POLL: Arena Patch A vs B

[woven cradle]

Heres a post to gather sentiment on the 2 different patches. I invite everyone to read and test both patches to appropriately vote and share their opinion

First, I'd like to express my appreciation for the improvements brought by Patch A. Game design, especially regarding balance, has faced major challenges since the start of PB1. However, Patch A has clearly set a new standard. In the 2.5 years prior, we only saw about 3-4 weeks of a balanced meta overall, with every patch plagued by overpowered compositions, units, augments, or synergies. Hotfixes were rarely deployed, leaving players to wait 1-4 months for a patch that often introduced new issues

Patch A, on the other hand, was a complete overhaul. Despite its scope, it achieved an outstanding balance and was quickly supported with 2-3 hotfixes in the following days, something we haven’t seen before. Compared to Patch B, Patch A is undoubtedly superior in delivering a balanced and enjoyable experience

The guys that developed Patch A have shown a clear understanding of balance, and I strongly recommend that they take ownership of this area going forward. This approach would benefit the game and set a solid foundation for future patches. @surreal hare @empty gate

I will share my opinion on Patch A & B in the comment section

Please cast your vote and share your opinion down below!

Patch A 1️⃣
Patch B 2️⃣

Patch A pros:

-Great balance
Even while reworking every single thing, this patch achieve a great balance where rogues, psions, righters and empaths comps can all win

-New power scaling based on gauntlet economy

-Creatures have their stats more in line to their role and the animal their mimic in nature (bulwark more tanky, fighters higher dmg, psions more squishy/higher dmg, etc)

-Augment rework
Although some are still off, this patch brought a lot of change for the augments and overall were very good

-Hyper nerf
Hyper mechanic is amazing but was way too OP since it changed for 2 phase scaling multiple months ago

-Synergies threshold rework
I love the new 2-3-4-6 synergy threshold. It makes everything relevant and still gives nice boosts. The old 3-5-7-9 forces us to play everything on 3 and sometimes one on 5 as if you go all in you will always get hard countered by the counter hyper or class

Patch A cons:

-Augment balance
Another round or 2 is needed to balance the augments. Lifestorm and the double photonic bug is completely broken

-Lynx too good (especially empath lynx)

Those change were going to be fixed but patch A is on hold since 2 weeks ago as patch B was coming in (unfortunately got delayed 1.5 weeks)

Patch B pros:

-Power scaling based on gauntlet economy

-A couple needed augment nerfs

Both of those pros were also part of Patch A, even to a better extent

Patch B cons:

-Scaling highly based on tiers
I dont like this for multiple reasons. This makes higher tier illuvials too good compared lower tier one and close up the meta as you need to have a deck with the most high tier possible to stand a chance late game

The difference within tier is too small and doesnt leave place for the illuvial class nature to make an impact, titanor (colossus) only has 400 more health than an adorius (mystic) . Everything doesnt work naturally, another example with DPS is an adoredo (T5S2) deals the same amount of dmg as a Ryplance (T3S3). A blotto (bulwark/empath), deals more dmg than a nimble and relentless lynx.. I could go on for infinite example but im really concerned by this restricted tier based stats.

With classes all so close to each other for dps/health it makes it like all illuvials are the same. Bulwarks should be able to be more tanky because they on the other hand deal less dmg, empath should be squishy and not deal a lot of dmg because they are support. Now we will only use whatever class is the best, best illuvials, and higher tiers because all illuvials within the same tiers are pretty much the same

This change indirectly buffed empath health & dmg, bulwark dmg and psion health while not adjusting any illuvials omega ability for it. Only from reading this was obviously breaking up the entire balance more than ever and a couple games confirmed this concern

-Power scaling adapted to gauntlet economy
This is like patch A and its a great needed adjustment but this one is unbalanced, +50% for S2 and +140% for S3 makes S3 so superior that it forces the meta to be reroll comp which is bad for comp diversity. Reroll metas are also the lower skill expression ones

-Broken units
Higher stage, higher tier are extremely strong in this patch, for some reason i cant comprehend at least 4 of those super buffed op units got an additional mega buff

Umbre from 3 to 5 attack on omega dash
Titanor 4s stun (we used to have 3s back in the day and it was way too good
Adorius, the best support in-game, who is now also a dmg and tank unit, got his heal hit from 3 to 5
Shrimp beam now hits all units in his way

-Hyper not fixed
The introduction of 2 phase hyper multiple months back was an amazing idea. Unfortunately it wasnt balanced for the new change so all hyper effect doubled and the community has been clear that it was way too good as it is. Its just not fun at all to have a superior team and positioning but get soloed by a hyper phorus of jokull with good augments

-Synergy threshold of 3-5-7-9
Weve played with this for years and this 3-5-7-9 forces us to play everything on 3 and sometimes one on 5 as if you go all in you will always get hard countered by the counter hyper or class

Overall the difference between those patches is so big that i would totally support @junior palm idea and advocate to straight cancel patch B

[sturdy tangle]

totally agreed

patch A is much better, but need some fixes and balancing some things (some augs, lynxes, scorios and ophisto lines imho)

[lusty steeple]

You made a typo in the original post I think. You are referring to B but said A again

[cobalt orbit]

i haven't played patch B so i can't really give a good faith argument on canceling it but i played the live version 12 hours a day for a few days and it was addicting, reminiscent of early tft days. IMO besides the bugs the variety of comps and power levels is a really nice baseline where you can just have small patches with this patch as the base straight up

[junior palm]

I agree completely with this assessment.

It's interesting - we haven't spoken at all about this, but our conclusions are nearly identical.

[cobalt orbit]

also the idea of steamlining stats based on purely the tier of the illuvials is a bit off, there's nothing wrong with rogue comps hitting mutliple T1S3s or other comps hitting a specific T3S3/T4S3 carry winning the lobby against bill gates T5S2 stack comps.

[brittle glen]

let's not forget that we're still missing a piece of the puzzle and that is the introduction of the ranger. This will mean it'll become easier to achieve higher synergy thresholds with it.

[full olive]

Honestly, when I first read about simultaneously testing two different builds at such a critical point in the game's development, I was both perplexed and disheartened. I've always believed that unity is strength, and that dividing resources, energy, and development efforts into multiple parts is a luxury that only large companies can afford, not a small, yet incredibly talented, software house like ours.

Now, more than ever, time is of the essence. We need to move beyond vague promises of "in the future" or "we're considering." It's time to make a decision, to take a risk, perhaps, but to have the courage to tackle this final, steep climb together, listening to real, human beta testers instead of relying solely on scripts and simulations. Let's interact more with the player base to gather the kind of feedback and sentiment that only they can provide.

Let's carefully choose one of the two options and make it the last time the team splits their efforts. Let's move forward together, united in our goal of creating a game that will become a landmark in this genre, blending tried-and-true mechanics with unprecedented innovations.

That being said, I'll still take some time to test version B, but I must admit that, even in its unoptimized state, version A is ten times superior.

[junior palm]

I haven't forgotten that. The issue is that the synergy thresholds being lower is better for player agency by increasing the number of possible builds and also it feeds into the endgame having more diverse comps vs linear comps. It's objectively a better system.

[cobalt orbit]

I mean it's a good thing they did it, imagine patch A was not the first one and we didn't get to see it

as a parallel to tft very rarely are the best comps just 5-6-7-8-9 of the same synergy, and that usually happens when the synergy is broken, but usually the best comps are 2-3-4x synergy+ other 2-2-2 synergies

[junior palm]

If patch "B" was first, we'd still all be out looking for patch "A" lol

[lethal pilot]

This is very personal, just me and my thoughts playing a say median amount compared to the playerbase for both patchs (patch B mostly internally)

I feel quite strongly that patch A weights the early game too much, I feel this largely comes from me having a preference for late game comps and "power fantasy", but I also feel early game is too overtuned (Fliish, many T1 rogues, some lynxes). There's obviously some other strong options which we are seeing in player data, but the above is more macro design of the power curve across tiers, stages. Seeing a S2 Fliish in a Round 25 comp over a different Psion just feels off

That said, I can see that being fun for players and I think it does good on the "meaningful" decision space and therefore competitive play, where all decisions throughout the game are important, not just "chill" until late and then the game starts

I do think the patch was better before the synergy shift to 2,3,4,6 though. In some synergies why not, but across the board feels unimpactful to me

Imo:

• The obvious balance iteration on mostly augments
• Tweak the power curve slightly, a tad more at the top or a tad less at the bottom
• Revert the synergy threshold change but bring them closer together, making them impactful to reach without getting auto-hypered

[cobalt orbit]

it didn't feel to me that early game is too overtuned exactly, more so that grokkos and volantes are absolute trash, dokkas are mid, but frillishes and atipos are so much better, so you get really coinfliped on winstreaks depending on which 0 costs u're seeing in the first 3 shops. And on the same point people are also donkey leveling so you will take more damage early if you didn't, but then you're guaranteed top 4 if you can play out a loss streak properly. The frillish at 25 thing i can't speak about, all i know is starting level 7 i start replacing them with squizz/alphie/mathu/phyri

slow rolling 6 for stage3 rogues does feel very broken if u're not contested tho

[junior palm]

I agree that the Flishes are overtuned and we have many, many other issues. But these are small things that are easy to tweak. The base is here, finally. And, that tweaking or fixing of minor things like fliishes being too strong currently should be done in quick even succession - either weekly tweeks or biweekly. This is the next step that must be taken to get this snowball of a large enthusiastic player base started.

[cobalt orbit]

tft is never actually balanced, they just choose what they break and make useless every 2 weeks, and that keeps the game fun, this current gauntlet patch tho feels almost balanced

[junior palm]

This is actually something RIOT does well imo. They are so good at their balance. And then when they drop new characters, they have them just slightly uptuned to generate loads of demand. It's impressive.

[lethal pilot]

Yep this is the plan, but we need a strong base to iterate on

The better said base from a feel POV, the better its iterations

[empty gate]

Hey guys. I wanted to post my thoughts on balance here, because I don't think a poll like this helps. But let me explain why.

The plan for Arena is to cast a wide net with regards to balance. Framing this as "A vs B" isn't helpful, because there's going to be C, D, and E coming very soon. With each patch we want to include a lot of overhaul. There are 4 new features over the next few months before the game is in a 'final' state. During that upheaval we want to ensure that we aren't narrowing down on a single design.

We will be doing very bold things in patches as we try to discover what you all really love. So there are always going to be some things you like, and some things you don't.

What would be much more helpful is simply to tell us the things you like, and the things that you don't.

[indigo cloak]

Patch A much better, 2,3,4,6 much better. Nil already had an update to his patch A for over a week now, thats what im looking forward to.

Patch A was the closest thing to balance weve had. Nil was going to tweak some things to balance more.

[full olive]

"The plan for Arena is to cast a wide net with regards to balance. Framing this as A vs B"

No ser..the team was clear stating this "we have two options" which of the two you like the most?

[junior palm]

I like when the game is balanced. I don't like when the game is not balanced.
It's a simple point to make, but it's absolutely vital.

[empty gate]

The ranger is just one of 4 changes we have planned. It is the largest change, sure, but the point is there is so much yet to come.

[empty gate]

Who stated this? Because they have framed it wrong if they did.

What we would like to know is "What things do you like?"

Having things be balanced is obviously a large part of it being enjoyable, no doubt. But we are also looking into the moment to moment fun you have playing the game.

From that perspective, we would like you to take a look a the different things and say which parts you find more fun.

This is what will really help us: Do you like when synergies are powerful / subtle, Do you like when tiers are spread out or narrow, etc. You may prefer everything from one patch or another and that's great. I would just like to look at those details and find a way to keep increasing the fun factor each time.

[cobalt orbit]

Like:

1. Having variety in 2-3 synergies being good, 4-6 synergies being good, in the same patch.
   Example: 2 Best comps in the game psions and rogues: both work with 4-6 psion/rogue synergy + supporting 2/3 empath synergy
   At the same time you can play 2 fighters, 2 bulwarks, 2 empaths, so you're not locked into playing a specific way.
   On the same note, i love being able to just splash 2x synergies into any/most comps.

2. Hitting 3-4~ T1S3s (rogues) being a lobby wincon.
   Hitting a good item Vermilliare/Scoriox being a lobby wincon.
   Not being forced into linear highest tier = highest power.

3. Variety of viable comps that are actually good, currently the entire lobby can play an actual good, potential to win the lobby comp. Balance changes could turn this into whole lobby gambling rolling the same 1 comp because it's just better than the other ones instead.

Don't Like:

1. Being forced into comps, especially linear 6+ synergy ones.

2. The way items currently work, some items are way better than other ones and i'd rather see a tft style of getting components and actually increasing player agency instead of : here's 3 full items, hope u don't lowroll.

3. I'm not a fan of 0 cost units, especially when half of them are currently way weaker than the other half, this just removes some possible player agency and is asking for possible abuse cases.

4. Having to fight for the categorically best comp with the whole lobby.

5. T5>T4>T3>T2>T1 automatically, no variance.

[empty gate]

Thank you. This is the sort of feedback we are after, (and @woven cradle I don't want you to feel like I'm calling you out, you listed the stuff that you liked in both and that's important).

FYI: We are moving to a type of component system soon.

[full olive]

Jay | Illuvium — 10/23/2024 8:01 PM
@Announcements 🔔

Gauntlet Balancing Survey - Patch A

Rangers,

As many of you know, we have been working on two different Gauntlet patches. For the past few days, you've been playing on Patch A, and in the coming days, we'll push Patch B to the testnet environment.

To help us improve the game balancing, we’re gathering your feedback on both patches. Starting now, we are rolling out a Survey for Patch A. In about 1-2 weeks, we’ll follow up with a Survey for Patch B.

Once both surveys are completed, we will review the results to see which patch you enjoyed the most and what you enjoyed the most in each patch to come back with a refined version.

[empty gate]

Yep ok, that's my bad, I can see where you guys are coming from now.

Just to be clear: the most important thing right now is for you to tell us which types of things you find the most fun.

As a whole, letting us know which patch is more balanced is important too, so let us know that as well.

[indigo cloak]

we need to see the new patch update Nil has for his patch A

[empty gate]

You will! And letting us know the stuff you like and dislike will help improve things further. We are going to put a massive effort into Arena before Christmas. I mean MASSIVE. So you are going to see a shit ton of patches as we find as much fun as we can.

[ocean forge]

I think Patch B fighter synergy is most fun, There is only few fighter comps, so 8 synergy is like special things bcs we cant use it on every match, but the other synergy is better on the patch A.

Like psion or empath synergy, there is no way people will use 8-9 synergy of empath or psion, i try the 9 empath on testnet before it's really2 weird and not worth to use it's ruin everything just to used 9 of them , and easly destroyed by Hyper comp

[woven cradle]

Where exactly, i dont see it from quick read

[lusty steeple]

I thought in third alinea but reading it again I think I misread, sorry

[analog crystal]

@leaden furnace

[lunar viper]

I'm not sure about the balance yet, but after playing Patch B a few times, I feel that the synergy doesn't activate immediately, so the UI is a little less exciting to look at.

2,3,4,6 is more fun because I can switch illuvials around in small increments, and I think it makes the most of illuvial's variety.

[shell glade]

As for the synergy thresholds, 2,3,4,6 are good.
But I don't like the mild synergy of patch A.
A higher threshold of 8 would be even more interesting

[vast hemlock]

2,3,5,7 could be something to consider. You get the benefits of early/smaller comps with the 2/3 and then you get more of a challenge with 5/7 without it feeling like you have to go all out compared to patch B.

[brittle glen]

I don't really like the lvl 3 threshold, doesn't feel that much meaningful, 2 and 4 yes 👍
I like the 2,4,6,8. If you wanna have a big boost you have to commit with it but you also get the risk of being hyper countered.

[vast hemlock]

It's not mega meaningful but it's feels like that small bump over 2 to give you a little dopamine hit, and it's easier to have comps early/mid game. I think removing 3 could remove the magic of patch A, but hard to know without testing your suggestion.

[mellow moat]

Very interesting

I think synergies should be slightly more impactful, we will try to increase that slowly until we feel that even from 2-3 threshold change, a skilled player can capitalize on the power increase.

[brittle glen]

yeah you're right maybe with 2,3,5,7 we can increase the impactfulness of the level 3 synergy.

we already played with 2,4,6,8 on patch B

[brittle glen]

I agree, the playerbase is not big enough to spread it in two patches. If we're doing these to study some metrics than we should just release these patches in the mainnet.

[vast hemlock]

I think testnet should be for additional features only (like a new movement mechanic in overworld), not for A/B testing on Gauntlet as it splits player base too much. @mellow moat

[leaden furnace]

The game feels like in one of the healthiest state (balance wise) yet. However this may be too soon to say, since meta needs to develop more. This kind of game is 100% impossible to balance, these big changes like patch A and B should happen between seasons to make bring some dynamic to the table. You guys definetly should focus more on bug fixes and QOL, since those are way more critical than meta and balance that will never please everyone.

[indigo cloak]

We can not do this without having immediate hot fix option to disable broken augments

[hallow solstice]

2,3,5,6 imo

[hallow solstice]

tbh pretty hard to determine till ranger is in game ?.?

[woven cradle]

Patch A was on a very good direction, we literally had like 3 hot patches in the following days/week

The remaining augments to adjust and s3 virtuous lynx would have been fixed but patch A had to stop updating 2 weeks ago because Patch B was taking over

Even with the current freezes and crash we could have launch season 3 and start the competitive scene on time if patch B didnt exist