Change Stats on Illuvials - Masterthread

[edgy bone]

This masterthread is designed to collect the key information and insights from various discussions about changing stats on Illuvials. If you've come across important points or conclusions in other threads, please share them here so we can consolidate the most relevant details in one place.

Feel free to share your opinions or highlight what you think are the most crucial takeaways from the discussions, especially what you believe has emerged as the key points for this topic.

[crisp pier]

Allowing players to re-roll or change Illuvial stats creates two major problems that can harm both the gameplay experience and the game’s economy.

A) Decreased Market Activity: By giving players the ability to alter stats, you provide them a shortcut that bypasses one of the key drivers of the in-game economy: the hunt for rare, perfectly-statted Illuvials. In a Web3 game like Illuvium, where assets have real-world value and can be traded in a marketplace, the scarcity and uniqueness of these Illuvials are fundamental to market activity. Players are incentivized to engage in trading when they cannot easily obtain the ideal Illuvial through gameplay alone, which makes hunting and market participation valuable and engaging. Allowing stat re-rolls or changes reduces the need for players to buy rare Illuvials from the market because they can simply tweak the ones they already own. This leads to less market activity, lowers demand for rare Illuvials, and weakens the overall economy by diluting the value of previously rare assets.

B) Acts as a Cheat Code: Introducing mechanics that allow players to change stats acts like a cheat code, effectively letting players bypass the core gameplay loop. The essence of Illuvium is the thrill of the hunt—finding rare and powerful Illuvials through exploration, strategy, and investment of time. If players can simply re-roll stats, they no longer need to engage with this core loop. This breaks the gameplay flow and diminishes the sense of achievement. Much like using cheat codes in traditional games, while it may offer short-term gratification, it quickly erodes the long-term enjoyment. The gameplay becomes shallow because players no longer face the challenge of finding or earning their powerful Illuvials, which leads to a loss of motivation and decreases overall player retention.

We Would Never Consideer a HOLO re-roll where you can re-roll so many Holo's into a Dark Holo and that Has Infinitely less game impact than STATS.

[edgy bone]

These are some of the most discussed ideas I've seen:

1.a) Burn Illuvials to increase stats
1.b) Burn Illuvials to reroll stats

Both ideas seem likely to result in the same outcome, where all the bad stat Illuvials are burned, leaving only good stat ones. This could negatively impact the overall economy by eliminating many of the cheaper assets that are valuable for game modes like Ascendant Arena.
In the short term: it could increase the value of bad stat Illuvials and decrease the value of high stat Illuvials.

2. Reduce the impact of stats
   I think the main motivation for making stats more accessible is to make the Leviathan arena more approachable. For example, this would avoid a scenario where only 10 players have full, perfect-stat competitive decks that cost $20k.

A drastic example: if stats only impacted up to 5% instead of 50%, there would still be a significant competitive advantage. Pro players would still strive to get perfect-stat decks, as every 0.1% would matter.
However, for semi-pros and casual PvP players, a +3% stat advantage might be sufficient to compete in their respective ranks, where the differences are less critical.

Note: Let's try to keep the first section of this thread focused on information gathering before we dive into discussing the points raised. This will help improve the thread's readability.

[gritty pasture]

• Alot of people that payed premium for stats (me included) will disagree with any type of stat modification.
• I am open to have my opinions changed. I don't care about what i want as long as it benefits the game
• If a stat alterning mechanism is implemented it should be expensive enough to not be viable, but still available for people that really want a certain stat altered ( i would use it too, no matter how expensive)
• Perfect stat illuvials are not so rare anymore. It is easy to fuse lots of 50% stats. We have just started the game and most of illuvials are already 50% stats

[crisp pier]

i disagree with the It Should be Expensive. ... That doesn't properly represent the game design. Making it expensive just means you take your spenders out of the marketplace and funnel their money to the revenues while leaving those who can't spend behind. That makes little game design sense at all. It should either be part of the game and costed so everyone has access to it or it shouldn't be . Pricing for WHALES only furthers to create more balance.

[gritty pasture]

It was the same with the mastershard and with the auto-scanning.
But mostly with the mastershards. How many people said that it should be removed as it is not good for the economy to be able to have a guaranteed capture?
But the team made it work. Not for every capture, but one in 1000.
Same with stats. Make it work for 1 in 1000 illuvials

[sinful kelp]

My take after reading all the threads about this is we don't need to change stats. Things are fine as they are. Having a surplus of illuvials is a good thing, either for the ascendant mode or for the future when our playerbase increases.

[crisp pier]

I think we're approaching this the wrong way. Instead of trying to redesign the entire game economy, let's focus on the core issue. If the problem is "I want perfect Illuvials," then the solution is simple: go out and catch them or fuse them! That's what the game is all about, and it keeps the experience engaging and rewarding.

If the concern is that the Leviathan Gauntlet feels unbalanced, maybe we should wait until further in the alpha testing phase before making drastic changes. A lot of the imbalance seems to be coming from levels, not stats. Perhaps adding a burning system to grant XP or other ways to gain experience could help address this.

On the topic of stats, if they're proving to be overpowered, the current implementation gives flexibility to adjust their impact. The game already allows stats with values from 0 to 5 to provide any percentage boost the developers want—from the current 10% all the way down to 1%. So there's plenty of room for balancing adjustments without needing to change the core mechanics.

But I don’t quite understand the rush to change a core gameplay element like "Catch and Fuse." That’s the heart of Illuvium, and it's what makes the game so compelling in the first place. Let's not lose sight of that!

[gritty pasture]

We don't need, but lots of players want it (as seen in the number of posts)
How can we solve this?

[sinful kelp]

what they ask for is a burning mechanism, and that doesn't need to be tied to stats. Kieran mentioned d1sk fragments from burnt illuvials. I would also take substance for it.

[gritty pasture]

That would be dope 🔥

[crisp pier]

The fact that people want re-rolls doesn’t mean we should implement them. As I’ve mentioned before, players often seek quick gratification—like using cheat codes—but once they get it, they quickly lose interest in the game. We can’t let that happen here. The desire for perfectly stated Illuvials is a good thing because it's a major driving force behind the gameplay. It's what keeps players engaged and invested. We can’t afford to make that process easier, as it would only shorten the gameplay loop and reduce the long-term enjoyment.

Instead, we should focus on finding ways to give value to Illuvials with less desirable stats. Implementing an XP burning system could provide a great use for them. Game modes like Ascendant, where stats don’t matter and simply owning the Illuvial is what counts, could also help.

Ultimately, we need to recognize when to say no because it’s the right decision for the game's long-term health. All the top players in chat will tell you that stat re-rolls are a bad idea because they understand the importance of keeping the core gameplay intact.

[gritty pasture]

The main issue with stats seem to be in competitive scenes
I don't think that if i would have full stat illuvials i would be able to beat a skilled player.
Maybe some rules depending on tournaments would solve the stat issue.
As i don't think i can say in a ranked match that i lost to viper because his illuvials had 20% more atk speed

[sinful kelp]

Exactly. And let's not forget the team is saying that seeing stats before capturing is a bug. Therefore we should expect stats to not be visible in the future. Making good stat illuvials even rarer.

[gritty pasture]

True. It might go like you see the illuvial, you fight it, and only after you capture it you can see what you've got
But then how will people that come after the update feel about us, that took advantage of this bug until now?

[sinful kelp]

it's OG privilege. It's the same with everyone farming a ton biodatas before the scanning nerf happened.

I don't see however how they're going to make the change without receiving some backlash from the community.

Maybe it'll only change when they implement illuvial combat.

[crisp pier]

The primary competitive modes should be stat-neutral, with all stats starting at a base of 3. This gives the team the flexibility to balance Illuvials that are either underperforming or overperforming by tweaking their base stats in this mode. Yes, we definitely need Leviathan modes for those who love hunting for perfect stats, but if we’re aiming for a true e-sport, stats can't make up 45% of an Illuvial's power—that just doesn’t work.

Let’s have plenty of Leviathan tournaments for the rare hunters, but core ranked modes and big tournaments should focus on Ascendant-style play. We could also introduce a Gauntlet mode similar to Ascendant, where Illuvial levels are used but their stats are normalized. This keeps the gameplay fair while still rewarding those who have leveled up their Illuvials.

By doing this, we ensure that perfect stats aren't central to the game. While they can still offer an edge, they won't be absolutely required to compete at the highest levels, making them special but not game-breaking.

[gritty pasture]

How will this affect the future gameplay?
Now it is relatively cheap to buy a few illuvials with 3 or 4 max stats and gamble them on fusing.
In the future if we can't see the stats and the perfect stats will be more scarce, won't there be more frustration from the playerbase because they can't get closer to whales?

[crisp pier]

We need something that shows stats maybe they can add something that lets you scan illuval stats. I think being able to check stats prior to capture should be something you can do ( maybe a drone attachment).

[supple depot]

You are absolutely right.

[agile ferry]

regarding this, there are numerous other ways to burn bad stat illuvials without making such a detremental impact to the marketplace/game that its cons outweigh pros.

for example: you can burn illuvials to transfer its XP onto another illuvial of its same illuvial stage/tier.

also, it is a choice to even capture a bad stat illuvial... you can see the stats before capturing so if one doesnt like a bad stat illuvial, dont capture it.

and if you fuse illuvials and get a bad stat.. well.. thats why its called a gamble. some you win some you lose.
im sure they dont complain when the fuse gets them a near perfect one.

[mental wagon]

This will be the only thing I add to this discussion.

We shouldn’t conflate a “burn mechanic” and a “reroll mechanic” as they both have different objectives.

To get to the crux of this, the discussion should be solely focused on a reroll mechanic and what the objective is, the intended and unintended consequences of that mechanic.

[sinful kelp]

no reroll mechanic please. If you're not satisfied with the illuvial you have, you can either go to the marketplace or travel to the OW and capture another one.

[crisp pier]

Some facts for you guys getting a perfect stated illuvial is a 1 in 46,656 getting a perfect stated except movemnt is a 1 in 7,776 , Yesterday someone caught a perfect stated Lura ( Holo) and was able to instantly sell that within HOURS for $200 USD. That sort of gameplay loop where going into OW has HUGE possible rewards would be destroyed with any sort of stat re-roll and peoples desire to go into OW would be destroyed. Just one real life example as to why we can' t do stat re-rolls. ( And NO making it really expensive just means the whale wouldn't have needed to pay the 200 usd )

[stray onyx]

what if you could only bump up stats by so much say like 75% perfect?

so even if you burn illuvials to re roll you can never get a perfect stat illuvial

[uncut fractal]

One possible option that I would like people to consider: Building a trainer gym in Zero could allow that person to lease out time in their gym for a single illuvial to boost a single random stat. This would give value to landholders and provide some extra decision making space.

I’ve always been either against the boosting, or having it be a really light touch. I don’t like the idea of “reroll” because it makes no sense lore wise. But having a single random stat go up by one could be interesting. It would also benefit those that got a high roll on a less important stat since that one couldn’t be chosen.

It would spread the range of stats, and be mostly used on high end illuvials. This would leave low end ones alone and cheap for playing the game and collecting.

Since it wouldn’t be a randomiser, the net effect would be that on average all illuvials would go up by some fraction (with higher illuvials going up by closer to 1) so it wouldn’t distort the market much at all.

The biggest negative would be that a natural perfect roll would be less valuable since getting one point off perfect would be the same thing (except you’d pay the landholder to get it). That could be mitigated slightly by increasing the time required based on the current roll quality. Getting perfect is always really rare, so I’m not sure right now that it is a huge drawcard. But if the odds were better (ie, you only need to get one off perfect) then maybe it incentivises people more, even though perfects would slightly drop in value. (That drop would depend on the cost)

In any case I’m certainly not advocating for this. Just trying to see if there are ways that would make it an enjoyable thing.

From a lore perspective I really like putting an Atlas into a Dragonball style Gravity Chamber and coming out more buff. And I like the idea of linking Zero and Overworld more so there is more communication.

But if there isn’t a satisfying way to do it, then we shouldn’t do it.

[hearty tinsel]

I have always thought the ideas work better together than seperated. We already have a reroll system in the game with fusing and it's a controlled environment system. If u have to do the same conditions as fusing to reroll I dont see how that breaks lore @uncut fractal . You are fusing 3 illuvials together and potentially making it stronger, like the fusion works now, just with an evolution blocking agent.

The argument that only good stat illuvials will be on the market is a delusional statement. If people see a fast profit market with the bad stat illuvials then people are going to keep replenishing that market until supply outmeets demand again.

[mental wagon]

What is the problem being solved with:

• a burn mechanic
• a reroll mechanic (outside of fusing)

[icy vine]

How big of an effect are the bonus stats supposed to have on the overall gameplay anyways?

[gritty pasture]

• A burn mechanic solves the overpopulation of illuvials. I have so many that i dont need and cant sell them because its not even worth the time to click on them (like crypto. It is better to have fewer and more valuable than billions of memecoins. Now we have meme illuvials. They are not even worth a dollar. A burn will make them worth a little more)
• a reroll mechanic makes endgame achievable i suppose

[mental wagon]

This is why I previously mentioned breaking them down into 2 separate mechanics.

The problem being addressed is very clear for a burn mechanic.

The reroll mechanic, not so much. Or is often being conflated with the burn mechanic which shouldn't be done.

[rugged vortex]

In my opinion stats shouldn't be touched in any way at all and better stats should only come from farming the OW. That being said I think we definitely need some way to engage and enhance our illuvials as a progression system.

For example burning illuvials for substance, which can have many uses. One of them can be to infuse the illuvials with it through the zero gym chamber or otherwise and enhance their omega? Or as we keep infusing the illuvial, it unlocks 3 different variations of it's omega on different progression checkpoints?

That way stats remain OW's domain, while we at the same time we introduce illuvials progression+burning mechanism without touching stats. It will also open up so many different team comp variations, copy pasta in ascendant will be a thing of the past.

In the end players will hunt good stat illuvials through the OW and part of the floor illuvials will go towards enhancing the good stat ones.

[icy vine]

I agree about some kind of progression system but I still hate the stat/catch system we currently have. Yes it makes for rarer Illuvials and higher value spreads but it's terrible from a gameplay perspective. I don't think I'd ever feel good about progressing a mid stat Illuvial knowing one day I'll probably dispose of it as soon as I get a better copy. It's like pulling a Charizard from a pack of pokemon cards only to find out it's a 2/5 and isn't good enough or if Ash finds a better Pikachu he'd go and burn his original one because there's no point keeping it since it's weaker. It's just too many layers of RNG and is completely antithetical to a "bond with your Illuvial" design philosophy or any game that isn't just pure gambling.

One core feature of live service games is that the starting points should be relatively equal but the progression should be more in the players control mixed with some RNG. So if I catch an Illuvial I want, I should mainly be thinking of how I can make it better, not how I'll eventually dispose of it because there's a chance there'll be a better version out there.

[rugged vortex]

Well there are modes where stats will be meaningless, and those will probably end up being the most popular ones, unless the team heavily incentivizes leviathan.

Also if you develop a mid-stat illuvial which you later wanna swap for a better stat one, you can just sell the old one with all it's progression and start building up the new one.

Personally, I don't see a big issue here.

[icy vine]

I guess it depends on how the other game modes go. It's why I asked earlier how big of an impact the stats have overall. If stats only matter for whale-centric game modes then I wouldn't care at all.

[cunning breach]

Burn Illuvials to increase stats:
No way. This will lead to the limit being reached very quickly, and everything will return to where it started.

Burn Illuvials to reroll stats:
Looks much more logical. For example: we have some kind of building where we add three identical iluvials (ebb+ebb+ebb for example) with any stats. We pay for fuel and possibly a resource (essence, gem, etc.). Crafting. And at the end we get the same ONE illuvial, but with characteristics chosen again completely randomly. The likelihood of getting a 300% illuvial is almost zero, so this should not flood the market with ideal illuvials, and the burn will be very large.

Although I am still not a supporter of changing the stats of illuvials in any way. As written above: if you want better illuvial, go catch/buy/fuse
But I am a supporter of the need for a system of burning illuvials.

Reduce the impact of stats:
This is actually a very difficult moment. On the one hand, eSports requires equal conditions for players. Otherwise it becomes PayToWin. On the other hand, we are in web3, where nothing is free. If you want to play in tournaments, then you need to go out and catch/buy yourself a deck. But I would consider this moment a separate topic from everything else. Because there is a problem with this. Imbalance of decks, rarity of perfect illuvials, etc.

[rugged vortex]

Stats only matter for leviathan modes or the whale mode. In the other modes, they are standardized for every illuvial and you compete on the same playing field with everyone else.

[icy vine]

That's good to know.

Then let the whales feast! I'm on board with not doing anything with stats or only minor enhancements, then 🤣

[agile ferry]

stay away from touching the stats in any way shape or form. This thread has more downvotes than average for a reason. it is a bad idea. the illuvial stats should not be touched outside of what already exists, fusing.

like for Gods sake, can we keep something rare for once in this game

At this point, i call for an emergency town hall regarding this matter, because you guys are on route to make an extremely detremental unnecessary decision that will hurt the overworld, illuvial rarity, and marketplace.

[uncut fractal]

If you are going to quote me I'd prefer if you actually read what I said.

In any case I’m certainly not advocating for this.

[agile ferry]

its time to make the game actually fun, engaging, active ,etc rather than adding more pay to cheat, extracting from players ideas with the excuse of "it will be expensive"

[icy vine]

Honestly, I think that one tidbit of information just now changed my whole perspective on this ecosystem. If the stats only matter for Leviathan game modes, us plebs shouldn't care about the stats unless you're wanting to compete with giants. The whales are basically supplying the marketplace with NFTs in their search for the rarest Illuvials. We should really just be coveting different games and different ways to use our Illuvials in. Forget about changing the stats. Those are whale problems.

[agile ferry]

stat rerolls or anything remotely close to touching the stats is one of THE WORST MOVES you can possibly make rn.
im literally on every day and night, 90% of the players playing competitive and in market DO NOT WANT and ARE NOT for touching stats.

1. Ranked Casual/Leviathan Gauntlet
2. Tournaments/Leaderboards
3. Be on top of bugs, hot fixes, not 1 time per month, but on the daily. We cant have tournaments/ranks with 1 month of broken/bugged augments like we have right now.
4. Sanctum Mesa spawning with players/rangers WITH proximity voice chat

IMO, everything else outside of focusing on making the competitive scene engaging that actually brings value to the illuvials we find in overworld should just be secondary. This stat reroll stuff will destroy it all in due time if implemented, mark my words.

[supple depot]

@agile ferry @icy vine Greetings, friends.

You are absolutely right in your thoughts, and I completely agree with you. Any changes to Illuvial stats cause significant damage to the market. We are already seeing the decline in their prices and living in a collapsed market.

Destroying the value and uniqueness of Illuvials with perfect stats is unacceptable, as people have invested their belief and effort in them.

As it was aptly noted: "Can we not keep something rare in this game for once?"

Illuvial stats should remain untouchable and long-lasting. Constant changes to the fundamental aspects of the game only discourage investors, making investments in Illuvials less attractive.

Regarding the opinion that changing stats by 1 point wouldn't harm the market, I completely disagree. An Illuvial with 290% stats and one with 300% differ greatly in price. And that's normal — that's how the market works.

I am strongly against any interference with Illuvial stats.

[sinful kelp]

@uncut fractal if seeing stats before capture it's a bug and not a feature why not fix it?

[gritty pasture]

Maybe they will change it when combat is live, so there is no need to make extra work now.
I believe that when you engage in combat you can't see it's stats. So that will be the "fix".

[gritty pasture]

This is one of the best insights i have read about stats.
I hope that whatever decision is taken, will be in the benefit of the game, even if it will be detrimental for some of us

[uncut fractal]

Bingo

[uncut fractal]

That was the point of my post. The only possible fun way I could see this working is to connect it to Zero. Then you’re either using your own land, or talking to someone else. There’s a sense of progression. Put your illuvial in a gravity chamber and let them get jacked (I’ve suggested literally only allowing one random stat to go up one level).

Maybe this gives a better sense of bonding. You pick that one special one and grow it.

[agile ferry]

you can do that for XP gain.

[uncut fractal]

I’m throwing that out there as my devil’s advocate. If that isn’t wanted then I am struggling to see a way to make it work. And that’s fine by me.

[uncut fractal]

I think that would be a bad idea. We want you PLAYING to grow in exp.

[agile ferry]

i agree, personally i wouldnt touch either XP or Stats.

[uncut fractal]

Exp is free. Just play. It’s equal for all illuvials. Paying to skip the game sucks, in my opinion.

[agile ferry]

exactly, i was heavily advocating against Auto Scan before release.

[uncut fractal]

I’m just saying there is a clear difference between the two. It doesn’t mean it works for either. I’m just putting out an idea.

Outside of this conversation I’ve spent almost no time on this. It’s not something the team are all working on. We have more important things.

[agile ferry]

yes of course, which is why i say dont touch stats whatsover but if anything you can do XP, because as you said difference between the two, and that major difference is rarity. so we will be messing with rarity, and that is a no-no

right now people go into Overworld for 2 main reasons:

1. Capture high/rare stat illuvials
2. Level up XP for illuvials.

If we destroy #1... yeah thats horendous for overworld, fuel, market, all of it

[uncut fractal]

Technically it’s really fine. The ONLY rarity that is messed with is perfect stats.

Everything else, at worst, would be moving a single stat up.

In any case that’s enough devil’s advocate on something I don’t really care about.

[agile ferry]

even a single stat ruins it all.
right now when you find a stage 1 with good stats its amazing because its untouchable.
the second you mess with that it just loses its wow factor.

with other stages its makes it much easier to get better stats with fusing.
also, fusing is technically "rolling stats"
if one doesnt like their stats, go into the marketplace and buy 3 others or go into Overworld and farm 3 others.
roll again.

[supple depot]

Illuvials are perfect in their pristine form. Can’t catch or fuse the perfect Illuvial? Then be ready to feed the market with your money or devote your time to the Overworld. There should be no third option. The current model is flawless.

[agile ferry]

https://tenor.com/view/no-flames-fire-gif-3530798

@uncut fractal add Voice Chat to sanctum mesa when rangers running around and also to gauntlet/arena. trust =]

[uncut fractal]

Not sure about voice chat for gauntlet.

[agile ferry]

always have a mute button if anything.
for gauntlet you can do it so that not all 8 are talking at same time, you only hear the person your fighting against in the round.

gotta have content for streamers.

@uncut fractal need to hear kieran when he gets tilted in leviathan

[agile ferry]

@uncut fractal also, i believe 80% (if not more) players would agree that Lights Chosen and Meteoric Onslaught augments need to be nerfed at least say 25% or so just so we see how that is balanced in Gauntlet. IMO it will make a better experience. Warpwave can be in that discussion, but not as much as those other 2

[uncut fractal]

Patch to sepolia by tomorrow I believe. Should on main next week.

And we actually have another patch after that ready as well.

Going to try both and see how they feel.

[agile ferry]

https://tenor.com/view/wrestler-woo-stoked-crazy-excited-gif-4961243

[rustic burrow]

https://tenor.com/view/thats-huge-enormous-thats-big-huge-linus-gif-25856235

[agile ferry]

@uncut fractal btw, to me burning illuvials for cosmetics makes more sense than anything else thus far

if you want to incorporate Beyond into Overworld, you can do burn illuvial to get random Beyond pfp, for that season or whatever. Burn 4 Beyond etc

[agile ferry]

btw, what is the MAX Level for an illuvial?

[crisp pier]

If you need trianing Gyms tie it to something else like XP ( LIke the Pokemon Day Care in Pokemon) The longer it stays the more xp it gets . I like tie ins between the games. But stat adjustments are Honestly WORSE than stat rerolls becuase they only ever go Up. Stat re-rolls atleast still force you into that 1 in 46k rolls Scenario. or 1 in 7600 for perfect stats minus movement speed. So the Odds of Getting perfect are still crazy bad. The problem with stat rolls is people would keep rolling different stage 1 and stage 2 and then use fusing to try to get a perfect stated illuvial with 3 that have different perfect stats.

[crisp pier]

This argument right here is Exactly why we don't want stat re-rolls playing to get the best Stats by fusing or catching IS the game right now. Paying to do it is MUCH worse than paying to get XP ( which you can get from winning ranked ascedant games )

[agile ferry]

nonetheless my stance is simply NO rerolls and NO burn to XP.

you can Burn to get skins/cosmetics/battleboards/emotes

this will keep things at its rarity, making things valuable, in which makes people want to get the fuel to find them in overworld.
the moment you make these things too easy and quick, they become less valueable, and once it comes to a point where to cost of the runs just outweigh what you find, its done for.

people are farming overworld now because they can find numerous things that can make them easy $50-100 and some more rare $500+
you do not want to mess that up. when you spoon feed and make it all quicker and easier, there is a consenquence, and that consenquence will cost us everything.

[crisp pier]

I agree with the idea of no rerolls and no stat boosts, but I still believe that XP as a burn reward offers significant value. XP helps streamline progression without undermining the core gameplay loop, which is crucial for maintaining competitive integrity. It also removes the time gatekeeping that can prevent players from progressing at a satisfying pace. While I understand the importance of preserving rarity, offering XP as a burn reward creates a meaningful pathway for players to level up and engage in competitive play faster. It’s not about making things too easy but about providing a tangible reward that adds value without devaluing the core experience.

[main hollow]

ill burn some rotas for xp

[sinful kelp]

rotas are the best...

[crisp pier]

I would make the Burn system Burn A Iluvial to add XP to another of thes same line Stage 1 - 4000xp , Stage 2- 20k XP , Stage 3 - 40k xp ( Or the amount of xp the ilvuial has if higher) but you burn a Rota to add xp to other stages of ROTA

[agile ferry]

They can also add something like User Account Level. Where you level up your account by experience, runs, etc and add burning illuvials as XP points for account leveling up

and you can do certain perks for reaching certain levels, like 10, 25, 50, 100, etc
you can earn d1sks, emotes, skins, badges, etc whatever

like for every Overworld run you earn XP on your account, of course stage 3 higher than stage 2, stage 2 higher than stage 1, etc

[sinful kelp]

this I agree, I would like for the regions to unlock based on the player's account level. The way we had the regions unlock and unravelled the lore was pretty meaningless. Having it tied to each player's account would be way more impactful.

[agile ferry]

example from another game i played

things like this will give you another reason to grind overworld, play arena, etc outside of finding illuvials, and doesnt harm the marketplace/rarities in any way

[royal wagon]

Even so, I'd rather see this as a once-per-lifetime-per-illuvial feature. It should never result in a +5. Maybe +2 if you are 0/+1 and +1 for 2/3. It would make useless illuvials (the ones everyone wants to burn) into potentially useful ones. That's the only problem I see that needs "fixed," imo ...

Want a perfect? Hunt or fuse them. Full stop.

Want to give a useless Illuvial a chance to be your 3rd string Fighter? Fine. Talk to a Zero player, toss them into a Doka Dojo to increase attack power a little bit. Or a Fliish Targeting Range to increase Omega.

Outside of this, I agree with the majority. No change or very slight change only, please.

[agile ferry]

personally, i have refrained myself from buying from the marketplace as much until it is clear that messing with stats is not going to happen.

[uncut fractal]

Well my “devil’s advocate” version was “pay landholders, only increase ONE random stat and only by ONE point ONE time and no increase can make you perfect.”

[royal wagon]

Then we are almost perfectly aligned. 🙂

[normal pawn]

What about a 0.5 point increase to a random stat? IDK if 4.5 is buildable easily into the system, but it would protect the rarity of perfect stat illuvials while allowing a near perfect illuvial a chance to get slightly closer to perfect. A very light touch that adds a revenue stream and landholder value while protecting illuvial stat rarity

[agile ferry]

no one can give a great answer to why we absolutely need stat rerolls.
because we simply dont need it.

If it’s not broken, then there’s no need to break it

were not out here trying to make Leviathan become another casual.
with rolling stats and making everything near perfect, it just becomes another casual mode.

if having a bunch of upvotes give reason to implement something, im pretty sure what the opposite of that should tell you.

[main hollow]

ive played a few gacha P2W games
imo the most destructive feature is the equipment enchant (+1, +2, ..., +9)
whales can just buy the mats from dev and skip the whole economy.
while leviathan is P2W, the current system of capturing, fusing and leveling is good. Our current P2W system is actually inclusive, meaning everyone has equal chance to produce maxed level perfect stat illuvials.

imo offering stat rerolls from paying fuel and/or burning illuvials is the fastest way to destroy the economy

[icy vine]

Can we consider changing the discussion to implementing different layers of progression instead of revamping the bonus stats system?

https://discord.com/channels/760344898200666112/1291608494692241541

[agile ferry]

someone paid for fuel, to go into an overworld run, found a perfect holo lura, and sold it for nearly $200 in that very moment...
and you guys want to take this away by touching stats.. its actually mind boggling.

This is untouchable, the moment you make it touchable, you screw the whole system, rarity, wow factor. all of it.
yeah, once you mess with touching stats, nobody paying you $200 anymore for that ill tell you that much.

Stay away from messing with the stats.

[uncut fractal]

Technically possible.

[agile ferry]

once again: Why do we NEED to touch stats?

[merry marsh]

But this Training Grounds GFP got approved and is all about gaining XP in Zero https://discord.com/channels/760344898200666112/1265287128095395861

What I also don‘t understand: With unlimited levelling, stats will get less and less important over time, since the percentages are applied to the base stat and this does not not increase with levelling. Except for movement and attack speed I don‘t really see stats as very important in the long run. Or do I miss something ?

[uncut fractal]

We don’t.

[normal pawn]

I think alternative leveling/progression systems for illuvials is the way to go.

• Give f2p players a chance to level up illuvials through playing.
• Give medium spenders a training gym to accelerate the level up system.
• Give whales a training gym to accelerate leveling even faster. Allow burning poor stats illuvials for a temporary (4 hours?) 1.5x exp earning bonus for the next x hours of play. Leave the 6 RNG stats alone.
• Give more choice to the leveling system where you choose how much of your stat gain per level goes to each base stat. It gets so difficult to level after level 40 that it won't power creep to a point that the base stats are insignificant.

I feel like a lot of players even with medium stat illuvials are going to want to play Leviathan just to enjoy using their own personal illuvials, part of the charm is that most people won't have all max stats illuvials. If you want to earn $$$ in Leviathan tournaments or top 10 in leaderboards, it makes sense that you should have to buy expensive illuvials to compete. For the players that just want to compete based on skill alone and not break the bank, isn't that what Ascendant is for? Own the illuvial and be on your way.

No base stat rerolls or upgrades are needed to incorporate training gyms or illuvial burning. Just apply the points to a secondary system that helps but not so much that it breaks the importance of the base stats.

[merry marsh]

Is there a max level ?

[normal pawn]

There can be. I'm more of a fan of having limitless levels, but scale the exp so exponentially that you create a soft cap. Level 1-2 takes one battle to level up, level 40 takes about a day? Maybe level 50 should take a month, level 60 should take a year per level. Something along that line, it would have to be balanced with some real consideration.

The reason for a soft cap is so you always see the bar move and get the dopamine hit. I like that in games.

[merry marsh]

It is already being discussed #❓❗〕community-help message

That would answer my question about stats being less important. They are important, if levelling becomes exponentially harder. But I still don‘t understand why Aaron thinks XP should only be gained in play and not in Training Gyms, when we already have this GFP.

[normal pawn]

Training gyms would make sense to me, it's just paying to have a landholder level for you. You still wouldn't (shouldn't) be able to beat the exponential leveling difficulty, just pay for 1:1 time leveling in gyms vs battling yourself

[merry marsh]

I see one really important reason for a stat increase (a limited one Aaron proposed) : My Illuvial that I have played for months and years and has a real history and emotionally bonding should be able to advance its stats. It might cost a lot, can only be done once every few months, will never reach perfect stats etc. But at least allow me to buy an Illuvial now with the guarantee that I can evolve it over time and that I don‘t have to sell it for a better one, when I want to play Leviathan or be better in OW combat/battle.

A temporary boost of XP or stats is a good idea. You can either pay for this boost every time you play Leviathan or buy a perfect stat and don‘t have to pay for boosts anymore.

[icy vine]

That's one of the reasons I don't like the bonus stats systems we have now, but I think since we're so locked in with it as the core of Illuvium, we should consider incorporating alternative progression systems FIRST and then think of a way to solve that problem after.

For example, if we add a layer of progression in the form of an equippable item, you could just essentially "swap gear" to your new Illuvial with higher bonus stats. That equippable could have a higher impact on your base stats than just by leveling your Illuvial so it wouldn't feel so bad if you had to start at a low level again. Maybe we can give it a cost to swap in the form of fuel and other resources. That would also introduce another possible fuel sink.

[merry marsh]

Interesting idea. Although it adds another layer of complexity.

[icy vine]

Yes it does, but if it's interesting and has a good purpose, I say the complexity is a good thing

[merry marsh]

Okay, we are just collecting ideas here, and it is definitely an idea 🙂

Unfortunately we are discussing this again after it has been implemented. I wonder when the time comes that Aaron posts his specifications for us to discuss before they get implemented.

But judging by his cryptical answer to my question this will probably never happen.

[icy vine]

True. It is what it is I suppose. I think he mentioned he'd be running ideas through the community from now on so we might see more discussion before implementations

I've also started a new thread to talk about new progression systems outside of bonus stats. I think it's a healthier way to move forward as it's pretty clear the bonus stats system is said and done.

https://discord.com/channels/760344898200666112/1291608494692241541

[normal pawn]

I just hope the team is reading this discussion, creating a list to evaluate, and validating/invalidating each one internally. I'm fine with all of my ideas not being used or told they won't work or are dumb, but it would be nice to have an AMA where they discuss all of the community ideas and why they were evaluated to work or not work. It would certainly help the community to see the team's reasoning, so that we aren't beating a dead horse thinking ideas haven't been analyzed and invalidated as an option. The insight would also help us understand their direction and what is possible, so we can throw more specific ideas. The beauty of a DAO... It is pretty awesome getting responses from a co-founder, feels like your words have some level of meaning.

[agile ferry]

and again, weve been able to see the stats of illuvials before we even capture them, so if you dont like bad stat illuvials at all, dont capture them. you can still fuse very good stat illuvials with bad stats if you get lucky, but yeah, dont grab bad stat illuvials if you dont like the stats. Regardless im certain some burning mechanism will be implemented for the bad statted ones to be burned, im just hoping the team actually has their brain cells in tact to not make such a terrible decision as stat rerolls.

even if it wasnt burning for stats, regardless, we shouldnt be touching stats not even a single bit. The format is beautiful now, all we need to do is create demand for the game and that only comes through the competitive scene getting stronger.

Trust me, there is no tens of thousands that are screaming and waiting for a game to do stat rerolls to finally join LMFAO.

Concentrate on what actually matters and dont break what isnt broken.

looking forward to the next patch

both Casual Gauntlet and Leviathan Gauntlet are very important and serve their own purpose.
Make the casual so good that people want to own their own illuvials for Leviathan.

Casual needs to be so good that it makes TFT look amateur.

Leviathan will naturally be better at that point.
Even now, leviathan just feels much more appealing.
Im decent at both, this is no biased, there is definitely a sense of attachment when playing leviathan, that casual mode doesnt have.

eventually were going to have to add visual effects to the illuvials, for example putting a Titans Redound augment on an illuvial, that illuvial gonna have a nice shield armour around it as soon as you place the augment on it, when placing Lights Chosen, the illuvials shine with bright light, when placing warpwave the illuvial should have a hurrican type water circling around it, you get the picture/drift

also the details need to be more noticeable, like when adding gain 10% Health Execution augment, there no indication of it anywhere that it has 10% execution, does predator now have 20% if you add it on them? maybe that should be in the illuvial detail when you click SHIFT on the illuvial it can show what additional ability it has etc

when you add those armours, and whatever for augments you can than have cosmetics for them, when you add drone blasts, etc all of this stuff you can use illuvials to burn and get special cosmetics for them.
theres just sooo many things that can be done with burning illuvials to get other things worth it.

so with that said, no reason to do stat reroll and diminish the 1 thing thats actually doing well in illuvium, which in the end, is completely unnecessary in the first place.

[crisp pier]

Ok I'm going to start this by Saying I DO NOT WANT stat re-rolls but i ran some math if we required you to burn 3 of the same illuvial to re-roll its stats and we BURNED 100% of the available illuvals ( even including tier 0's ) then this would be the mathmatical effect for reference
Approximately 21 perfect-statted Illuvials would be created (based on the 1 in 46,656 odds). (This include stage 0's)
Approximately 132 nearly perfect Illuvials would be created (based on the 1 in 7,600 odds).
This shows that even with a large pool of Illuvial, perfect Illuvials remain quite rare

These calculation represent a burn down calculator for example u reroll and get bad stats and use it again in your next re-roll and so on So I will be Honest i Don't think a Burn Mechanism kills the Markets as to be honest you are spending more on avearge to create the perfect stat than it would cost to buy it . As long as the stat re-roll retains the same orginal odds. While i still don't like the concept of a stat adjustment. It could be implemented in a way as to burn off bad stated illuvals and increase the interactions with OW to farm more stated Illuvals. At this rate crafting a perfect stated illuval tier 1 would cost nearly 120,000x the floor price of an illuval (on average) , or 24,000 x the floor price for a perfect minus movement speed.

[bold orbit]

while that is true and looks like impact is super low, it still has a big impact. You can take a zero stat illuvial for floorprice and with a couple rerols you can make it into an ok or even good-ish stat illuvial. With that you basically eliminate bad stat illuvials in competitive modes and just have good-perfect stats. If there are no bad stat illuvials, having perfect stats has less of an impact than it has now.

[merry marsh]

But who is going to play with bad stats Illuvials in competitive modes ? How much fun is this knowing you have bad Illuvials ? We either ignore stats or expect perfect stats in Leviathan, which is basically also ignoring stats, because everyone playing Leviathan will have almost perfect stats.

[bold orbit]

that's like saying there exist just 2200+ rating chess players, because everyone else can't win anyway.

[merry marsh]

But with chess every figure on the board has equal stats. When I buy my first Illuvial for 20 cents and I know it is really bad and I can not improve its stats. Why would I buy it ?

[icy vine]

I mean, you technically just don't need to play on a board with different pieces that carry different RNG bonus stats to them... As soon as I realized that, this whole ecosystem just made so much more sense to me

[merry marsh]

Hm, could you explain more ?

[icy vine]

As far as I understand it, bonus stats only apply to Leviathan versions of game modes. So let's say we're playing on that same chess board. There's 2 versions we could play. We can play the regular version where we just have to have a copy of an Illuvial and we both start with equal powered pieces, or we could play the Leviathan version where suddenly the bonus stats also matter and our pieces will have differing power levels.

If we want to play fair and square with normalized pieces, we play the non Leviathan mode of chess

[crisp pier]

Your missing the point the argument was made that adding re-rolls would devalue the perfect stated ones but greatly increase their supply. The math says otherwise. Its fine to have other arugments against stat re-rolls but saying it would crash the economy or make perfect stats less valuable does not work "Mathmatically" and also its fair to assume that only decent to good stats are going to be played espically higher levels of competieve play increase. Arguing against this and saying you want pepole to have less stated illuvals is an argument that you DON"T want a play to win you want a PAY to win enviorment which is NOT an e-sport its an investment strategyy

[crisp pier]

Yours and OTHER people who keep pushing this are missing a key peice your STILL gatekeeping Levithan mode wether other modes exist or not. Is Levithan mode meant to be an E-Sport or a Whale Mode as long as we proprely define this and design for it either is fine but E-sport = Whale Mode?

If Levithan is Not meant to be a E-sport than yes this is fine. however Now our-sport thats meant to bring TONS of people into the game has no actuall tie to OWNING illuvial and does NO good for the eco system. So basically its buy perfect stats or Buy nothing becuase you don't need them . This makes 0 Since from a busniess decision

[sinful kelp]

I think leviathan was never meant to be the esport game.

[bold orbit]

it will devalue it is just a question by how much.
Perfect stat illuvials don't just get devalued with flooding the market with perfect stat illuvials, but also if you flood it with medium stat illuvials.

[crisp pier]

This is a completly valid answer

[crisp pier]

Levithan mode being Whale Mode only and stats having no impact in any other mode will also Decrease its value once people realize theirs no reason to play Anything other than perfect or Near perfect stats ?

So i Think the Bigger Question we may want to start Asking is how do we transition these "F2P" Esport Gauntlet players into OW, Zero, Arena , Beyond becuase levithan is like the top of the hill very few are going to jump in and go heay i wanta go spends 1,000 of usd on illuvals to get a full deck of perfect illuvals to play in levithan gauntlet

I mean ideally we would get such a huge influx of players we could support 3 modes of gauntlet ( casual , Ownership with levels and balanced stats , and levithan ) but that seems hard and keeping entry point low at first seems key

I would imagine the plan is F2P---> Cosmetics ( Holos, Dark Holo, Emotes , Avatars, Battle Boards ) ---> Arena Ascedant ( Ownerhsip ) ---- > OverWorld Farming For Ownership --> Levithan ?

[merry marsh]

Yes, this makes sense to us. But imagine that YouTuber who gets into Illuvium for the first time and looks at the stats on IlluviDex. Whatever he wants to buy as a beginner will have bad stats and later he might learn that he will also be stuck with them. Then he learns they don‘t really matter unless he wants to play Leviathan. Just a succession of bad experiences.

[crisp pier]

In reality the Bad Stats are a Problem adding the Stat Rankings to the illuvals in Illuval dex will help witht his

[gritty pasture]

I have a feeling that sometime in the future, we will have this discussions again..
Something isn't right

[merry marsh]

The plan sounds correct, but this requires a lot of education and hand holding. A beginner might have to start with a trimmed down F2P Arena install on Epic to remove all the complexity.

[merry marsh]

Absolutely, this will haunt us. Normal gamers will not see the big picture and look at the NFT money grab instead.

[gritty pasture]

Maybe it's too early
Let's see how competitions work, how many player % we'll have on leviathan vs casual
We need more data

[hearty tinsel]

I dont think it's about bigger picture. If we have 49k people playing casual tournament and 1k people playing Leviathan, the rewards are going to go where the player count is. By not having a good progression system the people wanting to keep good stat illuvials rare are going to destroy their own value.

[icy vine]

I do agree, and again that's why I never claimed to like this stat/catch system. It's what detracted me from playing OW in the first place knowing it's just a straight up RNG. But it's a bit too late to change that so we should make it more clear that this is how it works so new players don't get confused and go through the same struggles

[gritty pasture]

We need to abuse the dopamine received by players.
Do we focus on the dopamine received by rng or the dopamine received from achievements?
Right now we try to get that rng perfect catch/fuse and ignore the addiction of grinding to achieve something
Maybe we should use a combination of them

[sinful kelp]

right now it's not that RNG as you say, since you can see the stats before capture. It will be in the future though when illuvial combat comes and no stats are visible.

[gritty pasture]

One idea is that maybe the stats aren't all unlocked at first. Transform it into potential.
So you start at 0% bonus and work your way until you reach those bonus stats you get
This would solve the bonding and progression sentiment.

[merry marsh]

Yes, because these 1k players won't get fresh blood and will cannibalize each other. Didn't this happen to online pocker before ?

[agile ferry]

people just salty they cant get all perfect stats for $1

[hearty tinsel]

Lol u and your crazy takes in here

[agile ferry]

bro, you want better stats go farm it or buy it off market

thats why there is Leviathan and Casual
stop trying to mix casual into leviathan

[icy vine]

I think most of us are past that by now... I know I am

[gritty pasture]

I think the problem is, if everyone in leviathan has perfect stats, then why do stats matter anymore?
And the second one would be that in the future, maybe new players wont have chances in competing in leviathan so they might not play at all so we end with only a few whales playing leviathan
Just to be clear i am not pro stat change, as myself has spent alot of money on good stats
But i preffer the changes that benefit the game, not me (benefit of the game in the end will create benefits for me)

[merry marsh]

We are trying to make this game work for everyone and not just those who own perfect stats Illuvials. I don't want to take anything away from you, but a few perfect stats owners are not the whole Illuvium community.

[crisp pier]

Guessing that the Player Journey Map we need to be Targeting Looks Like this?
F2P Gauntlet --> Cosmetics Unlock (Holos, Dark Holos Emotes, Avatars, Battle Boards)
Arena Ascendant --> F2P Decks and Use of Same Cosmetics
Overworld Exploration --> Farming for Ownership Cosmetics and Illuvials
Arena Ascendant Ranked (Ownership) - > Full Invesment into the Eco System
Leviathan Gauntlet (Competitive Play) ---> Target top tier Illuvals and Weapons/Armor
Levithan Ascendant (Competitive Play) ---> Target top tier Illuvals and Weapons/Armor

[agile ferry]

Leviathan is not meant to work for everyone dude. lol.

Casual is meant to work for everyone.

• thats why theres a ranking system

[crisp pier]

OK thats fine We need to get comfirmation then that STats only matter in WHale levithan mode its going to be a subset of the games and must of the rewards and tourneys are going to be in Casual game modes in that case Levithan Meas Nothing more than the rewards that are put into by the game owners and the sam stuff that happen where you and other whales invested 10k+ usd into season one airdrops and get shit return investment on it will happen again and again but now with your rewards for levithan modes?

[gritty pasture]

I hope the team will take the decision that is best from a bussiness point of view regardless of what we would preffer
No point in holding on our views if no one is playing the game. I wonder how big is the playerbase now that there is no airdrop

[icy vine]

Why can't Leviathan have a bigger prize pool?

[crisp pier]

Than Casual? Then your primary pool? Thats just a pay to when Whale mode why would we put extra rewards into what will be aa small player base of people? Becuase they invested money into perfect stat illuvals? the game has shown zero intrest into rewarding investment but more into targeting large numbers?

Thats why we are trying to get to the core if Levithan is suppose to be a Competive E-sport with HUGE reward pools we can't gate keep it Even if those at the top right now really want to

[agile ferry]

do you guys not understand that the whole purpose of overworld is to farm illuvials with good stats and level xp...

[crisp pier]

Anon do you not understand that i don't care what its suppose to BE i Care about what makes the game freaking work long run not whats best for anon

[agile ferry]

dude ill demolish you in both casual and leviathan. im not thinking whats best for me, im thinking whats best for the games economy marketplace.

[hearty tinsel]

We do understand that. But u r telling everyone to go play the non-ownership version of PvP. Don't u see how that limits the Leviathan player base and ownership as a whole? The less people converted from Casual into Leviathan means more rewards will go to people not owning the illuvials.

[crisp pier]

Good luck rouge nerf will be in by the next tourney 🙂

[agile ferry]

good luck if you think all i can play are rogues.

[crisp pier]

no i don't even think you can play that well

[last linden]

I don't think the majority of rewards can go to a free to play mode when we encourage ownership of illuvials. I'd be fine to give more rewards to ascendant because you only need to own an illuvial but it's not great ATM. Also the team mentioned that they can adjust the value of stats to decrease their impact and the more you level an illuvial, the less stats have impact.

[crisp pier]

THe problem is A simple STatment right now its play 100% go for perfect stats Gauntlet or 0 % ownership gauntlet. This is NOT a good system setup. So we need to figure out a better plan

[merry marsh]

What is your plan to bring gamers from casual to Leviathan ?

[crisp pier]

Yeah no exactly but it would be best for the game to focus on one game mode right now and the problem with gauntlet is we don't have an owenrship incentive module thats not levithan its either 100% free to play or Perfect stats Play

[agile ferry]

https://tenor.com/view/wwe-seth-rollins-put-your-money-where-your-mouth-is-how-about-you-put-your-money-where-your-mouth-is-money-where-your-mouth-is-gif-9469750189671697126

[rigid maple]

with this in mind you do realize if you only focus on free to play game modes and only incentivize those then there is no need to go into the overworld ie no business being done and no fuel being bought...

[crisp pier]

They expect people will be so excited to play free game they want to spend 20k usd to play the same game ?

[merry marsh]

There is the cosmetic Illuvial in Gauntlet. It should bring ownership to casual players.

[crisp pier]

A few but not enought and it doesn't get them brought into the full eco system

[rigid maple]

there are no cosmetics in the form of blue prints they do not exist currently

[merry marsh]

I wish the team could explain their plan.

[crisp pier]

Holos and Dark holos can serve as Cosmetics for gauntlet and tie into oveworld

[crisp pier]

Yeah i want to see a player journey map, a conversion plan for each transtion and an estimated success rate. They should be able to tell me they need to spend X dollars to get a player from F2p Gauntlet to levithan

[rigid maple]

everyone should understand this very key point if you dont give people a reason to go into the overworld ie stats and rares then the entire ecosystem dies...

[gritty pasture]

If they make the ow fun, then more players will go in ow.
But this is not what i meant. I would hate to be only free 2 play, as one thing i love about illuvium is ownership. I wouldnt even allow casual gauntlet to be played if you dont have the illuvial.
I am just saying that illuvials should have different layers of improvement. So if you have a perfect stat, then maybe another player comes with an illuvial that is only 120% stats but 3 times mutated. Or has his omega ascended two times.

[rigid maple]

no need to complicate the matter any more than what i just said...

[crisp pier]

So again playing devils advacate a prooperly balanced BURN system does this Better than Stats and

[agile ferry]

i dont get how some of these guys dont get this

[gritty pasture]

More content = more fun
I am just saying that if the key on attractong players is to make a system that changes stats, then ok. If not, then don't do it

[rigid maple]

bottom line if you want this to work it has to have a reason for people to venture into overworld and you cant count on the team making it better and hoping that is enough... it needs rares and stats to incentivize multiple runs into overworld repeatedly

[rigid maple]

you are banking on the idea of creating more content....currently we have something to incentivize players in the form of stats and you are disregarding this...

[crisp pier]

Exactly and Levithan doesn't do that thats the problem we are having War Machin everyone just said that its a whale only mode becuase it not get 1 perfect stat its gett a TON of perfect stats "Pepole won't climb the mountain if the top is out of reach"

[gritty pasture]

Once this wave is done, new players will have to buy the illuvials. I am sure they would be happier if they knew they can improve the illuvial they buy.
They woon't be able to just go and hunt a better one

[crisp pier]

The more i'm looking at this i think the problem might be Levithan modes as a Whole Not overworld or stats at all

[rigid maple]

and who knows when this wave is done?? do we even have a guess??

[agile ferry]

LMFAO

[rigid maple]

if you are proposing removing stats then every illuvial instantly becomes a $0.10 common card over night....

[agile ferry]

bro, there is no overworld without leviathan... just lmao.

[gritty pasture]

Trust me, i wouldnt want to remove stats
But i wish in one year it wont be just me, anon and you playing this game 🥲

[crisp pier]

I never propossed removing stats at all.

[agile ferry]

you stated that leviathan is the problem and not overworld. so explain how this makes sense.
what would you do in overworld if there is no leviathan.

[icy vine]

But this is exactly why there's no good solution. There isn't enough progression content outside of bonus stats to make this work right now. We need to bank on more progression content

[crisp pier]

I'm just trying to find where the process breaks down and the biggest issue seems to be stats and overworld where designed for a game where you build your team. So Needing great or perfect stats on 8 illuvials is a Whole lot less than needing perfect or great stats on Every illuvial. This is where we start to see breakdown becuase in a tft game mode you need to be flexible and able to build whatever the random game generates for you out of your shop. So with this your needing a full deck of perfect stats to be tat the top. This forces it from a hey lets get best stats for my team to lets get best stats for everything . Levithan gauntlet is a good start but i think its farther from being able to be used as competive and more whale heavy than the normal ascedant.

[rigid maple]

so i just caught this last night in overworld there has never been more rare illuvials in overworld than this very moment they tuned it so that rares drop now more than before....this is the incentive for me to keep going into overworld if you remove this then i will stop spending on fuel to play overworld if you cant understand this then you have not looked at the game economy closely enough.....

[agile ferry]

^^^^^^

[rigid maple]

if you remove incentive to go into the overworld then its GG and the ecosystem dies

[supple depot]

We had official NFTs on OpenSea — they’ve long been forgotten.
We had land — it’s now almost worthless and has plummeted in value.
We had Illuvitars — now they’re nearly useless too, and were only recently brought up again to create hype for the third wave of sales.

Now we have Illuvials. I sincerely hope the developers take your point of view into account because it’s absolutely valid. We're tired of investing in in-game assets that later lose their value. Illuvials should remain untouchable.

[gritty pasture]

Well i am not saying to change stats. But an extra layer of progression for people that dont want to base everything on luck
Maybe a burn system that burns a similar %stat so for every illuvial that gets better, another one that is as good dissapears.
It would also create a sense of progresion, as you chose one illuvial and evolve it.
Go from 120%, burn three other 150% to get to 150%. And so on. It will deflate the perfect stats. You burn more perfect stats for one that you choose. It will benefit everybody.

[crisp pier]

Lets do a though experment lets say Next Month their is a 2 Million Dollar Gauntlet Tourney ( Ok so all the best players in the world Jump in ) All your God tier TFT players and teams start buying illuvials. by there way theirs only proably about 40 to 50 perfect stats right now. So how many people can compete in this big tourney we want. People start farming but the entire tourney is going to be based on farming up full sets of perfect illuvials and levling them up? How can a player compete in these events? Spend ons of money? this isn't an e-sport its a nft schme it won't translate well to web2 its just a bad design . The argument coming from top Levithan players comes off a lot like ( we don't want anyway else to be able to play our game) Its just a bad feel if you tell us its just a whale only mode and their be a few tournements but casual is our primary e-sport im ok with that its ok to have special tourneys for whales but that won't be able to be our key e-sport . I think adding a way for people to get more average illuvals may decrease the cost short term but the increasing player base would increase the value of perfect stated and great illuvials in the long run ( IF DONE CORRECTLY) not sure i have the faith in the developers to make that design right now

[rigid maple]

you cant remove the rarity of good stat illuvials without normalizing good stats.... if your goal is to normalize good stats then stats have no meaning and may as well not exist and change this to a free to play game for everyone...

[crisp pier]

I think we need a soultion and as bad as it h urts me to say it i think the best thing for the game maay be a complete redesign of our progression and i don't think Stats can be off the table. I mean Just making levithan our e-sport mode ( means giving people ways to re-roll stats ) might be the only decent way forward.

[gritty pasture]

Having only level and stats is a boring way to play
A good game needs content. Extra layers lf progression = stats are still extremely important, you just can improve an illuvial in different ways

[rigid maple]

so if it needs more content then why are you so interested in changing stats?

[gritty pasture]

But you are making good stats even rarer. Because for every 1 good stat you'll have to burn 3 more.

[rigid maple]

stats and content are not to be conflated....

[gritty pasture]

I am not. I was just brainstorming. I just hope we get more ways to make players feel in control rather than pure rng

[agile ferry]

please dont tell me you actually think adding re-rolls youre making good stats more rare... LMFAO i just cant man.

[icy vine]

We should give players control outside of bonus stats, the bonus stats shouldn't be touched

[crisp pier]

Dude do some math Re-rolls don't effect the rarity of perfect stated illuvials nearly at al at our courrnet player base you have to burn every illuval we have ( including the really really good stated ones to create just 21 perfect stated illuvals) if it was a 3 to 1 burn like fusing

[rigid maple]

every good game relies on rng.... so why do you feel its necessary for everyone to have similar outcomes versus equal opportunity....

[gritty pasture]

Through burns? How is it not?

[crisp pier]

I think waht you mean is the cost of illuvals overall would go up . Even if we added a few perfects they would in effect cost the economy more than their value so they wouldn't decrease the value of perfect stats

[agile ferry]

well for one, because now you can make shitty statted illuvials better, and than use it to fuse. so technically you made it less rare cause you used shitty illuvials, made it better, and than fused.

[small rivet]

i think finding perfect stats is rarer than burning/rerolling, because finding those good stats is just random, while burn/reroll u intend to do it

[gritty pasture]

You are right, maybe we should wait s3 to see how many play leviathan

[rigid maple]

giving people a clear route to get perfect stats diminishes the rarity of good stats. so if the goal is to have every iluvial have perfect stats then why have stats?

[crisp pier]

Stop straw manning the arguments please its not good for coming up with actuall soultions.

the odds of rolling a perfect stated is 1 to 46k where just saying what if you could reroll 3 illuvals into 1 no one like a worse than a fuse

[rigid maple]

Erza with all due respect the guy literally just said i am right and is now agreeing with me...if he can see my points are valid why cant you?

[supple depot]

Such reasoning drives away long-term investors in gaming assets. What seemed untouchable yesterday is now being questioned today. How can I continue to support the project with my money if tomorrow these investments could turn to dust?

Leave the Illuvials' stats alone. This is a market. These are market dynamics. I've translated many of Kieran's interviews, and I clearly remember what he said in one of them, even before the mainnet launch. The idea was roughly this: "To build a full deck, a player must either spend a lot of time or a lot of money."

Stop catering to those who aren’t willing to simply play the game or spend money on it.

[crisp pier]

Its not like we are saying lets create a way to boost stats ( that would be crazy) just saying reolling and burning off a ton of bad illuvals which would must likely result in a lot of decent stated illuvials and allow more people to play levithan thus increasing thevalue of perfect stats as more people would be exicted to play illuvium

[gritty pasture]

Well, i agree that now everybody has equal oportunities to get the same outcome.
But what about players coming after the combat when you cant see stats anymore? Or for the new wave? Idk, i just dont want to make the adoption of new players even more difficult

[crisp pier]

This is a silly argument becuase the Quickest way for all your investments to turn to DUST is to not make this game appealing to large masses ( TO I NVEST IN) right now we are saying basically we are going to sponsor and support a GIANT F2P Model of Gauntlet

[icy vine]

So here's a thought. If we introduce another layer of progression let's say with the overworld raids coming where maybr you can farm items and increase BASE stats that way, bonus stats don't get touched... Even with perfect stat Illuvials, you'd still have lower bonus stat Illuvials to contend with if they did a better job farming than you and overall have better Illuvials from their gear. Doesn't that still give players an opportunity to jump into Leviathan to contend even if their Illuvial's aren't all perfect stats? That's player conversion is it not?

[supple depot]

Play in casual mode. Invest zero cents. Earn money, but less than those who invest in the game.

[agile ferry]

this is literally one of the most downvoted posts thus far for a reason. if that doesnt tell you something i dont know what will.

[crisp pier]

Go look at how Season 1 and Season 2 payed out and let me know how you feel about their reward structures for investment

[crisp pier]

it tells me you've been campaginng hard and getting lots of people to down vote it . but 31 downvotes out of 10k players doesn't really work as a sample size anon

[agile ferry]

am i living in your head rent free or something?

[crisp pier]

only when you won't shut your winny mouth up on discord

[agile ferry]

have you heard yourself speak?

feel free to mute me at any point, thats what the button is for

[crisp pier]

Yeah i hear my self speak weekly at Developers Conferences

what i don't have patients for is people who talk shit about stuff they have no formal education on because they play a game they think they can tell developers how to build successful games.

[rigid maple]

this is the truth new players currently have more opportunity now to catch rares in overworld than any early player ever did...this is part due to tuning the team did.... so again im saying equal opportunity not equal outcome....

[agile ferry]

tell me a successful game youve developed that 5 people in this chat would know about

[gritty pasture]

One of the most clear-visioned people i saw in this space is filow. I believe he is against stat rerolls so that tells me something.
All i am doing here is trying to get some ideas running.

[supple depot]

If I'm not mistaken, this is a DAO. And every player's opinion, especially active ones, matters. We're not "telling the developers what to do." Please don't twist it. We're simply sharing our thoughts on how to improve the game.

Many people in this chat have years of practical experience with the game, and their opinions should definitely be taken into account.

[rigid maple]

yes brainstorming is great stat rerolls are not and you seem to be hearing this from not just anon and i... also

i fused this today so if people want to reroll stats i suggest they take a look at fusion

its not guaranteed but good stats should not be guaranteed as this will remove their rarity...

[merry marsh]

Now that everyone who wanted and could afford to catch/fuse/buy perfect stats Illuvials - Who is going to buy the next perfect stats found in OW ?

[agile ferry]

https://tenor.com/view/futurama-nobody-thats-who-nobody-farnsworth-professor-farnsworth-gif-22941958

[gritty pasture]

Maybe we are stressing over nothing.
Maybe ranked leviathan would solve this. When you play in silver maybe there will be players with teams that have a similar rating like yours.
So if you want rank up, you can improve the team little by little

[merry marsh]

And this is the question we need to find an answer for. The answer might have to be found outside of stats, OW battles or even Arena.

[rigid maple]

in accord with your statement about stressing over nothing....what we have currently is a lack of demand via low number of player base. you will not solve this with stat re rolls. there are already free to play versions of pvp in the game no need to make everything f2p

[agile ferry]

this is literally why for 100 times already weve been saying it is going to destroy the marketplace and all

[icy vine]

There's plenty of other ways to boost your Illuvials. Just not by changing bonus stats. But we'll need content drops with progression systems separate from bonus stats to get there.

[crisp pier]

It seems like a burn system may be inevitable to ensure proper progression and to tie ownership into Illuvium's primary e-sport modes. The key issue is that our primary e-sport needs ownership tied to it, and right now, we don't have the player base to support splitting Leviathan into a separate ownership model. This leaves us with two main options:

Create a new ownership model for Gauntlet and keep Leviathan as a whale-only mode on the back burner for now.

Develop pathways to bring more players into Leviathan by increasing the average stat levels of Illuvials, ensuring that players feel they have competitive decks for Leviathan.

Introducing a burn system could help accomplish the latter by removing poorly-statted Illuvials from the game, resulting in more average-statted Illuvials while keeping perfect ones rare. This would allow more players to enter Leviathan with competitive decks, increasing participation. At the same time, it would theoretically raise the value of perfect and high-statted Illuvials by increasing demand.

The alternative is a much longer journey through multiple games and modes, where fewer people feel equipped to compete in Leviathan. This journey would start with Free-to-Play Gauntlet modes, unlocking cosmetics (Holos, Emotes, Avatars, Battle Boards), progressing to Arena Ascendant for ownership, moving into Overworld farming, and eventually entering Leviathan. However, this approach could discourage broader participation due to the time required to build a strong deck, whereas a burn system would offer a more streamlined way to help players feel competitive sooner while maintaining the rarity and value of perfect Illuvials.

[merry marsh]

Yes, the problem is deeper. IMO we need to find a market for cheap Illuvials first and then give their owners a way to grow up and get into more expensive stuff. It will be tough to find new buyers for thousand dollar Illuvials.

[rigid maple]

i agree stat rerolls do not equal content imo .... we already have a game mode that disregards stats and is competitive and again i ask where are all of the players that everyone thinks will come by allowing everyone to have the same stats?

[crisp pier]

Im just asking you guys to step back and think of this from a new player journey ( something we need to happened proably 500k times over the next year ) Tell me how you get someone into Levithan

Game design 101 Paint me The Ideal Journey from I learn about Illuvium today to i'm 100% invested competing in levithan tourneys.

[gritty pasture]

I believe it is hard already to rank based on skill. Now we have a bigger gap that requires skills and a good deck.
This could also be a balancing thing, as you can pay your way up, or have your skills carry the bad deck

[rigid maple]

truth be told Erza you know just as well as i do as a new player your goal is not just go straight into a worlds tournament... many players dont play in tournaments for quite some time before progressing to the level they feel comfortable competing

[crisp pier]

lets be 100% honest right now levithan gauntlet is 10% Skill , 10% Luck , 80% Money ( Value of your illuvals )

bbut its in alpha and not fully developed all features so we can let that pass while they finish developing but right now its just a illuval value test

[agile ferry]

im not surprised you didnt add a TIME % in there.

[rigid maple]

so if everyone can go in OW right now and catch something like this why aren't they?

[crisp pier]

No but as game designers We HAVE to build that road for them to travel thats the whole point of game design its to build the path you want players to travel

[rigid maple]

does mtg have a clear path to get to worlds? when you walk into a comic shop does the store owner hold your hand until you are in the next worlds tournament??

[crisp pier]

Ohh hell yes mtg has a VERY clear path to get to worlds

[rigid maple]

honestly though as a new player who holds your hand until u get to worlds?

[crisp pier]

thats one of the things that makes it so attractive you know exactly what it takes to go from your comic book store to teh pro tour its spelled out in crystal clear how many PT points you need

[rigid maple]

bro its ez to say just win and you go to worlds no one tells you how to do it....

[gritty pasture]

The most succesfull game i know is lol. Maybe we should learn a few things from there

[rigid maple]

dont conflate the two....

[crisp pier]

You've got Grand Prix , you have PTQ, you have standard, legacy. draft. all the formats have clear rules and paths to the top. You compete in x number of events and get x number of pt points your qualified. Some events you can just win for a spot.

[rigid maple]

you want to know something about playing lol at the highest levels?? its whales game... you need to own every champion so that you can counter pick your oppenent everygame....

[agile ferry]

sorry, but there isnt 10k players playing Gauntlet right now, and im on here all day all night, those people who downvoted are the ones actively playing gauntlet.

so when we do actually get 10k players playing gauntlet, than we can talk about all this.
But right now, majority of the actual players in leviathan are not for stat changes.

[rigid maple]

sure they do.... but again if their only advice to you is win and you go to worlds how is that any different from me telling you that all you need to win a leviathan tourney is go into overworld and catch good stat rare illuvials?

[crisp pier]

You wanta know something about LOL you can't buy a Shaco with Extra Ability power

[rigid maple]

you dont need to buy a shaco with extra ap you just need to pick a counter jungler that you own cause you are a whale in the game...

"ShacoJungle Counters
Based on our analysis of 35 287 matches, the best counters for Shaco Jungle are Nocturne, Talon, Skarner, Rammus and Lillia. On the other hand, Shaco Jungle counters Sylas, Zed, Lee Sin, Elise and Wukong."

you dont own those guess you are not whale enough to beat shaco

[crisp pier]

I just think the more i look this game needs an influx of players invested i don't thnk levithan can do that with the progression structure as it is and to be honest if its lose some of our whales to save the whole game and they can't see that we can't procedd with the current structure i think we have to be ok with that. You know i've been very anti stat boost and even re-rolls but the more people i've talked to the more i've come to realize this isn't a stat or no stats problem its a game mode problem. and we need stats and we need ownership to matter in the e-sport and the only way that will work if their are more chances at getting better stats and we can either do something small and helpful now before those players come in or we are going end up having to do something drastic like stat boosting after they come in

[icy vine]

Free overworld content via quests, raids, dungeons story mode, etc. Farm f2p overworld content like equips from raids that boost base stat levels and skill trees, play ascendant type modes with stage 0 Illuvials, see better Illuvials higher than tier 0, farm for those instead or buy them on the marketplace. Some have decent stats but not max stats, keep farming raids and other content to boost base stats and skills, maybe try Leviathan for once and see how you hold up, if there is room to progress via farming, farm, if not, maybe you need better Illuvials. Play Leviathan to season end, don't get the best placement but decent standing. Take earnings and reinvest for next season. Keep playing ascendants type modes or Leviathan type modes as you please.

We don't have the content for the player journey to make sense yet

[rigid maple]

Erza there are already routes to get good and/or perfect stat illuvials i just utlized them both in the last 24hrs with success...

[icy vine]

If you factor in other game content coming, it will make more sense

[rigid maple]

so why i ask are you wiling to overtune that to the point where everyone can access them?? this only serves to diminish the current ways we have of getting them....

[crisp pier]

because the current way wasn't designed well for the type of game we are now using them in. They where designed with ascedanat in mind not gauntlet.

[rigid maple]

then normalize stats and play casual

[icy vine]

You're right, it can't if bonus stats are the only progression structure. So we need more layers of progression to work with bonus stats to fix that progression gap

[rigid maple]

rename casual to ranked... give it a leaderboard so people know its competitive and have ranked and leviathan....

both can exist and both can have leaderboards with rewards and tournaments... it doesnt have to be one or the other... just like in mtg ie legacy standard modern etc....

[gritty pasture]

My key points:

• no stat alteration
• if the gap between stats becomes too small, the stats become useless
• more content is needed to improve illuvials in other ways
• the burn mechanism should 💯 encourage the burns of illuvials with higher stats (give bonus essence based on % burned)
• the bonus stats dont feel as a bonus rn, they feel like a necessity

[icy vine]

We can have many different tourneys running

[icy vine]

And technically, if the Leviathan populations are smaller, doesn't that mean each player gets a bigger cut of the prize pool?

Why wouldn't small fry want to compete for a bigger cut anyways?

And if your Illuvials are high stats, doesn't that mean Leviathan modes are an EXTRA way to earn placement rewards?

[agile ferry]

were going to have both Casual Ranked and Leviathan Ranked

[crisp pier]

but BOTH LEGACY and STANDARD require you to own CARDS. Casual Does NOTHING for the economy your saying 0 or 100 with no inbetween if you keep following this logic out you will realize why we have to have burn mechanic stick with it

[icy vine]

So having high stat Illuvials gives you a chance to double dip in higher placements in both non Leviathan and Leviathan modes

[icy vine]

So make it so you have to own the cards if you want prize money

[agile ferry]

what?

[agile ferry]

no, stats dont matter in casual ranked. stats only matter in Leviathan mode.

[icy vine]

I know... Nevermind... I think this thread is devolving too much. I can't understand what point some of you are trying to make

[rigid maple]

yes there are rewards for players who go this route however at the same time a player who owns nothing can compete rank on leadersboards get rewards and win a tournmament with rewards all while spending 0. this aspect of it appeals to the f2p players... this way we can appeal to both f2p players and players who choose to own illuvials

[icy vine]

Ok... So what exactly are we bickering about then?

[rigid maple]

the idea that some particular individuals want stat re rolls where as most of the community does not...

[icy vine]

That f2p payouts will wreck the game?

[rigid maple]

i dont think allocating a portion of the rewards to f2p competitive players wrecks the game i believe its gets more people in who then convert to being owners once they realize the rewards for ownership ie leviathan rewards

[icy vine]

Ok, so why is Erza up in arms about all this talking about burn mechanics?

[rigid maple]

proposing a burn mechanic to supply the stat reroll mechanism

[icy vine]

Ah ok, so Erza now supports stat rerolls

[rigid maple]

however the only burn mechanic that works currently is one for exp gain because if you allow everyone to get perfect stats then stats mean nothing...

[icy vine]

Ok, that was where I got confused cause all of the previous days he was against it

[rigid maple]

some have convinced him otherwise...

[merry marsh]

The old discussion between those, who see assets as an investment and those who see them as pure gaming assets that can be evolved and have fun with in multiple games.

Illuvium created this total mashup of web2 and web3 and now no one knows what this really is. If we are so confused, how will a mainstream gamer feel ?

There is only one way out IMO: Focus on F2P as much as possible and whatever we design/implement ask the question "How does this benefit a new Illuvium player?".

[rigid maple]

if you want to just make it all f2p then maybe refund everyone's eth...

[merry marsh]

No, we need to get F2P players to first like the games and Illuvials and then buy Illuvials. But we need to increase the player base first, before we monetize them. Everything else comes from players, who like Illuvials and our games. And like them without being rewarded. Rewards should be the candy on top.

The value of an Illuvial, good or bad stats, comes from the number of players, who want them. The value of perfect stats Illuvials will drop to zero, if we can not attract new players from TFT etc.

[rigid maple]

is this not accomplished via "yes there are rewards for players who go this route however at the same time a player who owns nothing can compete rank on leader boards get rewards and win a tournmament with rewards all while spending 0. this aspect of it appeals to the f2p players... this way we can appeal to both f2p players and players who choose to own illuvials" ??

[agile ferry]

outplayed. you had behemoth and lights chosen w/ dust.
that statement didnt age well already kek

[rustic burrow]

REKT

[merry marsh]

But will a F2P player find this option without being distracted among all these other options to buy Illuvials, OW, Leviathan etc. It is pretty confusing and they might start in the wrong place, see NFTs and never come back.

That’s what I mean by evaluating everything with the eyes of a mainstream gamer, from website to games.

[rigid maple]

have it be in the main tutorial so that it brings them right to it no mistaking it that way

[crisp pier]

This is an over simplifcation , the must vocal players ( those heavily invsted into stats already) are saying no to stat re-rolls., however i believe this is incredibly short sighted. I think the bigger issue is we need ONE primary e-sports mode not 2 , i would like to see all the money going to support e-sports mode. however the current game model can't support that and i would prefer to see 0 to very littel going to support a 100% f2p model. As OW was not designed to support gauntlet i believe we need a system in place that helps bridge the gap between OW's orginal design and the current PVP modes. I think when it comes down to holostic design we either do Stat Re-Rolls NOW or we end up doing Stat Boost in 6 Months . I think the only local option is to do stat re-rolls now or we will end up in a major problem in 6 months. The avearge conversion rate for a f2p player to paid Generally speaking, 2% is about normal. 5% with amazing conversion rates. With a giant wall we have now of levithan and no on ramp its likely to be 0.001% . We have to have a bridge from f2p grabing up a few cosmetic ( holos , dark holos , beyond skins ) to overworld and levithan. I think burn and stat re-rolls make the most since as every action into overworld gives you more chances of getting decent stated illuvials. The truth is if this was included in the orginal fuse or burn options we wouldn't have bated an eye some times things have to change to have a better future

What this Total Argument Boils down to is a suggest burn mechanic that would increase the ability to get moderate to good stated illuvials and a 15-20% more frequent rate in a maximze perfect illuvial increase of less than 1 % something around .9% and the whales are crying they may lose 1% value to make the game mode actually playable by the masses?

Becuase those 1% more perfect stated illuvials would come at at market force of burning 120,000 the floor price if we go with a 3 to 1 burn rate

Littearlly where asking to increase the market value of all illuvals by a ton ( WHat don't the whales get about that ) ( see we can make the same argument back at not burning for stats)

Another Option would be to Shelf Gauntlet Entierly and go back to Ascedant until the player base reaches a suitable point to be able to support Levithan mode Gauntlet?

[rigid maple]

the main point being over simplified is this you can not fix the current issue with stat re rolls. keep in mind this stats were meant to be found in OW which then can be fused for higher stage illuvials as well so fusion is currently serving the purpose of both burning and stat re rolling. also what many are not accepting is that you can currently find more rare illuvials now than you ever could before... so if we have 100k players going into OW everyday there will be rares found. currently i am finding good stats and also getting good stats by fusing. so please explain what is it that you think stat re rolls will solve?

[agile ferry]

lol, go back to Ascendant? XD
that mode just isnt it rn. the fact that you think this tells me so much. again, lack vision.
weve already tried ascendant, it is not the way.

Gauntlet has potential, already more potential with just few months of work on it. So much room to grow.

yeah it makes sense, youve joined in July 2024, so you dont know the history of it very much.

[agile ferry]

should be the opposite, we should shelf ascendant and just showcase Gauntlet if anything hahaha

[solemn cloak]

https://tenor.com/view/stop-it-get-some-help-gif-15058124

[agile ferry]

The guy telling us stat rerolls makes so much sense, is telling us to remove gauntlet and focus on ascendant.

yeah. no.

[royal wagon]

Are you trolling us with this stuff? It's hard to tell when there's money involved. This is probably the one idea less popular than re-rolls.

While we're at it, we can cut the Zero fuel by 75% again and enable S3 runs for free ...

[merry marsh]

We should get back to discussing Aaron's idea. It is actually a good compromise that can make everyone happy:

Well my “devil’s advocate” version was “pay landholders, only increase ONE random stat and only by ONE point ONE time and no increase can make you perfect.”

OW hunters are still the only ones who can find perfect stat Illuvials and everyone else can evolve their Illuvials to almost perfect stats in a lengthy, but achievable progression.

When it comes to Leviathan we can introduce tickets that allow for a temporary boost to 100% perfection.

These tickets can he earned on casual leaderboards or found in the OW and bought on the IlluviDex.

This opens up Leviathan as e-sports mode.

[crisp pier]

It's a valid option. Ascendant already has the proper game modes needed for launching a competitive game: casual free-to-try decks that welcome new players, an ownership model tied to progression, and a higher tier that demands perfect stats. If people aren’t willing to make adjustments to create a larger on-ramp for more players to access Leviathan, Ascendant would be a more suitable choice for supporting a competitive environment.

[crisp pier]

This is why i pivoted on having re-rolls becuase if we do re-rolls now we can avoid doing this highly gimicky stuff in the future of stat boost either permenatn or temporary which will directly impact the perfect illuvial market

[merry marsh]

Everyone is so fixated on not impacting the perfect Illuvial market by trying to protect it at all cost.

Instead we need to increase the player base and create demand for perfect Illuvials and not try to protect the existing small perfect Illuvial market.

With new players comes demand for everything in Illuvial, without new players all Illuvials will go to zero.

Aaron's idea gives those new players (from TFT) a way to progress to ALLMOST perfect stats with a cheap initial investment.

And when they become pros they will buy 100% perfect from OW hunters, because they want to compete without having to buy tickets every time.

The number of tickets on the market will determine the price of 100% perfect stats Illuvials and should be controlled by economists.

[near grove]

Can T0 Illuvials be included in the reroll. Like pair up with something else, to burn them and reduce supply. Noting that the line will only end once a new set is produced. However there will still be many of them.

I have no issue with re-rolls. It's a common practice in most games that have stats with characters, it's always paid for in some kind of currency, it usually hard to achieve untill you have leveled up and are able to make the in-game currency needed.

Or - Can loadouts be considered. Maybe one free then any extras paid for, with a cap on how many.
Perhaps a burn mechanic can go into that too. With a focus again on T0.

[near grove]

Maybe re-rolls, in this context, would come with having to reach a certain level before doing so.

[icy vine]

Like maxing out an Illuvials level and then it resets after rerolling?

[near grove]

Hmmm just a thought l, what if down the track changing stats was linked to a tree and we had some kind of dynamic immersive bonus stat. That were slightly different to each user and perhaps only applied or activated on competitive modes.

[near grove]

Yes lol. I have little idea how people achieved this without it.

[near grove]

I like this idea.
I am wondering though, what happens when the majority of players have maximum stats on everything?
What are the parameters that set them apart?
With gyms could each or a random number of trained Illuvials have some kind of generative special skill? That takes a lot to activate yet adds serious complexity?

[near grove]

I don't like the randomness of it.
That being said, now days in any game that involves stats people just got to the meta and there is a serious lack of individuality, and players are usually forced to follow in order to be competitive and then we all just end up seeing the same thing.

How do we create something where the player has more choice and there can be multiple combinations that can be competitive.

[near grove]

Hmm made me think, what about burning Illuvials in the proposed gym for time. The Illuvials to burn could be T0 of the same element. Would burning T0s lessen the impact on the market for the higher tier s. Does it make any sense or just a silly notion.

[crisp pier]

NO , Ok the Price of Perfet Stat Illuvials should be controled by Supply and Demand not some back in controls of the game thats silly, And i'm arguing the same thing you just said we need to make on ramps for new players to understand teh path to getting Goood stated illuvials NOT give everyone perfect stated illuvials everything about that is beyond even being a reasonable soultion

[normal pawn]

I think some of the nuance being missed in a lot of these comments is that this secondary system can be implemented with a rational balance in mind. It doesn't have to be a secondary system that lets players power creep to the equivalent of a perfect stats illuvial, and it certainly doesn't make a terrible stats illuvial viable in Leviathan. What it would do is open up regular players (not casual, not whales) to be able to spend a decent amount of money (not thousands), and play a couple hours a day (or training gym) and be able to even consider competing in Leviathan. As we currently sit.... You're going to have Leviathan mode with 15 whales and Ascendant with 99.9% of the playerbase. I see balancing the spread with a secondary system as a positive while still protecting the importance of finding or buying high stats illuvials. It just makes the medium stats illuvials worth buying too. Right now it's either buy absolute top stats or the cheapest garbage you can find. Middle tier doesn't have a place.

[crisp pier]

The goal isn’t to make stats meaningless. What some of you are suggesting would essentially do just that, and that’s not what we want. We don’t want to eliminate the significance of stats or create a system that diminishes their value. If that were the case, we could just put Leviathan aside for now and introduce a new game mode where stats are balanced across the board.

We don’t want to drastically increase perfect stats; rather, we aim to boost the number of decent, playable Illuvials. Currently, only about 1 in 750 Illuvials is competitive, which means you have to do around 35 runs just to catch a good one—not exactly a good use of time or money. The suggestion is to allow bad Illuvials to be burned—3 or 5 of the same exact Illuvial—to randomly re-roll its stats. This would likely result in a 15-20% increase in playable Illuvials and only a 1% increase in perfect stats, while also burning off most of the current low-value Illuvials, thereby strengthening the economy.

This is exactly " You're going to have Leviathan mode with 15 whales and Ascendant with 99.9% of the playerbase" the problem we are trying to solve for so its either make a new game mode to include everyone or make adjustments to let everyone compete in Levithan . I don't see having three game modes as a smart play for the playerbase we have right now. The casual Gauntlet has No Owenership tied to it at all so thats going to cause even more issues as it will be the primary mode must people will want to play of Gauntlet as Levithan is so heavily stat based.

[near grove]

What about a separate load out for Leviathan and maybe other modes, where a player can choose what stats they want within the para of the illuvial.
Would this create more dynamics?
Personally I'm really interested it the emerging tech of generative skills.

[near grove]

Possibly? I feel like the team could do more RnD on different types of games. Yes its like a card game of sorts l, yet I don't believe we need to only look to those for answers.
New things are created by seeing a large overview, seeing gaps and potential combinations within the context of your system.

[near grove]

I'm still a bit confused on how many people will be able to have perfect stat Illuvials? Let's say we get 2k players in leviathan, how many have perfect stat Illuvials?
Is there a saturation point?
Will further collections address this?
What makes one owner's perfect stat Illuvial different to the next, the rest of their team or something else?
Can a few people have nearly all the perfect stat Illuvials?

[icy vine]

What if there are other ways to increase the stats of your Illuvial besides the bonus stat system?

[near grove]

I think 3 different games is okay.

[near grove]

Yes I'd be very keen to explore this. With the idea of loadouts, that can only be used in certain modes and at the risk of being a broken record, something revolutionary that is fun and moves away from everyone having the same meta. It really is a boring phenomena that has occurred to all games over the last 30 years or so. I think with the age of AI it might actually be achievable.

[icy vine]

Or maybe since we'll be getting raid and dungeon content soon, maybe an itemization system?

[icy vine]

Loadouts like a skill tree?

I've seen there are plans for the Ranger to get a skill tree for example.

[near grove]

For the ranger sure.
Yet it could also be for Illuvials.
It doesn't have to be a skill tree. More like additional or the ability to choose stats.

[icy vine]

What do you mean by choose stats?

[near grove]

Each Illuvial has stats. A player could choose which ones they want to enhance or nerf depending on their team.

[icy vine]

So in other words, reassignable stats you can click up and down as needed depending on the game mode

[near grove]

Or there are special ones to choose from or merge or create something entirely new.

[near grove]

Possibly, I guess it depends on how it could be technically achieved.

Often I see discussion heavy on the side of what is, in very limited parameters.
I'd like to see more discussion on what could be. Maybe something that fits all criteria comes from that.

I might continue in your thread. As I think I am sliding away from the topic.

[merry marsh]

And discussions that focus on the actual game play first and monetization second.

Illuvium has made its life really hard by trying to merge a virtual economy (Illuvials with stats) with a skill based gameplay with the same assets.

To succeed we need to separate this web3 from the web2 world and still make them work together.

The idea of Illuvials as cosmetics in Gauntlet is such a solution. The OW hunters produce Illuvials and the mainstream gamers buy them as cosmetics and just focus on their skilled gameplay.

We need to do the same for Leviathan. E-Sports players should not be bothered with buying a set of highly expensive perfect Illuvials before they can start to compete. Maybe owners of these assets can lend them or whatever solution we come up with to make Web3 interface with e-sports players.

[near grove]

Interesting ideas, I particularly think the rental system is interesting, yet what about ownership for those people?

[merry marsh]

I still think e-sports players will buy perfect stats Illuvials once they are hooked and Iluvium has grown and established itself.

But I am for different options to accommodate different players and personalities.

Especially in the beginning we can not expect TFT players to invest into Illuvium like we do.

We need to bring our investment into the hands of skilled players and get them interested in the game play.

At the moment it is akin to requiring chess players to buy a golden chess set in limited editions before they can join a tournament with new chess rules.

[agile ferry]

Gods Unchained was way more expensive than illuvium to have a nice deck and has done more volume.

[merry marsh]

How many mainstream gamers did they have ?

[agile ferry]

how many mainstream gamers does any web3 game have

[main hollow]

i heard parallel is not cheap too

[merry marsh]

Whom do you want to sell your perfect stat Illuvials to ?

[agile ferry]

i dont have many perfect stats

[merry marsh]

Someone else ?

[main hollow]

having two game modes which cater to F2P and P2W is fine.
If you dnt agree with perfect stats then just play the normal gauntlet and let whales be whales

[merry marsh]

Who is going to play P2W from outside our community ?

[main hollow]

the key to leviathan tournament and leaderboard is asset lending. whales can lend their nfts to players

[merry marsh]

That's what I said.

[main hollow]

leviathan probably gonna start slow, but we still have to start somewhere

we need to create demand for these stats

[icy vine]

A full perfect stat team still takes time and money to build. Less than perfect Illuvials will still probably have a place in Leviathan for quite a while until fully saturated

[main hollow]

look at the illuvials price and supply amount on illuvidex. figure out how to stop the price to go lower and turn around

[icy vine]

And there are still ways to utilize Leviathan gameplay in the overworld when new progression mechanics come out, especially if we do something like Diablo seasons

[agile ferry]

yep, all this will have to do with focusing on competitive scene, ranked/leaderboards.

I feel like when some of these guys basically suggesting getting the really good stats to be much cheaper on market by messing around with the stats… they forget we have to PAY to go into the overworld. So if you make decisions that cause harm to the illuvials value, why in the world would i pay for fuel to go into runs that now a good stat T5 is worth $5-$10

[main hollow]

yes, if everyone can fly first class then theres no first class

[icy vine]

The problem I see with trying to lean so hard on Arena as the only Leviathan mode right now is eventually full stat Illuvials will saturate the market without a way to increase demand outside of acquiring a new player base.

What if there was a way to utilize Illuvials once a season to compete with in a different kind of competition, but cannot be used again for any other seasons.

For example, when new overworld content drops with ways to farm and build Illuvials via raids, dungeons, and factions, couldn't we essentially make for a Diablo seasons type competition and the Illuvials can only be used for that season only? Let's say you have a perfect stat Illuvial you want to enter into the new diabloesque Leviathan ladder season. You play through and try to complete the highest difficulty challenge to score a place on the leaderboard. Once the season is over, that Illuvial can no longer be entered again into the competition and you'd have to buy or farm a new one for the next season

[main hollow]

so the perfect illuvials that someone spent $5K on are useable once?

[icy vine]

Just for that compeition

[main hollow]

what if you bought a car and u can only use it once

[icy vine]

There's going to be more game modes and systems... Or at least have a cooldown before entering again... Maybe a year?

[agile ferry]

bro, this isnt the time to put focus on creating new game modes, this is the time to focus on the existing game mode, Gauntlet. People will lose their minds at this point if we stall more.

[icy vine]

The devs are already working on overworld content, why not utilize it?

[icy vine]

Eventually the car breaks down and I'd have to buy a new one anyways

[agile ferry]

we should not be making any drastic detrimental changes before we even see how many of the tens of thousands of players are shifted focus onto Gauntlet Leaderboards in Season 3.

[icy vine]

Ok, but just saying if demand is an issue, there are many ways to increase demand outside of only relying on increasing the player base

There's going to be more content coming outside of the Arena. And if demand is an issue, a Diablo type ladder season is certainly a way to increase it

[agile ferry]

imagine if i suggested something like rerolling my shitty Illuvium Beyond cards for a chance of it turning into a T5 Rhamphyre. You think people in beyond are going to agree with that or say are you out of your mind?

[icy vine]

What does that have to do with this?

[agile ferry]

This has to do with people and their stat reroll burning concept

[icy vine]

I'm not talking about rerolling

[agile ferry]

that post had nothing to do with what you were talking about lol, it had to do with this threads main topic ser

I wasnt replying to you, i was simply making a statement

[rigid maple]

can we reroll lands too while we are at it? can t1 lands be rerolled to tier 5?

its just not accessible to new players who may want t5 lands so we need a clear path how every player can get to a t5 land

[agile ferry]

hell yeahh brothers!! lets go lemme reroll my T1 land for T4!! omg wow!

🤣 🤡 😂

[merry marsh]

What would you say, if new OW players came in and farmed a massive amount of perfect stat Illuvials and created an oversupply that dropped existing perfect stats prices ?

[rigid maple]

i would say go for it

[icy vine]

All else being equal, that should be how a market works

[agile ferry]

without fusing, perfect or near perfect stat illuvials would be worth insane amounts right.
with fusing, it makes it easier to get, hence cheaper. okay, fine.

but now some of these guys think its a good idea to make it even easier to get by messing with stats, what do you think happens to the market. its over

[rigid maple]

if they drop as they do now then surely there will be new good stat illuvials... i just caught this 24 hrs ago so we already have a way to get good stat illuvials.... we dont need to normalize stats by having everyone be able to get good stat illuvials from their 1st day playing...

[merry marsh]

This is not a black and white thing. Nobody wants to have a stat upgrade on day 1 for 10 cents to reach perfect stats in a week. You make it sound like anyone wants to kill the perfect stats market. We want more ways to get them, maybe adjust existing mechanisms etc. The same journey land owners had to go through with nerfed fuel production, drop in land value etc. We are still in beta and changes will happen.

[agile ferry]

Hey guys, i cant afford a T4 land right now. But I would play Zero if i had one, so can i Re-roll my T1 land to get a T4 land? Would be such a good idea to onboard more people playing Zero!
(sarcasm, obviously)

[rigid maple]

we have ways to get them.... all i am hearing when i hear people say they want stat re rolls is that they dont want to go into overworld to get them... well think about this for one minute it has never been cheaper than the last few weeks to go into overworld and there has never a been a time when you could catch more rares and good stats....

[rigid maple]

the nerfs to the land have made that game near unplayable the more you change the more it will damage the existing mechanisms you cant simply fix something by adding more complexity and more mechanisms that dont solve the underlying issue

[main hollow]

u need a toyota

[rigid maple]

u want good stats go get them.... if you diminish the need to go into overworld to get them then you are breaking the ecosystem

so you proved my point @crisp pier you have good stats so clearly there is a path to get them in the game already...

[agile ferry]

exactly, he literally fused it.

[crisp pier]

The debate around Illuvial stats has become ridiculous. The odds of getting a "GOOD" statted Illuvial are about 1 in 730. This wouldn’t be a huge problem if players were just trying to build small teams for Ascendant Mode, but the odds are way too low for the average player to put together a competitive deck for Leviathan Mode.

We have a few options here:

Make Leviathan Mode meaningless and only for whales—perfect stats will lose their value because they won't matter to 99% of the player base.

Create a new game mode for Gauntlet where stats are normalized but ownership is rewarded. Perfect stats would still be slightly more valuable but won’t drastically affect gameplay.

Ignore Gauntlet completely—let it turn into a whale mode like Leviathan, while everyone else focuses on Arena because that's the only mode where stats won’t make or break gameplay.

Make a small concession now by allowing stat re-rolls. This isn’t about handing out perfect stats to everyone. It’s about turning unplayable Illuvials into potentially playable ones. This won't flood the game with perfect stats, and it’s not a drastic overhaul—it's a measured solution similar to when fusing was first introduced.

We need to stop acting like there’s no middle ground. The idea of re-rolls isn't going to devalue perfect stats, and at the same time, not everyone should be stuck with unplayable Illuvials. Both extremes—demanding no re-rolls at all or pushing for perfect stats for everyone—are wrong. Let’s take a balanced approach that keeps the game competitive and enjoyable for more players.

[icy vine]

Toyota's might last longer but they still eventually wear out.

I'm just trying to comment on your statement on needing more demand for perfect Illuvials. Increasing the player base for Arena is one way, but there's another game mode and more content coming with OW to consider in the entire ecosystem. It's not like you'll be losing anything more than what you have now.

[merry marsh]

I want new players to create an emotional bond to an Illuvial and level it up and optionally upgrade its stats slowly until they have a good Illuvial. This is a way for a certain demographic to experience ownership. This does not affect the high end perfect stats market if done correctly.

[rigid maple]

1 in 730 seems low only cause there are not many going into overworld currently.... with more players the number of good stat illuvials increases accordingly...

[icy vine]

There are middle grounds, just not by affecting bonus stats directly... You're not considering the fact that the overall power of an Illuvial can have more segments to the equation besides rerolling bonus stats.

[crisp pier]

OMG 1 in 730 seems low becuase out of EVERY 730 ILluvials you look at only 1 has GOOD stats.

[agile ferry]

this guy has the worst of all ideas. also he suggested to remove Leviathan and focus all in on Ascendent.

[solemn cloak]

https://tenor.com/view/клоун-gif-13031758617125701370

[rigid maple]

and how many illuvials are there??

[crisp pier]

Zadkiel you can go on my freaking block and mute list as well i have no time for people who don't understand shit and act like they know something becuase they play games

[queen tendon]

The markets are already saturated with high stats illuvials and we are still in beta.

The OGs played & paid 13$ per s3 run back at launch, or a lot of $ to acquire and fuse perfect ones and you guys still talking about changing NFTs properties?

[agile ferry]

once again, this is coming from the guy who said remove Leviathan and focus all on Ascendent 1v1 mode

[crisp pier]

OMG no ones changing NFT properties we are burning X number ( something like 3- to 5 ) to mint a new NFT with random stats

[queen tendon]

The bug showing stats should also be fixed, and if you wanna bond with your illuvials, might as well add a nickname to them instead of touching stats that affect the their value

[rigid maple]

this guy gets it

[agile ferry]

theyre desperate at this point trying to milk every random reason to do rerolling stats LMFAO

[rigid maple]

read it and do some math then please explain how this is not more like 1 out of 19 has good stats?

[merry marsh]

Because everyone who buys something wants to know how we can improve it or if he is stuck with an asset. They can already level it why not increase its stats slowly to avoid over saturating the good stats market ?

[icy vine]

That's fine, just do it in other ways besides rerolling or boosting bonus stats

Ask for more content from the devs that boosts your stats, leave bonus stats as they are

[merry marsh]

Maybe I should say it out loud: There are “gamers” here who just care about their own enrichment and not about Illuvium at all.

[bold orbit]

😂

[queen tendon]

Burn illuvials for consumables, perfectly good exchange

[agile ferry]

at this point i really need to know this Ape41, are you for rerolling/burning T1 Land for T4 land?
and burning shitty Illuvium Beyond cards for High Rarity ones?

[crisp pier]

well for 1 i said 1 out of every 730 you see has good stats i'm assuming all the ones caught atleast latley are only good stated ones

[merry marsh]

You know who you are.

[queen tendon]

Ofcourse they do (:

[rigid maple]

yea they are the ones screaming they want stat re rolls so that they can acquire what illuvials others have by simply complaining that they dont have them....

[merry marsh]

You are stupid. I already told you that I am not for these crazy extreme solutions.

[queen tendon]

Consumables are needed, so might as well burn our shit for them, no stat touching

[merry marsh]

I am for Aaron’s idea, not stat rerolls.

[agile ferry]

yeah but its okay to do it for the illuvials aye?

[crisp pier]

If you drop movement speed like you did the odds of getting 3-4-5 on all stats is 3% ( 3.1.25% ) so your math would say 3 out of every 100 illuvials you see will be playable stats

[rigid maple]

ok but these numbers are more like 1 out of 19 have playable stats in leviathan

[bold orbit]

Only downvotes, but the thread has 500 posts... What are you guys even arguing

[crisp pier]

OK LISTEN and read what i said 3 out of every 100 you SEE will have playable stats not Everyone that is Caught

[agile ferry]

https://tenor.com/view/tmnt2012-michelangelo-that-guy-he-he-had-a-brain-he-had-a-brain-brain-gif-18749002

[icy vine]

Better entertainment than what's on tv

[rigid maple]

normalizing stats will not get more players in here making the game function as intended will fix bugs and make the game run smooth as butter before even thinking about making it any more complex than it already is....

[rigid maple]

you have a path to get good stats you proved that... what is you end goal with stat re rolls?

[crisp pier]

Ok stop deflecting to bugs yes they are working on bugs we are looking a system to help create a better spread of stats that Does not involve them selling stat boost (perm or temp ) and that does not involve creating a new system of progression that just overpowers or replace stats

[crisp pier]

Omg what i was showing you is we already have stat re-rolls in the Game where just saying lets allow full re-rolls for the same exact illuvial fusion iseven more broken than wahts being suggested

[rigid maple]

if fusion is more broken why do we need to add another mechanism?

[crisp pier]

Stat re-rolls are in the game you can do it for stage 2's and 3's where just saying lets add the ability to do a full re-roll for the same stage with any illuvials and it will be fully random than controled

[rigid maple]

stage 1 re rolls = no need to go into overworld.... next question

[agile ferry]

if we listen to this guy the market of illuvium will be below the ground.

[crisp pier]

No they don't because even if we do 3 to 1 theirs not enough illvuals to burn them all to get good stated ones. even with your math only 3 out of every 100 are "Decent" so you burn 300- 500 of the same illuvial to get 3 decents ones?

[bold orbit]

Market will be in the subway? 🧐

[agile ferry]

there is a ground below the subway.

[rigid maple]

so then why implement your mechanism if it doesnt work out mathematically?

[main hollow]

[crisp pier]

becuase warmachine where trying to use a hammer to fix the problem before we need a bulldozer

[agile ferry]

https://tenor.com/view/all-of-this-cecily-strong-saturday-night-live-everything-all-of-it-gif-23380050

[icy vine]

The trick is to stop before you hit lava

[rigid maple]

you are assuming its a problem... yet u proved that you can get good stats... so where is the problem?>\

[crisp pier]

a small change now will result in a 10-15% increase in decent stated illuvials and less than a 1% increased in perfect stated illuvials and as player increase we may be able to keep demand from going sky high but believe me when 10k players are demanding better was to progress things get adjusted ( You KNOW THIS ) they adjust fuel they adjust energey cost they adjust everything based on player demand

so being premetive now gives us a way that only slight adjust the supply rather than something that greatly adjust it and kills value later down the line

[agile ferry]

no ones gonna believe or trust in you when you suggest things like putting Leviathan aside and focusing on 1v1 Ascendent.

[rigid maple]

they are already "adjusting" things based on player demand just ask any land owner how that worked out... if you are assuming that further doing that will make a positive impact then you should look at the current results

[icy vine]

So are you just looking for better progression mechanics?

[merry marsh]

Every economy adjusts via monetary, fiscal and regulatory mechanisms all the time.

[rigid maple]

and would you say they are making things better?

[agile ferry]

https://tenor.com/view/tilda-tilda-swinton-reroll-tilda-reroll-gif-1217453780650550564

[merry marsh]

Some better, some worse. But it doesn’t work without them. There is nothing like a self running economy.

[rigid maple]

no but seriously is any central bank making things better for everyday common people?

[icy vine]

No, the answer here is no

[rigid maple]

honestly this...

[merry marsh]

This is not the question, because it doesn’t work without them. Even Hayek sees a role for them and he can’t be accused of loving them.

Hayek believed that the ultimate goal of central banks should be to stabilize nominal spending (i.e., nominal GDP). This policy goal implies offsetting changes in the velocity of money by increasing or decreasing the money supply. For instance, in the aftermath of 2008 crisis, this would have involved undertaking an expansionary monetary policy to prevent nominal GDP from falling below trend. In other words, Hayek would have called for monetary expansion to fight a deflationary spiral resulting from the financial crisis and subsequent recession.

[agile ferry]

https://tenor.com/view/whatif-matrix-make-gif-723526056553365657

[agile ferry]

https://tenor.com/view/the-matrix-has-you-gif-9223042

[merry marsh]

So you think it is enough to code some Illuvium economy and then let it run automatically for 1000 years ?

[rigid maple]

this rhetoric is why we cant have nice things...

[merry marsh]

This discussion has reached kindergarten level.

[agile ferry]

im just here to be against stat changes ser.

[merry marsh]

I know, I hate extremists.

[icy vine]

Well, you're gonna get an economics lesson, SER

[rigid maple]

such as people who pray to their central banks that provide them with a system which without they would cease to exist?

[agile ferry]

the moment youre okay with burning or rerolling Tier 1 Lands to T4, and T1 Beyond to T5 Beyonds, ill consider rerolling/burning for illuvials

[merry marsh]

Yes, I am. It is called new land sale and who knows how many more lands will be sold in the future. When we have millions of players we might want many more T4 lands.

Although it can not be 100% compared, because Illuvials are an unlimited resource.

[icy vine]

I think we have a cap on Illuvials too if I'm not mistaken

[rigid maple]

and i am proposing selling you good stat illuvials so you dont have to go into the overworld to get good stats....

[bold orbit]

it is capped by new sets.
during the set illuvials are infinite

[agile ferry]

It wont be unlimited tho, its only for a matter of time

[merry marsh]

There are so many ways to control the number of perfect stats produced. We can even set a percentage and if this has been reached no new perfect stats can be minted. Only if new non perfects are found and minted in the OW this cap opens up again.

This would also mean no more stats upgrades when the set is done and closed.

We can also say that 80% perfect stats need to come from the OW, the rest from upgrades.

[icy vine]

So you want to control the ratio for perfects vs non perfects

[merry marsh]

Maybe, I am just throwing stuff out to show that there are ways to find a compromise solution.

[icy vine]

I mean, there are always going to be compromise solutions if what you're aiming for is to give more progression options for bonus stats, but that compromise usually is at the cost of going against the initial goal of RNG bonus stats in the first place which is to increase the value and rarity spread.

Our entire economy is based on that rule. Perfect stats are meant to be rare and hard to obtain

[agile ferry]

This isnt just about rerolling or burning to perfect stats, this also allows it to get better stats in order to than use it for fusing which again hurts rarity.

you want better stats, go farm it in overworld or buy off market or fuse and get lucky.

that literal concept helps with marketplace, overworld, fuel, burning

[icy vine]

If we start messing with this now, we'd have to also redesign how the economy works because the main driving force for people to keep farming OW is to chase the perfect stats.

The only problem right now is that's the ONLY OW content we have for progression, so it feels terrible that the only way to progress is through RNG or by paying for it.

But give the team some time. They're working on OW content and hopefully there will be more progression content built in there instead of just bonus stats

[agile ferry]

Yeah, im not saying ill be opposed to touching stats forever. Even though I believe it is a horrendous idea.
But, this is definitely not the right time for it.

[icy vine]

Most I'd prefer to see is to just change the scaling down from 10% intervals if it really needs it

[agile ferry]

the whole point of a ranked system is to place you accordingly.

like in Gods Unchained, there was a rewards system for all divisions.

like Diamond had much more rewards than Platinum, Platinum more than Gold, Gold more than Silver, and so on

these rewards outside of the airdrop, can be D1sks, emotes, cosmetics, and so on

[merry marsh]

Fusing is already a form of stat rerolls. We accept it and according to Kieran there have been internal discussions if this focus on creating new and good Illuvials was right and it should have come from OW instead. I am not saying I know the answer. But a stats upgrade is just another mechanic and we don’t have to give it free reign. It could be a mechanic that sits besides fusion and is more of a carrot for those who want to bond to their favourite Illuvial and upgrade it instead of selling and buying a new one.

I personally would feel better if I knew I had a chance to upgrade one stat by +1. It would be fun to work towards this by levelling it up etc.

[icy vine]

What do you by "it should have come from OW instead?"

[agile ferry]

oh god.

[merry marsh]

Less Fusion, more OW chances to find good Illuvials.

[merry marsh]

We are all different, some just like to grind and improve the stats by clicking buttons in Zero. Like a pet that you feed and take care off.

[icy vine]

Ahh, so finding the Illuvial vs making it...

[merry marsh]

Yes, Kieran said in an interview that game designers wanted to favour Fusion, but he thinks OW hunting should be the focus.

We have hunters, crafters, grinders, fighters etc. in our community.

[icy vine]

Breeders

[merry marsh]

We need something to do for all of them.

[agile ferry]

i have this, youre trying to tell me its a good idea that i can just do something and ill get that 1+ stat and this becomes perfect?

[merry marsh]

No, read Aaron’s idea. This would not be possible.

I would not like this to happen. This would destroy the value and time you invested.

[agile ferry]

aarons was playing devils advocate and said he does not advocate doing it

[merry marsh]

It is still an idea, no matter how he thinks about it.

[agile ferry]

bad idea

yall need to stop complaining and start grinding is whats the issue here.

[merry marsh]

Ok, you are as tough as Vetemor. You know what happened to him.

[icy vine]

The main thing I get from you is that you really want to feel like you connected to 1 Illuvial you spent a ton of time and effort on, and the problem is when you find a better stat Illuvial, it feels bad to start over... Like if your cat died and you got a new one... Just isn't the same

[agile ferry]

vetemor and I are not even close to comparison. The guy fuds the game every chance he gets.
i just make sure you guys dont do absolute moronic things to this game

like your buddy ErzaDon suggesting to stop focus on Leviathan and prioritize Ascendent

like how can i take anything serious from what he says after he says things like that

when someone says things like that and at same time tells you that rerolls/burn is a good thing... yeah you should start questioning if it actually is. kek.

[merry marsh]

This was not a good idea, but everyone can make a mistake. This does not invalidate the rest. No, you are not Vetemor. But you are on an extreme position. I don’t understand why. If there wasn’t already a reroll with fusing I could understand that you don’t want a slippery slope.

[merry marsh]

Yes, for the Pokémon style player.

[agile ferry]

i was also against fusing since the start as i was opposed to auto-scan. i told them fusing hurts the true rarity of the illuvials. now you guys are trying to make it even worse with these rerolls/burning to get better stats.
no thank you. were not screwing this whole marketplace.

i have currently over 2,000 hours played in the game, and been around here for much more.
The ONLY thing i am heavily opposed to is touching stats.

you want to give more rewards to casual ranked, fine go, whatever split it even, spit it this way that way, whatever.
stay away from touching stats.

this fusing illuvials system is more than enough. you can argue it fits the lore or whatever.
anything beyond this is a destruction to the marketplace.

if you cant tell, its the very reason why right now you can buy T5 Stages 2s, and 3s for $20+.
aint no way it sells for that price without fusing. you know how hard it is to find S2 and S3 Tier 5s in overworld?

so youre telling me you want to add an easier way to get better stats on top of that? yeah man, if you cant see this will absolutely destroy the marketplace completely than i dont know what else to tell you

[merry marsh]

Then make fusion way more expensive or time consuming. We need to adjust the economy until it works (and we need to define what that means).

[agile ferry]

like at this stage, im not really for removing fusing, but just the fact that if they announced that fusing is being removed, what do you think will happen to the markeplace of s2 and s3s. it will skyrocket.
and the fact that it will do that, should tell you what the reason is why the floors of some things are the floors.

because the easier you make things to attain, the less valuable they become.
so no. stat rerolls and what not is not the way.

[merry marsh]

Or attach a metadata "Found in the OW". I would say that collectors like me would attach value to this metadata, especially when we visualize it.

[agile ferry]

it is in the metadata.... it says Captured By or Fused By

[merry marsh]

Oh yes, you are right. Maybe it should be more prominent and maybe have additional utility.

[agile ferry]

this was also an idea i suggested and was implemented

including the Sanctum Mesa rangers spawning and running around WITH voice chat. and other things that thankfully have been and are working on being implemented

[agile ferry]

with this they have to add proximity voice chat or it just defeats the purpose, this will make sanctum mesa/overworld much more engaging/active

[merry marsh]

Improbable M2 has spatial voice chat and support for thousands of players. At some point Illuvium might want to look at it.

[agile ferry]

also, couldnt be interesting if you can also right click the ranger in the sanctum mesa and see their profile, this is where User Account Level's can come into play, which you can add burning illuvials as milestone points to level up account and so on.

ex: Quest "Atlas on Fire" = Burn 5 atlas and receive 10,000 Experience Points toward your User Account Level.

[icy vine]

Then why not consider the last idea we talked about, where you can save your Illuvials data onto a "genetic imprint" or a "soul bond" item. That burns your original NFT and you can use this item to transfer your original Illuvials progression state onto the new Illuvial with the better bonus stats. From a lore perspective, it will be completely identical in personality and traits but just with a new body.

That way we don't have to mess with the core bonus stat mechanics, but you still get to carry on your progression from your original Illuvial.

[merry marsh]

I would prefer this instead: #1291608494692241541 message @agile ferry what do you think ?

[icy vine]

Ah right... I never quite understood what you were getting at. Is it that you can build up a progression meter that can temporarily boost the bonus stats for the season? So players who have 5 stat Illuvials start at max, whereas lower stat Illuvials need to train a bit before getting the max stats?

And all that bonus stat progress resets to your Illuvials base bonus stat levels

[merry marsh]

For game modes other than Leviathan the combined stats from paid and trained are used. So I could pay for an Illuvial with as good stats as I can afford and then train it to perfect stats. But these trained stats would not be honoured in Leviathan.

[icy vine]

Ahhh

But game modes other than Leviathan don't honor the bonus stats already... Are you suggesting they should so that way we can have progression with bonus stats

[icy vine]

I think I get it now. That does make sense to me and still keeps Leviathan mode pure

[merry marsh]

All other game modes should honor the bonus stats in this model. This would give casual players a progression and nice goal to reach and add more variety to game play. On this path they will spend money to speed up progression, Zero land can have Training Gyms etc. All without affecting the hard core stats from OW by separating trained from paid and not mixing it up.

[icy vine]

Maybe you should start a thread about this and see what others have to say. So far, I don't see an issue with it.

[merry marsh]

Ok

[finite imp]

I have been following the thread since some days (just reading the post( but i think it is time to give my honest opinion about this:

Stats Reroll:
First of all i'm against everything that touch stats from an Illuvial, this will mess the rarity thing which is something that people loves to search in the Overworld, also when i started to play i was hype about finding rare illuvials then i realize i could fuse 3 stage 1 to get a stage 2 which i did not like it but i adapted to this.

Current Problem:
I see that you guys want to balance the leviathan with the casual mode and honestly it is not possible, casual is just for casual players people who play 2-3 hours a day or for people who are afraid to invest because they want to continue take out all the money for airdrop and keep winning 40ILV doing missions that you need to spend like 1hour daily.

In the other hand you have the Leviathan tryhard guys, people who invest heavy in buying good illuvials and help the marketplace to keep the movement, also with the tournaments/leaderboards people will see the masterpieces using in the battleboard and those illuvials will be famous for an average of time (till there is a patch note or something else)

1- If you dont have time to grind Overworld:

• Buy Illuvials on IlluviDex
• Start with Casual tournaments to get some money so you can then BUY something in the marketplace and not SELL everything.

2- If you dont have time to level up your Illuvials which take lot of time and effort:

• Buy Illuvials on IlluviDex level 50-60
• Start leveling your illuvials
• Sit and wait the Gym on the Land. (comfort one)

Please do a test and make a "tournament pre season 3", and see who are the base player foundation, since there are no rewards the minority are playing but this minority is the one who will remain.

Conclusion

• Low invest should receive low rewards
• High invest should receive high rewards (because players help with the economy with the game)

[crisp pier]

This is way to web3 based and won't allow the game to proceed to crossover to web 2 and in that case everything is worthless. The best bet may be not to do Stat re rolls but instead build a different ownership model that is more like ascendant and turn not focus on leviathan at all but have casual and ranked with our current player base but casual and leviathan (as it is) will kill the game because the conversion rate will be 0 and those in casual will just be bots and extractor but will be 99.9% of the player base

Everyone is to focused on their precious stats and Not the long term health and growth of the game as a whole if your not willing to rerolled stats I don't think pepole are being flexible enough because this is like seriously the lightest possible touch

THe Math is pretty Clear we destroy 60% of the illuvials on the market cresting 10to 25% more ok stats 5 ton10% Good stats and less than 1% more perfect stats like literally probably 2 new perfect stats and over all we increase demand for stats by a ton by making leviathan the only ranked mode

[agile ferry]

this guys math is completely off, all fugazi numbers

once again, he recently joined discord and suggested that we should remove Leviathan and focus on Ascendent, no need to take what he says seriously at this point

[visual whale]

i wasnt online when this whole discussion started^^
but just my opinion is too... when we touch the stats, this game will definitely crash i think.
do different tournament modes with different prices... one with high prices with stats counted... maybe one with lower prices in which all stats are automatically maxed out...
make a f2p version with untrabable stuff...
or do something else... whatever it is... but dont touch stats i think...and im out again XD

[unkempt sluice]

The goal of NFT is to be immutable, like a real card. If you buy a pokemon card you cannot change its stats with some reroll

[merry marsh]

New NFT standards have been invented to specifically support gaming assets with dynamic metadata to support progression of assets in games.

[unkempt sluice]

Yeah and this should be used for the exp, not the stats

[merry marsh]

Yes, this can be discussed, but I wanted to make the point that gaming assets CAN have updateable metadata.

[unkempt sluice]

Yeah I know that they can, but it is still against the philosophy of an NFT

[merry marsh]

I am actually more convinced now that we should not modify existing stats. But I still keep an open mind.

[unkempt sluice]

Only way it would make sense is stats reroll for weapon

[merry marsh]

No, an NFT really just establishes ownership of something.

[unkempt sluice]

Or drone augments. Anything that is not an illuvial

Well yeah, if you establish the ownership of a card, you cannot erase the stats on that card. Illuvials are suppose to be similar to pokemon card, but onchain

[merry marsh]

I would say we should keep the existing stats and should there be any sort of changes/additions then they should be stored in a separate metadata field. We should never erase the inital stats.

[agile ferry]

https://tenor.com/view/dumb-huh-stupid-idiot-gif-5042504

[crisp pier]

No but you can trade 5 of them in for a new one?

What if instead we had a mechanice ( Theortically ) That Said Recycle Illuvials into Either Fuel or BONUS Engron Energy on your next Run? Say burn 20 Illuvials get a bonus 50% energy on your next run? Would that be an acceptable burn mechanic? I mean i didn't change stats but i did something much much worse

[unkempt sluice]

Yes that is what the marketplace is for

[merry marsh]

I agree that stats should not be touched, because I think there is a better way to give Illuvials with any stat a much better utility with this proposal: https://discord.com/channels/760344898200666112/1292423486626856961

Let me know what you think.

[hearty nexus]

The fact that illuvial stat reroll is even Beeing discussed is mind boggling to me. Anyone with the slightest IQ @IlluviumLabs should have put a stop to this conversation the moment it was proposed. ANY SORT OF STAT CHANGES OTHER THAN FUSING WILL KILL THIS GAME.

The moment this is implemented I am dumping all tokens / illuvials / land.

[agile ferry]

https://tenor.com/view/shia_labeouf-clap-gif-12446003

[merry marsh]

Yes, the better approach is to give all Illuvials more utility, not just perfect stats. At the moment only perfect stats are useful, which is not good for Illuvium.

[coral estuary]

I agree in principle with this. My current stand is not to allow any rerolling of stats.

Just like in any TCG game there will be a lot of cheap and unwanted cards that wont see competitive play.

Imma quote here what I shared with the council on my stance on this and how I have suggested tournaments would be:

I havent really read any good reason why stat rolling should be allowed. My current position is not to allow this as it devalues current high level illuvials. Though im open to a summary of why it should be allowed.

Regarding Tournaments and Leviathan, my current push is that you have monthly (3) qualifiers under the regular gauntlet with a big prize pool Leviathan gauntlet tournament at the end of the quarter. The thought process is as follows:

1. One big tournament prize pool is more eye catching and would attract the web 2 pros (Marketing + acquisition)
2. You lead the players to leviathan during the qualifiers. "Oh I qualified for the big prize pool leviathan tournament. I have 1-3 months to go build my leviathan team for it" (pushes people to buy on Illuvidex [demand] and/or to level their illuvials in OW [replayability])
3. Youre not just giving the ILV prize pool to the ones who currently have a kick ass team (catering to a handful of people only)
4. Lessens the tournaments manpower and time needed
   a. instead of having two tournaments every month you only have 1 (except for the last month which is the big leviathan tournament OR we do 3 mos qualifier 4th month leviathan = 3 Leviathan tournaments a year)
   b. Lesser official tournaments gives way to Guild and Grass roots tournaments for the other weekends

On Leviathan Levels, I believe Labs is looking to scale this down for tournament and competitive purposes.

Oh forgot to add is that monthly tournaments shouldn't be the only qualifier. People can qualify by hitting top x a month as well. So it's more inclusive. Don't have time to grind leaderboard? Try monthly qualifier. Or vice versa

This way, the 'casual' players still has a chance to compete on even playing fields (regular monthly qualifiers).

[unkempt sluice]

I agree with this. I think there should be 3 types of games:

1: Casual (Free to play),
2: Ownership (and stats are not used)
3: Leviathan (where stats are important)

I think the second mode should be included in the revamped Arena Ascendant and the deck builder, alongside leviathan.

This way we do not touch stats, they are still really important, and low stats cards still have some utility.

[merry marsh]

I proposed this as a solution for #2 but with stats : https://discord.com/channels/760344898200666112/1292423486626856961

[agile ferry]

have you also seen how Gods Unchained formated their daily/weekly division rewards?
so first people would play to be placed into their appropriate divisions, than you would play a certain amount of games like 15 or 25 and each win you would get certain amount of points.
At the end, the top players would receive their prizes based on placement.

Diamond would get more than Gold, Gold more than Silver, Silver more than Bronze, etc

which gave incentive for each division of players to have an opportunity to earn something, whether it can be Emotes, D1sks, Boards, Packs, Skins, Fuel, whatever.

maybe a concept like that can be something to think about

[coral estuary]

Can share that @frank shadow has pushed a similar airdrop rewards system similar to this. i like it as well. Axie did something more simple where its X games you earn a limited amount of token per day then theres a payoff at the end of the season. Im all for this cause the current problem with the season is you never know what ILV you gonna get. With this kind of setup you can calculate and push yourself. Oh im a few games away from Gold. Ill play more and see if I can get the most out of my season

Oh by the way its off topic so might be best to start a new thread

[main hollow]

we saw how quickly the team finalized the airdrop for S2. maybe it is time to display the overall P2A leaderboard, instead of just showing the rank. even better showing the ILV amount, subject to end of season finalization

[merry marsh]

Why do we accept that there is a majority of unwanted cards ? Why not make them useful ?

[coral estuary]

you devalue everything else. With stat rerolling youre not increasing the value of the 'unwanted illuvials' you are literally devaluing the sought after illuvials because theyre no longer rare. Rarity will only be based on tier/stage and not just tier/stage and stats. An unintended consequence here is that Leviathan just becomes youre regular casual mode since everyone can get the best illuvial.

[merry marsh]

I agree that stats should not be touched, because I think there is a better way to give Illuvials with any stat a much better utility with this proposal: https://discord.com/channels/760344898200666112/1292423486626856961

Let me know what you think.

[icy vine]

Maybe they can be useful in some way in the future, but we shouldn't try to make them useful by changing the current system so drastically. We need to think more forward and systematically. The best solutions will come if you remember that these games are interoperable, and new games and systems will affect all other games in different ways too.

Think of it like adding more pieces to the equation of:

Overall power = bonus stats + level + a + b + c, etc

And depending on the game mode, it might not matter to have perfect stats either. I wrote a short bit of a shower thought on this if you can read it:

https://discord.com/channels/760344898200666112/1292450551627513857

The future is still unwritten, and that's where we'll find better answers for the "unwanted cards" imo

[merry marsh]

But I don’t want to change the current system. I just want to add a new mode to Arena that gives these Illuvials a much needed game/utility to play.

[agile ferry]

the 1 thing i dont get is what you mean by giving these illuvials a much needed utility to play?
why would you use shitty illuvials for play?
why even capture shitty illuvials in the mindset of using for play?
im sure there will be a burning mechanism for skins, cosmetics, and things of that nature added at some point in time where the shitty illuvials can be utilized.

[merry marsh]

Because they are cheap and we want to bring new players into Illuvium and experience ownership. These new players will be the buyers of expensive perfect stats in the future.

[agile ferry]

well you need to own the appropriate illuvial in order to use it in 1v1 Ascendant mode

outside of things like that, it makes no sense as to why one should be looking to use shitty illuvials for any mode involving stats

and definitely should not be capturing shitty illuvials with the mindset of using it for stat based play

[merry marsh]

But this mode is attractive to new players, don’t you think ? https://discord.com/channels/760344898200666112/1292450551627513857

[merry marsh]

We can either have the existing few hundred/thousand existing Illuvial owners play Arena for ILV rewards, or bring millions of new players into Illuvium. I prefer the later, as this is the only way for long term success.

[agile ferry]

its very easy to say bring in millions of new players mate.
no matter what you do, without proper marketing youre not getting millions of new players
team hasnt even started that process, simply because it isnt the right time yet

[merry marsh]

No, we need to get Arena and a few other things fixed. But we are not talking about today here, but about the future.

[agile ferry]

well yeah we can say the same for bringing hundred thousands/millions of player in the future for gauntlet

[merry marsh]

I think there is agreement that Illuvium wants millions of players, or not ?

[agile ferry]

IMO if they ever decide to add a new game, it should be a MOBA, than we would be like League of Legends, with a MOBA and a TFT style games.
1 map, we already have the character models, etc.

regardless, as far as all these other stuff go, they can do what they want im not heavy for or against things unless its touching stats (things that can destroy marketplace) or new pay to cheat additions.

[agile ferry]

of course... we all want, but its easy to just SAY "hey if we add this were gonna get millions of players"

but its a whole another thing to actually get it.

[merry marsh]

My proposal is not about a new game and does not touch stats or is pay to cheat, but it opens Arena competitive game play for potentially millions. No one knows if they will come, but the chances are better.

[coral estuary]

Do we really want a new game mode or do we want to fix the ones we currently have first? Gauntlet is overtaking ascendant since the latter doesnt feel great to play. Should we abandon it fully and focus on a new one? Im not quite convinced. Id rather they fix it since the dev time should be less than creating a new game mode

[rugged vortex]

Finish gauntlet and fix ascendant before anything new is even considered. Then once these 2 start to get saturated playerbases we can introduce a new mode/game but that should be like a year into the future at least

[merry marsh]

My proposal is just a small modification to Gauntlet/Ascendant, not a completely new game mode. It has many advantages and no disadvantage. I would even go so far as to say that it is just a modification to Leviathan that allows everyone to play Leviathan. Why would anyone not be happy about increasing the player base as soon as possible (maybe after next season and we ironed out more bugs) ?

[merry marsh]

I changed the title of my proposal, because I learned that it is actually a modification of Leviathan, not a new game mode.

[rugged vortex]

The point of leviathan modes is to create demand for higher stat illuvials, I don't see why it should be tweaked. We have the non leviathan modes for mainstream play, which means there is a place for everyone. It's just a matter of making the games as fun and addictive as possible.

[merry marsh]

With my proposal there is still demand for high stats Illuivals, it just raises the demand for not so perfect Illuvials and increases the player base. It does not lower the demand for high stats Illuvials and if we want to encourage buying perfect stats Illuvials, we can assign higher ILV point reward percentages to high stats.

[rugged vortex]

I don't see what's the point, once the leviathan queues/leaderboards get saturated, the elo/rank system will take care of the rest. Bottom rankings will be populated by people with the bad stats illuvials, middle would be people with decent illuvials and the top will be occupied by the whales with perfect illuvials and some with almost perfect but better knowledge of the game. And if some of the lower ratings are complaining they are there because of the stats, they can always go compete in the non leviathan modes or aquire better stats through OW or the dex.

I don't understand where is the problem, to me it seems it's working as intended.

[merry marsh]

With your approach you divide the player base into many subdivisions that cannot be queued up against and even inside those subcategories especially mainstream gamers will complain, that those with better Illuvials have better chances. This is not fair skill based game play.

[rugged vortex]

I'm not dividing anything, this is how ladders work.

Why would mainstream gamers complain, if the main competitive modes will be non leviathan and thus trigger no stat imbalances? Those are the web2 modes.

And then for the whales/web3/more adventurous players we have leviathan.

[merry marsh]

Ok, so if you want to keep Leviathan as is, then let’s apply my proposed modifications to the web2 modes.

[rugged vortex]

Non leviathan gauntlet is already f2p, what's there to modify?

[merry marsh]

This is what I would modify: #1292423486626856961 message

[agile ferry]

The only thing dividing player base is Ascendant. I dont think you guys really realize how many modes were gonna have.
Gauntlet Casual
Gauntlet Leviathan
Gauntlet Casual Ranked
Gauntlet Leviathan Ranked

Ascendant Casual
Ascendant Leviathan
Ascendant Casual Ranked
Ascendant Leviathan Ranked

lol. You sure you want to keep Ascendant in?

[agile ferry]

Im for focusing on gauntlet and removing ascendant temporarily.

[merry marsh]

My proposal allows for matching all kinds of players and would therefore reduce the number of queues. Ascendant is supposedly being revamped, but we are not told what. We have to wait and give feedback then. I agree that the less modes the better. Ideally we would start with only one or two really good modes.

[rugged vortex]

I've voiced this many times before, to previous IMC, to team members, and included it in the town hall questions thread (wasn't asked in the ama, tnx), and no answer on it. Possibly it's an issue, but removing ascendant is not it. Reduce the number of queues.

[agile ferry]

update: so there is going to be a rework to Ascendant mode, will have to wait and see before affirming my thoughts.
but seems like we will no longer need to go to a browser to edit team, which is a decent change.
my main concern for ascendant is the gameplay, so will have to see how much is changed, but not having to go through a separate browser is a good start.

[rugged vortex]

lol

[crisp pier]

This is Ideal and thej Perfect Model Our playerbase is so Low it is not Sustainable that really is the core issue. You WILL NEVER GET Conversion from Casual F2P to Levithan . I Don't think anyone is understanding how Rare even GOOD stated illuvials are ( in in 700) or in 7600 thats for the ones the top tier players are going to want . Levithan Can Not Will Not be The Top E-sport. The more i lve don e the math i don't think STat Re-Rolls are the problem. Mathmatically this wouldn't do anything but increase teh value of all illuvials . The problem is Levithan Game Mode Can NOT be the e-sport so i'm really over this disccusion Now I don't think theirs anyway to Save it for Gauntlet. We HAVE to hvae an Ownership Model Gauntlet thats Normalized Levels and Stats.

[rugged vortex]

You keep bringing leviathan as esport, where did you read that? It was always meant to be a p2w whale mode while the non leviathan modes will cater to esports with normalized stats.

The point of leviathan was never to be an esport as far as I'm aware, and to play it you don't need perfect stat illuvials since your opponent won't have those either. If they do they would be near the top of the ladder where they play vs players with similar deck quality/skill.

[agile ferry]

at this point, this guy is out of his mind if he thinks stat rerolls will make the value of all illuvials increased
someone call a medic, hes coping

[gritty pasture]

My problem rn is that there are too many perfect stats.
I hope we somehow get to make them even rarer.
I would like to see only 1-2 perfect stat illuvials per team in a highly competitive scene. This way the lower stats would be the norm

[rugged vortex]

That's a by product of more people farming ow than there is demand for the assets. We need more fresh new players with demand for assets, cause right now it's mostly land owners who pre paid for their fuel 5 years in advance.

Once the demand is there it should stabilize or even reverse greatly making them super expensive, depending on player growth.

[gritty pasture]

I hope you are right 🙏

[sinful kelp]

this stems from the fact that we can see stats before capture. We're only capturing the good stat ones.

why waste a shard on a bad one when they sell for less than the shard price...

[gritty pasture]

I hope we get a burn system that encourages the burn of high stat illuvials. Maybe you get more essence if you burn a higher %
I want the ones above 250% to be a rarity

[sinful kelp]

yeah maybe. We'll see what they have in store.

I just hope illuvial combat doesn't take long to be introduced, otherwise set 1 good stat illuvials won't be that rare at all.

[gritty pasture]

Exactly. We can say we are lucky the playerbase is low, otherwise we would have been flooded with full stats.
Imagine millions of players farming perfect stats

[bold orbit]

i guess that has a lot to do with fusion being pretty cheap.
people roll the dice and get lucky

[sinful kelp]

you need to have good bases to 'get lucky'

[gritty pasture]

Also very true.
And also i have a problem when i dont get lucky

[sinful kelp]

I don't think fusion should be much mor expensive

[bold orbit]

sure, but there's a ton of illuvials with 2 or even 3 stats on max or almost max and the rest super bad.
With fusion being cheap all those get cought and fused.
Sometimes bad luck, but sometimes good luck.
Check out how many of the perfect stats got cought.
I don't have numbers, but from looking at marketplace i get the feeling it's 80%+ perfect stats being fused, if not higher

[agile ferry]

https://tenor.com/view/stop-it-get-some-help-just-stop-please-stop-stop-it-meme-gif-26307878

[sinful kelp]

yes I agree with that. Just don't think increasing the fusing costs is the way to go. The fusion price shouldn't be a deterrent to do so. The problem is with the bases, capturing an illuvial with at least 2-3 max stats is the current meta.

[agile ferry]

exactly. been saying this for god knows how long. fusing has made everything easier to attain thus the easier you attain something the more it will devalue. There has definitely been even more good stat illuvials, its just been used to fuse for holos/dark holos. And for people to think adding another system like stat-rerolls will increase the value of all illuvials... like what!?!?!?!

[bold orbit]

yea, but that's just meta because fusion is cheap 😄

[sinful kelp]

and because you can choose what you capture, otherwise everyone would capture based on the tier&stage. Fusion needs to be cheap.

[agile ferry]

https://tenor.com/view/tilda-tilda-swinton-reroll-tilda-reroll-gif-1217453780650550564

[sinful kelp]

there's 37 thumbs down, and not a single good argument in favour of re-rolling. I don't think you need to get so worked up. This won't get implemented by the looks of it, it's just community discussion.

Instead of this I think a much more prolific discussion would be around the burning mechanism.

[agile ferry]

yeah, after Auto Scan i cant risk not giving it my all for something so detremental to this game.

[sinful kelp]

lol, like if auto-scan is the problem...

[bold orbit]

sure.
Not sure about how to feel about not being able to see stats.

• Less decisions making during a run, so takes away advantage from knowledgable people and plays more in favor of casuals.
• I guess pretty much everything except worst stat illuvials get more expensive, not sure we are not already on the expensive side for a game. (Keep in mind, the massive value increase for illuvials of set1 will come over time, like in set3+ when there already many set1 illuvials got lost in dead accounts, burning mechanism etc. and new player or existing player need some of them for current meta)

[sinful kelp]

not so sure about that second point, since we'll have variations of the same set 1 illuvials. But we'll see.

[agile ferry]

yeah, its nice for people to see the stats of illuvials before catching, especially if theyre losing the shards if they miss, which also gives less excuse for having bad stats.. because you saw it before capturing it, made a choice.

[sinful kelp]

I ask again what's the problem with auto scan?

[bold orbit]

yea, but variations don't change that fact. If you need an inferno phantom for your team setup, a blue frost slayer rhamphire doesn't helpt you, but the inferno phantom rhamphyre does

[sinful kelp]

true true

[gritty pasture]

I have a 👍 and a 👎 to maintain my neutrality and discussions open

[sinful kelp]

I doubt this thread has anything more to give. We should instead be discussing the burning mechanism...

Kieran mentioned in the Beyond townhall that illuvials could be burnt for d1sk fragments

not sure where that came from

[gritty pasture]

I like that idea, as i want to get involved more into beyond

[sinful kelp]

yes but they also mentioned substance in the past, and it being used to power up your faction's spaceship.

[gritty pasture]

https://tenor.com/view/why-not-both-why-not-take-both-gif-11478682

[sinful kelp]

well that's the thing, I think this would be a much more crucial discussion to have than this re-rolling crap.

[rugged vortex]

Sniff the substance for bonus attack spd is my first suggestions

https://tenor.com/view/marine-starcraft-sc2-terran-dancing-gif-17655571

[sinful kelp]

https://tenor.com/view/macron-drogue-macron-emmanuel-emmanuel-macron-macron-coke-gif-19170981

[sinful kelp]

now that's good game design.

[rugged vortex]

agreed

[agile ferry]

https://tenor.com/view/dwayne-johnson-the-rock-wwe-smell-gif-16277621

[rugged vortex]

https://tenor.com/view/pouring-flour-baby-yoda-viralhog-pour-baking-gif-17948170

some dried up ilvs powder action

[crisp pier]

This sttatments crazy you don't understand MATH if we have millions of players farming your demand would be higher becvuase you have million of players and still only 1 out of every 46k ilvvuials would be perfect stated so odds don't change demand does perfect stated illuviasl would be selling for 10k + Its the Odds thats the problem not the number of players increase players increase demand and makes the odds more Extreme and the price would go up

This thread also has nothing to do with perfect stated illuvials. It has to do with Bad stated illuvials being recycled into average stated illuvials.

[agile ferry]

this guy is also not putting in stats that have no movement speed and max out the others, those are still considered in the perfect stat category right now. and its not even about just perfect stats, someone having a gyro with no movement speed and missing 10% resist vs. someone who has it all maxxed out, doesnt mean that guy is gonna win. The difference is not much once youre at same level with near stats. Than it will come down to skill

again this is why we will have ranked. you will compete based within your rank, just like you will in Casual Ranked

https://tenor.com/view/git-gud-viking-gif-6627407648198895902

[icy vine]

Does anyone have resources to show the overall boost in stats at level 60 for a 4-stat vs a 5-stat?

[gritty pasture]

All i want is that the illuvials with over 200% stats ratio decreases so lower stats get played more. By not seeing stats before capturing might solve this

[hearty nexus]

It's a 10% difference on all stats from base stat

[hearty nexus]

No

[gritty pasture]

No, it won't solve? Or? I need more 😂

[hearty nexus]

Leave the illuvials alone

[gritty pasture]

They are leaved alone 🤷‍♂️

[agile ferry]

No as in Git Gud. No complaining. Actually grind. No spoon feeding.

https://tenor.com/view/dark-souls-git-gud-gif-16530511115199627055

[hearty nexus]

People keep asking for them to get changed because they didn't get what they wanted on the first capture or fuse. Cry babys

[gritty pasture]

It has nothing to do with that. It actually involves more grinding

[agile ferry]

just joking brotherin

[gritty pasture]

https://tenor.com/view/tumuro-madelaine-red-nakangiti-ikaw-posing-gif-16779386

[agile ferry]

https://tenor.com/view/sus-bird-meme-wuewuewue-bird-gif-22093146

[icy vine]

It's kinda amazing how this thread just keeps going...

Will it still be active 1 month from now?

[gritty pasture]

Because everyone is replying

[hearty nexus]

We care about what happens next

[hearty nexus]

Only when they put the talks about stat rerolls to bed.

[icy vine]

Let's break 1000 replies everyone!

[agile ferry]

well when i hear insane things like ":Remove Leviathan and focus Ascendant", or "stat reroll will increase value of all illuvials" pretty sure gotta say something so no one else gets infected with that ridiculousness

[gritty pasture]

I dont think anyone is actually reading all of this. At least it seems like a very long debate

[agile ferry]

https://tenor.com/view/bubbles-trailer-park-boys-shock-gif-5615804

[agile ferry]

at this point im convinced ErzaDon is a secret agent from Riot Games to throw us off to the wrong path and destroy the game lmfao

[gritty pasture]

While we're still here, how can i make my high stat illuvials be more valuable while also make the game attract new players so i can live off dividends from ilv tokens?

[agile ferry]

level them up, make sure no stat rerolls/touching of stats, besides that its up to the team to make Casual mode really really good, which portion of players will be converted to Leviathan inevitably

[gritty pasture]

I am still surprised how i keep getting back to lol, even after years of not playing.

[gritty pasture]

A good ranked system might achieve this
Idk if it is a good idea, but i would make ranked only available for leviathan

[agile ferry]

nah ranked for casual and leviathan

[gritty pasture]

We need to promote the owning. Idk how though..

[agile ferry]

both are promoted ser we need both for sure

[gritty pasture]

On casual, people can play without buying a single illuvial. On leviathan, even a 10% increase is better

[agile ferry]

were trying to fix things that dont need to be fixed or neither are they broken.
a base illuvial is not meant to fight against a Leviathan illuvial

[sinful kelp]

https://discord.com/channels/760344898200666112/1289139868924117043

[agile ferry]

lets stop trying to intermix the two things. for gods sake lmfao. its 2 different modes.

[gritty pasture]

Oh yeah, forgot about this. Already upvoted it

[sinful kelp]

airdrop points for it should do the trick

[gritty pasture]

Anyways, i think this is all i have for now 🤷‍♂️
🫡

[crisp pier]

This is proably what will have to happen is adjust down the stat bonus given by each stat 5 = 50% will proably become 5=20% ( You just can't balance a game with that much diffrence in stats)

[gritty pasture]

I dont want that
I need my illuvials to get rarer, not worse
But i might be selfish

[crisp pier]

The biggest problem is the whales arguing for their own pocketbooks instead of the health of the game long term because they basically wanta get all the Leaderboards . Its intresting how they always argue for whats best for them they don't give a shit about the game. They where mad they only got 2 to 3k USD in rewards for season one already

[crisp pier]

it doesn't change the rariry of an illuval it changes the benfit of those

The better soultion i think would be allow recycle of illuvals either into re-rolls or bonus energy something to take them out and condience the illuvals top the top half of the scale.

Biggest problem in Illuvium , Whales = Want no one to get anything unless they spend 20k+, F2P= want everything to be free and only sell cosmetic.

[gritty pasture]

If we ever burn illuvials, we need to burn the high stat ones, not the bad ones.
I dont want to be 3 ophistos with 300% in game, i want to remain only one, or maybe not even one.ngive rewards to make the burn worth it. So players will decide between keeping the perfect illuvial, or burn it for that awesome reward

[crisp pier]

That doesn't make since from burning burn off the bad ones and raise the floor.

[gritty pasture]

I want to make people choose to burn that 300% illuvial for an awesome reward and be forced to get a lower stat and play with that.

[crisp pier]

no one is going to play with bad illuvials thats just not goingto happen why would you want to play worse that seems to suggest you want burning to be more profitable than playing?

[gritty pasture]

Maybe the reward is worth it?
Idk.. not speding too much thought about this

Anyway, i trust aaron and kieran
They know better
I am sure everything will be alright

[crisp pier]

They seem to have a generally good approach. Lets see what tehy have in mind HOW they do e-sports and leaderboards will show a lot

[icy vine]

I think the strat is to poach Parallel players or something like that. They see it as too difficult to convince web2 to try anything web3 so they're starting with players who are already in web3.

Feel free to correct me on that

[agile ferry]

either youre gonna be a whiner/complainer, or youre gonna grind and get your team. choice is yours.
also no one is forcing people to capture bad stat illuvials, you can literally see the stats before you capture. omegalul.
people will try to cope and find every excuse in the book to be lazy, i swear

[bold orbit]

https://tenor.com/view/this-is-the-way-this-is-the-way-mandalorian-mandalorian-i-have-spoken-baby-yoda-gif-24159898

[agile ferry]

bet you ErzaDon wont show you how many hours hes put in the game with all this talk.

[bold orbit]

now i'm curious how much you have 😛

[agile ferry]

possibly 5-10x he has

[bold orbit]

100h?

[agile ferry]

not even remotely close to that low

[bold orbit]

i bet 😄

[agile ferry]

Kids putting in 5-10x less hours saying why others have what they have is funny to me

[bold orbit]

https://tenor.com/view/mathu-vadalara-sri-simha-satya-ritesh-rana-telugu-gif-21173269

[hearty nexus]

I have to check but if I were to guess. I'm 1000+ hrs deep

[rustic burrow]

https://tenor.com/view/volteri-michael-sheen-gif-3291979551043568529

rookie numbers, 2481 hours, and I barely played lately

[merry marsh]

So ownership #2 would basically be the Ranked mode. Level would matter, but not Stats. I think this makes sense.

[agile ferry]

the thing is were gonna have so many modes and splits, than what, we have to add ranked to this as well? That will make it about 10 modes for gauntlet

[unkempt sluice]

I would not want that for gaunlet. But for the new ascendant I think having only mode 2 and 3 make sense

[agile ferry]

idunno #2 doesnt really make sense to me if you have casual and leviathan.

[unkempt sluice]

I would not have casual for ascendant

[merry marsh]

It makes sense for new players with not so good stats Illuvials, but I agree not for OGs.

[agile ferry]

its not a good enough mode to add is what i mean. to split players again

gain were talking almost 12 modes lol.

that mode is like everyone owns the illuvials and it just becomes another casual.

you end up with 2 casuals, its better to decide one of the 2, and i think between the 2 its better to do regular casual like we have now, where you dont need to own anything

[merry marsh]

I agree we have too many modes, but we need to give new players an easy path to ownership. Whatever that means. I am open to suggestions.

[crisp pier]

This is really the only way fowrad if we want our economy to work i Started a Post on Adding Ranked Gauntlet with Normalized Stats

Really only modes 2- 3 are need for both gauntlet and (new Ascendant) , casual can be where people play vs bots or for costum games and tourneys. You let the ranking adjust so new players will essentially also be playing agaisnt people that dont own so it essentily turns bronze ranks and below into your casual . But without having a diffrent que

[small rivet]

why is this still getting debated? just dont add stats reroll, simple.

[crisp pier]

Becuase its actually necessary for the health of the game that we do one of two things either Burn Away the bad illuvials OR , Create a play mode that lets them be played. I'm open to either but neither its not an option its a sucided path for the game.

I don't think everyone understand the path this is going to take. ( Keep Rare stats Rare) = Add a Burn Mechanic for the existing and future bad stat illuvials that adds some value since you basically only can get 1 good illuvial about every 5 ish runs . ( Make Stats don't matter ) = Well since no one can gett enough good stats we end up with 0 stats well that makes perfects stats worth lees . ( Next will get Increase the stat chances) = This will just directly make the game less challenging but cater to the influx of new players who can't get stats ) . ( finally will end up at Stat BOOSTING) = either temporary or permant stat boost for burns or for fuel or something will come out. The core problem is the Supply of Good STated Illuvials to the NEW game mode gauntlet is not suffcient to support Levithan which is our only real push of a Game mode. Again i have a pretty darn good team it would benfit me Not to have stat re-rolls . But Stat re-rolls have FAR less effect on the economy than the current fusing system has on the game. You could think of it like an Energy Refund.

[agile ferry]

👎 👎

[finite imp]

Erza I'm curious how you dont care about players that current play in overworld to catch rare illuvials stats, with this literally you "kill" the market and a good amount of players from OW.

Also it surprises me how worried you are about the "health of the game" since with this u are not helping in absolutely nothing the game.
Its like you want to buy all illuvials with $10 usd and then re roll them to get perfect stats or semi perfect or w/e stat u want and then play Leviathan and win $1k thats what u want?

Every new player that will come have 3 options:

1- Grind overworld and catch your team by yourself being consistent everyday.

2- $pend money to buy good stats illuvials in Illuvidex.

3- mix of option 1 and 2.

If a new player dont have time to grind 8-10hrs per day, casual is the way.. maybe he is good enough and will earn some money to buy a team or maybe to extract everything.

But if players dont invest money in upgrade their illuvials the game is gone.. this is not a charity game.

Players want everything easy/quickly to move to the next web3 hyped game and then go to the other one and the next then repeat.

Just grind and be consistent put a little effort and see the results

Take risks.. take chances..

[crisp pier]

It’s clear you haven’t actually understood what I’m saying. Let’s get one thing straight—I’m not talking about turning this game into some kind of team sponsorship deal where someone else makes all the money. This is a game, not a second job.

What I’m proposing is burning bad Illuvials to re-roll stats, at the same original odds, not guaranteeing perfect stats. This would help raise the base stats and reduce the extreme variation in stats that we currently see. By doing this, we would be giving a purpose to bad-statted Illuvials and keeping Leviathan Mode as the only necessary E-sports mode.

The math on this is straightforward: this system would result in fewer than four new perfect Illuvials with the current distribution. It simply allows for smoother progression in steps rather than forcing players into huge leaps of investment. This approach is good for every aspect of the game because it encourages more farming, more focused competition, and lets us focus on one main game mode—Leviathan.

If we don’t do this, we’re going to end up with bad options that fracture the player base. If Leviathan is going to be the central E-sports mode, we need a way to deal with bad Illuvials in a way that benefits the game. Otherwise, we’ll be forced to introduce yet another game mode to give these Illuvials a use, which only fractures the player base even more.

It’s simple: focus on one mode, keep the competition healthy, and stop pushing for systems that force massive investments or grind walls.

t
If we burn off Illuvials with horrible stats—those with 150% or less out of the possible 300% bonus stats—and redistribute them into the 150-300% range through a 3-to-1 burn rate, we’d end up with about 20% more Illuvials in the higher stat range, while reducing the total number of Illuvials by 50-60% overall.

By maintaining the original 1 in 46,000 chance of getting a perfect stat Illuvial, this process won’t flood the market with perfect stats. Instead, we’d see very few new perfects. This isn't about giving out perfect stats—it’s about raising base prices and helping Overworld grinders by making their catches more valuable.

In this mode, players start with a basic team of fairly-statted Illuvials at decent price, and they can focus on improving their team one or two Illuvials at a time, rather than needing an all-or-nothing approach. This spreads out progression, allowing players to gradually improve their decks. The burn system also helps remove bad Illuvials from players' hands, so they don’t feel burdened by them, and they can focus on competing in Leviathan.

This system would also funnel more players into Leviathan Mode, since more Illuvials would land in the top 50% stat range (150-300%), allowing more people to compete at a higher level. As a result, perfect Illuvials become even more desirable, and we’d see an increase in the value of all Illuvials, especially at the higher tiers.

This approach not only supports the game’s economy and helps Overworld grinders, but it also allows for smoother progression into Leviathan, keeping the focus on long-term competition and balance.

[agile ferry]

👎 👎

[crisp pier]

Anon i Guess you can still see my message dude your perma blocked no point ever trying to troll me anymore like you do the whole community.

[agile ferry]

this isnt a troll, im downvoting your horrendous suggestions, since as you stated you have me blocked, i cant react to the post with an emoji, so i reply to it instead to show my stance on what i believe to be detrimental and terrible for the game and its economy.

[finite imp]

I respect your opinion but i don't share it 👍

[restive wing]

Personally, I think it's a horrible idea, how are they going to make it possible to roleplay the stats of the illuvials, it wouldn't make sense to grind so much and what we've all grinded, literally the illuvials would have no value since you can just pick up anyone and roleplay them until they have good stats, I feel like it's a really bad idea...

[crisp pier]

YOu understand teh suggested System is to BURN 3-5 Illuvials to create 1 New One ( that would also have random stats ) ( so it could be all 0 stats or all perfect stats) the odds of Creating a Perfect stated burned roughly 120k illuvals to create it. Its not pay X fuel generate random stats and keep doing that till its over ?

What if we phrased it this way ( illuvial Recycler , Extract the Engron Energy of Illuvials to boost your next run ) Burn 5 illuvals gain 1000 extra energy on your next run?

[hearty nexus]

stats rerolls are not happening either way... its already been put to rest... so no need to elaborate on it anymore

heard the news today in ilv voice

[crisp pier]

Believe it when i see something offical . dev teams don't like to throw away what they are already building

[hearty nexus]

if the council members are not official enough then idk what u want

[restive wing]

I think it would be nice, but for people who have drones, the idea of ​​burning ILV and getting something is good, but I don't feel like that's the way to go.

[crisp pier]

If you think thats the case go back to your little anon cult , but im going to tkeep theorzing and dicuss whats best for the game not my own wallet

[crisp pier]

not need to keep disucssing it then you can move on

[agile ferry]

stat rerolls is not whats best for the game, especially its marketplace/economy.
you can gaslight all you want, but that aint gonna work here.

[agile ferry]

also, on the contrary, my decisions have always been for the games best interest in mind.
which is why when asked what i thought the split for the tournament/leaderboards should be i had both casual/leviathan as a split

[hearty panther]

Council members do rotate every 9 months. So maybe in 9 months when new council members are nominated 😄

[main hollow]

what was said? by who?

[hearty panther]

I said that with 37 downvotes and 0 upvotes it would be a miracle for this to come to an iip and thereby to a vote.
Moreover the team, as in Aaron, mentioned how he was not advocating for rerolls but asked to increase the power value by only a single point once as some sort of "devils advocate".

Overall, everyone so far seems to agree on staying away from rerolls. The team has better things to do and the rest of the community knows better than to poke this hornets nest

[hearty nexus]

Exactly his words.

[near mango]

Anything can happen with a GFP that gets proposed, approved community sentiment and passed by Councils

Nothing is ever set in stone and proposed changes can be pushed forward by the community

However, the feedback is very mixed on it, mainly in the camp of NO RE-ROLLING stats (so a change along these lines is highly unlikely)

It is alright to have healthy conversation about it, so I must disagree with this comment - if someone feels like sharing their opinion on the matter, this is the place to do it (Masterthread)

[hearty nexus]

Thanks for clarifying guys .

[near mango]

That's what we are here for!

Personally, i feel we can try to shift focus from "stat re-rolling" and take the conversation into other threads and ideas around burn mechanics. Burning mechanics would alleviate alot of players concerns around "bad stated illuvials" being useless and unusable

Onwards and upwards! 🚀

[hearty nexus]

Yes. I believe there is already a thread about burning Illuvials for XP 🙌

[agile ferry]

were okay with burning as long as it doesnt effect stats. there are numerous ways to implement burning illuvials without touching stats. Burn for skins, cosmetics, d1sks, battle boards, emotes, and so on.

[near mango]

I am quite aware of many players stance around the stats remaining untouched

Appreciate you both sharing the general post on burning ideas.

For anyone else seeing this message, there are other threads that are discussing these mechanic ideas at length - let's continue the conversation in the respective threads 😀

[agile ferry]

You can even add a daily or weekly raffle in the game in sanctum mesa where every illuvial burned gets you a specific amount of raffle tickets to win fuel or ilv or whatever. Theres just so many other ways.

[near mango]

Interesting concept 🔥Make a post about this - I am all for RnG related raffles

Just try to keep focus here around the feedback topic , so no ideas around burbing in this thread 🙏 (apart from the generalized comments above)

[coral estuary]

Can confirm this isnt even remotely near a priority for Labs. So this is just an exercise of ideas but nothing will be pushed forward

[main hollow]

oh ok

[sinful kelp]

https://tenor.com/view/doitdoit-gif-27670853

[agile ferry]

https://tenor.com/view/wrestler-woo-stoked-crazy-excited-gif-4961243