Remove Illuvial Levels, Add Account Level

[winter temple]

So clearly theres going to be a move toward lowering the power level of illuvials, at this point i feel that the levels are whats unbalancing all of this. This is coming from a non-biased perspective, i have spent a ton of time and money/energy in leveling.

If we remove levels, it will make it easier for players to play leviathan, since they will just need to farm or grab illuvials off market without having to spend too much time/energy, its more right off the get go.

Leviathan will become easier to balance, with just based off pure illuvial stats.

We can than possibly implement a User Account Level, where whenever you go into an overworld, arena, etc you gain XP for your user account, and there will be Quests/progression and exclusive rewards for reaching higher and higher account levels, such as cosmetics, emotes, disks, skins, etc . With this you can also implement a burning mechanism as well to earn/gain user account level XP.

This will still make good stat illuvials stay valuable, make leviathan easier to access for average player, and better for bad stat illuvials for the burn to user account XP/skin/emote/etc.

Thoughts?

[lunar igloo]

Why not try as it currently is before start making changes.... No one knows how this is going to unfold why should we rush decisions when there's no data to support them?

[lofty raven]

removing levels causes colossal damage to the economy which is like a dead cat, we will never get out of this hole and will sit in it forever until investors sell the token and ILV will have a couple of bucks
and even tournaments with 1000 ilv will look funny and no one will need them

[winter temple]

how tho? how will this hurt good stat illuvials?

when the leviathan will be based solely on the pure stats.... that would make good stat illuvials valuable...

[lofty raven]

now you need 5-6 days of about 50-70 runs to reach 3-4 iluivals of level 60,

its a lot of gas

[winter temple]

yeah, were replacing it with User Account Levels... where you grind to get your account level higher, which will have perks/rewards every milestone

[lofty raven]

for your iluvs?

[winter temple]

no, for the USER Account. nothing to do with illuvials, like your profile will be leveled, so when youre in Sanctum Mesa and rangers are running around they can right click your name and view profile, see your level, skins, etc thats what im suggesting

So the more you play arena, grind overworld, and so on you earn XP for your profile user account based on milestones, quests, etc

[lofty raven]

we can fase with bots problem and multiacking like during airdrop, bots don't pump lvl in levi 100%

if i dont want to do quests how to make me do it? with levels i understand that i will be stronger and will climb higher on the table

[lofty raven]

and I think we will have that you told - quest missions etc

[winter temple]

brother, the cosmetic marketplace is a multi billion if not trillion dollar business.
getting exclusive skins, disks, emotes, and so on is an incentive to grind XP

with this system it will make it easier for players to get involved in leviathan as well.

while still holding value to good stat illuvials

[lofty raven]

i am not sure that we need to concentrate the 1st on skins than battles, leaderboard etc
I believe in cosmetics like an additional positive aspect but when we don't have anything now...

[winter temple]

brother, this is literally primarily concentrated on making Leviathan more popular.....

[lunar igloo]

just throw more money at Leviathan and it will be popular. It's simple.

[noble birch]

If illuvial level remove how to fusion illuvial ?
I think will be have much change in game system

[hollow trail]

Account Level is coming anyways afaik, but thats not a reason to erase illuvial Levels.
I Like they have Levels, it shows you have history with your illuvial if it is of a high Level, connects with you and is a Progress bar people want to try to fill

[winter temple]

you would still have to use fuel + you can add a burning mechanism there, resources, etc replacing it wont be an issue

[lofty raven]

buddy i am ready to everything but before tey need co compensate us our 60 lvl) in eth

[sturdy sapphire]

From the start: ILU HAS 2 STATS: 6 main stats (OP, dmg...) and LVL ... Why you destroy it BEFORE "first leviathan season" ... again and again same ideas... destroy "time and effort of those, which play last months preparing to Leviathan mod..."

[noble birch]

So all illuvial will be reset include all lluvial in the marketplace ?

[winter temple]

i dont think anyone in here is looking at this from a non biased perspective which is why i see replies like "i already have lvl 60 all, etc

[sturdy sapphire]

With this "ideas" it better not play, just making bots or multiaccounts with VPN... and earn airdrop for nothing... REALLY WE WANT IT?

[winter temple]

like dudes, i also have high level illuvials, im thinking about what to do for more players to play in leviathan otherwise youre not gonna get the rewards you think youre gonna get.

[lunar igloo]

the leaderboard rewards are fixed and have nothing to do with the amount of players...

[sturdy sapphire]

I dont have all at 60 ... but working on it months... and now? I'll send it to the trash. NICE

[winter temple]

why send to the trash? if its good stats, it will be good stats, were not touching the stats itself.

[lofty raven]

there is no time left, how much longer can we drag this out - the team needs to decide what they are doing next, we need to decide if we want to live with this
I'm really tired of this chaos

[winter temple]

if its not clear, theres definitely not going to be ton of Leviathan players, because simply theres only a handful

can we agree on this?

[lofty raven]

i know one thing - stability high rewards every season = a lot new players

[winter temple]

i understand, i just wanted to see what people think on this, either way the power % of illuvials are going to be lowered regardless about 75%

[lunar igloo]

such drama over speculation... Why not just wait for official info? This idea is bad, I'm out.

[lofty raven]

i have a lot friends - they are ready to spend a lot money for team and leveling and ask me when??? i can't tell them - its time coz I won't they west a lot of money like me

[winter temple]

ill delete it theres no point, we cant think no biased

"i have levl 60 lets not do it who cares if theres 50 leviathan players only

[lofty raven]

its 1 st season

[winter temple]

i suggested not touching anything for the 1st season #1300803600150298645 message

[lofty raven]

yeap 100%

[winter temple]

but its gonna be touched like i said about 75%

[lofty raven]

i think about 2-3 season coz 1st season will have less rewards than should

[winter temple]

imo, without levels, Leviathan beccomes more popular than casual

[sturdy sapphire]

And If I play and waste GAS and time for making XP? This "idea" all sent it to trash... Its hundreds of hours of just "useless battles for XP"

[cobalt storm]

I don't agree with removing levels or downgrading the stats.
If people think that they lose because they dont pay enough, there is a mode called casual.
People can go to casual if they want only their skills to matter.
So i would suggest to stop talking about this stupid subject, because it only makes it propagate.

[winter temple]

i literally brought this up becuase for the 5th time, THE LEVELS ARE GOING TO BE NERFED

[cobalt storm]

No they wont. I havent seen a single subject about that except this
Nothing should be nerfed

[hollow trail]

Wild you think you are the only one able to Look at it from a non biased perspective 😄

[sturdy sapphire]

Kieran last MESSAGE? He say we plan nerf stats and lvl

[cobalt storm]

Where? Can you point me to it? Thanks

[sturdy sapphire]

#1300803600150298645 message

• answers...

[cobalt storm]

https://tenor.com/view/wtf-what-the-fuck-the-fuck-is-this-wth-gif-17571836

[sturdy sapphire]

English is not my native language... maybe I misunderstood him... but it sounds clear to me... "let's forget everything that has happened from the beggining and before season 1 Leviathhan drops starts, let's really cut it down and nerf it"

[cobalt storm]

Still the levels are free. If we remove levels, then we are making the game lazy

[gray cosmos]

Love the account level idea, but sorry I hate the idea of removing illuvial levelling.

Competing at the highest level of anything requires a large time and usually a significant financial investment, why should illuvium be any different.
Why would a casual expect to compete with the most skilful/well funded with so little time spent in game.
This is why different leagues are necessary, but the lion share of rewards go to your "premier league"., and this will attract the spenders and the grinders.
With a focus on scholarships, this should help skillful/commited players to rise to the "premier leage" with very small financial investment.

[cobalt storm]

@gray cosmos i dont know if you want to be in the council. But you and @lunar igloo should be elected next

[jovial crescent]

We just need more interesting and fun ways to level imo. Rn it's about as fun as licking sandpaper. Imagine if illuvium announced double exp for all fire based affinity illuvials this weekend or something like this. We need PvP and PvE exp events to drive engagement and retention. This is how we make L60 achievable for all.

[winter temple]

good luck all

[cobalt storm]

True.
Bonus exp weekends and events like that.
Also we have leveling in ascendant, leveling in ow and leveling in gyms will come. So plenty of ways to level

[gray cosmos]

Yes, events such as these would be

[jovial crescent]

Whales can push levels outside of events and pay the cost of doing so if they wish. Those with less time/money can wait for exp events to catch up and make the most of their time/budget. It's a win win imo

[blissful quartz]

A stat squish is coming so 50% on all stats won't mean 50% anymore it will mean a fraction of that. How do you propose this will create value for good Stat illuvials?

[winter temple]

at this point do whatever you guys want, if i could close and delete this post i would.

[blissful quartz]

It's a serious question to which I have not heard a serious response just people arguing that their way is better than the original implementation of the game which we have all been playing thus far....

[sturdy sapphire]

No, I say this system 6x50 stats + 1% lvl bonus is OK. It's been presented this way from the beginning, it supports the market, it supports active play...
On the other hand, the uncertainty of possible significant global nerfs significantly reduces the activity of players and "whales"...

I'm not against any minor changes to individual iluvials within the balance. But a global NERF of stats or XP is just stupid and a waste of the whole active player base that is here.

Only multiaccounts and bots can be happy... they will create a lot of accounts with zero investment of time/money, grab the rewards from the airdrop and show all active players the middle finger 🙂

[blissful quartz]

Agreed

[hollow cypress]

I think it's fine as it his. But if we want to touch levels, instead of removing illuvial levels, you can burn the same illuvial to transfer exp. You either buy the exp on the market or play in overworld and then it is not as bad. You can play 3 of the same to level it faster or if you find a better stats, you don't feel as bad having a level 60

[sturdy sapphire]

You can "gain XP" on 9 S1 Illuvials... and after fusion theire XP they add up :))) But too much effective 😉

But it isnt too hard to gain XP for lvl 50 or 60 😉

If you want, I making it for myself and partially for other players, if they want and pay me 🙂

[outer saddle]

I think it is good that posts can't just be deleted if the author is unhappy how the community is disagreeing with the proposed changes and is having a healthy conversation about it.

[winter temple]

let me tell you, this doesnt make me unhappy, i actually benefit from you guys keeping levels lol.

its completely up to you guys, i dont ever wanna hear someone tell me im biased about anything leviathan after this. remember, you guys chose this 🙂

im certain people will get a nice wake up call tho in leviathan when the time comes

[sturdy sapphire]

I'm really looking forward to wake up call 🙂 I would like to WIN! 🙂 But TOP20 will be good too... 😉
I admit that the last few days I've completely lost the desire to play and grab enbo or buy the last few missing 240+ ILV... Instead of average 4-10 T3 maps a day I play max 1-2 😦
This nerfs is big demotivationg...

PS: How much account have more than 50x 280+ Illuvials? 5? 10? Not more If my scaner not lie :)))))

[lofty raven]

how much from this ppl play good> 2-5? 🙂

[sturdy sapphire]

Or 1? 0? 🤣 I dont know 🙂

[lofty raven]

i know a few - like whity

[sturdy sapphire]

Yes. mee too.. that was joke 🙂 But I'm not sure whity has 50x 280+ lvl 60 ilv... 😉

[blissful quartz]

Will be refreshing beating the brakes off of someone that has a $10k deck only having spent $5 and watching the latest web3 gaming strategy video... can't wait

[sturdy sapphire]

5 usd vs 10000 usd probably not win... sorry, you have no chance to buy "trash T5 or T4 illuvials" to "end parts for it" for total 5 USD.
But yes, active player can use 0 USD in start... invest theire TIME: for playing, selling good Illuvials, sell ingots, shards... and earn money and win vs player, which only "buy" top package for 10000 USD and play "bad" 🙂

For example me selling 300+ stats for "TOP players/whales" ... and play with the "rest" 240+ ... And it is competetive and I can win... If I have liitle luck, play good... and enemy play average 🙂

[outer saddle]

That is a wild assumption. I would think that the balance changes will still give a HUGE advantage to bigger wallets but make the game actually enjoyable and allow for a bigger playerbase in order to make leviathan gauntlet succeed. If nobody plays it, the 10k wallet will likely lose all it's value in the long run i'd assume.

[blissful quartz]

Brother Kieran literally described the goal as being able to beat perfect stat illuvials by playing better than your opponent

[sturdy sapphire]

Yes, but not with 0 trash... you need... for example 240+ ... And it is not impossible or expensive 🙂

[outer saddle]

Some players are sadly not in for the long-run success of illuvium and advocate for a worse game if it gives them higher chances of extracting the most amount of money in the short term.

[blissful quartz]

He mentioned mid stats vs perfect stats last time I checked mid stats are fractions of the cost of perfect stats

[sturdy sapphire]

You mean players, which want DESTROY / nerf stats and lvl? 🙂

[winter temple]

yes, thats why i made this post, always going to be an unbalance with levels in it

[blissful quartz]

You got it

[winter temple]

im actually proposing something that i think is better for leviathan onboarding versus benefiting myself

[blissful quartz]

Important to define success if success means having everyone play at challenger rank then it is an unrealistic goal to have people enter leviathan do the bare minimum and be able to beat the best illuvials in the game... that sounds like equal outcome not equal opportunity

[sturdy sapphire]

Yes.... for example rypterus: +300 = 130 USD ... +250 = 4 USD ... and the real different? 3,7% in real absolut stat in HP or DMG (include XP, basic stats, "movement" etc...)
Chance to RNG criticall? 10-30% for 300% DMG ... let do cancel this function 🙂 It have better impact to fight than stats +250 / +300 😭

[winter temple]

got a nice bag of these in da wallet

[outer saddle]

I think there is a way to nerf stats without "destroying" anything and improving the game. Still giving big wallets a huge advantage. And bring the best long term chances of success for Illuvium and leviathan.

[winter temple]

as long as youre not touching the actual stats i dont care what you guys do with levels.

[outer saddle]

Success in my opinion is having a big enough playerbase in leviathan to justify more rewards and tournaments for it in the long-run. Which will allow players to play versus people of similar wallet sizes.

[blissful quartz]

My point exactly if I can spend $4 and beat your $100+ illuvial why would anyone buy the $100+ illuvial?

[sturdy sapphire]

Really nefr make sucess for Illuvium? How much season of Leviathan was played??

Really only one statist of funny and "testing" matches, which players makes now, without any leaderboard or prices? OMG

[outer saddle]

It is activly being tested internally, as far as i'm aware.

[winter temple]

well doesnt it make it more accessible and easier for players to be ready for leviathan without levels in?

[blissful quartz]

So what you are saying is the that if we nerf stats then it ensures we get a large player base?

[sturdy sapphire]

Because hes play badly and want to win :)))

Why average golfist buy best "golf club" Because he want to be better and maximalize theire chance... if he has money and less skill :)))

[outer saddle]

I like your thought process but I think removing levels all together is too drastic of a move in the current early stages. I'm intruiged by the solutions proposed above by others about making leveling more fun or accesible without removing them all together.

[sturdy sapphire]

NAME OF THIS IS CASUAL or RANKED :-)

They can 🙂

[shut pilot]

i dont want to have huge advantage, i want total domination using the perfect illuvials i spent my money on

[lunar igloo]

really sad we're already talking about nerfs this early on...

[winter temple]

yeah, this makes sense if you have 1,000 10,000 etc players playing it.

if you cant get this, you think theyre gonna put in a bunch of rewards for lev?

[outer saddle]

At the risk of this "not feeling like a game anymore" and ending up with a game-mode of 10 players, ultimately leading to a failed game-mode?

[shut pilot]

i just want to get what i paid for lol

[lunar igloo]

it's always the loud minority that makes the ruckus

[sturdy sapphire]

really sad talking about nerf WITHOUT first season ... the statistick be there from a begginning of game... and no one play Leviathan seriously now

[winter temple]

youre calling me the loud minority? let me see your hours in this game please

[lunar igloo]

that's such nonsense...

[lunar igloo]

dude chill the fuck out I said nothing about you.

[shut pilot]

imagine you bought a lambo.
then the gov comes and nerf your horsepower: "the prius owners are complaining"

[lunar igloo]

unless you're on the group of the cry babies that say stats are too OP and "I don't have time to level up my illuvials"

[blissful quartz]

How can testing be done without the player base to back it up. Coming up with solutions to problems that don't exist yet sounds like a waste of devs and resources. There are real problems to mass adoption in the forms of bugs and crash in every game mode currently which have been around for months. Maybe we get a large player base if we fix problems that actually exist first before worrying about theoretical problems??

[lunar igloo]

catering to ppl who don't invest and don't play the game is the biggest mistake we can make

[outer saddle]

To "ensure" anything right now seems unrealistic. I think it gives better chances for a bigger place to have a less polarizing gamemode. Instead of every medium sized wallet being dominated and it being impossible for them to reach top 4. Leading to a downward spiral in players.

The best solution I can think of to satisfy both sides is to scale stats back up with increasing playerbase. But the team has let us know multiple times after internal testing that leviathan right now does not even feel like a game anymore. Which is bad I think.

[lunar igloo]

Paz listen... If there's a handful of whales with perfect stats they'll play in the top league against each other. They won't have nothing to do with the plebs. There's room for plebs in leviathan as well...

[outer saddle]

The first stages of testing for new patches for example, is always internal QA I think. Blindly launching something to the playerbase is not a good idea imo.
But we do have different stages for it after internal testing, like the testnet. which is great

[lofty raven]

we don;t have any season))) ofc not feeling)

a lot of ppl during month bought and pump level)

[outer saddle]

100%! This is only possible if if there is enough players for that. Which is needed from the get-go to not fall in a vicious circle i think.

[blissful quartz]

I'll remind you of what happened with such a drastic change to fuel production.... the solution is always thought of as the right way to go at the time, but in reality the result does not match what is proposed

[outer saddle]

And the chances of getting a high playerbase increase with a less polarizing gamemode imo. And proper incentivisation

[lunar igloo]

to me this feels like whoever is calling the shots is fucking clueless about the game we have here. First the talk of hiding stats in the OW removing the little agency players still have. Now nerfing leviathan to accommodate for the whinny plebs. I swear they really know how to piss on their own game.

[shut pilot]

the whole economy is based on leviathan lol

[lofty raven]

maybe we just launch the leaderboard and the season and step aside and see?)

[outer saddle]

The fuel supply issue right now is a big topic with lot of caveat to it and something we shouldn't jump into in this thread i think.

[winter temple]

we clearly need to have a verbal conversation as if you think this post is about hurting leviathan you guys didnt read what i wrote

[blissful quartz]

Don't we have a game mode that caters to players who have no desire to spend $10k on a deck? Having a game mode such as what you are describing doesn't seem to have the impact to the player base that some think it will

[outer saddle]

Please stay respectful to the team and other community members.

[shut pilot]

not commenting on your post just wanna say something

[sturdy sapphire]

Hm... may be public test?

May be "weekly leaderboard for 150 ILU" ? You will see real data! Not 20 testers

[outer saddle]

I didn't talk about nerfing anything down to a free2play level at all. talking about LESS polarizing. Not about not polarizing. Again, bigger wallet should have a HUGE advantage.

[shut pilot]

leviathan is about whales fighting whales. whats the point of having 2 separate mode but not polarizing

[cobalt storm]

The reason we are not getting players is because all the game modes are bad.
Comparing to LOL which gave people a beautiful ranking system, which gives you borders, a system of progressing and things like that.
We don't have a good ranking system.
I would not mind playing leviathan if my placement was silver and played with people in silver.
But now people would not play leviathan or any game mode because we are playing rank #3000 with rank #1.
I don't think that people that have illuvials with medium stats would be upset playing against people with similar stats. Its not like their first encounter will be with the ones from challenger rank. They will have a progression system. Play with medium stats and low levels, then level the illuvials a bit, climb a rank, buy a better illuvial, climb another rank.

[sturdy sapphire]

Yes, SUPER BOWL TEAM (Kansas City) have same money as "springfields isotops" :)) And Isotops can defeat all and win tournament ... REALY FROM LIFE 🙂

And PC nerd every win vs Muhamad Ali in box :)

[blissful quartz]

When you say huge advantage that doesn't sound like what Kieran described in VC last night. He described balanced as someone with mid stats as being able to beat someone with perfect stats by playing better hence why I am here discussing this with you

[lofty raven]

comparing with tesla)

[lunar igloo]

I completely disagree with your take, leviathan needs to be extremely polarizing, and that's why there's different leagues.

otherwise you're just devaluing the illuvials and saying they're not worth it.

[sturdy sapphire]

REASON, WHY not getting players is Bug, uncertainty, discontinuity and tragic communication with players. Anyone who is not on Discord knows absolutely nothing.

[lunar igloo]

if you don't want to be obliterated by ppl who spent their time/money on their illuvials go play normal mode.

[cobalt storm]

If some player thinks that he is better than the opponent, but he lost because one of his illuvial had -10% on damage, than he should aproach casual. There you see the skill.
Leviathan is not a battle of skill, but a battle of money. It is not for everyone, and it should not be. Casual is for every single player out there.

[lofty raven]

such a player should get off his ass, go to ow and fuse himself the same or level up his)

[cobalt storm]

If i am a new player and want to play a good game i go casual.
If i want to try leviathan, i would go slowly. And climb the rank. This is a long term commitment.

[sturdy sapphire]

And -10% on dmg stats... with same lvl is less than 5% REAL different:
For EXAMPLE:
1000 BASE
+60 % LVL
+50 stat
= 2100 DMG

1000 BASE
+60 % LVL
+40 stat
= 2000DMG

2000 / 2100 = 4,762% different..

**How big different you can make with good tactics? RNG? (Critticall +300% DMG ...), affinity, element advantage? ETC ? ** Really less than 5% NOT = BEST tactick win over best stat ... ...

Simillar skill have less (4,7%) disadvantage ... and can have luck 🙂

Why need nerf?

[cobalt storm]

Free to play players will have a nice game to play, while the crypto enthusiasts will have a good palce to show off.
Having 2 separate leaderboards.
Look at lol how it did with solo/duo and the flex (team)

[sturdy sapphire]

Yes, Exactly. If I want to play football from tomorrom... I dont go to Barcelona and say: Im here, I win all! 🙂
But I'm going to go play at the local playground and see what I've got.

[outer saddle]

thats the ultimate goal imo yes. but it might be hard to get there if the gamemode is too polarizing to start out with considering the possible small playerbase in the beginning.

[outer saddle]

I don't know what the exact changes will be. i am explaining on how i see things

[outer saddle]

that's what might happen, and if it happens on a big scale it might lead to leviathan mode failing because of not enough players. that is my biggest concern

[lunar igloo]

it won't fail if it has good rewards. I can guarantee you players will flock to leviathan to try to get a piece of the pie.

[outer saddle]

yes, incentivisation plays a major role in all of this

[lunar igloo]

let's just see how it rolls before we start making changes please...

[sturdy sapphire]

Yes 🙂 Barcelona buy top stats (players) because they want money too from victory 🙂

[sturdy sapphire]

YES ... you can start with small rewards... WEEK? 2 WEEKS leaderboard? For 150 ILV? 500 ILV? It is no money (compare with tragic season 2) and it will provide ADMIN BIG DATA

[outer saddle]

I understand that point well. I'm quite concerned that if Season 3 Leviathan doesn't go well, the damage might be too significant to repair afterward. I would trust the team to bring us the best Leviathan game mode they can deliver, to start off with.

[blissful quartz]

I think having a concern is valid however pulling out the nerf gun and start shooting everything in site sounds like an over reaction to a theoretical problem

[lofty raven]

if we break stats and levels then a lot of players will come running here and will buy up the entire market in droves, go into the open world and fight in leviathan?

[outer saddle]

Again, the problem seems not to be theoretical as the team has confirmed issues while testing internally. How much you want to trust them on this is up to you. Me personally, I have very much trust and respect in the team to make the right decision for illuvium as a whole. otherwise I wouldn't be here

[sturdy sapphire]

Season 3 of leviathan? Leviathan had any seasone before now? I dont know about it...

[lofty raven]

tens of thousands will come here when I find out that the reward for the season is 50-100k, they will buy out all the iluvials, all the fuel, throw all the current whales into the top 100 and I will fight

[lunar igloo]

having problems with balancing the leviathan mode has nothing to do with nerfing stats or levels. They just have to find a way it works.

flat numbers won't work, everything needs to be %

[outer saddle]

Airdrop Season 3, Leviathan

[lunar igloo]

or if there are flat numbers they need to increment a multiplier based on stats/level

[blissful quartz]

Testing being done without the large player base with good Stat illuvials has not been tested though so it theoretical at this point. Can we agree that?

[sturdy sapphire]

But season 1 and 2 absolutelly ignored Leviathan mod... 0 drop was from this mode in season 1 + 2

[outer saddle]

I am convinced the Team is internally testing with good stats illuvials.

[lunar igloo]

and if then they can't figure it out as it is then they need to redesign the abilities to fit both game modes. Just don't punish the loyal small playerbase we have...

[blissful quartz]

With a large player base having good Stat illuvials? How is that possible?

[torn cove]

I think that is the problem warmachine the internal testing all had good stated illuvials so they put the mutipler Higher than necessary and they are just figuring out what the mutipler per stat point should be 10% is the current they are thinking it proably needs to be more like 2 or 3 % per stat point . Thats all it might turn out to need to be 8 or 9 they don't know they just need to try some things out and test it . a perfect stated illuvial is still going to be the best you can get and its still going to be 20% better than a illuvial with a 4 stat

[sturdy sapphire]

And it was probably much cheaper (your internal testing) that will make "open 2-week" "test" tournamet for 500 ILV, where we will see, if any "average players" will defeat "whales" with big wallets.... omg 😦

[torn cove]

Levels proably also are shading that becuase if everoyne has 60% bonus from levels in interanl testing than your opponent having 10% more on stats proably didn't matter as much its just numbers they aren't touching stats just figuring out the math behind the scenes for how those stats are applied. ANY computer game has to have balancing espically in early alpha like levithan is

[sturdy sapphire]

At least that would fill the time until season 3, which is... em, no comment.

[outer saddle]

I would assume they are testing all kind of different stat and level combinations to figure out the whole picture.

[torn cove]

I think that would be a bad assumption from other things we've seen come out of the balancing team lol , no offense but they seem to have to much on their plat with a few of the things they have missed

[blissful quartz]

If a stat squish is all we need to get a large player base then sure it sounds like an ez fix. If it doesn't work though you risk losing your committed player base that has been here holding the line since day one. Is the team saying they are confident that this change will bring a large player base or is it just a shot in the dark?

[sturdy sapphire]

PLEASE... say me... that it isnt same team/people, which test LAST UPDATE OW... with "hide stats fail", "space delay", "bad show summary after map grind" and more bugs and bugs... please... 😭

[sturdy sapphire]

Dark shot 🙂

How big is test team? 20 players? Cannot provide solid big data 😦

[outer saddle]

I have no inside information on who works on what etc. sorry.

[sturdy sapphire]

Is the size of the testing team secret classified information? hmmm

[torn cove]

I think your asking for A guarntee when the team can't give you that. They can tell you the Game AS is , is not FUN , it is NOT balanced, and its barely a game. It is Not ready for any adoption level at all right not not even whales. To get any expression of Skill and Straegy itno levithan mode guantlet they need more balancing on the impact of levels and stats. We should feel grateful to be involved in the early alpha many of you getting to even play on test net before the core community. You should not Expect everything to stay the same as it was at first alpha. Any decisions players make on investments based on EARLY alpha are HIGHLY speculative and i hope they work out but the best move for ALL players including whales is to make a solid transtion path into Levithan so that EVERYONE can get their feet wet.

[blissful quartz]

So overlooking something is most definitely a possibility then... such a drastic change should be off the table until it's actually tested with size. To do so is changing the fundamental importance of stats

[torn cove]

Not everyone competing at a high level but even joining in and buying illuvials Levithan is the only investment model for Illuvium gameplay right now . I was happy to hear such good solid game design principles coming for Kerian in the talk with players and i think they are on the right track.

[sturdy sapphire]

Isnt funny? Dont play it...

Now for me finging top stats and gain XP is funny...

If it isnt funny, I dont play it... I have more money in real life... this is not my job 🙂

[outer saddle]

I think a constructive thought experiment for everyone here could be: How can we increase the player base (i.e., make Leviathan succeed) while fulfilling the promise to whales of dominating the leaderboard?

[lofty raven]

start a few seasons?

[torn cove]

The game pyramid of guantlet SHOULD BE STrategy ( team comp you build )----> Postioning ( SKill) ------ > Stats & Augments , IN that Order Currently the Pyramid is Stats and Level ------------------------------------------------------> Comp -> Augments ----> Skill

[sturdy sapphire]

start a "test leaderboard" with small "price budget" 🙂

Have stats, have feedback, have data...

And will see if big% of players or whales say: Its prety nice! Just need rebalanc Axodon, Scoriox and Squizz, because too strong (only example!!) and it perfect...
Od they say "It is a piece of sht", no playeble, waste of time and money. Turn it off or absolut rework.

**Easy, simple, cheaper. **

[blissful quartz]

So stats won't matter...

Got it 👍

[sturdy sapphire]

NOT AGREE... Price between 6x50 and 6x40 is BIG and BIG... and reall different is between 3,7-4,7% an absolut number of total HP, DMG, etc...

[hollow cypress]

Stats, very little and level almsot non-existent if we go the route kieran was talking yesterday

[hollow cypress]

People want to compare max stats max levels to base instead of a decent level 60 (which is attainable for every illuvials)

[blissful quartz]

With what Kieran said then illuvials are worthless and no need to play overworld or buy fuel

[sturdy sapphire]

Yes... And I WANT TO COMPARE MUHAMAD ALI vs ME in box-sport... And I WANT TO WIN... and I don't want to get in trouble, even though I spend half my time at the PC and he's at the gym 🙂

[outer saddle]

I believe you are significantly misrepresenting what Kieran stated.

[blissful quartz]

Were you there?

[hollow cypress]

he wants to give 20% bonus (15% stats and 5% levels)

[torn cove]

Guys a 20% percent advantage in a game is HUGE , Vegas is built on a 3% House odds and this is 20 i don't think you realize how much a 20% advantage is

[blissful quartz]

Hop inVC for one sec so I can explain

[hollow cypress]

but it won't be 20%

[blissful quartz]

It won't be anywhere near 20%

[outer saddle]

We have access to what Kieran said, so we’re basing our discussion on that information. If there’s anything we’ve misunderstood or missed, please feel free to clarify—accurate information helps us all stay on the same page.

[shut pilot]

vegas was built to launder. huge diff

[torn cove]

I was there and he CLEARLY said he doesn't know what the Number is going to be it could end up at 40% or it could end up at 20% they need to test but what is clear is the 110% that you get now is TOO MUCH.

[lofty raven]

make newbies buy teams for 50-100 dollars and humiliate whales, taking all the rewards

take away iluvials from whales and give them to the poor

sell half of the treasury and give them to the poor, but they will not buy iluvials, but will sell everything and will say that they have nothing to play with

or spend a couple of seasons with decent rewards to show that skill, levels and stats win, and not freeloaders. Show that if you have skill and you develop a deck, then there will always be a result. Show that even with an average deck and clever game you can punish whales and take high places in the rating. With the help of quests in OV, encourage points for pumping iluvs. And players will start pumping characters and collecting iluvs

What option is better I don't know

[tough plover]

Wdym? you still have a big edge but now when you win you don't stomp the opponent and he in return has an enjoyable experience the edge doesn't dissapear it's smaller this mode needs to make sense for someone who invests let's say 1000$ not only people spend their life in the game or buy with crazy amounts of money the whole idea of illuvium is to be a mainstream game and imo this will help on the long run

[sturdy sapphire]

20% is different between 0 shit + 0 lvl... VS +300% lvl 60 Illuviall... really HUGE?

For yeasy money I can catch/buy +240% stats with good lvl (50) ... the different with be in this case? 0,3% in HP and 0,3% in DMG... ? It is advantage?
And cance to 300% criticall hit is 15%? Really 0,3% IS ADVANTAGE???

[torn cove]

He also clearly Said he wants STATS to be more important than levels about 3 to 1

[outer saddle]

Can you see a point where having these couple of seasons with potential low playerbase would only benefit the whales who are trying to extract value in the short term, and make the game-mode ultimately fail because Illuvium cannot justify allocating rewards in the long-term to a tiny playerbase?

[lofty raven]

Yes, you should at least have one season and show that it works for you like this and like that. 1-10 a this rewards, 10-100 so much, 100-1000 so much, 1000-5000 so much and let the players decide for themselves how much effort to spend on all this.

[sturdy sapphire]

I invest much less than 1000 USD... AND I have competetive team

[torn cove]

Look Just going to say this if newbies spend 100 usd and are defeating whales i've got 2 things to say to them lol.... GG ( Get Good ) right warmachine?

[blissful quartz]

First get what he said correct then we can discuss he said balanced to him would essentially be where a mid stat player beats a high stat player because he outplays them. If only need to watch a web3 gaming video and $5 worth of mid stat illuvials to be rank 1 where do you think that leaves the price of anything ie land fuel illuvials?

[sturdy sapphire]

define newbie... player which go inside, play first battle and can defeat me with "little better package"? I SAY NOT...

A cannot go to Barcelona today and defeat they in fotball... It is NORMAL!

[torn cove]

THats not what he said he said a PRO with decent illuvials should be able to beat a whale who isn't good at all if he lays perfect he should have a chance of winning not just be beat buy dollar bills

[blissful quartz]

Lol that leads to other issues ie corner cheese strats and fotm if you let it be based on that fine but it will crush the economy

[blissful quartz]

Semantics.... all I hear is that the better player winds regardless of stats..

[lofty raven]

if newbies play better, buy not everyone in a market but exactly one deck out of 10 iluvs and know how to play, and the whale only hopes for stats, then he will take the whale out feet first

[torn cove]

If you have a 10% advantage so someone who is not as good as you at the game you are not losing ever

[lofty raven]

i think 1 seaso show everything how need toplay on weeknees deck and resu;t whales

[blissful quartz]

Skill>stat=economic disaster

[torn cove]

Yes thats called a GAME , when the player who plays better can win ..... thats kinda what we want when we call it an E-sport right? We want skill and a little bit of luck to decided the game. Not that having a good team won't give you an edge and over long term pull you to the top of the leader board but in an indivual game you want skill / strategy to be the primary drivers

[hollow cypress]

isn't it what the f2p mode is for?

[torn cove]

In reverse it sounds like you want to say ( Well i 'm gate keeping my good stated illuvials ) which i have atleast 6 or 7 perfect stated or essentially perfect stated illuvials myself but that doesn't mean i should get to win every game. Thats not a game. Your comming off as gate keeping and asking for guarntees like somethings being taken from you. Levithan gauntlet isn't done being built you can't tie their hands you just have to let them build the game in the way they think is best for their vission other opitons where given to solve these problems and community didn't like them so stat adjusmets are the path the team is having to take

[blissful quartz]

If you want to crush the economy go for it but then what did you need $78 mil and a land sale for?? Plenty of other triple A games did it with far less

[sturdy sapphire]

yes, with 15% chance to 300% crit dmg... reallly?

put me on a test server, give me 240+ illuvial stats and I can win a decent percentage of games against 300+. Not win all... but against worst player? minimum 50/50 🙂

I am willing to bet real money.

[tough plover]

So why are you scared when it comes to balancing you still win but your opponent has an enjoyable experience your time still valued and his experience

[sturdy sapphire]

F2play is causal and ranked...

Leviathan not...

[blissful quartz]

Go for it. I will say this it will end the way fuel prices did...

[torn cove]

? No way in hell your winning a single game against people with 60% stat increase over you you might win a round or two when someone is saving up income but your not winning a game at 60% disadvantage against an average to bad player. Your crazy .

[hollow cypress]

yeah was just saying that he wants everyone to be able to win and you should't with base illuvials in leviathan. Go play f2p

[sturdy sapphire]

Nobody ties anyone's hands. After all, nobody has even played Leviathan seriously yet! And with this uncertainty and nerfs, they won't even play it...

[hollow cypress]

240+ to 300 is not a 60% lmao, it's like 5% in each category

[sturdy sapphire]

NEFR ALL from +300% to +15% is NOT BALANCE... Balance is, if you you will strengthen a monster that is too weak and weaken some OP

[sturdy sapphire]

240+ can win vs 300 if player is little better **I am willing to bet real money. **
240 vs 300 IS REAL 3,7 - 4,7% Advantage in total HP or DMG ...

Why argue? Come on, take the $500 and set up the testing conditions.

again...

And -10% on dmg stats... with same lvl is less than 5% REAL different:
For EXAMPLE:
1000 BASE
+60 % LVL
+50 stat
= 2100 DMG

1000 BASE
+60 % LVL
+40 stat
= 2000DMG

2000 / 2100 = 4,762% different..

How big different you can make with good tactics? RNG? (Critticall +300% DMG ...), affinity, element advantage? ETC ? Really less than 5% NOT = BEST tactick win over best stat ... ...

Simillar skill have less (4,7%) disadvantage ... and can have luck 🙂

Why need nerf?

[sturdy sapphire]

Im crazy... may be. And I'm believe my opinion for $500. Right now. A binding fight, perhaps on the weekend, when the conditions are met, for example, in a test client.

Believe your true for 500usd too? Or more?

[tough plover]

your numbers are wrong the difference in a 40 stat attack speed and a 50 stat attack speed influences other stats, mode dmg/omega and so on, they probably realized some balances need to be made probably at some point some illuvials become exodia

[blissful quartz]

Just remove stats so there is no barrier for a new player to get rank 1 is all I hear when you say skill beats stats everytime..

[sturdy sapphire]

KEYWORD: "some illuvials become exodia" .. let's just change the "exodia" as balance.

[blissful quartz]

Let me ask you all who actually play competitive will you be happy when anon is rank 1 and you have no way of beating him because he outskills you everytime?

Or will you say we need to handicap him and nerf his ability in game in some way shape or form because he outskills you that is the slippery slope you are going down

[tough plover]

i agree 100% people are gatekeeping changes thinking these changes hurt them because they have speculated things to be fixed, this game will have changes big or small monthly if we want it to be good or balanced

[summer seal]

whity don't like this

[blissful quartz]

Changes are not the issue gutting a core fundamental such as stats is a reason to reconsider why anyone is paying for anything

[sturdy sapphire]

I don't think he'll beat me every time... unless he's also a good, or better player than me.

[blissful quartz]

What's your rank currently?

[sturdy sapphire]

Agree with #1301464160910966834 message ... Change is no problem... but absolute devaluing stats and lvl without a large data set (which really isn't and can't be - no one is currently playing Leviathan "seriously") = that's wrong

[blissful quartz]

Cause keep in mind that is how your reward will be determined

[sturdy sapphire]

Dont play leviathan in this account public and seriously... just sometime testing new combos... in private games. I don't see any reason to show possible tactics to others if I'm only losing now and gaining nothing. When there's a real ranking, I'll play. Now I played OW for better stats and XP 🙂 Thats the best prepare for leviathan now... Well, I guess it was... but it'll probably be for nothing. Just waste of time and money.

[blissful quartz]

Ie what everything else has been thus far

[sturdy sapphire]

I guess I don't understand the question? If question for me... (srry, English isnt my native)

[blissful quartz]

Disenfranchising your most loyal committed and invested player base to pander to n00bs thinking you are making it accessible for n00bs when in reality bots and scripts who will dominate the rankings and reap the lions share of the rewards and extract the most value from your community yet again happens time and time again.... it's a bold strategy cotton let's see if it pays off for em

Keep in mind now bots and scripts won't have the barrier to entry of having to own good Stat illuvials either so they will just shit on even the most rare teams for pennies on the dollar the game is not complex enough to counter this factor and no one but myself has said a word about it

[limpid gust]

I am against a big nerf in stats, but saying bots will crush people is just not right.
Bots sucks ass, and it is easy to ban

[blissful quartz]

Have you played a competitive game where bots and hacks run rampant? Ie cod with aimbot and wall hacks?

[limpid gust]

Its not bots, its glitch. And they could ban them if they really wanted to. They are just not incentives to focus on that

[blissful quartz]

I don't think you have insight to how it works. No offense

You have bots that can run your games with your scripts over and over endlessly climbing ranking

With no incentive to focus on it then it will be a problem much like why we have scans now

[mossy sky]

Concerns over the Leviathan mode are unnecessary. Players will have access to a free-to-play ranked mode with rewards. Those seeking greater rewards can choose to play Overworld, level up and hunt good quality Illuvials which is something good for the game economy.

Making Leviathan close to free-to-play risks destabilizing the game economy and will lead to multi-account exploitation on the leaderboards, this is something that will occur with the free-to-play rank leaderboard.

[lofty raven]

you understand, i understand, team doesn't understand

[mossy sky]

The only thing I can agree with is that a 110% stat difference is too much, but they should be careful not to lower it too drastically.

[fading spire]

“A battle of money” sounds really fun and interesting. Bet the web2 gamers will flock to that

[lofty raven]

The only thing I agree too that 95% DAO is too much and 5% is to low) but its another story and team is okay) but the same time lands are dying ))

[lofty raven]

Do you think that if we lower this indicator, guys with lvl 1 or 20 and a bad stats will have a chance? And we will immediately have crowds of players willing to buy up the entire market and pump ov opts and iluvialav?

[mossy sky]

I also agree with that lol

[blissful quartz]

Problem is they don't use a chisel when making changes they use a sledge hammer just look at fuel production for lands if the same approach is taken a similar result will occur and we all know how that played out

[blissful quartz]

According to them they are claiming this is exactly what will happen....

When in reality if you allow for weak stats illuvials to beat high stats illuvials all you have successfully done is make it so stats do not matter ie all go to zero

[thorny lion]

And if they don't find a way to grow the Leviathan playerbase over time, your illuvials will go to zero as well

[mossy sky]

We currently lack data to support this argument.

[blissful quartz]

This is the truth

[thorny lion]

Lol u guys keep living in fantasy land, im sure that will work out well

[blissful quartz]

You know what will certainly stop player base growth is not fixing the bugs that have been around for months

The game is not ready for player base growth period full stop

[lofty raven]

no) big rewards = a lot of players 100%
reduce stats and levels = reduce economy 100%

team choose 2) easy

[mossy sky]

You're the one making unsupported arguments based on assumptions rather than facts. So, who’s really living in a fantasy world?

[blissful quartz]

Exactly

[lofty raven]

I told this every day my 10 t4)

but it seems to me they have already died and left the world of Ilyuvium)

[thorny lion]

If they had fixed the ability to see stats prefight, we wouldnt even be having this stupid ass conversation because the majority of your assets wouldn't exist.

[mossy sky]

Maybe Illuvium beyond will give some life to lands if they sell the disks for fuel

[lofty raven]

yes iy shpuld be do the 1st day of launching 100%

[lofty raven]

i think the same about halloween smiles ) not eth)

[fading spire]

How would Illuvials even stay relevant if the player base doesn’t grow at all though?

[lofty raven]

team doesn't belive in fuel only in eth)

[lofty raven]

you can't buy buy fuel only eth

[sturdy sapphire]

Which 110% still? You compare LVL 0 + 0 stats VS LVL 60 with 300 stats ... EHM... REALLLY???
Floor shit illkuvials have +/- +150 stats ...
Minimum lvl of S2 is 20 LVL
Minimum of S3 is LVL 40 ...

Where is YOUR 110% ???? ???

[gray cosmos]

Good point, in reality the gap will never be this wide.
The spread will be quite close.

[sturdy sapphire]

Web2 gamers? Cannot they can't even transfer funds to their wallet according to the 35 step offical "screenshots" tutorial...
They can't even accept a BUG OFFER on illuvidex... etc, etc...

THERE IS BIGGER PROBLEMS than stats... REALLY MUCH BIGGER and MUCH OF PROBLEMS 🙂

[sturdy sapphire]

We dont have data?? +1500% FUEL bonus isnt data that ZERO LAND is piece of shxxxxx ?

[fading spire]

I think web2 gamers like to download a game and play. Not jump through hoops.

I could be mistaken though

[mossy sky]

The game is improving significantly, it just needs to address some bugs and introduce more randomness to the matches. The ranger will contribute to that. Personally, I enjoy the game and believe it has a lot of potential, so I believe the player base can grow for both free to play and leviathan.

[lofty raven]

I enjoy too for this day)

[sturdy sapphire]

existed... and 150% trash would be cheaper... and 300% TOP would be 3x more expensive...
Because the "losses" from catching trash would have to be covered from those super tops...

[sturdy sapphire]

I say it all the time... different between "good 240 - 3x floor price" and 300 (200x floor price" is between 3,7 - 7% (depend on Illuvial)... Crit Strike LUCK have bigger impact... or elements/afinity bonus

[blissful quartz]

Send it all to zero is all I am hearing from people claiming that making it all free to play is the way

[sturdy sapphire]

how to play? You cannot BUY SHARD DIRECT FROM client ... YOU CANNOT BUY FUEL from client... YOU NEED ETH to buy any... in NON WORKING WEB (Iluvidex)...
web2 player dont have a chance to fill they ETH account with official 35 steps manual...

**They close the game and go to ANOTHER DOOR ... **

[thorny lion]

No, this is your guys' problem. You are pushing more people to F2P by keeping the gap too big. God forbid they ever introduce a proper progression system you guys are going to have heart attacks.

[mossy sky]

I don’t understand why there's so much complaining bro, we already have a rank free-to-play mode for them and web2 gamers.

[sturdy sapphire]

I really not enjoy this access by admins 😦

[thorny lion]

Maybe cuz Leviathan is the only mode that is keeping the economy from totally collapsing at this point because it's the only thing requiring ownership.

[lofty raven]

or maybe was:)

[blissful quartz]

This is the whole point they have stage 0 runs and those good Stat illuvials are actually valuable right now they have free to play game modes with rewards and this guy tail less is saying we don't understand.... if this is the last jenga pc holding the economy they want to remove it... disaster is what is coming from all of this just look at lands and fuel prices...

[sturdy sapphire]

No stats = no OW runs = NO FUEL inquiry = NO LAND value...

What remains? Casual Arena :))))

[thorny lion]

Im telling u the same thing @brittle storm told u last night. U just don't wanna listen.

[blissful quartz]

And the point is you are both dead wrong...

Just look at fuel prices and and land prices if you don't believe me

[fading spire]

https://tenor.com/view/numbers-dont-lie-disaster-spell-gif-25561954

[sturdy sapphire]

next example... this "BIG MATEMATIC"... really convinces web2 players that it's a super functional game...
Where is 22 essences? Really 15 ores?

[fading spire]

Web2 gamers bad. I think I understand

[mossy sky]

Imagine how much lower prices would drop if they introduced features like stat increases or rerolling.

[sturdy sapphire]

Probably 30-40% players dont know, how to accept offer.

BECAUSE The "accept offer button" for the illuvial on Iluvidex doesn't work. You have to go to the overview of all offers, where you can't see anything about the given illuvial except for the ID...
BUG on the website for 1 hour to fix... BUG known since at least July!

[fading spire]

You’d think the team would hire another person to work on bugs.

[sturdy sapphire]

bug on "stupid html website... " You dont need any crypto / web3 / ETH expert... Just need one "average" HTML coder

[blissful quartz]

That will be next week's change... it's a slippery slope when you start giving way to free to play players in the name of equality

Equal outcome not equal opportunity is what they are proposing

[elder gyro]

Currently it takes an enormous amount of time to reach LV60.

If that's the case, why not drastically reduce the EXP required to reach LV60, making it easier for even light users to reach LV60?

In order to achieve good results with Leviathan, it's unavoidable to spend a little time farming in OW.

We need to carefully decide how much "a little time" is, and it's not clear how we should respond to users who have leveled up under the current specifications.

[blissful quartz]

At this point it's clear that stats will be insignificant and that levels will be even less so. As far as the handling of anyone who has wasted time and/or resources you will be brushed off as an extractoor or a speculator this samething happened with land owners and mark my words will happen with rare illuvials

[brittle storm]

I've read about 4 of your comments so far @blissful quartz am I right in saying you are making it out like we're going to change leviathan so tier 0 units with no level and terrible stats can beat tier 0 units with high level and perfect stats?

[blissful quartz]

Kieran when you described to me that what balanced looks like in your opinion last night is someone with mid stats beating someone with perfect stats is possible is balanced. Is that not what you said?

[brittle storm]

What are the skill levels of the players? Or the same skill?

[blissful quartz]

One guys has played countless of hours and the other just watched the most recent web 3 gaming vid including the latest flavor or the fotm broken comp/ strat ie the corner strat you all complain of currently cause there will others in the future rest assured of that it happens in every competitive game

[brittle storm]

The example I gave you is if someone buys $500 worth of Illuvials and is the best in the world they should have a chance to beat someone who has a $5000 deck and is terrible at the game.

That is all I said to you. What you are saying I said is not even close to it. And I get what you're doing, exaggerating things to make a point, but you're skewing reality which is pretty frustrating to argue against.

[blissful quartz]

Are you available for VC currently?

Much to type but would take 30 secs to say

[brittle storm]

I'm not going into voice chat for two hours to explain this to you again. I reiterated myself many, many times yesterday. I would understand if you weren't there but you know exactly what I said, you're just finding it hard to accept that MAYBE this testing we're doing could actually be a good thing. Remember, it's testing, and even before trying this new balance you are saying this is preposterous.

I even gave you a marbles analogy, what more could you want!

[blissful quartz]

How will you test the exact scenario you are describing ie best in the world versus n00b given the change to stats in the equation if we don't even know who is the best in the world. What I am saying is what you describe can not be tested the way you are describing balance... and that is somehow preposterous??

[outer saddle]

Can you elaborate: why do you think the values (e.g. 110%) that have been decided on months maybe years ago make a better game-mode than new variables and balancing that the team is actively working on and testing right now?

[lofty raven]

as practice shows, the development team are not good players and therefore they launch a season where bad and good players test everything and on this basis statistics are formed for balancing. to be realistic)

[outer saddle]

I think you might be missinformed. They have some challenger level players in there and ex professional players.

[lofty raven]

than good I didn't know it

[blissful quartz]

we currently have a system where by any new player can purchase mid stat illuvials for next to nothing and be able to boost their stats higher than the current +50% max bonus to stats that the hexagon offers. It can currently boost as high as +60% bonus to all stats not just relevant ones for future proofing against changes to stat utility and is based off of levels so that it incentivizes going into overworld so the game economy does not crumble ie land prices fuel prices. For less than $2(at current fuel prices) you can do 2 stage 3 runs in less than an hour and get roughly 6-8 illuvials +40% bonus to all stats so your mid stat illuvials become more powerful than a perfect stat illuvial that is not leveled. If the argument is currently new players wont spend pennies on good stat illuvials and $2 to level them so we need to close the gap then what makes you think they would buy more expensive illuvials when the assets become more valuable due your proposed change?? If you have a better suggestion please state it and explain why it is better. This is a thought experiment to get the most players we can playing leviathan

[inner pond]

I like the idea of having to level new illuvials from new waves as the years go on. User acocunt level would make each illuvial feel more generic. Even now, I like the thought of having to target my favourite illuvials to level based on which i prefer at the time. I'd rather them make the benefits/reward of leveling less generic and give more choice, but not replace the individual leveling.

It's also nice that Leviathan players have to put some effort into leveling based on their strategy and not purely throw money at the game. Helps add a balance to money vs time for average stat players vs whales that don't want to bother leveling

[blissful quartz]

all of this is to illustrate you have options even as high as tier 5 which cost more or less what rares cost in something similar ie magic the gathering. We are not talking about $2k per good stat illuvial which i would see as a problem for new players trying to enter leviathan

[blissful quartz]

purchased this last night $29 less than half of the cost good rare i showed from magic the gathering so please explain how the barrier to entry for new players in a game mode that is meant to be a tour de force of the highest skilled players using the best assets in the game that they can acquire is so high that absolutely no one will play it...

[blissful quartz]

i think what you are after when you say a reduction in the barrier to entry for new players is more hand holding if you will a base point to start from for which there is already a proven solution to that. they have them in other tcg's pre constructed base decks to which they can add to or swap out as they progress as a player with a larger collection and achieve higher levels of skill. it would be a list of a curated starter team of illuvials along with pricing and so on

[blissful quartz]

we have another route players can get good stat illuvials which is also how every single other good stat illuvial has come into existence and its currently cheaper than ever to play stage 3 less than $1 per stage 3 run and $1 per per respledent shard

[outer saddle]

Thank you very much for doing all this research and proving the data you found out! Will take this into consideration moving forward. Appreciate you!

[winter temple]

in this case best thing would likely be to do this: #1300803600150298645 message

at least for 1 season so people play with current lvl system and than we will know what to do,

again, the only reason this thread was made was because a change to levels was mentioned that will definitely be coming.

im not for touching stats like stat rerolls which clearly majority are against, even you can keep stats for levels, but i am not against balancing the power % of the stat/level to something that make very much sense.

like for example if they made each stat up 5% instead of 10%
so it can be max stat 25% increase on all pure stats instead of 50% if it makes sense

[outer saddle]

I believe it might be the best for us to trust the team to figure out the optimal way to introduce Leviathan especially in the first iteration, rather than holding onto outdated numbers that may have been placeholders rather than the ultimate solution. We should remember that there are full-time, experienced professionals on the development team with decades of expertise. Ultimately, both the team and the community share the same goal: to create the best game possible and give Illuvium the greatest chance for long-term success. If the community doesn't like what they introduce we can iterate, but iterate before we see the first final solution from the team seems counterproductive.

That being said, I'm confident that the team has listened and heard these conversations about the matter and will very much take this into consideration.

[lofty raven]

From what you say, I can say the opposite, why not do everything as is and test it for a couple of seasons, and then change exactly what is needed? 🙂

[lofty raven]

outdated numbers cost everyone a lot of money and time

[outer saddle]

I think this seems like the more risky path going forward.

If the game-mode is not well designed from the get go it could very lead into a downward spiral of low playerbase, leading to Illuvium not being able to justify the rewards and tournaments we would like to see being directed towards leviathan because nobody plays it.

[lofty raven]

Let's call things as they are. No one plays it because we haven't had a single season and we haven't even seen any awards, leaderboards, iiluvidex, etc I've been preparing for it for 2 months like many others. Let's see how the team distributes the awards, maybe even those who prepared won't want to play it either.

[blissful quartz]

is the goal to have everyone play leviathan?

[outer saddle]

It’s hard to draw an exact line, but I’d say everyone who has invested in Leviathan teams—small, medium,large wallets—should ideally be playing and be matched against similar wallets to maintain a healthy economy.

[blissful quartz]

so elo and/or a tiered ranking system ie bronze silver gold platinum etc?

[outer saddle]

What would you suggest? Something similar like we've seen in Pokemon with different Leagues?

[winter temple]

Division based ranking like Gods Unchained

[blissful quartz]

In order to avoid the new players from being destroyed right off the bat there needs to be placement matches and tiered ranks to progress through. Potentially even new players lobbies have seen this done before in other games

It won't matter if you squish stats but a new players first game is against whity anon and you will it?

[gray cosmos]

Pokemon also have elo, ranks and leaderboards.
The leagues are there to try to cater to different demographics of people. Casuals, whales etc.
Master League is known as the whale cup as it requires a lot more grind and money to catch/train the necessary Pokemon, whereas Great League is the every mans cup. The most accessible due to the low level requirement and easy accessibility of the Pokeomon required (No Mythical or Legendaries permitted).

[blissful quartz]

Similarly in magic the gathering they have a game mode called pauper you can only use commons and uncommons no rares or mythics and you can only have 1 copy of each in your deck

[gray cosmos]

Exactly I think something along those lines is the correct path.
Having just 1 "league/mode" and trying to balance that to please everyone, Tall order to say the least.

[stray ivy]

My personal opinion is that this isn't the right way to go.

Each game has to deal with power level from TRAITS and LEVELS differently. Right now we're focus on Arena (obviously) and the power gained from these things is a bit much.

It's all about finding the right balance.

If levels are nothing, then we don't incentivise people to play the game. Remember, playing Arena levels up your illuvials, and we want to have the ability to have events where you get 3x exp in Arena for 48hrs (as an example).

If levels are too strong, it dilutes the power of traits.

And if traits are nothing, it gives no incentive to have better Illuvials. If traits are too powerful then it can be a blocker for new players to enter because it will feel 'too difficult'.

So as I said, I think this is more an issue of us getting the balance wrong, rather than having the wrong system.

[winter temple]

Aaron did you read the part where i mentioned User Account Levels?

For me personally, as long as you dont touch the actual stats (the stats that we get after capturing the illuvials or fusing them), feel free to do whatever to balance.

[stray ivy]

Yep.

[stray ivy]

When you say the 'actual stats' are you talking about the traits themselves, or the stat growth those traits generate?

[winter temple]

The hexagon stats when you capture the illuvials

[stray ivy]

Sorry I'll try to be more clear.

Those 'hexagon stats' are called Traits. They go up to 5.

But then, we take those Traits and we convert them into stats using a percentage modifier.

Are you saying you don't want to change the Traits of the Illuvials already caught, don't want to add more values to them (like go up to 7), or are you saying don't change the percentage modifier?

[winter temple]

so in this case, it would be Traits

[stray ivy]

Ah ok. We won't be changing that. 🙂

FYi, different games will have different needs and different stats. So how the traits manifest in other games will be different. There's an underlying raw number you get when you catch an illuvial. That single (ridiculously large) number, is converted into the stats for each game differently. I'm pretty proud of it as it naturally works in any game we create and you can tell before hand with pretty good certainty how good your illuvial is just from that one number. (It's how we generate your trait purity indicator)

So if the TPI is high, you know your illuvial will be good in all our games.

It's not 100% accurate (and it never could be), but it's literally as close as we can get.

[lofty raven]

1. Better do 3x exp in OW for 48hrs. Why Arena? We are now spending a lot of fuel and time in OW and increased economy and Arena - doesn't need to buy fuel. Add some boost for OW for fuel and I think the correct way. Gym or boost OW. this is my opinion. I was thinking of making something like a 48 hour boost scroll for that solon or hyperion
2. I'm not sure that after the balance of stats and levels, players who haven't done it before and like some of the consuls, consider it boring - will now say wow, you need to catch good stats and pump up the level to 60. As I understand it, your goal is to reduce the influence of levels 60 and above.
   I have a question, so after the balance, players should start doing this, although before if they did this, they would get a good increase in the stats of the iluvial

[stray ivy]

We absolutely are doing exp events in OW. Just saying we will do them in both at different times.

[lofty raven]

got you, thx

I thought we would show look - stats and levels are power, here are boosts for lvl in arena and OW. Go everybody. But if the difference between 50 and 60 is barely noticeable, no one will do this, because now it takes 1 week and 50-70 runs = 42$

[blissful quartz]

Aaron i would really like to hear your thoughts on this
"we currently have a system where by any new player can purchase mid stat illuvials for next to nothing and be able to boost their stats higher than the current +50% max bonus to stats that the hexagon traits offer. It can currently boost as high as +60% bonus to all stats not just relevant ones for future proofing against changes to stat utility and is based off of levels so that it incentivizes going into overworld so the game economy does not crumble ie land prices fuel prices. For less than $2(at current fuel prices) you can do 2 stage 3 runs in less than an hour and get roughly 6-8 illuvials +40% bonus to all stats so your mid stat illuvials become more powerful than a perfect stat illuvial that is not leveled."

[blissful quartz]

Also what is the goal of the stat nerf? Is it to close the gap between free to play illuvials and paid ones in leviathan?

[sturdy sapphire]

"nice" new record... Is this really unrelated to the uncertainty surrounding the nerf, Leviathan, and Season 3? Does the economy really need nerf stats the most?
GJ... Next week we will have what price? + 3000% free? 😦

[tough plover]

I see the same 3-4 people refusing to understand that it's a balance when it comes to stats they are "nerfing" the gap between stats so it makes it more enjoyable for everybody not just 50 people, fuel bonus it's not "free" it's a marketing trick people are selling it at a lower price giving you the impression that it's free maybe try to see what's the bigger picture when it comes to this changes

[sturdy sapphire]

Hmmm, and you know how stats works? That stats on website is BAD? That different between LOW AND TOP STATS IS BIGGER, because does not apply BASIC STATS +* (LVL + stats bonus), BUT BASIC STATS * LVL * stats bonus? Why you bigger different and nerf it? May we It would be enough to use the data that is presented as official on the official illuvidex website...

And who say balance is "must be"? Kieran? Which say "Leviathan was play by small amount of people"? = Have small sample of data? No DAO Voting? Are different data used for argumentation and in the game than on the official website?

[blissful quartz]

When you say more enjoyable for everybody you mean free to play players and bots?? Who is everybody??

[tough plover]

I have seen you so many times exaggerate your argument not sure what you are talking about it's clear as day that free to play or bots will not have a chance in leviathan even with a bigger balance then what it's talked about, do you actually believe that a free to play gamer will beat you in leviathan or a bot? stats are compounding...

This balance gives the team the oportunity to present leviathan not a p2w whale mode but a mode where you can spend let's say 1000$ and have a chance to be in top 1000 if you spend time learning the game and leveling up your illuvials... atleast that's how i see it

[sturdy sapphire]

" stats are compounding..." ... But official website "say another song" 😦

We need WORKING WEB ... may be no nerfs... This data is on website minimum from July...

[sturdy sapphire]

No, for 500 USD you can buy 200%+ team, which can be on TOP100 with nor problem....
For cca 100 USD you can buy "floor team" ... where you can be somewhere in the middle...

[blissful quartz]

This is your assumption. You are assuming that a nerf to stats won't allow bots to compete with good Stat illuvials. Just as assuming nerfing fuel production to lands wouldn't have a reduction in screen time for zero players...when you open the flood gates to bot and have zero barrier to entry they will reap the rewards from the community just as they did in season 1 or 2 this is not theoretical fear such as your view point but actual fact...

[tough plover]

We need working webiste and a marketplace where you can chosse stats and ow to be fun... we need many things but i think we need to make people interested in leviathan aswell

[blissful quartz]

So everything you just described has nothing to do with nerfing stats... do you see the actual problems with mass adoption.... and nerf to stats won't solve those problems...

[sturdy sapphire]

Yes... we need making changes in Leviathan... BUT NOT fix BUG of LIE DATA on official website... no management system of my Illuvial team, non working "offer accept", no filters... etc..
This will definitely attract mass players
REALLY BEST IDEA 😦

[snow crow]

You are wasting your time brother, these 4-5 people just go in circles without even trying to understad the issue and start attacking you when you don't agree. Total waste of time and energy

[sturdy sapphire]

yes... and today admin "between speech" say the website stats is useless shit, because game using "multiplication coefficient" to make the BIGGER difference between the states even greater. ... NICE

**AND WHERE IS DAO VOTING? WHY MAKING CHANGES WITHOUT IT? **

[hollow trail]

it's not like the DAO is voting for every decision made during the developement.
That's not feasible

[blissful quartz]

What is really funny is how everyone that has argued with me over this literally comes only with emotional fears and 0 facts. The reality is there are great stat illuvials for pennies right now and that is fact.... so please explain to me how if "everybody" won't buy them now why would they buy them in the future?

[snow crow]

The answer is rather simple and obvious and is also the reason they want to tweak the numbers (without touching the stats). I'm sure a smart fella such as yourself will figure it out. Cheers

[blissful quartz]

Lol so you cant just say it.... gotcha great way to go about not proving your point.... I have proven mine. Can you do the same?

[snow crow]

I don't need to prove anything buddy, I'm not part of illuvium. And even if I were, other team members already explained everything. Cheers

[blissful quartz]

Talking in circles typical....

Anyone else care to bring actual facts?

Step right up @tough plover

[lofty raven]

I asked it and added this question on AMA

[blissful quartz]

Which question specifically?

About how cheap are great stat illuvials currently?

[tough plover]

Ngl you are making me laugh trying to win an argument showing some bad stats stage 1 illuvials, do you actually believe let's say i make a team with that type of illuvials i will beat let's say a top 50 team in leviathan? your "facts" are not really facts...

[lofty raven]

Question 2. If you still decide to make changes, how should these changes force those who have not leveled up to this level and did not look for good or medium stats, to start doing it?

[blissful quartz]

Just what do you think is required to play gauntlet? Have you even played at a high level? This is not ascendant where you need the best stats team of stage 3's

[blissful quartz]

You have tier 0's in end game builds by the winner of the tournament.... what's really hilarious is watching people attempt to gas light others with 0 proof...

[tough plover]

I see now why you are so confused, you don't know where the bar is for what is actually considered good stats making you think everyone can beat you, but i will 100% tell you what you showed in your example and that you consider to be good stats are not

[blissful quartz]

Oh you mean these?

[sturdy sapphire]

maximum -10% in main stats is good stats? WOW ...

What is GOOD STATS? 300%? Do you know that no can exist 1 full team in server with full 300? Because NO EACH ON WHOLE SERVER have almost one of 300% stats... 😉

[tough plover]

First you show me bad stats and present them as good stats, then you show pefect stats... what's going on... you do realize that there is an inbetween no?

[blissful quartz]

Lol you complain when I show you facts and then you complain when I show your more facts. What U like fiction?

[blissful quartz]

So according to you those are perfect stats?

[blissful quartz]

What are these then super soldiers?

[sturdy sapphire]

yes, all main 40-50 is very good, playable stats ... Almost for free (0,5 USD) whichg can be used ip TOP of ranking ... if you make good lvl for him.

[blissful quartz]

What's really funny about you pointing this out is that you prove my point there are already ways to compete without spending the money to buy actual perfect stat illuvials...

[blissful quartz]

Every illuvial i showed him in the first image had 4 or better on every stat except movespeed and he claims those are not good....

[sturdy sapphire]

Yes, I know... But good player Costinel need better... 🙂
Whole server need +300 for free for play 🙂 Haven't you understood yet? 🤣 😭

[blissful quartz]

It's as if he has no clue what he is talking about..

[blissful quartz]

I 100% get it brother seems like others are basing their decision making on fears and theories instead of playing the game and understanding what is actually going on

[tough plover]

Good luck being in top 50 with the stats showed in your first example it's becoming more and more clear what's going on in this chat

[blissful quartz]

Have you competed in any tournaments?

Have you beaten anyone recognized as a top tier player?

[tough plover]

You were right i should've listened

[snow crow]

It's ok, now you know

[blissful quartz]

Lol post more emotional based replies instead of giving facts...

Do you understand how you climb rank in the current set up?

[lofty raven]

that funny see comments from ppl who don't play and who sell everything that is caught )))

[blissful quartz]

It's hilarious this guy... trying to tell me what rank i can reach and he can not give me an instance of him competing at a high level or understanding you can climb rating without being 1st every game

[sturdy sapphire]

He is pro player 🙂 They cannot say you theire secret tactics and achievemenst 🙂

[tough plover]

Whatever i presented my points you do you guys.. good luck

[sturdy sapphire]

tike = skill = achievement? 🙂

[blissful quartz]

Who would you say are the top 5 players in gauntlet?

[sturdy sapphire]

And if I don't turn off my computer at night, I'll be better for another 12 hours 🙂

[blissful quartz]

Most people making these arguments don't even realize you climb rank by coming in 4th place you dont have to be 1st every game and you don't have to beat everyone to surpass them in a leaderboard

[tough plover]

Watchout leviathan players kukka 1/5 will come to take your spot in top 50 and he only pays 50c!..."FACTS"

[blissful quartz]

More emotional responses... 😢

But on a serious note where is the 1/5 kukka?

Would be a perfect experiment to showcase this is to have you play 5/5 super soldiers and whity play these illvuials you say are not good... and see if he does just beat the brakes off of you....

[hollow trail]

I'll do you one better, what is an 1/5 kukka?

[blissful quartz]

Lol

[lofty raven]

buddy) where is my blaze)

)) failed fuse(

[blissful quartz]

Ouch but surely this won't stifle mass adoption cause it's all due to the stats not being nerfed....

There is however a moderately priced solution to this

[lofty raven]

amazing

[blissful quartz]

Max hp and omega too

[hollow trail]

https://tenor.com/view/cringe-eeee-gif-24636179

[hollow trail]

found it 😛

[blissful quartz]

Nice screenshot angle is great