The changes to the rare stat mechanics

[thick acorn]

that sounds very unrealistic. I think all top players will have perfect stats.

[weak geode]

so then serious question what makes you think that is somehow different than how it would be now?

[thick acorn]

Please elaborate which two scenarios you are comparing.

[weak geode]

the scenario whereby if we start season 3 right now the top players would be the ones who have perfect stats, and in an ideal scenario where you describe "I think all top players will have perfect stats."

[thick acorn]

As people have pointed out above, nobody has truly perfect stats yet, so the first scenario isn't realistic, and the second scenario was aimed at the end goal of Leviathan. Nothing that isn't perfect and level 60 will have a chance to compete in the big league. This brings me back to the original point: recommending to people they should pick up medium-stat Illuvials, which will be completely useless in the competitive scene later on, is not fair to them unless you also advocate for less polarizing balancing.

[weak geode]

when you agree that nobody has perfect stats but then also claim that leviathan is imba right now because only people with perfect stat illuvials will ever win it does not add up...even you yourself are willing to go as far as "I think all top players will have perfect stats."

[thick acorn]

Obviously nobody has perfect stats yet. This is not up for discussion, you can check the perfect illuvials that have been minted. The equivalent of perfect stats right now in the early stages is however far people have come already.
All top players only having perfect stats+levels is also a given, even a 1% disadvantage will be the doom for any pro player.

[weak geode]

so then where do the arguments derive from? the arguments stating that leviathan is imba at the moment due to stats if no one has perfect stats how can that be?

[thick acorn]

Again, the equivalent of perfect stats right now, in the early stages, is wherever the top wallets currently stand. This doesn’t change the points mentioned above and that, ultimately, anything below perfect will be useless for serious competitive players. This conversation feels like it’s going in circles and arguing for the sake of arguing, so I’ll leave it at that and check back tomorrow. Have a good night!

[weak geode]

have you ever thought that there are ways to balance things by using a chisel instead of a hammer? if your concern is whether or not my 50% compared to your 40% is too great of a difference scaling tiers of traits with scaling power levels ie the difference from 0/5 to 5/5 would still be much greater of a deficit than say the difference between 4/5 to 5/5 being 5% instead of 10%

[uneven ibex]

Never can have top players all "300 perfect stats"...

Matematics again... spawn change of 1:46656 for 300

If game will have 100000 players... and "100 TOP players" still have no chance to have 100x205 "300 Illuvials"...

In all of this case will be 240+ (or 270+) VERY VERY competetive

Now, after 4 months and cca 2000 active players (admins saying some halucinations about 23000 players!!!!) complete game have:
300 STATS ON WHOLE SERVER
20x T0
171x T1
8x T2
81x T3
18x T4
7x T5
(include all stages)
Me have 2 of them (Kukkulus and rypterus) and I think I sold another 2 ...

But I preparing and exping TEAM include 240+ (in high tier) and 270+ (tier 1,2,3)...
(still not have all of them... One of reason: No management / filtering system to check, which ones missing me!)

Yes, all the times we hearing only... It will be, It will be updated...

**BUT IN REAL WORLD? **
Statistick was boosted by admins in last patch
LANDs is piece of toilet paper now...
FUEL price still dropping... Last week was all of then under 5% of value ("+2000% for free"), this week probably will be at +2200%...
Futh dropped fuel all dropping too... (ingots, shards, illuvials...)
37% of direct economick is realized by one player. + cca 25 on secandary market ((for example me buy some top stats to prepare "top Stage 2 Illuvials to sell for his fusions....)
...

[weak geode]

oh yes the reply guy who never post any facts just emotionally charged responses glad to see you are back at it

[weak geode]

this u?

[thick acorn]

I think you are missing my point so I’m using the analogy of silver and gold here to point out an inconsistency in your approach. We can agree that gold (perfect stats) is the only real option in the long run for serious investors. Silver (mediocre stats) is never going to match up and is understood as a budget option.

The issue I see is that you have been promoting silver as “good enough” while also advocating to keep the gap between silver and gold as wide as possible. On one hand, you’re presenting silver as a reasonable choice for budget investors, but on the other, you’re pushing to maximize the gap, ensuring that budget investors get the least possible value. This feels like trying to play both sides.

[weak geode]

you do realize not everyone will be in the top 10 correct?

i have a single perfect stat illuvial fox spirit has told us half of his team is not perfect stat so it's not this polarized playing field that people think it is. that is just not the reality of it can someone show up tomorrow with a better team of illuvials sure you could do it for instance thats what makes it so people have an equal opportunity

also i would say Whity using only good stat illuvials ie 4/5 on everything except for move speed would beat the brakes off of any mid player that has 5/5 on everything super soldier illuvials... there is your skill level being displayed in the game so that it is competitive

now if your goal is to have someone watch a 10 min web3gaming video and learn the recent flavor of the month comp and/or strategy and go and compete in the top 10 with all free to play illuvials then you have got the game messed up... this is why i am always asking people what they're goals are and to be as specific as possible. if you cant state your goal and why it is better than what we currently have backed up with facts not emotions... then what the hell are we even talking about?

[weak geode]

also if you want to talk about gold and silver imagine i told you that you can go into your back yard and mine gold for free right now....would you do it? ie you can go into stage 0 for free right now and farm good/perfect stat illuvials that you yourself claim cost a fortune....

so then please explain how we are not offering f2p or n00bs a way into this eco system cause it's just not accurately depicting the reality of the situation

also i have seen you point the finger at people you say are only here to extract as much value in the shortest amount of time from the community...this u?

[low apex]

First ever Rhamphyre minted. That's a true collector piece.

[weak geode]

going for it to list it for sale immediately for 6-7 figures doesnt sound like he was just trying to get it as a collector peice

[thick acorn]

because after countless of hours played I haven't found a single perfect stat illuvial. It's very unrealistic and not really fair to beginners to sell them the idea of being able to farm their own perfect stat illuvials, without telling them how unlikely it is to find them right now. You might spend hundrets of hours not finding any.

[thick acorn]

I'm not really planing to sell my baby. I'm happy to keep it, thats why the high price. When I found it I listed it for Millions, more for fun than anything. Not sure what that has to do with anything we are talking about here. Seems like you lashing out trying to change the subject. But it's ok. I've said my piece.

[late oar]

just example of my fuses. i'm not buy it from market, i'm not buy pieces for perfect fuse, i'm just play-collect then random help me.
it's not mean every fuse will be perfect, but for 1 week/month - if you play OW you can get decent team.
whanna save time - just go on market and spend money instead of time

[thick acorn]

Thank you for sharing! To have a clearer view of the details provided we would need clarification on "random people help me" and how much you played. 1 Week / Month is very vague. Congratz on your finds. This is a very small sample size (1) and we have seen people do the math, I can't find it right now but it was something along the lines of 1 in 47.000 is perfect? Might be paraphrasing here, someone feel free to pull up the probability of finding perfect stats.

[uneven ibex]

But we know the probability very EXACT...
300 - 1 : 46767
4x50 - 1 : 100
etc, etc... VERY BASIC AND SIMPLE MATEMATICS

Much of games doesnt have there transparency and purity...

[weak geode]

have you ever played a game with a grind involved?

[uneven ibex]

This probability is for "found on OW"... probability of fusion you can count for each fusions with concrete stats... for example you need 34x 4x50 Illuviats to will have 1x 6x50 and "trash" will be the the rest :)))

[weak geode]

change the subject? you brought this up when talking about it so not sure what you are referring to when you yourself bring it up in conversation about this very topic... maybe try rereading some of your posts

[late oar]

if you know how to fuse - you can buy 20-40 illuvials from market for 0.3$-1$ and craft perfect one. as i say - it's save time

[late oar]

in wow every season to become best player - you have grind for 1-2 month to get highest gear.
before come into Illuvium i play this game, and doing highest keys (5ppl content) in the world, got multiple time achivement 0.1% best player in the world.
but you not right come and got it. you need knowledge, then much of loot/best ever gear, then you need play well, then you need good skiled teammate, and work together for 8-12 hours everyday, and only then you probably become best.
and after 3-6 month - new season come, and you should repeat everything

[weak geode]

i have played wow since 2004 multi glad arena player arena master achieve which is no longer even possible to get in the game so trust me i know all about the grind and seasons etc that is my point if a game is good people will grind it. in this case the grind is free in other games it costs money to grind so when i hear people say no one will grind this what i hear is that their opinion of this game is that it is not good enough to have new people come grind it

[granite solstice]

in axie full levels for 1 axie need 5-6 month))

[late oar]

it's depend how you grind it. at release stage-3 was 15$, but if you know how play OW/play market - you can get and sell things with 15$.
when price was 10-5-1$ it's around same. so - dothen mater how much you pay for every run, if you play with head, and thinking/learn everytime what you should or should not to do. ofc if marked alive, not like it's now
if you just go in OW>then shot in air and go back, or never sell something on marked - then yes, 6$ run it's much. and even 0.6$ much - if you play 10 runs day.
you have to learn how play, then you not just pay, you get some money back or even get extra money over if you plan and distribute what you have do do

[weak geode]

this is the point that there are a number of routes to take yet people are claiming new players dont have a way to get into this ecosystem other than to spend tens of thousands of $$$

[uneven ibex]

Yes, that's what people say who themselves don't have a single 300 Illuviallo yet.... And yet they claim that super stats can be found in every 45-minute run.... I find the posts and contradictions of those people sad... mainly because part of the team obviously listens to them... or maybe they started taking some "stronger model"?

[mighty orbit]

That would be funny if it was

[weak geode]

not a single illuvium stream

[hidden turtle]

not a single one.....

[hidden turtle]

should prolly know twitch bumps out older stream vods, cool story tho bro

[weak geode]

so then just not playing recently... got it

[hidden turtle]

swing and miss again, i just dont stream as much anymore cuz of my chronic migraines getting too bad to sit in front of my screen for too long

[uneven ibex]

twitch / horseplayentertainment

[weak geode]

so you dont play much anymore cause you get migraines understood at least now we understand each other

[hidden turtle]

i play just as much lol, i dont STREAM as much because i cant do the 3 to 4 hours i like to do when streaming

When i play i do a run or 2 then take a break and come back and play. It doesn't change the fact that the Overworld is such a trash mode, Kieran jokes about turning it into a pack opening.

[weak geode]

sounds like an opinion i play OW time and time again hunting for illuvials understanding its a grind and a pack opening mechanism i like the maps etc for the same reason i grinded the same maps over and over in any diablo game with the understanding that i was hunting for better stat items

[uneven ibex]

Hes not joking...

[hidden turtle]

Just because we are willing to grind doesn't mean most people will be willing to do it. Gauntlet is almost there but Overworld needs to be just as fun for this system to work well.

[weak geode]

OW should be fun its missing what so many other games have ie quests npc other players etc however grinding is just part of most games where stats are involved even in the most successful ones ie wow diablo so saying people are not willing grind just is not accurate

[hidden turtle]

Just those couple of things and we are gonna be like WoW and Diablo.....🤣 🤣

[tired moss]

You're comparing apples and oranges here. At least in WoW, you can focus on PvP grinding. In ILV, players are forced to grind through a mindless and repetitive PvE mode just to access PvP. The developers should allow us at least to level up our Illuvials directly in Ranked Arena mode (which is PvP) so we can skip the PvE grind entirely."

[ruby stump]

that is coming.
basically wherever you use your illuvial it should gain exp.

[hidden turtle]

Those games also have incremental progression. The carrot on the stick that constantly makes you feel stronger when you get new gear, minus endgame where there are random mods on gear in Diablo's case. Illuvium's current progression system is some weird gacha system without the proper duplicate progression from most gacha games that makes you feel good about getting trash characters (until you cap them but you hold for future updates where you can again progress those characters).

[weak geode]

there was a time when the best pvp gear was actually pve gear and you had to raid to get it not saying this is way it should be but what i am saying is that there have been many iterations not just the current one you speak of.

[weak geode]

combined with everything else we have got so far and are planning for but not just those things by themselves

[weak geode]

this sounds like a totally different discussion than no one will play leviathan because a 0/5 cant beat a 5/5... sounds to me more like you are saying the game is just not good and thats why no one will play it

[hidden turtle]

I'm saying part of the reason Overworld isn't a good mode is because the progression system attached to it isn't good. There's also Aaron's hard no to cutscenes (other than the opening cs) to enhance the lore and story. The game is lacking the connection factor to the illuvials still. This hopefully changes in the future tho. The lynx and squizz video gives me a little hope haha.

I trust @woven creek and the team in their balancing input on Leviathan based off how well they balanced patch A, minus some augments. If they say traits need to be brought down then so be it. I see Leviathan as our only Endgame mode for the forseeable future tho. I think it should be available to anyone willing to put either the time or the money into it but mastered by a limited amount of the player base. The problem is just the large quantity of assets needed to contend minus playing the same comp over and over but is still an option.

[uneven ibex]

same team as non repairing market bugs and illuvidex... ? And without illuvidex non work any...

[hidden turtle]

pretty sure that's a different part of the team

[uneven ibex]

probably they need help and reinforcement 🙂

[weak geode]

so the goal in your opinion should be to have everyone playing leviathan?

[hidden turtle]

Not everyone, because you will always have some people who are just collectors or don't like autochess. Then some people will only play F2P Gauntlet. But the goal should be to get in as many people as possible yes.

[weak geode]

would you say that leviathan will be presented as a pay for power game mode to these new players?

[hidden turtle]

Most people in web3 gaming understand that the games are p2w because of the assets being tradeable. It's one of the reasons most web2 gamers I know don't wanna be bothered because they hate p2w games.

But when someone describes Leviathan it should be where someone goes to play with the illuvials they caught and progressed right? Right now you could say caught and leveled but then you have to describe to them that the illuvials also have these random traits that can't be enhanced that make the game harder for players without good traits.

[weak geode]

so when you present something such as leviathan to people as a game mode whereby they need to pay for good stats in order to compete at the highest level whats an easier sell if the illuvials have noticeably more power or negligible differences in power levels?

[weak geode]

when you say "most web2 gamers don't wanna be bothered because they hate p2w games" are you considering games such as clash of clans or disregarding them?

[hidden turtle]

It has to be in balance. I can't sell the game to a good playing shrimp if I tell him the game is only for whales. I can't sell the game to a bad playing whale if I tell em they are going to pay alot of money but aren't going to be able to compete.

[weak geode]

also im not sure if you know this or not but several of the best games in the industry have entire industries built around them in order to sell carries item unlocks wow gold etc so what you describe as "most web2 gamers don't wanna be bothered because they hate p2w games" does not seem to be the reality at all

[hidden turtle]

There's always a way to make a game economy tradeable based off real world currency. I used to sell high level equipment in ffxi for cash. But it's the reason most games now have a way to purchase in game currencies because it's easier to make the money off those transactions and not have to police it as much. But if someone doesn't want to buy the currency there should always be a way to progress. Time is what most games sell and what most gamers are willing to give up.

[weak geode]

if this is your metric given your balance would a 0/5 illuvial be able to compete and beat a 5/5 ie would a f2p player be able to be in top 10?

[weak geode]

so currently given that you can farm t0 and get good stat illuvials or dark holo that some claim cost a fortune doesnt this mechanism do exactly this "there should always be a way to progress. Time is what most games sell and what most gamers are willing to give up." ??

[hidden turtle]

No one is arguing that a 0/5 illuvial should be able to beat a 5/5. It's more the 3/5 illuvial player should be able to beat the 5/5 illuvial if they play worse.

[late oar]

i come with 0 money. 1st week i farm rocks in stage-0 and sell ingots, now i have good team, and some of cash i withdraft from game

[weak geode]

so if all someone has to do is get their hands on 3/5 illuvials for pennies and watch the latest web3gaming video in 10 min they should be able to compete in top 10?

[late oar]

with 0 investment

[hidden turtle]

I am the same @late oar . I have my fuel from crates I purchased before release but because it took so long to fix my fuel crate claim bug I just grinded out S0 and I currently have $30 in my account and cashed out $100 to pay for the crates I bought 🙂

[hidden turtle]

If the 5/5 illuvial player sucks ass at positioning, yes.

[late oar]

you whanna improve. you see your target - dothen mater web-2 or web-3 gamer you are, just come and work with your desires. i'm not whale, i'm just common worker.
so when someone say - game for whales? xD

[weak geode]

then what is the value proposition for 5/5 illuvials?

[hidden turtle]

Don't suck and you shouldn't get beat by players at your level.

[weak geode]

so then how does that not apply to the current state of leviathan??

i'd be willing to bet that whity or fox spirit using only 4/5 illuvials beat any mid player using all 5/5 illuvials

so what i am saying is the balance you are talking about and describing in your own words already exists

[hidden turtle]

Because that's what @mighty bridge has told you. It currently doesn't work like that in their testing environment. We don't have the data so we are just guessing at this point and it will be pretty easy to tell if it's true or not once they show their balanced environment.

You are acting like it can't be changed back if they make the change. Too much emotion involved man.

[weak geode]

currently the 10% difference in stats can be negated by the augment lottery system we have in the game

[weak geode]

honestly i have backed up everything i have said with facts where as you have been the one here posting emotionally charged responses ie

[hidden turtle]

U seem like u need a hug. Stressing out too much

[weak geode]

again emotionally charged responses yet you claim i have too much emotion involved...

[weak geode]

"Don't suck and you shouldn't get beat by players at your level." the game is currently this change my mind...

[mighty orbit]

When did you come in though? The demand is very low now while the supply is high

[late oar]

1st season. i know what happend at market now. no airdrop season = dead marked. only stats worth something now. somitemes DH.
but even stats will be dead if changes touch much %.
better start new season with more % of drop for levi, and everything come back to life

[granite solstice]

it seems to me more and more that we will go completely to web2, all tokens will go to web2, they want what the hell web3 should feed web2, that's why they don't tell us anything, they keep everything a secret, so that later, as always, they can say that the lands should just bring you some income, you bought the lands yourself at auction and so on, so far I only see this approach - iluvium is trying to go completely to web2, leave crumbs for web3, but at the same time use web3 resources. These are the conclusions I have come to recently in the project+

I really want to be wrong