Leviathan

[timber dust]

Idea is that both new and old players are satisfied with Leviathan. Now current leviathan arena shouldd stay like it will be after updates only thing remove should be lvl immportance, leaving it that only stats matter. Since all new players that would join i doubt will have nerves or will to lvlup till lvl 60+ cuz it simply takes to damn long, lets say months or more........So that one thing being solved, now lets go to old players who invested tons of time to lvlup....For those folks that want to compete at highest lvl i suggest creating another leviathan arena (where lvl would matter) where you would be able to put some eth and winner would take it all, that was some kind of idea if i remember from one of illuvium trailers fight for eth but for those that fight for eth make it be possible as 8 players and also as 1v1. Thank you....

[gaunt wharf]

I am categorically against this.

1️⃣ This literally devalues all the efforts of countless players. Countless.
I played Leviathan and was pleasantly surprised to see that many players have a whole squad of level 60+ Illuvials. If levels stop mattering, it will cause a wave of negativity and disappointment in the community. Illuvium needs only positivity.

2️⃣ Imagine this situation: a player with a small budget wants to try competing in Leviathan. Right now, they can buy, for example, my Adorius on Illuvidex for $9+ (roughly the price of a few Snickers bars), invest their time in leveling it up, and become a worthy competitor at a mid-level.

If levels are removed, poor players will have no chance to compete in Leviathan because a high-stat Adorius currently costs $627+.

Let it be difficult for lower-budget players to compete against whales, but they should at least have the opportunity to reach a mid-level. And if they have exceptional skill, they should have a chance to compete at a high level too.

3️⃣ A player does not need level 60 to win in Leviathan. Level 50+ is more than enough if they have strong gameplay skills.
And reaching level 50 only takes one day of active play.

If a player is too lazy to level up their Illuvial, if they don’t want to pay for assistance, then maybe they simply haven’t done enough to deserve victory in Leviathan?

[barren quest]

In axie infinity need 6 month for 1 axie to achieve max lvl. In illuvium now needs 5 day so with auto dron its 40 clicks, so need only gus

For 5 iluvs 50 levels needs 6h or 10 clicks auto dron and 15 seconds

[timber dust]

thats why make 2 leviathans, one where just stats matter, so new players ont needd to spen half a year to lvlup since some will have time some wont, it ill also boost prices of illuvials, more buying an selling, second one woul be where lvl matter and dyou can win eth there.

also renting on polemos would be boosted

[gaunt wharf]

This will negatively affect the speed of game search.

[timber dust]

when thousands of new players join i doubt so

in any case leviathan where you needd to lvlup illuvials will take some time to get more ppl, cuz of that lvlup aspect, ink who would play if he/she has no lvled illuvials

[barren quest]

Lol maybe 10 or 20 ) who has tier 5, tier 4, tier 3 etc next who have 50 40 30 20 level, than from a to e name, e to k, k to z i can continue

[dusty basalt]

worst idea ever... 🙄

[rain grail]

Another gauntlet mode is definitely not needed. This will divide the players even more (there are already Ranked and Leviathan). Meanwhile, I understand that we are talking here not only about the creation of a new gauntlet mode, but also about the complexity (and a very long time) of leveling up. When the next season comes out and new players arrive, they will definitely not be able to immediately (and will not be able to quickly) enter Leviathan in order to compete with current players on an equal basis. Whether it should be like this or not, I don't know. On the one hand, what is stopping players from going to level up their illuvials right now? On the other hand, this approach is not aimed at new players (as long as they create 60lvl illuvials for themselves, the season will end). In my opinion, there are many options for solving this situation. In other games, when I got tired of just playing for the sake of increasing a unit’s experience, I bought a boost x2 (x10) in the game and got the maximum level every other day. And as far as I remember, we will still have a building in ZERO to increase the experience of illuvials (wasn’t it cancelled?). So, in my opinion, a new gauntlet mode is definitely not needed, but the situation with increasing the levels of illuvials is worth attention as a separate topic.

[feral pine]

LOL It surprised me that I didn't agree with any of what was written, it's incredible!

[pine crown]

The mistake of the developers is obvious at the moment, they have shown the players by their actions that lvl significantly affects success in battle. If we go to remove the lvl function, then the developers need to do a lot of work to compensate all players who have any pumped illuvials above level 1, the illuvium financial model cannot afford such a gesture now, given the fuel rates at which the level was pumped.
The only thing I could suggest is:

• it is clear to everyone that lvl in Leviathan can scare away a huge part of the new audience, so in fact it needs to be removed.
• instead, according to the average lvl of units used in the match, there should be a coefficient of rating points, and more importantly, this is the coefficient for the drop season. For example: the coefficient range should be 0.02-0.6, which corresponds to 2-60 character leveling levels.
  Thus, the lvl characteristics will not directly affect the gaming experience, but only the rewards and a place in the top, for which the characters were upgraded.

[pine crown]

Many people are very worried about the unbalanced leviathan gaming experience, forgetting that leveling illuvials was originally an investment of money and time that should pay off, rather than turning their deck into an invincible monster in the top, in which only a few whales can sit if a new player wants to compete with a deck of 60 lvl and, accordingly, 0.6 by the coefficient, he should just play 60% longer, because for him 160 points will be for 16 games, and not for 10, if you take 10 points for 1 game on average.
On the other hand, if the LVL 60 deck sinks in the top, its rewards are offset by a coefficient of 0.6
Only the symbiosis of an experienced player and the deck will allow you to stay at the top and show others that there is still room to grow.

@white lake How do you like my suggestion?

[tawdry wolf]

I see where you're coming from, but in my opinion, Leviathan should either reward massive time investment or allow players to shortcut that investment by purchasing high-level Illuvials from others. Removing level importance takes away a key progression factor that gives value to long-term dedication. Plus, down the road, it will be super entertaining to watch high-end Leviathan battles where crazy stuff happens... maxed out Illuvials, insane strategies, and unpredictable outcomes that make it a spectacle.

For a pure competitive scene, we already have Ranked Gauntlet, where skill is the main factor. Leviathan, in contrast, should remain the mode where time, investment, and progression matter most.

Personally, I would rather add more time sinks to further strengthen Illuvials in Leviathan than remove any. For example, add a talent tree for each Illuvial, where you need to accomplish missions to build it out, or introduce a gene manipulation lab where players can improve the genetics of their Illuvial. To make this even deeper, you could require special consumables from raids to perform certain genetic enhancements. These mechanics would give players more long-term goals and add layers of depth to progression.

Additionally, having many time sinks is what drives the high marketplace value of top tier Illuvials. When someone lists a Titanor Level 140 with great stats, a fully built talent tree, and 30% mutated genes, it should feel like a premium asset... a reflection of serious dedication. If progression is removed or minimized, we lose the market depth that makes these high-end trades so exciting.

[gaunt wharf]

I fully agree with every word you said.
You are absolutely right.

[timber dust]

when thinking about it back andd forth 17 more times, it makes sense for long run, harder to obtain=more value, removing lvl immportance from leviathan would have positive efect on buy an sell of illuvials but only on short time... so yea it makes sense to be a bit harder + those skill trees and feel of progression woul ad more value on top of that.

when ppl would get illuvail in max shape then it would be much harder to put it on sale, to much time spent on it, if lvl importance is removed ppl would jut play to farm end sell 💯

[feral pine]

Probably the best idea I've read lately... 🤝

[timber dust]

💯

[neat brook]

There is an arena, there is a Leviathan, if you don’t have time to level up, then go play in the arena.

[native lily]

You won’t get the current people here to rethink leviathan until they see it isn’t monetizeable and won’t attract players, rather it will be a very easy negative PR.

We can hope it magically works, or that it won’t be too late to shift away from this monetization idea.

Obv people who have sunken time into it and wanted this are the current audience, not enough to monetize, but they are obv incentivized to keep this and maybe farm rewards of it.

[tawdry wolf]

what would be your solution to make it attractive for players?

[native lily]

at the very least similar to how op suggested reduce the time component needed, buy at marketplace is a poor solution, as it limits amount of players drastically at first, due to the fact very few are playing/farming for such a game mode atm, which indicates few think it would be worth their time atm as well

time is a far bigger burden than money

other issue on this could be, that the time component is fluctuating in value, as it is purely inflationary, makes "gambling" on value go up tougher as well, reducing the chance that people want to invest/hold these

similar to how speculating on Illuvials is tough due to fuel potentially going only lower/only more Illuvials existing
all makes it less attractive to buy/own assets

[tawdry wolf]

so your solution to make leviathan attractive for players is to reduce the time component because it limits the amount of players when the first season is starting?

why would it limit the amount of players?

[native lily]

unless you have lv 60 illuvials, why play?
amount of those is limited, due to time needed to create them obv, whole point of original post

[tawdry wolf]

for fun?
Not every gamer plays to be world rank 1, if so every game would be dead.

So leviathan just would have a rough start, but as soon as there are enough illuvials it would attract players?

[native lily]

why play a game for fun, in which you have worse units than your opponents?
also if it is fun, why aren´t people playing it atm?

I mean w.e. same discussion over and over again, if you think this will work sure, you should be buying lots of Illuvials atm then.
I hope you and others put your wallets where your beliefs are, revenue would be good for Illuvium.

[pseudo garden]

I agree with Viper, Levels and traits is too much. Just traits would be more than enough. I don't think the mode is really that much fun when there's such power difference.

[gaunt wharf]

Hey! If I remember correctly, Kieran mentioned the training halls in Illuvium Zero over the summer, which would be used for gaining experience for Illuvials.

Let's assume that experience won't be used for competitive modes like Leviathan, but only for modes like Overworld.

Don't you think this could be another blow to landowners, who are already recovering from the -90% drop in land value and nearly zero profit from fuel production?

I value your opinion, so I’d be interested to hear your thoughts on this.

[tawdry wolf]

that's like asking why people play for example pvp in WOW even if they don't have max gear.
I guess there's multiple reason why noone is playing leviathan, for example the incentivizing of ranked gauntlet with tournaments which is likely the biggest since also noone is playing testnet which is the same as ranked just improved. Or maybe because there's in general barely any player in the ecosystem.

[native lily]

You get gear by playing PvP in wow unless it got changed nowadays.

You don’t pay to play it.

[tawdry wolf]

Does it work i don't know, for sure there's no whale buying into a game throwing in 10k for a top deck if there can come along a pro player with a low 100$ deck and wreck the whale up.
I guess noone reading this discord would probably stack up illuvials with the uncertainty arround the rebalancing.

[tawdry wolf]

yea, you get exp by playing any game in illuvium.
isn't that the whole point you trying to argue, spending time for getting good is not what people want?

[native lily]

? You compared having a better loadout going into a game.

If you can farm exp in substantial ways in games it will be botted, which due to tradeable assets isn’t good.

[native lily]

The guy supposedly spending 10k won’t exist, because the guys who would spend 100 don’t see a reason to play and lose to the one spending 10k.

[tawdry wolf]

yea i did, which is the equivalent to experience or stats

[native lily]

WoW items are soulbound not tradeable.

This is just fairy tale talk of whales who supposedly would want to come and play.

This exit liquidity won’t happen, if people would spend money on such a game/model it would exist already.

[tawdry wolf]

so you think if the guy who spends 100$ and is able to beat the whale with 10K$ deck there will be people paying 10K for a deck? Why would anyone do that?

[native lily]

No there won’t be either to begin with.

Because the experience is bad for both.
The whale won’t have non whale to play vs and non whales won’t play because it isn’t in any way better than alternatives.

Like again, no one is playing it currently.

[tawdry wolf]

but you said if time component is gone it would be attractive for people?
So now you think there's no chance for leviathan anyways?

[gaunt wharf]

Hey.👋

I've already spent more than that amount on this game. I exist, I'm alive. 🫀

I won’t even mention @barren quest @river dock

[native lily]

I said time component is a bad part of it yes, I also think it won’t work anyways yes.

[tawdry wolf]

lol ok

[native lily]

Well sadly there aren’t many like you otherwise there would be more revenue and wouldn’t need to raise capital.

[tawdry wolf]

guess there's no need to debate more then 😄

[native lily]

Idk what there is to debate.

Gauntlet is a TFT clone now, with p2w as utility for NFTs, no one is playing with them or buying those atm.
Seems pretty bad.

There is no example of people playing or wanting such a game either to an extent that would generate enough revenue as well.

[tawdry wolf]

maybe you haven't seen, but there are in general barely any players atm.
Due to different reasons.

Besides that
There's like 50 people active, at least arround 15 with a mediocre bis really good deck that would be an almost 30% of the player base spending money for p2w which is pretty good i would say.

[native lily]

30% of 50 doesn’t sound good.

[tawdry wolf]

absolutely
but arguing about leviathan is not good and bring up evidence noone is playing doesn't make any sense if noone is playing all the modes anyways.
Problems would be elsewhere as mentioned above i would say

[gaunt wharf]

Not many people are playing this game in general. Hardly anyone plays any of the modes.

Beyond, Zero, Survival, Gauntlet...

But all it takes is a little patience, a crazy media campaign, and some rewards for the leaderboard.

Then the real bloodbath will begin in Leviathan.

I want to see Leviathan in its glorious primal form. In a true hardcore meat grinder. That's how it should be.

And if players don’t want to level up, pay for stats, and so on – I’m sure they can show off their highest skill in the regular Ranked mode.

Keep Leviathan intact for those who love it. And we’ll keep throwing money at the screen.

[gaunt wharf]

This is what I'm talking about!

[native lily]

Nice we are back to you need to pay people to play^^

Option a) revenue negetative from rewards
Option b) not many play as they can’t ROI positive ^^

You need a product people pay for entertainment.

[tawdry wolf]

no one is arguing that 😄

[native lily]

Winnie just said that

[tawdry wolf]

fine... almost no one

[native lily]

Also you can have leviathan as a game mode, who cares, I point out that the chances of it bringing in relevant revenue and relevant Illuvial usecase are slim.

Even as a p2w it is very poorly designed.

[gaunt wharf]

When I went to play Leviathan, I admit, I was a bit overconfident.

I thought I would consistently take 1st or 2nd place.

But then I met @tawdry wolf , and he destroyed me.

What conclusion did I draw? I wasn’t upset about it.

I was thrilled to see that there are people who are interested in this mode, that they are much better prepared than I am. And, of course, they have a significantly higher skill level than mine.

Many more people have prepared decks for Leviathan.

I was genuinely surprised by this. Pleasantly surprised. They’re just not visible right now. They’re preparing in Overworld.

[native lily]

Didn’t you say above there are like 50 people who play Overworld?

If so many would do this, why is fuel at 5000% bonus as well?

[gaunt wharf]

@native lily
Why am I not playing Leviathan right now?

We tested it. Found many technical issues.

Why waste time on it again?
When I can spend that time in Overworld, preparing even better.
And finally try to beat @tawdry wolf .

An extra day in Overworld increases my chances.

[gaunt wharf]

I didn’t mention anything about 50 players. Looks like you got confused or are talking to @tawdry wolf .

[native lily]

There aren’t many playing Overworld or high trading volume on Illuvials either though.
Everything is incredibly cheap atm due to no bottom rail. If one would be optimistic on this why aren’t they happy to play for cents on the dollar atm?

[native lily]

You did agree on the assumed number, which is likely realistic.

[gaunt wharf]

Because very few people know about this game.

Its media presence is currently dead.

This is a time of opportunities. Take advantage of them.

[native lily]

Most in web3 know about Illuvium, they are all very low sentiment on it though for various reasons, many game play related.

[gaunt wharf]

Please don’t misquote me.

I didn’t mention 50 players.

But overall, the point is correct — there are generally few players in Illuvium.

However, a significant percentage of the player base is preparing their decks.

[native lily]

If your playerbase is incredibly small, a high % of that isn’t super relevant.

This isn’t a direct correlation to if you have more players more will behave like that.

[gaunt wharf]

I’ll venture to assume that this is due, at least, to two aspects:

1. The majority are drop hunters, not all of whom were able to earn. They’re not being fed right now. The hunters are starving and upset.

2. We have a great many other game-related issues. I don’t see a point in listing them. They’re obvious to everyone. Leviathan isn’t the issue here.

[native lily]

To 1) it seems vast majority of the KOL people and community sentiment around games with more organic players isn’t good towards IlV, not only from „can’t make airdrop“ people.

2. the issue of needing utility for Illuvials exists and the current model seems like it won’t work, there need to be capital raises, token low is an issue, so if all these good gameplay updates happen, but still no one cares for Illuvials, worse times ahead

Also Airdrop Hunter/p2e people would play the game at current fuel bonus if they would see a realistic chance in the assets doing well.
It is very bad people are as pessimistic as they are with the currently proposed system.

[gaunt wharf]

@native lily

Viper, your criticism of Leviathan is not only destructive for the game but could also undermine the willingness of those who are ready to invest in the project to continue doing so. ❌ I'm not talking about myself — I'm here for the long haul.🫀

Right now, it feels like I'm talking to a wall. You argue just for the sake of arguing.

I see no point in shifting from a constructive discussion to emotions.☯️

I'll simply stick to my opinion, as such conflicts clearly don't interest anyone.

[native lily]

How do I argue for the sake of arguing?
I have pretty clear Thesis and arguments for it.
(For the record this ad hominem stuff to discredit me pointing out things that are uncomfortable for people like you to hear is getting old)

What makes you believe Leviathan Gauntlet will give enough utility to Illuviuals to generate enough revenue?
That’s the question, so far no one could answer this with more than „yeah bro some whales will go and spend millions for sure“

If these points I make here, which maybe 20 people read is enough to rek leviathan or harm Illuvium, then everyone should take the 20% offers from bots on the Illuvidex.

I get the hate follower guys more by the day, feels like future is looking very grim with these options here.

[fickle rivet]

Up a team of 8 illuvials to level 60 is great, but up the 200 illuvials to level 60 is going to kill me...

[river dock]

The following is my personal opinion. Also, since I am translating, there may be some strange nuances. I apologize.

I have spent a lot of time to level up and a lot of money on illuvials with high stats.

LV50-LV59 : 42 illuvials
LV60 : 83 illuvials
I also have a lot of high-status equipment.

But now I don't feel like playing Leviathan Gauntlet. I don't intend to explain the complicated reasons. It's just that "I simply don't feel excited when playing."

It's not interesting to easily rank in the top three places, and there are not many players who will compete with each other.

I think there are probably around 10 players who have illuvials with stats and LV that can be played properly in Leviathan. It may be even fewer.

And I can't imagine a future where that number of players will increase in the future.

There are plans to add various elements to the gauntlet, but as time passes, it is getting closer and closer to TFT. (The elements unique to illuvium are fading.)

This proves how great a game TFT is, and at the same time, I feel that it proves that it is not possible to attract TFT users. (People who like TFT will just keep playing TFT.)

This means that it will be very difficult to increase the number of players in the future. The fact that it is a web3 game may be raising the barrier to entry.

This has been a long post, but based on the above, my personal opinion is that it will be difficult for Gauntlet Leviathan to gain popularity in the future. Perhaps something fundamental needs to change. I'm not sure what that is, but...

Of course, I would like to continue playing Illuvium in the future and play for a long time.

It is very disappointing that the time and money I invested in the Leviathan Gauntlet cannot be put to good use, but it would be even more disappointing if the player population did not increase and the game became even more depopulated than it is now.

[fickle rivet]

@native lily You see, there are lucid people. ☝️

[shut halo]

The levels are not the issue themselves, it's how they are obtained (extremely boring) and what they provide (bonus stats yaay).

Leviathan gauntlet needs to be alot different than ranked gauntlet. Not just meta, stuff you do during the game too. Gear effects, illuvial omegas level changes, active spells used during combat, etc. It needs to be different.

Otherwise you spend thousands of $$ and thousands of hours of playtime for what? Getting a different stat meta of the f2p gauntlet? So why bother spend all this money and time when you can get pretty much the same experience f2p and instantly?

Ascendant should have been finished first too before start working on gauntlet, as that mode could have been the perfect one for Leviathan and getting people into ownership.

Ive been beating this horse for a while but no one cares, the team does what they want.

So many mistakes were made that it feels pointless to even keep mentioning them, it's just sad.