The underlying Problem with Overworld

[dusk thunder]

I want to take a moment to dive into the underlying issues I see with Overworld, especially in light of discussions about potentially removing it entirely in favor of a pack-opening focus.

What’s the purpose of opening a card pack? It’s the thrill of the chance to pull that legendary, super-rare card. You open it, you get it, and you’re ecstatic—that’s the moment we’re all hoping for.

However, in Overworld, we don’t even experience this fundamental thrill. I haven’t seen a single Tier 5 Stage 3 unit—the "jackpot"—after months of playing.

But the issues don’t stop there. Since ownership currently has no real use case and only stats seem to matter, even if you do hit the jackpot and pull a Rhamphyre, it’s likely to have poor stats, leaving a sour taste. After hitting the jackpot, you end up feeling disappointed. The true jackpot—a T5 S3 with perfect stats—is nearly impossible to achieve and feels too out of reach for what pack openings are supposed to deliver. Dark Holo feels like the same problem, super rare, but with shit stats it feels bad in the end.

I know this perspective will probably draw a lot of negative sentiment due to concerns about devaluing the illuvials we’ve already obtained. And I get it—I’d lose a lot if perfect stats or rare illuvials became more accessible. But I still think it’s important to have this conversation.

It feels like we haven’t tried hard enough and make radical changes to make Overworld everything it can be before scrapping it. I also think similar issues will arise with a pack-opening system. If you almost never pull a Rhamphyre, and when you finally do, it has poor stats, little value, and limited usability, that would be extremely frustrating.

[faint cypress]

Yep, well said. 👏

I have well over 1000 hours of OW and I've only seen a T5S3 once and the highest DH I've found was a T4S2 during all this time...

You're absolutely right, stats are the heart of the OW and it's what actually drives me to to keep grinding (although I've stopped playing with the recent news).

I've always felt a bit sad when players go to the OW channel after finding a T5S3 or T5S2 holo asking if it's worth a master shard because the illuvial doesn't have good stats.

I would also like to see a bit more of rare illuvials, because since shards break if the illuvial doesn't have some minimum decent stats it's not worth spending a shard to capture it, no matter its tier. Not only that, as you mentioned, I don't think opening packs with the current drop chances will be appealing at all!

[warped sandal]

Completely understand where you are coming from with this feeling… I have also been hunting for Illuvials with good stats, for a few hours every day. With the goal to fuse them to gain the higher stages with good stats and level up in the process.

Rarely do I find any high level illuvials, or DH,… Except today, where I just encountered my very first T5S3. Running around “tagging” one Slappin after the another … and suddenly there was this big Titanor in front of me, and that was exactly that “What the actual F*** moment”, where you can feel the adrenaline and you start thinking… I have to win this fight, and is this the moment where I use the Master Shard I carry with me.

Of course I checked the stats, and though.. darn, I wish it had better stats… but still super cool to have an encounter like that, and I wish they would be just a bit more frequent.

But I think its ok, that you will need to collect good stat illuvials and fuse them to have a better chance of getting higher stages with good stats.That is also what has kept me playing OW. (although it feels a bit too grindy now, I don't think the concept is bad)

[pale cargo]

i feel there is just a game/ game-mode needed where purely ownership matters, so even if they are not perfect stats, you can use it there and it's great.
I don't think that good stats/perfect stats being rare is bad, that's what make good/perfect stats exceptional cards, the same for DH.
I also don't think a normal human being should be able to have a whole set of perfect stats or dark holos, just because he grinds everyday.

[dusk thunder]

Haven't used a single master shard since launch

Yeah, I can see that stats and Dark-Holo are the ultimate jackpot and can remain as rare as they are. There must be a tradeoff, though; otherwise, we can’t achieve anything close to the excitement of opening a card pack. Increasing the drop rate of rare Illuvials, as we saw last time, made the game much better and more enjoyable. I don’t think gameplay features are necessarily missing. We just need to get much closer to the original dopamine hit that real card openings provide.

[warped sandal]

Agree, I think something like a simple “collection game”, similar to Beyond, where you could get a small reward for completing the capture milestones would go a long way to make it more fun to try to “catch them all” regardless of stats, but maybe that might be part of what is planned for the Repository. 🤔

[gleaming pawn]

The first issue: OW lacks excitement. It is repetitive, you are constantly moving around from encounter to encounter, checking stats, if high stat u battle and capture, if not, you are taken back to the teleporter. A single run takes almost an hour, if no illuvials worth catching, you fly around shooting rocks. OW is an unfun pack opening (once u have played 50+ runs) without a dopamine element. You don’t get that unless you see a T5S3 or DH (that’s the only time u feel good without having to check stats). You can accomplish the end goal of an OW run - get 5-6 high stat illuvials in 5 minutes in a visually cool pack opening instead. Make it 3D, you enter a wake, and in sequential order illuvials appear in order from lowest stat to highest stat. Let’s say 10 illuvials per wake, you get to select the one u want, or pass. Then move to another wake of illuvials. In an OW run u get to see the stats of 120 ish illuvials before deciding to capture. So let’s say one make a single pack contain 100 illuvials, and u can choose the 5-6 u want. Just like in an OW run. Main goal to have some agency despite that it is a pack opening - like in an OW run. Include the amazing sounds of the illuvials, make fireworks appear when the final best stat illuvial appears in the wake. Just like how FIFA has been so successful with. This would be boosting revenue a lot! It will also make higher stat illuvials a little more present - which definitely is needed in order for Leviathan to succeed - with a broader base of players

The second issue is like u say that ownership does not matter except for the top 5% stat illuvials. Something is wrong when a high stat Kukka is worth more than a mediocre Rhampite. There is practically no reason to own mediocre illuvials right now. Before, ownership was needed in Ascendant, now ownership of close to perfect illuvials with max levels are needed.

The third issue is that gauntlet, - supposed to drive illuvial demand, is not yet in a good enough state yet

[cyan saddle]

I have to disagree here, maybe what makes it worst is that you work 30-60mins for a 50 cents pack so when you hit you feel like you should hit for real but then its just a bad stat dh or t5s3

Counterstrike as one of the most if not the most successful economy and loot box system. The cheapest boxes are about 4$ and the odds of hitting anything are incredibly small

When you hit a knife/glove (rarest/0.04% i think) its most often a shitty one anyway

Having the good stuff incredibly rare is still what ultimately drives the market up because even if you have 0% of an awesome pull when you or someone else does its truly amazing. Works just like loterry, it actually is loterry

To me the 3 main concerns about OW are the following

1. its gamified
   That makes our aimed demographic need to basically play another game to play their game which of course 90%+ wouldnt want to do

2. no immediate dopamine
   Gambling is based on dopamine and part of it as to do with the fact that its immediate and "spammable"

3. impossible to spend
   Having to pass 30-60mins to open our pack makes it impossible to spend a lot of money. Right now its literally free2play as its +ev searching for stats and the dao makes almost no revenue because runs are long and cheap (because we dont have arena yet)

---

I believe a lot in OW potential but being built on the core principale of a pack opening actually restrains it from becoming a game of its own

[mossy siren]

Counterstrike is also pretty fun and has been successful for ages now.

If it wasn’t a fun game there wouldn’t even be a market for it

[cold walrus]

Ascendant definitely needs to be in a better spot before the logic makes sense

[cyan saddle]

Correct, being fun game is the basic but i would argue that cs wouldnt have a good market and tons of revenue if instead of loot box people had to play hours of another type of game to get their cs skins

[mossy siren]

I agree that their market is amazing

[dusk thunder]

I also don't think a normal human being should be able to have a whole set of perfect stats or dark holos, just because he grinds everyday.

I agree! But I do think everybody who puts in the hours should be able to capture all Illuvials. And that can increase the overall fun a lot. Making ownership more available will help us make overworld more exciting and open the door to ownership games with low entry cost barrier.

[pale cargo]

i agree that from the spawn rate, for example a stage 3 feels a bit underwhelming, saw 1 t5s3 and 1 t5s2 so far in my runs, and played quite a lot.
I feel we also have to keep in mind tho, we are not even 4 months into the set.
What is planned how long a set lasts? been a while since i heared anything on that front... but if it's like a year, the spawn balance might be a bit low, but i don't feel it's completely out of whack as i read everywhere lately.

[dusk thunder]

I don't have any information about the set length, and that’s a big part of the equation. I can ask the team if they have anything they can share with us. I would assume it's hard right now to predict with the current volatility in the market and in the game. Sometimes I forget we're still in open beta.

[pale cargo]

Would be lovely to get some News arround that.
Doesn't habe to be dates 🙂

[eternal pier]

you're right that's why I stopped playing now I prefer to buy illuvials directly

[gleaming pawn]

If they keep OW (in its current form), I feel something needs to change in terms of the experience and the time u have to spend checking for stats. In my opinion, the highest stat illuvial should be the one to show up in the owerworld with a power level meter or something on top of the illuvial displaying its stat in a scale (color green to yellow to red) where a red ish color on the power meter would indicate close to 300% stats. Then u wouldn’t need to go into 40 encounters to check stats. Having the Tier and stage take priority in what u see, I don’t actually get that (maybe except for DH and S3(T3+) illuvials). because what matters are the stats. Having that power meter indicating stats would make the current OW experience a lot better, and u could probably do a run in like 10-15 minutes. And even better, you would get an instant dopamine rush. Imagine seeing a Rhampyre with a red power meter on top in the OW… one would go instant bananas. See a very green bar: skip that encounter. See an orange bar on let’s say a T4 illuvial: oh.. that’s interesting, I enter that. See a totally red bar on a kukka: definitely going into that encounter. Thoughts on this @dusk thunder

[dusk thunder]

Two points that came up above are about run-time. I think if a full Overworld run were around 20 minutes, for example, it would help a lot.

For me, the most repetitive and time-consuming part is by far the autobattler. I was very optimistic that quick, live-action combat could come in and significantly improve the experience. To cut down run-time even further, we could, for instance, acquire the same amount of resources with less energy so we don’t have to mine and harvest everything aimlessly, which would really help speed things up.

[dusk thunder]

I like the idea. It sounds like a nice visor upgrade for your nethersight, and works well with illuvial combat to streamline the stat scanning.

[gleaming pawn]

Exactly, imagine if one could reduce the number of autobattlers one enters from like 25-30 to 7-8, most boring part of OW is entering and exiting an encounter and being shipped back to a teleporter. I also agree that there could be just random ores/essences given to you if you didn’t find illuvials. When u don’t have more illuvials, and the hunt is done u have the option to select: a particular consumable + essences, or shards or ores or gems, then the drones scans and just gives you that category you chose based on energy u have left as if you were to shoot them yourself. Shooting rocks and plants should be optional, not necessary 😅

[dusk thunder]

One thing I want to mention is that I—and, I think, many others—would be very sad to see the original Pokémon idea of catching creatures disappear. Since this is a full PvE experience, it doesn’t need a player base to sustain it. I understand it does need to be at least financially self-sustaining in terms of the dev work required to keep it running. But it feels like we could just let it live. We could make Project: Breach the main obelisk game mode in Sanctum Mesa, while also having a small, tucked-away island where you can touch the rune stone and teleport into a region.

Of course, we probably need all hands on deck to make Gauntlet as polished as possible to reach a strong position with player base and acquisition. But I think we should give Overworld at least the same consideration as Ascendant; to pause development on it but still leave the option for a fun exploration capture game-mode for casual gamers.

[spice tiger]

101% agree with the most boring part (and time consuming for me) is when you enter and exit an encounter and being shipped back to a teleporter. LOL. and you have to do that like what, atleast 40 times. too much of a hassle and too repetitive.

if they could change that when you exit an encounter without fighting, and you'll be at that exact same spot before you enter the encounter. it'll be huge help haha.

[drifting knot]

I don't think anyone has mentioned ditching OW completely. Even if it was shelved for the time being to focus on Arena/Pack opening, it would be relaunched in the future and in a much better state than it is now, with the overall player base and economy in a much stronger position.
It could be everything that it should have been to begin with.

[uncut compass]

@dusk thunder curious about what you'd say once the stats are properly balanced. Personally, I think the stats are way too impactful right now. 50% bonus are you kidding me, that is ridiculous! It should be more like a 5% bonus. If that were the case, I think you would feel different. Bottom line I think the team made a mistake starting with such impactful stats. It gave the perception that stats were huge when in the end I always thought that "as is" those stats would break any leviathan mode. @left gazelle made a good video on this also. This point aside, given the current state, I completely agree with you. Thank you for bringing this up for discussion.

[drifting knot]

I agree. I've also come around to the idea and think a big nerf is hugely beneficial in many areas, including the one that you are addressing here.
If the impact was reduced, people would still feel good about getting average stats as they would still be competitive, but you would feel amazing if you got a perfect regardless due to the added benefit in game and rarity factor. The stats don't need to be super OP to achieve this level of excitement.

I'd be open to going further than the 5% too, maybe even 1-2%.

[left gazelle]

I think there's lots of excitement in the Overworld, for example I found a Phyriox with really great stats the other day and was over the moon. My problem was spending 20 minutes to find it, and then battle it and then capture it was a chore, and not a great experience. Imagine how annoyed I'd be if I didn't scan the region first...

Sure we should maybe make things a little less rare, and Packs would give us that chance with say a Stage 4 and Stage 5 'run' version of the pack. But really being able to obtain 100 random Illuvials and see that 1 of them has perfect stats would be a way more enjoyable experience to me than exploring the Overworld currently.

I do share the sentiment that we barely tried, my main example being there is no actual hunting mechanics. Tracking footprints, barely any Illuvials roaming around etc, that slow down the process to more of a grind than it needs to be.

[left gazelle]

It definitely doesn't need to go as low as 5%, the way I see it is you need a big separation between free and paid, and a small separation between paid and whale. Ultimately money isn't as much of a barrier as you might think with this perspective, its actually time. The levels are a much bigger deal than the good stats, since a moderately good stat illuvial isn't particularly rare.

So I think the 25-30% range in total after level and stats are calced for, is pretty decent

[drifting knot]

What downsides do you see from there being a small barrier between paid and free?

[left gazelle]

Ownership not being impactful enough. If we say 'obtaining illuvials' is supposed to be the number 1 revenue generator. Then it needs to still be perceived as impactful enough to matter.

Otherwise we have no revenue? a 5% difference doesn't exceed the Gauntlet general RNG, and therefore doesn't matter at all. 1 broken Augment makes u win regardless of any kind of ownership for example

[drifting knot]

Cheers! Appreciate your response.

[high lodge]

Agreed for the same reason that everyone that played magic the gathering in the 90's doesn't have a black lotus or everyone who played Pokémon in the early 2000's doesn't have a 1st edition Holo Charizard.... it's what makes them rare...take that away and you remove the entire rarity from said cards....

[high lodge]

Agreed if you make it so a perfect stat illuvial mean nothing more than perhaps winning the augment lottery it makes it seem not worth the investment in time and $$. just play to get good augments and never have to spend a dime. With that said currently levels can get you a stat boost up to 60% to ALL stats which makes a mid stat illuvial actually better than a perfect stat illuvial that isn't leveled. I have come up with the idea for tapered tiered traits where the difference of 5/5 could mean something like 8% more than a 4/5 instead of the current 10% difference but again this would only be the case with 4/5 when compared to 5/5 when 3/5 compared to 4/5 the difference could be 10%

[pale cargo]

to be honest, i would have loved the illuvium journey being close to a real life journey. Stuff being rare and hard to get level matter and level are not capped.
Seeing people specializing in decks because they got lucky with toxic berserker stats and therefore he always plays with berserker toxic and that deck being strong because not only they synergize well and have good stats but because he trains the illuvials all the time. If i like ryplance and i play everyday with him over the next 3 years, that dude should shred vs a ryplance on got yesterday and put him into his deck.
Leviathan would be so much fun to play, because you don't fight "meta decks" you fight decks those people made stronger and stronger over time.

[high lodge]

This would really create a bond with certain illuvials as you describe also since it would mimic the relationship between Ash and Pikachu

[left gazelle]

I never considered tapered, technically its already tapered naturally on resistances, maybe adjusting the other combat formulas to suit could be enough

[pale cargo]

exactly

[high lodge]

Tapered in the sense that not every trait gives you 10%. The higher you climb the bonus tapers off

[pale cargo]

if you cap level at 60, in 1 year level means nothing anymore. Just everyone has half his deck level 60 and after some time all cards are level 60.
If you then decrease impact of stats leviathan becomes no difference then casual. You won't see how much extra effort people put in their decks.
Nothing special at all

[high lodge]

Agreed like the example you gave someone who just bought a ryplance yesterday could be just as strong as your ryplance that you have trained for a year. At which point will you feel any sort of accomplishment having trained yours for a year?

[harsh forge]

What if we leave the OW with a similar capture experience but add pack opening on mobile. Make all stats on mobile zeroed out. However you can use the breach and gauntlet to receive illuviDust by playing and winning which would allow you to grind illuvial levels and power up your stats. What do you think?

[pale cargo]

yea. I pointed out the positive feeling, you the negative feeling but it's pretty much the same 😄

same system with ranger.
If you play gauntlet all the time, he should get experience and maybe even get skill trees or points to distribute where he can strengthen the stuff he likes for gauntlet.
That ranger level system should influence the strength of your team aswell, not to the extend as stats or level of illuvials do, but after years of playing it should add a considerable amount of bonus.

[eternal pier]

If we had ascendant we could focus on a favorite team that would motivate us to look for the perfect illuvials for my team and level them up but gauntlet you must have all the perfect illuvials all the level 60 illuvials it's too much work too much....

[left gazelle]

Yeah I get you, I think thats a solid solution, for how I'd like to see things play out at least.

[left gazelle]

Well ideally you release set 2 and then set 3. And you have more illuvials to level to 60. I agree I think the level barrier should be uncapped naturally, but then individual games can have their own rules. Arena might cap illuvials at level 60, but co-op game modes might not cap levels at all.

[left gazelle]

I think this would be a better use of player progression systems. Especially if you can level up multiple characters. Going full MMO on this could lend itself to every future game too. You have your character that you feel super attached to

[pale cargo]

That's the point, Arena shouldn't cap at 60

Stop the competitive esport thinking in leviathan, or the thinking that in 3 years a fresh account should have a fair Chance to win the leviathan Worldcup.
You have all that Stuff in ranked.
Leviathan is about and/or comitment, money, skill and Progress.
Absolutely crazy Stuff should happen in there, thats what will Make it exciting to play and to watch.
And thats also what makes whales pay insane prices for crazy Stuff, Like when someone sells a Level 150 titanor with good stats, where one had to spend 2k hours with him to Level it up to 150

[pale cargo]

I feel you should have your Ranger as your avatar, which gains experience for whatever game he plays, if he just plays gauntlet he gets strong and versatile in there, but gona be weak and nooby when he first time plays breach.

[hasty spindle]

yeah dude you are 100% right
Investors should pay big money for ILUVs and hire the best players and compete with each other (guild, organisation)/No player needs an organization, because he can assemble an average deck and work on his own without guilds and organizations. And the organizations themselves will not invest tons of money here, because they will not get anything. Everyone looks at the conditionally free games Dota, CS, but do not see how much you need to invest in equipment, education, players, salaries, holding events, so that their team gets to the top. Now we just want a person to come from the street, buy an average deck for 50 bucks and easily resist a player who fused for a month, spent 1k + $ and finally got a full stately one iluvs of 100 iluvs.
Iluvium has already lost most of its investors, the other part is trying to leave the project, they still have hope for the mass market free-to-play and hopes for skins that look very weak and cheap. When the mass market comes, it will turn out that the same 100 investors brought in many times more income. I think everyone will see this after the sales of the next beyound since free-to-play and mass market are worth nothing.

[dusk thunder]

I think 5% already exceed the gauntlet general rng at a high competitive level. Even something as extremely low as 1% gives you a huge competitive advantage and it would feel impossible for a semi-pro to try play without it.

[gleaming pawn]

agree to your point, but still think there should be some difference though.. if people want real competitive play, go to gauntlet free to play, leviathan needs something pushing demand for higher stat illuvials, but the current is way too high yeah, 10% per stat level

[dusk thunder]

I agree that a big part missing in Illuvium is that unbreakable bond you had with your Pokémon. You would capture one Scyther, and that would be your companion until the end—all the way to level 100. If it got KO'd, you'd run back to heal it before moving on. There was no need to get a second one, except for trading. With the hundreds of Illuvials in my pocket, I feel no emotional connection to any of them.

However, once I realized what EVs and IVs do in Pokémon, it was hard to keep that emotional bond as strong, since it always felt like I was missing out if my Pokémon wasn’t perfect.

[dusk thunder]

Yeah. The main point for me here is that no matter how low the impact of stats are, they will always be a must have for the top end of the bell curve, so we can check that and focus on other things. Like finding a way to maximize player onboarding while also keeping the whales happy. Don't think whales would be happy with 1%, but it was an extreme example to say pro-players will want that advantage, no matter how low it is.

[gleaming pawn]

yeah, agree!

[dusk thunder]

I like the idea of uncapped, but the game modes will have level caps, similar to Pokémon Stadium. You could bring a level 100 Pokémon, but if you played in the level 50 ruleset, its level would be temporarily downgraded to 50 for the match.

Some game modes need a level cap; otherwise, newcomers would feel discouraged facing an uphill battle where they can never catch up to players who have been around longer. But some, specially Multiplayer PvE modes like what I would assume breach will look like, would work well to just flex your favourite level 142 Illuvial.

[devout spindle]

I think the solution here might be a trade-off. Like increasing the drop rate of rare illuvials, but then making those battles much more difficult to win so you have to really earn it and it decreases your chances of capturing. At least that balances it out a little if the drop rate increased. Does that make sense..?

I'm talking about scaling the difficulty for super rare illuvials, so t5s3 battles could be more frequent, BUT really difficult to win so you would need a little bit of luck, and A LOT of skill. Luck would come into play if, for example, you happened to have an all water team and encountered a rhamphyre. But if you had an all nature team then you're screwed basically

[left gazelle]

I will have to disagree, but I'm not going to assume I know the game better

[left gazelle]

Yeah I think this is the way to go. A level 100 Pokemon matters to the elite 4 but not to vgc for example, is how I see it

[high lodge]

Agreed I have seen paz and others play the virtuous lynx with infinite healing in tournaments so to say that 1% is even a thing is laughable there are so many things already that do way more ie crit augment lottery etc. If the bonus is negligible so will be the demand for great stat illuvials

[left gazelle]

Even if we were to say in a world with perfect balance. that will never actually exist, perfect balance is not the intent for a video game generally speaking. It's more about 'fun' balance

[drifting knot]

I know its a completely different game but in Pokemon go, base stats account for 90% and the IV's only account for a maximum of 10%, in spite of this everyone still chases and is very excited to catch a perfect hundo, especially if it's shiny too, and they could only get full benefit in one league "master league", as that is the only league that allows for max level/stats to be fully effective.
So long as there is an advantage (doesn't have to be huge) and they remain rare/collectible, I think they remain highly desirable and therefore valuable.

[faint cypress]

but do those games have 2 different game modes for standardized stats and for bonus stats? Having 2 different game modes and not having the stats being impactful enough is a mistake IMO.

[eternal pier]

@drifting knot 👍 he is right there should not be a big gap between Ranker and Leviathan

[covert hull]

every single run goes like this: start run - loading screen -> few seconds animation -> run into an illuvial, spend 15-25 seconds shooting it -> start fight - loading screen -> units take 10 seconds to load in -> 5 seconds to check stats -> escape -> loading screen -> respawn at base or checkpoint -> repeat 10-20 times, team positioning does not save between fights.
The amount of time that can be saved with just QoL stuff is insane, if you could make escape spawn you in the same spot you started and get rid of the loading screens 1 hour runs go to 25 minutes

also the amount of good stats in the overworld is way too low, you can't have people play 10 runs to find fuckall

[faint cypress]

this I disagree. Stat rarity is fine. Illuvial rarity is not.

[covert hull]

what do you mean?

[faint cypress]

it's random. No tweaks to it.

[covert hull]

i actually have the opposite, i see plenty of T2 S4/5s, they're just not worth catching cuz their stats suck

and if u just made T5S3s more common then they'd just be worth less than a master shard so u'd just come to a point where they're boring/0 good feeling about them too

[drifting knot]

No they don't have separate modes for paid and free, they have leagues that everyone can join, some are just more pay to win than others based on entry requirements, as like I mentioned in my example, the maximum advantage one can have with max stats is 10% over a complete 0 stat Pokemon. But this doesn't make max stats any less desirable as they are still super rare and collectible and any advantage that can be obtained when playing at a high level is super valuable.

Think of F1, they spend millions trying to inch out 1000th/100th of a second advantage per lap. The smallest advantages matter a great deal when playing at the highest level. I really don't think the stats need to be so broken.

[native summit]

OW is just unplayable for some people i think, just imagine manual battle and boring rotation, it’s like you are working lol not playing a game.

[faint cypress]

the problem in our case, is that gauntlet has a limited pool of illuvials. Which means you won't have that many mirror matches. The team comps will very much have to be different from one another. It's not like everyone is competing with an almost exact engine like you mention in F1. Or in pokemon's case with almost identical meta decks.

[devout spindle]

@left gazelle
Would love to get your thoughts on this? This has been discussed before I'm assuming..?

[left gazelle]

This has been done a few times already. The primary setup has been to make shards worse to balance what can and cant be captured to maintain balance.

The issue with ramped up difficulty is, with a max stat Illuvial at level 60+, there isn't really an opponent you can't defeat, not with consumables added on top. Also if drop rates increase too much, hackers just break the autobattler and capture everything anyways, defeating the purpose.

[devout spindle]

Makes sense. I knew you would know the answer to this haha. Thanks mate

[left gazelle]

Its all game balance in the end. What is the point of difficulty where the game becomes too frustrating and you leave?

I agree drop rates that are 20-30% better would be ideal for my personal enjoyment. But economically it might not be fantastic

[faint cypress]

the problem is the bonding curve. Things are getting harder to capture. How will the experience be a couple more months down the line? Or after we implement the automated drone runs?

[pale cargo]

there will still be a bonding curve with automated drone runs?

[left gazelle]

Yup that definitely affects it too

[left gazelle]

Good question hmmmm, I guess it'd have to be scrapped no?

[pale cargo]

idk, i would be surprised if not

[devout spindle]

I'm brought back to when I used to play the Nintendo NES games. Some were insanely hard to beat. Like original Mario Bros for example. But the act of mastery was just so satisfying. But it took time. And yes, at times was very frustrating. But I also viewed that as the whole point.

I guess my viewpoint is: if everyone has the skills to capture rare tier 5 stage 2/3 illuvials, then maybe they aren't valuable in the long run. And if someone isn't willing to work for something and train to get better, then that's not the best mentality in life.

However, if people want Illuvium to be just a game where you collect illuvials... Then this line of thinking has no merit. But it reminds me of 8th place trophies mentality tbh

[left gazelle]

Yeah Illuvium's identity is really whats being discussed here, and frequently in council too. I am with you, I can't stomache easy games, I can't focus when I play them.

[late shuttle]

For me illuvium's identity is overworld, drastic changes can be made to improve time spent to capture plus a working marketplace where we can select stats will make a huge difference before we pause it for who knows how long

[prime rivet]

Def agree with the sentiment... I thought the most fun OW was in preseason 1 where you COULD find a rhamphyre or Ophisto

I've done countless OW runs and just feel like it's a mindless waste of time and money with the current rates

[high lodge]

Agreed for the same reason it makes no sense to diminish what it means to have good stats ie if everyone can win within a few % chance regardless of if they are using 0/5 or 5/5. If all we end up doing is having participation rewards for season 3 it will end up no different from season 1 or 2. There needs to be a definitive edge for having best stats in the game. Trying to compare it to something like f1 is not viable when you don't get random nitrous boosts during a race like you do in gauntlet via augments

[drifting knot]

Maybe the problem lies in the random nitrous boosts, especially in competitive. Seems a cheap way to lose.

[high lodge]

its possible but they are only part of the puzzle even so they are a fundamental part just as stats should be when talking about the most competitive game mode we have. the other part are random things that just produce this OP effect ie infinite healing from virtuous lynx

for these reasons i have argued that if actual testing were done i believe someone like Whity or Fox Spirit or Slickz only using 4/5 illuvials would beat a mid level player using all 5/5 illuvials more than 50% of matches. If this proved to be true then it would be indicative of stats not being as IMBA as people feel

[opaque valve]

#1305624778136223854 message
If I were to go back to original post...
I catch some of T5S3, T5S2 H, T5S1 H, some T5S1 +280% ... The feeling of being caught like that is simply GREAT! Adrenaline goes up 🙂

What will change if we switch to autodrone? It was suggested here that it would just be a better autoscan... So you open the "map"... and you still have about a 1:200 chance of T5S3 (or whatever it is exactly!)

And still you have chance only 1 : 46656 for perfect stats +300 ... = final chance FOR CATCH IS 1 : 9M (46656x200)

OW is good play mode... not best... but playeble and funny...

JUST NEED SOME FIXES ... unfortunately I will repeat myself: especially the market repair

Yesterday I wanted to cancel 100 offers to buy mjolls because I finally made +300 HOLO Jokulla.
Canceling 100 offers took me 55 MINUTES!!! and not woking on cell phone!
Deleting the same amount of emails takes me about a minute... I just "check" and delete the marked ones.

Without a functional market, cancel OW, make packages or whatever... but the "MASSIVE PLAYER BASE" WILL LEAVE THE GAME WITHIN A FEW DAYS and give it a 0% rating wherever they can, BECAUSE OF THE NON-FUNCTIONALITY OF THE KEY FUNCTIONS THAT THE MARKET JUST IS (as the main tool for successful fusions, replenishing what I want and selling what I don't want).

[high lodge]

To your point it's very true that if the goal is to have as many players as possible playing leviathan then it has to be easy to find competitive good Stat illuvials via the illuvidex and have all of the functionality that players will need to compete

[earnest pagoda]

Yep I totally disagree removing the overworld. The point of having overworld is to experience hours of play time having fun and excitement exploring the game. If you switch to pack opening you only experience only a minute of excitement or disappoinment whichever you pulled from the pack. Keep the overworld to catch illuvials, keep the master shards harder to obtain, and make extra hard to capture good stats tier 5 holo and dark holo illuvials. Remove all other boring arena games and focus on Leviathan gauntlet. I bet you the marketplace and fuels will skyrocket 🚀

[eternal pier]

There are so few active players in Overworld that deleting it is not taking any risk.

[earnest pagoda]

Ya because it's pretty boring lol. Need multiplayer or add monster boss to fight

[earnest pagoda]

But the concept of getting NFT from overworld is ok and still far better than opening packs.

[eternal pier]

Yes in 1 year you will be able to open overworld when it is ready

[eternal pier]

Pack opening works better than current overworld

We need to be concrete now, the team is too small to manage Arena Overworld Illuvium Zero, I prefer that it focuses on one thing at a time because in the current state we die.

[earnest pagoda]

Most crypto games takes time to take off. I know axie infinity when they first launch and they were negative for more than 5 years before it became viral. Crypto is very tough environment and it's very hard to please everyone and you can't expedite everything to work on your favor all the time. But ya we are all here to have fun and make money lets see what works best and hopefully they'll be able to pull something that makes everyone happy.

[vague mist]

Overworld multiplayer where you have to make teams/raids to take down massive Illuvials, and use consumables bought from marketplace. This would make Overworld go viral.

[drifting knot]

I don't believe it's just a case of timing. Based on a large volume of feedback and data, OW just isn't where it needs to be, and developing the features necessary for it to succeed will take a long time.
Time is not really on our side right now as we really need to capitalise on this market cycle to secure funding and a large enough player base to get us through the next bear market.
OW in it's current form is not sticky enough to maintain an engaged player base, Arena on the other hand, apparently the data suggests that it is.

Right now it just makes sense to at least stop all development of OW in favour of Arena, to help drive that to where it needs to be in as short of a timeframe as possible.
Pack opening has proven to be successful and sticky for Beyond (along with albums/collecting), bringing both of these elements over to Arena therefore is a no brainer as it is fully supported by the data.

With the additional devs secured due to pausing development on OW they can get Arena where it needs to be in a much shorter time frame and ensure the best possible shot at success during this market cycle and beyond.
It's an absolute must IMO to go this route. There are risks of course, but I think it's the best option available.

I'm in favour of pausing OW as I think it will be far easier and less confusing to onboard new users.
When you download illuvium, it would be Area in essence, one game, two modes, paid and free, with pack opening and a marketplace. Very simple and easy to grasp for anyone.
We also wouldn't have to worry about trying to maintain all of the different elements that OW requires and figure out how to get those items in packs etc. Again, very messy and difficult for new users to understand as to why all of these irrelevant items that require another game to use are in their packs.
Start highly focused and simple and expand with the player base.

[faint cypress]

the current OW will never be where it needs to be cause it's not a game. It's a boring 'glorified pack opening'.

The fact that they spent all this time developing it to now throw it away for a straightforward pack opening is just awfully sad... We stopped the airdrop (which I 100% agree), but we also stopped the hunt events (which were actually fun), we've basically had ZERO QoL updates and we have no competition whatsoever (we have meaningless leaderboards), and we wonder why it's not appealing and it's not generating revenue...

It's fine to focus and finish arena for now. But that is a niche target audience, what we really need is to make an actual game from the OW that players can play non stop without being forced to spend a single dime.

[drifting knot]

what we really need is to make an actual game from the OW that players can play non stop without being forced to spend a single dime

I agree, I believe that is the plan from what i've read.

It's fine to focus and finish arena for now. But that is a niche target audience,

I believe so too, but with the Pokedex/album and pack opening I think it will draw in a lot of collectors too, which is a much larger target audience, and at least the ones that do play Area will be a lot more likely to stick around than those that play OW.

[opaque valve]

Hmmm, and Zero, guys?
Will close too ... or are you going to force openers to buy fuel and "force another game" on them again? So we'll close Zero right away... Or will we just make it an "NFT" that you click on once a day and you'll get 1-5 free packs depending on your tier?

Leveling? Are we really going to let bots level up monsters in "arena games"...

Stats? Will there be the same chances as they are now in OW? The market will "go crazy" with those low stats...

Moreover, a large part of people will only play for quantity to gain XP... which will devalue the match results and rankings...

Closing OW (does anyone really believe that it's temporary? When you shut down development for a year... then they say that the engine is outdated... and that fixing it and making improvements would be more expensive than throwing everything away and making a new game... So yes, by "pausing OW I hear closing it forever") is not only throwing away most of the work that was done, but also throwing away the player base that it has (OW is not as bad as some buyers present here! The idea is fun, it can be played very fun and when the Illuvars start moving around the map, as presented in the latest "leak" video, it could be really cool!) at the expense of what? Opening Pokémon?? But ILV doesn't have a "must have" Pokemon brand, think about it!

It's not just an ill-conceived step aside, but 3 steps back, which throws away at least 50% of the development so far... how much is that? 30M USD? More? Less?

OW is dead because (as has been changed here several times):

1. The season has been suspended. Aidrop stopeed was OK, but why nothing else isnt start? - See point 2
2. There's nothing else running so that players can compare themselves. No daily missions, rankings, hunts, NOTHING! It could easily be without rewards... Or maybe just some symbolic amount of free gas! But people like to compare themselves! They like to be FIRST, TOP10, TOP100... !
   Here they won't even get a stupid "star" or "badge" for some completed milestone! Don't always solve everything over money. Experience is enough!
3. The market. I won't discuss the topic again here, I started an extra thread for it here:
   https://discord.com/channels/760344898200666112/1307292276174622812

[opaque valve]

Sorry, but from the perspective of people who are not on Discord (and really not everyone is here, why should they???) the whole ecosystem is dead.
No missions, badges, rankings, no news at official website.
Nothing in OW
Nothing in Arena
Nothing in Zero (plus the sales are absolutely tragic)
Nothing in Beyond (ranking rewards "temporarily" suspended for how long? 16 weeks?), Only "W3 pre-sale" is running)
No Action or "Christmas Calendar" planned on website news.

For ADMIN / MODs / Team ... Does this really seem like a live game that wants to squeeze the most out of Christmas and has a series of events ready for its loyal players?
You're still hanging around in Web3, Crypto, etc.... but you forget a lot that the main product is the GAME ... Or is it really just a "crypto Plane"?

I understand that there is a lot of contribution here on Discord... but not every player is and wants to be on Discord!

[eternal pier]

Gauntlet niche target 100%This is my only fear,...

[pale cargo]

Besides discord, there's also X and the newsletter that just came out.
But i agree, there is a certain silence occuring.
I guess this is mostly because marketing likely got put on ice because the game the team wants to advertise is not in a ready state to be worth advertised. You can also see that in the postponement of season 3 where the officials stated that the revenue generated and people onboarded didn't justify the amount of rewards given out.

[opaque valve]

No problem with "stop marketing"... But what about existing players who just play and wait for Christmas events like other games? Just look at the official websites of other games to see how often and what news they have. This news "communication with player base" doesn't cost a single dollar.

[earnest pagoda]

I joined illuvium because of their unique overworld and cool way of collecting illuvials and NFTs if these features goes to trash I'm 100% sure illuvium will lose most players and marked this project as dead or rug pulled.

[eternal pier]

Too few players so no difference for illuvium

[ornate pollen]

Agree 💯 with this. Well said

[opaque valve]

OMG, nice job. Similar statements will certainly please existing fans and encourage them to keep playing and spending... 🙂

[earnest pagoda]

And arena is a sh*tty game to be honest im just forcing my self to play arena because I know that's the only way to make money but I never liked it because of the way using all illuvials for free. I'm only playing illuvium because of the overworld and if this goes to trash there is no reason for me to stick in this game.

[eternal pier]

You need a lot of time to make overworld better to retain people

[eternal pier]

I agree, I don't like it either (I prefer ascendant) besides it's a niche game that few people like but now we don't have much choice

[opaque valve]

But OW is good. I like play it. A knows many people witch like it too...

And about you pack opening... REALLY BEST WAY FOR ILV?

Didn't Fillow send a message yesterday that WAVE 2 sales were already tragic and less than half of WAVE 1?
What do you expect from WAVE 3? That suddenly sales will be 10 times higher?
And if you do the same opening instead of OW, that it will make another 10x bigger sales?
What kind of model is this? I would also smoke...

[pale cargo]

of course it does cost creating and maintaining events like christmas events.
There's usually a lot of work going into that.
Which needs people doing that and those people need to get paid.
I do follow other projects and many have more news on their homepage/socials indeed, but many news of those are not worth to be notified aswell.

[eternal pier]

No, it's temporary, it's time saved to make better games later., 🙏

[opaque valve]

We (this game) have daily mission, we have milestones... All it would take is a few badges and a quick balance adjustment and you have a nice fun element that will keep players in the game. Even without drops. Like other games have.

[eternal pier]

It's funny a few hours later you're bored

[opaque valve]

Yes, temporally... as soon as possible... soon... closed 🙂

it's nothing we don't know from other projects/games 🙂

[opaque valve]

Why do all games have missions/events/badges where you don't even get anything for playing and just pay?
It's a very simple psychology here...

[pale cargo]

I feel there are lots of this Little things which doesn't seem to take much work on a first glimps.
So it's a question of priorities then aswell and a lot of little things here and there is in the end a big workload in total aswell.

[eternal pier]

They are all data, they are professionals, I am too invested, I have no choice, I have to trust the team, 😭

[opaque valve]

OK... Is it cheaper... :
Pay (move) 1 coordinator which "rebalance points of Milestones and daily quest + make some "pictures with stars and medals" - and it doesn't even require programming knowledge if you have a reasonable interface.
OR throw in the trash all money (30M USD?) invested to OW developement?

OR monthly sending 4000 USD to "content creator" on twitch/youtube?

[opaque valve]

If I invest in something, why on earth should I believe blindly?
Where is the data? Why is it not public?
On the contrary, I see data that Wave 2 (opening packages) was unsuccessful (half than wave 1). Now Wave 3 awaits us ... and at the same time "soon after" New Wave instead of OW

Will people really continue to pour money blindly?

Or will each wave be smaller and smaller ... and instead of a game we have a falling plane (Ponzi) ?

[pale cargo]

I don't think it's a good idea to trash OW, i also think it was clearly stated more than once that this is not the intention.
A also wouldn't take OW offline, i would let it be as it is.
I wouldn't spend a dime on marketing until Arena is in a stable state and somewhat balanced.
I think it's a good idea to focus on one game and try to put it in a mainstream ready state asap.
But that's just me as a player of all games, investor, and IP lover.

[earnest pagoda]

There will be no more viewers for content creator if there is no overworld. Who would want to watch opening packs? Maybe there will be some few viewers to see what they pulled from the packs but it will take only minutes Unlike overworld it will take some time or even hours for viewers to stick around if there are more interesting things in overworld to see.

[opaque valve]

"content creator" it is paid regardless of whether anyone watches it or not. It is "ongoing marketing operating expenses" paid from ILV funds 🙂
I If I remember correctly, it's 3-4 thousand USD per month?

[earnest pagoda]

How is illuvium going to benefit from content creators if there is less or no viewers? I don't think illuvium devs will spend that much money for content creators for nothing

[opaque valve]

Thanks. Hope OW not be closed... finally or temporally.

if I can speak for myself and the community I know...

Yes, one game focun can be.

Let it be Arena - Leviathan.
(although I would prefer OW multiplayer like it was in the leaked video)
But Leviathan itself will increase interest in monsters and leveling from OW, so there wouldn't necessarily have to be much change there right away.

But please fix the BUGs, preferably also features for Illuvidex, see: https://discord.com/channels/760344898200666112/1307292276174622812
Those BUGS have been reported since July.
And at least once a week I come across a person who doesn't know how and where to accept an offer, when it's wrong it says "insufficient funds" error.

[pale cargo]

I agree, Bug fixes and stabalizing Systems + qol Updates for existing Systems Like the dex would have highest priority for me

[opaque valve]

If you need help, I can help with prepare some improvements / modifications with daily quest/milestones for example... I really feel sorry that nothing is happening and the game is slowly heading towards a total bottom in terms of activity...

[spare ibex]

Right please bear with me but ….

The overworld solution is actually really simple… you need to have a campaign locked and loaded so that we can all do both solo and multiplayer campaigns. HOWEVER you will need certain illuvials to get through certain stages. This helps capture rates AND the need to pop into overworld. There will be levels where you will need MULTIPLE ILLUVIALS and at certain levels to defeat ‘that guy’ in arena or get through a ‘part of the map’ in campaign.

The next point .. the loopbox of over-world currently doesn’t really pull you in. you need fuel, you need to enter and then it’s running around for ages to get something maybe, and for what? SO overworld realistically needs to HAVE MORE INTERACTIVE aspects within the maps, other NPCs to fight, more complicated UIs for certain illuvials.. why isn’t ramphyre flying and burning things… different capture tactics… sneaking up on to a rare S3 T5. If you fail then they leave. These need implementing to make you want to get into overworld.

ILLUVIALS NEED TO FIGHT BACK. There is literally 0 interaction at the moment between this world I’m meant to be living on and what I’m trying to capture to survive. I’m not befriending these things I’m literally just farming them and it’s hollow. Where’s the struggle? From both my end and their end? Again a campaign will really help with this.

BEYOND IS CARD PACKS. We’ve already got a game where you buy, open and enjoy collectibles … the notion of card packs makes 0 sense in overworld.

Other in game items and EASTER EGGS…as the world gets more interactive then disk fragments, lottery tickets, battle board puzzle pieces need to incentivise me to jump in. Telling people they can earn ILV is THE WORST incentive scheme as it just creates farmers. Let’s just say I shoot the dragon eye in bright land steppes and that’s a hidden Easter egg, we can all share it, enjoy it and talk about it, live stream it and all go and jump on to do it ourselves. Plus recognition ect

[eternal pier]

the map was not designed for an rpg....

[spare ibex]

PART 2: the lore suggests we are being chased right? And attacked? Looked for… I dunno …but I think after a certain time in the map OUR NEMESIS should appear and we have to take them out before they take us out otherwise we die and then we are sent back to our home obelisk.

Oh and WHEN WE DIE WE DIE, I’ve died on purpose just to get full health back, running low on health should come with consequences … why can I die endlessly with no issues,, this can help with drone additions (if you die then you come back once free of consequences) … yes there is money tied to the runs so this can only occur after 45mins of game time? Random .. whatever.

Setting and rising sunlight.. small feature if it doesn’t make the game lag but certain illuvials can come out at night some in the day ect.

ADDITIONAL WEAPONS… I want to be able to go into a dark cave, light a flare, look for a creature, flashbang and stun a creature/ have greater interaction with trying to capture these mythical creatures. We’re trying to believe we’re in a foreign world … but they all act the same, run the same and respond the same… no tactics really to capture them just…. ‘Go again’

If we have landed on a massive unknown planet and these things are meant to be OGs it’s going to take tonnes of different methods to capture them

[eternal pier]

illuvium = tft Unfortunately

https://tenor.com/view/attack-fight-strategy-luxxbunny-online-gaming-gif-14569461

[mossy siren]

That sounds dope. Does this involve turn based combat or real time (ie Palworld)

[spare ibex]

So it’s hard to explain all my thoughts on here but it would depend

It could be an arena battle sure, it would be better in overworld programmed as an NPC

[mossy siren]

I strongly prefer real time. I like Pokemon DESPITE the turn based system. It’s merely something I put up with if the game is good enough

[spare ibex]

Imagine being chased by your bounty hunter about to ruin your run, you would hide behind mushrooms, fly away to hide from him

[mossy siren]

But I’d think turn based is easier to implement or work with

[spare ibex]

I have to be clear, the core fundamentals of the game are sound and the game is AAA in graphics. Overworld hasn’t hit because realistically it’s not finished but with even 25% of these suggestions implemented I’m in for the long haul

A fun game where I can earn and finish a quest and have layers of interactive components of arena, overworld and zero make total sense. We just need more!

[spare ibex]

Campaigns can occur outside of overworld but be intertwined with you activity

The interactivity of the open world though would be programmable

The points and milestones IMO are solid and good incentives, battle boards are on point as are stickers. The marketing and releases as a whole is great in terms of timing and the DAO is revolutionary for a game.

The thing is ….this type of game doesn’t appeal to the casual player at the moment. The arena battles are for hardcore gamers and your average joe simply doesn’t have the time, it’s so complex, you need to know crypto, all the nuances of the game speak, the controls … a simple campaign / multi campaign would sort this.

Thankyou and goodnight (Chinese arrived)

[drifting knot]

Lot of great ideas! I would definitely love to see a lot of these implemented in some shape or form.

the notion of card packs makes 0 sense in overworld

I agree. Pack opening should be contained within the Arena game and remain separate to OW. Packs do not have any purpose being in OW.

I also think it would be a good idea to begin by offering a limited deck for the free mode, with the ability to open "x" amount of free packs per day to help build your collection and improve your team. Players could unlock more packs by hitting certain achievements/milestones within the Arena and hitting certain collection goals.
This would provide a good sense of progression and give people a really good feel of openings packs, collecting and competing without having to spend anything.

The focus then becomes on converting as many players over to Leviathan from the free mode as possible.

[spare ibex]

Alexa - keep overworld open, pause the minting of new illuvitars so you don’t farm them into oblivion, everything becomes free to play and zero land owners get to dictate the price of fuel next time round when overworld is back in a playable state. @orchid seal has delivered overworld as promised and we can play this 1st iteration until the next one is ready to play.

I agree right now the focus should be beyond and arena. People can keep what they have currently caught and still hop in to play all tiers for free until the minting process is started again.

[drifting knot]

Alexa - keep overworld open

It's only my opinion, I have zero influence.
In all likelihood, OW will stay open and I would support that. I am simply stating what I would do .

[spare ibex]

Of course my friend I’m simply agreeing and trying to appease the OW users and not throw a tonne of development away.

[spare ibex]

I still don’t see why we can’t do this with beyond packs

[drifting knot]

No worries. To be clear though, it is a pause that I am advocating for. None of the development of OW should go to waste. The potential is incredible.
It's more of a timing thing right now and a team that is spread thin.

[spare ibex]

Yes I understood that and agree, you were talking about redirecting resources which I also think is a solid proposition. OW needs work and as a first release it’s a great start there’s just lots to add. ☺️🧡

[drifting knot]

That is where we differ as I think the resources are best spent into Arena.
Perfectly fine to disagree though, we all only want the best, we just have different views on how to achieve it.

It does seem that we haven't got the resources available to get both Arena and OW in a state that is ready for mass market, but we could get one of them there and as ultimately the ecosystem depends so heavily on the demand from the competitive scene, Arena needs to be the focus.
Maybe i'm totally wrong and there is another way. I am very interested to see the IIP though and the ideas that are presented. Could completely change my perspective.

[spare ibex]

Sorry I’m not being clear. My thoughts would be:

• Pause OW but let people play for free
• Redirect to working concepts
• Get a team to do OW development in the background.
• implement suggested changes
• rerelease within the next year/ 1.5 years

[hasty spindle]

Waht do you mean play free? Capture iluvs free?

[spare ibex]

I mean you pause OW minting of illuvials and just play for fun until the updates come

[trim crypt]

I've been thinking a lot more on this. . If we keep it at the same rates it won't be long before people realize they are blowing through money and getting nothing that they want. It will feel even worse than OW.

However, I don't actually want to see it become easier to find high stats though or to get rare Illuvials.

I do think stats have too high of value compared to an Illuvial's experience. People who grind (aka spending money to play) up their Illuvial should have an advantage. I would have actually preferred a game that when you caught the Illuvial they ALL started at 0 stats and you had to play them in different ways to increase the stats. Luck of finding an Illuvial should not get you a better one than hours playing and paying. I know that currently we can level them up and they are better but I also have seen some talk about making the experience worth less.

[dusk thunder]

I agree with this, as long as it happens AFTER Gauntlet has been fully fleshed out, polished, and is ready for the masses. This is THE most important priority for Illuvium at the moment I think. After that I would love to see work on Overworld and make it what it can be.

[dusk thunder]

Yeah, we’ve found ourselves in a bit of a pickle.

I agree that playing with your Illuvials should yield the ultimate reward. It’s similar to Pokémon, where you played with your favorite monsters from start to finish, and levels were the biggest metric. IVs and EVs were just background mechanics that pro players used to min-max their competitive decks.

[hybrid pebble]

Thank you for your comments, but we’re forgetting to compare with other successful games and are just throwing random ideas here and there. Out of 40 comments, only 1 contributed to this point: "in Pokémon cards, there are people who can’t even dream of having certain Pokémon because of their extreme rarity." Also: I don’t understand this urge to destroy the game so quickly; everyone is shouting in unison, “let what’s perfect become ordinary.” Games that make rare items easy to get also tend to reset every two years, like World of Warcraft, while games that make rarity easy but very costly have an incredible and flawless burning system, like EVE Online or Albion Online.

Conclusion: Making rare items common leads to either a reset of your game or a massive burn, even of things that are already perfect (this is seen in many big, successful games).

PVP Stats came up with an incredible idea for a PvP arena where, if you lose, you lose two Illuvials: one is burned, and the other goes to your opponent. Best regards.

[opaque valve]

"PVP Stats came up with an incredible idea for a PvP arena where, if you lose, you lose two Illuvials: one is burned, and the other goes to your opponent. Best regards."
Yes, perfect random... one time loose shit rota... and in second battle burn DARK HOLO RHAMPHYRE +300 stats ... because I had client crash in battle...
Not seems as good idea...

But in other I agree with you... "The best should be the best and rare... any easy acquisition of the elite is wrong."

[hybrid pebble]

If you use as an argument that an idea is bad because the client can fail, then no idea makes real sense. The problem isn't the idea but the game's servers. It's important to differentiate an excellent idea from the poor state of a server. Albion Online and EVE Online apply this concept and have excellent servers. Online gambling games implement it and also have great servers. And another thing: losing a Tier 5 Stage 3 dark holo is perfectly fine if that was what you chose to risk in the first place.

[opaque valve]

I partly agree, partly it would require a lot of work not only on the servers, but also on the management options, what Iluvals should go into battle (so that it doesn't fall out of the wallet "accidentally") and the like...
Personally I don't like uncontrollable random destructive events.
And when it comes to mass adoption, there are a lot of arguments that there is a pay wall and that buying costs money... and thus the game will deprive beginners of that money. This concept fits more into RPG/MMORPG than TFT arena, plus with a lousy team management option.

As a hard core idea is not bad... but I don't think it's appropriate to solve it sooner than in 1-2 years, after the base, market, statistics, team management tools, etc. have stabilized...
With the way things are currently not getting better and the website and game client are being ignored from the perspective of "wallet" management - such a mechanism is a recipe for absolute disaster. Now.

[eternal pier]

in pokemon you can modify your ev and iv with techniques it's not like illuvium where it's impossible to have perfect illuvial... illuvium it discourages so much to continue

the only real rarity should just be holo and dark holo

we should all have the possibility with a lot of hours of play to have perfect statistics

@orchid seal @cosmic ridge we need big changes to attract and motivate players to grind 🎮

[spare ibex]

Knee jerking isn’t the answer though. Overworld is a great base layer for a game to be built on

[covert hull]

the reality is overworld doesn't even matter at this point, if the f2p gauntlet doesn't bring in players nothing other than money will

[pale cargo]

i got sold on the vision the IP had.
Overworld and Zero at heart and 10 games connected.
You would stop advertise that dream and just say here's a new autobattler?

[covert hull]

the vision doesn't hold without the autobattler is the thing

they either nail gauntlet so well people will want to farm mons for leviathan or they pull some magic out of nowhere with some other game mode but if one of those 2 don't happen overworld is useless

[spare ibex]

Seriously… campaigns would solve it 40% if the lore is there / ready then .. we need to build

[mossy siren]

Campaign as in challenges or an actual campaign?

Is the OW large enough/filled with enough interesting things for a legit campaign?

[opaque valve]

You can have perfect Illuvials... need much of hours... But you can 🙂

Admins choose rarity for 6x50 1:46656 ... Yes, it is more rarity than Dark Holo... but that makes sense... Really master Illuviall is really rarity.... DH is "just skin" 🙂

[opaque valve]

In my opinion: No 🙂
We can have "stars", "medals" and "rankings"... in style of Milestones or Daily missions ... as "Catch all of T4S2" etc... But really good campaign we cannot have in this games now.
I cannot imagine good campaign (NOW!) in Arena or OW...

[spare ibex]

A campaign, outside of Overworld, that starts in space, that you can play after your intro phase. But it will NEED you to jump into overworld

If you don’t have the captured illuvitar then you need to go and capture it… can’t find it … got to go again

[opaque valve]

Yes, thas seems as Daily missions or Milestones in Season 1 ... I probably wouldn't call this a campaign... But if this is a campaign for you, then OK, more campaigns 🙂

[trim crypt]

I am one of the very few here who has never played Pokémon but that sounds like it would be preferable. I have Steve my Sear and I work on leveling him up but then I kind of wonder why I am when I have seen people just randomly get one that will be so much better.

[spare ibex]

You’re not understanding me but that’s fine. It would be an rpg with you summoning, fighting and exploring the whole world. But you won’t be able to access the next stage of the campaign unless your have X illuvial and X illuvial because you need to put out a fire with axel or fly on a bird ect ect

I let’s say there is 100 levels, 35 of them require special conditions. Weapons, illuvials ect

Then by completing the solo campaign you unlock multiplayer with a similar campaign but different

[opaque valve]

OK, but it isnt "small changes"... This is absolut new RPG game 🙂
Next 30M USD of developement? 😉

[spare ibex]

Well that’s only half of my pitch 😂

If you read all my comments I never insinuated that this was ‘small’

But the trading would pick up for hardcore gamers, the uptick in players would be big, the overworld usage would increase it would complete the entire experience

All the games are great but fragmented and the points I’m trying to make essentially complete the whole economy

[mossy siren]

I think this is a really creative way to implement progression in maps/levels. That being said, I don’t see anything remotely that intensive happening

[drifting knot]

I remember posting a similar idea a while back.
Needing a Rhamphyre to scale a tall mountain that is otherwise unreachable.
Needing a Geyyser to access an underwater cavern that would again be otherwise unaccesible.
Needing a Titanor to blast through a set of boulders to access a giant cave structure.
Really love the idea of needing the illuvials themselves to unlock and explore the map, not only that but you riding them as they do it.

[orchid seal]

Whether it be pack opening or drone runs, the issue is the time it takes currently to obtain illuvials.

In the free mode you have all the illuvials but they are base stats and level. Which incentivises people to own them because they will be more powerful in leviathan when playing the different games.

The only argument I had with keeping the Overworld Open is that retention is really low right now. So is it better to have new players wait until it reopens and in the meantime buy packs, or keep it open and have lots of players churn while we are developing the new features 🤔

[covert hull]

Can you try increasing the amount of good stats in a run and see if that does anything to increase player numbers and retention?

[opaque valve]

will the depreciation of already cheap top stats really lead to improvement and increase in player numbers?
Today I bought a T1S3 300 for 50 USD...

[covert hull]

you got scammed then, i have no idea if it's gonna increase numbers or not, but i can't know without trying

[hybrid pebble]

Please don’t spam. Saying it was a scam doesn’t contribute anything to the feedback, and a Stage 3, 300 TH 1 shouldn’t cost less than $100, so they made a great purchase.

[opaque valve]

So, there's been a lot of talk about drone packs/autoruns here for a long time...

Is there a concept that could be seriously discussed instead of shots in the dark? What's your (team's?) idea?

A drone will run out, 20 encounters will come out, I'll choose 5 of them to fight, look at the stats and throw a shard or not? Or do I just open the pack and get 5 Illuvials with stats corresponding to the normal probability? (= will I need to buy about 11 thousand packs to get one +300 Illuvialls?)
Or do I get 5 Illuvialls; with guarantee 1 have +300, 2 at least 4x50 and 2 being "bad"? Because that's how some people here imagine it, I think...

And we don't actually know what we're supposed to imagine and what we're discussing as a possible change...

[opaque valve]

https://illuvidex.illuvium.io/asset/0x205634b541080afff3bbfe02dcc89f8fa8a1f1d4/1088498
How scam?

It sounds like logic to me: Until I break an egg, I won't know if it could have hatched into a chicken...

Well, the answer is simple... once broken, it won't hatch 🙂

[hybrid pebble]

Games with item burning or resetting allow players to easily get amazing things by opening packs. If an item is permanent, accessories are added to make it potentially more powerful, with as many as 15 or 20 accessories, each with its own tier and level. However, having a permanent NFT without burning, resetting, or accessories, and that is easy to obtain, would lead to the game being declared dead in just a few years.

[opaque valve]

"would lead to the game being declared dead in just a few years." ... More like months... 🙂

That's why I see a huge push here to launch packages... but absolutely no idea what the more complex idea behind these packages is! 😦

All I hear about this system is that "Pokémon are selling and making a lot of money."

[civic aspen]

In my opinion it's better to pause OW until it's fully developed/polished, and once it is release it as an expansion to the current content, in order to generate hype and interest into it once it's ready, while also minimizing the confusion and other downsides by having both pack openings and an unfinished OW at the same time.

But there are current members who enjoy OW, so will be a tough decision ahead for you.

[opaque valve]

Say it all the time…. need numbers, not feelings…

Tier 1-5 (not include T0):
On server are:
Total: 389515 Illuvials
Dark Holo: 3385 (1%)
+300 stats: 323 (0,1% !)
+300 Dark Holo: 7 (0,002% !! )

+300 is 10x rarer than Dark Holo.
(after excluding fusion even about 100x rarer! )

It was like that from the beginning and it was the intention (or a complete lack of math for 10 year olds).

I'm for it to be rarer... Some games have Legendary Items that have the best bonuses (for example ultimate weapons/armor) and there are always extremely limited quantities of them on the server - single-units of each at most... especially in RPG games.
It's a system that is beautiful, functional and attracts people to play.

And you just want to have it!
At least one... ! And then at least 300 Holo... And then at least 10x 300 ... ... !
That's what makes games addictive!

Dreams of meeting a player in Leviathan with a full 300 deck are unrealistic wet dreams. Only 40% of Illuvialls currently exist on the entire server with 300% stats!

What discourages them the most are the BUGs and the uncertainty of what will happen to their equipment in the coming days 🙂

[hybrid pebble]

I also agree with making the rare even rarer. I’m interested in having a perfect item truly be something incredible, a holo be an immense achievement, and a dark holo be beyond even our wildest dreams. The only thing we ask is for the game to be enjoyable and bearable while we strive for it.
Currently, thanks to the features, it's easy for those who play a lot to obtain perfects, even holos. But if packs are implemented, they should increase the rarity, because with the current probability, I believe some whales could build a team of perfects in a single day and of perfect dark holos in a month.

[prime rivet]

Pokemon tcg and Pokemon Go have a good model. The most rare Pokemon are able to be found/pulled. They are rare but not stupid rare.
You can make rare illuvials incredibly difficult to find/get... but then you'll just continue making the game no fun. Part of the joy of Pokemon is that you CAN pull an ultra rare Charizard or Mewtwo and not just one or two people in the world can have it. Y'all keep thinking hyper rarity is the pinnacle of value... bring in a lot of players that have an emotional attachment to the cards/nfts then you create deeper value.

If there's only 2 of something in existence it does't make it valuable if no one cares about it

[orchid seal]

We first designed Automated drone runs pre launch, then it got voted down, now people realise that we need the feature. Auto runs need to generate 20% less value than a player manually doing a run.

It is the first thing the web team will work on after beyond is released.

[opaque valve]

A bit of an evasive answer...

I'll try again:
Will the stats and H / DH parameters be the same as in OW?
So about <1% of DH spawn rate per map (you know exact numbers, me not, just guessing from practice)
The chance of 6x50 stats will be the same 1:46565? (mathematically 1: 6 : 6 : 6 : 6 : 6 : 6)

Other parameters you consider?
For example, the price of FUEL, etc.?

[cloud jackal]

So essentially auto runs are 20% more expency . Makes sense if its more expensive and its random rather than targeted i think you have a GREAT place to have both auto runs and Overworld.

Each new Game should be Optional not Required Games need to be Indepenet of eachother or it becomes not an additional thing but a requirement you have to do and that means you lose some possible players. Like when you HAD to do certain rep grind quest in WOW you hated them but you didn't have an option but to play that stupid mini game to get your rep up now imagine that but with OW where you LOVE auto battlers but you have to GO run a HOURS AND HOURS in OW . Its a take away not a benfit right now. Drone runs are a great idea

[opaque valve]

Please compare the amount of Charizards / amount of players
And then the amount of 300 stats / amount of players...

If OW is currently playing around 100 players a day... logically 100 Charizards are not "dropping" a day...

[covert hull]

what's the amount of max 5 stats without MS?

[opaque valve]

863 T1 - T5

Which is interesting... and statistically it doesn't match... (323x 300 + 540 5x50 + movevent 0-40, TOTAL 863)

but it's clear that people aren't trying so hard for 5x50 MAIN STATS... People just want 6x50! Nice! I was personally pleased :)

[orchid seal]

I'll say it again, the value of an autorun should be 20% less than a manual run.
Meaning, whatever the avg value manual player collects we should aim for the autorun players to receive 20% less.

[covert hull]

but how do you determine "the value" in autoruns, are you gonna give a whole bunch of options and the player can only pick 4k energy worth? cuz if everything he gets is forced on the player then how do you guarantee that he gets the value. Because in manual runs 90%~ of everything in the run is useless bloat and there's basically 1-2 good illuvials and 2 good rocks and 2 good plants

[opaque valve]

Sorry, this is not again an answer for my question...

For cca 2 weeks you've been pushing autorun against IIP 53. So be it.

So why don't you say clearly here, or as a draft IIP, what its planned parameters are? You should already know that, right?

For example:
Autorun: DH occurrence: x%, H occurrence: x%,
Stat occurrence: It will be mathematically the same as in OW, i.e. 1:46656.
OW now have: DH occurrence: x%, H occurrence: x%,
Stat occurrence: It will be mathematically the same as in OW, i.e. 1:46656.

Is it hard to say it directly?

Or is it mainly about secretly redesigning the system so that there is 5x60 in every 10 packs? That's something completely different from what you're trying to present here...

[orchid seal]

It hasn't been confirmed yet. Auto drone runs will be an IIP. But I'm getting really sick of your insinuating conspiracy theories dude.

[cloud jackal]

Seriously he has said mutiple Times that it will be 20% of what aan average run produces. I think the stat rolls will be the same but proably 20% less chance to get illuvals so average run gets 5 illuvials drone gets 4 . Then the stats are rolled . I mean the thing you have to take into account is players target the must valuable thing how iwll the drone choose what to target just by rarity ?

[drifting knot]

Are the auto drone runs the disk/pack opening experience that have been discussed a lot recently?

Will this only be accessible in OW?

If this is the case, players will still be unable to access Leviathan without going into OW first or purchasing direct from marketplace. Is this not too large of a barrier to attract new players that just want to jump straight in?

[orchid seal]

Yes, this is the "pack opening" I have been discussing. There is some work in bringing it into the client, likely it will start on web and there will be links from both OW and Arena, then, eventually it will make it in game

[covert hull]

actually wait, are auto runs gonna be just illuvials?

[drifting knot]

Sounds good!

[orchid seal]

Illuvials, weapons, and suits is being discussed

[covert hull]

ok that sounds better, i was expecting you'd be getting a bunch of ores and plants with 3 w/e illuvials

[cloud jackal]

would it be weapons and suits or Matterials to Craft weapons and suits.... See that can be a hard one but since you have no need to own suits unless your playing levithan then i don't see a problem just giving mats

[covert hull]

the problem is you can't highroll mats, so there's 0 difference between buying on market, but you can highroll items

[opaque valve]

That's what bothers me... they're still talking about a 20% disadvantage, but there's no real idea what the idea is...

Nobody wants "confirmed data", but there's a discussion about Autorun, but no one has any idea what's behind it... What kind of average run is being considered? With bonus drones? Without?

How much average energy will be taken? 4000? 4900? (max rifts), 4600? (3 rifts)?
Will illuvials be caught in shards, will there be an "arena fight", or will they simply be minted?
These are things that can be discussed freely in advance before it goes into the IIP, right?
That's why there's so much speculation, distaste and negation.

After all, if this is supposed to be the main rescue idea and significantly change the direction of ILV and OW, then perhaps there is already a developed idea for this, perhaps with several variants, right?

[orchid seal]

Let me make this really simple for you.

There are two options to acquire an illuvial.

Option 1:
You do exactly as you are now in the Overworld.

Option 2:
You do it automatically and it costs you 20% more.

The "details* you are after will come out in an ideas thread and then you can discuss until your heart is content.

[full lintel]

Did i understand it correctly? Drone runs cost 20% more and 20% less value? Sounds like dont bother implementing it then. I can deal w/ 20% less but same price. You're gonna discourage pack openers in the get go

[civic aspen]

It costs 20% more by providing 20% less value, it's not both.

[orchid seal]

This

[hybrid pebble]

Just let me ask this: Why does scanning cost three times more, while opening packs only costs 20%? Thank you for your response

[faint cypress]

I will back this one up a bit, after playing OW with the scan feature it's hard to go back. The scan feature gives a true sense of pack opening and I get excited to start a new travel and see what I have in the map instead of having to traverse the entire map hoping I don't miss an illuvial.

[hybrid pebble]

Exactly, I think right now it's a great idea to stimulate this mode; no one really talks about it

[pale cargo]

never activated it since the movement actually is a small percentage of time spent per run even if you want to discover the whole map and check all Illuvials. (Abyssal basin is excluded in this statement 😄 )
Most time is loading screen, battle preparation and the battle itself.

[faint cypress]

it's not only the movement, it shows the ergon rifts and the large deposits as well.

I hope it's a bug, cause it sure is annoying on the normal runs to find the ergon rifts and then they disappearing from the map after entering an encounter.

[pale cargo]

yea, thats for sure annoying (and is a bug team knows about if i remember right) but you remember easely where like 3 or 4 of those ergon rifts where... all additional are insignificant peanuts anyways
and the large deposits you see while jumping through the map aswell.
i don't doubt the comfort, but it's no way worth what it's priced, maybe if there was no heatmap...

[faint cypress]

well that's the thing I need 6 ergons if I want to capture 10 illuvials per run. As for the large deposits I sometimes miss them. Currently I always use the scan on abyssal.

It's just better 😅
and the price doesn't make a difference at these levels.

[pale cargo]

naa i don't do this to myself 😄
I catch the illuvials i want and when energy is low and deathglobe starts, i get the rifts so i can get those big deposits/consumeables/green deposits i need anyways.

[covert hull]

the thing is unless you're on abysal it's insanely easy to just put a teleporter on the eon clusters

[pale cargo]

yup

[faint cypress]

yes the 2 other regions I don't use. They're waay easier to do.

[pale cargo]

i did couple AB runs last weekend because i still don't have a geyser... oh boy, that map... i was like 300% (NOT exaggerating for effect) less efficient.

[faint cypress]

my point exactly 😅

[pale cargo]

what?
just don't run that map and save the insane scanner costs

[faint cypress]

yeah but I like to rotate between all regions to keep the illuvial types balanced 😅

[pale cargo]

https://tenor.com/view/joker-fair-enough-gif-26167449

[opaque valve]

Yes, rotating map is best 🙂 It's a gaming experience .... not boring farming over and over again. My favorite are Basin and Fire 🙂

[opaque valve]

I have no problem with loading... but yes, need very strong PC 😦
But new "SPACE" is annoying 😦

[mossy siren]

Is it an optimization issue?

[opaque valve]

Loading? I think yes. "Lower graphics quality doesnt help with it on 9-month old PC..."
New "5 second SPACE" after battle etc... ? No, this is (in my opinion) bad idea and I think the status 2 months ago would be the best.

[umbral wraith]

Here is my feed back for OW.

I want to switch the money revenue from farming the players themselves to farming the players sales.

#1302316206895792218 message

TLDR:

• make only energy delpletw when catching
• all mining becomes free energy uses
• there is a pro and con list in the link
• if we can bundles NFts I’d buy 1000 t0 ring nuts right now

This way the play can spend hours grinding have no luck catching and still make some change in the side. Then the DAO gets thier revenue off those sells. Much better micro transactions

Edit:
thought about this more, and it my idea like up with an exchange. Which in my opinion is a win-win. Players get money, and the DAO takes x% off each transaction.

[high lodge]

Can leave it open for people like me who still play OW everyday but not necessary to get illuvials. Kind of like ascendant where it's hidden but those who still play have access to it. Serious question: currently in OW players can farm stage 0 runs for free and are able to get super rare holos and DH good Stat illuvials which are quite expensive or so i am told... will this be possible with a pack opening model?

[orchid seal]

I don't believe there will be free Auto Drone runs

[high lodge]

All the more reason to leave OW up and running for the die hards and try hards such as myself

[drifting knot]

It does appear as though OW will be staying open with the option for auto drone runs along side.
As auto drone runs will be more costly, there will be a benefit to participating in OW runs.

[orchid seal]

We are going to keep it open

[spare ibex]

why not stop the minting? keep the world open, let people collect them when they want and make the game totally free, develop a campaign (which is needed anyway) and integrate campaigns and Overworld when we have it developed.

[spare ibex]

implement this too if you feel it will help but im begging you for a big Openworld rpg with all the development you have built it would be a shame to see OW stop

[orchid seal]

OW is not going to stop. The only thing mentioned was a pause. But building the Overworld out with the many new features we have announced is happening.

[pallid kelp]

also put a timer on it, not so extreme as a full OW run but like 10 minutes or so for each slot. You start with 2 slots.....

[orchid seal]

It will me be much faster than 10 minutes. Ideally 30 seconds or under. And possibly the ability to instantly skip

[civic aspen]

Would be great if we introduce a burning mechanism for the unwanted stuff at the same time drone runs are released. Is that in the realm of possibilities? Both would compliment each other nicely

[proud leaf]

And please make it payable with fuel.

[pallid kelp]

ah ok; so someone who has more money can grind stuff faster this way. He can like do 180 runs via the packopening instead of one full OW run of like an half hour. Think you need some other advantage of doing the full OW run then I guess but that is my opinion 🙂

[orchid seal]

We're focused on Arena atm and the people who aren't are working on the new OW features. A burn mechanic will come at some stage though

[orchid seal]

Yes

[orchid seal]

You will get less value if you do it automatically. It's also much easier to grab the things you specifically need if you do it manually. I think that's fine

[pallid kelp]

also true, thanks for the info. We will see the details later on I guess. Keep building this fantastic game. (except for my tier 5 luck, just cant catch any hahaha, had to buy one to at least have one.)

[vapid loom]

Make a Mega Run (like Beyond) with guaranteed rares and better hit rates. Currently it’s like opening a Standard disk every run but spending 1 hour to open the disk. It’s just stupid.

[hybrid pebble]

Please consider not only the execution time of an Overworld run but also the effort it takes to enter and exit battles. I know it can be overlooked, but just dealing with the loading screen is already an exercise in extreme patience. Thank you very much.

[uncut compass]

Reading up on your thoughts on this @orchid seal. I was against closing OW, but now understand your rationale for a temporary closure. Just to clarify would the temporary closure correspond with the rollout of Breach? If so, it wouldn't be a true closure, right? In any case, I think you have convinced me that a temporary closure while new features are added (multiplayer and quests) could be a good move. I could see a big reopening with a new region unlock as well.

[drifting knot]

It looks as though a temporary closure is off the table now.

[gleaming pawn]

I don’t know how you are going to implement these automated drone runs, but I have a suggestion/comment. In an OW you can see the stats of 120 illuvials before u decide to capture any. U have agency. Sometimes 3-4 illuvials are worth capturing, other times 6-7. In these automated OW runs, there should be some agency, not complete rng. I know it has been mentioned it would have 20% less value or cost 20% more. But then, there needs to be some selection agency, similar to an OW run. Otherwise, the market will be flooded with bad-mid stat illuvials with close to 0 value. You could make these automated runs with selection ; entering a wake, you see 10 illuvials, then u can pick one (the one with best stats) or you could pass, then u move on to the next wake. And repeat for 10-12 times, similar to an OW run. With a total selection of let’s say up to 7 illuvials. If it is not in a similar format, there is no way one could compare the two types of “runs” in terms of value/cost. if automated drone runs are complete RNG and u get 7 illuvials in a “pack” with random stats and OW is kept as it is (where you can select 7 illuvials with the best stats from a selection of 120), I bet there will be sold very few packs. OW runs, despite being painful and taking 1 hour per run, would offer far more value in terms of the optionality u get through seeing stats. Super simple solution, just put all contents of an OW run in a pack. Enable people to choose up to 7 illuvials, the rest is handed out in ores, essences and gems. Make it 2-3 times as expensive as a normal OW run. Enable people to see the stats of all illuvials. People would gladly pay that, instead of going through 1 hour per OW run checking stats. The end result is the same, people save 99% time, and pay double/triple the price, a win/win if u ask me

[hybrid pebble]

Perfect

[cloud jackal]

I still believe the underlying Problem with Overworld is the lack of Demand for its Resources "Illuvials" , the Underlying problem with Zero is Lack of Demand for its Resources "Fuel and Blueprints" , I've thought a lot about it and i think attempting to make Levithan the investment model is very flawed. ( see Other Feedback on how to fix this ) , Burn Mechansim, Drone Runs and all these do not solve the problem. Attempting to make Levithan something new by changing stats and trying to move everyone into it is not going to work even if we add Drone runs. ( for the stat reason mentioned above) We need to Make Changes to Casual/Ranked Que to give uses for Illuvials before we start mass adoption. Then Auto Drone Runs have a good place and all Illuvials have a use case that doesn't include Destroying them

[cloud jackal]

This is a misunderstanding of How A game Makes money, F2P players only make money for a game if the convert to P2P players., the conversion rate varies on the ability to transfer people from your F2p To willing to spend money on the game. The current F2P model might generate SOME money through cosmetics but its so far removed from Levithan ( ownership model) that its really two seperate games. We would be better served by a higher cost of aquestion for players but a much higher conversionr ate of those players (Via they being better fit and the gap between Gauntlet and Levithan being Smaller). ( Ie if we spend 100k to get 50k Players but only .1 % conversion rate) I rather spend 100k to get 10k players with a 5% conversion rate becuase atleast in this scenario the 10k players have already invested as well )

[full lintel]

this is perfect otherwise forget automated runs.

[cloud jackal]

Just a Reminder the Fact that you could see stats was Not part of the Design and when the game goes to Overworld COMBAT not Autobatler Combat that feature / bug will be removed.

[prime rivet]

Will any type of fuel be able to be used for automated drone runs?

What about fusing? Still have to do that in OW... grinding XP is a grind...

[drifting knot]

You will be able to gain XP in Arena, OW and Zero (Gyms) eventually.

I believe fusing will remain an OW feature.

[cloud jackal]

Gaining XP seems like the easiest Burn Mechanic that could be added like in the next week, Burn the NFT add a base amount or transfer the current xp total from one illuvial to the next.

[drifting knot]

I have a suspicion that they don't want to burn so many NFT's (Could be wrong).
If everyone can just pick and choose which they want, we will only have high stat illuvials and not much else.
If they balance the stats correctly we should see demand come in for average stat illuvials, which will negate the need for a burning mechanism.
The value of mid to low stat illuvials is currently low and decreasing due to lack of demand.
The answer to increase value is simply increasing demand, not burning them all.

[orchid seal]

We will adjust the drop rates so you aren't just getting Tier 1 stage 1's in the drone run. It's not going to be as good as doing a run, but its near instant and that's the trade off. We can't turn it into something that takes 5-10 mins and has a whole bunch of agency and decision making. We need it to be incredibly simple, and fast, the one variable (for now) may be that you can choose which region to send your drone into. Kinda like a pokemon booster pack. Maybe later we can add the ability to filter and adjust setting for your drone run, but fow now, gotta keep it simple.

[hybrid pebble]

Will a package contain 120 Illuvials to choose from? If not, will it still be possible to see statistics before capturing in OW?

[cloud jackal]

The value of mid stat illuvials and all Can't Increase until there is a use case for them. What are you going to do with illuvials? You need either top tier illuvials to play levithan or you need 0 illuvials to play Gauntlet.

Also there is no need to worry about burning a TON that would be a great thing becuase when demand goes back up we would have to do more runs . spend more gas gets teh whole economy moving again

[drifting knot]

The use case is Arena (Leviathan).
The key to driving demand, I believe, is stat balancing.
If stats are more balanced there will be more demand for average stat illuvials, at least in the lower to mid range competition levels. Obviously as you get to the higher end the desire for higher stat illuvials will be much greater.
The bulk of the player base is likely to hover around the lower to mid range, there simply isn't the room for many at the top.

[cloud jackal]

Let me give you guys the gaming analogy one of my old Friends at Blizzard told me when we where discussing Illuvium. Right now it feels like we are going the direction. of Offering a Free to play Mario Kart Game and trying to use that to sell people On Becoming Nascar Drivers. The leap between our F2P game and our P2P game are so insanely different litterally 0 to 1000's we would not be far off on conversion rate if we just simply ONLY had levithan. More than fixing Stats in Levithan the long term health of the game needs to Relove around fixing a game mod for ALL illuvials not just starting with the Top tier ones. ( My opion is it should be casual Ranked that changes not Levithan) but somethings got to change because this is not a sustitanble model.

[cloud jackal]

So rather making changes to the thing we are giving away for free "Gauntlet" you want to water Down the "Top Tier Show off League" So littleraly the game design decision hear would be make those who are heavily invested trying to play at the top tier of a Collectiable games enjoyment Worse. Rather than make Ranked Gauntlet require an ownership model to climb? but free to play at low levels?

[hybrid pebble]

I've read a lot of what you've written, and you keep stating the obvious over and over. Everything you mention is exactly what’s being worked on now. I don't see the point of this.

[cloud jackal]

Theres a lot of problems adding ownerhsip to ranked could fix. One if we use normalized stats we would have some fine tune controls. Everyone could still play for free but those who own illuvials would get base stats of like ( all 3's in ranked gauntlet) this gives an advantage for ownership and at current cost anyone could be competive in ranked gauntlet for 20 usd

[cloud jackal]

But it's not ... Thats the problem we are going so far in the other direction of what standard game design decisions would deticate and if it IS . then our communication is horrible as I someone who keeps discord up and plays the game daily as i work haven't Seen ANY of it

[hybrid pebble]

Reading your new ideas seems like just a repetition of what I read every day. You really don't add anything.

[drifting knot]

I never specified that the changes were exclusive, I do agree there could be changes to the Gauntlet model too that could drastically improve it.

I think introducing ownership into the free model is possible without negatively effecting the overall experience, but yes I do believe the stat balancing is an absolute must as the bridge from free to paid would still be too vast.

Basically, you seem to want to modify one mode greatly and not modify the other at all, I would rather gently modify both as to not change either too drastically, but the bridge gets much easier to traverse, 50/50, rather than 0/100.

[cloud jackal]

For Example the Current Plan is to force everyone into two modes basically Free to Play Gauntlet with Cosmetics ( Which don't benfit the land holders or the overworld ) , and Gauntlet Levithan where only top tier stats will matter and you'll need a full team to climb. Rather than using tier based reward system we continue to see reward structures like the one in beyond where only the top 250 players on the leaderboard get rewards. This is the opposite of carrot on a stick next step reward structures that must common AAA studios have had success with. It should never be about getting someone to go all in but Next Step

[cloud jackal]

I think the idea of trying to modify levithan is fine , i've advacate for test net balance of the illuvial stats myself. proably needs to be somewhere between 4% to 8% on per stat point, I'm talking about the game desgin decision to try to make Levithan an "Everybody mode" which it never was that would require lots deeper changes to stats. I think stats proably should be the number 2 factor in levithan right under comp

[drifting knot]

I don't think Leviathan needs to be an everybody mode, it just needs to be accessible.

[hybrid pebble]

Your ideas are very disorganized or general, focus on something specific. Do you want to talk about rewards for ranking positions or the reward structure in general?

[cloud jackal]

An Idea doesn't have to be New to by Right. not sure what your trying to say you just sound like you wanta argue for some reason. But its simple the current model won't work its not a matter of Maybe. ( Baring some crazy Viral Luck) its not susitanable. Keiran has droped the 5% number on Conversion from Guantlet to Levithan thats nearly twice the indusrty average not happening with this model.

[cloud jackal]

Here (In this thread) where talking about the problem with Overworld and Thats Simple , there is No Mode that gives demand for illuvials. If We are going to try to make that levithan than there is no use case for 75% of the illuvials that will be farmed from pack opening. What is there to disagree with there

[drifting knot]

What is the industry average and how can you be so sure that it wont be achieved when it hasn't even gone live yet?

[drifting knot]

Stat balancing will go a long way in helping with this though and we do know they are working on that.

[cloud jackal]

the indusrty avearge is 2.5% with the indusry learding being Clash of clans who managed to optain 17.2% at the Height of their Popularty but there the ask was .99 Cents to count as a conversion. When Calculating likely conversion rate you have to ask what the minimum investment is what the maximum invest meant is, Whats the expected benfit and what the player is usee to spending to play the game. Also the rate of investment is considerd a series of smaller pruchases is much easier to purchase than All up Front cost even of a lesser amount. Based on other games i would put her target conversion rate with the current model between 0.1 %and 0.4%

[hasty spindle]

Yes agree but before pls compensation every body who did a lot of runs without aby captured pocemon coz it sucks stats

[hasty spindle]

I open secret you don't need full team only one deck 8 iluvs with -+ good stats for levi

[gleaming pawn]

People dont care much about tier and stage, a close to perfect Kukka is worth more than a Rhampite with mediocre stats in the marketplace, so if you are to adjust something it would then have to be the stats of minted illuvials from automated drone runs (given that you dont Get to select illuvials from a pool of 120) The two ways to acquire illuvials will be;One: do OW runs, which in the current format is not enjoyable, it offers agency and a lot of potential value, but takes 1 hour, and u have to enter and exit 40+ battles. Two: an automated drone run where u get 5 random illuvials (no selection) will have complete trash value compared to an OW run, unless stats are better on average. In my opinion, there should be a solution that is closer to how OW runs are done today for the automated runs, lest say you instruct your drone to return only the highest stat illuvials. (Which is basically solely what people doing ow runs are after). Make it 3x the price of a regular OW run, then boom u triple revenues from OW

[hybrid pebble]

Making it so the pack allows you to choose to return with the Illuvial with the best stats seems fair, but just one. Why one and not two? I'll explain:

In Overworld, reviewing 40 Illuvials doesn't take half an hour or an hour as everyone keeps repeating. I've done more than 200 runs myself, and I have experience—it takes two hours at the pace of someone experienced. So, for most people, let's say it takes 2–3 hours.

Now, add the factor that you don't know which Illuvial has the best stats, and you could end up leaving with none because you were hoping the next battle would have a better one.

Knowing this, is it fair for someone opening a pack to have the option of returning with two or even the top five Illuvials? Honestly, and speaking seriously, returning with just one of the 120 with the best stats is already like cheating. However, if it costs three times more, or even twice as much, I'm fine with it.

[hasty spindle]

If you want the best and cheaper, go grind like the workers do, if you want it fast, go buy what the workers caught on the market, if you want it in the middle, open packs and fuse it, not this, I'd like the best stats from auto runs)))

for those who don't want to do anything team are already thinking about how to nerf stats, so you also want better stats)
its so funny

[cloud jackal]

This is 100% Wrong, You Need Every Illuvial in Levithan Not having one is basically like an empty slot on your board. This is so wrong , thatss one of the key problems the game was designed for ascedant where you only need your team and now trying to be applied to gauntlet where to be competive you need everything cause you don't know what team your going to play goin gin

[pale cargo]

wouldn't you say that the 1% of the players who wana play competitive would go the long way trying to get the whole set with good stats, and the majority who just wants to have fun batteling on their level... and maybe trying to improve with either buy or farm here and there another good stat illuvial to smash on their current leage and maybe even get a league higher?

[cloud jackal]

No not with this model. Becuase you have to understand the experince. Your not going to feel like loses are becuase of anything you did but what you didn't own. Its like if i told you hey you're a golfer but why don't you start by just trying to play a round of golf with like 3 or 4 clubs. Thats why its essential we have another use for common stated illuvials. You create a steeping stone where Step 1 ) Collect all Illuvials for playing Gauntlet Step 2 ) Upgrade your collection with better illuvials of each one you own as you try Levithan. But if people are just focused on end goal levithan theres no reason to buy bad illuvials . I Really don't think the problem is anything with Levitha i think its the gap between Levithan and Casual Gauntlet. and theres 3 options to fix it ( 1 , add Ownership to Casual Ranked, 2 Create a Middle Model to bridge the gap , 3 Water down Levithan to make it acessible to all people through stat re-rolls and stat squishes and things like that 0

[gleaming pawn]

For anyone of u interested, I created a feedback idea here: https://discord.com/channels/760344898200666112/1308790543257698315

[pale cargo]

I did play golf with just 4 clubs, it's actually more fun than with all the gear for every inch. 😄

I agree to ownership for ranked, that seems like a must to me.

Watering down leviathan would be worst, can also just delete it then.
If you don't see crazy stuff happening in there, whats the point?

[cloud jackal]

Exactly I think ownership for ranked makes must sense , if you don't own you can still play but you'll stay in bronze or lower and you can slowly improve by buying any illuvials at pennies. so lowcostof investment. and you can leave levithan as the top tier level of crazy stats

we can't really support 3 modes so it kind of combines the ownership and the f2p modes into one ranked que. If you really look at the number of illuvials that exist. Just having everyone own 1 of each would eat up a lot of the illuvials on the market

[gleaming pawn]

I have a suggestion for how automated drone runs should be structured.

What is the current pain point of OW runs? Time spent. People with a lot of fuel don’t have the time to make runs.

Who plays OW runs now? People that see economic value from making a run, capturing DH, H/normal illuvials with close to perfect stats.

What is the goal of an OW run? Acquire close to perfect stat normal/H illuvials / DH.

Who wants to achieve the goal of an OW but does not do it? People with money, but limited time.

How can we implement automated drone runs where you achieve the end goal of an OW run, solve the time issue and get people with money to spend?
You simply instruct your drone to return illuvials from a normal OW run that either is DH or Holo/Normal illuvials with the best stats. Make the price for these automated 3-5x as expensive, and make no changes at all to anything else. Just add automation. Solve the time problem. What happens in the background is that the drone scouts and finds the best stat illuvials and u accomplish exactly the same as in a normal OW run: where you get the best stat illuvials from a run or a DH. You don’t have to make any other changes. The pool of illuvials that are available in a run can still be around 120.

Why will this structure be successful? People with time but limited money, can still find economic value from doing a normal run, because automated runs will be 3-5x more expensive. People with money but limited time can accomplish their goals as well, for a higher financial cost. A win win.

[hasty spindle]

why not give people with money the same conditions as a manual run, but at the same time people with money will bring 100x more money to the economy than some ideas with better stats?)

[drifting knot]

If the same value is extracted but for far less time, people running OW will essentially be penalised in a pretty significant way, as they will have to spend far more time for the same reward.

[hasty spindle]

If the same value is extracted - yeap i agree with this. This is key )

without any option to receive more or better stats then manually run

i agree it's okay)

[potent drum]

Have we considered an additional cost to do the automated run, as opposed to diluting the return from the run?

E.g. scanning using solon is there as a feature to save time. That's exactly what automated runs are intended to do, right? Save time, for a cost.

Also if the value from automated runs feels bad, that would be unfortunate. Ideally both automated runs and manual runs would be appealing for different reasons.

IMO reasons to do manual runs once automated runs exist should be things like:

• Doing manual runs for the fun of it
• Experience gain to Illuvials only from manual
• Minmaxing (e.g. ergon rifts, using ringnuts for more encounters)
• More optionality to what value is extracted from the run

[hybrid pebble]

I read and feel the following from 80% of the comments:

1: "Oh, I don’t have money for a perfect Illuvial, I don’t want one at 80% for $1 either, so what if I suggest that we should all have perfect stats for $1?"

2: "I have little time and little money, but I want to be at the top of the arena game with the best Illuvials, so I’ll suggest that there should be arenas for those who have $1 Illuvials."

3: "I have a lot of money and little time: I don’t care what they put in, I just want fun. I don’t care about the price, I just want fun; I care even less about time because this is a game, and I want to have fun. So, I’ll suggest that the game should be hard for everyone and easy for those who have money, but I also don’t want to achieve everything in one day because it wouldn’t be fun."

Conclusion:
Whales only seek fun, and they don’t care about money and care little about time. On the other hand, regular players want to achieve everything in a week without investing money and without feeling a gap with the whales.

Any balance?
My proposal:
Perfect, holo, and dark holo should be even harder to achieve than they are now. Time should be reduced for everyone, and increasing the luck-based difficulty but with less time guarantees more fun.

Kisses and hugs.

[hasty spindle]

who said that they don’t care about money? spend 100k for fun?))

for fun i played stalker 2, wookong, cs, witcher etc)

[hybrid pebble]

Here's something you need to learn: Proportion. In language, proportion is used. According to your logic, everyone always cares about money, and no one ever cares about it, therefore we all care about money. But you never consider that there are people who care more or less about money. Think about the proportion of the words and read it again.

[mossy siren]

My man with the good taste

Stalker 2 is released boys!!!

[hasty spindle]

you need to understand the difference between web2, where we spend money not as an investment, but only for fun, and web3, where we buy something for real money and own it and you can sell it at any time, get something back, enjoy it, and so on.
and all the resources that the company received from web3 should go to web3, but now the trend is different, what was received through web3 is being tried to be diluted with web 2. I am not against this, but everything should have reasonable limits

[umbral wraith]

Exactly. Web 2 and the norm of the world out side crypto.
Is consumer satisfaction and/or experience.

Corps can do this so well there is a thing called emotional buy and buyers remorse. All comes from marketing’s and little psychological aspects which cause brand loyalty.

Example from a medical products. why some people refuse to but off brand meds even though by USA federal law it has to be the same.

[hybrid pebble]

There is an internal contradiction in this and your previous comments. 1: Web 3 is for buying and selling with real money as if it were even an investment vs 2: The game should be much easier. Since when are investments easy?

[hasty spindle]

I don't understand what you mean

[hybrid pebble]

Is this game fun or an investment? Both? There will be people on each side of the balance, but what this game needs to be is more fun than investment in order to exist. Things that promote investment at the cost of fun will always be wrong.

[hasty spindle]

in these case I agree with you ofc

[hasty spindle]

a web3 project without investments is worth nothing, due to investments from web3 the project then develops, but if then the rights of web3 are infringed on in favor of web2 - that's sad

[hybrid pebble]

Dive deeper into this, I'm really interested in hearing this point of view of yours.

[umbral wraith]

As a web 2 guy easy doesn’t matter. I’m okay cyber punk 2077 on nightmare right now lol. It’s just fun.

But maybe for others? Even so it’s not hard unless you’re doing arena. I just suck lol

[frosty grotto]

@gleaming pawn I think 2-3 hours to look at 120 illuvials cost more than 3-5x the cost of a run at the current price. These automated runs will flood the marketplace with good stats illuvials. If one whale do 1000 run a day he could have lots of good stats to put in marketplace and ruin the price of good illuvial stats and their rarity. If only one whale Can flood the marketplace, imagine lots of people doing it. We need to find a good balance. Maybe start with a stage 1 drone run only to see if the model is good to launch for Stage 2 and 3.
A burning mechanism should be implemented at the same time as the autorun. With this pack opening system, what is the creation limit for Set 1 illuvials? If there is one, will it be reached quickly? Is illuvial's second set in the works?

[cloud jackal]

I agree its a Complex Decision but It seems like the Auto Runs will generate less good illuvials than standard runs so i don't see how they would generate and flood market with good stated illuvals you can already by 4/5 on all stat illuvals for like a couple dollars the only thing really holding its value is perfect stated ones

[gleaming pawn]

If one whale alone could do 1000 runs in a day only him, imagine how much the revenue will be for the DAO. People would still want to do runs, because u saved money on it. You know how few good stat illuvials there is? If illuvium comes close to their own ambitions in terms of the number of players for gauntlet and leviathan.. then u definitely need another mechanism for acquiring illuvials

[opaque valve]

Saiyng all the time from the beggins of the automatic...

We have only one "Autorun will be" (most probably) ... and probably it cost as OW +20%... Dont know which OW it is meant ... With SCAN (+200% !!! With argument it save the time), or without scan... "average OW run" was with 4000 Energy, or with 3 rift (4600 EN) , 8 rifts... (4900 EN), average with drons or without, average with scan or without...

Still we know nothing...

Now, with small players base we have: 944K Illuvials, 31K Illuvialls with 250+ (7K on market), 211K Illuvialls with 200+ (28K on market), 4K Illuvialls with 280+ (1K on market) and finally 352 of 300% Illuvialls (133 on market)... That's not so little...

**If demand will be higher, Illuvials will come to the market....

but now no one is even buying 4x50 (best for fusions!) for 0.5 USD...**

Otherwise, the filtering adjustment on the market shows how admins are completely detached from the game reality and ordinary players... They don't even know the basic paid tools used like Illuvidex / Illuvidex.
There is no filter according to "sum of stats +0 - +300", there is no filter according to "number of perfect stats". Or same "without movement)

So stats are great! Finally, some update of Illuvidex in July, but again it didn't happen because admins don't even know what players use and want. 😦

[hybrid pebble]

I’m translating this just to make sure it doesn’t go unnoticed. Please, the pack-opening system should be compared in terms of saving 2-3 hours of time and also the patience (or effort, or frustration) of waiting through those endless loading screens, which would also be saved. Thanks. @opaque valve I don’t understand what you mean. Maybe you don’t know how to use the filter, or I didn’t understand you well, but what you’re saying can’t be done actually can be done. In fact, that’s exactly how the filter works.

[cloud jackal]

Remove tier 0s from your math it paints a whole different story

[opaque valve]

Yes, on Illuvidex after this update still impossible... All others filters tools have this option:

filter 4 x 50 (any, I need 4x50 for fusion, doesnt matter which ones 🙂 - or I choose manually the most beautiful from the filtered ones )
Or filter total stats 260 and better.
That's why I sent a screenshot from Illuvimkt. You can see it there:
A) Perfect traits 0 -6
B) Traists power 0 - 30
(using stats label 0 - 5, not 0 - 50%, but it is same 🙂 )

[opaque valve]

you can do it... need 1 minutes:
Tier 1-5 ONLY

392K Illuvials,
140K Illuvialls with 200+ (25K on market),
27K Illuvialls with 250+ (6,5K on market),
3502 Illuvialls with 280+ (1174 on market)
and finally 333 of 300% Illuvialls (127 on market)... That's not so little...

(Where is your big different in top stats...? There is only diferent in "bad stats", because T0 is for free...)

This is same:
**If demand will be higher, Illuvials will come to the market....

but now no one is even buying 4x50 (best for fusions!) for 0.5 USD...**
And therefore people don't catch or are not interested in selling... If I catch 4x50 about 1x per 1-3 hour of gaming on the map and get 0.5 USD - fuel - shards

[cloud jackal]

Exactly we don't Have Enough ILluvials to Fuel Everyone to even have a full set of All Illuvials if we had 500 Players. ( Much lessa ll with Good Stats , There is Just 0 Demand to Actually Own Illuvials Right now)

[opaque valve]

"There is 0 Demand"... and we need it more? I really don't understand.
I can make cca 5-10 "300 stats" in 3-5 days... if I have buyer... But why? No one buy it... I dont dont want it for "big money", because Kieran only saying: Will be nerfed... +300 / 60 LVL will be piece of toilet paper... buy floor for 0,05 USD or get it free or buy it in "autodron" ... and you will be happy and easy can win Leviathan Arena Leaderboard...

Furthermore, is the market really supposed to be filled for everything after 4 months of play, 2 months of which were a dead wait to see if/how Season 3 and the real function of the stats will look like?
We have fuel for 3% of its nominal price... yet it is not played... and I say it again... why? Because the Market does not function, does not work and does not work... And then there is a lot of uncertainty whether the stats will be anything more than a "pretty picture"
Christmas is here... the main in-game Christmas events on most games and servers are often already running or have an announced start...
We only have a few messages on Discord... that Season 3 will be when everything is tuned to perfection... hmmmmmmmm

I also don't understand how there will be more demand for owning good/top Illuvials if we nerf them brutally (by 80% or more, as suggested).

When I want to withdraw a game win, I have to do about 8 rather complicated steps that are not described anywhere, and use an external not very trustworthy "SWAP exchange" to turn the ingame ILV win into ETH game currency... again... why? Is this user/friendly for MASS ADOPTION?
This really won't seem normal to a normal player "from the crowd" and he won't seek understanding for it... He'll just go elsewhere, even if Arena is the most polished autobattle game in the world.

[hybrid pebble]

Everything you say is true, but you forget that we are in beta, all of us here are taking a gamble. If this really works, all your Illuvials will sell. The problem is that, at the pace they’re going, it will take a year for them to switch networks, operate with USDT, polish Arena, implement Illuvial burning, and carry out massive marketing—because they already have a beautiful game.

I think we need to have thick skin and be prepared for a year. My positive opinion is that they will do everything possible to release Season 3 by mid-December. *The biggest flaw I see in the market is not having implemented burning. It’s strange that they didn’t do it—it’s so absurd that it seems like it was done on purpose to make Illuvials worth zero "0." It almost seems like it was intentionally done by an employee who wanted to harm the company and destroy the entire Illuvials market in the game.

[drifting knot]

I don't think we need buring. Illuvials are losing value because there is little demand for them, it's that simple.
Once they launch Arena with an album/pokedex, leaderboards/rewards, this will all change.
There's so many inventive ways to drive demand for illuvials, burning them is lazy and unnecessary if they create healthy demand via other means.

[hybrid pebble]

World of Warcraft burns all items every two years with a reset. Albion or EVE Online burn all their items through ship or equipment destruction in PvP fights. Mobile RPG progression games (I don’t know the most famous one in this category) have up to 10 accessories for each item, and even each accessory has levels and qualities. In Clash Royale or Clash of Clans, there is a rarity increase over time, making it take longer to level something up, and every year they “reset” things to some extent.

Illuvium has a system where capture rates decrease based on the number of Illuvials owned, but not much else. In reality, Illuvial burning exists; you just need to fuse them up to stage 3 and collect the ones with bad stats. At this rate, we’ll see stage 3 Illuvials with decent stats worth just one cent.

Card collection games similar to Beyond have extreme rarities, but in these, you can create a stage 3 with good stats in a single day. While I like what Illuvium has to offer, I’m disappointed that it doesn’t have more difficulty. I would love for them to implement something like card packs but without burning… I don’t know. Ask yourself: what would the people in Beyond do with 1,000 duplicate cards that no one buys because everyone already has 100 of the same? Accumulate points? Okay, that doesn’t exist in this game.

[full lintel]

why do you think that we dont need a burn mechanism? we even burn ILV tokens. thats how important burn mechanism is to increase the value of something. even if there will be plenty of demand for illuvials in Arena those are only for good stat illuvials and i dont think the next game will come soon enough for those bad stat illuvials to be useful. lets just say within a year the next game will be launched for our bad stats to be usefull but within that 1year time frame is enough to mint hundreds of thousands of bad stat illuvials

[drifting knot]

There's many ways to increase the value of something. Like I stated earlier, burning is lazy and short sighted, especially at this stage of development.
No-one has any idea of where any of the values will realistically be in 6 months time. It's pure speculation.
With a burn mechanism in place for low stat illuvials what incentive would there be to provide actual utility for them, near zero i'd bet.

[civic aspen]

I don't understand what you mean by lazy and short sighted? I completely disagree on this one, I think one or several burning mechanisms are absolutely necessary, especially with card packs coming in. What harm is it gonna do if someone wants to burn some of their lower quality illuvials? There are people with thousands. The lower the supply the more reason for people to run ow and open packs. The opposite would be a total disaster, if we have an oversupply and there is no need to mint more = no revenue. If you do pros and cons on having burning mechanisms and not, having them wins anytime.

[full lintel]

What are other ways to increase the value of bad stat illuvials? There are plenty of suggestions posted of ways to burn unuseful illuvials, dont think those were near zero utility like u said. Are the illuvial team lazy and short sighted for burning ILV tokens?

[drifting knot]

You have no idea of the size of the player/collector base, therefore no idea how rare any of these are going to be.
It's shortsighted because everyone that is vouching for this is just looking for a short term pump of their illuvial bag.

[drifting knot]

I cannot speak for the team but from my perspective SILV was a mistake, it's a burden not a benefit.

[civic aspen]

What has that to do with the burning mechanism? If there is a big demand and illuvials are rare for collection, less people will opt in for the burning mechanism.

It's better to have it, than needing it and not have it.

Furthermore if you do the math of how much revenue the dao needs to be self sustainable each month, there is no way we will not be totally flooded eventually, even with 1 million players.

[drifting knot]

Simple supply/demand. You are arguing that there will be an overabundance of illuvials without knowing half of that equation. How can you be so sure?

Set 1 is finite, yet the player base will continue expanding, long term it will take care of itself.
People just don't want to wait, which is why I say it is short term thinking. Everybody wants numbers to go up now.

The lower the supply the more reason for people to run ow and open packs. The opposite would be a total disaster, if we have an oversupply and there is no need to mint more = no revenue

Suggesting the DAO will make no revenue just because we don't burn "unwanted" illuvials is quite the stretch.

[opaque valve]

Simply Answer: Why should I catch 1000 of the same Illuvials? With below average stats?
I will only catch the ones that:
A) I want for myself
B) or I can sell on the market to someone who wants them...

Easy.

Personally, at first I thought burning was necessary... but over time I realized that it works without it.
The game has completely different problems than the missing burning... that can easily come when we have 1,000,000,000 Illuvials... not 1,200,000 like we have now.

[opaque valve]

Necessary for what? So you can catch shitty Illuvials and sell them to someone who will burn them and make something else out of them?
Yes, that's lazy and shortsighted, as Alexa writes...

[civic aspen]

If we reach the minimum revenue required to be self sustainable, let's say 5 mil a month, and a card pack costs 5$ for example, that means 1 million packs, with 4-5 illuvials in it equals 4-5 million illuvials minted per month. Or 60 million a year. And this is the bare minimum, I doubt that is the goal, the team will probably try to do better than the bare minimum, meaning even higher illuvial inflation eventually. What if we start pulling 10-20 mil revenue per month, how would that inflation look like?

If someone down the line in set 2,3,4 wants to complete a missing piece of their set1 and the supply is scarce, what's wrong with paying premium collection fee? Isn't that the point.

The burning mechanism if done right can be just an overpopulation control, in case the floor is too low, you burn your lowest stuff, if the floor is not low enough you don't burn. It's a utility that the player chooses if they want to do it or not.

Also I didn't suggest the dao won't make revenue because no burn mech, I said they won't if we have an oversaturated market, where it's pointless to open packs or run ow if there is already plenty of illuvials to choose from the market, which without consistently growing player base, can happen rather fast.

I say again, it's better to have it and not need it constantly, rather than get an oversaturated market, low to zero revenue again and once again lag behind 6-12 months to start building it up then. I'd say that would be short sighted.

[civic aspen]

What are you talking about mate? No need to sell to someone so they burn it, anyone can burn their own stuff if they want and get something gameplay oriented in return.

[opaque valve]

Mentality of player (here and in another games): If you make Burning mechanism, which will not be profitable right now, a wave of criticism will start that it is nonsense and admins should focus on useful things... Or they will shout loudly that the rewards from burning should be increased... Admins will succumb... and there is unhappiness in the world again... (like SHOW - HIDE - SHOW - (and we'll be HIDE in next update?) stats bug before battle.

With burning I agree with Alexa. Burning we no need now. In future... Who knows? Game need more important thinks than burning now...

[civic aspen]

Thanks for your input, I still believe it's wrong.

[opaque valve]

That you lose an Illuvial S3 fusion, if it goes badly it's OK. It will happen. The more valuable the fusion is, the more successful it is...
So far, every, even the worst stats are being sold, right? That it's not even worth the price of a shard to catch or the cost of the fusion? But that's OK, ... or: Where would you want to get the resources to make every action profitable, always? Who should pay for it?

[civic aspen]

I don't understand what you mean mate, it seems you agree and disagree with me at the same time. Apologies

[drifting knot]

I cannot see packs being just $5. Maybe if they tier them like they do with Beyond with a standard pack and a premium pack, the standard pack maybe $5, but who knows.

I'm not against burning in general, I actually think there are some fun ways to implement it, I just don't think it is as urgent as some believe. I also think there are scenarios where it may not eve be necessary, we just don't have the information available yet, so I would just say, lets hold off and see how things go, that is all. There's just way too much speculation to make a good call right now.

[civic aspen]

Okay but let's hold off and see how things go mentality has not worked that well for us so far. Better to plan ahead. The team has all the metrics to make an informed decision.

[opaque valve]

"The team has all the metrics to make an informed decision." - I hope 🙂
It doesn't always seem like the team is following a long-term strategy and plan. 😦 I can only hope that it only appears that way from the outside...

[drifting knot]

I don't believe they do, as they don't know the demand side of the equation either.

[opaque valve]

They don't even know what players are looking for in the market, what they would like to filter in the market... the official market is also not functional for casual players...

I say: I can only hope.

[civic aspen]

They have an estimate on the supply side, as how much revenue they need a month, they can also prepare scenarios for future playerbase growth, targets of 100k 200k 500k etc, and then plan accordingly to execute these plans. No one will ever know for sure the demand side in anything, we are not wizards. Doesn't mean we cant prepare accordingly to the best of our ability.

[civic aspen]

I think we agree here, and the option of burning assets is a form of long term strategy in order to keep the inflation in control. What parameters in control means, is up to the team since they have all the data. It doesn't mean burn it all down to 0 ilvs on the market.

[covert hull]

You can do infinite T3 runs currently on 50 cents that u make back off one resplendent shard and catch anything for cents to 2$ in shards, meaning almost every illuvial is basically almost free, and yet almost no one plays OW, so why would burning anything make worthless illuvials not worthless anyways?

[civic aspen]

Let's not forget that without demand, any feature will be totally useless. That is one part of the equation.

Also you don't need to focus on making worthless illuvials, not worthless by measuring their monetary value. You can burn them for XP to level your main illuvials faster, since that is a chore. You can burn them for rare crafting materials, you can burn them for special keys to enter dungeons/raids, you can burn them for exclusive ranger cosmetic appearance. Just a few examples, the options are many.

Currently nothing makes sense, since there is 0 demand for anything.

[opaque valve]

"0 demand for anything."

Because the long-term concept is unknown and all players hear is that 99% of stats will be nerfed. So why catch something - Why do it, if I don't know, if it will be worth at least toilet paper in a week... let alone a 40 minute run for 0.5 USD + shards 😦

I don't know about you, but I only hear 2 known concepts from AMAs and discussions 🙂

1. It's beta, you're unlucky and things will change
2. There will be nerfs to stats

So what should a regular player currently be playing as their goal?
I don't know about you, but I only hear 2 known concepts from AMA and discussions 🙂

1) It's beta, you're unlucky and things will change
2) There will be a nerf of stats

So what should a regular player currently play as their goal? Catch 5x50 Ador for 6 USD (Master shard), when after the nerf in a week it will be worth 1 USD? Nobody really wants that...

The players in the game don't know what to play because they don't know "the rules"... - Not good for game experience 😦

[civic aspen]

It's not about that, there will always be a need for balancing, it's a video game. There is no magical world where a gaming company can nail the balancing in one go and then forget about it permanently, on the opposite, games with 20+ years of history are still under changes and balancing. That is not the problem.

Make the game fun enough and welcoming for new players, and the demand will come. From what I see, the team is actively working on that.

[opaque valve]

Balance... small step-by-step changes with data is necesarry a good... 👍
NERF to 5-15% with no real statistick data from fights (Leviathan Arena) of original values "can hardly be called balanced"... And this nerf extremely damaging/will damage the last functioning part of the Illuvial market...

May be working, but without communication and "known longer plan" the community is declining... not growing.

Or: Practically all games have a significant increase in sales, traffic and active players... Crypto is on TOP now... and does it seem to you that Illuvium and the number of active players (or only "players" have been growing for the last 2 months?

I don't know about you, but I have data from our 20-member clan community + simillar numbers of guests ... and most of them are now playing other games because they have Christmas specials ... and they know what and why they are playing there ...
They buy battle passes and other upgrades here = in other games.

[civic aspen]

Now we are getting on the same page, we definitely need those things in ilv as well. Put enough content and fun stuff to do for people, and the demand will come. Also the actual game needs to be finished and polished too (arena). When we have those things, the demand will increase.

[hybrid pebble]

Honestly, I would like to see a single game where you buy collections or create items without a burning mechanism. At least in the ones I know, such a game doesn't exist.

Another thing: without a burning mechanism and determining the value of an item based on the dependency of more players (and I mean always, this is very important), then this would be a perfect Ponzi scheme.

Ponzi definition: dependency on new users, and at a faster rate, to sustain itself.

[opaque valve]

Much of game have no burning mechanism...

And there is burning mechanism... for gems, shard, ingots, stage 1, stage 2 Illuvials...

Yes, "final" stage 3 Illuvial with shit stats have value near to zero... with no burning... yet, surprisingly, people still buy it, even for "big" money...

But "sold" for 0,6 USD... so obviously there are players who see value in this waste too... Speculation on burning? Hard to say... but the price of this waste on the market is too high and should be max 0.1 USD or less... (at current FUEL prices)

Maybe differently:
I'm for burning in the future...
But definitely not now, when it's not even clear what S3 burning was supposed to produce... What the game needed 🙂

[drifting knot]

Like I said before, i'm not against burning, I just don't think it should be a priority. Getting the Arena out with free/paid modes, leaderboards etc and creating actual demand is top priority. Burning if necessary can come down the line.
I'm pretty sure the team already have a good idea of how they would implement this anyway. They must have thought about it quite a bit.

Ponzi definition: dependency on new users, and at a faster rate, to sustain itself.

Pretty much every asset on the planet falls under this definition.

[eternal pier]

None of illuvium's assets are gaining value, all have fallen since illuvium was created. I've been losing a lot of money for 3 years now, speculation no longer works.

[drifting knot]

Speculation can only get you so far. Ultimately the product has to be delivered.
Burning is a temporary band aid and a waste of time and resources right now.
Worrying about having 1 million players and 1 billion illuvials, what a beautiful problem to have 😄 .

[civic aspen]

Yes it will be a beautiful problem, you can have 100mil players, if no one is running ow or buying packs, the lights go off.

[opaque valve]

And how does burning help? When stock market searches still don't work, offers management doesnt work, gasoline prices is a chapter in itself, no daily/weekly/monthly events (they don't even have to be about money! Just an in-game item like a smiley or skin)...

Burning really isnt priority if we want to save "ILV. word games" 🙂

[civic aspen]

Who thinks it's the number one priority though? I believe we are all aware there are more pressing issues to tackle at the moment.

How does burning help? One example, when the card packs are introduced, someone opens 10 packs, 90% of the stuff is useless. If he can burn some of those assets in order to do something else with it, it will lessen the bad experience, and make people want to open more packs/run more ow, cause every single one will feel more impactful. It's a combination of psychology+gameplay incentives.

[drifting knot]

someone opens 10 packs, 90% of the stuff is useless

No different to any other pack opening experience then 😄

[opaque valve]

Another theory of unlimited profit ... "I open a pack and I always have to earn... "

If I open 10 packs, so let's say I earn 50 Illuvials... how many of them will be S3?
S1 can be burned to S2, S2 to S3 ...
You need 205 Illuvials for a complete collection...
about 800 Illuvials if counted burned S1 to S3 (need 9x S1 to burn to make S3)

Much of time to making some burg mechanism...

Even opening packages is still not approved by the IIP, although Kieran presents it as a clear and done thing.
On the contrary, the IIP with the refusal to open packages is still valid!

[civic aspen]

My point was I open a pack and I want to open more, didn't mention anything about earning.

[civic aspen]

Sure, you probably have much bigger experience in this area than me. I just fail to realize why would someone want to run ow or open packs, if the market is already flooded with everything they need, at a cheaper price.

[covert hull]

in digital card games you can dust them to craft others tho, but being web3 fucks this

[drifting knot]

Fusing will still be a thing though, so we can do that here already.

[drifting knot]

With how rare perfect stat illuvials will likely be out of packs, I highly doubt we will be flooded, especially holo or dark holo variants. The odds will run in the 1000's if not a lot higher.
People will open packs for the chase cards, the dark holo Rhamphyres, perfect stats etc.
In doing so that will put a lot of supply on the market of lower end illuvials, but that just gives players with smaller budgets opportunity to get in the game.
A lot will be fused and burnt and maybe you're right, there will be a boat load of low stat illuvials that no-one wants and they can bring burning in then, but it's so far down the line, so much to do and achieve before it's even an issue IMO.
Anyway, there's nothing more I can add, that's just where I stand on it. Feel free to disagree .

[hybrid pebble]

It's funny that you came to that conclusion yourself, and yes, any asset that has some connection to a debt system to exist is, in some way, a Ponzi system—some more than others. Since we live in a world with a debt-based regime, not being a Ponzi is almost a miracle. However, if we understand the proportion, the further something is from being a Ponzi, the more robust it will be over time. In everything else, I agree with you.

[civic aspen]

I agree though, at least on most parts. I just think it's better to have the burning tech operational before the time it's needed arrives so that we have ways to manage the eco. Otherwise I'm not advocating for it to be done asap, or that it's the top prio right now, that would be silly.

[hybrid pebble]

It's not about wanting quick money, I’m invested in this game, and if it goes to zero, it was fun. I’m just thinking about the best for the game in the future. Burning isn’t a priority, and I agree with that. Burning should be implemented before it’s necessary, that’s also true. And as my friend @opaque valve said, if burning is implemented, it should only apply to stage 3. And yes, I care little about burning if there are many players, but something is important and often forgotten: If Illuvials become too cheap, it will be a hard hit for the income, because the market would send profits of 5% commission for selling Illuvials at $1, but not at $100. What Kieran thinks (I suspect) is that having cheap Illuvials is more good than bad for the game because it boosts mass adoption, and when there are already too many players, the prices can rise, and it would be more manageable. But right now, it's much better for everything to be cheap and accessible, and I’m happy with that. I’ve learned a lot today. Thank you.

[opaque valve]

PM about some offers 😉

[warped sandal]

I think the Album/Repository, with a leaderboards/rewards, is one of the most important elements that are currently missing.

If this was implemented in similar way as we have it for Illuvitarts with the Beyond Leaderboard Rewards. (and was also tested to some extend in the “test phase”). we could make a system that both incentivises collecting and “burning” more Illuvials. One way it could work:

Your Illuvial has a base point based on Tier and stage, with added multiplier for power level (Traits + level). you collect them in albums and get bonuses for completing sets. you would collect both Normal , Holo x2 points and Dark Holo x3 points.

The points you get is 100% for Illuvials that you catch or obtain from drone runs/opening packs, and from fusing, and you get 70% of the points from Illuvials you buy from the marketplace. (still worth buying high stats Illuvials from the marketplace, but you get rewarded for collecting or fusing them yourself, and it can encourage fusing which is the one “burn mechanism” that already exists).

You can gain XP for your Illuvial by bringing them with you in the OW, fighting in Arena, and by “sacrificing” (burning) an Illuvial of the same type. (you would gain XP equal to powerlevel *10 for the “sacrificed” illuvial, and there would be a max level you can gain by this method)

I think this would make a good foundation for wanting to collect but keep improving the collection. and make a use for Illivials both for fusing and gaining XP.

[spare ibex]

People really need to enjoy the games without the incentives for monetary rewards. We need to onboard people who just want to play for fun. Bragging rights for leaderboard positions with 1/1 nft trophies as a result. Not ILV token distributions ext

[drifting knot]

I'm sure they will transition to that over time. It's just that as of now the games aren't in a state to keep people engaged purely for the fun unfortunately. I'm sure they will get there though.
Can always save the ILV rewards for tournaments.

[prime rivet]

same thing for illuvitars 😉

I like that there are lots of assets available so when people come to play the barrier to entry is lower

[cloud jackal]

Yeah i'm less Conecerned with Burning if we add Demand for Illuvials, However if we only have Levithan for Demand for Illuvials we 100% need Burn becuase 60% of illuvials have no use in Levithan

[prime rivet]

Illuvials will be for use in any future games too. I don't really wanna see all assets burnt...
The only burning mechanism I see fitting is for XP. But not for any extra shit like shards or fuel or anything like that.

[cloud jackal]

We can Always Print more Illuvials its not like we Need to keep them forever. Set 2 / Wave 2 can have reprints just like Card games reprint the same cards. Its fine to add burn mechanism. Its way better than keeping around junk on the floor that serves no purpose it makes the game look like trash that's assets have no value

[prime rivet]

I'd support a burn for xp... but that's it. Anyone gonna draft an iip for it?

[cloud jackal]

I'm thinking maybe a Burn for an XP Bonus Buff , ( LIke Burn so much Illuvials get up to a 100% buff for 24 hours or something ) Maybe 1 Tier 5 , 2 Tier 4's something like that what you guys think about that kind of XP burn ?

[prime rivet]

I mean... it might actually help arena numbers... cuz people would wanna level up their illuvials and gain xp faster

[cloud jackal]

Well Arraon had said he didn't want to Give Away XP he wanted people to Play for it so this would give people the ability to get extra xp but still require them to play

[opaque valve]

I really don't understand this logic... If I have a budget of, say, 100 USD, I'd be happy to buy a super team for Leviathan with stats around +100 to +230 at prices close to floor...
And I'll still have a "+230%" and + bonus from LVL advantage over someone who doesn't give a dollar.

Of course, +150 ILV IS USEFUL IN LEVIATHAN...
There can only be one first... but for a lot of people it's enough to be TOP100, TOP1000 ... !

[opaque valve]

Cheapest T5S1 still cost 1 USD... They HAVE VALUE
Chepest T5S1 Rhamphyre cost 15 USD
Cheapest T1S3 cost 0,22 USD...

Where is your zero value ... ? 15 USD is ZERO? Please send it me 1000 times... 1000x zero = 0, or not? And I will have nice Christmas with my daughter 🙂

After we have on market 50x same Illuviall with price 0,01 and lower... we can say that have ZERO VALUE... but now? I dont thing so.

[dusk thunder]

Interesting discussion about burning. My question is: has anyone come up with a burning mechanic that doesn’t inevitably lead to the elimination of all "low-value" Illuvials?

Example 1: Burning to increase stats. This approach would likely result in all low-stat Illuvials being burned, leaving only high-stat ones. This creates a significant problem for the game’s balance and diversity.

Example 2: Burning Illuvials for experience. This idea feels somewhat better since it doesn’t provide a definitive value increase. Instead, it makes the value subjective, tied to how much players value their time. This method is less of a "burn all bad ones to keep only the good ones" issue.

However, it could interfere with other planned features, such as leveling Illuvials on IZ plots (e.g., buying levels from landowners) or scholarship systems where players can level up Illuvials for others.

I fully support the idea of burning, as long as it’s implemented delicately—ensuring it doesn’t disrupt the in-game economy or diminish Illuvials’ value as a feature. Eliminating "worthless" Illuvials could unintentionally undermine future game modes that incentivize ownership and may be essential for supporting a larger player base.

Personally, I’m very interested in the burning mechanics people might come up with. This should be more of a brainstorming exercise, rather than nitpicking at the ideas. Let’s focus on creative possibilities!

Maybe @cosmic ridge has some insight for us on whether any solid burning mechanics are currently being worked on, considering the team has likely been brainstorming solutions for a long time.

[winged sun]

At the start of the project, the concept of the game looked right. Unfortunately, I don't know what went wrong and why this idea was abandoned. But I would like to remind everyone: It was assumed that the number of illuvials would be LIMITED. Moreover, in my understanding, it should have been open information, that is, each player should have seen who and how many remained in the open world. Whoever decided to cancel this concept made a mistake and now we see hyperinflation of everything. and now we have a lot of discussions about what to do about it

[pale cargo]

i don't know where you got that from, but from my understanding the numbers only should have been limited with sets closing.
But during the set there should have been unlimited illuvials.

[winged sun]

if this is the case, then there must be time limits. what's the point if this set lasts for 4 years?

[pale cargo]

i don't think it is planned that this set last for 4 years.

[umbral wraith]

This I knew I was not the only one who said this.

There was supossed to be a limited supply, and as they got catch the supply would demons to you can’t catch those illuvials anymore. But no I can’t tell if it was a joke or real

[winged sun]

That's what they said, every next illuvial will fall out with a lower chance. but apparently they abandoned this idea, and I missed it

[covert hull]

this is literally working right now, it's the bonding curve, and it it's not finite illuvials, it's just -25% from max chance to bottom or something close

[pallid musk]

The problem with Example 1 is you are assuming people wouldn't react to the volume of low stat illuvials being burned. Once people see that there is money to be made selling low stat illuvials they would be replaced considering they are way easier to supply than high stat ones.

[umbral wraith]

Ah…still remember talks like this. This is the oldest I could find, but battery’s is in 5% so I stopped looking lol

[cloud jackal]

Illuvials have a bonding cuve " or so i've heard" but there is no reason to fear that illuvials will go extencit . As there value goes up the oversupply of Fuel will restock them. SO fuel works has a downward force on keeping illuvials prices low. Even if Set 1 is finished we can always reprint the same illuvials in a future set. The same way a TCG does. So there is no fear of running out right now. So burning them to give them a use case since no game use case exist is a short term soultion

[hybrid pebble]

I find it funny when they say that the bad Illuvials will disappear and we'll be left without them forever. If a lot of people come in, they won’t have anything to buy. It’s like saying that the new players will never play Overworld. I think low prices are good so that the entry point is very large, but there should be a way to progressively raise the prices as more people join, and the current market model works the opposite way.

[dusk thunder]

i think from talking with aaron, he said there would never be another exact copy of an illuvial re-released

[dusk thunder]

yeah I definitely can see that aswell. We wouldn't want to burn any extra illuvials now, since those assets are needed for future players.

[cloud jackal]

Its not an exact copy .... If one is Set 1 and one is Set 3? the older ones has more collectable bonus. LIke a First edition Charizard. But i mean that seems like a rough limit to put on us for future development. Becuase as Player sizes increase ... say some day you have 1 million players and there are only 1000's Ramphyres ?

[pale cargo]

yes... possibly

[opaque valve]

This is no problem in future...
In new season we will have another NEW Illuvialls... and yes, Thampyres will be more and more rarer... 🙂
Most games also work with the fact that "cards" older than, for example, 3 seasons can no longer be used in ranked (in our case, Leviathan) mode and the like... so it will only be a collector's rarity or an item for "wild mode"... It won't matter that there are few of them...

[hot pier]

Nah it goes all the way down, just very slowly

[hot pier]

This is why it's not tuned that tightly

[covert hull]

i read a few months ago that it had a cap of how low it could go, that was wrong?

[hot pier]

yes

[hot pier]

I take this back partially, I remember we actually put in a failsafe so it doesnt reach 0, but it's a lot lower than -25%

[dusk thunder]

by exact copy i meant gameplay wise, same affinity+class+ability

[umbral wraith]

Here is another suggestion. instead of just card packs as well if i used SOLON, i did here, to see the map it would be nice to be able to see the mons stats from just click on them. If i did not like none i just hurry up and mins crystal, then buy more fuel to try my luck again. I am 30 min in this morning, where i paused yesterday after an hour of checking several other mons, to look for 2-3 guys across a map. I just run from the battles / time anyway.

Time is not refundable, and this current way actually gets me to spend less money.

[opaque valve]

Showing stats is bug... Why suport bug which Will be removed - as was said...

[umbral wraith]

I know, and disagree. If I have 2-3 hours I can do a run. But this run(mentioned above) is on day two, same run, and I haven’t even checked half of the mons yet.

So I was saying that if you purchase SOLON and use it then show stats. It’s a way to get fuel bought, and it saves players time.

I’m already doing accounting work on:

• cost per run
• cost of fuel to cure shards
• cost for each illivials I want to catch
• • keeping up with shard cost for fails
• cost to mine a plant
• cost to min a crystal
• Etc

AND it takes hours to find something. I doubt my idea is perfect but this is like working $2/hr if your lucky, lol unless you get super lucky I guess.

Any one have a break down of like a 700$ sell and how much time it took you to get that mon, and all cost associated with it?

[cloud jackal]

If you Find that Enjoyable ( And it sounds like you don't from the way your describing it ) Than more power to you . I Choose to Approach Illuvium as a Game and as a Game Design Perspective not a Job/Investment . I would also Argue if your looking to get mass adoption and make your assets valueable you should advicate for things that take away the WORK aspects of the game ( like must of overworld) and Transition more to a Game. Optimization is one way to play games and some people do but i really don't i think this post is an exact reason we need A lot of work on overworld.

[opaque valve]

We speaking still about game, or your man job and hourly wage?? Solon will no exist in future if autorun and 1-fuel system will be start...

[umbral wraith]

Not a job or investment lol I’m web2 what I’m saying it takes away from the enjoyment of the game because I’m literal doing accounting and it’s filled with what I call micro-transactions.

But hey if that’s what y’all want. Keep it

All I know is as a web 2 guy, if fuel goes back up. I won’t be doing this.

Right now it’s super cheap so the cost is stupid low. And I don’t mind. But if a run cost 10$ like it did for stage 3 in the beginning then this is a job. Not a game

Right now I’m playing gods unchained for free and it feels nothing like this

[opaque valve]

Still this is a game... If map COST 10 USD... Will be ok, if you stay on map long time... And enjoy it:-)

[umbral wraith]

Ok just farm your players like cattle then I guess.

I enjoy t0 fully only right now. I don’t have to think just have fun.

[hybrid pebble]

"Definitely, separating investment from gameplay is a topic that has been discussed extensively, and constant transactions to buy fuel and race don't help much, if at all. The problem is solved with a battle pass, monthly pass, season pass, etc. This has already been discussed, and models are even being developed to address this situation. It's not new, and the issue is on the table. Again, I repeat, it’s incredibly important to make sure people don’t overthink when it comes to playing. Imagine Fortnite. If Fortnite, a ridiculously famous game, required you to pay one dollar every day to play instead of having a battle pass, I highly doubt it would be what it is now. It would probably be seen as an investment. 'Okay, I invest one dollar in Fortnite today, but what do I get? What do I gain?' If it’s a battle pass, it’s no big deal."

[drifting knot]

The thing with battle passes is that they are not required. You can ignore them, pay nothing and play the same game as everyone else, minus some fancy cosmetics. Also, because there is no ownership, they don't have to worry about flooding the market with those cosmetics as there is no expectation for them to hold any value.

A battle pass here also opens us up to bots that will just drive everything to 0, literally.
I am not saying it's not possible, but there are far larger obstacles to overcome to make a battle pass feasible in OW than there are in a traditional web 2 game.

[umbral wraith]

While it’s hard to pinpoint one single factor, here’s a list of games that really stand out for their incredible success and why I think players can’t get enough of them:

World of Warcraft (WoW)

Launch: 2004
Revenue: Around $1 billion annually
Why Players Love It: A vast world that feels alive, constantly evolving with new updates and expansions. Players pay to continue their epic journey and connect with friends.

Final Fantasy XIV
Launch: 2010 (reworked in 2013)
Revenue: Over $100 million per year
Why Players Love It: A story that pulls you in, epic raids, and fresh content. Players keep coming back for a rich, unforgettable experience.

Xbox Game Pass
Launch: 2017
Revenue: About $2.9 billion a year
Why Players Love It: Access to hundreds of games, including brand-new releases, for a fraction of the cost. It’s the ultimate value for gamers who want variety and choice.

EA Play
Launch: 2014
Revenue: Around $400-500 million annually
Why Players Love It: The thrill of early access to the latest games, exclusive content, and discounts on EA’s top titles like FIFA. Gamers feel like VIPs.

PlayStation Plus
Launch: 2010
Revenue: Over $2.5 billion annually
Why Players Love It: Free games every month, discounts, and the power to play online with friends. It’s the gateway to an exciting gaming community.

Apple Arcade
Launch: 2019
Revenue: Around $1 billion annually
Why Players Love It: A collection of games with no ads, no in-app purchases—just pure, uninterrupted fun. It’s all about getting the best gaming experience for a small price.

Hearthstone
Launch: 2014
Revenue: About $200 million annually
Why Players Love It: Constant updates to keep the card battles fresh and challenging. Players invest in new cards to stay ahead of the competition and prove their skills.

[hybrid pebble]

I’ll ignore the fact that this is a GPT response and answer with a summarized comment: Why do people love successful games? Because they’re fresh, exciting, and fun. Thanks for "discovering fire." Beyond that, what we’re trying to achieve is the "HOW"—how to make it fun, progressive, fresh, etc.

One thing I’ve discovered while playing an incredibly successful idle AFK mobile game is this: Why would people play this without smashing their phone against the wall? The answer I’ve reached is the feeling of progression, the competition to be the best, plus the luck factors in the gacha system and the endless evolution of items. But in summary, the feeling of progression surpasses everything else—it’s a recurring theme across all games.

[spare ibex]

The incentive has to be to finish the game for a rare 1 off NFT that is available for a certain period of time. Keep the campaigns coming and they provide utility into other ecosystems. Play to earn is never the way to structure a game.

[hybrid pebble]

I agree

[umbral wraith]

It’s human and chat gpt. I spent time researching a few of the games, wrote something then ask chat gpt to make it sound better. Should have asked for less robot more human tho lol

[spare ibex]

Damn that’s lazy

[opaque valve]

I'll simplify it and without ChatGPT...
Successful projects keep your activity online daily with some kind of reward. Permanently, constantly and without interruption.
And it doesn't have to be Season 3 with a big ILV drop, as presented here!
Just a pass, just stupid simple daily missions with a monthly reward of some "smiley/skin", or just a higher XP gain every day the first battle after logging in. For example.

Which of the above projects is missing something like that?
And does it have ILV currently? 😉

[umbral wraith]

When it comes to the point of constant interruption aspect, aka stop game play work out details on every action made, exactly. The rest was just the different mechs each games used to compare the differences.

I had a lot more research and notes, which was too big to fit here. I used chats gpt to sum up all my notes of each game with the following.

• Why was each game fun,
• revenue- check to be sure revenues are up to date (didn’t verify past what I found. Gpt kept the same numbers
• I had market share as well, but was to long so had to take it out
• make it as short and sweet as possible so a 7-8th grader can understand it. (The median reading level of Americans)

The common denominator of all the above games is providing ongoing value and some type of a a need of a daily engagement that keeps players invested over time.

[opaque valve]

Yes, you need a daily "dose" 🙂
Need any bonus that will keep it attractive...

They keep whining here that they won't pour money into Season 3 until everything is SUPER... but most players (not moneymakers) don't need Season 3 with 18000 ILV... they want something that will make them play every day... a habit 🙂

[wet talon]

there is thing called fusion in overworld, if you cant get t5 with good stats....

[wet talon]

who knows what future holds for illuvium, is think it wwill be erry good, and those low stats s3 might get good value in future if some changes are implemented, so now could be a good opportunity to collect them. But.... e will see, its a bit gamble when we dont know what will be implemented in future, but i think its good to have a bit of everything so we can be ready in future, maybe best to have allot of everything nov and save for future.... its like shitcoins, get 10 different ones and 1 or more with time will pump mad 😄

[wet talon]

you can check stats of illuvials you catching, noo need to get low stat ones....

[umbral wraith]

This is going away.

[pallid kelp]

What do you mean?

[umbral wraith]

On this day the option to see an Illuvium stats while in battle was removed but then quickly reverted for OW.

From what I understood this was a bug and was never supossed to be a thing.

This pic is the post when it was put back 10-30mins later.

I hope it doesn’t go away at all honeslty.

[winged sun]

Turning a game into a casino is not the best idea. in fact, this makes the game "pay and win" and kills "play and earn". Since you don't make any decisions, but rely on pure randomness, there will be no strategy.

[pallid kelp]

If you get a pack, the stats should be random. If you hunt you should have more options to get a good Stat illiuvial

[wet talon]

it says it is ment for future OW update, so it will stay aniway

[winged sun]

I understand. but I hope that this will not be introduced in the future. pure randomness is complete bullshit

Again, we don't know how the statistics will change, so it's not relevant right now.

[umbral wraith]

Casino reference was to say how it should be easy cash out and sign up. No hurdles, no gimmicks, no crossing wrong chains unless people do it outside of the illuvium network.

But now that you mention it. Not gunna lie…is there one crypto game you can point me to that is not pay to win.

To me any project really where you can buy max lvl stats/best “X” items but are allow to pay in order to get those “x”s is a pay to win.

I know arena takes skill to master but if you only have t0s and I have stage 3s t1-T5s seem to be one’s side based on pay. That part I don’t understand how this is not pay to win.

I want the stats to stay. I actually asked in other chats if we use Solon we should get the bonus of see the stats from the map. But big backlash with that idea lol

[opaque valve]

It's not a change, according to official and unofficial statements even before this patch, displaying static before the battle is a BUG and BUGs will simply be removed...

At least people will stop complaining about having to return from battles they missed 🙂 They won't have a reason to do it anymore. 😉

The fact that it is a BUG can be partially recognized from the other behavior of the game... when catching by shard, you no longer see the stats - as was supposedly planned all along.

[pallid kelp]

actually see the stat upfront makes the fight more exciting for me

[winged sun]

I don't think this is a bug, most likely the developers did not expect at that time that the illuvial statistics would be more important than the illuvial itself. I ignore the t5s2 (if it has bad characteristics) and take the t1s1 with excellent characteristics. In my experience, the rarity of the characteristics is not taken into account in the card selection algorithm. I think they will correct the selection algorithm, and leave the viewing of characteristics. But this is just my opinion, I do not know what the developers will do.

at first, no one paid attention to the characteristics, but over time, the price on the market began to react to them. and everyone rebuilt to catch only the best characteristics, and just at that moment the patch came out, so everyone was outraged. because people were deprived of the opportunity to earn money. There is no benefit in hiding these characteristics

[opaque valve]

I dare to disagree...
I think we reported on displaying statistics back in July...
The price of statistically good Illuvials was high from the start. It's just that 99% of players didn't have the tools to view and filter statistics sensibly...
Those who had the tools made money and bought them for almost floor, maybe even 5x50, and then sold them for 10-30x the price. But it was mostly done manually.
Then came IlluviPro, IlluviMKT and other applications... and this market opened up to a larger percentage of players...
Then came the update where they hid the stats and then brought them back... and the rest (according to dozens of reactions on the forum during the update day and after) of players will find out that the stats can be displayed at all...
Finally, the stats display on the official IlluviMKT came (finally!)

Stats + XP should have been important all along... Leviathan mod was promoted all along as a high-lvl difficulty 🙂

But nothing has happened on OW for 2 months and the market has completely collapsed and people either finally quit or, in desperation from falling prices, sell the perfect PHO 290 for 25 USD to a bot, who then tries to resell it...
https://illuvidex.illuvium.io/asset/0x205634b541080afff3bbfe02dcc89f8fa8a1f1d4/1135359

I think the game will go down in Web3 textbooks not as the first successful game... but as a game with a brutally botched economic start that currently doesn't know what to do with itself...

FUEL cost <3% target price
More than 60K ILV (3M USD!!!!) for season 1+2 blown up !
A disaster on the market and price correction will be expensive and complicated. It will be extremely difficult to regain trust of players... (no MONEY EXTRACTORS)
And if they do fix the prices, who will ultimately profit? Admins? Players? No! Bots win! Bots, who are always buying up on offer for 10-20% of the regular price from desperate and exhausted players... We will all really cheer! 😦

[winged sun]

this is another problem, it has nothing to do with the display of characteristics. I have thoughts about what you wrote, but first I would like to see an official announcement of what the developers came up with.

[opaque valve]

**I can say for myself that I like displaying stats too. **I am definitely against speeding up the game and getting new Illuvialls faster=cheaper (opening packs, displaying stats (and all Illuvialls on the battlefield when scanning, etc.)). It will only lead to further flooding of the already oversaturated market and ultimately to the collapse of the economy and game trade.
On the other hand, the feeling of joy from catching Illuvialls with nice stats (on e.g. Holo) is great and makes ILV-OW interesting.

[opaque valve]

Unfortunately we have been waiting for annoucement or IP / IIP more than 3 months (season 2 was not a season and this was not alone - the developers also admitted that)

[winged sun]

Yes, I agree that it's sad. but a lot of work has already been done and let's hope that the best is ahead)

[umbral wraith]

If this person is with the devs, as the comment suggested, it’s 100% a bug to them. Just because we want it or feel like it’s not bug is just not reality.
I do not want them to go away fyi.

#1296069792339333247 message

[winged sun]

what can I say, it turned out to be a wonderful bug. without it, we would have drowned in useless illuvialls, or the fuel bonus that we see now would have been two months earlier

[opaque valve]

Thanks for screens. I said it: it's considered a bug. 😦
Whether it's ultimately a benefit or not... hard to say. The problems are mainly elsewhere. And if it's a BUG that I reported in July, it should have been fixed! Long time ago!" 😦

That's the question if fuel droped dramaticlly fast or on the contrary, it would decrease more slowly... : top stats are the only ones that have value... and top players pay for them...

On the other hand, it might be a high fuel consumption, because you would need a lot more runs (Crypton) and shards (Hyperion + Crypton for Raw shards) to catch a similar number of top monsters... + Solon for making more fusions to try making "some good" 🙂
In hide stats: Anything 220+ would have a high value, not only 300%
Yes, the junk would be cheaper and you would probably make a profit selling it... which is OK, if there was a possibility to "recover financially" on those top stats.

[winged sun]

Unlimited illuvialls, hidden characteristics, what's next? that's right, lootbox, you get 5 random illuvialls and a bunch of resources. how can you build a strategy on this? The answer is: nothing. why do you think that 100% of the players are here for the sake of collections and for the sake of spending all their money? for example, I like to play, but I don't want to pay all the time, I want to earn and keep playing. by earning inside the game and spending money inside the game, I support everyone, why am I worse than those who pay and pay? Why would I complicate my life for the sake of randomness? for the sake of the work of the developers?

[opaque valve]

I don't understand what you mean by "what next"?
A BUG is a bug and should have been fixed right from the start. Until last month, about 30% of players didn't even know that you could view stats before a battle! But the bug should have been fixed immediately... once again we have the approach of a admin-team "lazy?" that multiplies an initially (reported!!) small error into a giant problem because do nothing.
I think the Illuvial catch curve is still working. Rhamphy on Respls shards starts at about 75% to catch ... now it is about 50% ... and the chance dropping down. They should never have been limited. They should just be harder and harder to catch. It doesn't look like it right now because no one is playing. But if they get the game up and running and restore trust and play... it'll go down like a sore thumb.
"lootbox, you get 5 random illuvialls and a bunch of resources." - yes, Kieran keeps talking about these "automatic runs"... and if he does that, he will probably lose the vast majority of players and will be left with collectors, bots and money extractors at most... And in about 10-20 months ILV will run out of money, if I remember the burning report correctly (and I'll add some extra time to them, because they will get some money from automatic runs at the beginning). - Personally, I am extremely against any auto-run, stat scan, or anything like that.

Numbers for example:
ADMIN say, that on Season 2 was ACTIVE 23000 accounts, which earn drop...
LAST 30 days WAS ACTIVE ONLY LESS THAN 2000 accounts ... include Illuvitars collectors, if you count only OW runs, we are about 1500-1800 accounts, which play 1 run and more. Include free T0 RUN!!

Unfortunately all the money (only drop WAS 3M USD + marketing) hard invested in Season 1 and 2 was wasted: the fuel and illuvial market practically collapsed ... and we have Christmas season... and we have cca 7 action for Beyond... AND 0 action for OW/Zero/Arena/Leviathan.
and the event really doesn't have to be an airdrop, as Kieran keeps making it out to be. Something like what I suggested here would suffice: BattlePass... Daily missions... ANY:
https://discord.com/channels/760344898200666112/1309491026364465172

[winged sun]

No one will play until we know the rules of the game. So far, unfortunately, we can only wait for the announcement

[opaque valve]

"No one will play until we know the rules of the game. " Agree! I say the same thing.
And ekonomy collapsing more and more... 😦
And increasingly drastic measures are being devised to reverse this situation... 😦

[drowsy pendant]

Personally I feel OW would be great if we had more to do. I like the idea of the narrative or lore being built, to some degree, by players, a little similar to Minecraft. However there would be more needed to do to make this happen. Use of resources to build things ext, or a separate universe, where it's player decided and the resources in OW are transferable.
It's a beautiful world and would it be a shame if the OW wasn't utilised. Im okay with it being a free game that's tied to purchases, maybe like ESO or something similar, I think some thinking outside the box is needed.

[spare ibex]

Knee jerk reactions won’t solve the game concept. What will solve it is interactivity. It feels like we are all saying the same thing.

[hybrid pebble]

Literally, that's what we do.

[drowsy pendant]

I mean recourses to build and do other things. Not just collect illuvials, unless thats changed in the last month?

[hybrid pebble]

According to you, can Illuvials only be collected in Overworld?

1. Collecting Illuvials
2. Fusing Illuvials
3. Creating equipment
4. Leveling up Illuvials
5. Creating team synergies

These are just five things I can think of right now. The team is working on increasing that number, so you can relax; they are thinking outside the box.