Feedback Idea: Expanding Top 5 Reward in Wave 3 Leaderboard to Top 10

[zinc current]

Problem Statement:

The current Wave 3 Leaderboard reward structure, which grants unique Illuvitars to the top 5 positions (with a 1/1 for the winner), followed by a significant gap to the top 25, creates several issues:

LB Point Calculation Inconsistencies:

The late-stage adjustments to Wave 3 LB point calculations created significant uncertainty and frustration for many players. Some players experienced point reductions in the final week, impacting their potential rewards.

This lack of clarity and the last-minute changes undermine the competitive integrity of the leaderboard.

Unequal Reward Distribution:

The significant gap between the top 5 and top 25 rewards is disproportionate. Players ranked 6th to 25th receive the same reward, despite the vast point differences.
One user holding multiple top 5 positions, negates the spirit of rewarding the top 5 unique players.

Top 5 Reward Exclusivity:

While the top 5 rewards are intended to be highly exclusive, the combination of LB point issues and the possibility of multiple accounts held by one player dilutes the value of these rewards.

Proposed Solution:

Expand the top-tier reward bracket to the top 10 positions.

Grant the same unique Illuvitar rewards (as currently given to the top 5) to players ranked 6th through 10th.This will provide a more equitable distribution of rewards and address the frustration caused by the LB point calculation issues.

This will also help to prevent the reward system from being abused by single users with multiple accounts.

[past sierra]

I dont mind somebody having multiple accounts since they still earned their position so dont think they should be penalized in any way.....but I do agree that something should definitely be done about the gap between 5 and 25....it feels bad knowing put in so much effort trying to get to 5th and then if you just get edged out you end up with same prize as someone with way way less points...I do hope we can rectify this situation this wave since I dont think it would take a huge adjustment. My suggestion would be to change the illuvitar prizes to 1/10/30....or add another illuvitar prize for top 10 ....making it 1/5/10/25.............i much prefer the 1/5/10/25 idea........

[zinc current]

I also dont mind about having multiple accounts as they are spending money to achieve that but side effects of it to have top 5 rewards is not justified and it should have included atleast top 10 for that reward as gap from top 5 to top 25 is too big.

I am just getting points from multiple community members and put that here for discussion

I also dont mind of having top 10 players reward as different illuvitar than top 5 and keep the top 25 as it is. Only issue is that we dont have that illuvitar created and ready by the team

[past sierra]

ya is definitely better to give more opportunities for special awards for more people...agree...the way it structured now makes more people feel disappointment rather than feeling like they made a good accomplishment......top 10 should feel like a big accomplishment but it feels disappointing if not in the top 5....and that is definitely a mistake

getting same reward for 6th as somebody in 25th dont make sense......the points gap is very big

[upper mantle]

I'm not involved in these decisions at all, but one thing to keep in mind purely from the art side is that we don't have, and there isn't time to get a new illuvitar made before the deadline. So there would have to be a delay if this were to happen

[past sierra]

i think a delay would be cool since it feels like next wave isnt expected for longer than a month now....so might as well let us battle for wave 3 a bit longer

if team doesnt feel like they wanna do it though i would respect that decision too....dont want this to add any stress on the team...but if they are okay with doing this i think it would be a positive

[foggy thistle]

Yes, I also voted in favor because I am among those who feel frustrated and who probably won't buy in wave 4. This proposal seems perfect to me, because even the points calculation system in wave 3 has been distorted compared to the normal calculation of the main ranking and I honestly feel deceived. I prefer 1, 5, 10 (with a new illuvitar) and 25

[silk geyser]

Im looking at this from a few angles and i dont know the best decision so ill share my full deliberations:

1. Personally I dont mind this at all, sure 1/10/25 or 1/5/10/25 sounds fine, i would introduce either option in wave 4, but if needed I could see it happen in wave 3. It is a more gradient approach so overall positive from a player's perspective.

2. It is yet another change to the leaderboard and this one being even closer to the final snapshot so it could cause confusion and fomo which are both rather negative emotions.

3. From a dev perspective it is just yet another item to do. Would it require another delay in snapshot? What are the unintended things we would start with this?

4. We would require the team to create 4 unique illuvitars per wave after a number of layoffs. Is this something the team is capable off? They wrote the original proposal with 3 illuvitars carefully considering the team's capabilities right? Otherwise i bet they wouldve added one for rank 10, 50, 100, 200 as well. (I for one wouldve loved getting a unique illuvitar at rank 160 🤣)

So, from a players perspective im all for it. A lot = good and more = better. Is my family motto :]

From a development and team perspective I am a little more hesitant: Things went a little rocky this wave, but it went the same for everyone so lets change things for wave 4.

Now tbh im not sure what the best outcome is. Including and rewarding more people probably is the best outcome, and seeing that @vagrant spade has 3 top 5 albums, he sure isnt helping with that 😒 🤣
So maybe a(n additional) top 10 reward is the best for sustaining beyond players and therefore best for the DAO regardless of considerations 2&3&4.

[foggy thistle]

I think this won't cause confusion, in fact I think people will be more gratified. The snapshot can be taken on March 1 as scheduled. For positions 6,7,8,9 and 10 they can wait even an extra month for their premium, it wouldn't be a problem. another solution would be to give positions 6-10 the ramphyte like position 5 not holo but colored.

This way the team doesn't have to develop another illuvitar

[silk geyser]

Yeah that could be a way to circumvent that. Dunno if it will look just as nice though 👍

[ebon jackal]

I've voice my opinion on this before the wave ended. Now I don't find this appropriate. If we want changes it should be for wave 4.

[ornate mulch]

for wave 3 - if a change is insisted it should move the top 5 reward to be a top 10/whatever reward. We wont make anything new for Wave 3. There's no time and no capacity at this point.

I personally still prefer to keep it as is.. again, the rewards were outline in the proposal well before the wave started and it seemed fine, only when people came closer to the end did they disagree with this. Which i can understand, but im not sure is a good enough reason to change.

To me - Wave 4 can easily cover this change and make it known well in advance.
So lets keep it this way - confirm we all want this threshold change in winner-rewards and then implement it for the next wave. 🙂

[foggy thistle]

the money spent in wave 3 is not worth less than the money in wave 4, if the change is correct for wave 4 it must also be corrected for wave 3

[ebon jackal]

and what about wave 1 and wave 2? No illuvitars there for leaderboard...

[ornate mulch]

You can probably see a wave like a patch .. stuff changes from wave to wave, getting rid of what was bad, and hopefully adding things in that are good/better.

[foggy thistle]

if you can't change for wave 3, for me it's not right to change for wave 4 either. However, if you are convinced that there is something wrong that needs to be corrected, do it now

[ebon jackal]

I wasn't asking for it. Just saying that argument of money spent in wave 3 being less worth it ain't really a good one.

[ornate mulch]

We can, but we shouldnt. The reward structure was in place well before the wave started.

But with the new wave - lets take what was good in wave 3 and carry it over - but change the things that were bad in wave 3 and changes them for wave 4

[ebon jackal]

so if things are bad now we shouldn't change them just for consistency sake?

[foggy thistle]

so if you think this is bad, change it immediately, not in wave 4, anyone who is unhappy today like me will not participate in wave 4

[ornate mulch]

But i cant make things that will change for wave 4 (which isnt confirmed what exactly will change! ) to fit to wave 3 - Right now.

[foggy thistle]

yes out of respect for those who spent in wave 3

[ornate mulch]

maybe suddenly someone comes up with an insanely good structure 2 weeks before the launch and you all want THAT change instead.. so we go with something completely different to what is being debated right now.. do we then, again change or make whole to those that participated in wave 3

[ebon jackal]

things don't work like that sadly m8.

this is a product still maturing. It needs to have changes to get better.

[foggy thistle]

precisely we improve for the better immediately, because the ranking changes the scores from one day to the next and any proposal is moved to wave 4

[ebon jackal]

we're less than 3 days from snapshot...

[foggy thistle]

The structure didn't work for me from the start, I immediately pointed out that the rewards were also disproportionate, in fact wave 3 lost the whole battle in the middle.

[ebon jackal]

there was another thread about this: https://discord.com/channels/760344898200666112/1342496059036798986

11 downvotes there, so the sentiment to do a change right now isn't crystal clear. Otherwise I have no doubt the team would make it.

[foggy thistle]

in fact, here there is no one against it, it is said to add an additional premium between n. 6 and n.10. the investment difference between 6 and 25 is too much to have the same prize

[ebon jackal]

yes but the ILV reward is also substantially different from 6th to 25th...

[foggy thistle]

even between 5 and 6... almost double

My problem is that I find everything incorrect, since the wave 3 ranking works differently from the main one it makes me think that it is made on purpose to let others win. If it closed on February 22, Litre-a-cola was no. 5, now from n.1 to n.5 there are at least 3 albums by the same person. Now what's the point of participating in wave 4 if the people who invest aren't rewarded?

do you think that this way there will be more players or will the current players also be lost?

[ebon jackal]

IMO alt accounts aren't a problem at all. In fact if someone spent enough to have 3 accounts on top 5 why shouldn't he be rewarded accordingly?

[foggy thistle]

in fact this is fine with me and it is also right, but you have to be aware that you will never get the best prizes

[ebon jackal]

yep life is unfair and there's always someone who is a bigger whale then us 😅

what we need is more whales to increase the competitiveness of Beyond.

[foggy thistle]

life is not unfair, what happened is unfair, so a major region rewards your top 10 appropriately

[ebon jackal]

bro life is totally unfair 😬

there's no divine justice on earth.

[upper mantle]

https://tenor.com/view/brooklyn-nine-nine-brooklyn99-insulted-insult-slap-gif-16736769

[vagrant spade]

I'm sorry but I think this proposal is ridiculous and shouldn't even be entertained.

The whole premise is based on inconsistencies with the leaderboard point calculation, which as far as i'm aware, effected absolutely everybody, it was not discriminatory in any way, we all suffered equally, so how can it possibly be justified to offer "compensation" for this to only a few, while actually penalising others that suffered the exact same inconvenience.

One thing that wasn't inconsistent was the fact that the rare illuvitar rewards would only be available for top 1,5 and 25. Everyone was fully aware of this fact for months and said nothing.
It is only now people are realising that they aren't going to achieve. a particular rank, they are using this false premise to try and justify receiving one.

I have a feeling some may not like what i'm saying, but I feel strongly that it's the truth of the matter.

[drifting hawk]

i complitely agree with this @vagrant spade and @ebon jackal on this. I don't want to change anything anymore for w3. it makes no sense now (even thou i could profit from it).

@foggy thistle arguments that we should keep same structure for w4 makes no sense. We want to improve with each wave; figure things out, keep what we think is good and improve on what we see doesn't work. In the end we want best product possible and not just ''good enough'' product.

Also argument that there is big disparity between position 6 and pos 25 is huge: yes, i would agree, but what about position 11 and e.g. 25 or 30. it is also big gap. We could than argue to make more ladders so that we have eg. 1, 2-5, 6-10, 11-20, 21-35 etc... why just argue for position that suits your needs? if you want to be constructive why don't you try to make a proposal that would satisfy more than just a few players?

[foggy thistle]

I'm sorry you think it's ridiculous... after the leaderboard update on February 21st at 10:00 am I was n.5 with 119,000 pts more than n. 6, magically at 10:30 am the ranking is updated again and I'm n. 7. Then I discover that the wave 3 ranking with the new update does not work like the main ranking, it does not calculate the T0, the luminuos, etc. etc. Now how would you feel in my place? I teased. Maybe the positions would have been the same? maybe I don't stay among the 10? no problem, I wouldn't have complained, as I haven't to this day. They had more than 3 months to make the wave 3 ranking work, with 1 day to go you turn the ranking upside down and expect everyone to look good? Not to me honestly. Is it correct for you that the no. 6 receives the same prize as n. 25? Not for me and everyone agrees on this but it will change in wave 4. Now do you hope that the leaders in wave 3 will participate with the same interest in wave 4? I do not. If you're okay with it, I'm not, but I'm happy for you.

[foggy thistle]

Make a proposal that satisfies more players, I'm fed up, every proposal is systematically rejected, maybe I don't understand or I'm not capable

In fact, in order not to take anything away from anyone and not to increase the team's work, I had written to give n.6-10 the same prize as n. 5 colourful.

If you read back in the chat for the extra printed gold Poohs I proposed eliminating them... because it wasn't fair that whoever paid handsomely for them thinking they had a rare piece saw about 120 minted in one day.

I have nothing against anyone, but I have to express my thoughts.

[vagrant spade]

I went through the same thing, as did many others.
My Alexa account was at 2 million points, way ahead at rank 1, only to plummet to rank 4 or 5, needing at least 200k points to get to where I already believed that I was.
The problem is, although it felt bad, I was there falsely, taking the position of someone else that deserved to be there.
It's bad but in that kind of situation you just have to suck it up. There's no fair way of compensating everyone under such conditions.
Whatever shortcomings we believe wave 3 has, we improve for wave 4 and roll with it.
We don't go demanding compensation from Apple when they release a next gen iPhone because it's better than the one we just bought a few months prior.

When it comes to tier 0's, I believe that it was communicated many times that tier 0's currently did not count towards wave 3. We was waiting on confirmation as to whether they would. They ultimately confirmed that they didn't, which did actually benefit the community as it meant no change.

I agree the length of time it took to get this confirmation was undesirable and the leaderboard update coming out so close to the end of the wave also, but with what we now know what going on behind the scenes, understandable.
I'm pretty sure if they was able to, they would have gotten the update out way sooner. The positive is, it's here now and Beyond is all the better for it moving forward.

I have nothing against anyone, but I have to express my thoughts.

Nothing wrong with that. Hopefully you continue to do so.

[foggy thistle]

"We don't go demanding compensation from Apple when they release a next gen iPhone because it's better than the one we just bought a few months prior." The point is that we all bought the same Apple, if mine doesn't work like the others I ask to make it work the same so as not to create differences. Now I feel cheated, and the question is simple, if the ranking worked would I have complained? No. If there was a clear regulation I would have complained? No. If the wave 3 chart worked like the main one would I have complained? No. So I smile when they tell me that it can't be changed now, the cards have been changed many times, wave 2 has been extended by a month, the snapshot of wave 3 by a week, etc etc

[vagrant spade]

I understand that, but we all experienced the same thing. With that, how do you propose that everyone is compensated equally? because this certainly is not it, surely we can agree on that.
So for me, it is either compensate everyone equally or no-one at all, and given the choice, I would go with no-one at all.

I don't think i've seen anyone say that things cannot be changed, rather they would prefer to not have to. Please see attached quote.

[past sierra]

for people saying if there was a change made then why just a top 10 prize? the reason for that would be that is the most obvious change to make.......the only major mistake in prizes was having such a huge gap between 5 and 25.........then add on top of that the constant unknowns about the point system people were more concerned about not understanding how wave 3 even worked and then to make that worse the board was broken............i spent wayyyy more on illuvitars that i didnt need and would not have bought just because of the simple fact that board was innacurately displaying my points and i though people with worse albums then i had at the time were wayyy ahead of me.......then after spending hundreds more dollars i find out points were innacurate and i didnt need to do that. For all those reason i think there is a huge reason to want to make a change for people who would have been screwed the worst (which obviously would be the big money spenders around the top 10) but also without making others feel like they are getting screwed. I never thought adding a top 10 card or something like that would be seen as a bad thing to anyone besides the fact it would take more time to create....and honestly i think this would give an opportunity to make a collectible badly drawn "rushed" illuvitar...like a joke card...that way it wouldnt take any time to make....and we would feel honored with special illuvitar for our achievement

that being said though...that was my suggestion and hope and reasoning.....if some people are very against it such as Alexa and Rogier say they think we shouldnt do that....then i am fine with not doing it......if they havent changed their mind about it soon then i think it is best we just drop the issue and agree we just focus on wave 4 from now on.......if i was a new player and was only fighting for wave 3 leaderboard i would be much more disappointed with how it turned out but since my experience overall with beyond is very good it is not a big deal to me

[zinc current]

This is also true. We can't justify the inconvenience caused by the issues by giving top 10 player Reward. Major point is the big gap between top 5 and top 25 which i believe totally valid concern which came into picture very late

[zinc current]

I also believe that top 10 rewardw instead of top 5 came only after those late resolution on LB points calculation in which people lost points and that changes in position highlighted the original issue of the big gap from top 5 to top 25 which i believe valid concern but it came from the community very late in the wave. I don't remember anyone talking about that big gap before the last week...

[ebon jackal]

since the reward illuvitars were only shown at the last week of the wave no one gave a flying fuck until then.

if you want things to change voice your opinion when the proposals come forth.

[zinc current]

That also true 🤔😀

My main concern is top 5 to top 25 transition is not correctly balanced and i always support top 10 rewards to fill the gap.

[foggy thistle]

it's clear that there are disappointed people, but at this point it's no longer worth it... you have to understand that the top 10 don't want handouts, not even undue rewards, it was simply a way to reward your best players/investors, as far as I'm concerned, even a common T0 would have been fine... but if the discussion is correct for everyone it's clear that our request isn't so absurd... if it's right for everyone for wave 4 why shouldn't it be right for wave 3? If we want to improve it's never too early

[foggy thistle]

I'm sorry but I did it from the beginning and Alexa agreed with me both for the reward gap in the main ranking and in wave 3

[ebon jackal]

https://discord.com/channels/760344898200666112/1298482302069772348
wave 3 proposal was approved in October ma dude.

[foggy thistle]

of course you're right... but do you remember that we arrived at this after months of blocking rewards, and that several empty proposals had already been made?

[ebon jackal]

what other proposals are you referring to? I think this was the only one for wave 3 if I'm not mistaken.

[zinc current]

I think major disappointment came from top players as they were spending too much to climb the LB and only in last week we all realised that LB points calculation were wrong and they had to fix it and fix was done in last few days of the wave that caused drop in points drastically for many players and they needed to start bonding more things to climb the LB now. I also feel that same issue who were competing for top 25 but the effects there was much smaller as you needed to spend less amount of money to reach there as compare to top 5. I would still stand with my point of top 10 rewards explicitly because of those reasons and obvious reason of major gap from top 5 to top 25. We can then also compensate with something like extra ilv from 11th position to 250 position in proposition to their reward percentage ratio. For example, each player from 11th position onwards and upto 250, they can get extra 1% of their earned reward

[vagrant spade]

I'm sorry but I did it from the beginning and Alexa agreed with me both for the reward gap in the main ranking and in wave 3

I apologise if I wasn't clear with my original statement reagrding this, but I did agree under the presumption that this would be implemented for wave 4. I should have specified that.

[vagrant spade]

Sorry again but I don't understand the logic.
You feel that the top players 1 - 10 specifically were disproportionately impacted, yet to rectify this, a reward that is specifically for position 1 - 5 participants, you want to water down to 10 participants, therefore disproportionately penalising the absolute top spenders to appease those in position 6-10.

[zinc current]

For that point, lets say we dont change top 5 but for 6 to 10 position, as suggested by @violet copper in different feedback chat, we can have holo version of jokull and keep the top 5 position illuvitar as it is