#We Need Progression Content Outside of Bonus Stats

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

prisma lynx
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After all the recent discussion about stats, it's become more clear to me that what is needed is not to introduce ways to change the bonus stats system, but what we need is more meaningful progression systems for Illuvials separate from the bonus stats system. I'm sure the dev team is on it, but this is more for community discussion.

This is to tackle a few key issues:

  1. Acquiring better stats is currently based on a full on RNG gacha. The goal of the stats system is to induce high rarity, scarcity and to create a continuous gacha cycle for whale spending. This inherently shouldn't be touched as it's already established as a core system that supports the entire Illuvium ecosystem as the chase for perfect stats is the driver for the marketplace and fuel consumption.

That leaves us a question of what do we do about the light spenders or free players?

  1. What feels lacking about the stat/catch system is it is completely antithetical to a "bond with your Illuvial" design philosophy. If the only meaningful progression system for Illuvials is in the bonus stats, that means whatever I end up catching is always going to feel "not good enough" until I get perfect stats.

We would never imagine Ash to abandon his first Pikachu once he captures a stronger one. They grow together and work things out through thick and thin. But right now, our only basis of value is in acquiring absolute strength and the best stats, not growth, and sticking it through...

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From previous games I've played, I always felt more bonded to a character the more I work on the character. It's because the experience of seeing that character go from 0 to 100 and being a part of that process is what matters to bonding. But if our only meaningful progression right now is to obtain perfect stats via RNG and not because of my effort in playing, building or training, I will never feel a sense of bonding to an Illuvial because as soon as I get a better one, the older Illuvial is getting sold or burned and will just be treated like a commodity.

What do we do about it?

The saving grace is that the stats only matter for Leviathan modes. That means it's an optional system. We DON'T have to participate in that whales game if we don't want to.

We have some content drops in the form of dungeons, raids, factions, quests, Illuvial combat, story, and other future game modes coming. These are the perfect grounds for coveting a gameplay loop that allows for the more standard gaming mechanisms like farmable equippables and skill trees (I think the ranger is getting this from what I glanced on Discord).

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For example, equippables for Illuvials could be called "genes" or something like that, where you farm dungeons and raids to acquire "genes" or "genetic material" from the bosses you encounter. Raids could be time gated to prevent bot farming (maybe one successful run per week, and one extra run by paying fuel to "keep the gate open"). You could do the same for dungeons but maybe limited to a few runs a day for "genetic material" and lower tier "genes". These "genes" would modify your Illuvials so their base stats could increase separate from bonus stats. Mix in some farmable higher tier "genes" that have set bonuses or skill augments like in Diablo or WoW and now we have a progression system to build our Illuvials with that is less gacha driven, and more player content driven.

Or maybe Illuvials could get more abilities. Just like with the TM/HM system in Pokemon, you can train your Illuvials with additional skills. Maybe there are some skills that only work in overworld, maybe some that only work in arena, and maybe some that work for both. To acquire them, maybe some need to be farmed, some can be bought with fuel, and maybe others can be farmed and bought. Maybe there are some Leviathan-only abilities that can only be acquired from stage runs or with another fuel sink type run 🤔. Maybe you can train certain skills into Illuvials using a building in Zero that landholders can farm HM-type abilities for.

These are the kinds of things we should be discussing and asking for, not trying to change bonus stats. Bonus stats are done. Let's move on from bonus stats and discuss new layers of progression instead.

jovial tusk
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Or even if it's not an additional skill, in case we don't wanna break their identity. Just giving levels to the skills would be a huge W. This way stats wouldn't be the end all be all but the actual skills level would also matter.

prisma lynx
high atlas
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As long as training gyms are an alternative or a time4money trade to earning the skill level upgrades, I think it would be very healthy. If you HAVE to pay more money to upgrade those skills though and can't earn them by playing, I think that would cause issues, because you're already buying into a high stats illuvial when purchasing it. I don't want it nerfed in the name of more mandatory spending.

prisma lynx
high atlas
charred cave
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NFT ownership gives you a life long boost, but you can get the same boost with grinding/coins or just a temporary boost with coins. This could be the recipe for all of our games. And this seems to be ok with Apple and Google.

prisma lynx
# charred cave NFT ownership gives you a life long boost, but you can get the same boost with g...

That's a great idea. Guild of Guardians has an NFT token with this exact purpose whereby holding it in your wallet grants you lifetime benefits in the game in the form of faster energy recovery, a bonus free run per day in their endless survival mode, an extra campaign clear, etc. I can definitely see that being implemented for Illuvium and can give another meaningful capital raise if we need it.

charred cave
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Multiple ways for each type of player to get to the final goal of almost perfect Illuvials and Leviathan play.

prisma lynx
# charred cave Multiple ways for each type of player to get to the final goal of almost perfect...

So basically you're saying with more ways to progress your Illuvials, the influence of bonus stats could be more diminished over time, giving a smaller advantage in Leviathan, but an advantage nonetheless. I'm not sure if I understood correctly.

It really depends on whether any changes to base stats from bonus stats multipliers come before or after other stat changes from other various progression systems.

I personally would prefer to not touch bonus stats at this point because we don't have enough context for what it feels like to have more layers of progression in non-leviathan game modes yet. Maybe after more progression systems are implemented outside bonus stats, those of us who are wanting to change it now will think the bonus stats system is fine the way it is. I'd rather get to that point first to see if the theory holds true.

full olive
full olive
# prisma lynx After all the recent discussion about stats, it's become more clear to me that w...

Rng being the only thing that influence an illuvial feels like a scam for me.
Natural talent vs hard work
We are missing the hard work now.
A feeling of progression is needed. I have a favorite illuvial and i want to improve it. Give me that oportunity. I might not have the best illuvials in the game, but i want to aim for #1 illuvial of that line in the game.
A scoring system will be implemented. Let me grind it so much that it increases his score. A leaderboard for illuvials would be great.

prisma lynx
# full olive Rng being the only thing that influence an illuvial feels like a scam for me. Na...

With the right progression systems in place, you could take your Illuvial to farm and "gear it up." That has been a very successful gameplay loop that can be done seasonally too. And with leaderboards specific to each Illuvial, that gives a chance for many unpopular or less powerful Illuvials to have a place in competitive leaderboards as well. I remember when Diablo 2 ladder seasons were also divided up by class, this could be the same kind of thing.

Low stat Illuvials could also be used for something like this since after reset, you'll have to get another Illuvial that has never participated in a season event in order to participate in the next season.

Maybe a season could require you to first capture a brand new Illuvial, adding a need to head to an overworld stage run to start things off.

A Leviathan version would mean the bonus stats would matter, giving another layer of farming for whales.

halcyon lark
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I would rather us progress towards having different 3 different variations of each illuvial omega rather than leveling it up. Once you max an illuvial, you will have 3 choices of which omega you wanna chose for your team. That way the progression opens up much more diverse gameplay, rather than just including another time/money sink for only leveling the ability.

full olive
# prisma lynx With the right progression systems in place, you could take your Illuvial to far...

Leaderboard for account could be a solution for low stat illuvials.
If there would be a leaderboard that calculates the score of all illuvials you have, and you get a system to improve illuvials rating, then you would want to improve any illuvial you would have to climb the leaderboard. Even if the stats are bad, maybe by unlocking higher skill levels, higher levels, or other improvements that increases the illuvial Battle Rating will make you climb that leaderboard that gives rewards

full olive
prisma lynx
halcyon lark
full olive
halcyon lark
halcyon lark
# full olive If it isnt too much work, i would love it. More customization? Yes, please

The team should advise on this to know for sure but on the top of my head I can come up with many cool variations of omegas we have, so the team will be able to as well. I don't think the variations should necessary be a more stronger version (by pure stats), more so change the actual utility of the spell. That way the progression won't turn into another p2w mechanic, and is just gonna open up new team comps.

prisma lynx
charred cave
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Instead of inventing new layers of meaning purely for progression, we could also use the existing bonus stats percentages and extend them with point increments earned through game play.

If you had an Illuvial with 20% movement speed you could add 30% more from progression during game play.

We would set the existing bonus stats in stone and use them in Leviathan. These would basically be the "paid for" stats.

Additional point percentages earned through progression in game play, Zero Gyms etc. would only be used in new games or casual modes.

Conceptually we would separate paid and earned percentages and keep them separated, but display both in the stats view. Leviathan would only use the paid percentages, all other game modes the combined percentages.

A perfect "paid for" stats Illuvials will always be more valuable, but for most players an entry level Illvuial they can perfect with "gameplay percentages" through game play is good enough.

Maybe down the road there can be a separate Leviathan mode that also honors the "gameplay percentages" when you pay for a temporary entry ticket/boost.

prisma lynx
charred cave
prisma lynx
# charred cave I am not against new layers, just from an analytical view point they are not nec...

Yes, it isn't necessary in an absolute sense, but it would be a very stripped down experience without more layers. Let me ask you this... If we're talking about ways for Illuvials and characters to progress, what would we be utilizing the raids and quests that are coming to Overworld to farm for? When you go and fight a boss, the rewards aren't just "yay I got more levelup experience and points for a bigger stat increase" but rather it's "yay, i got some level up XP, a bunch of materials and loot I can use or salvage to make my Illuvial stronger, and maybe some extra resource material to craft an item." Wouldn't that make for a more interesting experience even if we're technically just adding more things to do?

full olive
charred cave
prisma lynx
charred cave
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If we all have the urge to fill up the bars then the team should leverage this urge. The DAO can make a lot of money. Basically a new player buys a cheap entry level Illuvial and once hooked, will play/spend until the bars are filled.

prisma lynx
jovial tusk
charred cave
jovial tusk
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if illuvials only have omega abilities that basically means fighting with an atlas or with an axodon is pretty much the same.

prisma lynx
jovial tusk
prisma lynx
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Maybe some abilities can be class specific, or element specific, that's interesting 🤔

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Or maybe some that are Illuvial specific, so you constantly have to hunt for that particular Illuvial to farm for the "genetic mutation"

jovial tusk
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I made some examples for a card game with the game pitch for Beyond.

Axolotl line cards
Atlas

  • Water Strike 1 - Water Attack Card - 1 Energy cost - Deal 4 water damage to an enemy.
  • Water Defense 1 - Water Skill Card - 1 Energy cost - Ranger gains 4 Block, water type.
  • Vapour Barrier 1 - Water Skill Card - 2 Energy cost - Ranger gains 12 Shield that lasts for 2 turns.
  • Vapour Barrier Blast 1 - Omega Card - 3 Energy - Ranger gains a shield for 5 + 20% of their Max Health for 1 turn. When the player’s next turn starts, if any shield % still remains, Atlas explodes it, dealing its remaining % as damage to all enemies in the Front Line.
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.
Axon

  • Water Strike 2 - Water Attack Card - 1 Energy cost - Deal 6 water damage to an enemy.
  • Water Defense 2 - Water Skill Card - 1 Energy cost - Ranger gains 6 Block, water type.
  • Vapour Barrier 2 - Water Skill Card - 2 Energy cost - Ranger gains 18 Shield that lasts for 2 turns.
  • Harbinger Touch 1 - Water Skill Card - 1 Energy cost - The next Omega Card played within the next 2 turns will have its effects increased by 25% and the Ranger will take 25% less damage from attacks for 1 turn.
  • Vapour Barrier Blast 2 - Omega Card - 3 Energy - Ranger gains a shield for 10 + 25% of their Max Health for 1 turn. When the player’s next turn starts, if any shield % still remains, Axon explodes it, dealing its remaining % as damage to all enemies in the Front Line.

Axodon

  • Water Strike 3 - Water Attack Card - 1 Energy cost - Deal 9 water damage to an enemy.
  • Water Defense 3 - Water Skill Card - 1 Energy cost - Ranger gains 9 Block, water type.
  • Vapour Barrier 3 - Water Skill Card - 2 Energy cost - Ranger gains 27 Shield that lasts for 2 turns.
  • Harbinger Touch 2 - Water Skill Card - 1 Energy cost - The next Omega Card played within the next 2 turns will have its effects increased by 50% and the Ranger will take 50% less damage from attacks for 1 turn.
  • Tsunami Caller 1 - Water Skill Card - 0 Energy Cost - For the next 2 turns the Ranger gains 2 Energy after an Omega Card is played.
  • Vapour Barrier Blast 3 - Omega Card - 3 Energy - Ranger gains a shield for 20 + 30% of their Max Health for 1 turn. When the player’s next turn starts, if any shield % still remains, Axodon explodes it, dealing its remaining % as damage to all enemies in the Front Line.
jovial tusk
prisma lynx
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It would be pretty interesting if they could make some skills work for both a Beyond TCG and Overworld/Arena

jovial tusk
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if we make illuvials have 3 generic abilities and an omega it can work for a variety of games, like a MOBA for example.

prisma lynx
halcyon lark
nocturne mesa
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As soon as i saw Raids on the vision map i also thought about what they might introduce with that or what would be cool to see.
"Genes" would be a nice word instead of the typical skill/talent tree i experienced in other games i played.

I thought about what if you have the typical dungeon feeling with raids; mobs/minibosses/endbosses, where you can progress through with your friends. Would be awesome, but what loot would you get in order to incentivize that game mode and is it f2p? I would definetly make it f2p and with that not handing out loot one can find in paid runs in the OW.

  • mobs could drop here and there consumables boosting illuvials, just usable in raids no other modes/games.
  • Minibosses could drop ressources needed to improve ranger weapons/armor, just useable in raids no other modes/games. Not enough for all participants of the raid, so the group has to roll the dice and best 2 out of five for example get 1 of those resources.
  • Endbosses could drop resources needed to build out the "gene-trees", those gene trees would have an impact in other modes/games. Not enough for all participants of the raid, so the group has to roll the dice similar to the minibosses.

Those gene trees could be divided into 3 trees, sustain/attack/omega each tree with many slots to activate and just get like +hp another one +resistance etc. and the last Gene in the tree could activate a passive ability tailored to the Illuvial and the gene tree chosen or innfluencing the omega. I tend to one has to commit to 1 of those 3 trees to increase diversity between the same illuvials, like one could make a titanor having an omega which is wider or just get a super tanky titanor.

The balancing for sure will get more difficult and entry level likely less beginner friendly with more complexity with armor/gene trees, but complex systems are also what players hold in the gameloop.

jovial tusk
nocturne mesa
# jovial tusk Raids have a huge potential. I like your ideas. And this all ties together with ...

agree.
In general i feel that individual stats should have the biggest impact on how strong it is in all game modes.
But there should be something obtainable to increase the strength of the illuvial/ranger with having skill and comitting time in f2p modes like raids.
Just those have less of an impact than the individual stats if opened up to have an impact in all game modes, or have a big impact aswell but are limited to that gamemode it gets aquired.

jovial tusk
nocturne mesa
prisma lynx
prisma lynx
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And it should really only matter in Leviathan only as far as I understand

jovial tusk
nocturne mesa
nocturne mesa
prisma lynx
charred cave
prisma lynx
nocturne mesa
nocturne mesa
sacred badge
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Upvoted..

Tag the devs ✅

prisma lynx
nocturne mesa
prisma lynx
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Call it Genes for skills trees and Mutations for items? My head is spinning...

prisma lynx
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We Need Progression Content Beyond Bonus Stats

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We Need Progression Content Outside of Bonus Stats

prisma lynx
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@dire lily with the upcoming OW raid and dungeon content, are we also getting more progression content to augment skills/stats/abilities for Illuvials much like what's being discussed here? It feels like the discussion over changing bonus stats is due to there being not enough progression content in general.

halcyon lark
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Raids/dungeons are probably a good 1-2 years away, not sure why it's discussed as if it's coming next month