Leviathan Gauntlet

[sacred marsh]

I’d like to share this clip from my recent stream, where I discuss the current situation with the Leviathan mode in Illuvium.

I aim to explore both sides of this issue to find a balanced approach that can make this game mode successful. I think this topic is of utmost importance, because whichever direction this goes, it’ll have a huge impact on Illuvium overall.

This isn’t a final stance—that's why I want to open the discussion and dig deeper into this with everyone here.

There’s some gameplay talk in the clip, so feel free to skip forward if needed.

https://youtu.be/YVO47YcRFHA

Too Long, Didn’t Watch (TL;DW):

Essentially, as long as the player base is large enough, polarizing stats won’t be an issue because players will get matched with others who have similar wallets or Illuvials. But if the player base is small, we risk a downward cycle: fewer players in a polarizing game mode means medium wallets get stomped, leading to even fewer players, more stomping, and ultimately, failure.

However, if we make the game less polarizing, we could alienate the high-spending players (the whales) who expect their investment to give a major advantage. We need to find a middle ground—something polarizing yet achievable. For example, a silver player with a modest investment might be able to beat a gold player with a higher investment, but a silver player should never be able to beat a platinum player regardless of skill difference.

Ultimately, it’ll all come down to the first season. If we don’t attract enough players initially, the whole structure collapses. Rewards need to be enticing enough to draw players in, allowing them to compete against similar wallet sizes, earn rewards, and feel motivated to improve their teams and climb the ranks.

I believe it’s riskier to keep the stats too extreme, as this would impact both the player base and with that the success of the mode, especially early on. It might be better for whales to feel slightly less advantaged initially than for the mode to fail because those without substantial investments get overwhelmed. Starting with more balanced stats could give mid-tier players a fair shot. Then, as the player base grows, we could gradually increase the stats to allow Leviathan to become that ultimate playground for whales. This way, we keep our original vision intact but build a solid foundation first.

[terse drum]

here we go... Do we really wanna cater to players who barely spent a dime in the ecosystem and didn't grind the OW? Stats NEED to be impactful, otherwise they're meaningless (and that's only half of the equation there's also the level), if players think their opponents have too OP illuvials they have a good solution for that. GO PLAY OW!

and if they don't want to play OW nor buy the illuvials then they'll need to rent them from other players.

[grizzled girder]

They do have a good solution for that, but if 99.9% of them refuse, then you have no one to play against at all?

Yes you are right, rentals and scholarships in full integration into the ecosystem resolve a lot of this in my opinion. Maybe thats where the focus should be.

[terse drum]

agreed, we need a renting market ASAP. Not only for the illuvials but the illuvitars would benefit as well.

[grizzled girder]

Well Polemos Renting market is live. But it needs to be integrated directly into the game in some way. I am currently working on something that should actually make all this easier again, fingers crossed

Honestly @terse drum after filtering through the marketplace for the past hour or so, its easy for me to forget how little there actually is regarding anything resembling good stats. Now this can be seen as both good and bad, but I am going to buy a semi-decent team and think on the entire topic more. Just need to find someone I can pay to level them up tho.

I will admit, when a perfect stat Doka destroys a mid stat Rhamphyre I am gonna make another video laughing about the absurdity of that, but thats it, content is content 😛

[sacred marsh]

I agree that we shouldn't cater towards players who barely spent a dime in the ecosystem in Leviathan.

My point is that Medium wallets (rough estimate of $100-$1000 spent) should be encouraged to play, to populate the game-mode and make leviathan successfull. Once the Playerbase is big enough it should definitely be the promised extreme advantage for the biggest wallets($10.000+).

Starting with that is very risky imo, but can work if the starting playerbase is big enough.

[cerulean burrow]

Reducing the stats would ease onboarding into leviathan and make it feel less pay2win but would undermine the core principals of leviathan mode (+ upset the our small loyal playerbase of real players who invest into the ecosystem)

I believe no matter how we would reduce lvl leviathan could never be the main competitive mode because the thousands of $ investment and 10s, 100s of hours grind to level up is an extreme entry barrier. That being said i love the leviathan idea and believe it should always have its place as the hardcore gamemode with big exciting rewards to incentive investment into the ecosystem loop

I see that the team wants to try to have completely free + rewards for onboarding and the leviathan as the main competitive scene but i dont think this will work out

I believe the optimal solution here is to go back to the original plan of:

1. Free mode = onboarding / no rewards

2. Ownership mode = stadarized stats/lvl & main competitive scene

3. leviathan = lvl/stats matter & big exciting tournaments

[potent viper]

It comes down to having a good reward structure imo. If we reward enough players, medium wallets can make it into the weekly reward spots and they can choose to recycle their winnings into improving their decks if they want to fight for the higher spots.

Yes, initially the players who spent the most already will get the top spots, but then again, they are the ones who already spent the most, so nothing wrong with that.

So give rewards to 100+ people (maybe even a lot more, dunno what the prize pool will be) and clamp down hard on multiaccounting from the beginning, with clear rules.

[orchid lance]

Before considering any change I think we need to see how Leviathan plays out. The difference in stats becomes less important when illuvials get are level 60. Excluding mouvement speed, it's not too hard to imagine players with illuvials between 220% and 250% compete for the top and each ranks will be filled with people where skills+illuvials will be equivalent.

People at lower ranks will then be able to spend more to compete at higher ranks

[sacred marsh]

I see that the team wants to try to have completely free + rewards for onboarding and the leviathan as the main competitive scene but i dont think this will work out

Could you please share where you have seen this? I think it's the first time I hear about the Team saying Leviathan is supposed to be the main competitive game-mode.

[viscid cargo]

It takes hundreds of hours to level up multiple illuvials, but if just want to find one with good stats, it doesn't take that much time. Of course, it costs money.

As a compromise, how about maintaining the "status" to a certain extent, while providing "leveling up" with skin unlocks and other perks that are not related to winning or losing?

Of course, I'm sure I'll be angry because I've spent a lot of time leveling up.lol🤣

[cerulean burrow]

Its what we have right now, the ownership only mode has been scraped for gauntlet

We have only free and leviathan. We cant reward free too much cause it only extracts from the ecosystem

We dont have any numbers on the split but last info is that it looks like its going to be 25% free & 75% leviathan

[tall ermine]

not only you. i spend 1 month without season and reason play OW. but every day i wake up and go grind exp again and again, coz i know - you have much lvl.60 i have do the same things, so i can be competitive with you. it's motivation for me now, will be motivation for other. but yes, at other hand easyer say - go nerf stats and lvl.
where all other people? they not prepare they'r team, they not play on OW or on market.
not need be whale to get good stats>just go OW catch some illuvials>fuse them, get exp.
even you doing all of this, just take middle-stats illuvials, spend time to get lvl - you will win some games. yes - you not be top-1-10, but if we have higher prize for Leviathan mode>we have more motivation work/prepare hard.

[sacred marsh]

We dont have any numbers on the split but last info is that it looks like its going to be 25% free & 75% leviathan

Not sure if that is again an assumption or the confirmed split. Not trying to to nitpick here but I don't think there has been a official statement on the reward split yet. 🤔

[cerulean burrow]

Like i said we dont have numbers and nothing is finalized, just sharing the latest info of how it might look

I dont remember exactly but i believe this came from kieran, might have been on voice chats

[tall ermine]

why all this things happend in voice chat with 5-10 person 🙂 so noone know exactly what's going on

[viscid cargo]

I've been leveling up every day with the same feelings as you, but I think the question is whether there are actually that many people who are willing to level up to that extent...

[cerulean burrow]

Its not decided yet so no we dont know 😄

[tall ermine]

i see today info, that it's around 700 active player, who do somesing - fuse/mint etc. but i'm sure only 10-20 doing preparation with lvl.
most of ppl just play Gauntlet, after LB released.

[tall ermine]

but it's feeling like more and more people around start talk about leviathan mode for whales>lets go play Ranked gauntlet as main etc.

[cerulean burrow]

What do you think about this leveling grind aspect whity?

Paying for a good team is something but having to grind 100s of hours to level up and compete feels

Especially now since we still dont have gauntlet xp we are all forced to play a game we dont even want to play

[tall ermine]

to get lvl.50 you have to spend 2 days. so in 1 week you can get 25+ illuvials with lvl.50
for 60 - it's take more time, but it's only 10% higher stats.

[viscid cargo]

I want OW's grounds to be more interesting and have something to gain from it. Right now, it's a battle against sleepiness.😫

[cerulean burrow]

Theres no way they can make free the main competitive scene, it has to atleast be ownership mode

Otherwise we dont have demand, so assets drops, everyone is rekt and leaves, ow people stop playing cause everything is worth cents, fuel drops, project dead gg

[tall ermine]

ownership not help much, while we don't have burn mechanics and hundred of illuvials on market with shard price.
i hope also that they not make ranked main, but as i say - more and more people, who have "weight" start talk again and again about to strong leviathan stats. that it's not competitive etc. - probably they know something and prepare us?

[potent viper]

I think we can have the free version as the main competitive mode, and still have a higher payout for leviathan. The free version will also have cosmetic elements so it will generate some income and it can serve as an easy on-ramp for new players.

Just like you can win an olympic championship in "amateur" box but you have to become a professional if you wanna fight for big bucks.

[grizzled girder]

For me personally, the time barrier is far more painful than the money barrier. I think scholarships would solve this

[mellow ibex]

Open to a reduction in stats personally so it's max 25% rather than 50% boosts. But would be very against removal of stats all together - that would be a slap in the face to everyone who has been grinding and paying $$$ to get good stat illuvials.

[pine otter]

I think there should be 3 modes for gauntlet

1: competitive ranked free-to-play (large player base, small rewards per player. Let’s say around 20% of reward pool allocated to this. You don’t need to own the illuvials u use). Main goal is to convert free users to the other modes.

2: competitive ranked with ownership / leviathan with normalized stats (medium player base, medium rewards per player. Let’s say around 50% of reward pool allocated to this. you need to own the illuvials u use for them to let’s say have max level and stat, otherwise it has minimum level and stat. The actual level and stat of the illuvial itself don’t matter. Ensures demand/use case and value for all illuvials. Main goal to incentivize ownership - which is what differentiates a web3 game from let’s say TFT

3: competitive leviathan (large rewards per player, small player base. Let’s say around 30% of reward pool allocated to this. stats and levels matter, this will be a whale game where only high stat high level illuvials will be used. Incentivize grind and a lot of OW runs - fuel demand for getting the best stat illuvials there are.

[pallid junco]

Leviathan should be the Formula 1 of Arena, where skill and equipment count and are rewarded with real money. I would combine #1 and #2 into one mode:

I would use tickets as entry fee for those who don’t own Illuvials. Tickets can be earned from gameplay or bought with fuel. This helps fight bots and fills the leaderboard reward pool. Reward would be fuel or other in-game assets and not ILV, to keep rewards in the Illuvium ecosystem. Owners get a few tickets for free.

All Illuvial levels and stats are standardized when a match starts.

When you own an Illuvial you can upgrade from standard stats/levels to its own stats/levels. To level the playing field and make it skills based, your opponent gets credits in equivalent amount to perform their own Illuvial upgrades, even if they don’t own Illuvials. They can also use the credits for augments etc.

A ownership player gets a reward points boost related to the power of their Illuvials used during gameplay. Basically the power of your owned Illuvials will be converted into a boost of the rewards from the leaderboard. The actual position on the leaderboard itself is not affected by ownership, it is purely skill based.

F2P winners only get their ticket back and the ticket from the opponent, but no fuel reward. They can then sell the tickets or use them for the next battle.

This encourages owning Illuvials with good stats and levels, while still creating a level playing field for those without Illuvials or low stats/level Illuvials.

We can therefore match players ranging from owning zero Illuvials to those with all perfect stats/level Illuvials and those who don't own Illuvials still enjoy nice temporary upgrades during their gameplay.

This also gives Illuvials with not so perfect power much needed utility. It also encourages levelling up your Illuvials and adding more and more to your Illuvial set. It basically fills the huge gap between owning nothing and a full set of perfect Illuvials and prepares players for Leviathan. Leviathan would still be the North Star, because it is the only mode with ILV rewards.

[left vessel]

Create a rewards pool for Gauntlet 100k and 10k for levi - everybody will be playing on Gauntlet, create a rewards pool for Gunylet Levi 100k and Gauntlet 10k - everybody will play in levi, will try to find best stats and pump leveling. Its marketing and calculation.

And if you think that few players will come to play, you are deeply mistaken. Launch 3 seasons and make a decent reward and you will see how the number of players will grow tenfold. Ilyuvimum has not held a single tournament or season yet, and we have already decided what is good and what is bad, who will play and how much

Those who do not catch and buy and do not raise the level of iluvials will be at the bottom
That is why everyone who is rooting for the fact that the left is too unbalanced - please throw your decks here and we will see how many characters of levels 50 and 60 you have, and all questions will disappear. And when you see that others start to take rewards, then others will have to pump and run in the ow

[pallid junco]

Whoever wants to make money, and this is what you are describing here, has already left Illuvium long ago and trades meme coins on Solana.

Why would anyone invest thousands in illiquid Illuvials in order to play for rewards in Leviathan, which also requires good skills and luck to maybe get a percentage of their investment back ? And the same goes for renting, because why would anyone invest in Illuvials and make a few bucks renting them out ?

This Axie model of earning money with game play, scholars etc. is ok to create an initial hype and for high stakes personalities, but should be a niche mode.

Why did Illuvium spend years creating awesome Illuvial NFTs, Overworld etc. and then just copy the Axie model a few years after Axie had success with it ?

We could have copied their model years ago, but Illuvium has been developed for the mainstream gamer. This again does not mean that we should not have Leviathan. But it can never be the main mode.

[left vessel]

tell me a few things
how much money do y spend in game for iluvs? how much iluvs do you have 60 lvl? how much runs in OW do you do in day?

or send your wallet i will check

[cerulean burrow]

I actually think the current boost from stats/lvl is too high, it makes it harder to balance

The problem is that it was already designed this way so reducing them would ruin the loyal small playerbase who actually invest in the game

[cerulean burrow]

Yea sure, when i say they cant make free the main competitive scene i refer to more rewards for free than leviathan

Even if its 50/50 i think we lose the incentive to go invest in leviathan

[left vessel]

we will recived a lot of bots and multiacking for ranked - coz it free

[pallid junco]

I bought quite a few Illuvials, low espial number, holos, dark holos, a few perfect stats. I am more a collector and IL:Z player.

[left vessel]

i asked about lvl too

[cerulean burrow]

Thats another concern for sure

As far as i know bots cant play auto battler so thats a win for arena but multi account abusers will be a huge problem

Now that competitive scene will launch i hope the team will make it a priority to track those. I try to push for them to be very clear in every announcement/blogs regarding rewards that they will track this and outright ban all the accounts of anyone who abuse the rewards with multiple accounts

[pallid junco]

I will level them up in Il:Z once that feature is available. I probably won't play Arena that much. I just like to have them.

[left vessel]

yes but the team should not spend a lot of time on this, trying to fight with multiaks is hard and bots, instead you need to spend the team's resources on development and where you definitely do not wake up multiaking

[left vessel]

thats problem a lot of ppl who told us - stats and level are huge disbalace

[cerulean burrow]

Sure but they have to monitor this at least to a certain extent. Its part of fostering a healthy competitive scene which should be the #1 prority

[left vessel]

yeap 100%

[pallid junco]

We should not forget about whales like Alexa, who spent many thousands on Illuvials just for the collection aspect alone. Leviathan players are not the only ones spending.

[left vessel]

i think he will rent illuvs

[cerulean burrow]

Yea i know but it ultimately falls under the same category to me because people like you and alexa who collects do it because of the expected demand (coming from arena)

[pallid junco]

Not necessarily just demand from Arena. Just the success of Illuvium in general.

[cerulean burrow]

Which i would say is completely dependent on arena success, at least at this point as its the only game we have with the demand side of the ecosystem

Down the line we will have more game(s) and ow may become a game on its own too

[pallid junco]

I am the one on the left.

[left vessel]

so I right understand you promise to pump level your iluvs?)

[pallid junco]

I am pretty sure that all those who expect a replay of Axie’s success and want to be the first this time around will be disappointed. Illuvium would have to rebrand to get the same hype any new project with a new token could potentially create. Our success can only come from mainstream adoption and the chances are much higher than many think.

[pallid junco]

Yes, on my lands. I bought Illuvials to stake them in the training buildings.

[sacred marsh]

i can't wait to be able to pay someone to level my illuvials 😄

[sacred marsh]

I agree, I think removing stats is a no-go and goes against the whole idea of it.

[grizzled girder]

Tell me about it

[left vessel]

I know who can) if interesting

[sacred marsh]

I think balancing leviathan to some degree in order to make it a better game with a bigger playerbase is very much in favor of players who invested the game. But it will alianate the investors who want to have the best chances of being able to extract the highest amount of money in the short term. We have to be very careful to cater towards our true long-term oriented loyal playerbase who is fine to take a small hit in the short term in order to improve the game and increase the success of illuvium in the long term I think.

[left vessel]

we can have 5-10k players in levi but 100k who will support these 5-10k for fusing, and rare stats

[thick crow]

The team should take notes from season 1 and 2, how many people do you see active in discord in this kind of threads that are important? we are always the same players because we are the loyal small player base that we are constantly grinding/playing/giving feedback.. with this said.. do we want in the country of allice 100k new players coming to extract all airdrops with no investing ? or maybe $50-$100? and then repeat the next month airdrops or whatever and then leave?
because if they win $800 they will extract everything or maybe 80% to move to the next hyped game because they took it effortless...

what do we need is player that get engaged with their hours and hours, i read multiples i don't have time... yes is the time because you are in multiples project if you want to win big focus on illuvium, go to the OW level up your team and practice on gauntlet.

Every game is pay to win (i dont believe in pay to fast shits or w/e if its money envolved is pay to win) and if its not the game just not monetize and at the end of the day this is not a charity game as always i say.. is a business and we all know that...

so stick with this system, make a difference between leviathan an casual in terms of money to push players to INVEST what they WIN on the casual tournaments.

If people don't have time to play then it is a casual player... and you have your leaderboard and tournaments for casual players (no stats/level envolved) why would you play Leviathan Mode? if you cant? lol

Why i would play a leaderboard if im not prepared? maybe i should start playing? and maybe stop complaining that i dont have to invest or the barrier is to high?

Dont want to invest? no have time?
go play casual just grind gauntlet leaderboards with effort earn some money and then INVEST if you want to go to leviathan, next month repeat and some day u will have a good team for Leviathan.

[fallen trellis]

You can’t force people to invest money back into the game. If they find the game engaging enough they will reinvest.

If not, they will play solely for profit. Much like a job.

Edit: not saying I’m in favor of removing a mode

[thick crow]

Can you please read above the main thread?

[thick crow]

So just to clarify you are telling me that people will join for Fun to the game?

[fallen trellis]

If people find the game fun then they still reinvest and keep playing.

If they don’t find the game fun they will only play for airdrops.

[thick crow]

the thing is that people can find the game "fun" with a poor investment and get rewarded.
so why they would invest again if they are winning more than they invest? no point to re-invest

[fallen trellis]

Idk, why do people buy cosmetics that really don’t have any value? Because they enjoy the game

[thick crow]

and tbh i don't know why are we talking about "fun" what matters if its "competitive" or not, if you want to play fun games there are plenty

[fallen trellis]

No wonder why the game is a flop with that attitude

“Who cares about fun”. Gamers do. I know you can’t see out of your web3 bubble, but gamers play games that are fun.

OR you can essentially bribe them to play with airdrops

[thick crow]

First of all you are saying the game is a "flop" so i'm not sure if i want to keep this discussion with you.. but here we go i did not want you to feel touched with what i said before.. people first will come for rewards because they like to compete more than play if you want to jump directly and think outside the bubble as you said before first you need to be the number one in your bubble to go out and get recognized why would you want to jump 3 steps if you can't do a first good jump? people that could initially comes are from TFT players but why they will come for fun? ofc not they will come and join if there are good circuits/major/monthly tournaments and with better prizes than RIOT.

And since you said that you are a Gamer, can i please know your nick in-game if it's not that much?

[fallen trellis]

I am a gamer. That doesn’t mean I play this game anymore. I tried it out and thought bits of it were interesting so I wanted to keep track of the project.

The “Pokemon for adults” thing caught my attention initially, but I honestly didn’t really find that in the game. Maybe I’m the minority though

I think with the right combat and multiplayer this game could grow its fanbase though.

[solid zenith]

You should not be able to play in a tournament with a price pool if u don't own the illuivials!! otherwise all the illuvials with shit stats become worthless. F2P should only be for fun!! we destroy our whole ecosystem if ownership doesn't matter anymore! And what they have planned for G. Leviathan is a mistake in my opinion. way too expensive to get a perfect stat team!

[tall ermine]

is it too expensive go in play OW? if it's to much buy from market - just go and catch some illuvials, then fuse. i got around 5-7perfect fuses for last month, and around 20 fuses with good stats(not 300%) but 5 main stats at 40-50%.

[noble plume]

Trying to get everyone to compete in leviathan is the equivalent of getting everyone to play at challenger rank in league of legends it's not a realistic goal. There are tiered ranks for a reason. Having a good Stat team of illuvials should mean you can compete with others who have good Stat illuvials if you diminish that then there is no incentive to pursue having a team of good Stat illuvials

[supple bridge]

I agree
Having tiers is the answer. You can grind your way up. If you believe that a stat is holding you back from advancing, then you have plenty of time to improve your team

[sacred marsh]

Very true. I think it's of utmost importance that we get a big enough playerbase in Gauntlet to achieve this. Having everybody be matched with players that are as close as possible to their own rank without having to wait for too long is going to be key for leviathans success.

[left vessel]

very easy - every day you should play min 1 game or you will have peneltie

i saw this in different web 3 - 1-3 days - fall dawn in ranked

[solid zenith]

And the illuvials with bad stats? They become worthless if we have only these two gamemodes f2p and leviathan!!

[sacred marsh]

yeah we have seen the need for a decline in rating after being inactive X amount of time with the top 1000 leaderboard back in the day. i hope this gets implemented for the season 3 elo system. i've reached out to the team to remind them, will keep you posted.

[noble plume]

When you say worthless do you mean worth less than the pennies they are currently worth? Ownership still plays a roll in ascendant ranked i don't see why they would be valued at $0 if they are required to be owned in ascendant ranked

When I go into a card shop to buy cards for a tcg there often times boxes and boxes of commons and uncommons for $0.50 each etc I equate bad stat illuvials to these so I see them as still having a value just less than what rares are worth much in like in other games tcg etc....

[solid zenith]

There will only be the f2p mode and the levi. mode as far as i know! And this doesn't make sense to me!!

[noble plume]

Are you referring to gauntlet only or ascendant? I currently played ascendant ranked and it requires you to own illuvials

Even if they are not the best stats you can own a low stat illuvial and it's stats are normalized in the game mode so they have no weight in the illuvials power

[solid zenith]

Yes gauntlet! They don't focuse on ascendant anymore!