#50/50 Gaunlet leaderboard rewards or Gaunlet ranked leaderboard reduced

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wooden plover
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Hello everyone.

Before season airdrop begins I want to share my thoughts about leaderboard rewards.

I guess all of us agree that Leviathan mode rewards (Arena Leviathan/Gauntlet Leviathan) should be higher than "free modes" (Arena Ranked/ Gaunlet Ranked) because these require a lot of investment but the last ones don't.

However, by the other hand the game is just beginning, the game economy is barely growing and giving rewards in proportion to investment is going to generate a great inequity between "the rich" and "the poor" people. Basically, the rich get richer but in a proportion much bigger than the poor.

Due to the above, I want to propose that leaderboard rewards should be equals, as for free modes as for Leviathan modes. In this way, greater rewards could promote the game better and will encourage more people (i.e. tft players) to play de game.

Eventually these new players would reinvest part of their rewards buying good stats Illuvials for participating in the Leviathan rewards and little by little will grow the economy. As the economy and the game grow, rewards would increase for Leviathan modes, giving them priority and creating an incentive for investing.

Achieve this point is just possible with a good player base, but until then, attract more players should be our priority and giving 50/50 rewards would be a good start.

humble valve
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I think 50/50 is a good starting point. I have to imagine most players will gravitate to the non-leviathan mode, especially newer players, so the competition between modes becomes whether you want to test your power against the whales in the leaderboard, or compete with the masses on a more even playing field. Either way, both reward pools are substantial. Every month/season the team can adjust the spread based on data and feedback. 50% is still a huge pool to incentivize new players.

wooden plover
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50/50 Gaunlet leaderboard rewards

pure pollen
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If rewards for free to play modes are exactly the same as the paid modes, why would anyone purchase a team or play OW? Would kind of kill the demand.

Rewards for paid modes need to be substantially greater than free to play modes as these support the entire illuvium economy/game loop.

Pulling a random figure, I would say 80/20 paid/free would be far more reasonable.

pulsar silo
# pure pollen If rewards for free to play modes are exactly the same as the paid modes, why wo...

But if there is more people playing free mode and less playing paid mode. Isn't there actually a bigger reward for playing the paid mode?

Well maybe not if we do it in a way with leaderboard and rewarding the top 1000.

I don't know any numbers but 80/20 seems to much to me because it's not enough to draw in new players and the Leviathan is just too expensive especially if you are a newer player.

But I think it's way to early for this conversation until we know more details on how will everything work.

pure pollen
# pulsar silo But if there is more people playing free mode and less playing paid mode. Isn't ...

I believe the majority of people will go where they are incentivised to go.
If you heavily incentivise free to play, that is where the majority will go, why wouldn't they, but this will be very damaging to the economy as this will de-incentivise people from grinding OW or paying for teams etc.

But if there is more people playing free mode and less playing paid mode. Isn't there actually a bigger reward for playing the paid mode?

The tiers would pay the same in both leaderboards, providing they both have same places paid and the reward pool is the same.
One is free, one you need to invest a lot of money. Why would you choose to invest money for the same reward?

I don't know any numbers but 80/20 seems to much to me because it's not enough to draw in new players

Highly speculative, there's no way to know that.
Any reward for a free to play player is more than any other web2 game right out the gate.
Ultimately people need to aim for Leviathan if they want access to the best rewards, which will incentivise participation in the economy.
Overly incentivising free to play does the exact opposite.

wooden plover
# pure pollen I believe the majority of people will go where they are incentivised to go. If y...

First I want to say something. Whether the rewards are the same (or not) for Leviathan and free mode, there is a huge difference between both: In Leviathan you are going to have advantage if you have good Illuvials, so, it is going to be easier for you to reach top 10 and get the rewards. That is the main goal of investing.

And it is very likely that most of people is going to play free mode because of the huge difference among players who had good Illuvials and players who doesn't.

So look at it in this way: In paid mode there will be less competition and greater ease to obtain higher rewards. In free mode there will be much more competition and you require more effort for getting higher rewards.

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You say that greater rewards in Leviathan will encourage players to invest money buying Illuvials, but... what players? who is going to buy those Illuvials?

In Illuvium are players dedicated to OW and players dedicated to Arena. OW players work for Arena players, so, the more Arena players the more demand for OW.

How can we increase the amount of Arena players? There are a lot of players out of the game that would want to invest, but there are two problems:

  1. They don't know about the game.
  2. If you invite them to play, they need to invest a lot of money for building a good team and fight for rewards.

A barrier to entry too high limits the amount of players that would want to play the game, so, setting too higher rewards from the beginning is not going to work.

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I don't say that rewards should be 50/50 forever. What I say is that, the game is just beginning and the most important must be to increase the amount of people who play the game.

People is the most important for the growth of an economy. If the number of players increases, It will be a matter of time before demand for illuvials increases and prices rise.

ocean iris
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Rewards in a 50/50 ratio could have a destructive impact on the game. I am convinced that this approach would attract crypto farms, as they would see it as an easy way to profit. After all, why invest money into development if you can maintain an average level with ten accounts and earn more than with actual investments?

I am strongly against such distribution. Rewards should correlate with the effort and financial commitment put into the project, not the number of multi-accounts. 🚫

cedar pumice
cedar pumice
cedar pumice
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@warped carbon
boss. I want you to think seriously about the distribution of awards. It won't be easy to play Ranked and Leviathan in time both there and there. If you give more or like for Levi as a Ranked, then of course there will be more players to play Ranked, maybe me, too, since there is no investment at all. If you give more to the leviathan, everyone will understand that your priority is this competitive mode. I understand that the first time it is necessary to maintain a Ranked mode, but taking into account changes in the balance levels and stats, I think it will not be logical to give 50/50. This will be the last nail in the lid of the coffin of the Leviathan mode

glass locust
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our economy depends on leviathan

vale prawn
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our economy depends on DAU too. Lev, market, OW, everything relies on how many players we "hook" on a daily basis imho.

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An empty market or OW or Lev gauntlet will not sustain our economy.

warped carbon
cedar pumice
cedar pumice
vale prawn
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10k in ranked will obtain an huge visibility boost (streamers, content creators etc) and create retention. retention will power-up IBG logic and lure ppl into illuvials hunting, market activity etc.

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CS has only skins and make millions ser 😉

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We have a ten fold better market for our players than only skins

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We are aiming for hundreds of thousands.

cedar pumice
vale prawn
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I was a beta tester of CS wen it was only one of the several mods of HL (0.98 version if I remember correctly) but now we have a quite different internet audience, we have socials, we have new generations of players. Everything is lightspeed in comparison. (2000-2024) is a huge tech leap eh.

pure pollen
# wooden plover First I want to say something. Whether the rewards are the same (or not) for Lev...

So look at it in this way: In paid mode there will be less competition and greater ease to obtain higher rewards. In free mode there will be much more competition and you require more effort for getting higher rewards.

I'm not sure why people believe that Leviathan is going to be some kind of cake walk. This is a myth.
The people that are investing into building teams right now are the most dedicated players. They have skin in the game and are going to be trying very hard to get a return on that time/money.
The same will go for any new player that comes along that invests time and money to enter.
The idea that this will be easier to compete against than a bunch a free to play bots and noobs that have zero skin in the game is nonsensical.

With an equal distribution of rewards you could very well see multi accounting as the die hards from Leviathan go after the rewards in the free to play mode, making it extremely difficult for anyone else to get a look in on the leaderboards.

fervent onyx
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one has to understand the customers he speaks to with this kind of marketing.
As long as there are rewards paid out in a token you can't swap easily on the same page into $ on your bank account, the majority of interested people will be web3 player, not web2.
Majority of web3 player are in the space to extract value, not to spend their own money.
You saw/see that behaviour in many web3 games and you also saw that in previous airdrop seasons of illuvium.

Having rewards for a paid journey and a f2p journey results in 2 different behaviours in my opinion.

  • Try to exploit the f2p reward system with bots/multiaccounting etc.
  • Try to calculate if it is possible to get a profit in the paid systems and then play it or don't play it.

I would make f2p rewards non token rewards.
DAO could buy fuel of the market and reward it, there could be cosmetics, beyond disks maybe even land could be there for top rankings. Basically make the rewards so it could be interesting for web2 people and you actually onboard newcomers into the ecosystem.

wooden plover
cedar pumice
wooden plover
wooden plover
cedar pumice
cedar pumice
fervent onyx
wooden plover
cedar pumice
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the top 10 top 50 top 100 will better rewards than top 10000

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if ppl will be top 101 and cant win 100 - so other ppl lost motivation

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compare from other games how it works pls

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but if you did top 30 in ranked i will happy because more ppl will be play levi) with 10k places

cedar pumice
wooden plover
wooden plover
cedar pumice
cedar pumice
wooden plover
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Even it should be easier for him to achive top 10 if he has good illiuvials.

cedar pumice
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there are many ways to limit multi-acking - after transferring 3 days to ban in the game levi the same iluv, with purchased ones it does not count, if the player does not play more than 3 days in the leaderboard - he loses the rating and other ways

wooden plover
# cedar pumice The more rewards there are for the season, the more people want to get them. the...

It is not only about want to get them, but also about how much you need to spend to get them. We, current Illuvium players, already know that and have that mentality, but web2 players don't know that.

We need to arrive to those players and introduce them to this world, and a good way is showing interesting rewards.

It not makes sense to give rewards to Illuvials players in free modes. Of course not. Free rewards just should be for attract public.

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Maybe 50/50 rewards is not the best. Maybe it would be 60/40 o 70/30, but among other things, I think a smaller top with high rewards in free modes could work.

cedar pumice
wooden plover
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50/50 Gaunlet leaderboard rewards or Gaunlet ranked leaderboard reduced

wooden plover
cedar pumice
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I spent this time to my iluvs because than I will not have time - coz I will play every day in levi

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its easy understanding

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and you don't have time to play OW coz need play in levi, when do ypu need up levels for iluvs?

pure pollen
wooden plover
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But people why does play ranked and not Leviathan?

cedar pumice
wooden plover
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The patch is the same for both modes

cedar pumice
wooden plover
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Have you played Leviathan?

cedar pumice
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yes

wooden plover
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There are just 17 games in Leviathan, and I don't think it is recent

cedar pumice
wooden plover
humble valve
# pure pollen I believe the majority of people will go where they are incentivised to go. If y...

Most people won't settle into leviathan because most players won't sink thousands of dollars for top tier illuvials, which means they won't hit the leaderboards and receive rewards unless the rewards are tiered. It also gatekeeps bringing in new players which is what the airdrop is meant to do. I agree it's highly speculative though it will be hard to know until we get some real data. I think there will be far less people competing in leviathan though, so even with 50/50 the rewards will be larger per top ranking player.

pure pollen
humble valve
# pure pollen If this is to be the case and we see far less players in Leviathan, this will be...

There seems to be a big debate over what balance/nerfing of leviathan stats will allow skilled players with more affordable illuvials to still compete in leviathan and not have a consistently poor p2w experience. Tiered rewards for top 10, top 100, top 1000 could also help.

Personally I've spent around $300 on the game and I'm on the fence whether I want to play Leviathan or the f2p Arena, or will use illuvials in the future ascendant. The purchase of illuvials and running OW paid stages is mostly because I find the OW fun and having good illuvials let me run higher OW stages more comfortably, I'm also planning for future games. I'm not convinced leviathan is the end all be all to illuviums success, though I do think it is important. Maybe the rewards should be tuned to a 80/20 split, especially as the playerbase grows, but at the very start with a minimal playerbase is that really the wise move? Maybe, but idk

It has to be a balance between incentivizing whales and not gatekeeping/disincentivizing new people from trying out the game and joining the economy.

pure pollen
civic vessel
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I agree with spoon, cosmetic rewards for f2p and token rewards for leviathan sounds good to me

pulsar silo
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Few points that might be on topic but I would just like to mention them:

  1. We can't just dismiss f2p mode and say that it's not contributing anything. If that's the case then there is something wrong with the game. If nothing else, f2p brings players in to the ecosystem.

  2. Leviathan is really expensive to play especially if you want to compete for the top of the leaderboard. Also, imagine spending like $200 to get a decent deck and then meta changes and you basically wasted money (that's a possible thinking of some new players).

  3. Getting good stat Illuvials is really difficult and having better stats is giving you a lot of advantage - I would even say to much advantage. And it should be even harder to find good stat Illuvials. So if we want Levathian to be a bit more affordable we need to start with how the stats work.

pure pollen
# pulsar silo Few points that might be on topic but I would just like to mention them: 1) We ...
  1. We can't just dismiss f2p mode and say that it's not contributing anything. If that's the case then there is something wrong with the game. If nothing else, f2p brings players in to the ecosystem.

I think that was taken too literally. F2P will contribute a lot to onboarding and the economy eventually, providing the funnelling is strong, however the fact that they will be contributing little to none to the overall economy initially should be no surprise.
We do not want to incentivise this mode too strongly as to keep people there indefinitely, ultimately we want everyone across into Leviathan and contributing to the economy, not just extracting from it.

  1. Leviathan is really expensive to play especially if you want to compete for the top of the leaderboard. Also, imagine spending like $200 to get a decent deck and then meta changes and you basically wasted money (that's a possible thinking of some new players).

This will inevitably happen though. The meta needs to be shaken up from time to time to keep things fresh and interesting. We will also have new sets of illuvials introduced and have to build completely new decks.

  1. Getting good stat Illuvials is really difficult and having better stats is giving you a lot of advantage - I would even say to much advantage. And it should be even harder to find good stat Illuvials. So if we want Levathian to be a bit more affordable we need to start with how the stats work.

There has been much discussion surrounding this and it is looking like a rebalancing is coming.
Looks like they will be performing some robust testing before committing to anything, which is more than welcomed.

pulsar silo
pure pollen
pulsar silo
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Sorry, it’s really late and I’m really sick. By airdrop I meant the rewards in whatever format they come.

pure pollen
glass locust
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normal gauntlet is important for our streamers and for building the esport scene.
i imagine normal gauntlet would be our core playerbase.
then hopefully if they like the game, some players might spill over to leviathan.
both modes are important.
whales need shrimps to feed on.

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i think parallel has a really good system- afaik you need to own card nft to earn, scaled between 1 to 40 cards

scarlet oracle
pulsar silo
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Kieran also mention that all of the focus will be on Arena, and Overworld won't be worked on as much.
If that's the case we can't just put the whole focus on Levathian.
I agree with Jaganite (have no idea what parallel is doing) but the free to play gauntlet should be the focus and we need a way to extract money from players playing that mode, and not just expect that everybody will be playing Overworld that will not get any updates or buying the Illuvials on the market.