POLL: Temporarily remove Casual Mode and Ascendant to focus playerbase on Gauntlet.

[plush hawk]

Hello Rangers! We’re considering a potential change and want your feedback through an idea thread to ensure the best direction for the game's future.

Context:

We are considering internally to temporarily remove Casual Mode from Gauntlet and the Ascendant Mode to focus the playerbase on the competitive Gauntlet Mode.

Why is this being proposed?

• Faster matchmaking: With fewer modes splitting the playerbase, everyone will be funneled into Gauntlet, ensuring shorter wait times for matches and a better experience for everyone.

• Better feedback: By concentrating on Gauntlet, the competitive core of the game, we can gather more focused player feedback, allowing us to fine-tune the game mode for long-term success in a competitive landscape.

• Refining the competitive scene: We believe that Gauntlet's competitive mode has immense potential in the competitive scene, and we want to prioritize its development before dedicating resources to other aspects of Arena.

We want to know what you think!

Would you be okay with temporarily disabling Casual Mode and Ascendant to concentrate the playerbase on Gauntlet?

[delicate shuttle]

i think ascendant has a small but dedicated fanbase, we shouldnt take away their favourite gamemode in order to force them into playing something they wouldn't play otherwise. I think we will have enough players even with the other gamemodes live, and we don't need those 10-20 players to be pushed into gauntlet. I think ascendant has great potential and is pretty good already considering we created a whole new game genre here combining tcg with autobattler.

[pastel barn]

You would kill the small amount of people that play a little bit I think. It's already small, taking away the f2p will not be great especially if we want to focus on more adoption in the short term

[whole cypress]

I think leaving Ascendant would be fine, but Gauntlet imo - should just have one queue for now and until player base size improves.

[plush hawk]

We are not removing the F2P. We are removing casual and Ascendant, but Gauntlet F2P ranked mode still exists.

[plush hawk]

So just remove casual, and keep Ascendant open. Correct?

[pastel barn]

Oh then removing casual gauntlet is fine, but removing ascendant is sketchy. I don't play atm so idk how the queue times are. If it's really bad maybe it's necessary

[bleak folio]

i want it like s1 and s2.
Attract as many new players as possible. Currently, there are too few players, making the market illiquid. With fewer players, finding matches is more difficult and also reduces the number of players. The core is still to have many players. A good game but no one knows about it and no one plays it becomes a dead game. Let's look at the game Concord as an example.

[late rapids]

I really appreciate the team polling the community on such topic

I can agree with the removal of ascendant until it gets reworked (if it does) even if its been said that we would have rewards for both modes. Im someone who prepared my team according to this and actually like the ascendant game mode principal but its not in a good state to be part of the competitive scene at this point imo.

If we want 2 game modes (ascendant/gauntlet) with the same units we will also have to come up with a solution for balance. Right now as the game got balanced for gauntlet the ascendant balance would be totally off. I dont think its realistic to expect a solution and good balance for both games on time for season 3

As for gauntlet casual i also think it would be a good idea to remove it as it doesnt serve any purpose. We've seen before how no one would ever queue in the casual modes

That being said i think theres a big positive to be able to custom queue in casual with friends &/or to practice

If possible i would like to see the casual queue disabled while keeping the option to custom match in this mode

[late rapids]

Season 1 & 2 attracted bots and multi accounts abusers while incentivizing players to play OW (create supply)

Now that season 3 is focused on the competitive scene this will incentivize player to play arena (demand side) and therefore fire up the whole illuvium ecosystem

[whole cypress]

Yeah, but I don't see the point in having Leviathan open right now... I don't even have my team ready yet and I'm relatively active have been working on my team for months. I'd love to hear thoughts on that.

[late rapids]

Leviathan gauntlet will be our only game mode that address the demand side of illuvium ecosystem

Its an absolute must in my opinion. All illuvials up to this point have been bought with the expectation of demand (gauntlet leviathan) coming soon

This would feel like a rug to all the players who spent money and time levelling up so far

[bleak folio]

bot or multiplayer has been solved very well by the group. I see everyone is very good. Looking at the data, s1 vs s2 has a lot more players and is easier to reach new people. s3 does the same as s1 and s2, it will start sooner to catch up with altcoin ss. Letting s3 stop to spend time on modes not only slows down progress but old players have found a new game. Why not make s3 happen with the success of s1 and s2, spend more time doing well in s4.

[whole cypress]

How many Leviathan games have been played since the patch dropped total?
I have certainly tried, unsuccessfully, to get in a game. That is an unpleasant experience.

[late rapids]

I have no idea but would guess 0. I would expect it to be 0 because the competitive scene didnt start yet

Right now people preparing for S3 are incentivized to spam OW to level up or play normal gauntlet just to play around with the new change and figure out what comps work

[whole cypress]

0 games... so every single person since the patch drops has sat in queue for a while and then gave up and left. And you are advocating to keep it as is. I'd just like to understand why people feel this way, since I feel opposite and would want to remove that negative experience. Until it can sustain.

[late rapids]

I personally dont expect anyone to play without rewards as we are incentivized to prepare for when the rewards come in a couple days

Take me for example, im someone that invested thousands of $ and countless hours to prepare my leviathan team as im aiming to be a pro but i played 0 leviathan games. Playing leviathan games right now would only hurt me as i still have to prepare my team for when it starts

[lament sky]

Remove casual gauntlet, keep ascendant

(Gauntlet sucks imo, I only play ascendant)

[whole cypress]

I'm sorry, I'm not catching the "why" keep it open for now.

If it were up to me... I'd communicate a timeline... dreaming now: Illuvium is launching a Leviathan series of events that starts with our $10k USD giveaway on November 21st at x time! On November 1st the Leviathan game will open with a leaderboard and weekly rewards to the tune of 50,000 FUEL for the top 100 players! We suggest you start now in OW collecting strong Illuvials and levelling them up to be ready for Nov 1... etc etc etc. Clear communication can easily turn this into a positive imo.

[pastel barn]

Nov 1?

[whole cypress]

it's a hypothetical

[late rapids]

My why is because thats whats been promised/expected from everyone

Delaying once again the demand side of illuvium will hurt it so much

I completely agree with you on the communication. As we all know its one of illuviums biggest problem

They dont want to say a date but we do have an expectation of a date which is early november. We didnt have any clear communication on it but i do agree with you that it would have been in illuviums best interest to specifically explain the details of the upcoming airdrop season and push the narrative of "you will need high stats, high level illuvials for the gauntlet part of the airdrop"

[whole cypress]

I AM NOT ADVOCATING DELAYING.

[late rapids]

The way i understand it is that you advocate to not launch leviathan for season 3. Is that right?

As it is the only game mode giving demand to illuviums asset i see it as "delaying the demand side"

[whole cypress]

ABSOLUTELY NOT.

[bleak folio]

no delay and can remake like s1 s2. too few players now

Launch leviathan for s4

[granite swift]

What do you mean by competitive Gauntlet mode ? Leviathan only or Ranked + Leviathan ?

[late rapids]

I gave it a read back @whole cypress

When you said this: "Yeah, but I don't see the point in having Leviathan open right now... I don't even have my team ready yet and I'm relatively active have been working on my team for months. I'd love to hear thoughts on that."

As the thread is for the imminent season 3 i though when you said that you dont see the point in having leviathan open you meant that as theres no current players we should launch season 3 without it

Just a misunderstanding 🤝

[whole cypress]

All good here, I'm just pointing out that the experience is bad right now and could be improved easily with some words.

[pallid veldt]

Remove Ascendant mode

• As far as i know, there are a few people loving ascendant mode and don't like gauntlet. Those people, probably wouldn't like it.
• Experience from newcomers can be mixed, more possibilities to play can be amazing but when it isn't balanced fine the experience after having played it for a while is just bad.
• Having too many modes to play in arena, splitting the playerbase and increasing qeue times for every mode, which is obviously a net negative for everyone.
• Focusing on just 1 Arena mode, gauntlet, doubles the workforce for it, resulting in faster balance updates, faster hotfixes, faster feature upgrades. (this alone lets me vote for yes, we need 1 polished arena game mode asap to kick off a continous stream of onboarding new blood into the ecosystem)

Remove Casual Mode fom Gauntlet

• Removing it decreases qeue time for ranked and levi
• no mode anymore for testing out weird teams, there's just the competitive modes left where every game matters.

How would you host tournaments? There's just ranked/levi modes lobbies with removing casual i guess?

[plush hawk]

Just leviathan and ranked modes

[next herald]

I'd say put the casual queues + survival in a separate place, something like offline practice, while for online we only have ranked + leviathan.

Usually you have casual + ranked for queues, but with leviathan it gets too diluted.

The other option is to combine leviathan and ranked into a single mode, but not sure on that one, Levi is too p2wnish rn

[next herald]

As an addition to this, you can include the option to create lobbies in the practice mode for gauntlet, kind of like the old blizzard battle.net, and people who want to practice/experiment/have casual fun can just gather there in different lobbies, without having a designated queue for it

[honest oxide]

How would you host tournaments? There's just ranked/levi modes lobbies with removing casual i guess?

We have a dedicated piece on via a new API for hosting tournaments. Just waiting for client support then we can let third-parties host tournaments etc. Will be adding match data to that API at somepoint as well.

[unique mesa]

Why do you belive rewards will start in a couple of days? we are still a week or multiple from the game being ready for season 3. Let's avoid setting expectations like that(couple sounds like 2-3 days to me)

[fading cloak]

This is a tough one I like Ascendant, seems to be the game mode that separates us from other autobattlers (I'll obviously play gauntlet).

This ''Temporary Removal'' how long will it take? is there a concrete idea on how to rework Ascendant?

[late rapids]

I said couple thinking 9 (1st nov)

Nothing has been said for s3 except "ranked gauntlet lb are expected end of october" which are s3 are all about so my and the communities expectation/guess has been 1st november to start back flush on the month

Thats only a guess for sure though

[hallow snow]

I'm not very autobattler player, so everytime I play, I do it casual. I wouldn't mind playing competitive, but only if proper ranked leagues are done (bronze, silver, gold, etc type) so I can have matches with my level.
And sorry if these leagues already exist lol, I really don't know!

[olive night]

@plush hawk There will be 3 modes for gauntlet right?

1: competitive ranked free-to-play (large player base, small rewards per player. You don’t need to own the illuvials u use)

2: competitive ranked with ownership (medium player base, mid rewards per player; you need to own the illuvials u use for them to let’s say have max level and stat otherwise it has minimum level and stat. The actual level and stat of the illuvial itself don’t matter. Ensures demand; use case and value for all illuvials. Main goal to incentivize ownership)

3: competitive leviathan (large rewards per player, small player base; stats and levels matter, this will be a whale game where only high stat high level illuvials will be used.

[halcyon plinth]

Leviathan is ownership

[olive night]

In leviathan, the only illuvials that will be used will be max stat illuvials.. you will never be on top of the leaderboard with non max stat illuvials. This will be a whale game with at max 100. Only the ones with big wallets finishing top 20. Then u have to spend more than 1k usd

[thick oxide]

Totally agree with remove temporarily, since the base player is small we should focus on one mode and makes sense if the ascendant will have a "remaking" to improve it, it does not make any sense in let players play a game that maybe will be different in so many ways.

People don't see that they will try to queue and they will have a queue for like 20-30 minutes if there are so many modes open to play.
as a new player better than have so many modes availables i would like to center in one mode so i dont learn things that maybe will not make worth my time (old ascendant)

about Leviathan and people that is not ready to play because of experience, why are you guys waiting for an announcement like "we are going live with season 3 in 2 weeks, prepare yourself" just prepare now and start grinding your experience for your illuvials otherwise you will be behind.

[pallid veldt]

2. doesn't exist, but maybe worth talking about.

My personal opinion, such a gamemode just divides playerbase but offers no advantage.

[halcyon plinth]

None required ownership just in Leviathan if you don't own the illuviul it just has the base stats

[olive night]

If mode 2 is not implemented, more than 90 % of illuvials will have close to 0 value

[thick oxide]

It is supposed that you should invest in illuvials in order to have good rewards whats the point in invest $20-$30 and receive $1k? i mean the money come from the Treasury/airdrop/marketing whatever u want to call it so it is not "infinite"

And if you don't want to do a high invest, you can farm your illuvials in OW and it will take time but you gonna make it at some point.

[pallid veldt]

i don't think so.
What's the reason a player with low stats don't wana play against a player with low stats?
A player with low stat illuvial will win up to a certain point either with skill, luck, or still has better stats then others.
As soon as that ceiling is hit, that guy tries to figure out how he can improve his collection to get higher if he wants to get higher.
Gives a sense of progression you have in many collection games.

[tidal python]

Or they quit

[olive night]

If we talk about a leviathan tournament, where you get rewards for let’s say top 50 of the participants. The only ones that will be there will be the ones that have max stat illuvials and levels. If you don’t have max stat illuvials, you do not have any chance fighting for rewards. My point is this: there are over 1m illuvials. There are only at top 10k illuvials that have close to max stats that can be used in leviathan in order to get high on a leaderboard/do good in a tournament. What about the 990k other illuvials? They have no value then? U see my point?

[pallid veldt]

yes 🙂

[pallid veldt]

if your point is people just play a game to get top 20 in tournaments i fundamentally disagree.

[olive night]

No, but then u can play free to play gauntlet. Why would anyone spend dollar for something they can’t use

[pallid veldt]

you can obviously, but it's a collection game.
People love collecting
people also love to play with their collection.

[thick oxide]

It should be that way.

Perfect stat illuvial -> expensive
Bad stats illuvial -> cheap

If you want to go to top 50 you have so many options

1. on season 3 you play ranked games for the leaderboard/tournaments so you can earn money and prepare for next season and play Leviathan (better rewards)
2. go to overworld and catch your illuvials with good/perfect stats for leviathan (good rewards)
3. invest.

[olive night]

There is a problem with this model as you hopefully can see. If there is close to 0 use case for 99% of the illuvials. With use case, I mean incentive for actually capturing it, to be able to use it for example in tournaments and leaderboards. It does not make sense to capture anything at all in a run, unless maybe once every 5 run. The value of most illuvials will go to 0, because u don’t need them. Not for free-to-play gauntlet, and not for leviathan gauntlet. That’s why I suggested mode 2: where u have rewards to incentivize ownership of illuvials, not only ownership of +20-500 usd illuvials

[tidal python]

Most people know this, they just avoid the topic. If we never had the ability to see stats more people would care. In the end we are pushing more and more people to F2P than ownership and this will be a problem for the DAO.

[thick oxide]

tbh where i see a problem is in your next statement:

"2: competitive ranked with ownership (medium player base, large rewards; you need to own the illuvials u use for them to let’s say have max level and stat otherwise it has minimum level and stat. The actual level and stat of the illuvial itself don’t matter. Ensures demand; use case and value for all illuvials. Main goal to incentivize ownership) "

So you agree with having "large rewards" with a team that cost you $20 since the level/stat you dont want to make it worth on this mode.
how is the game supposed to be "worth/profit" in order to do this? there is no way, where do you think the money come from, it is not infinite but i think i got your point it looks like that you want everything like "quickly" in order to play and win "large rewards" but unfortunately you need to put hours to grind in order to get prepared with good illuvials.

And tbh i think we are moving to other topic that has no relevant on this thread, because the main thread is remove casual mode and ascendant, that for sure needs to be removed if you dont want to come from a long day from work and sit to play and wait 30-40 minutes for a queue in order to play, since the base player is split on every mode and also confusing.

[pallid veldt]

just as a big assumption...
if there were 50k people playing leviathan, ranging from crap stat decks over good stat decks up to high stat decks, everything ranked with elo, everyone plays in his league.
You would just play leviathan if you have perfect stat max level illuvials?
or would you play, obliterate first lobbies because you have more skill than them and just see how far you come and later try improve your deck when you hit the ceiling?
maybe even into the the reward rankings ranging from 1. - 5k players, where you just get fuel or cosmetics for last ranks but still get something.

[olive night]

I rephrased a bit: Exactly, as an assumption let’s say there will be 50k players in free to play, 10k in ranked ownership and 1k in leviathan. Let’s say there was 200k in reward pool. I would split it like 25%, 50%, 25%. 50k for free to play competitive, 100k for web3-competitive where ownership of nfts matter, 50k for whales with big wallets. It would still be a lot in price money for the top people in leviathan, given that it is distributed amongst a lot less players.

[tidal python]

That's not realistic tbh. Once ranger is put into Guantlet there are going to be over 300 NFTs you need for Guantlet. Leviathan will be a bad experience for the majority of the players. People will gear towards the route that takes less effort so naturally F2P will be where most go.

[pallid veldt]

you don't need that 300 nft's.
You can play it even with 0 nft's.

Imagine, people play games just because it's fun playing, not just because they want to be rank1 in world and get rich with that.

[tidal python]

Yeah it's called ranked casual haha they wont play leviathan

[thick oxide]

Why would you promote 50k for free to play competitive?

I mean what would do a player that did not invest nothing earning $4kusd in the leaderboards/tournament for free to play?
extract everything and not help the ecosystem.
why would you invest if you are earning 4k monthly or 3k with playing only free to play mode?

What would do a leviathan player? the same $4k usd will extract some % and the rest to improve their illuvials to get perfect stats and do better in next season.

[pallid veldt]

ok 😄

[olive night]

To convert players from free to play over to paying user ofc. It’s a marketing tool. Boost fuel demand. Increase revenue.

[young cobalt]

IMO it makes zero sense keeping a mode (Ascendent) which clearly wasnt it, which is why Gauntlet was created in the first place, because Ascendent mode simply was not the way.

We have to decide which direction we are trying to focus on.
Makes no sense to split playerbase currently, especially to a mode that just isnt it.

Leviathan mode should have rewards in all division ranks, the higher rank division the higher the reward, this will incentivize gameplay for all high skill and low skill players to play in their divisions.

Its time to move away from Ascendent, if you want to rework it in the back end and re-release it later, maybe, but for now its just unnecessary space.

[thick oxide]

sounds good but better to reward the investors than the free to play, since mostly 85% want to extract.

[olive night]

That’s exactly why I suggested that 75% of the rewards would solely be geared towards people with illuvials in the form of NFTs. To stimulate ownership. Make people purchase fuel or illuvials. Not only the ones with max stats 😉 this would in turn increase revenue for the DAO. It would also increase the floor price of illuvials.

[young cobalt]

i believe we should split whatever rewards we plan to have for season 3 competitive as 50/50 between regular competitive and leviathan competitive modes, at least for this first time.

[thick oxide]

Plus it is more entertaining to watch/cast to see a 1v1v1v1v1v1v1v1 than 1v1 mirror match (ascendant), at least in Gauntlet you have RNG factor and the outcome could change in some way, i see a good final tournament casting and attracting new players 100% more in gauntlet than ascendant mode.

[olive night]

I agree to this! I have played Gauntlet now for close to 50 games like you, and it’s just a more engaging game mode. I believe the team should prioritize to develop gauntlet. The only concern I have is the fact that without a game mode with rewards where you need ownership (not a team full of 20usd+ per illuvial max stat), the nft competitive scene in the game will consist of 50 players, mainly the ones that have spent 500+ USD. What do you think about mode 2 I suggested Anon? You need ownership, then stats and levels are max, if you don’t, they are a bit weaker). Stimulates ownership and use case for non-max-stat illuvials, increasing floor prices etc. should boost fuel demand and revenue.

[young cobalt]

Gauntlet Casual
Gauntlet Leviathan
Gauntlet Casual Ranked
Gauntlet Leviathan Ranked

Ascendant Casual
Ascendant Leviathan
Ascendant Casual Ranked
Ascendant Leviathan Ranked

That is 8 different competitive modes, (not counting Overworld, Survivlal, Custom Ascendent/Gauntlet etc) i dont even think Fortnite has this much lol.

im for temporarily removing Ascendent mode and focusing on Gauntlet, making Leviathan only 1 mode, ranked, which we will only have the following instead:

Gauntlet Casual
Gauntlet Casual Ranked
Gauntlet Leviathan

[lament sky]

Only 2 modes are needed. Leviathan Gauntlet and Leviathan Ascendant. Incentivice ownership. Isn't that the only reason why the game is on blockchain?

[pallid veldt]

Gauntlet casual for testing weird stuff
Gauntled ranked for competitive scene
Gauntlet leviathan for playing with your own collection

gauntlet ascendant is basically the same as casual.
Only reason i see people wanting that is to open up another personal profit stream.
If you want to play with your own illuvials, play leviathan.
If you don't like stats, craft a GFP to delete stats.

[latent crown]

if Ascendant is getting reworked I see no point in keeping it for now. With such a small playerbase we need to stop spreading attentions.

[rustic carbon]

I agree with the idea of own to play either in ascendant or ranked gauntlet, incentivise people to own nft's as this is a blockchain game and it acts as a middle ground between f2p and leviathan, very few people outside the ecosistem will touch leviathan especially if the reward structure is looking like a poker tournament with only top heavy prizes there needs to be something that will push people to join the game spending a small/medium amount of money to join either by buying from marketplace or join ow

[analog tendon]

I personally agree with this. The only issue I have is we will need “casual lobbies” to host tournaments with 8 players in a lobby.

[pallid veldt]

#1297899904424874014 message

[unique mesa]

This makes sense to me, but as others have stated we need to incorporate an algorithm/elo system where you are rewarded/punished proportionally to the ratings of the other players in the lobby. If we are just getting base rates for placing this will to heavily reward players who can grind infinitely and not necessarily who is best at the game.

I would even go so far to say we should not start leaderboard rewards until this system is implemented

[pallid veldt]

But it could solve the smurf "Problem" we had in previous leaderboards, no?

[unique mesa]

I also think we should have a decay feature to prevent that as well. Still a potential problem depending on how the reward pays out, but right now even though I had the best win rate and avg placement I am still quite a bit below reaching anon. And this was still me playing more than 8 hours a day Saturday and Sunday.

Most people who have a life outside of ILV will not be able to compete at the top of the leaderboard. Unless the punishment of losing also scale heavily as they climb.

I would say a player who wins every 2/3 games and plays somewhere around 40 games a week should have a chance at the rank one spot compared to someone who grinds 120 games in a week, but not as well.

The other option is something similar to parallel where only X games count per day and then the rest is "practice" but that would require a lot of other changes to make viable also.

It has already been a little demotivating for some of the other competitive players who know they can't grind that much and now lost interest to be at the top of the leaderboard. I myself am only going to play to keep my self in top 16 moving forward

[next herald]

Is this not how it works currently? If you are 1600 mmr and win games with players in 1100-1200mmr bracket, you should get significantly less points, or lose more. You can pair players with lower brackets cause the playerbase is not as big currently and we dont want 1hr queue times.

If the win/loss doesn't take into account the mmr of other players in the game, then you are 100% right that it's a grind fest. In a normal working ELO system this is not a problem, cause no matter how much you grind, you cannot progress without improving, you will always get stuck at a certain rating where you belong, and no amount of grind will get you higher until you improve your gameplay.

However, with players of similar skill, grinding will always net better results, cause even if you have 51% win rate, even with a normal mmr system, the one who grinds will always outperform the 51% win rate player who plays less, just because of the volume of games. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

[young cobalt]

caveman, everytime i read your stuff youre complaining how and why we should change things so you can be better.

fkin Git Gud.

https://tenor.com/view/git-gud-viking-gif-6627407648198895902

"Hey guys im demotivated because theres 1 guy whos outworking me and outperforming me" like are you kiddng me right now.

instead of saying damn this guy should get rewarded for all this, you say all this pure envious remarks.

completely ridiculous mindset for a council member imo

Council? more like Clowncil brother 🤣 Git Gud

[pastel barn]

Couple is usually referred as 2, hence the word couple

[unique mesa]

Ya right now you get 25rp when you win no matter who you fight against.

[next herald]

Well that's just silly, you are a council member, tag whoever is responsible for how the ELO system works and ask them why it is like that, cause it shouldn't be.

The only reason I can think of, is the small playerbase. High rank players will often play with lower mmr players, and it can feel toxic winning less points than losing on a constant basis, but that's just how it is in any proper leaderboards.

[analog tendon]

Just throwing this into the conversation, isn't this exactly how Dota and League do it? a win = x mmr, a loss = x mmr?

I understand a dynamic elo system but don't a lot of games use this static system?

I don't have a horse in the race, just asking

[unique mesa]

Anon why do you respond like this?

You want this game to be good for a large amount of players, yet when a change favors the casual player you constantly push back. You talk about removing bias, yet almost every ranked system in every game out there uses a system like what I am suggesting.

[young cobalt]

do a large amount of players play the same time i do? no, youre taking 1 case and using it for a whole
youve done this multiple times

[unique mesa]

League is based on the lobby from what I remember. If you got put in a lobby full of much higher ranked players and you won, you would get significant more rp.

[analog tendon]

Please keep things civil and make arguments for points not people.

[young cobalt]

well my name was called out to make a point so i was practically summoned

[analog tendon]

I see, I know Dota doesn't do this. a win regardless is +25 MMR and a loss is -25 MMR.

The goal is to have a higher win rate thank loss rate to progress.

[analog tendon]

This goes to all participants in the conversation.

[unique mesa]

I'm just representing what other people have reached out and said why they are not playing and might not be interested in leaderboard at all.

You could present a defense that the leaderboard is for the players who grind and the tournaments are for those who are good. But if the only way to qualify is by leaderboards, then that does not cover the player base either.

[young cobalt]

first of all, were playing a mode where we play anyone in que, not by what rank you are, so that already should argue against your point

[analog tendon]

If we want to continue this discussing about ranking and leaderbaord systems (which I'm happy to have), let's move it to https://discord.com/channels/760344898200666112/974132778666971136

As it's taking away from the point of the thread

[young cobalt]

if im rank #1, and my games are based on division, i wont even be able to get into as many games
right now its based on whoever is in queue, not based on ranking or division

never would i thought we would be voicing to punish/disincentive players who put more time into the game.
sometimes its crazy the stuff i read here.

[unique mesa]

You know that's not what I am saying. It should be just like ascendant mode. You want to keep playing, but if you lose against weak players you should get hit hard and if you win against good players you should get rewarded significantly.

It just promotes a more competitive field, not just who can no life the game.

[analog tendon]

Please move this conversation to Arena chat @young cobalt @unique mesa

[young cobalt]

well yeah i agree with this

anyway regarding this post, is there any really good reason to keep Ascendent in the game currently? Especially if season 3 will be focused on just Gauntlet

[plush hawk]

Hey Mykle, only Ranked F2P and Leviathan reflecting ownership. Another mode inbetween just adds complexity and dilutes the playerbase further. 👍🏻

[granite swift]

What mode should a player, who owns a few Illuvials, play ? Leviathan or Ranked F2P ?

[pastel barn]

Probably ranked, that doesn't take into account your owned illuvuals I think

[plush hawk]

Depends on the player's preferences 🙂. They can play F2P while continuing to improve their collection, and once ready, jump into Leviathan. Or they can jump into Leviathan right from the start to experiment and figure out which Illuvials to acquire next.

[granite swift]

So players coming from TFT can play Ranked F2P and learn the game. But when they are ready to move to Leviathan, won’t they loose almost every game, unless they have a complete set of good level/stats Illuvials ? Or can they compete with just a few owned Illuvials ?

[next herald]

It's much more complex than that, and many factors have to be taken in, such as total games played of the player and everyone else in the lobby, mmr of everyone in the lobby, win streaks, lose streaks, etc.

For example win streaks should net you more points and lose streaks should lose you more points, and this effect is cumulative. This is in order for the players to reach their proper bracket faster, for smurf/alt accounts to get out of the lower brackets asap not to ruin the experience for normal players, for boosted players to drop down faster to their real bracket, etc. But this is not the thread to be discussed in so hopefully you guys can look into it.

[plush hawk]

They can compete without any illuvial if they want, but they will be at a clear disadvantage. As they improve their collection and lvl up, they will close the gap.

[granite swift]

I am by no means an expert in this area, but you have good points here. I think we are about to repeat the same mistakes again with the airdrop etc. Just having a leaderboard and a ranking system does not make playing fun and feel fair. And we are adding price pools and p2w ownership to an untested system to add even more risk that we are seen as a P2W scam. Unless we make it 100% clear that nobody should even try to enter Leviathan without a very good and expensive set, we will create extreme frustration and get bad reviews.

I would say, hide Leviathan behind one or two dialogs and make Gauntlet Ranked F2P the main Arena mode. Hide everything else behind a “Expert” wall.

We need to convince new players from a non crypto world.

[next herald]

I don't know what your suggestions have to do with my comment, but I don't think we should be hiding anything 😀

[granite swift]

Why not hide anything ?

It is almost funny. We discuss about removing Ascendant, when it would be enough to hide it behind an "Expert" dialog. First time players would be guided to the mode we want them to play, all others can still play their mode. It is that easy.

Illuvium community is once again concerned about their own bags and not about how to grow the player base.

[next herald]

Cause it's 2 different topics. For the record I don't believe ascendant should be removed at all, just scale down the queues. If people want to play ascendant and not gauntlet, trying to force them into it is an unnecessary gimmick. Scaling the queues down has no downsides whatsoever, we have too many.

[granite swift]

Nobody will buy just 1 or 2 Illuvials the way you envision. They either buy not a single Illuvial or a complete expensive set. This is going to fail to grow ownership.

[granite swift]

Yes, I agree, keep Ascendant and have fewer queues. I still think the UI should guide new Illuvium users to what we want them to play.

[next herald]

Well people with no ownership of any illuvials have no place in leviathan, as they will get curbstomped. Maybe include a minimum number of illuvials owned required in order to enter the leviathan queue, as a guidance for new players.

Other games have a similar mechanic with their ranked queues, where you need a certain amount of progression before you can enter, be it champions/illuvials/hours played/etc.

[granite swift]

When you say "dilutes the playerbase": Are you talking about the existing players or the new players we hope to get from TFT ?

Because if it is just about the existing playerbase then you only need Leviathan.

[plush hawk]

Both 👍🏻

[granite swift]

You would not have to dilute playerbase. https://discord.com/channels/760344898200666112/1292423486626856961

[harsh verge]

To be fair, most competitive gacha already works like this. Everyone competes in the same leaderboard and they know they are at a complete disadvantage compared to OGs and whales who have been in the ecosystem longer. However, these games all have a f2p hook where you can progress your account without having to break the bank, but it takes a lot more time and is gated behind small freebies and handouts.

The problem I see isn't with Leviathan being unfair, it's more that we don't have a progression system like what I mentioned.

If we're going to be a gacha game, we need gacha systems

[granite swift]

Leviathan is ok the way it is. It is supposed to be P2W, don't get me wrong. I see it the same way you do and I find it surprising that someone from Illuvium sees it differently. I am extremely worried that a new gamer sees Leviathan, tries it out and throws the game away. It will happen 100%.

[analog pond]

Im not sure if its been said already but i think we should keep casual gauntlet as I like to play it and experiment with augments/builds its very useful. I think its crucial for a newer players on wanting to learn the game. Imagine how daunting having to learn how to play the game on ranked games, and especially theres a good chance you will be matched up with top 20 players at the moment.

[harsh verge]

Well, it helps if you've been playing a lot of gacha games already because you can tell right away that's basically what Illuvium is trying to be and it feels like we're currently taking the long way for the community to figure that out 🤷‍♂️

A "pack opener" is essentially just a 10× gacha pull. Let's at least recognize that similarity

[granite swift]

The community has it figured out, that's why at least a few are trying to defend the system as is. They don't want new players or better players from TFT here. That's why a poll is ok, but should not be the determining factor.

[harsh verge]

I'm not sure we have that figured out as much as you claim because compared to other Web3 gacha games who do have their f2p hooks and conversion systems in place, we're still here discussing it as if it's a brand new problem in web3 gacha gaming.

What do you mean by "the community doesn't want new players or better players from TFT here?"

[granite swift]

I mean there is a risk that that the existing player base and community wants to avoid competition from new players. It is just normal group behavior and someone from Illuvium Labs needs to make tough decisions that keeps the existing playerbase happy, but also invites new players in.

It is pretty telling that I don't get any response when I mention progression etc. It is like the elephant in the room that nobody wants to even mention.

[next herald]

We want more competition lol, the more the better. I don't believe anyone is scared of the tft guys 😆

[harsh verge]

I feel like it's not that we don't want new players, but we just don't realize these problems are already solved by other studios. I'm pretty sure we all want to grow the player base.

The question is if we are recognizing the fact that we are actually no different from these other games on a fundamental level. If we can see the connections, then we already have many answers laid out in front of us. Let's not forget how OTG with their BR/Extraction gameplay loop is essentially an Illuvium Arena/OW gameplay loop. We aren't that unique if you look at it this way, and neither are our problems.

[granite swift]

OTG has some interesting stuff to learn. They supposedly have sell bots that keep asset prices in range. They want to avoid new players being scammed by experienced web3 dealers.

[granite swift]

Not saying we should do exactly this. But when you buy groceries you buy with a fixed price and everyone gets the same price. Nobody wants to deal with all the complexity a sales person has to do behind the scenes e.g. different prices from different producers, logistics etc. If we want mainstream gamers to buy assets like they spend on micro transactions today, we need to come up with a similar concept e.g. a AI sales bot that gives me the best price for value without me having to become an expert web 3 market participant. A micro transaction is easy to understand, a fixed priced for a given value. It is fair and this is why gamers are spending and why they hate peer 2 peer web3 marketplaces.

[harsh verge]

Well, to stay on the topic, if we're going to remove the other game modes, we need a much better progression system to build teams of Illuvials for new and f2p players, JUST LIKE other gacha games and web3 equivalents who have successfully done so.

[olive night]

The problem I see without having a mode for NFTs with normalized stats and levels, competitive web3 space, will be that 99% of illuvials with bad-good+ stats will practically have extremely low value. Floor price for these illuvials will continue to decline, because there is no use case for them. In Leviathan mode, without close to max stat illuvials, you will have extremely low probability of competing for leaderboard/tournament rewards. Those will only be people that have spent 500 usd + for a team, in other words a very small minority of players. I hope there will be a game mode in between, otherwise I struggle to see how a large player base would opt in for spending what is necessary to acquire max stat illuvials for leviathan mode. It is basically becoming a free to play mode and a whale mode, but no inscentive to actually capture average illuvials, other than for the collection aspect. If you would actually need NFTs for competing in a NFT tournament/leaderboard mode - despite what an illuvials stat and level is, there would actually be an incentive for people to get a hold of a full collection of nfts, for way less dollar spent. It would definitely raise the floor value across the board for all illuvials.

[granite swift]

They refuse to see this as a problem, basically the same mistake they made with believing a single mainstream gamer would pay for a OW card pack opening. I don’t understand this lack of understanding about mainstream gamers. They think ownership is so important to mainstream gamers, that they would just keep buying and buying.

[plush hawk]

I will bring this internally. Thank you brother for this good explanation

[pallid veldt]

adding a mode where stats don't matter could potentially increase floorprice yes, but for sure won't do anything good for average illuvials.
If you split up the playerbase into 2 modes, one with stats and one without stats. You have exactly that scenario where in leviathan are just very good stat illuvial teams or you get obliterated and in the other mode the worst stat illuvials. Everything in between super crappy and super good will get devalued by a lot.
Imo what you achieve with adding such a mode is.

• Higher qeue times
• Slightly increasing floorprice
• Massive decrease medium stat value
• Potentially almost kill leviathan mode because qeue times could end up pretty high.

And just the fact that i want play my own collection but i don't want this and that to count sounds just weird to me and i have never seen that before in any other game i played.

[young cobalt]

i dont see any issue with having a Leviathan mode and a regular mode.
eventually there will be mechanisms added which will give value to all illuvials.
this is only a matter of time.

[granite swift]

Isn’t it funny how everyone keeps ignoring this solution ? I wonder why ? https://discord.com/channels/760344898200666112/1292423486626856961

[olive night]

It would not differentiate between the value of low stat illuvials and higher stat illuvials, but this is actually not the real case now neither. unless they have close to max stats, they are basically worth the same, because there is not more utility as of now for a good+ illuvial vs one with 0 stat on all 6 stats, because you don’t need these illuvials for anything competitive anyway. And the aim for the game is to become a web 3 esports game isn’t it? Okay it is competitive in the free to play mode, probably one could get a decent size player base for this. Then there is competitive for people having spent 500+ usd, which is at max close to 100 players, But there is nothing competitive in the middle ground from 0 spent to 500 spent, where the majority of the player base that want to spend money on the game is. You had to own NFTs in ascendant to play Illuvium Arena, so demand for NFTs were there, leviathan mode was there to also take into consideration levels and stats. In gauntlet NFT ownership is not needed, unless it is close to max stat

[pallid veldt]

there is, at least from what i have seen on the marketplace.
Is there a big gap for perfect stats compared to everything else? absolutely. (and there's nothing wrong with that)
But changing it like that and pointing out you either have perfect stats or crap stats does exactly what you say. Perfect stats expensive and everything below perfect stats is on floor price.

[granite swift]

Do I understand this correctly ? You are fine with a F2P without ownership and a whale mode ? How will Illuvium make money in this model ?

[bleak folio]

s1 not only attracts new users, but also does milestone tasks to help new users deposit money into the tags to catch monsters. Create market conditions to buy and sell monsters to enter the tags, catch monsters to prepare for the arena. The fighting mode is not necessarily the mode that everyone likes the most, it's just that there are many modes for everyone to choose from. Don't let a mode slow down the game, the game only lives when there are players, not an extremely good game that no one knows about.

[echo dove]

But if a game is extremely good it will organically reach people with hype.

You can spend all the money marketing a mediocre game, but it won’t be able to retain players like the good one

[thick oxide]

I totally agree with this, but i dont agree to have limited matches or something like that because if players cant grind or play a lot should play casual.. leaderboards are supposed to be free in terms of time i mean you can get to top 1 with 10 games or you can get top 1 with 1k games like league of legends or every competitive game. If you have 10 limited matches people would not be active and also other problems will come.. longest queues etc...
tournaments should have limited matches if they are going to be automatically as i proposed on other topic.

[minor grove]

I'm a little shocked that we haven't fully moved to Levifan yet. Levifan mod should be the main one with high rewards and a system of renting iluvials. Everyone collects and chooses what to play in the season with one leaderboard for Levifan. Everyone buys a meta for themselves according to their finances, rents it or goes to guilds to become a cool cyber sportsman. And everyone fights for money and recognition. Enough to sit on two chairs. The first season of Levifan was taken by the awards of those who prepared for the season, pumped Pokemon and earned tens of thousands of dollars for it. The next season, others will come and also want to tear off a piece of the pie and will buy, rent and fuse. Why these 100500 modes were invented is a mystery to me. Okay, if you have a gauntlet - leave it, allocate 10-15% of the prize money to it, and let the F2P have fun. We came here to play games and earn money and have some fun. Web 3 games are earnings and have always been so, and then fun.

No one is going to buy stats and build decks until there are rewards for it. The fact that you are delaying Levithan as a main mod will not lead to anything. Players will not rush to build decks and pump them. As soon as they see a profit, they will rush to pump and run to ow

[patent hull]

Absolutely do it. Multiple game modes are just confusing. I don't care about the 20 people we have playing ascendant, I care about the 20 mil TFT players we need to attract.

[whole cypress]

There are many ways to incentivize owning the nfts. For instance, Illuvium can pay rewards (fuel crates imo) each day for playing up to ten gauntlet games in a day. Play ten games get fuel based on your performance. Maybe enough for one stage 1 OW run each day on average. Own some Illuvials? Great, you get bonus fuel for each Illuvial you own up to say 100% bonus each day with full set. 50% half set. 300% bonus with full holo set and 1000% bonus for full dh. Sliding scale based on what you own.

Gods unchained did a similar system and with Robbie from immutable (own gods unchained) on one of the boards Kieran can probably find out if that program is worth emulating here at Illuvium.

There are myriad ways to generate demand for Illuvials. It just needs to be created and implemented.

[young cobalt]

What do you think of implementing a ranking rewards system like Gods Unchained does every week for competitive play

[whole cypress]

The ROI on weekly, even daily incentives can be very, very high. With Illuvium, it's trickier... because of the DAO and landowners actually providing the fuel... I honestly don't know if the costs benefits exist here and it's very far from any area of expertise I possess. BUT, Illuvium Labs has contacts in this area that are experts on exactly these marketing strategies with highly relevant experience and I have confidence they will use those resources towards an excellent result. I mean, you've been playing Gauntlet, right? It's incredible. Full stop. And it's not even close to complete yet.

The incentives have also been good, imo. I enjoyed the air drop once I was able to actually immerse myself in it. This will be no different. I'm sure we'll be happy with whatever they decide to do here.

As for my personal opinion. I love the idea of daily and weekly incentives. I am a grinder at heart and logged in for years to do my dailies in WoW and that kept me engaged with the IP and active in the community with high regularity. I believe this is important to a healthy gaming ecosystem.

[bleak folio]

Do you think this new mode is so good that it attracts new players to play? New players will exclaim 'this mode is so good, I have to play this game'? Have you seen other online games that have delayed operations just because of a ranking mode? They released an additional ranking mode when they still had a large number of players. Releasing an additional mode makes players even more excited and expectant. But this game has few players and stop because of a mode. Development must be done at the same time, not doing one thing and stopping the other. Do you have statistics that there are more players in arena or gauntlet mode than OW players?

You keep thinking that this mode is so good, this game is so good, people will automatically play the game.

[echo dove]

Nope. I don’t think this mode is so good and if I did convey that it certainly wasn’t my intention.

My comment was reacting to your last statement about how a game only lives when there are players opposed to an extremely good game that no one knows about.

I meant that if a game is extremely good it WILL eventually be known about due to natural word of mouth hype

[echo dove]

I never said this game. I said any game that is extremely good.

If this game was extremely good people would just play for fun and it would have new people joining frequently

[granite swift]

Illuvial ownership being a rewards boost in F2P modes. Yes, this is the way to go IMO. With the upcoming „Illuvial rating system“ that gives each Illuvial a number based on stats/levels etc. we could even calculate the bonus factor. This would encourage ownership and uplevelling from the first cheap Illuvial onwards to a full set, ready for Leviathan.

And the rewards in F2P modes should be in-game/economy assets or fuel, not ILV. Leviathan should be special and reward good play and high value Illuvial sets with ILV.

[minor grove]

we don't need 100k free-to-play players we need 10k, ready to spend a lot of money on the leaderboard, for Pokemon with amazing stats and fight with this on the arena. All free-to-play now are playing in OW only, not any mode in the arena. Because their goal is to catch good stats, sell them, and pay cents for gas. No one will collect Pokemon and pump experience for them until they see the point in fighting in the arena. I don't play now, I buy and pump experience for Pokemon, as soon as I see the prizes for Leviathan and they are worthy, then the sellers will think - maybe it's worth not selling everything in a row but assembling a team, because the rewards there are high. And there will be many of them and there will be competition. While we dance around free to play - none of them will buy decks and pump characters. I get fun from the game, the goal of free to play is - I have not invested anything and will not invest anything, I came only to take. Fp2 players increase when investors win money and spend their money on the market. So we need investors, full stats pocemons, big prize

Only I understand this.

[granite swift]

Sorry, but your last sentence makes sense, the rest I don't understand. F2P does not mean they won't spend and rewards can always be tied to the amount they spent.

[echo dove]

So we pander to degen whales? I’m sure that will make for a really fun game my experience

[minor grove]

How will developers get paid if whales don't fight for good stats that will give them the opportunity to make a profit?

[echo dove]

One thing I notice is Illuvium is trying to be so many things at once.

To answer your question, I think the issue is more deep-rooted than most of us would like to admit.

If the average gamer doesn’t find the gameplay fun, maybe we should just make a game for sweaty whales. It would take away any fun the game had though.

[kind jackal]

but whales barely make them any money, the guy who spends 50$ once and keeps rolling it into fuel forever makes them way more

[split gulch]

Removing Ascendant would be a BAD idea.

[echo dove]

I see. You have a point. I’d like to hear Axeless’ take on this

[minor grove]

this topic is about another thing but
whales = high price rare states
whales = high land price
whales = high price token
whales = a lot of runs in OW
whales = hire ppl who ups lvl for iluvs
whales = fuse/burn a lot of iluvs
whales = create the strong deck and hire pro games for tournaments etc
whales = fight on the market for good states so quickly sells
whales = increase revenue = more players
whales = competitive between guilds
whales = pay salary gamers
etc
So Levi is this mode in game.
Guys, you don't have web3 crypto game where the team is ready to take 50% of the treasure and give us that money who don't produce any revenue and leave 50% the ppl who produced.
IF you told me about fun - you can play on ranked without rewards and get only fun, but i think you won't agree with me)

[granite swift]

You are worried about giving ILV rewards to F2P players. Yes, I agree, there are better ways like fuel or in-game assets.

You need to be more specific about whales. You won’t get new whales from the crypto community. That leaves us with mainstream whales from TFT etc. The problem with Leviathan is its P2W + NFT aspect, which basically is a HUGE red flag with mainstream TFT gamers. We need to introduce them to the fair ranked F2P version. OTG showed us how you can have a NFT game and still make it look and feel like a mainstream game.

So yes, you are right that we want whales, who doesn’t? The question is how to get them.

[kind jackal]

there's not really such a thing as a TFT whale

at least not in terms of gameplay, but if u can somehow make an autobattler as godlike as TFT then there's plenty of people who'll spend thousands on cosmetics

[granite swift]

Yes, and this is why Kieran brought up the idea of Illuvials as cosmetics in F2P. And this Illuvial bought as a cosmetic, would then also help you build your set for game modes where ownership matters. Slowly nudge them into ownership. If someone from TFT has enough expendable money to buy a whole perfect set for Leviathan then fine, but we should not bet on it.

And for this to really work, we need to make ownership matter from the first owned Illuvial on. Like a reward bonus and not just cosmetic.

[minor grove]

Very easy - at the beginning do good rewards for levi, and show whales that levi is important to the team. the 1st levi tournament/leader board 75% more rewards than ranked. And yes the 1st season on levi will earn ppl who have the best stats and deck, levels and there will be only 50-100 ppl, but next season will be 1 000+ coz ppl when catching Pokemon with good stats will think - hold it for me for levi and will move up on leaderboard higher next season or selling now. ppl will start to up levels for iluv coz anybody doesn't do it now. It's a lot of runs in OW. Then the economy will increase. So we have 3 leaderboards - Milestones, Ranked and Levi. All that is needed is to wisely distribute the rewards between these three boards. if I am not right pls correct me pls

[granite swift]

Why do you always say Pokemon ?

Why would a TFT player, who hates NFTs, buy hundreds of dollars worth of Illuvial NFTs to compete in Leviathan for a reward that might not even compensate for the investment ?

[minor grove]

i made mistakes with alluvials name)

[minor grove]

they don't need to do it- they can play ranked and have fun. we found ppl who wanted to do with risk

[granite swift]

Okay, so how do you increase the number of Leviathan players ? Because the existing players have already built their Illuvial set and won't spend much more, maybe some in-game boosts during Leviathan game play, but not on Illuvials.

[minor grove]

yeap, those who collected a full deck the 1st will have advantages a little bit than others but you can concentrate on 1 deck not full decks and take a high place on the board and every season will increase illuvials in your deck or you is good playes and whales/guilds hire you and share decks with you. You will earn % of the leaderboard and tournament.
Example 1 Seson levi leader board prise 20k (this aspect is very important) , i like the system of leaderboard in the axe infinity but need to check % for each place.
1-10 places - 25% of rewards
10-50 places - 25% of rewards
50-200 places - 25% rewards
200-1000 - 25% rewards
You won't have good decks with good stats, but you know how to play and take 50 places and get good rewards, but next season you won't improve your deck and you won't level up. People from another game hear about a good price for a deck around $100 and good rewards. They bought and leveled up their illuvials. But you won't do that. Next season you'll meet and they'll beat you. and you'll take 200 places. Analyze your deck and understand that you need to level up. This is an important part of levy. The first seasons we'll be able to take high places and good rewards, but other players will come because the cost of the deck and the number of people in the game are small and they will want to take it too. And what should start will begin
But if rewards are low we can't to lure other players into our game and make them improve our economy

[kind jackal]

spending too many resources on leviathan ladder seems kinda pointless if their goal is profit, raids or something similar in overworld that need perfect stat illuvials to clear would be probably better in that sense

[minor grove]

we need everything and now) I agree with you)

[desert magnet]

Yes, we need everything! 🚀

But not right now. Wait a little) Let me finish the deck first)

[minor grove]

i can wait a little bit buddy)

[harsh verge]

Web 3 games are earnings and have always been so, and then fun.

I'm hoping that changes, though. This is one of the reasons I think web2 despises web3, because they see it as a bunch of profiteering and p2w with minimal effort in actually making a good game.

[desert magnet]

I hope that adding a collective element will make Illuvium truly interesting.
Unfortunately, the entire Overworld gameplay right now is: enter a battle, see the stats, exit, enter a battle, see the stats, exit. Repeat thousands of times.

[pallid veldt]

OW runs (pack opening) will always feel like a grind.
you can add ow battle, or whatever to get the assets. It's always a super repetitive task.

[desert magnet]

I would like to have an alternative way to earn in-game valuables.

Are my friends online? I go to the dungeon to get valuable resources there.
Do I want to play alone? I go to the Overworld.

In both cases, I spend my time and receive a comparable reward. But this way, it would be more fun.

[pallid veldt]

sure but don't expect that this won't feel as grindy as ow is right now after a month.

[granite swift]

You assume that a TFT player hears about good rewards in Leviathan, then buys Illuvial NFTs for $100 with not so perfect stats/levels and then goes into P2W matches against players with better sets, but ignores the unfair game play, because he/she will make some money from rewards, then invests into better Illuvials …

I can tell you that this will fail to attract TFT gamers. It will push them away from Illuvium.

[minor grove]

we don't need TFT players, they can play in Web 2

we need these players and a lot of other players from web 3

[granite swift]

Okay, so you want to get players/investors from other web 3 communities to invest in Illuvium assets and play Illuvium games instead of their own ?

Do you think that the expectation of high rewards in Illuvium will lure them over and if yes, will they stay or sell their assets when the rewards are gone ?

This also assumes that they don't have good rewards in their community. I don't have numbers, but my gut tells me, that these communities are as much concerned about luring players from Illuvium into their community as we are.

You can of course attract the mercenaries, if the rewards are high enough and some may actually stay. But I am not sure, if this is a good long term strategy.

At some point we need to grow beyond web 3 investors/players, so I would do both: Leviathan and F2P with a nice progression from F2P to Leviathan.

[minor grove]

I am not against it, only for if they switch, just do not feed them more than those who will support and maintain the ecosystem now. Free-to-play players are always unhappy with donators both web2 in any game and in web3, I would not bet on them much. They can play for free and enjoy the game as well

[granite swift]

You do realize that F2P does not mean that they don‘t spend ?

[minor grove]

do y understand what is it f2p means? Ranking mode - f2p you don't spend anything only create an account

[harsh verge]

All the games I spent the most money on, I always started f2p. But I always got hooked because of the gameplay and progression systems.

And I never liked the games that had very distinct paywalls to progress unless they were some kind of subscription based game or you pay upfront.

I'm fairly certain this is a common sentiment among gamers.

[granite swift]

Hm, maybe you should learn more about the gaming world. I am not a gamer, but I learn every day and I know that this is wrong.

[minor grove]

okay buddy, I learned you a little bit - ranked gauntlet is free decks for everyone. you need to spend only time for understanding mechanics in this mode. If you understand - can earn ilv from pool rewards. Its F2P mode - abbreviation for free-to-play : able to be played without having to pay anything, for example because a game is available free on the internet or as a program on your phone or computer. You need 0 $ and can earn rewards ILV. this mode - any impact on economy
ranked levi - you need to play your illuvs with your stats and levels, its not F2P - yiu can't play without buying illuvs

[granite swift]

So what about the Illuvials as cosmetics we talked about ? Micro transactions etc. ? When F2P players love the game they will spend.

[minor grove]

this not F2P i agree with you if y buy cosmetics. but we speak about other mods

[minor grove]

if we want to see revenue from cosmetics for covering team developing - i don't know hom much players we will need fo it... around 75k players who will be spend 20$ on cosmetic every month

[granite swift]

There are different types of players and we want them all and even small spenders can become big spenders. I would focus on good games and player count and careful monetisation that does not feel like a scam. Most gamers love honesty and fair game play. Give F2P players rewards they can use in-game e.g. OW fuel and honor their small little investments e.g an Illuvial they bought for 10 cents that gives them a bonus in the next ranked F2P game. While you guys fight it out in Leviathan. These are 2 separate groups of people, we should not throw them together or value one over the other.

[harsh verge]

I can attest to this. ILV rewards always felt scammy to me. It's like compensation for me to play a game I otherwise wouldn't play.

OW felt scammy to me too, because I HAVE to pay to play. But not just that, I have to play a LOT of times to get anything decent, and this is back when they were pricing a run at 5 USD

Like... It's so strange to me that I have no problem paying 1000s of dollars for gacha rolls in genshin impact, but you put a system like OW in front of me and I'm like 🤮

[granite swift]

Yes, because paying for OW still requires time+skill. This mixes up money with skill+time and does not make the investor happy nor the player. Illuvium needs to clearly separate both groups and still make them work together.

[harsh verge]

To me, it's the excessive amount of RNG. I don't mind hunting the Illuvials, but the RNG is so skewed, especially if you can't see stats

Most other gacha systems give you a pity, where you know exactly at what point you'll get your guaranteed pull. And there usually aren't layers upon layers of RNG. This system is just merciless because there's nothing but pure luck. It completely kept me away on launch and I didn't even bother trying higher stage runs until now when fuel is priced so low, and only because I can still see stats.

And to add to that, your very first stage 1 run is just to farm for shards and mats before you can even start catching Illuvials... Seriously, who thought this was a good idea?

[desert magnet]

If this already causes you so much negativity, I seriously fear that completely hiding Illuvial stats (until you catch them) will only make things worse. If beginners can slowly but surely build their decks now, with full stat concealment, they will never be able to put together even remotely decent teams.

[tidal python]

Because in a proper gacha system no matter if you roll a shit character or a really rare character you are making positive progression in your game. Illuvium is a gacha system (which illuvials you get) inside another gacha system (rare stats or holo/dark holo). We somehow created a gacha inception and you don't have the proper progression system to go with it.

[harsh verge]

Thank you. This is the point exactly.

And this is why we keep missing the mark trying to "incentivize" playing the game or trying to keep good stats rare, when the game design of OW (with concealed stat information) gives you the feeling of negative progression even after you've paid for it. It literally breaks all the rules of a proper gacha game design.

If they want to introduce so much RNG, you have to balance it with an added mechanic that gives players agency or a sense of control/progression - seeing stats or some kind of stat info via a "power scanner" is a perfect example. Other games let you reroll 1 stat on a piece of gear, as another example. Breaking down bad copies of a gacha roll into essences or xp is, again, another classic example. Otherwise it just degenerates into a pure slot machine gamba experience.

[uncut moat]

I agree adding modes is way more risk than reward. But Mykle is 100% correct that we currently have nothing for ownership, the current Leviathan is not the answer. I believe the right strategy is diminishing the Leviathan advantage, right now a top Illuvial is something like a 200%+ advantage at least. Reduce this to 40-50%, where general ownership closes the gap a meaningful amount and it could help resolve this.

[obtuse spire]

Not sure I agree with this. A top illuvial with 5 max stats is rare and doesn't give 200%+ over a illuvial with all stats at 4 (nor at 3). It's just misinformation at this point. We don't have a good overview of leviathan because games are dominated by people with lvl 60 illuvials. Once more people level up illuvials, we will have a better idea. A level 60 5/5 ad and att speed has a 12.5% damage increase over a level 60 4/5 ad and attack speed. Nowhere near 200%. For 3/5 it's 27.5% more. Maybe it's too much but i'm of the opinion that currently the big difference is people who grinded levels (they spent a lot of time)

[uncut moat]

Yes and time is relevant. I am comparing a standard level 30 with mid tier stats as the baseline.

Lets say you have 3 Rhamphys, a 'base' level 30 with 3's across the board, a 'strong' at level 60 max stats, and a 'common' with 1s across the board and level 20.

The common Rhamphy has 195 Attack, 110 Attack Speed and 2145 HP
The base Rhamphy has 240 Attack, 130 Attack Speed and 2640 HP
The strong Rhamphy has 330 Attack, 150 Attack Speed and 3630 HP

Common DPS = 215
Base DPS = 312
Strong DPS = 495

Common TTK Strong = 16.88s
Base TTK Strong = 11.63s
Strong TTK Base = 5.33s
Strong TTK Common = 4.33s

This isn't including Omega Power or Resistances, which compounds this current 2x kill time differential even further. Not only that but a max Omega lvl 60 Rhamphy will literally nuke anything that isn't a max hp max resistances tank with its Omega without any sort of competition.

So you either have all level 60 Illuvials or you don't bother playing. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but you should still see it for what it is, unwelcoming in its entirety.

All that being said, once levelling up Illuvials isn't a complete snooze, it does improve this a lot.

But there's a reason you can level up Pokemon to 50 in like 10 seconds in most modern Pokemon Games, and in competition they are all standardised to level 50.

[obtuse spire]

I think you can have decent success forcing a team you leveled up in leviathan and I don't think it's fair game to compare a level 30 with a level 60. When you say you want to reduce the impact of top illuvials, would you reduce stats, levels or both?

[hot sonnet]

A few thoughts:

Firstly, it's clear that currently a lot of people don't understand the various game modes.

And 8 is too many and diluting the playerbase.

And Leviathan as a lot of people are saying will be a relatively small portion of the player base. This is for the whales / the pay to win crowd. Which everyone I think knows is a relatively small crowd of gamers. Most people want to complete on gameplay, not on who spends the most. The highest level/best stat illuvials from OW will be in demand for this.

But, there's no point trying to bring demand to mid tier illuvials with another new game mode. Most mid tier/low tier illuvials will be relatively low value whatever happens. And that's as expected.

Most will be F2P players with the monetisation of Arena in the form of skins/cosmetics and via tournament entry.

And that's why clearly they're moving to a F2P overworld mode with story/gameplay progression and presumably a battlepass type monetisation rather than runs with fuel microtransactions.

[granite swift]

Fair game play for everyone, earnings boost according to owned Illuvial power. Don‘t ever invade P2W elements into gameplay. Make every Illuvial I own count in leaderboard rewards, but not on leadership position. Everyone will understand that their skill is rewarded and they can boost their earnings with money, but not their skill. Money where it belongs to, and skill where it matters. I buy one more Illuvial and next time I get more reward on my leaderboard position. Easy to understand.

[plush hawk]

Absolutely.

[granite swift]

Ideally we would all be playing in just one skill ranked mode. It is possible. And we can give owners of perfect stats Illuvials a special earnings boost.

[uncut moat]

Hard to say tbh, probably both. Make the max gain from stats closer to 30%, and the max gain from level 30% or so, almost halving them both which would go a long way.

You're not wrong that comparing a level 30 with a level 60 is unfair, but really getting an illuvial to level 60 is not enjoyable. So how can you expect anyone to want to actually do that? Anyone new to the ecosystem that is.

[granite swift]

Exactly, Leviathan players won‘t get any new fresh blood. No one is stupid enough to compete against them without owning a perfect set. Or they try, fail to win and leave Illuvium.

[minor grove]

decrease impact for stats on 33% from 50% to 30% - decrease runs in OW on 33% and fuse on 33%. So as a result - decreased the economy by 66%. If you do it - then you need to close the ranked gauntlet and leave only Levi coz every one very easily can have almost full stats and can play in levi, It will be very cheap and guys can play. The price for Rare stats falls dawn around 50-70%, low stats won't buy anybody, ppl will try to catch only full stats - the runs will not be profitable. who will be doing it? Up levels is hard - but up level in every game is hard. This is a normal process. We can decrease experience for up and destroy economy more than now. In every game rare heroes, and rare items give owners more powerful options. Thats why they have different leagues for that.
in this case, decrease 50-30% needs to close stats in-game - then maybe we can not destroy the economy, cos low stats will be good too

[plush hawk]

Disclaimer: These are my thoughts as a player, thus not representing the team.

I've been thinking about the future of the game, specifically how Ranked and Leviathan modes could eventually merge into one cohesive mode to simplfy things and encourage player conversion. Here’s my vision:

• A Free-to-Play (F2P) mode where everyone has access to all Illuvials for free.

• Owned Illuvials would provide a default 5% bonus to stats (regardless of level or traits).

• An additional 5% bonus would be tied to level and traits, allowing for a maximum total bonus of 10% for fully leveled and traited Illuvials.

This approach keeps everyone playing in the same mode while still rewarding ownership. Even "lesser" Illuvials become valuable because they offer an instant 5% bonus, while "premium" Illuvials provide the opportunity to extend that bonus to 10%.

You might argue to push the bonus from 10% to a higher value, but I think that would be counterproductive, as if we make the gap too agressive, there will be no room for F2P players to compete. Think about it, a 10% stat bonus is highly significant from a competitive standpoint. Even a 1% advantage can make a noticeable difference, so this system would reward ownership without making the game feel too unfair for F2P players or those with low-cost Illuvials.

By keeping the bonuses modest yet impactful, we can strike a balance between competitiveness and incentivizing ownership. If the gap is too large, greed could alienate the player base. However, by keeping things close, we encourage more players to convert from F2P to owners, and from casual owners to more dedicated ones.

Ultimately, this balance would drive demand and increase the value of assets within the ecosystem, benefiting everyone involved.

This concept came to me when I woke up, and it all made sense in my head. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts!

---

I also think this system works particularly well with many other games and genres we could bring up in the future.

[granite swift]

I like the direction this idea goes, but why not separate earnings from gameplay completely like I proposed ?

[plush hawk]

Dont worry about earnings right now. We have multiple ways to make that fair, just focus on the concept brother.

Imagine you come from scratch, what do you prefer, two separate modes or a single mode where everyone has a chance and that encourages bridging players from F2P to WEB3 ownrship?

[next herald]

It's a good idea, I've been thinking of something similar. 10% bonus is more than enough, compared to the craziness we currently have.

For casual play we can still remain the f2p gauntlet as it is and ranked becomes ranked+leviathan combined.

Sounds good on a first glance.

[minor grove]

interesting, its pity that i know this position of team when i spent 15k on stats illuvs but anyway will go to sell everything

[granite swift]

I have always proposed a single fair gameplay mode for everyone. I want a 100% fair game play and stats/level should only affect earnings. Have you even read my posts ?

[plush hawk]

This ain't a team position, if you read accurately. It's just my player opinion.

Plus precisely this proposal aims to increase illuvial value.

[granite swift]

And please don‘t call me brother. I am not your brother.

[minor grove]

okay o explain who will be buy new illuvs? if need 50$ to collect full deck? who will buy rares stats? who will plya in ow?

how market will produce revenue?))

[next herald]

Would that mean there will be no mode with normalized stats?

I think it's better if we keep the f2p gauntlet separate as normal/casual queue for casual play, practice and learning the game. If new players jump straight to this combined mode, they will have a negative experience of not knowing why they are losing and immediately blame it on the p2w.

[plush hawk]

Thats a good call, we could have casual for that 👍🏻

[granite swift]

This is why we need just one mode with 100% skill based gameplay and ownership should only matter for rewards later on.

[next herald]

Sounds good, 1 queue for casual and 1 queue for the new ranked/leviathan mode. Clean and straightforward.

[granite swift]

At least an improvement.

And it will still fail because TFT players will call the ranked/leviathan a crypto scam. Just wait for it.

Have we not learned anything ?

[next herald]

TFT has the luxury of riding on LoL's back, we don't have that. Nothing wrong with us being a bit different.

[granite swift]

It will fail, because your a bit different is hated by all mainstream gamers. I am shocked that we need to discuss this.

[next herald]

What's so different of buying packs for other card games and buying illuvials for leviathan, provided it's p2w characteristics are scaled down?

[granite swift]

Because it is NOT FAIR gameplay. It is P2W, they will never know why they lost. Because their gameplay was bad or they didn‘t invest enough ? It is a horrible experience that makes only owners of good Illuvials happy until Illuvium and ILV went to zero because player count stagnated or went to zero.

[next herald]

But that's literally how most card games work?

[harsh verge]

The difference is we're in a digital medium. In the digital world, the card pack analog is basically a gacha system. And we currently don't have the other mechanics supporting this type of system in Illuvium to make it work fairly or work well

[granite swift]

It does not matter. Add NFT and P2W and mainstream runs away.

[next herald]

Which supporting mechanics are you talking about

[minor grove]

collect better stats and will do pro player and everything will be fair. in formula 1 win drivers with the best car and best pro driver, Is it not fair? Footbal - best pro player with the best trainer will win the tournament - its not fair? life isn't fair) that true so go to send bind for best stats and up levels)

[harsh verge]

For instance, if you're going to add layers of RNG to opening a pack or rolling in gacha, there is always a pity system that guarantees you a desirable pull/card. As a matter of fact, even pokemon cards come with at least 1 rare card per pack. We don't have anything like this in Illuvium to give the player a sense of control or expectation when doing a run in OW.

Secondly, the overall power level of any given character is divided up by having to farm for equipment or gear and by leveling up, etc. some examples are the artifact system in Genshin Impact, or runes in Summoner's War. It's not enough in those games to just have the character, you have to build them by farming for equippable items via f2p gameplay.

Third, they almost always hand out a bunch of freebies in the beginning by getting players to play through content that enables you to get a starter set of characters via gacha pulls, and then they usually trickle those freebies via more game content that you have to play through to get.

These are just a few examples and I'm not suggesting we do exactly these things in the exact same way, but these kinds of systems support the gacha pulling mechanic to give players a sense of fairness and progression.

[minor grove]

Creating gacha cards is good option but use fuel - if somebody wants to find nature or psion heroes quickly - they can but without guarantees top result

but result should be the same like in OW - 100-200 runs 1 iluv with full stats)

[granite swift]

Yes, just tell the TFT player to spend a few more hundred/thousand and here it is your fair gameplay.

[minor grove]

man i told you why y try to compare tft web2 game? if they decided to leave from game - everything will leave in the game. in web 3 - you can sell everuthing because y pay for it and its yours

only gas in OW y can't sell)

[hasty crow]

do you understand that in TFT people are playing for fun? They don't have such big prizes(or even at all idk) like in Illuvium. And here people are playing for MONEY. if you want to play for fun go play ranked, who stops you?

[granite swift]

Okay, I am going to leave this thread now. I made my point.

[uncut moat]

I really like where your head is at. I actually think 2 modes is fine tbh, its 3+ where you see major issues. I'd keep one as your F2P with the 5%, maybe even 10% boost for ownership, then you also have the Leviathan mode with something like 15-20% max boost.

Its worth noting that Lizard League needs to stay top of mind. It will essentially allow wagering in Illuvium, when that comes I'd definitely prefer to have Leviathan remain separate and become more of a hardcore zone for these sorts of high stakes competition.

[next herald]

1st - if a player doesn't like rng and want a guaranteed/desirable pull they can buy the card/illuvial in the marketplace and thus have a 100% guaranteed result, no rng. They can also sell this asset, unlike most other games.

2nd - our assets, being nfts, have monetary value. The problem of f2p + monetary value is it becomes free real estate for bots, which will ruin the whole thing for everyone.

3rd - I think this is already being considered.

[minor grove]

yeap soon we will see how 1 player will create a lot of accounts in ranked gauntlet and will play for rewards coz its free) and bots i think too

[latent crown]

15-20% max boost for leviathan mode is a nothing burger.

[next herald]

Rewards can be adjusted at any point and time

[harsh verge]

1 - the problem with this is you have to make up for the RNG by going to a marketplace, a completely non-gameplay based system which is the original detractor for so many players. Remember how the auction house got scrapped in D3 and player sentiment was so relieved when that happened?

2 - not every single asset has to be an NFT. I think you're missing the point when I am saying this because this has nothing to do with creating equippables for your Illuvials that are NFT-based. These are equippables that are non-NFTs.

3 - if it's being considered but implemented without the content to back it up, it'll still be an issue with bots

[minor grove]

yes) but 10 accounts will take the same) and we will think wow we have more players) but no)

i know how ppl during airdrops use a 5-10 accounts and get rewards so the same will be in this season ranked gauntlet

[next herald]

1 - totally disagree here, marketplace/auction house is widely accepted by most gamers. RMAH was wrongly accused for p2w when there was nothing to win in d3, it's a PvE game. Also the gaming market is MUCH different than during that timeline (unfortunately).

2 - I agree here, not any asset needs to be an nft, but what do you suggest here, that won't require a complete overhaul and 1 + year of work?

[next herald]

So is it better the rewards are gated by an insanely p2w mode that no one but 100 people are gonna play? That's the suggestion of Nil, to scale down the leviathan p2wness, merge it with ranked, and try to get the best of both worlds.

[minor grove]

1st time 100, 2nd 500 , 3d 5000

[harsh verge]

1 - It might be accepted, and I've even used it for GoG to build my team with it, but I ALSO get free and earned rolls in their gacha banners. It doesn't have to be one or the other. There can be a balance that makes it fair whether you're a whale or not

2 - I highly doubt it'd take that long to make something like that work. You can literally just calculate the ratios between Illuvial power vs item power and copy another games system as a stand-in to get a working concept going. Then split the influence of the items into 5 tiers and balance as needed. You can literally just put PvE dungeon runs in Arena, fight 10 levels to reach a big oversized Illuvial and defeat it for some equippable items. We just need a working concept. It doesn't need to be a fully finished system. We're in Beta

[next herald]

I'd much rather see a crafting rework with more interesting recipes and more rng/replayability built into it, with cooler effects and it's cost scaled down massively, so people can craft stuff nonstop in hope of hitting BiS stats. Kind of like a slot machine. And if we can include essences or other hard to obtain but not paid consumables into it, we have a fun system at hand. But that's derailing from the topic.

[kind jackal]

why not just take levels out of the equation and just autoscale every illuvial that enters leviathan to the same level? that way the time commitment is way lower to get a team but the max stats keep being premium illuvials?

[minor grove]

coz its revenue + from OW(buy gas)

[kind jackal]

yea but if you go with the 5%-10% difference then you're getting the same result in terms of fuel buyers

[minor grove]

what do you mean 5-10%?

you mean that say Nil? if yes - 5-10% kill project, forget about that

[harsh verge]

However it gets done, these are staples for any successful gacha game, and we're currently breaking almost every rule for it

[kind jackal]

ye, no, the 5-10% thing is way better than what leviathan currently is, but you can compromise giving more power % in return for less grinding

[minor grove]

50+10% for 60 lvl and 1 lvl with 50%?

[kind jackal]

that's up to the team to come up with, to me levels don't make sense at all for anyone who just wants to play gauntlet, they seem to be there for land owners instead

[desert magnet]

The current model of Leviathan is excellent and perfectly aligns with its original purpose — a mode designed for whales and active players.

If you invest money and play well (or hire a skilled player), you can expect significant returns, recouping your investment. If you invest but play poorly, your returns will be smaller. Playing well without financial investment will also yield results, but to a lesser extent. And if you neither invest money nor put in the effort, then the casual mode is where you belong.

Leviathan is about investment — both financial and time. Every player in Leviathan sacrifices something in pursuit of profit.

Leave Leviathan as it is. People have already placed their bets, spent money and time. If this level of competition doesn't suit someone, it simply means they didn't try hard enough or didn't pay enough.

[kind jackal]

that's all a cool wall of text but how does that exactly help Illuvium, speaking as a guy who's close to having a complete leviathan team. Cuz to me it seems that this mode is dead in its current iteration unless it gives out more money than people spent on mons, which at some point the Illuvium team is gonna have to stop doing. So as a guy who wants to play this mode i'm looking at it currently not able to fill a lobby without discord coordination and wondering who am i even gonna get to play against, cuz there's for sure not even 100 leviathan ready teams currently in the game.

[desert magnet]

Leviathan generates profit through massive fuel purchases and commission fees from Illuvidex, and with sufficient media support, it inspires new players to join the mode, creating a chain of those willing to invest and compete at this level.

And that's just the tip of the iceberg, without even delving into the details.

[desert magnet]

The real issue is that we don’t have enough game modes that make use of powerful Illuvials. I’d love to use them not only in PVP but also in PVE, for example, when my friends and I go through dungeons against AI. This would bring more variety to the game and attract players who aren't interested in PVP modes.

[kind jackal]

If we assume there's even 100 complete leviathan teams and it would cost you 25k$ to buy one, if all those teams changed hands 4 times ILV is barely making 100k in fees, i made them 10% of that in my fuel+orders, so that's absolutely insignificant is the problem, they're gonna be paying way more than 100k in prizes themselves

but on the 2nd point yea dungeons/hard content in PVE that needs perfect stats has way more money making potential because then you don't even need whales, you can have people just make 1 perfect team which would be way more accessible

[next herald]

In my opinion the p2w parts of the ecosystem should be focused on games/modes where players play together, meaning p2w and not p2w players compete towards a common goal. The autobattler should be as balanced as possible, as p2w in such competitive games is not largely accepted. The problem with that is any multiplayer/co op/dungeons/raids content is very far away and we need use case for the stronger illuvials currently, so leviathan is the only option to display their prowess.

[minor grove]

prize 50k on leaderboard for next season in levi and everybody will be play on levi but not ranked, and next season everybody will up levels, fuse etc

[minor grove]

yes it is too easy go to market with only full stats illuvs and buy everything that you want, any failed fuse, only click and buy on 25k and + 4-5 day to up 60 lvl for 2-3 iluv
for collect full decks with full stats need a lot of ppl with runs in illuv, need a lot of resourses etc - 2-4 month need

[hot sonnet]

Why do we need to reward ownership via gameplay boosts? Cant we reward ownership cosmetically in some way?

Why don't we keep gameplay on an even level and allow people to battle on a level playing field, wth most skilled winning.

TFT monetisation is via cosmetics on F2P.
And keep leviathan for ownership.

Just because we have blockchain doesn't mean we need it to impact gameplay

[hot sonnet]

Agree totally - Leviathan as a mode caters to a certain small part of the long term player base. Let them pay thousands and duke it out.

But then have a mode that isn't affected by ownership that focus on a level playing field and skill to win

[harsh verge]

I think that was stated to be the last resort if this project doesn't work any other way, that we default to skins only

[minor grove]

ranked gauntlet no?

[hot sonnet]

Yes, exactly. Ranked gauntlet works perfectly for that - I'm just saying don't let illuvial ownership affect people's ability to win ranked gauntlet with stats boosts

[minor grove]

yeap i agree, i will play too in 1,2 mode

[hot sonnet]

It won't be, as there will be a dedicated Leviathan mode for ownership.

But skins plays into F2P gauntlet. You can either have direct skins purchasing or allow skins to be created based in some way on the illuvials you own.

So ownership via overworld helps, it just doesn't affect gameplay

Protect gameplay!

[harsh verge]

I see... Here's another thought. Why don't we just hand out/sell "unrefined fuel" that can only allow you to catch non-NFT Illuvials that have absolutely no bonus stats, but you can convert them into NFTs with a rare or expensive currency and get a roll on bonus stats once minted

Even in LoL you still have to earn your champions in some way, why not have a sort of system like that?

[delicate shuttle]

I like the general approach, but as many have already mentioned, without a free-to-play (F2P) TFT-style game mode, we have no chance of attracting mainstream gamers who are used to autobattlers being F2P. I believe that 99% of TFT players, when they look at another autobattler and see they need to invest*** insert dollar amount here*** to play competitively, will instantly turn away.

I don’t think offering a rewarding F2P ranked mode is as extractive as it’s sometimes portrayed.

Once we have a healthy player base, reaching the top 100, for example, will be reserved for the most dedicated Illuvium players. Even if TFT pros and semi-pros join, they would have to spend hundreds of hours learning Illuvium and maintaining their place on the leaderboards. Players who dedicate hundreds of hours to our game should be seen as a huge value add. F2P players are free marketing, and word of mouth is arguably the best marketing there is.

In conclusion, if we want to go mainstream, we can't achieve that without having a competitive F2P mode similar to TFT and other autobattlers. We can make it less extractive by reserving rewards for the top 0.1% for example, ensuring bots have no chance to claim those rewards. However, if we’re willing to forfeit that goal and focus solely on the web3 audience, then I agree that we can stick to a single ladder that incentivizes ownership and strong Illuvials.

I wonder if there’s an approach where we could nudge players toward ownership without giving them a competitive disadvantage if they don’t own anything. One idea that comes to mind is something similar to what has been proposed before, where owning an Illuvial in the F2P mode would level it up and unlock skins. For example, if you own at least one Atlas, it could give you the opportunity to earn experience and levels for Atlas in the F2P gauntlet. When your Atlas reaches level 20 and 40 you unlock the holo and dark holo skin (or real skins to not devalue holo/darkh.).

Lastly, these opinions come from a long-term autobattler player, and I’m not speaking on behalf of the council or anyone else.

[plush hawk]

Gr8 insights man.

[delicate shuttle]

Even in LoL you still have to earn your champions in some way, why not have a sort of system like that?

I think we need to be carefull to not put TFT and LoL or something like Pokemon in the same hat. They are very different game genres with very different audiences.

Moba and Creature Collectors - unlock your champions / capture your Creatures
Autobattlers: install and play with full features

I think we shouldn't try to change what people got used to over the last 5 years of playing autobattlers like TFT.

[kind jackal]

The "earning champs" is overblown as well, lol at this point is extremely new player friendly and if you look at dota 2 all champs are free as well

[pallid veldt]

more like 5 years than 15 years 😄

[desert magnet]

Fuel is an inviolable resource. ⛽
It can only be obtained from paid land. Yes, the developers increase its supply (referring to the 5% + 95%), but the original source is always the same—only the land. This is clearly stated on the main page of the website, in the Illuvium DAO section and the Whitepaper. Breaking this fundamental principle is unacceptable.

[minor grove]

few questions - how the market will produce revenue? who will be fuse illuvs with stats and for what? Who will buy gas? Idea about dark holo @distant canyon will be happy)

[late rapids]

I like the intention here but i think our onboarding mode has to be standardized. Jumping in an auto battler game and having a disadvantage vs those who already invested time/money wouldnt be a good experience

Having free/standardized to onboard is perfect, but we cant reward this too much has it only extracts from the ecosystem

Leviathan is great as a hardcore mode because people need to invest a lot of money and time in the ecosystem to compete there. But here the entry barrier is really high and its not standardized

If this free & leviathan model doesnt work i think going back to the original ascendant plan of free, ownership+standarized & leviathan would be the best

Free = for fun/unboarding (no rewards)

Ownership/standarized stats = main competitive scene (low entry barrier)

Leviathan = big exciting tournaments and rewards but less than the other mode

PS: even without merging the modes i would totally support reducing the current stats and level impact on the illuvials. Its way too high right now and that only makes it more pay 2 win vs skilled based

Reducing the stats and level impact wouldnt affect the current price as you would still want the best stats and level if you want to perform better

[hot sonnet]

How do you earn the champions? Is it via gameplay progression?

[kind jackal]

play game = progress yes

but it's insanely faster than getting a perfect team through overworld for example

[delicate shuttle]

I think its best to use a simple example.

In 2023, League of Legends generated over $2.5 billion in revenue, maintaining its status as one of the highest-grossing video games globally. This impressive revenue is primarily driven by in-game purchases such as skins, champions, and other cosmetic items that enhance the gaming experience without giving players a competitive advantage. Despite increasing competition in the gaming world, League of Legends has continued to be a massive success due to its robust player base, regular updates, and thriving esports scene.

I don't say we should aspire to take the crown from League or that it's realistic to become as big as them, but in general the more F2P users you have, the more revenue is coming in. It's easy for players to fall in love with this amazing IP and then they happily will want to spend on cosmetics or diving deeper into the space by getting involved with the "Pokemon side of things".

[minor grove]

man we aren't LOL, when we have iluvum game like lol than we can create TFT like lol with fan base

[hot sonnet]

Agree very much with this - ultimately it's going to come down to monetising f2p arena via skins, whether indirectly through players owning illuvials through overworld and this equalling some form of arena skin, or directly by purchasing in the same way as would be seen in TFT.

I can't see any other way without affecting gameplay or attracting them in the first place given other F2P models in that space.

You've then got the bonus of having a fully ownership based leviathan mode which will be low player, high revenue play to win, whether through buying off the illuvidex or paying to capture them in Overworld.

It's actually quite a nice 1-2 punch

[kind jackal]

imo it's the wrong thing to try to monetize the autobattler too much when you have an rpg/mmo potential game mode that you can funnel people into and get your money there instead

[minor grove]

If you want to be web2 and web3
Rewards for Levi
Fun and skins for fair game ranked gauntlet -some times tournament or leaderboard with skins prize

[hot sonnet]

Then i'd agree, yes. More gameplay = more progression

[kind jackal]

then your game is never breaking 1k playerbase without bots

[hot sonnet]

I'd say this is the perfect set up.

The team should focus on the cosmetic element (as it should for Zero by the way).

[kind jackal]

honestly imo the best thing they could do is balance overworld in such a way that something like 500-1k hours spent into it guarantees you a full leviathan perfect stats team

[hot sonnet]

how so?

[kind jackal]

talking about leviathan gauntlet specifically (in current iteration)

[minor grove]

web3 games with the expensive team but the huge rewards, now axie calsic+axie oroginal+axie home world = 700k players every month and they don't have free mode

[kind jackal]

you can play axie on a 10 year old phone and they have half the playerbase happy to grind for 2$ a day that's where their edge is

[hot sonnet]

They need to mostly break the link between overworld and leviathan. Leviathan is not the end game for most people to enjoy an overworld experience.

It is for some granted, who want to sell their illuvials into a small player base leviathan, or who want to capture in order to play, but overworld needs a pokemon yellow style storyline gameloop.

That would bring in the numbers they need

[pastel barn]

And how many of those are scholars?

[desert magnet]

The worst thing they could do is devalue people's hard work. Illuvium already faced a massive wave of negative feedback when they introduced simplifications at the end of the Airdrop season. It's important to appreciate those who put in a lot of effort, not go against them.

[kind jackal]

that work is worthless with a 50 humans playerbase

[hot sonnet]

Leviathan will always value people's hard work

[minor grove]

a lot but i wait the same there - scholars and pro gamer and i can rent my illuvs for them and buy new

[kind jackal]

leviathan currently is straight up just an extraction race until they realize it's pointless to put any more prizes into it

[minor grove]

u can play ranked gauntlet without 2$ and earn a lot ILV)

[kind jackal]

ye on a pc

[pastel barn]

Decent pc

[minor grove]

all AAA games on PC

[kind jackal]

cuz axie's AAA

[minor grove]

i hope we have mobile next year for arena too

[pastel barn]

With this pace we can hope for 5 years

[hot sonnet]

leviathan playerbase will always be a much smaller % than ranked arena

[minor grove]

yeap)

[minor grove]

play ranked what problem )

[kind jackal]

that's fine, but that number needs to still be high enough to fill queues, and i keep saying there's not even enough teams caught/fused yet to do that

[hot sonnet]

I don't disagree there - it will take time for people to build up teams

you have the issue of it being very difficult to balance a play to win autobattler. It will work best when players all have very good teams

[kind jackal]

not really, you just never balance with leviathan in mind

[minor grove]

actually, I don't see a problem with 2 these modes
we don't need to decrease stats etc
you want to earn and have fun - buy, catch better illuvs and spend a month for up, do fuse. OW players will find best illuvs for you or catch it himself in iluv
you have fun, skins and small prizes and skin - play ranked gauntlet

but if you are greedy and do not want to invest in the project, do not want to invest in the decks, pump lvl up, but also want to bite off a piece of the rewards where people invest in the ecosystem so that Ilyuvium continues to develop - it is better not to write and do not look in this levi mode. If you want to have an average team and you do not like average prizes for this in levi, but want to be only in the top - do not write about it, if you do not invest anything, relax and just have fun in Ranked Mode. Now there will be 50 of us, tomorrow there will be those who want to be here and there will be 100 of us, then 1000, then 10000 and these 10000 will make 80% of all revenue in-game and covered money for development

good stats are not an indicator of winning in everything, and with average stats you can beat those who play badly

[hot sonnet]

Again, I agree on this to a certain extent - if Overworld was as good as it could be, you wouldn't need to go hard on monetisation on arena.

I say this as loudly as possible. Making a fantstic overworld storyline arc that is as accesible from a hardware standpoint as possible is the be all and end all tbh

It's there staring us all in the face - we just need to get over this idea of 'ownership' being the whole gameloop as soon as possible.

It's a bonus for ownership to allow for Leviathan mode, but it screws up gameplay if you try and shoehorn it into every game mode.

The 3 games can have interlinking elements but give us a gameplay loop that finishes within a storyline arc in overworld, alongisde the gameplay loop that finishes with leviathan arena

[whole cypress]

I've been thinking along these lines as well. My own thoughts were related to the AS cap now at 250... this is much better than when AS could go infinite.

Same issue in current Leviathan. So, what if we gave a hard cap at the top end? Perfect Illuvials will still benefit from improved performance between the starting point and the hard cap. But, once you reach the cap - it's a level field. I really like this idea... because stats matter, they matter a lot, but can be capped at a percentage like you say 5-10% feels very healthy. a 10% advantage for whity will probably always be insurmountable, but if I can narrow that to like 8 or 9% by putting together a strong team, but not as good as his? Well, that allows for me to win occasionally due to the RNG in the game and maybe me playing better than expected and him making uncharacteristic mistakes. In current setup I think I lose 100 out of 100. And my team is very, very good, relatively speaking.

I have been sleeping a little lately on Leviathan because the current Leviathan mode is not fun for me at all. I think everyone (nearly) sees this. Love the solution of introducing some type of cap or governor similar to the AS cap.

[kind jackal]

you're thinking of it wrong, max stats max level is the level playing field, if you have them you don't have an advantage, just that if you don't have them you have a disadvantage

[wise harbor]

I aggre with this opinion, i think for now it’s better to choose 1 of the mode instead all of them, since the player base of the arena is not to many, but for the future update when player base on gauntlet are growth many people already build they team the leviathan mode should be the prioritize.

Example : after couple month of mobile version arena realase maybe that should bring a lot of player to the game ,i think the device is one of the problem because it’s gonna be great if arena can be played on mobile we can play it anywhere, i think at this era ,mobile version can bring a lot of people , except the game was super2 great than no need to do that.

[harsh verge]

In LoL? You play matches to earn currency which can be spent on champions in the game store. You can also earn chests and rewards that grant you champions or champion shards that can be converted into playable champions.

[hot sonnet]

For leviathan, you actually want a non-level playing field. As that incentivises people to either buy better illuvials off the market or go and catch them themselves. You want people to lose a game and go an empty their wallet trying to win the next one

but you're right in the sense that max everything is the level playing field, and it's up to people to people to get there

[plush hawk]

I share your thoughts Soda. We need to work on this and see where we land at.

[minor grove]

I'm not paraphrasing your words a little. @tepid cave spent a lot of money on fuse, buying and pumping levels, but I don't want to spend as much, but I want to feel comfortable against him. So let's squeeze the stats for him so that he does not get an advantage with the money spent in the game. @whole cypress And you do not want to spend as much as he does and be like whity, this will greatly help the economy, as he helped?
@plush hawk
illuvium team somehow plans to compensate players for cutting stats? Or we only know how to cut landowners, stakers, stats? Are you crazy, people who invest in the economy, you start cutting them?)

[hot sonnet]

I don't think a single mode is a good idea at all. There's a clear split between the web 3 camp and the f2p camp and if you try to please both, you'll please NEITHER and make things worse.

If you change leviathan so stats don't make as much of an impact, you've taken away their pure play to win mode, which a lot of people have spent good money preparing for and are patiently awaiting rewards.

If you try and keep an ownership enhancement in the f2p mode then you won't get people who want a level playing field playing. And you'll never have a chance to convert them to 'web 3' / 'ownership'.

Just keep both as they play to very different player bases. But decide on either gauntlet or ascendant to be leviathan/ownership and the other one is the ranked/f2p. That way you reduce the dilution of players across different modes.

Monetise F2P via skins/cosmetics and leviathan monetises via illuvidex fees and overworld play

I repeat just because it's really important - if you try and please both you'll please NEITHER

[kind jackal]

How does leviathan actually work, aren't max stats the same as the stats in non leviathan and everything non max stat is just lower?

[plush hawk]

Axeless, if we make Leviathan too oppresive, nbdy will want to play the game and your investments will be worthless.

[plush hawk]

We won't do a single mode.

[hot sonnet]

Nil I was responding to your post that suggested merging ranked and leviathan modes into a single mode.

Where am I going wrong?

[plush hawk]

It was a morning idea. Clearly merging the two things won't work.

I still think that the 5% and 5% split part makes sense in a way. Maybe with other percentages. I hear you all, we will try to find best compromise solution.

[hot sonnet]

Compromising is a concern. Remember if you try and please everyone, you please nobody.

Paz is right, if F2P isn’t like current F2P and you try and stronghorn ownership in and it means people get an advantage, it won’t work

Also I’d say, OW is a very different game type to arena - the overlap actually isn’t that high.

You need a game mode in arena that isn’t dependent on OW ownership, at least not from a gameplay standpoint (cosmetic is fine) because people should be able to come to an arena game mode that stands alone.

Not all the games and game modes have to have blockchain linking them together.

And you could say well they don’t have to play OW, you could buy. Well that puts up a paywall again immediately and nobody plays anyway

That’s the last I’ll say 😀

Food for thought for the team

[minor grove]

we have only 5 or 10 places in leaderboard in the levi? or we have 1000 places in levi?

@plush hawk ppl can take any places accoding they decks and skill or i amnot right?

now it looks ppl spend 200$ in deck and wnat be top 1 or top 10

top 5 good place, top 50 good place

[desert magnet]

@plush hawk @minor grove To say I'm surprised would be an understatement. Time and again, Illuvium devalues players' efforts.

One season:
We painstakingly collect Illuvials to get an Airdrop?
Here, have dark holo Illuvials that COMPLETELY devalue the previous work of players.

Another season:
We go through the hard process of catching Illuvials for the Airdrop?
Here’s a scanner for Illuvials in the final days, just to devalue players' efforts.

Now:
We play Leviathan, spend precious hours of our lives, spend our hard-earned money to climb the leaderboard.
But let’s give you a measly 5-10% so those who did NOTHING don’t feel too upset. Sure, why not.

Seriously, this is beyond acceptable. I've spent years on this project and time after time I see the game being casualized. I've already heard from the guys multiple times: "Why are you grinding so hard at the start of the season? Just wait 1-2 weeks, they'll make it easier."

I thought Leviathan was untouchable. A place for whales and grinders. But no, another disappointment here. Illuvium is catering to the lazy masses who aren’t that invested in the project. Illuvium doesn’t value those who have spent years and money on it.

[hot sonnet]

It was just Nil’s personal opinion - not the teams

I don’t think the team are realistically going to change leviathan after everyone has put so much time and money into it

[minor grove]

they think coz if somebody spend on decks with 50$ cant beat whity with 20k$ investment and will be on 30 place on leaderborad - its not fair and this unfair man doesn;t want up illuves and collect decks

[plush hawk]

Winnie, nobody said 5%-5% is a thing.

We want whales and hardcore investors to flex in Leviathan. But in order to flex, they gotta have people. If we make it so an illuvial is 3x stronger than usual, the odds of Leviathan gaining traction are very low cause of far too much oppresion and even unfun mechanics.

If we make it so that illuvials are noticeably stronger but there is actual competition, then game is on and your dedicated time will have made sense.

Regardless, this are just discussions that help me understand everyone's perspectives to improve my insight.

As Ejs says, it was just my opinion as a player. But my opinion now is my broader than before thx to all your inputs. So let's keep this constructive 🙂

Thank you!

[plush hawk]

Of course not, but imagine that we make illuvials so strong that even an ape is capable of winning top #1 in Gauntlet. That wouldn't be fun, make sense, and would kill any possibility for Leviathan. The key here is finding a value that makes owners noticeably stronger but also opens a breach for reasonable competition. We will find that. But please always be constructive, it's the best way!

[minor grove]

that is, investors/players who invested the most in the game should not take high prizes, they should be punished, pushed to the bottom, because it is hard for someone to level up Pokemon and collect a deck? I am right understand?

[feral plank]

i come every day and grind exp for my team 12-14 hours, in hope i can make competitive team and be over people who don't care about stats and lvl. i'm do it, while have time, before LB and tournaments start
everyone can prepare theyr team - buy good stats, play OW to get lvl. this mod - Leviathan Gauntlet about how good you can play in other mods/how you can prepare your team.
this mode about how market can alive. people go in OW to catch good stats - other ppl go to market buy good stats.
About big difference with common players and whales - not need buy 300% illuvial - just buy 200% best stats, not need be whale to get it.
Then you go and get lvl 50 - it's take 2 days for full team. so - you can spend 200$ and 2 days and be competitive.
but if you see - you can grind more and become stronger, just get more lvl - it's motivate you play more, to get more from tournaments/LB.
If i see - i need grind 2 week from lvl 50 to 60 and it's give me 1% of stats - i'l stop do this, no reason. but all of this doable atm, just need play, not seat and cry about whity have x50 lvl60 illuvials

[minor grove]

if a monkey wins in gauntlet levi, buy such a monkey or go to the first stage in OW, pump lvl up and you will have the same one

[hot sonnet]

So your concern is if top level illuvials are so much stronger and only a few have them then there will be few playing leviathan - makes sense.

The intent is to keep the gap between base level illuvials and top level illuvials a bit closer to ensure broader accessibility/competition?

[plush hawk]

No

[kind jackal]

one thing that nobody's taking into account is that illuvium has never set an illuvial price, if you pay tens of thousands of $ u might have just overpaid and the devs are under no obligation to pay you back more just because you did that

[plush hawk]

Exactly. The more competition, the higher the demand, the more valuable the illuvials, the more money you make.

In the end, the best way you get rich is if the game is competitive and fun. Of course you will have a significant advantage if you have strong illuvials. But finding the right balance maximizes players, game success, and your roi.

[minor grove]

ok. constructive dialogue. If I go to the market now and want to assemble a strong team with the best stats. Will I get a discount for this, a special bonus or a buff that will help me win a levi? Are all sellers and buyers not in the same conditions? Or are the prices too high for them and for me fna dex with a discount?

[feral plank]

it's big difference betwine lvl 10 with x5 30% stats and lvl60 x6 50%. but when you get lvl 50 good stats you can fight against lvl60 full stats. but you have to work to build your team, if you come without preparation it's 2 way how you feel it:

1. everyone have strong teams, they all pay thousend $, no way for me play it
2. or you think how to improve and become better
   all depend of mind set

[kind jackal]

if 50 people tried to do this right now they wouldn't have enough supply

[desert magnet]

@plush hawk Friend, I respect you for your work and everything you do. I don’t want to come across as rude or overly emotional, but the recent actions of the team (devaluing through dark holo and the scanner) have genuinely disappointed many players.

I’m just sharing my opinion now, based on years of experience with this project. You should never devalue players' hard work — that is a guaranteed losing strategy.

Please keep the power balance in Leviathan as it is now.
If a player wants to learn the game — there’s a casual mode for that.
If a player wants to demonstrate skill and earn leaderboard rewards — there’s a ranked mode.
If a whale or hardcore player wants to invest a lot of money and time to try to recoup their investments — there’s the Leviathan mode for that.

The fact that most players can’t get into the Top 10 of Leviathan is absolutely fine. They haven’t invested as much money, time, or effort. There are lower positions on the Leviathan leaderboard for them.

I also want to address the trust of investors in game assets. Trust is something hard to earn and easy to lose.

• Investments in Illuviatars — the market is dead.
• Investments in land — the market is half-dead.
• Investments in Illuvials — this is the last stronghold of trust.
  Once again, I don’t want to seem rude in any way. I just want to be heard.
  Respectfully.

[minor grove]

yeap but sense in another

[plush hawk]

I dont get exactly what you are saying brother. One thing is for sure, we as a team want to see our investors rich.

To achieve that, we need to find a balance that makes owners of strong illuvials very very strong but not invincible. Of course if you play vs smdy with 0 assets you will crush him, but if we narrow the power level gap, it will encourage more people to jump in, and then your OP illuvials you have acquired with so much time, sweat and effort will be even more valuable.

[harsh verge]

Where exactly are we at in trying to narrow the gap? Are we talking about adjusting bonus stat intervals?

[minor grove]

so why change anything? if he has a weak шдгм he goes to pump him up, fuses or buys on the market. as we do. or other players do not want to do this, do not want to spend money and effort on better stats, so let them be content with not the top 10, not the top 50, as in all other games like web 2 and web 3

[hot sonnet]

I think this makes some sense.

I’d also say that not all leviathan players are trying to turn a profit. If you’re trying to turn a profit you’re selling to leviathan players.

Leviathan is a about paying the big bucks to show off that you can win it all!

Not everyone is looking for a monetary ROI.

[minor grove]

who has a strong team and knows how to play, will take a high prize, who has a strong team, but does not know how to play will take a low place, who has a strong team and knows how to play, will lose to the opponent due to skills or their slightly worse stats, but will take not the top 5, but the top 7. Is this bad?

[feral plank]

i spend 0 for my deck, but i can win and be in top-10 in Leviathan mod.

[minor grove]

coz y work hard and up lvl your iluvs

[desert magnet]

@minor grove @feral plank I fully agree with your point of view.

[hasty crow]

4el na modere washe ne tut

[echo dove]

My bad @feral plank

[pallid veldt]

Please keep it english in public chanels

[feral plank]

yes. and everyone can do it. just need motivation for it. look for strong opponent and think how you can beat him

[hasty crow]

Sure mate

[hot sonnet]

Presumably you’re saying that’s a negative

[plush hawk]

Nope, this makes sense

[feral plank]

? i spend 2 month of hard work, but 0 money. it's you choice - play hard or spend much. i just show it's different way be strong

[hot sonnet]

How have you played for 2 months and got a good deck?

[feral plank]

if you need coaching, we can talk about it

[hot sonnet]

I don’t need coaching - I’m just trying to understand from game design perspective

[feral plank]

it's like in every MMO - whanna become strong - play more, learn more, improve yourself

[plush hawk]

Thank you for this very well written message Winnie.

I respect you a lot as well. I take notes.

So you would like to keep Illuvials 200% stronger in stats rather than 50% stronger even if with 50% you will anihilate everyone regardless.

[minor grove]

Thank you. We must motivate players to collect good stats, motivate them to pump up their Iluvials experience, this is positive for the entire economy. Yes, now the first tournaments/leader board will take the prize money from those who know how play and who have a strong team, but by the next one, players will start to catch up and pump up their iluvs levels. If they get a good iluvs in the OW, they won’t run to sell it, they’ll keep it and pump level up to achieve more in levi. And for some time, whity and other guys will occupy the top 5, but sooner or later other guys will catch up with them and there will be competition.

We shouldn't lower stats or make strong players weaker. We should show that pumped levels are stronger than stats , pumped stats are stronger than only stats, Good player better stats - good player and a strong team is higher place in leadership

If you don't have top team you can take 10 place in leaderboard - its very good [laces and take part of rewards

[plush hawk]

Strong Illuvials, with high lvl and very good traits need to be fucking power houses.

[minor grove]

yeap its work everything in sport, web2 in any games, web 3 games. MMO RPG

[plush hawk]

But instead of 3000 Hp having 9000 Hp is an issue for balancing and also for game integrity.

If the overall power of an illuvial is 50% stronger than a lvl 1 0 traits illuvial, the player with ownership will MELT the opponent.

[minor grove]

but you want that this 3000 hp win?

[harsh verge]

You know, in high level ranked play for LoL, a 300g difference in farming to have a cloth armor advantage over your opponent can actually be very influential

[minor grove]

If you can't lift heavy weights in your gym, do you kick out all the strong people who have been going to the gym for 10 years? Or do you hire a trainer, buy protein and never miss a workout?

[feral plank]

why someone without his own deck come to Leviathan mode? if you come to play this mode - you know that need your own deck, need get prepared.
if you come with 3000 hp against 9000hp - it's your own mistake, go back and prepare - then come again

[minor grove]

almost ein very games - best armor, best weapons, best heroes will have an impact. that why we have 2 ranked gauntlet and Levi

[harsh verge]

Sure, but we're talking about how influential the differences are between the best armor/weapons and the second best armor/weapons. Should the best armor/weapons always win especially in a PvP environment?

[plush hawk]

No! But if a unit has 4500 HP and 50% more attack damage, attack speed, resistances, and OP than a 3000 HP unit, you will win 100% regardless

[hasty crow]

Yes it should, because it is more expensive than the second one is

[feral plank]

go and play OW to get better illuvial, grind lvl to them and make Best

[harsh verge]

So where does that leave the skilled player who outplays their opponent?

[feral plank]

ranked mode to test skill.
Leviathan - test skill and your preparation

[minor grove]

what lesson do we learn from this, look for the best stats and level up the iluvs, and don't tell me that I found and leveled up that it's too strong. its pisitive work for economy or am i wrong?

[plush hawk]

For sure brother. My point is that with a 50% advantage on every single illuvial and synergy, you will shatter every unprepared player's dreams regardless

[minor grove]

it depends on game and mechanics and skills ofc + some luck

[feral plank]

then go and prepare. go and play more OW. if no - 6 place is yours, whant get top 4-1. make homework

[hasty crow]

Do you understand that if team decide to decrease stat/lvl impact it will kill market completely

[minor grove]

no ofc buy only stronger iluv for levi. you spent a lot in Genshin for what? Stronger weapons and stronger heroes? this the same

[feral plank]

agree - we have 100k+ useles illuvias now, and we don't have burn mechanics. market already around dead, and only stats make it alive.
but if difference of stats will be lower - is it any reason go and play OW?

[sinful maple]

Hi @plush hawk I don't really agree with this proposal, because it affects not only the Gauntlet mode. It affects both the open world and the marketplace. Too little difference will lead to the fact that people will lose motivation to play in the open world, because it will be possible to assemble a deck for $ 20 and play quietly. And this, in turn, will affect land owners, etc ... I don't think the economy is designed for this. In my opinion, the difference should be noticeable, it motivates everyone to try and play more, and spend more money on buying a deck. I think satisfied investors will bring new people, not cheap illuvials. We're not in web2.

[harsh verge]

Yes, but not every character I spent money on is going to be the best even if they're C6. Some f2p 4* weapons were also BiS for certain characters

[plush hawk]

Understood! 👍

[minor grove]

what's the lesson? let him go and prepare for battle, or should all the ready bend for the unready?

[minor grove]

i have done a lot of fuse too and only 1 is strong stats other 10 is shit

[harsh verge]

So I'm wondering then, is Levi supposed to be the eSport game mode or casual?

Are we making Leviathan the whale only mode but for a niche group of players? I want to understand this

[hasty crow]

Whole this conversation is absurd
Leviathan mode is made ESPECIALLY for the people that have money/time to create their team
If you don't have money, you are not deprived - go and play Ranked
What's the problem? The problem is that some guys are soooo lazy that they wanna come with 0 investment in ❗WEB3❗game and loot money for free and the team is trying to sit on two chairs because they don't wanna lose this players.

[minor grove]

Levi for everyone who has iluvs but if you don't have good stats or don't pump levels - its will be hard to take higer place

[hasty crow]

I didn't want to offend anyone, that is just the truth

[queen ravine]

It seems to me that this thread is not intended to be about Leviathan. Leviathan is not mentioned in the initial post.

[harsh verge]

So this is just about removing casual modes and ascendant. So what's left? F2P ranked and Levi gauntlet?

[minor grove]

yeap somebody tell us that we so strong in goods stats in levi so need to nerf us)

[thick oxide]

Agree 100% about this.
Players just want extract with 0 investment it is funny.. this is not a charity game, so if you dont want to invest go and play ranked games in gauntlet and save money for the next month to invest in a team otherwise if you extract all ofc you are not going to have for a decent team to play Levi why? Because you dont invest.

[harsh verge]

How did this get so heated about changes to Leviathan 🤣

[minor grove]

ppl spending monthes to up levels, a lot money fo fuse and bought best stats

[radiant phoenix]

we dont need cut % of stats 😡

[harsh verge]

Ok, got it, whale lives matter people. Leave Leviathan alone.

[harsh verge]

Was that what this was about? Cutting the stats?

[minor grove]

for all i think but if you want to take highest place - yeap it hard

[radiant phoenix]

I dont wanna talking with you, looking at your previous messages, I see that you don't understand anything at all

[harsh verge]

Lol, ok. Sorry I wasn't able to follow along from the start.

[hasty crow]

Yeah. In some people's opinions stats/lvl make too much impact in Leviathan (that is true but it's the feature of Leviathan)

[desert magnet]

@plush hawk Let’s imagine a situation. I was given a Ferrari to test drive, and I really liked the car. I paid for it. But when it was delivered, I got a Mercedes instead.
They tell me, “Friend, this is a great car. It’s fast, comfortable. You’ll outrun most drivers in it.”
But I paid for a Ferrari…

This is a similar situation here. We played Leviathan. We understood how important the stats are. We paid for good Illuvials, we invested our time in leveling them up. But now we’re being offered to consider a Mercedes...

[plush hawk]

Thats a beautiful analogy Winnie 💯🤝🏻

[thick oxide]

First of all i respect you @plush hawk you have been always envolved with the community listen everyone of us and trying to balance the game i did not red this before i'm not sure if the word it is dissapointed or something similar but its close to be:

About the main goal of the game to "on board" Web2 players i think first would be a good idea to focus on the small and actual base player that we have... with that said there are amount of people that actual is leveling and preparing for the "Leviathan" (now i don't know if the mode will come) maxing their Illuvials to level 60 and trying to buy the most perfect stats and there are not so many people prepared why? Because they are playing other games while other are doing the hard work here trying to level up their illuvials, since there are no airdrops missions to take free money they are not here but only a few the loyalty ones keeps here.

Let me ask you, why would you keep rewarding the people who is not in the game atm? and not the one who are $pending time and money?
with this said:

1. I agree with you 100% that the value of the price floor illuvials will increase (with no stats or no good stats)
2. I'm 100% sure that the illuvials with good stats/perfect stats/level 60 they are not going to add value.

There is no way that the players will spend money for a 5% advantage of the game they will stick with the 5% of "owning" all illuvials with no stats only to have the 5%, and they will earn more money than the invest and guess what. -> Menu/Withdraw Funds.

I don't see actualmodel as bad i mean if i am f2p player what can i do?

• First months i play on ranked games (to climb in the leaderboard and win prizes maybe not high prizes but i will earn something if i dedicate my time on my pc to the game)
  Then i will think, i can invest some $ and start buying my illuvials with good stats or i will extract everything to my wallet and keep playing on leaderboard
  (The same that could happen with "new mode")

[plush hawk]

I respect you and hear you all, MaGGic, you know that. I 100% get your point and we really need you guys to be vocal on your positions.

[thick oxide]

What attracts players sadly is "money" and for a competitive scene it should have high prizes in order to call the atraction of the players.. what players?

1.- Call the atraction of the web3 dead games.
Start onboarding all the players from web3 while the team keep "polishing" the game
once the game full polished with some unique features the team could think in onboard the web2 players but not before as Illuvium #1 Web3 game.

I feel part of the project and i know if the balances are good we are all good, but i think being so ambitious with "onboarding web2 players" or have that in mind as a short term is maybe wrong because this will take time and should not be a priority right now but in the other hand we have from all the web 3 players maybe some % that wants to spend time playing because the majority of web3 players just want do a click wait the cooldown and move to the next hyped web3 game to extract the first months and then bucle so its a challenge yes it is.

Maybe the season 3 could be a good test to give numbers to the staff (if it was worth to give medium or high rewards for f2p):

Let's say the season 3 is 75% for leviathan gauntlet and 25% for ranked games maybe 50% and 50% so the players who dont invest don't complain (From the rewards that have been announced)

So maybe do a system to track the next month to see how many players "invest" some of them rewards, because at the end of the day if the players are not investing the money keep wasting with that said it is better to have quality than quantity.

Sorry if something sounds mandatory it is not.. English is not my main language and i'm not using a translator or something like that so hopefully it is good 👍

[plush hawk]

All good sir.

We both share same background language so I get what you say hahaha 😄

[young cobalt]

bro, remove Ascendant asap. the sooner you do it the better.
once again, Gauntlet was literally made because Ascendant mode was NOT THE WAY. so why are we even keeping it in now lol.

outside of this, tell me the top streamed game rn that is 1v1.. lol. good luck.

[fading cloak]

https://tenor.com/view/chingawhat-machete-teloresumo-gif-13273353

[lament fossil]

I don't really have data, don't know how many people play ascendant, but i assume the ones that play it, do it because they like ascendant and not gauntlet. By removing ascendant you are not getting gauntlet players, you are losing illuvium players.

[young cobalt]

this is bad because than you cant compete with TFT as you wont have a Free To Play "tft" game in illuvium.

and if were separating leviathan and regular like we have now, theres no point in trying to make leviathan illuvials closer to base illuvials, as its a completely different mode, youre not even meant to play in leviathan without lev illuvials.

[stoic vigil]

I just want to say something. I like both, ascendant and gaunlet, but I don't have the time to play both. I don't understand why people wouldn't like gaunlet if is the same type of game, an auto battle, just with different dynamics. I think that will be worth to do experiments and look what happens. If things don't go well we enable again ascendant and ok, nothing has happened.

[plush hawk]

Yes

[empty plover]

The Gauntlet's concept to attract new players without requiring prior knowledge or Illuvials seems promising. However, it doesn't directly contribute to Illuvium's economy beyond potentially bringing in new users. How is Illuvium's economy faring today? Well, since the game's launch, the in-game fuel has been depreciating daily, with the price decreasing for 60 consecutive days. This is expected until the game has a definitive end goal, such as tournament prizes, leaderboards, etc., to give players a reason to play and invest.

Currently, the most significant contributors to Illuvium's economy are players farming for Illuvials with the best stats in the overworld or purchasing them from the marketplace to prepare for arena tournaments. Many of these players are not particularly interested in the Gauntlet as it's essentially a simpler version of the arena. So, how will these dedicated players feel now that the arena is being disabled? Especially when the price of Illuvium and fuel is decreasing, along with player morale.

By restricting core users' access to the arena, you risk alienating a significant portion of your player base, which could lead to a decline in demand for Illuvials and in-game fuel. This could potentially drive prices even lower and negatively impact the overall health of the Illuvium economy.

[stoic vigil]

Captured Illuvials are used in Leviathan. In Arena Leviathan you use the illuvials you owe, there is a Leviathan mode in Gaunlet too, so it doesn't change anything in Illuvium economy.

[stone rune]

First of all, I'm sorry about my English, since I'm using Google Translate.

I share the idea of ​​attracting new players and placing a single mode, since that way the players would not be so dispersed, but I do not share the idea that the stats do not have the same value that they have today, "we are" many people who have dedicated a lot of hours to the game to be prepared for the next season and to be able to finish in the tops, it is true that there is a big gap between the players who have dedicated a lot of time and the new players, but it is because we have dedicated that time that they have not in order to have that "advantage" if you want to put it that way, and with what you are proposing you are literally telling us that everything we have invested whether it is money or time does not have the same value anymore, I share the idea of ​​attracting new players, but you cannot literally leave aside the people who are moving the market currently and tell them that everything they invested will no longer have value, because you are making people feel frustrated and decide to leave the game, I feel that it is not the path that should be taken, if you want people to start entering in the game put a leaderboard so people can see how much money they can get if they invest and people will say wow, if I invest I don't know what 400 dollars I can be in the top 100 and get 700 or 800 dollars, also it doesn't only depend on the stats of the illuvials, if the person doesn't know how to play or doesn't understand the increases, anyone who has their illuvials at a decent level without being "perfect" can beat someone who has them at level 60, then new players have options to reduce that gap, but they also can't expect to agree with a measure that harms players who have dedicated time and money, just so there is a "possibility" that new players come in, I think that is not the way to go...

[minor grove]

I also think it will become much easier when you introduce a delegation system, where we can delegate lands and our iluvials and everyone will be able to choose the iluvial they lack with any stats for the season. No money to buy - rent much cheaper with experience and good stats

Don't want to rent - buy, fuse and pump levels in OW
We will have a lot of good stats iluvs on the market for buying and renting then (t5-t4 a lot)
So I don't see ay reason to change now something coz better to develop some functions for it and everything will smooth and everybody will happy
@plush hawk what do y think?

[tepid cave]

I have spent money and time purchasing Illuvials with good stats and leveling up.

However, it is meaningless if the number of players does not increase and the game is not viable, so I personally think that the top priority should be "how to increase the number of players" when reorganizing the game modes.

Even if there is a cap on leveling up and stat adjustments, or at worst it becomes just about unlocking skins, I think that is the right answer if it means more people play Illuvium.

Personally, I might get mad and stop playing if leveling up and stats became completely irrelevant to gaining an advantage in the game, but if it increases the number of players and revitalizes the game, I definitely think it's the right choice.

That said, I can see a future where I continue playing despite being angry.🤣

Thank you as always for all your suggestions. @plush hawk

[hot sonnet]

I don’t think you quite understand what was proposed. I don’t think anybody is suggesting devaluing in any way the work people have done so far to prep teams for levitathan.

But the proposal was about how wide the gap should be between super rare, high stat illuvials and perhaps more mid tier type illuvials.

The view was that if there’s a huge gap then fewer people will build teams and pay to try and compete.

If there’s a closer gap, it keeps more people involved and therefore revenues higher.

Makes total sense tbh.

My main issue has been any suggestions that gameplay in non leviathan modes should in any way be affected by illuvial ownership. Cosmetic differences fine, but not gameplay difference

Just thinking out loud here for the team’s sake - interested to see what others think too.

I don’t think many leviathan players will like the idea of rented illuvials, as per the Polemos idea.

If I were someone who had dedicated my time and money to building or buying a team, the last thing I’d want is someone with great skill coming in just for the main tournament, renting a great team after expending little money and no time and winning the tournament

I appreciate that it aids in accessibility, but would that not be considered unfair for most players?

[minor grove]

who said a little bit of money) It depends on tier and levels. For example, you have a lot of iluvs but don't have 5 tier - but I have and I estimate this iluv with good stats 100$ in one season. You rent - earn 1k and its good for both. You can rent again or stay owner new iluvs. Its option opens the door for a lot of options - sell, rent or play by myself. Everybody wants to have full stats coz can rent or sell higher or create amazing decks. It does not impact ppl who have iluvs with these stats. the price oh those iluvs will be always high. New players always have the option to collect low-tier and rent a few for their deck high-tier and feel comfortable on levi mode.
The rent option will start to increase the economy coz a lot of ppl will run in ow

[minor grove]

i agree. stats shouldn't have an impact for other modes. only levi

[whole cypress]

Renting Illuvials is totally fine.

In any competitive endeavor basically ever, better equipment is good. You can buy, borrow or rent that equipment. This is normal. No difference here.

[brisk cove]

Proposal: Temporarily disable Casual and Ascendant modes in Illuvium to focus players on Gauntlet mode for faster matchmaking, better feedback, and to prioritize Gauntlet’s competitive development.

Community Feedback:

Concerns: Some players enjoy Ascendant and fear losing it would alienate a dedicated fan base. Others worry removing modes could decrease player diversity and adoption.
Mixed Opinions on Casual Mode: Many support removing Casual mode to improve queue times and streamline competitive focus. Some suggest keeping it available as a practice mode.
Competitive Scene: Emphasis on Gauntlet is seen as vital, yet many feel Ascendant could have long-term potential with rebalancing. There’s also debate over the necessity of Leviathan, seen by some as a barrier for players without high-level Illuvials.
Communication: Players request clear timelines and expectations to better prepare for upcoming seasons and competitive events
Overall, the community is divided, valuing a streamlined Gauntlet experience but hesitant to lose Ascendant, which they believe adds unique value.

[latent crown]

ty chatGPT 🙏

[brisk cove]

chatGPT is goat

[rustic carbon]

If ascendant is paused and leaderboards will be only for leviathan and f2p then prizepool structure will make a very big difference in how people will perceive leviathan for now atleast in my circle and from what i see in general people look at levi and say it's a whale p2w scam but if they can buy from marketplace illuvials who have -10/20 one stat and at a decent price and fight for middle pack in levi thinking they can recover investment in 2-3 seasons and with the option to play in f2p aswell then it will make sense

For now this eco kinda makes sense for people that are already in it and 0 sense for people outside of it, one attribute that axie because i see people talked about axie is that it made sense for anyone outside of eco to take a risk and buy a team to compete or farm for slp, for now in illuvium you need way too much money for only perfects and insane amount of time to lvl them all up to 60 if levi prizepool structure makes sense for more people then a path from f2p to leviathan will exist

[limber forge]

20 people up voting the idea of keeping Ascendant open isn't enough to justify it imo.

[plush hawk]

I was just confirming their view, not saying this is what would happen 🙂

[lament fossil]

Genuine question. I think i am missing the point. How does putting ascendant on pause helps the game?
Pausing ascendant does not mean we get gauntlet players. It means we are losing illuvium players.
Does keeping ascendand online means extra resources towards that? If that so, i can understand the reasoning. But if takes no effort in keeping it online, why does it matter?

[harsh river]

+1 for remove casual but keep ascendent

[latent crown]

why keep ascendant for now if it's getting reworked?

[harsh river]

Just to avoid alienating the people who don't like Gauntlet but still want something to play. I guess timelines matter in terms of when a revamped version can be expected (maybe was mentioned above but i'm behind). Gauntlet is great, don't get me wrong, but some people think it's too fast paced and they just want to play what they want to play.

If it takes resources to keep online in its current state then that's a different story imo, but if the concern here is just pushing playerbase to gauntlet to improve matchmaking times, then i don't think this decision will have the desired effect anyways.

[pallid veldt]

it's not just about queu times i feel, but also about balancing, feature updates etc. which will be quicker, likely better tested and easier to do if it comes to balancing if devs can focus on 1 mode instead of multiple modes with multiple submodes.

i rather see 1 mode being brought to a superb state as fast as possible and decreasing queue time than develop and support many of them trying to cater to many audiences

[harsh river]

yeah that's fair too - do we have data on how many DAU we have per game mode? I'm sure they do but has that been shared with the community?

[latent crown]

sadly no...

[harsh river]

hard to make an informed decision without DAUs, if the council has this data i'd trust their judgement on it then <@&814435151307866142>

[lament fossil]

So no one can answer this?
My logic fails me.
Just ignore the game if you want to focus on gauntlet
I still dont understand how letting ascendant alone can be detrimental to gauntlet

You are basically saying to people that like ascendant "i dont care you like ascendant. Go play gauntlet"

[brisk cove]

I think they are more worried that a new player will hop into an Ascendent queue and sit there not finding a game and get frustrated and never come back. Instead of deleting Ascendent I suggest they make the gauntlet mode button bigger ( simple UI change) and place it in the middle so new players are more likely to click Gauntlet.

[lament fossil]

Thank you! Finally an explanation
But i don't think we have new players we should worry about at this point 😅

[summer agate]

Council has access to DAUs upon request. Right now there are 5x the amount of players in Gauntlet than Ascendant and we've done no advertising, not connected to the airdrop so no rewards.

It's hard to tell with such small player numbers, but ascendant had about 60K people at it's peak and retention was at around 3%, Gauntlet is much, much higher. Once we introduce tournaments, leaderboard and rewards, it should increase even further.

Having Ascendant there is confusing for newcomers because they usually try that, and having such small player numbers is creating a negative experience. Gauntlet you can get a game in around 3-5 mins.

But I actually don't mind the idea of making it somewhat hidden, so only the hardcore players know where to find it. However, we're going to rework it next year and I think retention will be much higher once we do, so that is why I'm in favour of temporarily shutting it off for now, and relaunching it once it's better.

[limber forge]

I do like the idea of walking up to another ranger in sanctum and having the option to challenge them to a 1v1. Perhaps this is how we access ascendant instead of what we have now.

[pastel barn]

Well waiting for multiplayer feature would probably the same as removing it for a few months

[limber forge]

No doubt, but shifting away from ascendant being a competitive ranked mode to a more social 1v1 grudge match mode is fun imo

[lament fossil]

I remember when ascendant had leaderboard rewards for top 500 or so. Were alot of players and alot of fun. Good times

[summer agate]

What about walking up to a huddle of rangers and joining their gauntlet lobby o.O

[delicate shuttle]

Top 1000. The golden era 😄

https://tenor.com/view/dreamy-fresh-prince-goals-wish-wishful-gif-4860128

[mellow rune]

If your player base is low giving people less options to play is going to attract more players to a game mode they may or may not want to play is the logic that I am hearing. Is this accurate?

[rustic carbon]

Yep that's exactly what it is, pausing ascendant pushes a player to either chosse a p2w mode where you have to spend alot of money and basement dweller levels of time to level them up or f2p where you don't really have to intereact with the ecosistem, for now people are trying to protect their investement without realizing they are hurting it there's no middle ground either own the best or don't own anything

[lament fossil]

Best argument 👆

[mellow rune]

Maybe if there was a way to increase stats of mid stat illuvials to closer resemble a full stat one ie a leveling system that increases stats higher than 50% i don't know maybe a way to get all stats as high as a 60% boost but where could we get such a system 🤔

You have think about a new players goals in their time played if they aspire to be the best it should require a bit more than doing the bare minimum

If all they care about is playing ranked at bronze or silver rank than they don't need the best stat illuvials or to spend so many hours leveling everything to max level

In league of legends for instance if your goal is to play at challenger rank you would be better suited to counter pick and avoided getting getting countered by owning all of the champions instead of just owning the bare minimum ie 1 tank 1 ad carry one mid... I can't think of a single competitive game where doing the bare minimum in terms of time and/or $$ invested gets you the top rank

[rustic carbon]

Changing stats it's such a complex subject it's hard to do in writing and my problem is not with stats, stats can remain the same, my problem is with onboarding, ascendant filled a own to play gap in eco and that gap will be a very big problem and i can't see someone from f2p convert in leviathan considering they don't need to own a single nft

[mellow rune]

Which is why I don't think ascendant should be deactivated it has its purpose and offers a way to reach people interested in 1v1 type game play and it's unique in that there is not another game out there quite like it

[latent crown]

@plush hawk <@&1107754780744487002>
I have another suggestion to make besides removing ascendant.

I know it has been said that rewards should be 50/50 but I disagree.

The normal mode should have ZERO ILV rewards and these rewards should be focuses entirely on Leviathan. If players wanna have a shot at earning ILV they need to go play the Leviathan mode. If they just wanna play for fun like in web2 they go for the normal mode.

With this I'm not saying we don't make non-leviathan tournaments. On the contrary, I think tournaments should be based on skill and not on the wallet size.

But the ILV leaderboards should be for those who invest in the ecosystem.

[lament fossil]

You are going to cause a storm
I think it is a good idea since we get rid of airdrop farmers.
Only people invested would get rewarded

[desert magnet]

Friend, please tag me as soon as the proposal is published. I fully support it.

[latent crown]

I've had this opinion from way back since I made the Beyond game pitch.

Back then there wasn't even a gauntlet F2P mode. And I was already ahead of time saying we needed a web2 F2P mode and a web3 with NFTs and rewards for every game we make.

[plush hawk]

Hey Filow! Thx for sharing your thoughts.

I don't know where the 50/50 thing came from, but it's certainly not official material.

Unofficially, I personally think that it only makes sense to reward a lot more those who invest in the ecosystem.

That being said, the reward distribution hasn't been made official yet so I can't say if it's going to be 100-0, 80-20, 60-40, etc.

Kieran will let us know when the time comes.

[latent crown]

good to know the 50/50 is only surface talk from the IMC and not an internal view.

[plush hawk]

The council is doing a great job, I love them.

However, until you hear it from Kieran, nothing is official.

[mellow rune]

In terms of stats would you say that they should be less significant than "skill"??

[plush hawk]

We want the best for the future of ownership in our ecosystem.

Assuming the player knows the basics, whoever has put effort, time and money to collect powerful illuvials should always win hard vs anyone without ownership.

[thick oxide]

Sorry Nil but there are plenty of player who put money, time to collect and prepare for a tournament that never exist. 50% leviathan stats. (and idc about money but i'm talking about the Hours)

[mellow rune]

U get that they should but will that be what actually happens when stats matter less than "skill"? Bots and scripts running the game with peak strategy will win out over any perfect stats illuvials with little to no barrier to entry if you diminish stats importance

[brisk cove]

I fully agree with this

[uncut moat]

As far as the current discussion goes, and from my perspective, 50/50 would be an initial setup anyways. The intent is always to adjust it over time based on data, especially towards larger rewards for ownership. But with any sort of marketing activation you start wide and then narrow it down later.

[inland latch]

You need to incentivize non-leviathan ranked and get them hooked. Then convert them to leviathan with bigger prize pool.

its easier to get people to try the game if its free much easier if its free and theirs prize incentive. Perhaps in the future we can 'defund' ranked and pour it all into leviathan once the game picks up but right now? Its not plausible.

[granite swift]

I would reward non-leviathan with fuel and other in-game assets to keep them playing in the game universe.

Rewarding players with real money won't help us creating a fun game. All those "players" for money will tell you how great the game is as long as they are making money. We are also far away from starting any kind of marketing effort. Leviathan is different and should be rewarded with ILV.

PLEASE gate Leviathan with ownership of at least 1 Illuvial. Don't ever let first time players enter Leviathan. They are just food for sharks/whales and will tell everyone how P2W Illuvium is.

[unique mesa]

Gated access is interesting, might be worth investigating.

There are two cons I see though. One is content videos on how you can't play this mode with out buying illuvials first. I could see Jaun easily exaggerating how "he spent 20$ buying illuvials and still got wrecked and its a stupid mode"

2 is we lose content of how high can you climb Leviathan with no illuvials. Now you could still do this by only buy one zero stat attipo , but I would imagine for the gate to be effective a player would need like 30 illuvials or so to actually make a difference in Leviathan

[granite swift]

You are right, this could make it even worse, because now they spent 10$ and still get wrecked.

It still needs to be solved though, because it makes Illuvium look really bad when someone spent maybe 500 $ on a few good Illuvials and still gets wrecked.

I am not against Leviathan, but it poses a huge risk.

Maybe all we need is ONE BIG button GAUNTLET RANKED and all other modes (Ascendant, Leviathan etc.) in a separate dialog with some warning messages. And while we are at it: Move OW also into the separate dialog as long as it is just P2W.

[unique mesa]

This is being discussed and there are some new UI/UX changes coming in the future to make the onboarding and game selection more streamlined and simple

[strange wigeon]

It is good to promote Gantlet Ranked all over and this is the best way to attract people.
I think the current Ranked should be released as an independent Web2Game.
Some people avoid it just because it is a Web3 Game.

I think a percentage of people who like web2 illuvium will be interested in the web3 version as well.

[patent hull]

@plush hawk please consider my idea when incorporating this https://discord.com/channels/760344898200666112/1301595727990095872

[plush hawk]

I think your analysis is very accurate. Saying that we have considered this would be an understatement 👍🏻

[patent hull]

Excellent 🫡

[latent crown]

to @uncut moat as well.
IMO I would NEVER start with a 50/50 as the initial setup knowing before hand that we wanna incentivize more the leviathan mode than the non-leviathan mode.

If there's one thing I know for sure is that it feels bad when we take things away that players previously had. They'll feel like they got nerfed (we should've learnt this lesson by now...).

And I'm not saying to never implement rewards for non-leviathan modes, what I'm saying is for now I would go 100% leviathan, and only after a while if/when we find it appropriate introduce some rewards for the non-leviathan modes.

[latent crown]

• "You need to incentivize non-leviathan ranked and get them hooked. "
  Does any web2 game has rewards to incentivize players playing their games? No... If you wanna incentivize players to play our game than make a kickass game that's fun and addicting.

• "its easier to get people to try the game if its free much easier if its free and theirs prize incentive. "
  I don't think we should even be rewarding those that just try the game and play a little. P2E models don't work we should know better by now with all that happened with other web3 games. Rewards for the non-leviathan mode should be only for the top players. Which means that basically no one will be getting rewards unless they're one of the best players, so that carrot on a stick doesn't really work that well.

[latent crown]

I think gating access is fine but only to higher leagues, you could play at bronze without limitations, but if you climb up to silver than you would need a minimum collection power to compete in that league.

and regarding your second point I doubt that type of content is even that meaningful.

[inland latch]

So ill try to address as best as I can.

Im fine with 50/50 in fact I suggested a bigger take on leviathan. As you said, if we want players make the game kickass fun and addicting which means it can be applicable to ranked and leviathan. why incentivize it in the first place?

Well heres the answer. Were not there yet. It can be sticky enough but not to the point that it can be viral and we get lods of players from the onset. You need to supplement this with the incentives. And were trying to get the numbers cause we need to utilize what we have to give labs more time to cook.

As mentioned, I have no issues in 'defunding' casual when we actually at a point that the game is as you say, kickass, fun, and addicting with the player numbers to boot.

So yes I agree with you that we incentivize leviathan but at the same time, we need to get people to want to play it by allowing them to try the non-leviathan and get incentives from it whether it be ILV, cosmetics, or whatnot. Get them hooked then get them more hooked in leviathan where the prizepool is bigger.

Following leaderboards and tournaments setup, I suggested that people 'qualify' from non-leviathan leaderboards and tournaments to get a ticket to the leviathan tournaments. This way they get to tryhard with the free version and once they qualify theyre incentivized to earn big but with the need of getting their own illuvials either through OW, DEX, or sponsored. This also addresses the concern of building up to leviathan vs rewarding only a handful of people who are leviathan 'ready' from the onset. You want to give new players to build their illuvials for leviathan rather than getting crapped on by those who already have perfect stat and max levels on day 1.

That being said, I also would like to see that we slowly build up our prizepools rather than throw a big number at it for 'marketing' impact. We already did that in preseason 1, 2 and season 1,2. We didnt get the results we wanted. Sadly, throwing money at the problem isnt always the solution 😛

Note: Once again these are just my personal opinions. IMC+Labs have yet to make a decision on these topics

[minor grove]

now we are ready to give 50% for bots and multi-acking for ranked, than to give more to those who supported the cut all this time?)

what is the team mechanism against multi accounts? i will create 10 and friend will create 10

[latent crown]

well I think incentivizing leviathan is very different than incentivizing non-leviathan because leviathan modes require some degree of investment and your power level scales with how much you invest in the game!

hopefully you've understood by now how the airdrop was a terrible idea. And that's because we attracted the wrong type of players with this mentality of rewarding just by playing. You're basically inviting extractors into our ecosystem, not creating long term passionate players for the IP.

[inland latch]

If it were up to me, leaderboard rewards will be significantly lower vs tournaments where you cant bot and multi-account. let the bots fight for scraps while the competitive players bask in tournament prize money

[minor grove]

I slightly disagree with you, bots and multi-acking can fight for scraps in Leviathan, but not in Ranked, and again, if you are for the leaderboard in Ranked, it will give scraps - this is normal, for Leviathan leaderbord it is not - since bots and multi-acking will not pass there without Iluvials, this is an investment

[feral plank]

Leaderbord at leviathan mode - you dont have good stats/lvl you can't get good place.
Tournaments - casual/ranked mode - you competitive and don't have good levi deck - it's your way to show it.

[latent crown]

also regarding your tournament view of things. Your view is ok but I would do it the other way around. I would make qualifiers both non-leviathan and leviathan maybe with more spots for leviathan. And then I would focus tournaments on non-leviathan mode where it's the skill expression that differentiates players and not their wallet size.

[inland latch]

Well, how I was thinking it was that you have weekly leaderboards (one avenue to qualify), monthly non-leviathan tournaments (another avenue to qualify). So 3 NL Tournament Qualifiers with 1 Major Invitational Leviathan tournament. For simplicities sake and only illustration purposes, 100 ILV for NL 100 ILV for L tournaments. 100 is split into 3 so 33 ILV but the Leviathan is 100 ILV one time tourney per quarter.

Again, im not saying this is what will be followed, just giving suggestions on how id do the tournaments to give more incentive to leviathan tournaments. Bigger prize money, less frequency, more prestige.

[latent crown]

gotcha. I'm looking forward to see what you guys end up implementing. I trust you'll make the best decision with all the data you have. Thanks for the back and forth Scrub

[inland latch]

Anytime! Will keep you guys posted on the developments on this but were waiting for Kieran to cook up a proposal for it. So please feel free to share all ideas and suggestions as these are usually brought up in the discussions

[thick oxide]

Sorry just to clarify you suggest 33ilv per tournament (NL) weekly? and 1 leviathan 100ilv monthly tournament thats was you suggest?

[inland latch]

No thats not the suggestion. Its an illustration for simplicitys sake.

[minor grove]

okay thx for example but next time take better rewards for leaderboards and tournaments)

because I was scared by prize pool)

[inland latch]

hahaha I edited to state its for illustration. Thanks for raising it

[minor grove]

nice approach, i like it

[uncut moat]

Not necessarily. If U start slow at say 5k total ILV rewards at 50/50 and then in 2 months add 2.5k ILV rewards to leviathan.

U took nothing away and U changed it to a 25/75 split.

There are more ways to skin a cat

Numbers are all placeholder. But this is more what I meant.

The ILV rewards themselves slowly ramp up overall. And the allocation doesn't need to ramp up the same across all events in the same ways.

The issue you are describing regarding taking things away is an issue when U kick off with 30k ILV for example. It's hard to shift such a large sum in any direction.

[latent crown]

gotcha! That makes sense 🫡

[uncut moat]

That's how I've always viewed it at least.

[latent crown]

I trust you guys. Can't wait for season 3.

[uncut moat]

Yeah, doing it right is crucial, unfortunately game development is annoyingly unpredictable 😛

[lament fossil]

I don't think ascendant is the problem here
What's our playerbase? Like ten?
Broke the 1000s mark

[pastel barn]

in testnet?

[lament fossil]

No 🥲

[pastel barn]

well everybody is there now, i played all morning

[hot sonnet]

Incentivising people with ILV is very different to cosmetics, or ‘whatnot’.

That’s quite fundamental - one is monetary, the other isn’t directly.

There needs to be a better understanding of the consequences of incentivising people with real money (and a crypto investment token as an extension of that).

I know it’s a throw away comment as part of a bigger response.

But it’s really really important.

The game can stand on its own two feet now - everything I’m hearing is it’s really good now (gauntlet f2p)

And chucking some money as a reward at it (because you don’t quite believe in the game 100% yet) fundamentally changes people’s reasons for playing in in my opinion a really negative way.

Leave leviathan for the people playing for rewards (partly as an investment profit) and let gauntlet f2p stand-alone without monetary incentives

[latent crown]

they're afraid that without incentives the game isn't good enough that it appeals to players. I'm with you, I still think there should be no rewards for the F2P mode and we should instead be trying to push players to the leviathan mode as much as we can.

but I would argue, if we're giving a small quantity of rewards to the F2P then it will be either a trivial reward or only for the top 100. Which ends up being the same as basically not having rewards.

[hot sonnet]

I have a different view in the sense that F2P and leviathan can Co-exist without needing to push people down the leviathan path.

I think the majority of people prefer gaming on a level playing field and so my view is leviathan will be a smaller mode vs F2P

[latent crown]

leviathan modes is what drives the entire economy. Therefore all incentives should go there.

[patent hull]

One benefit of rewards going to F2P is quick match making which is essential for stickyness. TBH right now I don't really care for Leviathan. I've got a good wack of illuvials but none of them are amazing stats, seems like a game for whales, I want the mainstream TFT player to enjoy a fresh experience, I think that lies in F2P Gauntlet Ranked. If all the players are on Leviathan then there will be no matchmaking in ranked

[latent crown]

and yes I agree with you that "people prefer gaming on a level playing field" but that means players are playing for fun and not for prizes.

[latent crown]

there's no prizes in TFT and theres still players. Just because we pay ILV to the leviathan mode doesn't mean there won't be players in the normal mode.

you either play for fun and climb the ladder or you play to compete for rewards.

[patent hull]

I prefer ranked but if there's rewards for Leviathan I'm going to choose that even if I'm not enjoying it as much. I don't mind more rewards going to Leviathan than ranked, but there should still be some rewards for ranked leaderboards IMO.

[inland latch]

Its in a good state for us in the ecosystem is different from its in a good state to attract outside our ecosystem to play it. If youve played TFT you can see that while we have the potential, were not there yet. We want to steal market share from TFT and all the autobattler games not just in Web 3 but in Web 2.

Were in a bubble currently. Were happy to play the game cause were invested in it either monetary-wise or we are already hooked.

Marketing has lots of levers to pull. Labs is on top of this and taking the initiative. The bottomline here is we need to get the game unto other peoples hands. How do we go about that? We do trad marketing we eat through our runway. We go through rewards it wont eat up runway but only the ILV treasury.

Feel free to suggest and tag Kieran but maybe its best we do so in a new thread. Weve strayed a bit from the main topic unto rewards.

[patent hull]

Limited edition cosmetics as incentives are always great, keeps costs low for the DAO (not giving away ILV) and feels rare to the player as it's time limited, especially as they are tradeable NFTs

[inland latch]

I agree there but at the same time, that might take more time to pivot into whereas token rewards is literally there. We can activate rewards as soon as the bugs and crashes are fixed. Id rather we not wait for designs and modelling on cosmetics that will delay us activating our gauntlet direction. In the future, I definitely agree. We should move into cosmetics as it is a tried and true method.

[patent hull]

I agree, a good option for the future.

[inland latch]

https://tenor.com/view/bromance-sig-curtis-alex-louis-armstrong-fullmetal-fma-gif-18194534

[latent crown]

well you're clearly proving my point. I think everyone besides those with top decks would rather play on a level playing field. But you yourself are saying you would go play Leviathan if there were only rewards there. That would mean you would end up buying some illuvials to improve your game.

I ask you then wouldn't it be the same if there's a small reward for the ranked F2P mode that only pays the top 100 or pays a meaningless amount to the top 500? Wouldn't you still wanna go play Leviathan?

this should be the way for every future game we make. F2P modes don't have ILV rewards... Gamers are not attracted by money, they're attracted by good games.

[minor grove]

And how much whale's do you know and bow much we have? 10?

[patent hull]

You're assumption of me buying illuvials to improve my game is wrong. I'm not interested in that. I am more of battlepass/cosmetics kind of guy.

If Ranked had rewards, Leviathan would have to be 4x the rewards for me to play it over Ranked.

I think Ranked is a better game than Leviathan, and as you said gamers are attracted by good games not money, but money is a good incentive to get involved in a game, and I think some of that money should go to Ranked as I think it's the game more people will like and play more - which is true right now if you look at the playtime. Ranked is probably played 10x more than Leviathan.

[patent hull]

I don't know to both questions but if I had to guess maybe 50 people with decent Leviathan decks?

[minor grove]

There are far fewer decent decks, so if you start now with mid stats and level up you will be stronger than 95% of players

[kind jackal]

there aren't 50 leviathan teams in the game even yet

[patent hull]

Fair enough, but it's like Illuvium Beyond, how deep does the rabbit hole? How much money have I gotta sink into this to be average? I'd rather play for free and have fun with cosmetics, battleboards and leaderboards.

I guess right now Leviathan isn't my jam and it would be sad to not have rewards going to Ranked leaderboards.

[patent hull]

I mean 50 people with a lot of illuvials, most of which have decent stats

[minor grove]

around 2-10$ for each iluvs but some tiers cost a little bit moe

[patent hull]

and how many iluvs do you recommend?

[minor grove]

but you catch in by youself

[feral plank]

i come with 0 money. atm i have good deck, with more that 10+ illuvials lvl60.
if you not lazy and have target, you have motivation to do something.
in other hand - easy just say - Leviathan for try-harders and whales, i don't whant it

as well - i'm at 1st position in ladder board with good overall placement. but i'l preffer play leviathan - coz i use my own things, and i can check my strengh - do i need prepare more, or i have to chill
but i have to play common ranked - i find game in 5 min, in Levi it's take more that 1 hour. and for now - i'm even don't have target play ranked. why i have to do it? i'm top-1, we don't have revards.
for fun? disconect every 2nd game not fun.
as soon we have revards and more reason play leviathan - as faster people stop play common ranked.

[minor grove]

if you know how play to ranked ypu can but only a few decks liek rog and play only this team in the Levi and get rewards)

[patent hull]

I feel like Leviathan is what you progress to after playing Ranked and liking the game. I don't like Leviathan because I get my ass kicked all the time and I can never find a game.

I feel bringing noobs in and only incentivising Leviathan will equal high bounce rates as they get their asses handed to them.

Incentivise Ranked for the mainstream and incentivise Leviathan for the hardcore.

[feral plank]

when i got kicked, yes i think i have play better, or i have prepared better, i'm not start crying.
i'm going back into OW, or into marked to choice better stats, get higher lvl of my illuvials.
and after 1 week of work i come back to fight again

https://tenor.com/view/sylvester-stallone-rocky-training-montage-push-ups-gif-990332804781454019

[patent hull]

That's cool but we're different gamers, I don't have the time. I just wanna bust open a game after work for an hour and play PVP. That's why TFT is so successful and that's what Ranked is based on.

[feral plank]

and you can do it. but why you have get more revards that people who spend money or time to prepare?

[patent hull]

Not more rewards, just some. Leviathan have 75% and Ranked have 25%, that works for me

[feral plank]

ofk, it's work for me to. why i have spend 14 hours everyday, and ton of money, if i can just come and take my free money?

[patent hull]

To get new players into the game and ecosystem. If you dont all the time you've put in will be for nothing.

[feral plank]

but you say - you don't whana work to prepare, just chill in some games after work - if you feel it fun, why you think about 25% rewards?

[patent hull]

Becuase some 14 year old, those rewards sound great, then they realise they like the game and stay and share it with their friends. With Leviathan that 14yr old would need to spend $100 on illuvials to compete, but they wouldn't because they don't understand the game yet because they are a noob = Ranked is the gateway drug.

[feral plank]

i think overall age of players here - 30+. is it legal spend money in ethernet when you are 14 y.o.?

[patent hull]

Epic games is for fortnite, a huge amount of our potential is with teenagers. Of course adults 30+ are a target also, I'm 35, but 15-30 is where most of the gamers are. Kids parents let them use their credit card all the time for skins in game, that is not a concern. Either way I've voiced my concerns 👍

[feral plank]

is it work for web-3 as well? i think this age come into web-3 not to play, or spend. just to take free-money.

[hot sonnet]

I doesn’t have to be..

[hot sonnet]

I wouldn’t have an issue with people playing for fun and no prizes in this mode. In fact it’s preferable.

[hot sonnet]

Don’t forget that you have 40,000 token holders that are already naturally incentivised to bring in all of their gamer friends…as soon as the game is good enough.

They don’t need something in exchange for referring a friend/more incentives. Revdis is our friend already.

The more they bring in - the more the token value goes up

Something as basic as:

5 friends referred by a token holder = low level cosmetic

10 = lvl 2 cosmetic

25 = rare cosmetic

Etc etc

[sinful maple]

Hi @plush hawk. If the question of characteristics is still relevant, then I would like to add some details to my comment, since I have heard several good arguments about reducing the power of illuvials. I think that if we want to leave only one mode (in which characteristics will be influenced), then it is necessary to reduce the progression of the influence of characteristics for the initial and middle levels, for greater involvement of new people, but at the same time leave the difference for high levels.

What do I mean in numbers:

1. The difference between characteristics equal to 4-5 should be about 9%
2. The difference between characteristics equal to 3-4 should be about 3%
3. The difference between the characteristics of 2-3 should be about 1.5%
4. The difference between characteristics equal to 1-2 should be about 0.5%
5. The bonus for the level should start at 40lvl and give 1-5%

These figures are indicative, but they reflect the reality in the open world. Characteristic 5 is quite difficult to obtain, so it should give a greater increase. This order of bonuses for characteristics will perform several functions:

1. It will soften the entrance for new players, allowing them to feel good at the initial and intermediate levels
2. It will not affect the value of really good units. It will keep people motivated to find the best units.

[plush hawk]

Thanks for taking the time to think about this BrewCrew!!

[sinful maple]

I'm a little worried about it. But I hope for your knowledge and experience. thank you for your attention

[olive night]

They should have a flat difference between 2 traits. No reason to overcomplicate things. 1 trait diff can be lets say a 2-5% diff.

[sinful maple]

the difference should be comparable to the rarity, otherwise it will greatly affect the entire ecosystem (ow, zero, market). I tried to offer a compromise for everyone.

[olive night]

Why should a Tier 1 illuvial scale differently than a T5 illuvial in terms of stats? You could simply just have a higher number, instead of a 1% boost, Lets say a 3% difference in output from one illuvial with 4 atk speed vs 5 atk speed, similar for both T1 and T5 illuvials.

[sinful maple]

I didn’t write anything about t1-t5, I wrote about the stat grid. The grid has divisions, now it is 10-20-30-40-50%. I suggest reducing these values, but taking into account the rarity

[olive night]

okay, but it is just as likely to get a trait with the value of 4 as a trait with value of 1. It would be much less complicated to just have a flat difference. Lets say one with trait 1 gets 2% bonus, one with trait 2 gets 4% bonus... and so on until 10% bonus with trait 5. Everything is always so complicated, it doesnt have to be that way. Keep it simple, and easy to understand, even for new players.

[sinful maple]

if the difference between 4 and 5 is too small, then it will have practically no effect on anything. Therefore, people will stop playing OW, and because of this, landlords will not be able to sell fuel.

[olive night]

do you know how competitive it is in the top ladder? It is incredible small differences between players. Illuvials with only a 2% difference will be worth a lot more. Make it 3% then, difference between 1 trait to another, so a maximum of 15% bonus

[sinful maple]

I'm not trying to give specific numbers, I'm trying to say that the rarity should be comparable

developers must select specific values ​​based on balance

[olive night]

your suggestion basically says; if you want to compete in Leviathan, you must have max level stats across the board. If there is a 6% difference between one with trait 4 and 5, you have basically 0 chance competing for anything with an illuvial with a trait value of 4, at least in the top 50 positions on leaderboard and for tournaments

[sinful maple]

yes, but if it is 2%, I’m not sure it will greatly affect the game, but it will greatly affect the market. Are you ready to give guarantees that the market will not die with such a balance?

if 2% does not affect anything, then the people who invested the money will suffer

[olive night]

2-3% is still an edge. Illuvials with max stats will still be really sought after. But you would be able to compete if you lets say have an illuvial with trait value 4 on all vs one with 5 on all, thats a 2-3% difference, but you could still compete vs a whale if you are good at positioning etc. I am just afraid that making it too much an advantage having max stats, this would feel really bad, and people would quit, rather play ranked free to play

[sinful maple]

From the current balance it is clearly seen that augmentation giving +10% behaves well, but is not a huge advantage. When calculating, I proceeded from this; I have no other data. But a 2% advantage sounds crazy. Nobody will pay for this

[olive night]

remember that the 2-3% bonus would scale, in terms of synergies, affinities and augments you put on the illuvials, so 2-3% would become a lot more if you augmentize the illuvials

[sinful maple]

I hope for fair calculations from the developers and can only wait for the announcement of their decision. But the market is always right, so we'll see

[olive night]

yeah, good discussion

[mellow rune]

Problem is you get way more power from an augment lottery or some broken mechanic ie virtuous lynx so this diminishes stats to the point where a single augment trumps perfect 5/5 stats. Needs to be a definitive edge or not worth the time and effort to catch them. No one person has a full team of 5/5 illuvials so to say a 4/5 couldn't make it into top 50 sounds absurd

[next herald]

So balance the game around broken augments and broken mechanics? Got it. It's not like those will eventually will be balanced or anything 👍

[olive night]

If you have average + stats, and you are battling other players with close to max stats, over time the luck involving augments and RNG will even out, and you will definitely struggle getting top 50, imagine it is like the stats now, an average+ illuvial (with stats of 3-4 across all stats, have a 10-20% disadvantage. That’s a lot if you ask me 😊

[mellow rune]

Stats should be the pinnacle of OW runs we are not hunting good augments or broken mechanics.... this is why this is the way...

[mellow rune]

Just to put things in perspective for you I am willing to bet right now as the game stands Slickz Fox Spirit and Whity using only 4/5 illuvials will beat a mid player using all 5/5 illuvials more than 50% of all games played. With this in mind the game is not IMBA as you are portraying imo

[olive night]

Probably yes! and i dont mind there is an edge, i have quite solid illuvials. My concern is if the edge is too much 😉

[mellow rune]

If you believe this to be true then it is a prime example and is indicative of the game being balanced such that a skillful player can over come perfect stats

[olive night]

im thinking more about the good players, not the god players, they will still do very well with 4/5

[mellow rune]

If you consider that 4/5 can beat 5/5 given the right skill level then just what exactly is your goal for "balance" at what point do you stop messing with stats?

Ie would you say that a 0/0 beating a 5/5 is balanced?

[analog oxide]

There should only be Gauntlet Leviathan. Watch market place and fuel economy sky rocket 🚀

[distant canyon]

I think this is a brilliant idea!! Best one i've seen when it comes to balancing.
Scaling. Simple yet highly effective and you'd imagine that it would appease most people 🧠

[harsh verge]

I disagree as this seems counterintuitive to proper game design and power scaling conventions. Min-maxing has always been about squeezing out every last bit of an advantage, even if it's a tiny amount.

As an example, even a 4-5 difference in trait level is not a direct 10% buff to the stat. If a base stat is 100, the difference between a 40% buff or a 50% buff is actually measuring the improvement between 140 and 150. With a 10 point difference to get to 150, that's actually an improvement of about 6-7% vs a flat 10%. Anyone who is aiming for an advantage will still seek this especially at the highest levels of competition even if there are diminishing returns.

Suggesting to make the degree of scaling larger at higher trait levels to circumvent this dynamic will 100% push this game into a complete p2w model and will detract light spenders from engaging in any competition that involves facing whales. It creates a dynamic of black and white outcome that will disregard the spirit of competition. If the outcomes are predetermined, there's no point in playing.

For reference, players in league of legends will highly contest an infernal Drake for a team-wide 3% buff to attack damage and ability power. That seems like a negligible amount at first glance but it's well understood in competitive eSports that every little advantage counts. And despite this advantage, there is still room for error and throw the game.

High levels of engagement hinges on the outcome being undeterminable.

[minor grove]

If you don't play ow and don't try to collect best stats, pls play ranked like esports and etc. levi mode for true degens, true whale's organizations, true hard players and huge investments. Its web3. Illuvium decided to nerf some stats and ppl continue annoy about how not fair between stats. Go to capture 1 full stats iluv in or fuse full stats and then we are speaking

[distant canyon]

What if you scale in the opposite direction?

[harsh verge]

It technically already does scale that way due to diminishing returns. The more points you add to a stat, the less effect each point will have on the stat overall.

Compare a 10% bonus on a base stat of 100. To go from trait level 0 to trait level 1, that's a difference of 100 vs 110. That would make it a clear 10% improvement. As I go from 110 to 120, that's about a 9% improvement, 120 to 130 is about an 8% improvement and so on ad infinitum.

[distant canyon]

The improvement over the base stat increases at the same rate though, 20% = 120, 40% = 140, so each increment is as equally beneficial as the last.

What i'm referring to is actually scaling down the %, but front loading it so that the largest benefit is low down on the scale, so that instead of 10% gain per increment, it could scale down from 10%, 8%, 6%, 4%, 2%, for example.
With the current model, a max stat illuvial with a base stat of 100 would be 150.
Proposed model, a max stat illuvial with a base stat of 100, would be 130.

The difference would still be considerable, but not too far to deter new participants from having a possibility of competing with not so perfect stats. You would also imagine that the demand for stats in the mid range with this setup would also increase as they would have a lot more play.

As you said yourself, in competitive sports, small advantages count for a great deal, so max stats would still remain desirable, without having to be completely busted.

All of those figures are just examples, just there to demonstrate an idea. I'm not proposing those specifically.

[harsh verge]

Yes, that's technically possible, though it would add another layer of balancing to the equation. It really depends on where the target sweet spot for trait level scaling is and if the team can balance it so that trait level 5 still has an appreciable enough advantage over lesser trait levels.

However, I want to reiterate that our current trait system already does what you're suggesting for front-loading the highest improvement at the earliest trait levels despite it appearing as though it's not; it's just to a lesser degree.

[sinful maple]

The chance of catching Illuvial 5stats does not depend on whether you are a whale or not. You buy an entrance ticket and get a chance to catch it. Then you decide to sell it and use the money to capture the next ones, or keep it in your collection. You are trying to prove that the game should be f2p, but you do not understand that f2p players can only bring profit to developers (through advertising), all other players will suffer because no one will be able to sell anything (neither fuel, nor illuvials, nor land). What's the point of buying something if everyone is equal in the arena. So you're just trying to make a web 2 game, which is full and so. That's not why I'm here.
The game LOL or Dota has been working on the balance of its game for more than 10 years, so 2% can work there. Here it may not work so effectively and only developers know about it. You don’t have data about the game, you don’t even have logs, you can’t calculate what percentage is needed. So don't write about it here, it's a waste of time.

I was trying to convey a completely different idea. I will try to explain in more detail. The numbers that I indicated are just an EXAMPLE. The point I was trying to convey is that the distribution of illuvials in the open world is not uniform. Therefore, their characteristics must take this into account. I will show you the approximate distribution in the open world (you apparently have never played), see the screenshot (1,2,3,4,5 this corresponds to stats 10,20,30,40,50). it's in the game code. Now explain to me how this rarity is justified? does a 2% difference seem fair?

I think it would be fair to do this (instead of «y», substitute any percentages):
0-1 «y»
1-2 2 х «y»
2-3 3 х «y»
3-4 6 х «y»
4-5 18 х «y»

For example, I took the difference of «у»=0,5%
0-1 0,5%
1-2 1%
2-3 1,5%
3-4 3%
4-5 9%
in my opinion it would be fair

[sinful maple]

I'm not a whale at all (I can show my wallet, it's not a secret), but this is the winning structure for all participants

[next herald]

This can only be true in an f2p or one time buy environment where people compete on equal terms and are able to upgrade/progress their stats through gameplay.

What you suggest will make competing without a 5/5 stacked team actually impossible. 9% bonus per (4->5) trait (more than the previous 4 combined), for multiple traits, for 10 illuvials will be just gating anyone who cannot afford a full stats team from ever competing or even wanting to.

[kind jackal]

If anything you'd want to make 0-3/4 a bigger jump than 4-5 to get people to actually buy illuvials, no? If some guy who'd have spent a few hundred $ sees that it's basically irrelevant to upgrade to anything other than a max 5 he's just not buying anything instead.

[sinful maple]

I have a counter question. take a close look at the screenshot. Will any of you try to catch stat 5 with such a chance (0.5-0.7%)? How many times does it take to go to C3 of the open world to catch him?

[next herald]

It's not about "trying" to capture it, it's about when you do, to have enough demand from the competitive scene for it to have any value, which if the game is good enough and with large enough playerbase, there will be. Top 5% will be after even 1% advantage.

[kind jackal]

yes, that's what i've been doing for the past 2 months, i think you're underestimating the amount of perfect 3s that you can actually catch/fuse, there's a lot of them, there's just not many perfect 250%

but the thing is the perfect 5s already have value just by being maxxed. It's the shitter stat ones that need a reason to even catch them let alone buy one.

[next herald]

This is a far better suggestion.

[sinful maple]

I'm trying to defend this demand for super rare illuvials. And you're trying to kill him. counting on the fact that f2p players will want to buy something

[next herald]

This is actually nothing like what I'm saying. I've played this game before, laters 🫡

[kind jackal]

there will always be demand for those, there's no demand for the others

[sinful maple]

I will not agree. there will be no demand if the difference is not noticeable. and for example, the difference of 2% with the current balance is ridiculous))

if someone has a desire, we can check the difference of 10% (less will not work). I will build a deck with 0 stats and you will build a deck with all stats at 10%. and let's check how easily you will win me. and then tell me about the difference in 2%. Is someone ready to check?

[kind jackal]

4-5 is about 10% tho which is big, these are 2 quinxes

[sinful maple]

why are you complicating the task, show 1 level and not 60. I wrote about the levels separately what should be there

[kind jackal]

ok i just reread your thing and just now got that it is 9% already and you want it at 18%. That's way too much imo 9% is huge already

[kind jackal]

cuz i didn't have 2 level 1s with the stats to compare, i don't really get what u're trying to say maybe? aren't you trying to say you want an 18% power diff between lvl 60 40% stat vs lvl 60 lvl 50% stat when it's currently 9%?

[sinful maple]

compared with 0, up to 18%, but it's not difficult to think about becoming 4, the market is flooded with them and with it

[sinful maple]

Yes, it will be 9%, that's right

[kind jackal]

oh it would still be 9%, yea then i just typed useless stuff before

[sinful maple]

I just didn't understand why this screenshot is from you. Still, it's clear enough))

[pallid veldt]

https://tenor.com/view/bart-simpson-the-simpsons-at-least-you-tried-fail-failure-gif-7859548

[kind jackal]

i thought u wanted to make a power diff of 18% between 40% to 50%

[sinful maple]

18 between 0 and 5

[feral plank]

need more diff between lvl 50 and 60. 10% is to low, compare to x3 exp you need

[kind jackal]

yeah then i'm for it seems reasonable

[pallid veldt]

i would make level uncapped and would say 10% is too much

[feral plank]

level uncapped already

[pallid veldt]

but not stat increase, right?

[feral plank]

increase. 1% for every lvl.
but need much more exp

[kind jackal]

the problem with uncapping levels is you're gonna just make players not play at all until end of season to get their levels as high as possible and 60 already takes a long time

[pallid veldt]

oh, didn't know that.
thought stat increase stops at 60

[pallid veldt]

i don't think that's a problem really with tournaments popping up here and there throughout the season

[sinful maple]

any bot can swing the level endlessly, which will eventually break all the difference in the grid. therefore, I do not agree that he should give a lot.

[kind jackal]

what do you mean? you're keeping players in overworld who would otherwise be in gauntlet queues

[pallid veldt]

i don't think so.
You have tournaments, you have leaderboard, gauntlet gives exp too (might need a rebalance), at some point you will have training gyms in zero. It would be weird that people who like gauntlet and want to play competitive would just farm overworld until end of season.

[kind jackal]

honestly i think levels are straight up net negative, you're making queue times longer, you're making it so people can't go to shop-get perfects-jump into gauntlet, and it doesn't even work properly for the ecosystem with overworld because as the company you don't want people spending 2 hours in 1 run, which is what you do when leveling

well why would you play with worse stats early season to then lose to everyone who spent the time leveling instead

[tepid cave]

A while ago there was no change in status between LV60 and LV61, but is there any change now?

[pallid veldt]

because i want get leaderboard rewards, win tournaments, level my illuvials in a training gym and while fighting in gauntlet

but i would love everyone leveling und just get last weeks rewards lol

[kind jackal]

but exactly, so why would you play gauntlet early when everyone who farmed levels is gonna stomp you in late season, you just play the tournaments and farm as many levels as u can in OW

you're not gonna be able to camp early season and then you're not gonna be able to compete in late season

[pallid veldt]

i think you have somehow the asumption that there is a longtime season and there is just rewards at the very end of it.
I don't have details, but i very much doubt that will be the case

[feral plank]

you got 50% stats for lvl 50, and need 200k exp for illuvial, then you got extra 10% for lvl.60 - but need get more 400k exp.
even bots grind exp - they have spend money for fuel. it's not bad? and in stage-0 impossible grind exp

[kind jackal]

i'm assuming it's 1 month season with rewards based on end ranking

[kind jackal]

that's what i mean with fuel tho, it's net negative to the ecosystem because people would do 30 minute runs without leveling, but with leveling they do 2 hour runs

[pallid veldt]

could be, but i doubt it

whenever there were leaderboards there were weekly rewards yet

[sinful maple]

Maybe you're right. Idk, but it needs to be thought out against scripts.

[pallid veldt]

https://tenor.com/view/oh-wow-michael-scott-the-gif-25268355

[feral plank]

it's not mine(lvl.64) just show as example

[pallid veldt]

and i'm impressed it's uncapped 😄

[tepid cave]

#💬〕general message

At this point, there was no difference, and the official answer was that there would be no change in status above LV60, but has the specification changed since then?

[feral plank]

i read somewhere, that stats in game and in illuvidex different, and it's buged or wrong displayed, so - don't know.

[tepid cave]

#💬〕general message

#💬〕general message

This is the answer. But it was two months ago, so it's possible that the specifications have changed.

[pallid veldt]

what i know was that like a month ago the team was debating internally if they should cap it or not, and if they cap it at what level.
Can't find the post anymore, and also haven't heared anything further about that topic.

[tepid cave]

I'd like to see this specification clarified, regardless of how the stats and LV adjustments are applied.

It will have a big impact on play time...

[feral plank]

you can chill, already have x2-x3 lvl 60 of any players around

[kind jackal]

did anyone level T0s to 60?