#IIP:XX – Improving Free-to-Play Gameplay and Ownership Value of potentially all Illuvium-NFTs

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tardy cosmos
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Overview:

Labs should work towards creating a system that gives players of Gauntlet and future games rewards based on owning assets including but not limited to Illuvials, without having those assets impact the gameplay unless they are tied to gameplay elements in that game or game mode outside of this system as well.
It should be at Labs discretion when to apply these systems and to which parts of any game.

Rationale:

Many games and genres in the gaming industry are currently optimized and designed with cosmetic-only monetization, and applying concepts from these games to Illuvium titles seems beneficial. However, they are not suited to incorporate ownership in a way that would alter gameplay.
Gauntlet and potentially other future games are better suited for a Web 2.5 approach, where ownership could provide rewards and could tie into an economic aspect but does not directly impact gameplay.
This approach aligns with the industry standard of comparable games and genres, which typically avoid mechanics that differentiate player capabilities based on owned assets or, in the case of non-NFT-based gaming, rights to access or use virtual items as outlined in end-user license agreements (EULAs). In both cases, these rights or owned assets do not alter the capabilities of players.

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For anyone wondering, I don´t think most of the examples or extra points in Rationale add much value to ICC/IMC votes, I see those as mostly explaining to the community/gaining upvotes in this current governance system.
As this is now the 3rd thread of this, I thought we skip that, to maybe avoid redundant revisions.

The original more detailed Rationale from that had a 2-2 vote by ICC is here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1a5U_ZRvOk_kDUPR-QXF4YzRNmFRoevAq39eFzhWHwM4/edit?usp=sharing

The first most detailed version with examples as well can be read here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/108aRmMom3GCeTbRQ8dCQ8KhXCQvVb0ghZKVrMsolW9o/edit?usp=sharing

charred adder
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While an abstract and simple summary are missing... :]
The underlying idea of adding a usecase to ownership without necessarily impacting current Ranked Arena gameplay ór leviathan, seems like a fair take.
Leaving all implementation details to the team should take away concerns around that as well.

Suggestions to work on proposal form were mostly cast aside. But since the idea is so broad and the proposal is short, it may be redundant to write a summary. That being the case, Ill let that slide.

tardy cosmos
surreal solstice
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👍 = let's get this moving through

charred adder
tardy cosmos
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Ok, maybe me then, overlook did sound negative in a sense to me

calm siren
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What as low as possible effort systems do you envision to combat pure extraction, cheating, wintrading etc

tardy cosmos
tardy cosmos
# calm siren What as low as possible effort systems do you envision to combat pure extraction...

Tough question, first thoughts that come to my mind on low effort options:

Reducing unwanted and exploitative behavior to 0 doesn´t work, people cheat and bully others for fun in games with 0$ to make anyways sadly.
I believe tying reward or price structures to as natural and successful gameplay as possible and having it mostly in the top % of players, eventually having it in a top fixed number of players only even is likely the best you can do, making this something that is a bonus, but not the main reason to play. Meaning don´t pay sums of money that make people prefer this over a job.
Usually being good at a popular game gives monetization options like coaching, boosting, creating content and similar, rewards shouldn't pay better than that e.g

Multi-Acc is likely the hardest to "beat" exploit, best option here would be to make it hard to have multiple clients open/be able to play multiple instances of the game while fullfilling the criteria for rewards. Gauntlet e.g. is a harder game to multiacc than a card game already, if your reward requirement is something like achieve X amount of top 4s, or if rewards scale with X amount of top 1-4, 1 giving more e.g.

In the end this is sadly a calculation of accepting certain amount of people exploiting vs real players.
Similar to e.g. a raid shadow legends stream usually requires streamers to get X amount of people to download the game for max earnings, raid shadow legends accepts, that many of these are family/friends or viewers bought via gifting a sub or so.

Further assuming utility outside of rewards for Illuvials especially, you don´t need a return more than cost narrative on a low timeframe.

tardy cosmos
# calm siren Yes

The best "earn money for being good at video games" options are usually related to either make money directly or indirectly via advertisement or via offering services to people.
These options would hinge on Illuvium becoming successful enough for those 3rd party options to exist.

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Illuvium could also "indirectly buy sponsored content" via esport programs tailored for attracting high level creators/known players from other games, which would give the average player the same options in that system, maybe with fewer connections/experience/headstart than current or former pros in related games, but would give that narrative.

tardy cosmos
# calm siren How does Parallel or other "web2.5" models approach this models nullification of...

Using Parallel, I think most people perceive cheating on ladder in the higher ranks not worth, as the risk of being banned from esport or reputation damage would be high.
Anon people are more of a problem, but if you have a reason for many higher level people to play your game, those tend to have a hard time doing things like multiacc in higher ranks and options like wintrading are less time efficient and can be found out as well to some extent risking time invested into 0 return if rewards aren´t payed daily, but monthly or with vesting periods e.g.

calm siren
# tardy cosmos The best "earn money for being good at video games" options are usually related ...

We both know this to be true, but I think it doesn't align with the common mans dream, most people know it but don't know the extent. They want to become Faker more than Tyler1 (something to be said for both, but the former is "simpler", probably not "easier")

Usually being good at a popular game gives monetization options like coaching, boosting, creating content and similar, rewards shouldn't pay better than that e.g

This quote highlights that as well

tardy cosmos
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Doesn´t have to be esports, could be raffle like things as well maybe, like the Hunting events we had in Discord that have skill input, but more variance than a for low variance optimized esport system.

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With following we´d have to consult legal, but could also create events, that need a "buy-in" like a ticket/Illuvial/fuel or so and pay out less than the tickets cost.
Could scale that to lots of participants, then the first place price can be very high.
This has been a topic couple times in the past already, idk where this stands atm though.

tardy cosmos
buoyant stratus
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IMO web2 and web3 are two very different audiences and going for a web 2.5 strategy right now seems to me to be a mistake for many reasons.

web2 folks want a good F2P game, even better if they can potentially earn something, and web3 want a P2W game where they can get an advantage from their collection and also potentially earn.

The current two game modes we have cater to both audiences and so I don't see any need to change it.

calm siren
# buoyant stratus IMO web2 and web3 are two very different audiences and going for a web 2.5 strat...

web2 folks want a good F2P game, even better if they can potentially earn something, and web3 want a P2W game where they can get an advantage from their collection and also potentially earn.

Very heavy generalization here imo

My main argument is that the Leviathan model we've had in mind for years has been untested and throwing it out before testing it is unfair at best
But my top of mind risk with the model is that even with very juicy rewards AND less power scaling, it will face substantial player numbers problems, atleast in a Gauntlet-only scenario. Survival and Ascendant are much more suited for it imo
Viper's proposal with some tuning and possible variation once I deeply think on it seems like a suitable plan B

buoyant stratus
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  • "Very heavy generalization here imo"
    Is it wrong though?
    If the problem for leviathan is being untested then why not let us start testing it before launching it?

  • "But my top of mind risk with the model is that even with very juicy rewards AND less power scaling, it will face substantial player numbers problems, at least in a Gauntlet-only scenario."
    I think you're misjudging the power of rewards and how many web3 players that will bring. Not making a leviathan mode seems a mistake IMO and a huge FU to the whole community that supported Illuvium to this very moment.

calm siren
buoyant stratus
# calm siren You can test it as we speak right?

the Leviathan gauntlet? I can't cause no one is playing it. You guys would need to coordinate with the community for us to play test it. It's already hard to find a match in the normal mode let alone in Leviathan mode...

calm siren
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😅

calm siren
calm siren
tardy cosmos
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Compared to F2P, ownership is a burden to extractors compared to 0 investment.
Compared to leviathan, this likely gives far more players, which in itself makes every eploit option harder/less lucrative, as the share for the exploiter/extractor is smaller and often harder to obtain.

calm siren
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So your complete model vs the one in place at the moment

tardy cosmos
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On a exploit pov:
In general especially in the current web3 landscape a form of ownership->rewards with a low and scaleable entry likely generates more users, which makes most of the exploit options harder period, as wintrading, being high ranked and similar become harder due to competition from more real and organic often skilled players.
This would be the biggest upside re exploit issues.

tardy cosmos
calm siren
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Question is to what degree, a question to which I have no answer nor a decent hunch

tardy cosmos
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In the end the way to exploit both systems are similar.
From a maximizing revenue perspective, I´d understand that leviathan wants to be top heavy, which here isn´t necessary.
If leviathan isn´t top heavy, then the value proposition of perfect Illuvials would be not necessarily high.

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In my poposed system here different assets outside of Illuvials can be used as well compared to leviathan, making it harder to exploit, as the needed assets can be adjusted to fit the nromal player rather than the extractor in a more organic and not damaging to avg player option.

calm siren
# tardy cosmos The proposed model also doesn´t have to replace the current one fundamentally. T...

Agreed, there's an interesting intermediate solution, where ownership thresholds could lead to reward multipliers. The thing that springs to mind for me is set ownership per finish. Pulling numbers out of the air: Colour -> 2x, Holo -> 5x, Dark Holo -> 20x. It somewhat solves the other downside which we haven't discussed yet here which Kieran mentioned in the other thread which is clarity. You got position 3 in the leaderboard for arena this "subseason", but you own 83/205 illuvials with these tier distributions therefore instead of 100 ILV you earn 69.69 ILV

tardy cosmos
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Also I wanna highlight again I don´t see this as a replacement, rather an addition.

calm siren
tardy cosmos
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(also sry I am juggling the conversation and playtesting for a tournament atm, so not quper quick and might miss something)

tardy cosmos
calm siren
tardy cosmos
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Even though I think it isn´t far fetched to assume more players would play in the essentially f2p game mode compared to Leviathan.

calm siren
tardy cosmos
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Also how the narrative of each of these rewards systems could be marketed might be relevant as well in terms of educated guess to how many players.

buoyant stratus
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not only would this give an incentive to the normal mode to own the assets without affecting the gameplay but it would add an extra layer to the Leviathan mode where one would have to choose if he wants to play with his DHs for the reward multiplier or play safer with their best stat illuvials.

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not to mention that it would increase the value of bad stat illuvials.

tardy cosmos
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2 other points by me before I go sleep^^

  1. We mostly talked about this on a what´s easier to exploit basis, being able to identify what parts of the ecosystem your regular/organic/for entertainment playing players engage with outside of Illuvials can help increasing the opportunity cost for extractors/exploiters.
    As (I fairy tale ignore how this could work on a dev side here) people could get bonuses compared to other users based on owning NFTs outside of Illuvials as well and this could rotate and change.
    Then someone who bought the Battle Board for fun gets rewarded and extractor would have to buy it, but if it doesn´t go net positive it isn´t interesting for the Extractor, still a bonus to the player.
    Same could be applied to holding a Land or having done an Overworld run today, etc. options are endless in theory, at least on a long term pov, as this wouldn´t be nothing on a dev side I assume.

  2. This isn´t only useable for gauntlet, other games can run into similar issues of having ownership matter, a BR Shooter like Warzone, Fortnite, Apex might have a tough time with a leviathan mode of better guns due to stats as well, same would go for a Moba, having your character just be stronger in the loading screen already.
    Illuvium could use such in web2 explored genres and games and learn from what works, without having to integrate and force ownership in what then would have to be a new version of these and would have to be explored and pioneered by Illuvium to some extent, which could be a big risk paying off big or include lots of costs and trial and error.

buoyant stratus
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if you don't want to deal with ownership matter then don't play Leviathan modes and just go play the normal mode. Solved.

calm siren
buoyant stratus
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Leviathan is THE end game for OW and the sole reason for the economy to be in the gutter cause there's no reason to farm OW rn since there's no place we can use our assets in a meaningful way.

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seems kinda obvious to me.

tardy cosmos
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You do see the problem though, that if the only reason to play is to gain rewards, people won´t play unless they go net profit, which then is not profitable and not sustainable.

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That is a major concern and problem for many games in this space.
If offering rewards for playing would be a no brainer net profit, many games in web2 would do this.

calm siren
buoyant stratus
buoyant stratus
calm siren
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Regardless, probably best to continue this conversation once Leviathan is properly tested gentlemen

calm siren
buoyant stratus
calm siren
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Atleast in my interpretation

buoyant stratus
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you need a good stable game first, but yest the rewards are what kickstarts the whole thing.

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this is web3 Perry

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we can't expect to attract web2 players if we can't even convince web3 players first.

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I'm not talking about Illuvium to my web2 friends with the current state of the game.

lilac lake
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A bit similar to the proposal.. but simplified a bit. So, Hopefully we will get the Repository/Collection album at some point, where you can collect points like you do in the Beyond album… points can be accumulated by completing Illuvial sets, Holo/DH set completion bonuses, etc.

The % of completion of the album could be a small multiplier to the rewards for Gauntlet ranked leaderboard. so if you have completed 40% of your album it would give you a * 0.4, so if your Gauntlet rewards from ranked leaderboard is 10 ILV, you would revise 14 ILV. (just an example, might even have to be a smaller multiplier).

So it doesn't require you to own any to compete and receive rewards, but you would be rewarded for collecting and if you are motivated by the collection side of the game, you would actually be incentivised to go play some gauntlet as well. (and it doesn't mess with incentive for playing Leviathan). But.. I am not sure how far we are from having a “Collection album” like that.

buoyant stratus
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this ofc if you ranked high enough to reach the top of that week's leaderboard paying spots.

lilac lake
buoyant stratus
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and btw I've been saying the weekly leaderboard, and I know we have rewards in Beyond weekly but for arena I would go with a duration for these "subseasons" about 2-4 weeks with a rating soft reset.

lilac lake
tidal flume
# calm siren What if the incentives need to be 3x the additional profit gained from it?

That's a problem every $-incentive has if isolated in 1 system i feel.
If there's for example only the system that gets proposed in here, everybody calculates aswell if it's worth owning assets to hopefully get those rewards if one is good enough to get to the rankings to be eligible for those rewards.
I think the goal should be to use them as onboarding tool as originally intended to hook them so they also pay for stuff just out of pure fun. (if this is not happening at some point, incentives will always be a net loss for the IP)

In my opinion for F2P/ranked;

  • try out how tournaments work if they get incentivized with ILV to hook some of them. Could also try to reward Land. (i think there should be 20ish lands somewhere in the dust which got set aside at landsale for that reason.)
  • create a seasonal progression system where one can unlock accountbound rewards like cosmetics, some shards, a free s1 run, a standard disk etc. while just playing arena.
  • I would stay away from gating anything in any f2p mode with assets or whatever. Majority of those people who would buy those assets either do it calculated for a net profit, would play leviathan anyways or are turned off just by the thought of having to buy stuff to get some cool things rewarded.

In leviathan;

  • try out ILV for tournaments + leaderboards
  • Same progression system as f2p but slightly better/cooler rewards

A similar system as beyond should exist for Illuvials and at some point even one IP wide, where assets/progress of all games matter.
If you can fill out collections of Illuvials/raid trophies/tournament trophies/leaderboard trophies etc. and compare yourself with other collections can be a nice kick off for many people
I would also try to cross incentivize, like for example do overworld hunts/raids as entry tickets for tournaments or seasonal multiplier for a collection leaderboard. Basically give people a goal to work towards to and reward them stuff they can flex with.

daring hill
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In my opinion in the beginning we need to keep things simple and have 2 competitive modes:

  • F2P Gauntlet ranked
  • Leviathan+ranked combined for Ascendant.

Just these 2 for the beginning. Gauntlet is really not suited that well for Leviathan, not initially at least. Besides how many illuvials you need to own, you also have to level them up, and that takes a ton of time. Then imagine you have a few good stat illuvials that are fully leveled up, you have to rely on rng to get them, and other people not contesting you for them. That would be frustrating.

Ascendant would be the perfect mode for Leviathan for starters, as it only requires you to have 1-2 viable teams at hand, which you can pull on demand.

Eventually as seasons progress and people start to fill in their collections with a wider ranges of strong illuvials, we can patch in Gauntlet Leviathan in (6-12 months after season 1 starts for example).

That way initially for the queue UI we can have:

  1. F2P Gauntlet ranked
  2. Leviathan Ascendant (ownership)
  3. Custom games (Survival, Ascendant, casual Gauntlet as 1/8 open lobby games, that you can invite people to and the rest are filled with bots, for practice).

Leaderboard rewards would be the best for onboarding, but they have a problem of being exploitable by multi accounting. So we either need to include ownership as a some sort of unlocking mechanism for higher rewards, or do kyc which no one wants.

buoyant stratus
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I'm changing my vote to an upvote since this proposal version is broad enough that it gives @calm siren enough room to implement the best system he can possibly envision.

tardy cosmos
# calm siren This other discussion so far applies to both current and your model, what extra ...

To this again btw, a big difference between leviathan and specific versions of the here proposed would be, that leviathan always is focused on high stat/level Illuvials and isn´t very flexible.
So unless you want to consider balance adjustments to force people to play/buy/level/farm different Illuvials than they currently use, you might have to "sabotage" the game itself to some extent to force different metas than reward efficient gameplay/comps.
Leviathan is more exploitable in that sense as well, that players can collude and type what comps they want to play, people do that in TFT as well, with just rating on the line, so no one else buys the same Illuvials, making needing everything less relevant unless it is very top heavy rewards wise. Top heavy certainly does increase the chance of exploits around matchfixing in various ways though compared to flatter rewards.
People can also in theory forever play with their Illuvials unless they aren´t allowed to be played/balance-wise unplayable.
If valid meta-strategies evolve around Tier 1-3 Illuvials (Stage 3s?), the demand for Tier 5 Illuvials, which if I remember correctly are the cost point of a full collection might not be increased a lot.
(obv some assumptions on if players behave more towards reward efficiency than organic gameplay if rewards and cost benefit calculations wouldn´t exist, but those are risk points, that could go wrong in especially the leviathan model)

Leviathan also likely can´t be balanced for the majority of players, as they don´t use the same assets, which should make it maybe not impossible, but harder to fine tune incentive systems.

Most versions of how to apply the here proposed would lift those potential (imo likely, but yeah assumption) issues, as at a new Set release you could shift rewards to new Illuvials, or during a Set you could have waves of rewards, making people not "get away" with budget rewards optimized options.
You can also focus game balance on purely game balance without rewards in the back of your mind, as maybe some balance could mess with the incentive system in a negative way.

This is less on the exploit side, but think I it is a good example of impossible to exploit in a sense of spending less than you earn, that´s doable with the proposed system.
Applying it to more than Illuvials would allow upfront cost+ gameplay options to get an item cheaper, similar to what battlepasses do, but for specific cosmetics people can choose.

e.g. new battleboard for 30$ every 2 month, daily top 4 during these 2 months with newest battleboard gives 0.20$ in rewards, if someone did top 4 every day give an extra big reward.

This could generate a relevant increase in DAU and would be a somewhat gamefied version of rewards in terms of daily quest kinda setup, compared to #leaderboard or placement based ones as well, which feel less like daily quests, more like bigger harder to obtain goals.

Now we´d have to make an educated guess on if and by how much this could increase DAU, as an increase in those makes most extraction/exploit options harder to pull off.

(To be fair to the example here a relevant variable would be how much opportunity cost is lost via these rewards, similar how it is with Illuvials)

In the end for both system to be as little exploitable as possible, the base the amount of rewards would have to be based on something like money spend to mint Illuvials or in Gauntlet (Cosmetics) in general.

The problem of Leviathan assets being likely usable for rewards for a long time period or forever even would persist though, as I understand that a new Set would likely not replace every Illuvial in Gauntlet e.g., while with other systems that could be avoided.
In the proposed System the risk of paying more rewards than people spend could at least be reduced to 0, which seems very hard in the Leviathan Model.

tough river
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I refrained from voting on this proposal last time because I felt that I should leave it to people who have more gaming experience than I do to make this decision.

However, I am down voting this time because I am not convinced on two issues:

  1. That Illuvium can make enough money off of cosmetics, at least at this stage, to not only keep the lights on but also reward everyone for owning Illuvials, land, Illuvitars etc.
  2. That this is needed when there is already a free to play version of Illuvium. If people can't (or don't want to) whale they can stick to Arena.

You are far more knowledgeable about gaming than I am Viper, so I feel like I could be mistaken voting against this, but I don't want to change the entire economic model before we have even given it a proper try out.

surreal solstice
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Posting this on behalf of @urban hedge who had posted this in General Chat earlier:

buoyant stratus
# tough river I refrained from voting on this proposal last time because I felt that I should ...

I'm not particularly sold on the wording of this proposal but this version is much more generic than the previous one.

I'm also worried this IIP can open a can of worms but for now I'm trusting Perry to see what he delivers to us.

This has the potential to be a very good IIP, if for example, is used to set a reward bonus % to the ILV leaderboard rewards based on the illuvials finish for both arena modes. This would not only make ownership a thing in the normal mode, as it would increase the value of holos and dark holos, giving them a proper meaning besides just the aesthetics, while also boosting the value of low stat illuvials.

Here's an example:
Imagine I finish in 1st place in the arena season and I get let's say 100 ILV prize.

  • If all the arena games I played that season were played using only free illuvials then my actual rewards would be 50 ILV or even 0 ILV (a 50-100% negative multiplier). Depending on how aggressive we wanna enforce ownership.

  • If I played with my own illuvials but all of the illuvials had colour finish I get the 100 ILV.

  • If I only played with holo illuvials I would get a 2x multiplier, so 200 ILV.

  • If I only played with dark holo illuvials I would get a 3x multiplier, so 300 ILV.

  • If I played with 50% colour and 50% holo illuvials then I would get 150 ILV.

You also have the caveat for the Leviathan mode that this would add an extra layer of strategy to whether you wanna play with your best stat illuvials or with your best finish illuvials.

daring hill
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I think some misunderstanding is in place here, could be on my side, I'm part of the 17 upvotes but I'm not in favor of removing Leviathan, and I believe most of the people who thumbed up aren't either. Removing Leviathan and using the illuvials only as a reward incentive or cosmetics sounds dumb to me. That being said we do need a system that bridges f2p and Leviathan and that's what I believe I'm upvoting @urban hedge

charred adder
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Exactly. The proposal is very abstract, which can cause some misunderstandings.

My main issue with the previous proposal was that the wording implied removing Leviathan and would cause issues.

This new proposal instead is abstract, leaving all implementation details to the Illuvium Devs. The only thing it recommends doing, is rewarding ownership of assets.

My expectations of the devs implementation would be the following:
You retain Leviathan, but the professional players at the top of the F2P leaderboards would be unable to extract significant amounts of money without investing some money into the ecosystem themselves. To me this is a safeguard for future extraction type players and a logical step for the players to get involved in the ecosystem.

Imaginative numbers to gain a feel for my expectations, but it is up to the devs of course: If F2P non-owners rank first in a major tournament, they could win 100-500$ without investments. But if they hold 60$ worth of illuvials they would get 1500$ instead.

If the first position, with an investment cost of 60$ is enticing enough, it will cause not just the top 1 player, but a majority of participating players to invest at least those 60$ to have a shot at obtaining the full prize. In a 128 player tournament that would be maximum of 7000$~ investment and so a 5000$ prizepool for the top 16 could be easily justified for F2P. If none of the winners had bought anything, then the rewards would come down to say 1300$ which isnt a heavy burden on the Illuvium treasury.

But now you have some eager people with a 60$ investment, who then aim to upgrade their holdings. After all they won 1500$, they know the game, and are ready to jump into Leviathan. For them it is a relatively low barrier to put 100$ into their assets after the tournament and upgrade 5 illuvials to have max stats. They slowly prepare for a leviathan arena tournament

People who never owned assets in the first place would be more hesitant to dive deeper.

Now maybe the model i thought up isnt feasible. I make a number of assumptions based on expected investments etc. The team could likely come up with better and more data-backed implementation which I will defer the final decisions to. This is also what viper states in his proposal; it should be at Labs' discretion when to apply these systems and to which part of any game.

In the end, Labs could also never apply these systems to any part of the game. But having the recommendation in this proposal here, sparks a line of thinking that may benefit the DAO.

daring hill
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There are so many ways we can do it. Besides using the 1mil reward tokens allocation, part of the overall revenue can be included in the ownership multiplier bonus too (certain % of the revdis will go to this pool, 1-5%). Yes token holders will get a slight decrease on their revdis once again, but if anyone wants juicy revdis eventually, we need to get there first. If the revenue starts going parabolic, the % can always be reduced, to match the competitive needs at the time

We can also ideally add/include different crafting resources that add-on additional qualities to weapons, armors, evolve illuvials in some way, or similar type of mechanics that are in demand and earned through gameplay. And the economy being real money based, these rare crafting items will improve things with real monetary value, which brings value to them by itself.

Then you include these items as part of the leaderboard rewards. The rarity of them can depend on how powerful of an effect they have (we can play around with alot of stuff here), and then the rarest ones will go to the highest leaderboard bracket, which also has the least amount of players in. That way we can print rewards with monetary value out of thin air, we just need the content around it.

Ontop of that we can always include other cosmetics, skins, battleboard, emotes, etc within the rewards, we are have great artists at hand already.

There are several ways how the ownership incentive system can be built so it's good labs will have the freedom to choose the best one, if this one passes.

buoyant stratus
charred adder
daring hill
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I also think Leviathan needs differentiate to Gauntlet with more than just stats. With drone runs and hopefully constantly increasing playerbase, besides the initial spike in demand, good stats & perfect illuvials will become more and more accessible to the point most people will have them (hopefully we reach that part). At which point Leviathan will pretty much turn to the F2P Gauntlet. Yes it won't be an exact 1:1 copy, as different illuvials will scale differently with the bonus stats, but the gameplay will be exactly the same, only the meta will be somewhat different. And that can eventually get stale and blurr the line between the 2 modes.

And that's where we can get creative, while keeping the esport ranked mode purely competitive.

daring hill
tough river
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OK guys, be patient with me as I have had no sleep this week and my brain I think is working at about 1/4 capacity.
Voting yes would not get rid of Leviathan.
Voting yes would mean we give the team the go ahead to reward those who own various Illuvium assets when they play (and I assume do well) in F2P Gauntlet mode.

Therefore, owning Illuvials would still give a game playing advantage in Leviathan but would give no game playing advantage in Gauntlet. Which is what we have now. Meaning, the only change is to pay people with either ILV, or cosmetics for owning things, kind of like we do in Beyond.

Do I understand this correctly?

As a side note, something that came to mind about this, would rentals of Illuvials make someone eligible for rewards? Thinking of Polemos rental system. Someone like me who wants to play OW but not Arena can supply Illuvials for someone who wants to play Leviathan but not OW. It is good for both games to have this system.

buoyant stratus
analog pewter
#

illuvium Beyond already takes this approach with the points rewards system. I was under the impression that a Pokédex like system was being developed and if so that could be used for gauntlet/OW/MMO lite to give players rewards based on their collection and XP gained akin to Beyond and the XP milestones.

daring hill
analog pewter
green zealot
# daring hill It shouldn't be rewards just for owning stuff though, should be tied to gameplay...

I always thought it should be an additive multiplier, based off percentage of your collection compared to total collection, to rewards. So if you own 50 percent of the collection you would get a 1.5 multiplier to your rewards earned thru gameplay. Only problem with this is base rewards what have to be:

a) variable, meaning it can't be a set amount announced
b) half of all rewards, allows for a set amount announced, and the max multiplier being the other half since max is 2x. this would mean anyone without a 2x multiplier tho would have rewards that would go back into the reward pool

tardy cosmos
# tough river OK guys, be patient with me as I have had no sleep this week and my brain I thin...

I talked to couple people about the base idea of "combine gameplay+player actions in games into rewards in some correlation to what NFTs they own", there are lots of different approaches possible.

I think it should be something organic, that feels like completing a quest in the game, this could be helpful for gameplay and balance then as well, to produce more variance in what everyone wants to play if a balance patch messes up and everyone wants the same team every game e.g.

Overall the most scary thing for me from investor pov would be if DAO has to raise capital and current model didn´t produce revenue or other good metrics at that point, so thinking about what if the current model won´t produce those results already is a valuable hedge in my mind.

daring hill
# green zealot I always thought it should be an additive multiplier, based off percentage of yo...

Many ways it can be implemented, it needs to be fully brainstormed in order to minimize possibilities for abusing the system without reducing the player experience.

Personally I think the multiplier should not take into account just a collection and how far it's completed, but stats and levels too. Besides needing to trigger stable revenue on a monthly basis, that can also act as a bridge towards Leviathan, as trying to build a collection for that from the get go feels overwhelming, and this is one way how it can be eased in.

Then I think we need to keep it simple. Set a certain amount of tokens for each league and division, for example

Silver 5 - 0.5 tokens
Silver 4 - 0.6 tokens
Silver 3 - 0.7 tokens
Silver 2 - 0.8 tokens
Silver 1 - 0.9 tokens
Gold 5 - 1.0 tokens

Imo it's important for the players to know in advance which division qualifies them for what rewards per season.

Then if we have a clean collection/repository/whatever the name UI, that takes into account ownership of illuvials, their stats and levels, culminating into a final power level of your collection, you build the multiplier based on that power level

The exact numbers need to be properly studied and thought of based on data, which only labs have. But the idea is for someone with a full collection of decent illuvials that ends up in Gold bracket, to receive similar rewards as a player one full league ahead (Plat) that is fully f2p.

Finally we apply the multiplier to whatever reward the player earned based on their leaderboard placement. If the power level of your collection gives you a 1.75x multiplier, the example earlier with the gold 5 player would net them 1.75 tokens, while the f2p player only gets 1.

This is just a quick example of course, the exact numbers should be carefully thought through. It can also be similar to your b) example.

But the end goal and result is clear:

  1. players grinding the leaderboards daily to reach the best placement they can, which will bring many benefits by itself like fast queue times and a more lively player experience. Unlike beyond, players will need to grind the game in order to reap the benefit of their collection
  2. another reason to own illuvials, and increased revenue
  3. bridge the gap between f2p and Leviathan
green zealot
daring hill
# green zealot I don't think stats and levels need included in this calculation because it is o...

Not using stats and levels is losing some of the biggest benefits to the dao such as:

  1. only the floor illuvials will be swept to fill in a collection for 20 bucks and then you reap bonus rewards for good. The additional revenue this will bring is minimal

  2. won't act as a bridge between f2p and Levi, as people will mostly populate their collection with the cheapest options, reducing or not maximizing the potential playerbase of Leviathan

  3. won't act as a blocker for multi accounting, as that will easily be bypassed by filling a collection with floor illuvials

It will take a while for most players to saturate their collection to be battle ready for Leviathan, most will not be ready for it within the first several seasons. If it is a concern, Leviathan token rewards can just start from a higher bracket, to limit the weak collections out of it and avoid the double rewards for most. And if we ever reach a point where most of our playerbase already has leviathan ready collections and the IP is successful, the token/monetary rewards for the f2p can go and they only remain for Levi.

green zealot
#

I personally don't think Leviathan is ever going to take off but until that hypothesis is proven true the Leviathan rewards should outpace the f2p even with the ownership multiplier. There are way too many NFTs people need and the progression system is a broken one. If we had a system that seen us having an incremental progression system then I could get behind it but right now all it is gambling on gambling. You have some agency with fusing for stage 2 or 3 but stage 1 relying on the random number generator for progression is an awful system.

green zealot
daring hill
#

The incremental system for progression you have in mind is exactly this one. Players will slowly improve their collections because they enjoy the game and would like a higher multiplier for their rewards. Then eventually it will reach a level which is suitable for leviathan. With drone runs coming in, we would probably have a much larger supply of more accessible good stat illuvials so it won't be as much of a chore.

It's a bit late to change how illuvials and their stats are minted since we have millions already. But ideally the drop rate would be much less so the illuvial inflation would be much lower. Then they would all start with base level stats, and they would be improved through gameplay. The problem with that of course is our assets are nfts with monetary value so that would be botted to oblivion.

daring hill
green zealot
# daring hill The incremental system for progression you have in mind is exactly this one. Pla...

Why would they spend money on a better illuvial when they reap no benefit from it? Any conversation I have ever had on the subject of Leviathan is lead by this fantasy notion that everyone wants to experience this endgame TFT mode. Most games are lucky to have 5 to 10% of their playerbase ever reaching an endgame status and that's when it's free or a just a monthly sub. Now you are going to compound that issue by adding in massive P2W. It just isn't realistic.

daring hill
# green zealot Why would they spend money on a better illuvial when they reap no benefit from i...

I feel we are going in circles. They would initially go for better illuvials (stats, XP) to go for the higher multiplier. The game needs to be in a good enough state so that the rewards are not the only reason people play. But if you spend 100$ to improve your collection, and you get 20-25$ bonus rewards per season, and you enjoy the game and would play/grind it anyway, you will eventually break even or profit, depending on your skill level and how far you can climb the leaderboards.

Do that over a certain timeline and your collection would eventually be Leviathan ready. At that point, why not?

That's the thing I also don't believe Leviathan in it's current format will trigger enough ownership incentive, so this is one way how we can ease the players into it without them even realizing it.

tough river
#

I thought that Leviathan would be where the prize money was and if you wanted to compete you would need to either own, buy or rent Illuvials. I never thought it was meant to be a place where people hung out to play and practice with friends. Ranked was for that. Of course that was when I thought Ranked would be using our Illuvials, before the whole Gauntlet thing.

I still think all of our tournaments should be held in Leviathan. Even now, we should be planting the seeds of what Leviathan can be. I think for larger prizes people should have to either own the Illuvials or pay a fee to enter to rent "average" Illuvials.

We can't give people money to play who are not putting money into Illuvium. It is not good for the balance sheet. Which I know is what you are trying to solve@tardy cosmos, as well as trying to drive incentives to spend more money.

Honestly, I don't like this proposal. However, I have changed to a thumbs up to go to the team and let them do what they need to do.

tardy cosmos
# tough river I thought that Leviathan would be where the prize money was and if you wanted to...

First did anything I ever said elude to give money to people who don´t put money in?

I believe I have always been very clear that the goal is that most people have to go net negative and spend for entertainment, not for earn money.
Now it is rather common in the space to give rebates (ranging from still spending more earning for most, to gain money for few usually) in forms of gameplay+time+upfront money investment= rewards, those rewards certainly can´t be higher than what was spend in upfront cost at least at some point, unless the company is a charity or scam in some form.

Even you here said again that leviathan connected to tournaments etc. should be an earning thing, this is the same fallacy I see often in this space, when in the end you pay more rewards than people spend.
If people are willing to lose money, because they have fun, then why are these rewards needed in the first place would be another question.
Currently Leviathan is a dead game mode e.g. compared to regular Gauntlet that does have few players.

Also if people play the game to earn rewards, they optimize their strategy for it and check roi options, if they can´t go positive, why play/spend? is the narrative for most in this space.

Further there are couple reasons why e-sports and tournaments are good marketing, lots of it evolves around it being something that the person watching can relate to, can mimic or can strive towards.
Games will be very different for 99.9% of players compared to what they will be watching though, as they won´t have maxed out collections and most will see those as unobtainable.
Making it questionable if these tournaments have a relevant enough marketing effect to me as well.

Also it seems tough when the narrative is about rewards and winning tournaments in a ownership game, as if you have too many players, lots of them won´t be able to profit anymore due to lack of skill, those would likely sell their assets to the new ones who are skilled enough to profit or rent them to someone who is.

This seems problematic to me, as you don´t necessarily increase the assets via this or incentive more people to get them from the DAO, be it Overworld or AI-Agents future things. They are incentivd to buy them off the ones who wants to exit/rent.
Thus I don´t understand how this realistically would be a relevant revenue increase in web3. In web2 people obv can´t sell accounts/assets easily, so new players would have to buy from the company.

tough river
# tardy cosmos First did anything I ever said elude to give money to people who don´t put money...

We have a disconnect in communication. I was attempting to say that you are trying to solve the issue so we are NOT giving money to people who are not putting money in.

Currently in our tournaments, theoretically people who don't own a single Illuvium asset can play and walk away with ILV. Since we are holding tournaments, I would like to see them moved to Leviathan. Why shouldn't people have to pay an entrance fee (in the form of own or rent), like they do for many other e-sports tournaments when there is a prize on the line?

Rental of Illuvials does increase revenue as you have someone like me farming OW, paying fuel to supply someone like you who can play in Leviathan and win. The trick is all in making it super easy for the someone like you to rent them. IAs for marketplace, that is why Illuvium takes a cut. Maybe the cut should be bigger.

Here's the thing. I think it is ridiculous that we have to pay people to play whether that be rewards for holding assets while they play for free or whether that be airdrops for running around OW. Illuvium is providing a product and paying people to play it. It's sad as the game should be the incentive. That's why I don't like your proposal. I see it as a similar thing of incentivizing in order to get players, but at least your idea is incentivizing for ownership and a variety of assets.

I know, it's the space. I just thought (maybe naively) that we were going to change the space. That's why I upvoted even though I don't like it.

tardy cosmos
#

sry for not getting the communication disconnect

One thing though, tournaments and e-sport and these things are usually marketing tools and in I´d say almost if not all the major big ones accessible with 0 or very low money spend in those games, also charging a fee isn´t a thing in the standard big e-sport tournaments. (some legal reasons for that as well obv)
Tournaments are mostly marketing, I am unable to think of a relevant example in ,video gaming, where people spend more to play in them than they make when talking about skilled players with an extraction mindset.

I also agree with not liking the idea of paying rewards to some extent.
You could also see that similar to how battle passes work in web2 though, as people pay an upfront then have to play the game, then get "rewarded" with lots of loot that would usually cost far more than the battle pass. Trying to mimic that, which has been a very successful monetization makes sense to me e.g.

#

The battle pass example is kinda a free market price finding on those items as well, as people with less time can spend more to obtain them, people with lots of time can spend less to obtain them.
The ones with less money but more time help the game by being very active players and making the experience for the ones who pay better as well. A pseudo marketing opportunity cost in this example so to say.

#

One could also argue if these rebate system maximize revenue, as some think they get a discount for playing and others who don´t care much about the discount pay more for the product.
Could have price-obtainable rewards= price you´d normally charge, but then the ones not getting rewards overpay.
Similar to how e.g. MC Donalds or Burger King have constant coupons and cheap options in their apps for people to use, but the ones who don´t care for the app or the daily coupon pay extra.

tough river
#

I don't know anything about tournaments. I just did a Brave search and listened to the AI when I was thinking about this whole issue and what we could do about it. According to it some e-sports are free, some are free but in game purchases help you do better, some are paid. Interesting information from you, thanks for the correction on that.

I think we have to be careful with how the rewards are coming off. The "when are you paying me to play?" people are short-term and do damage to the ethos of Illuvium if we are still trying to one day be accepted in Web2.

If they are like the fast food apps which are really more about getting exsisting customers to pay more than they normally would (they only think they are saving money) that is one thing - I mean Beyond has done that to me. I bought a turtle so I could complete the line and get an emote. kektalik

elder saffron
#

25 Upvotes have been obtained.

ICC will reach out to the Sponsor (Viper) to review changes prior to getting it out to a vote. 🗳️

Thank you to everybody actively participating in governance! 🔥

daring hill
#

Very disappointed in the voting of imc on this so far, especially @empty saddle

The reasoning behind it is so dumb and out of touch that it makes me feel the voting is based on some personal feelings against the OP or something like that cause it just makes no sense whatsoever.

empty saddle
daring hill
# empty saddle Welcome to your opinion. I don't think we need to rush into a proposal like this...

Wasn't that the idea, for labs to figure out their own way to implement it and use the recommendations inside the proposal, which are many, instead of forcing them into one?

You could have also voted for a revision. All that extra fluff you added against it doesn't make any sense and it's just wrong. I'm also willing to debate anyone here why that is.

If we had something like this + live gauntlet and leaderboards on launch, we wouldn't even need new dawn, the current setup could have been cruised for at least a few years (maybe besides the monetization). But no, let's jump from one thing to the other. Whatever man

tardy cosmos
#

Also why did you not say anything prior then?

Saying it is funny, when there was no input on it from you before seems very unfair and almost insulting as well.

tardy cosmos
# daring hill Wasn't that the idea, for labs to figure out their own way to implement it and u...

Yeah that was the idea, I do have personal believes on what would be good, I know some working at Labs also have ideas on how it could be done.
Had a very long and detailed version of these, but ICC didn´t like that 😅

Obv hard to suggest something detailed and specific, that could happen to align with planed or upcoming products but I guess to pass it now, we have to formulate something like

"Give daily rewards to players based on winning games in PvP and tie the amount to owning Illuvium assets"?
Maybe need to specify current assets to be used and how much ILV should be used on this total?

Feels like those are things IMC could be recommending or commenting on though, very disappointed how this whole process has turned out so far. Feels like it has been incredibly inefficient at the very least.

charred adder
# tardy cosmos Yeah that was the idea, I do have personal believes on what would be good, I kno...

I had been recommending to go for a structure in line with how a proposal should look;
Short summary, abstract, overview, rationale, Test cases.

But while discussing the topic with you, I understood how the community may not be fully equipped to think of a way to integrate a reward system based on ownership. With that in mind, I personally accepted the lack of structure and passed it to IMC to have them make the necessary changes. After mentioning how it wouldnt affect leviathan, IMC+Team would then be given free reign towards the implementation of the feature.

With 2 members voting for revisions, things are still going according to that plan! Imc+team + you, viper, may now work together to make a revised IIP that specifies a clean ownership-rewarding feature 😄

tardy cosmos
#

yeah fair, feels like a very slow process though

charred adder
# tardy cosmos yeah fair, feels like a very slow process though

I was talking to some professors on how to more accurately take into consideration more / all community member's insights. They asked me how much time i had and whether it was a year or less 🤣

In the case of governance, my current view is that all regulatory bodies simply take up time and have questionable results. It is up to the parties involved to revise and review each group's input and value provided to minimise "bureaucratic negligence" -is how ill call it. Thats why we now have DOGE in America 🤣

tardy cosmos
empty saddle
empty saddle
daring hill
# empty saddle I mostly denied it because I would rather see the current system run before maki...

This proposal enhances the current system and gives it a better fighting chance, especially if done through the album route. It doesn't negatively impact it in any way.

You keep bringing cosmetics, for some reason you view the illuvials as just cosmetics? Who is implying cosmetics and earning are the same thing, what the heck? Who even wants cosmetics (not skins) in gauntlet?

It was specified the rewards don't necessarily need to be only tokens, many other things can be included.

In a nutshell this proposal incentives people to:

Play OW (improve your collection)

Play Arena (cannot reap the rewards without playing the competitive modes, unlike beyond)

Increased revenue

Adds to illuvials' utility, besides Leviathan

It is literally guiding the players through the entire system, giving them purpose, progression system and a guideline on what to do. Should have been done on launch.

empty saddle
daring hill
buoyant stratus
tardy cosmos
#

Your rationale outside of this opinion here now of wanting to test the p2w TFT system first, which is the valid counter thesis, is mostly just weak/made up/doesn’t make sense.

tardy cosmos
# empty saddle The proposal used cosmetics as the rationale. It said that this system would cat...

This is never said anywhere.

You clearly have games that are build as true f2p games, and you can’t take a game and change monetization keep everything else the same, as games are build with monetization model in mind.
TFT is one of these true f2p games.
There are many features and various other things in those games that make them appealing but can’t integrate or has to make many trial and error adjustments before finding a way.
The proposal suggest to have the economic layer which is the reason for web3 period to be separate from the gameplay.

#

This system would cater to web3 way better than the current one, which seems like an easy observation looking at current user numbers.

#

Did you read any of the threads?
This isn’t the first time these points come up.

daring hill
#

I don't even know why we are comparing this proposal to the current system, as if it's one or the other. If done properly this only enhances the current one, they don't diminish each other, it's the opposite.

proper rain
# tardy cosmos You do realize that cosmetics are NFTs as well and that Kieran in the past said ...

I have said this in the past. And I still think this could be a very valid way to introduce ownership, but we’ve been burnt previously by having nfts in Arena and going to mainstream. I think we should at least test out the system we have come up with before making changes. A completely clean version with no nfts and then leviathan that has nfts and is somewhat pay-to-win. I want to stress here, you could very well be right that it doesnt make a difference whether having nfts or not. There is just something about being able to go to content creators and have them genuinely be able to say this game has no crypto elements.

Accepting as well that the emotes, drone blasts, battleboards are nfts in the f2p version, but I just worry when it becomes the actual characters does that push mainstream gamers away, or give people ammo to dismiss it immediately.

I'm not pretending to have the answer here. But we haven't tested either. So I feel like the sensible thing would be to test the system that is already built before assuming it won’t be good.

Totally respect you writing this up and pushing it forward @tardy cosmos

tardy cosmos
# proper rain I have said this in the past. And I still think this could be a very valid way t...

I think this is a reasonable position to hold, but it also seems very unrealistic to have a version of Gauntlet that is on par to TFT any time soon.
Currently it is at most similar to the TFT public beta release from 5 years ago.
Even if features are build in the next months, balance surely will also take a while especially if you add these standard TFT game mechanics.

With some version of this you´d at least have a hook for the people who play web3 games to reason to play Illuvium or speculate on assets value going up, current model and idea seems to lack any relevant amount of people believing in it, based on marketplace prices, volume and liquidity.

Also to note, I am upset about the poorly written reasoning and calling the IIP funny here, not about the fact someone voted decline, never expected this to pass but wanted to have a conversation about this now instead of once/if current model doesn´t deliver results.

buoyant stratus
#

@proper rain
if this is so: #📯〕council-chambers message
Then labs should launch the Arena normal mode without a single reward and only add rewards later to see if the game truly stands by itself or not. Do some marketing, pay some known TFT streamers to play and see what's the retention rate after that.

One thing I'm certain. If we launch a F2P game with rewards it's the "airdrop farmers" and not the web2 players that will come 100%. And if the game is also playable on mobile? It's gonna be bonkers.

daring hill
tidal flume
buoyant stratus
calm siren
#

Time and place for both accountbound and NFT