensures that the value of an Illuvial remains unchanged and relevant across all games.

  2. If future games require more attributes, we could incorporate them into the game's lore. For example, Holo and DH Illuvials could have mutations that add hidden attributes, but these should align with the existing attribute system (e.g., if HP is 5, the newly added attribute should also be 5). DH Illuvials could gain even more additional attributes.

Either of these options preserves the value of the current attribute system.

These are just examples, but perhaps they will help you see the situation from another perspective. In any case, thank you for your hard work!Atlas_Love

edgy dust
dark heath
# edgy dust **In short, (assuming everyone is happy with it) we're going to change it so tha...

Thank you for your thorough reply and shared thoughts. Atlas_Love

As I also wrote, I personally think it’s a pretty nice concept with the TPI as you have implemented it and I also remember it’s was discussed in the past that there would be more stats attached to the Illuvials, and I also don't really have a problem with having both a TPI and a Hexagon to show strength in Arena. But I do understand it can be confusing the way it’s currently displayed, as the number doesn't “correlate” directly with the Hexagon displayed next to it.

would it be possible to keep the TPI and make the description a bit more clear that this is an overall indicator designed for multiple games, and then have a separate number that is specific for Arena, that is the primary one displayed on the front, for now?

But also get the point, that if we do that... people would likely have forgotten about the TPI when eventually new games/stats are introduced. Atlas_Pepe1
Generally most people would just want something that is easy to understand at a glance, without having to read or understand the underlying systems, and this is also why so many are confused now, even if nothing really has changed at all.

So it is a tricky one for sure.

hushed moat
lime temple
edgy dust
edgy dust
frosty kiln
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Never blame the customers

edgy dust
nova schooner
nova schooner
edgy dust
nova schooner
edgy dust
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It’s been mentioned dozens of times, like I said. There’s no “may” about it.

It’s because we didn’t know how many traits we wanted per game. And locking in a small number just makes development more tricky. You have fewer options.

But in any case we will make it work.

Until someone complains that the game they love doesn’t have 7 traits. Which will definitely happen. 🫠

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Keep in mind that they aren’t extra traits like “charisma”. They are just numbers we can use. Each game will always use trait 1 as the first.

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But now we will just use 6. And always use 6. And only use the 0-5 value system. That’s what we are locked into now.

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Hexes FTW

frosty kiln
edgy dust
# frosty kiln are the traits shown on immutascan?

As I said. They aren’t realised traits. It’s just a single value that we use to derive traits. They wouldn’t be turned into something like “charisma” until we make a game that uses them.

But it’s moot now.

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We aren’t deleting them btw. Just won’t use them and will update TPI. So they will exist forever.

frosty kiln
edgy dust
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Yes. It’s one value. A 256bit number.

frosty kiln
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how to see them on immutascan?

edgy dust
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On phone now. I’ll show you when I get a sec.

left nimbus
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Maybe we should calm down about this trait purity, for the moment we are playing Arena + Overworld before having any future games we should wait at least 3year

fringe cove
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Convert each bin → decimal → % of 65535- to get your % - then you can compare illuvial to illuvial

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to see what bins 1-6 represent which trait per illuvial

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those give you the modifier %

swift fiber
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I liked the idea of a AP arena power tpi using the 6 known traits for the arena and overall TPI using all 16 traits for future games and flexibility. It keeps the best of both worlds/options. I understand those holders with perfect stat AP illuvials feeling sleighted but your illuvials are still perfect for the only game currently utilising them...

frosty kiln
nova schooner
nova schooner
loud nebula
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@frosty kiln @nova schooner
What has happened with this? Is an IIP needed to make the changes or???

quasi elm
loud nebula
frosty kiln
loud nebula
nova schooner
loud nebula
# nova schooner Aaron has a blog I believe he will release soon. I would tag but it's Sunday, it...

Sorry if I tagged you on a Sunday, I never know what day it is in Australia.

I was seeing someone making capturing decisions based on TPI instead of the hex and realized that we are letting people do the same thing all over again. We are going to have people upset that they have been spending their money on TPI because nothing is being communicated. People shouldn't have to comb through every board to find info in order to make good decisions when they are giving Illuvium money.

I know Aaron is busy but council could spread the info or an announcement or something? I haven't wanted to say anything because I don't want to give false info, I'm not positive that they should be basing their capture on the hex not the TPI number.

frosty kiln
nova schooner
edgy dust
frosty kiln
edgy dust
frosty kiln