#Addressing accounts that only share negative messages

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

grand bronze
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After spending some time in some other game discords it's clear that having stricter rules around what constitutes constructive feedback leads to a healthier chat and a better experience for users, particularly new users.

Although unmoderated chat can be seen as a positive, my view, and the idea put forward here, is that acting to address the most egregious offenders will be a significant net positive.

There is precedent in our discord, several accounts were removed from Zero chat for constantly sharing negative views and negative opinions masked as fact. This was widely agreed to be a positive action.

I'm not advocating for strict rules against negative sentiment, such posts are often helpful. But accounts which only post negatives without the intent to drive positive change or which consistently present negative opinions as fact do not belong here.

UPDATE: Note that I made some small edits to the original post to replace banning with addressing (which could mean warnings, timeouts, etc).

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Banning accounts that only share negative messages

knotty eagle
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What does only negative means? In life? In last month? Who will decide who gets banned? Will this make people scared of sharing any negative feedback?

rancid crane
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LOL

grand bronze
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The title was deliberately simple to get the message across.

Actually implementing would need deliberation, but something like the way it was applied in Zero channel. I don't think it will be easy to define a reasonable set of rules but I think it will ultimately be beneficial.

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If a new person comes in and asks about the game and all they get is "it's a dead game with no hope of recovery" then surely that's not helpful for the DAO.

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The target wouldn't be negative feedback, criticism for the purposes of discussion is important. But there is a cohort of posters who aren't being negative with the intent to drive change but simply being negative for the 'thrill' of it. If someone believes there's a problem that is completely unrecoverable and wants to vent that what is the point of them posting that more than once?

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Anyway I don't have much to add, I've made my point. It's a challenging thing to address but I think it's worth discussing, even if the discussion results in no change.

rancid crane
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Should we also ban those who speak too well about the state of illuvium and lie about it just to get people onboard because it benefits their investment? Who chooses what is a "vent" and what it's not? How do you know people are doing it for a thrill or that it's legitimately their opinion? Is it wrong for people to express themselves if they genuinely believe their thoughts? This idea suggests plain censorship and will lead to a cult-like environment

grand bronze
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I agree it's a slippery slope and would need to be approached very cautiously. There are some things that are fairly concrete like "voicing opinion as fact" or even stronger "providing provably wrong information".

If someone says something provably wrong they could be warned, if they repeat it they could be temp banned, again and it could become permanent.

Venting the same thing a few times, okay. Repeating the same thing 10 times? 20 times? It seems you could draw a line in the sand somewhere.

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Maybe it's just all too hard.

buoyant dove
grand bronze
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Also we do clearly have rules that promote positive behaviour over negative. You can compliment someone directly you cannot attack them directly. I don't think such rules are bad... this is a DAO not the free press.

But that said... yes we should ban people who consistenly lie about Illuvium in a positive way too. As Dr S posted above that IS against the rules already.

grand bronze
native escarp
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Witch hunt)

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If the team will remain silent as always, create incomprehensible things based on feelings and fears, write about the tournament and not hold it, destroy investors, do one thing today and another tomorrow, then how can I speak positively about this?)

Listen to the community, fulfill the promises you made, show how you value players and investors - and there will be almost no negative ones

glacial sequoia
buoyant dove
native escarp
buoyant dove
# native escarp Witch hunt)

witch hunt is a strong word 🙃
I think it's reasonable feedback and one should try to see it objectively.
In general, people with behaviour like Johnny describes can be damaging to a project and should be sanctioned.
It's always a fine line for such rules, even if you take AI at help for scanning those specific posts.

I would say in general everybody should feel welcomed to post rational feedback even if it is negative and i feel ILV discord can be seen as a place where this can be lived.... and Johnny doesn't want to shut that aspect down as he states above.

native escarp
split adder
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You can block people on discord. Very simple and effective. I suggest you try it instead of wanting even more of an echo chamber.

knotty eagle
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removing someonne from the discord would just make half of them to create a new account and spread negativity even more... and also spread more negativity on x and such

glacial sequoia
buoyant dove
rancid crane
buoyant dove
rancid crane
grand bronze
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I'll change it to 'addressing' if that's a sticking point. Maybe just a little more strict enforcement of rules and a more liberal use of warnings would make all the difference.

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Adrssing accounts that only share negative messages

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Adressing accounts that only share negative messages

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Let me add that I was about 6 schooners deep 🍺 when I wrote the original post. It makes a surprising amount of sense despite that, but the original wording was probably (definitely) over stepping. I've made a few edits to temper it a little, without changing the meaning too much.

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Addressing accounts that only share negative messages

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In any case looks like its not going to fly either way... 💁‍♂️

blazing pier
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We have to wonder why so many negative messages? Too much disappointment, too much investment, too much expectation.

grand bronze
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For sure, but other gaming chats which have delivered far less still seem pretty positive 🤷‍♂️

blazing pier
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In the background we want the game to succeed so much

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@grand bronze Besides, you weren't supposed to offer us PvP in Illuvium Zero.🔥

split adder
mild pagoda
# grand bronze For sure, but other gaming chats which have delivered far less still seem pretty...

It's probably because those other games consistently deliver the right things from the start even if it's far less. Illuvium is going through a major game design crisis because of how many things they got wrong, so it's understandable why people would have more negative sentiment on discord. I, myself, literally hopped on discord shortly after open beta release, farmed up points just to chat on the feedback channel and express how disappointing the big release was. I never had to or feel the need to do that with any other Web3 games I've tried.

stray pecan
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I'm all for freedom of speech even if things someone says are negative in the eyes of another. We cant ban people for having different point of views or visions.

grand bronze
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We can and we do. If you repeatedly directly insult someone, even if your insults are true, you will get banned.

But I'd be happy if this simply resulted in a little more active enforcement of the rules around spreading misinformation.

Maybe being a little tighter about the need to ensure opinions are not stated as fact.

thorn rivet
# split adder You can block people on discord. Very simple and effective. I suggest you try it...

This is ofc a bit off. Yes u wont see the comments, but new people will, i dont think this is brought up from a personal pov. Anyone new can find the most negative and almost toxic stances on this project after just a few clics. Positivity has been made place with pure cynisism with some, it will likely never come back to the positive due to the way things have went. Which is too bad, but an almost impossible task for us as a dao to win those people back. Yet they choose and we do too, to let everyone here remain speaking without real bounds. Influencing sentiment to those who are new gladfully shitting on the hard work that is still put in by Cc's as well as the mods and active comminity that still here. If people care about it at all (their investment too) we should consider how we want to govern this part of our open communication channels. Especially if crypto comes into a bit of light again, and a wave of new people join. Id like them to have a fair chance of forming their own ideas and opinions. Anyway, i dont have the answer. But itd be good to have a discussion about it 🙂

mild pagoda
# thorn rivet This is ofc a bit off. Yes u wont see the comments, but new people will, i dont ...

I think it's wrong to artificially direct narratives in any particular way. The negative sentiments are just as valid as the positive ones because they are a reflection of the actual state of the game.

If you want to increase the positive sentiment in discord and win over new players, do it by getting the game right. Anyone who is just spreading negative sentiment when the game is actually good will immediately get exposed as trolls.

glacial sequoia
# mild pagoda I think it's wrong to artificially direct narratives in any particular way. The ...

I think we are far too tolerant in a lot of cases.
At the end of the day Discord is not a beacon of free speech, it's a marketing tool.
We need to try out best to provide a positive environment where people are comfortable providing feedback, constructive criticism and are happy participating in the community/governance process.
As much as you are in favour of free speech, i'm pretty sure if someone comes round to your house everyday talking s**t, your throwing them off your property. We are in illuviums house here, why should it be any different.

mild pagoda
# glacial sequoia I think we are far too tolerant in a lot of cases. At the end of the day Discor...

Because sometimes that person talking s**t could be right, and maybe I'm the *sshole for trying to shut them down. Unless you're talking about blatant disrespect and rule breaking, negative sentiment shouldn't be an issue.

The game should speak for itself. If people are relying on discord to be the final arbiter for their opinion on the game instead of just playing and forming their own opinions, then that's their problem.

thorn rivet
# mild pagoda I think it's wrong to artificially direct narratives in any particular way. The ...

But that only works if you could with certainty rely on the people who are spreading a negative sentiment are still genuine about it.
In our special project over here, it can be very plausible that someone looking to benefit just themselves would serve very well with spreading negativity.
This is a very dangerous tightrope to walk on.
One between allowing for people to be open about their opinion vs. people actively trying to be negative about everything that is being done.
Or just because they like LARPing and mocking people.

You can simplify it by saying - Ahh you just need to build a better game! Then they go away..- yeah.. its not like we aren't trying?
But there is a real risk that overly negative sentiment drives people away before they can even come to their own conclusion of 'this game needs more work' or 'this game is quite fun' .

Negative voices are naturally received louder than the positive ones.

And to reply to your latest - Its not their problem - its our problem.
Ultimately - Our discord is our way of communicating with the community, if it gets to a point where we could see how it constantly influences public opinion through a constant stream of negative or false news we probably should action on it.
Discord is a tool - and we should try to make good use of it, for the project and the community.

mild pagoda
# thorn rivet But that only works if you could with certainty rely on the people who are sprea...

I understand the concern regarding discord getting to the point where it pushes people away in an unjust way. I just don't want to see it tipped so far in the opposite direction where I can't trust what's on discord anymore because it's only positive news and nothing is ever wrong. I want the truth more than anything.

I would much prefer if there were more updates and news of progress rather than squelching opinions. Even for hype content from other popular games like promotional videos or infographics, there's always going to be the few trolls who only have negative things to say, but they're very easy to spot and disregard. However, it's hard to make a clear case that something is bad when you can see with your own eyes there's something cool in the works.

buoyant dove
# mild pagoda I understand the concern regarding discord getting to the point where it pushes ...

That won't happen.
As rogier pointed out, discord is a tool for the team communicating with the community, but also vice versa.
With the big advantage that you have honest constructive feedback is it positive or negative.
But if you (team member, OG or newcomer) have to take time to search valuable information between all troll comments or pointless negativity etc. the platform offers no advantage anymore for the team but also for the community.
Discord being the tool it should be for both team and community is just achieved with setting up rules as the team did for communicating on this platform, which should be assured through moderating the discord.

mild pagoda
thorn rivet
split adder
buoyant dove
split adder
buoyant dove
grand bronze
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The point was never to stop everyone who posts negative feedback. Feedback is good.

The point is to stop people who are trolling. Who only post the same negative view point over and over again, often so much that it can drown out real content (either positive or negative). Often opinion written in a way that it reads like fact, particularly to newcomers.

I mean to say its "Heavily Implied" when the original post literally contains the opposite 🤷‍♂️

image.png
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Later in the chat I also was clear that I didn't want to stop people venting, spitting out the same message once or twice, even if it isn't feedback that is actionable... sometimes people need to vent, fair enough. But repeating the same thing over and over again doesn't help.

quick vessel
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What about creating a second Discord server specifically for gamers, separate from this investor-focused one? This new server could be heavily moderated to ensure a positive and welcoming environment, making it more suitable for onboarding web2 gamers.

I understand that web3 enthusiasts value their free speech and want the freedom to express themselves openly.
Separating these two audiences might be the best approach to ensure that new players entering the ecosystem aren’t overwhelmed by the web3 space. This is similar to the idea of keeping web3 features, such as wallets, somewhat separate from a casual web2 player’s experience when they first join the game.

rancid crane
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Lol please try that and see how it goes I beg you

opaque delta
# grand bronze For sure, but other gaming chats which have delivered far less still seem pretty...

I think it's too hard in this community because the standard was set a long time ago. The only way I see is to encourage discussion, and when someone is continuing to attack rather than give clear reasoning, ask them to create feedback with a detailed account of their issues and possible solutions.
We have rules around discussion in communities so we can actually debate, robustly even, our points of view without resorting to nonsensical arguments and debasing of the other person.
The idea of freedom of speech runs high here. Yet most people don't even know what that means.
I'd probably fall into the over positive category, yet I do think a lot of decisions have been made due to overwhelming negativity and people believing they are right then using their influence to sway opinions.
I think looking at it from the avenue of group behaviour as separate from the individual may help.
It's well studied and there are lots of academic articles on how sensational negative feedback can lead to mass ideology without any facts. The same can be said for positive feedback.
Some things I think were not handled well, like the launch that wasn't a launch.
People were not informed enough about this. I think the community would have understood if we had been told it was a soft launch.
So maybe in this tlrd (?) it's a combination of community and the team.
There are solutions though. You just have to find them.

opaque delta
opaque delta
quick vessel
opaque delta
quick vessel
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We have many investors who are currently down. Instead of selling, they have become community members, often exhibiting a more negative sentiment. Additionally, in Web3—behaviour such as trolling, incitement, passive-aggressiveness, and outright aggressive actions—is frequently labeled as "free speech." There are also individuals who consistently attempt to steer the narrative to benefit their own holdings or to extract the maximum amount of money in the short term. These niche demographics can be very damaging to onboarding any Web2 gamers we aim to attract. If these new users join the Illuvium game's Discord server, they are highly likely to encounter negative interactions, which I believe can significantly harm their onboarding experience.

torn torrent
quick vessel
quick vessel
torn torrent
# quick vessel i know what you mean, but the **discord **servers of web2 games are **heavily **...

Personally I'm not a big fan of these discords, such as Gala or Axie for example. It creates a fake positive and dishonest environment, detached from reality. Any person with double digit brain cells can detect this fakeness. Also I believe the moonboi mentality is just as toxic as the intentional fudders, for the same reason, it creates a false sense of reality and once it hits you, it hits you hard. We have quite a few examples of post launch depressed moonbois gone missing. Both types are as toxic in my opinion, so if you are going to moderate one group, you should do the same for the other. In my opinion it's best to create an environment as close to reality as possible, but that's a very thin line to thread, will be quite difficult to do so. My 2 cents on this topic.

quick vessel
# torn torrent Personally I'm not a big fan of these discords, such as Gala or Axie for example...

i think for a discord server that's strictly about the games, gameplay and nothing else, it is ok to have a strictly positive bubble. of course honest feedback etc. is important but that can be handled thru the ingame report feature.

for the investor web3 discord, this right here, i agree that it should not be fake but just eliminate the bad actors.

if it's better to moderate this discord stricter, or create a second one to cater to both audiences is a difficult decision, but i think what we have right now is not ideal for the project

torn torrent
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You can ban @glad fiber that dweeb got annoying long time ago

buoyant dove
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lets try to keep it constructive in here

glad fiber
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People are always free to block, or simply stay out of token if they only want to hear "ILV to da moon".

buoyant dove
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and also related to the topic

torn torrent
glad fiber
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Regarding the topic.
I feel that blatant false statements and personal attacks deserve a warning with an explanation for the warning so the same activity can be prevented. If that can't be respected then leading to a ban is fair.

However, if banning for "being negative", in the sense that someone is bearish, then it should also be a bannable offense for "being too positive".

A good example is runway talks.

If someone says "the runway is only 2 months, you should all sell your tokens for this scam project", then it fulfills the warning requirements since the runway is verifiably more than 2 months, and technically it isn't a scam.

However, if someone says "The runway is only 9 months based on spend rate, and there is not enough revenue to keep us from going bankrupt, it may be too late", then that is a perfectly fair analysis based on verifiable information, and just because it is negative doesn't mean it is any less valid.

Negativity leading to a ban is honestly the wokest, safest space, corny thing I can imagine. Banning should be based on personal attacks, threats, scam attempts etc.

split adder
sharp maple
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I'm saying no to wokeness "my feelings get hurt because you're not bullish enough"

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if u dnf want toxic behaviour then maybe try pokemon

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we have mods and CM, please stop telling them how to do their job

quick vessel
glad fiber
quick vessel
sharp maple
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go ahead propose the IIP

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until then please stop telling me how to think or what to write lol

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and no im not telling community members what they are allowed to discuss, thats up to the mods

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lenient and strict are subjective. for you it's lenient, for me it's fine.
if u dnt like it you can propose the IIP and be the ethic council or you can apply for the CM role

buoyant dove
sharp maple
quick vessel
# sharp maple u wanted to form ethics council who rules over decisions like bans and decides w...

The Ethics Council wouldn't replace moderators or the community manager. Instead, its role would be to decide where to draw the line in situations where the exact rules don't offer clear guidance. Examples of this might include behaviors like inciting conflict, spreading lies, or repeating the same points over and over even after they've already been addressed.

You’d know better than anyone how some people are able to maneuver around the rules and still act in bad faith. Here are a few ways this can happen:

  1. Subtle Provocation: Making comments that clearly provoke others without being explicitly offensive or rule-breaking. This often flies under the radar but creates tension in the community.

  2. Feigning Innocence: Acting as though they don’t understand the rules or the consequences of their actions while continuing disruptive behavior.

  3. Manipulative Language: Using coded language, sarcasm, or innuendos to skirt rules while pushing boundaries.

  4. Playing the Victim: Turning any form of moderation into an attack on their “freedom of speech” or pretending they’re being unfairly targeted to gain sympathy from others.

  5. Flooding with Repetition: Rehashing the same arguments or concerns after they’ve already been addressed, exhausting moderators and making progress harder for everyone.

When community members raise concerns about these tactics, dismissing them by saying, "Stop telling the mods how to do their job," is a troubling response—especially coming from a council member. Your role should be to hear the concerns of the community, not to shut them down or discourage feedback.

If the community feels ignored or silenced, it creates resentment and worsens the very problems we're trying to solve.

torn torrent
# quick vessel The Ethics Council wouldn't replace moderators or the community manager. Instead...

Any member has the godlike powers of blocking anyone who they don't like, disagree with or feel they have malicious or trolling intent which they dislike.

Furthermore you have to realize alot of the community is non native English speakers, there is a language barrier. Then you also have to register that different cultures around the world express their thoughts and feelings differently, some more aggressive some more passive, somewhere certain levels of sarcasm are acceptable, other places different levels. And so on and so forth.

Who would you appoint to moderate the discord taking into account everything? You would need Jordan Peterson to properly filter all that as I don't believe anyone here is qualified for it.

sharp maple
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1 - 4
like i said we dnt need wokeness-feelings-get-hurt.

paz
you have been repeatedly complaining about anon.
you made a video about it too.
grow up and get over it

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you were trying to oust anon

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and took his voice
nice try trying to turn this against me lol

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if this is how strategy to get the main council next epoch, best of luck, im sure you'll get in

sharp maple
buoyant dove
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lets try to stay on topic here

sharp maple
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yup

sharp maple
torn torrent
sharp maple
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based on my experience the decision to mute/ban is not black and white as written in #✍〕rules .
there are other considerations too. there are subjectivity.
thats why for me the best way is to trust the mods and team for discord moderation

quick vessel
# sharp maple What makes you think the mods and the CM cant draw the line or know where the li...

I think the Moderators and Community Manager can draw the line very well. That’s not what I’m trying to say. It’s more of a tool that could be utilized if the mods needed assistance or didn’t want to take the heat associated with deciding on bans.

I believe there is truth to the comments made in this thread by multiple community members coming from different angles about preventing bad-faith actors from tearing down the team and project, as well as spreading constant negativity without any basis other than resentment.

Solutions to this, as mentioned above, include tightening the rules and enforcing them more strictly—especially regarding the spread of misinformation and presenting opinions as facts. Or, still my personal favorite: creating a second Discord specifically for onboarding new players, so they aren’t immediately bombarded with the negative sentiment of some investors that has accumulated over the years.

Similar to how a Web2 gamer trying out Illuvium should be exposed to as little crypto-related content as possible until they choose to explore it, (Wallets, ETH, ..) I think this approach should also apply to the Discord. A non crypto gamer coming into here and seeing some of the threads and discussions, will have a high chance of turning them off the game.

I’m not sure why you’re bringing up completely random topics or concerns about me taking away your job. It’s still very early in this Epoch, and I’m confident you can demonstrate that you’re worth the money you’re paid and secure reelection. Let’s stay on topic in this thread, please. My DMs are always open if you want to discuss off-topic matters.

That said, I’ve shared my thoughts and won’t repeat points that have already been explained above. Please read the whole thread thoroughly, and if there are any new questions that haven’t been addressed yet or new ideas you want to tackle, I’m happy to help.

sharp maple
# quick vessel I think the Moderators and Community Manager can draw the line very well. That’s...

Have you asked the mods and CM if they need assistance from an ethic council?

I believe the mods and CM have done a really great job in moderating the discord. Do you believe the mods and CM have done a great job?

Stricter rules enforcement. This is where we disagreed. The best way to settle this is to do an IIP.

Read your replies to me. you commented on what i advocated, how i know better in maneuvering around the rules and still act in bad faith, telling me how to do my role.
and when called out ur playing victim.
We just demonstrated how bad a ethic council can be.

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meanwhile, you complained about anon multiple times. what do u have to say about that

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is that how u demonstrate that council need to listen to the community?

quick vessel
# sharp maple Have you asked the mods and CM if they need assistance from an ethic council? I...

Yes, this has been an on-and-off topic over the past 1–2 years, discussed with mods, main mods, the CM, various iterations of councils, and community members who have reached out about this overarching issue.

I think the Moderators and CM are doing an amazing job. I have nothing but gratitude and respect for them.

Yes, we can agree to disagree on stricter rule enforcement. The best solution isn’t always an IIP in many cases.
I am glad that you are now able to phrase it as “disagreeing” instead of calling on the community to "stop telling mods what to do."

I didn’t say you are acting in bad faith, but I do believe you have in the past. You even admitted to it and seemed somewhat proud of being an ex-Discord troll and of having successfully tiptoed around the rules.

How do you think I’ve been "playing victim"? Please elaborate—that was not my intention.
I’m simply trying to stay as on-topic as possible. Your off-topic remarks directed at me don’t make me a victim; they just make this conversation more difficult.

I would also recommend reviewing the conversation. It seems there are many misunderstandings from both sides.

And yes, not engaging with your off-topic accusations is how I demonstrate my ability to leave the personal elements out of the conversation and focus on staying constructive in addressing the matter at hand.

That said, this doesn’t seem to be leading anywhere constructive, so I’ll leave it at that.

sharp maple
# quick vessel Yes, this has been an on-and-off topic over the past 1–2 years, discussed with m...

"Yes" as in you have asked the mods and CM, or "Yes" as in the mods and CM agreed to have an ethic council?
you havent answered the question clearly.

We are a DAO, if you want stricter rules enforcemant than what the mods and CM are implementing then, you will need an IIP. I can help you write one if you'd like.

you've made a lot of assumptions about what i said there, let's not spread mis info. council is still subject to discord rules

stray pecan
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Getting some George Orwell vibes here. An ethic council? 😂

sharp maple
stray pecan
void wasp
void wasp
crystal laurel
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I honestly think that the rules should be more clearer and avoid vague language which will allow @void wasp and the mods to be more decisive when enforcing them.

While yes I agree that there should be free speech, I also believe that it doesnt mean free from consequences.

Another thing of note while maximum tolerance is needed before a ban I think muting should be exercised more.

void wasp
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We’ve been through this so many times

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Who comes up with those rules

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Define toxic

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It’s not a simple “let’s make more rules and ban people”

stray pecan
glad fiber
# quick vessel Yes, this has been an on-and-off topic over the past 1–2 years, discussed with m...

I really hate to put it like this, but if I am being honest, it sounds like you are trying to create some idealistic, softy woke safe space by micromanaging what people say.

If people don't like someone, they can block them. Having mods babysit every post trying to figure out if it deserves a ban or something is honestly such a waste of time and energy.

We are a crypto gaming community. There are gonna be bulls, bears, whiners, crybabies, a**holes etc. That is unavoidable. The mods do their job well enough.

They step in when an argument becomes toxic, like personal insults, they get rid of scammers, and they call out blatant false information.

We don't need babysitters.

rancid crane
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but what if my feelings get hurt?🥺

sharp maple
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lol.
no offense.

crystal laurel
rancid crane
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What impass? This whole thread started because a guy who at the moment of writing it had 6 beers (his words) and still feels bad for all the hate he got back when he was leading illuvium zero (my words). The rest is just some people being simps or sharing similar sad feelings from criticism. Who in his right mind would try and force positivity by censorship?

cloud pasture
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Its about 5 people joining the discord a day and when there is every day 15 Posts how Bad everything is , its not really helpfull for the Community to aquire new people and Stick to the Project. Its Not about saying that sth is Bad. But If its Like every third Message it keeps myself away from this Kind of Community, because those people Care about their Investments and not about the Project at its whole. ROI comes from Risk and people who dont get managed their Risks at their own and trying to blame others for it is damaging a good mooded Community. Also the Problem is the expectations of Investors. Guys are working on artworks and Clips Like a month (i think Dimitri mentioned), the Community ist celebrating the Artwork Like 5 minutes and than they cry for the next thing Like it would be nothing.
The Most people Just dont know how much time IT Takes to create sth never build and that the visual part is just one part of the infrastructure.
Its sad that a Community has to discuss about this kind of things than trying to help the Team beeing as productive as possible. I am Sure Here are a Lot of people who have a Lot of skills which they would offer for free to Help the Team as illuvidata etc does it.
(Sorry for grammar my swiftkeyboard is german)

opaque delta
# glad fiber I really hate to put it like this, but if I am being honest, it sounds like you ...

I have never had anyone step in when being baited and pushed into a corner by certain members, although i have been warned when i used the same tone and language. Being called a karen because people were being aholes and treading the line they know they can get away with.
Its not about feelings its about the freedom of speech you love so much and it applying to everyone. There are ways that works and ways that doesn't. People do not behave the same in groups, especially online groups, than they do on an individual basis. If more people actually said hey your being a jerk right now, the community could moderate itself, yet it hasn't because i think few people know how to communicate anymore without some kind of dopamine drama hit.
In the end ignoring people was the only option, then simply not being in active in the discord at all.
I found my communication skills that i have studied in various fields for, became shite, and i let myself fall to the base level.
Perhaps if people just laugh it off and let it go, or try to find what the root issue is. ??? People brought this up years ago and its still being talked about.

rancid crane
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I'm sad because no one stood up for me
Let's apply stricter rules in the name of freedom of speech.
People don't say what you think they should be saying
Your studies didn't pay off
Got it

fiery ice
opaque delta
# rancid crane I'm sad because no one stood up for me Let's apply stricter rules in the name of...

That's not what I meant.
I was referring to my own deteriorating communication skills. Largely due to them not making a difference and the style of communication becoming normal.

I am for freedom of speech.
I am not for people being deliberately counter productive in communication.

If you were at a work meeting, what would be your style of communication? What is the most productive?

I worked in an industry that encouraged robust debate and taking the emotion out of it.

I failed at this skill due to constantly banging my head against a brick wall. Letting myself slide into dysfunctional communication.

Case in point. You have completely misunderstood my meaning.

I don't see anything wrong with the whole community discussing it.

Your argument is one that used to deny anyone that thinks differently.

Maybe it's a simple process of individual accountability.
If a person says, Hey can we communicate differently I'm finding it difficult to have a conversation, it's respected, and if not then the person not liking it can just stop communicating.

However look at the effect of this. For both sides it means lack of voices.

That's why there is a standard of communication that is devoid of certain tones and behaviours, so all voices can be heard and respected.

opaque delta
rancid crane
# opaque delta That's not what I meant. I was referring to my own deteriorating communication ...

"I was refering to my own deteriorating communication skill. Largely due to them.."
Blaming others for my problems. The one missing woke argument.

The rest is about communication efficiency like this is some kind of a job. We are not at a work meeting, so fallacy

And you ended with something about "lack of voices" consequence of people arguing? I read that a couple of times but I'm not sure I understood it

opaque delta
# rancid crane "I was refering to my own deteriorating communication skill. Largely due to them...

I am.not blaming others. I am looking at the communication style and objectively addressing where I saw my own failings.

The communication style I'm referring to is one that is used in all forms of communication within groups for the group to function.

I'm guessing for most it's about making statements and not wanting to be involved in a conversation.

Arguing is okay. Robust debate, with passion even, is important.
What I have seen that tends to happen, is it becomes one against the other and devolves into personal diatribe instead of the topic at hand.
This usually occurs due to terms such as wokeness to over simplify and discount thoughts and view points that are not the same. This also happens with the opposite. Toxic, too negative ext, if that becomes heavily gated then that voice is also lost.
Lose lose.

The win win, is having some kind of agreed upon standard, and endeavouring to have dysfunctional communication the exception rather than the norm.

Hence why I think the best answer is for the community to moderate itself. Because it's dynamic.
In doing so though I think it's important for the whole community to work out what's agreed upon.

Putting my learning into the context of Illuvum and this particular issue, I think it would be a long yet worthy process.

It's not simply saying something like ' no hate speech ' for example or ' no NSFW content '
Because these mean different things to people.

We all have different values and beliefs.
They all deserve to be respected (within reason)

Discovering what people think any of the rules mean is important.

For example 'woke' to me means bringing to light the root reasons for, needs for equity and rights of all people.
Yet for you it probably means something different.

The word woke now has meanings it never did.

Your right to freedom of speech for example. The right for groups of people that historically couldn't vote to vote is another old meaning.

It's not about stopping negativity.

#

Apologies for the length yet it's hard to accurately discuss it in short form.

rancid crane
#

Ok I think I understand now. Correct me of I'm wrong. You want to teach people to debate? Perhaps teach is not the word but like enhance certain aspects of a conversations which would make it better for both parties involved

opaque delta
#

Debate will not always happen.
We are all human. We all have our stuff going on. It's about agreeing to a certain standard as a group then having a guide rail when things fall apart. Which they inevitably do.

rancid crane
#

Isn't exactly that what rules and mods are for?

opaque delta
#

I don't think they have as much power as you think they do.
Plus it's not standards agreed upon by the DAO

sharp maple
#

wdym

opaque delta
#

Correct me if I'm wrong. Yet the rules Mods go by have not been identified by the DAO, discussed, with meaning understood and voted upon.?

sharp maple
#

the discord is owned and administered by labs

opaque delta
#

Like its the simple discord rules with a little extra?

#

What does that mean in practical terms?

sharp maple
#

just as it is written

opaque delta
#

In the rules section of discord?

sharp maple
#

the dao delegated lots stuff to labs

opaque delta
#

Does this mean I'm incorrect that the DAO hasn't any formal communication statement?

sharp maple
#

not everything need to be identified, discussed, understood and voted upon

opaque delta
#

I agree, yet since this has been a perpetual issue over the years maybe it's something that can be looked at?

sharp maple
#

it has been looked at. we have discussed this topic in epoch 9 too when i was in ICC

opaque delta
#

Can you direct me to the governance communication? I must have missed that one. Or forgotten.

sharp maple
#

early minutes

opaque delta
#

Early minutes

#

Perhaps posting a link in here could help others see what has been done and what the outcome was.

#

If you could do that I think it would save time and be appreciated, as you already have the knowledge of when it happened and where it is.

sharp maple
#

December 13th 2023

opaque delta
#

Okay thank you.

sharp maple
opaque delta
#

Thank you.

sharp maple
#

well basically rich got it.
and i 100% supporting the CM and mods

opaque delta
#

What is toxicity.
What are the details of the moderation policies, where are they?
Is there community understanding and agreement on what they mean?
Are they quoted when moderating and banning?
Are they observably upheld by all members of the DAO, Labs team and others?
Why do you think this is still an issue that is brought up?

sharp maple
#

You cant really lay everything out. Im just gonna trust our CM and mods to do their best.
But everyone is welcomed to do an IIP or apply for the roles to change it

#

everyone has their own opinion and preference on discord moderation and culture.

grand bronze
#

Honestly I think its got a lot better since the crypto market has been looking up. Even if ILV hasn't made gains there seems to be far less hardcore trolling.

opaque delta
rancid crane
#

Unbelievable

split adder
sharp maple
lavish axle
#

It’s preferable that the community enforces this - I.E any negative sentiment is matched by positive sentiment by the community and a dismantling of their arguments (where relevant)

opaque delta
rancid crane
#

Discussing for days and acting so convinced something was wrong and needed a change. Then one guy says "actually it looks better". And you suddenly agree maybe it's nothing. Hilarious

opaque delta
# rancid crane Discussing for days and acting so convinced something was wrong and needed a cha...

Oh I see how you could think that.
I still believe it would be worth it. I said all I could say. Plus Jhonny is the OP so what's the point in continuing.
I understand how financial fear can drive sentiment.
I was mainly explaining group dynamics and responding to some of the issues.
It's seems though you have to degrade the content and make claims about my personality and intentions, due to your own perception of my intent.
Literally everyone could change the dynamic if they stopped doing that. Just be a decent person.
Good luck with everything.
Enjoy the way you communicate to others I hope it serves you well.

quick vessel
# opaque delta Oh I see how you could think that. I still believe it would be worth it. I said...

I appreciate you speaking up, Teloolah, and I agree with what you’ve explained above. Thank you very much. The best way to move forward is to encourage community members to share their thoughts on how they feel people are communicating—whether it’s overly toxic, spreading misinformation, inciting conflict, or similar issues—and strive to moderate ourselves accordingly.

I believe Illuvium Labs remains hesitant to tighten the rules due to potential backlash on Twitter. I can understand that from a corporate perspective.

opaque delta
rancid crane