#IIP-XX Ensuring Fair leaderboard rewards for Illuvium Beyond

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

north trout
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Simple summary
This proposal aims to distribute the halted leaderboard rewards to the previous occupants of the top rankings prior to wave three commencing. Pausing the leaderboard rewards was done to ensure fair leaderboard rewards, but with the release of wave three, the leaderboard rankings may instead be unfairly affected. Wave three introduces new investors, new collections and may increase difficulty of obtaining the previously promised leaderboard rewards.

Overview
To correct the pause of leaderboard rewards, this proposal pushes for a number of steps to be taken.

  1. The secondary wallet feature needs to go live.
  2. The previous leaderboard holders should be granted time to sleeve their illuvitars.
  3. A snapshot must be taken before wave 3 commences.
  4. The missed rewards must be paid out to the players of the particular leaderboard rankings.
  5. Wave 3 starts normally after the previous steps are taken

These steps provide the missed rewards to the previous leaderboard rankers who would otherwise have to unfairly compete over them with new investors from wave 3.

Rationale
The investors that bought Illuvitars with the promise of getting leaderboard rewards now see those same rewards be halted until wave three starts. There was no communication as to the purpose of this pause except for a push towards migrating the assets. Migrating, however, would put your assets at risk so a longer pause was required until the wallet integration was supported. To ensure fair leaderboard rewards, this proposal aims to distribute the missed leaderboard rewards to the players that were previously in the top 100.

Full proposal:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1wYYVEM64gDLLYvDuhkpvWwoGWszLHh-p71YcjDkgyv0/edit?usp=sharing

Sponsor: @quiet light

Key contributor: @north trout

Google Docs
IIP-XX ensuring Fair leaderboard rewards for Illuvium Beyond

IIP-XX Ensuring Fair leaderboard rewards for Illuvium Beyond Simple summary This proposal aims to distribute the halted leaderboard rewards to the previous occupants of the top rankings prior to wave three commencing. Pausing the leaderboard rewards was done to ensure fair leaderboard rewards, ...

north trout
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To be the first on this. let me start with a hot take.
I would like to clarify that, while i helped write the proposal, I'm not fully in favor of it.

I understand that players in the top 100 of the leaderboard were expecting rewards and a quick fix to the pause. The team mentioned that the pause would be there to ensure fair reward distributions after the players migrate their assets. The issue with wallet support caused further delays that the team could not have predicted. Now, giving out the rewards to the previous leaderboard players would have been an easy decision to make. But as a marketing strategy, giving 2x or 3x rewards during the start of wave 3 to catch up on the missed rewards while boosting sales in Wave 3 and increasing liquidity on the market could be a more effective strategy. Both the DAO and the leaderboard holders would benefit from a livelier marketplace!

The leaderboard had already had months of rewards after wave 2 and most changes in position were finished. There was no competition and so these players had gotten rewards for a long time.

For these reasons, I can surely empathize with the sentiment in the proposal, but do not agree that it would the best decision from the DAO's perspective. The Beyond leaderboard participants imo should swallow this bullet as hard as it may be (yes i'm personally top 100 as well).

sour trellis
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The issue with wallet support caused further delays that the team could not have predicted

I don't believe this is entirely true as this feature was built in for Zero players, so the team was fully aware that people would want to keep their assets protected as best they could and would not feel safe transferring them to Passport.

Due to the integration being a little more tricky for Beyond, they likely shelved the idea for Beyond and hoped no-one would care or simply didnt believe the assets were worth protecting to begin with, either way, the burden due to the short comings of the teams lack of insight on the matter should not fall upon the player base.
Maybe I am being unfair there, who knows, but the sheer lack of communication on the matter, all we have is speculation.
Why was it built in for Zero and not Beyond?, I would love to know.

The leaderboard had already had months of rewards after wave 2 and most changes in position were finished. There was no competition and so these players had gotten rewards for a long time.

Wasn't it Beyond players that contributed immensely to the filling of the safety pool.
The rewards are a drop in a bucket compared to what the entirety of the player base contributed overall.
The delays were also only supposed to be short term to coincide with OB launch. Due to more delays on that front it pushed everything back with it and even in spite of the huge delays, wave 3 wasn't ready to go live alongside. None of which are the players responsibility.

Due to these delays the entire Beyond community have seen aftermarket volumes drop to near zero and the value of our assets plummet right alongside, and to then take away the one small reward that we was getting for riding all of this out, sheesh 😅 .

For these reasons, I can surely empathize with the sentiment in the proposal, but do not agree that it would the best decision from the DAO's perspective. The Beyond leaderboard participants imo should swallow this bullet as hard as it may be (yes i'm personally top 100 as well).

I also don't believe penalising your loyal playerbase is at all in the best interests of the DAO.

Nothing but love for you Garth, I just happen to strongly disagree with some of your points here Atlas_Love .

If the team would have been open and clearly stated that if we choose to delay wave 3, we will have to pause rewards, fair enough. This was never communicated and therefore players should be entitled to those rewards regardless.

manic adder
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I agree that this proposal makes more sense due to the lack of communication from the team on this point combined with the expectations of the Beyond support base.

I also am in favor of a more competitive start to Wave 3, and had the same thoughts as Garf, but it's clear that using the limbo paused rewards as that incentive will harm trust & retention of the current dedicated player base.

cursive mauve
dense locust
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I agree with what has been said so far and with the lack of communication but one thing I don't agree at all is this entitlement to any sort of reward when Beyond has been paused for almost a year and rewards kept going until last month.

From the DAO's standpoint I think we stand to benefit way more with returning the rewards along with wave 3.

sour trellis
north trout
# sour trellis > The issue with wallet support caused further delays that the team could not ha...

Maybe I am being unfair there, who knows, but the sheer lack of communication on the matter, all we have is speculation.

I don't know the specifics behind the timeline of the integration of the wallets either. I agree that open, active communication would have relieved the community from having to speculate around the matter. This proposal to me was purely there to set the stage for the debate, get everyone to chime in, good/bad.

I also don't believe penalising your loyal playerbase is at all in the best interests of the DAO.

But i also don't believe in giving too many rewards for no reason. Beyond continues to take ILV without new revenue coming in. At some point that becomes a liability rather than an asset. Naturally, the new wave would. But maybe there should be an end date to a specific wave's leaderboard rewards. - Until the waves are continuous of course.

Thanks for this opposing perspective, I am not much of a debater, (is why i'm here in ICC and wasn't looking to join IMC) and will instead way out the pro's and con's to then vote as objectively as I can on aspects. I'm still leaning towards having 2-3x rewards during wave 3, as we may not have issues retaining our leaderboard rankings with the crazy albums we created during the last waves anyways. It's basically good marketing, without actually doing a whole lot to "screw" with previous investors.
If they instead introduced a new leaderboard particular to wave 3, and multiplied those rewards by 2-3x, I would be very much opposed. But that's not the case.

dense locust
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And my point is that they did say the rewards would be paused. So why do we feel entitled to the rewards from this pause phase?

sour trellis
# dense locust Is it that simple though? Wave 3 was supposed to have come out months ago. Then ...

For me personally yes.
If the team had foreseen delays with OB and wave 3, they could have communicated a pause in rewards until everything is live. I'm sure most on the whole would be fine with that, including myself.
To pause rewards under the pretense of "issues" and to state that they would be paid, only to renege on that. Just looks disingenuous.

But i also don't believe in giving too many rewards for no reason. Beyond continues to take ILV without new revenue coming in. At some point that becomes a liability rather than an asset

Just for clarity, please can you confirm how much revenue Beyond generated for the DAO since inception.
Please can you then also calculate how many ILV have been distributed as rewards.
Should help to provide more perspective.

vagrant sigil
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Also; for most beyond players those rewards are insignificant from a monetary perspective. It’s all about trust, and fulfilling one’s commitments

sour trellis
dense locust
vagrant sigil
dense locust
# vagrant sigil Hmmm. Do not see how you can vote against this proposal while stating this. Coul...

I don't think this is what breaks trust, at least for me. As I mentioned before they did say the rewards would be paused. My question is, why do we feel entitled to the rewards from this pause phase?

And for the DAO it's obviously better to launch the rewards with wave 3 to boost the d1sk sales. It's the same with the IOU's, I bet everyone would like to have them before or with the wave launch but that would also dwarf the d1sk sales.

sour trellis
# dense locust I don't think this is what breaks trust, at least for me. As I mentioned before ...

I don't think this is what breaks trust, at least for me. As I mentioned before they did say the rewards would be paused. My question is, why do we feel entitled to the rewards from this pause phase?

I think I see your point of view here, but it is a grey area.
The only thing that was stated, was that rewards would be increased to make up for the pause, so tenchnically they can do this whenever they like and they have fulfilled their obligation.
The entitlement stems from people losing those rewards now after they have already paid to receive those benefits, only to be then told you must pay again to receive them.

And for the DAO it's obviously better to launch the rewards with wave 3 to boost the d1sk sales. It's the same with the IOU's, I bet everyone would like to have them before or with the wave launch but that would also dwarf the d1sk sales.

I agree with that. If everyone got dumped all of their disk rewards on launch, there would be a lot less motivation to buy.

dense locust
sour trellis
dense locust
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yeah I agree it is a very grey area. And once again all this stems from the lack of proper communication.

sour trellis
north trout
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This proposal has reached 25 upvotes!

As per @quiet light 's request, the proposal will be moving up the chain and soon onto Github. We will first discuss potential revisions according to feedback in the various channels. Then I'll go ahead and post it up on GitHub. After that, Rich will push it to Snapshot for ICC to vote and then finally the IMC will vote.

  • Finished - Discussions with the sponsor Spacelover: no changes to be made
  • Finished - Uploading the proposal to Github
  • Finished - uploading to snapshot
  • See future updates in #1024051771624136774
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@quiet light
I'll just do this publicly for a change so that people can look along with what happens. Governance IRL is so sly and sneaky sometimes right? Well what we do is very normal in comparison 👍

Is this the correct document, nothing weird changed as sponsor you should make sure? 🙂 Just a thumbs up (in #🎮〕illuvium-beyond), and I'll commit and get it ready for Rich to import to Snapshot.

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clear zinc
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I declined this proposal because rewards are not guaranteed to Beyond players. At any point, we reserve the right to pause rewards if they are not providing sufficient value to the ecosystem. For instance, in Season 3, we determined that the rewards weren't driving enough revenue, so we made the decision to pause them while we devised a better system.

I'm suggesting a similar course of action here. I will personally draft a new proposal that ensures Beyond players can earn rewards beyond the standard leaderboard payouts. I get the commitment Beyond players have made to the ecosystem and how helpful the safety pool has been. I'm not advocating for any action that would undermine Beyond players.

However, proposals like this one set a potentially harmful precedent. If approved, it could limit our flexibility in making decisions that best serve the long-term health of the ecosystem.

exotic marten
tacit walrus
exotic marten
# tacit walrus IMC is pretty much split with this proposal. Itll all boils down to <@3235569516...

I don't really know what was promised or not, more following Arena, Zero and overworld to be completely honest.
I just feel there shouldn't be rewards paid out if there is no game to be played, always felt weird watching that going on.

Like you don't do Arena leader board rewards when there is no arena playable, you also shouldn't do rewards in beyond when there is no disks to sell.
Especially in beyond, since leader board is only there to incentivize buying disks.

tacit walrus
quiet light
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I can only find this as officially communicated message about beyond rewards pause. It's up to team if that message was clear enough to community that it is fair to distribute with wave 3 while that message itself is talking about fair Distribution. I don't want to argue much here but wanted to put the official communicated message here :

Screenshot_20241002_052146_Discord.jpg
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I may have misunderstood the message or may have misunderstood the intention around the beyond rewards altogether but I notice that message was not clear enough for anyone around the pause and caused confusion in community

rancid rapids
# clear zinc I declined this proposal because rewards are not guaranteed to Beyond players. A...

I'm in a similar camp as Kieran on this but voted that this proposal needs revisions. I'm not hard opposed to some adjustment of rewards for Wave 2 but it was clearly communicated as a pause and not a delay.

However, any sort of retroactive adjustment to rewards MUST include incorporation of the content from IIP-46 where a sustainable structure is put in place for all future waves for me to support it. The council at the time favored that approach (separate Wave and Set rewards) but wanted it incorporated with Wave 3 structures. I still believe this is the right framework.

pliant mist
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The message is pretty clear to me:
pause to let people migrate, not pause to wait for wave 3

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and the compensation for the pause is clear to me too:
double the reward for the duration of the pause

vagrant sigil
# clear zinc I declined this proposal because rewards are not guaranteed to Beyond players. A...

This message is a great example of why I have never been able to invest in illuvium.

It’s impossible to trust what’s being said.

I have immense faith that the team is committed and you @clear zinc are doing what you believe to be the best for the project.

Just super frustrating to see that time and time again there’s examples showcasing that earlier commitments are only commitments as long as the IMC or you feel it’s worth it based on whatever data might be available on that day.

An utter lack of focus in building trust.

I will be here to play the games, and hope they’ll turn out great.

manic adder
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The poor communication has been the poor precedent. If the team fixes that, we shouldn't have such issues going forward. For most of the community, it's really not about the reward amount. It's just about trust.

clear zinc
# vagrant sigil This message is a great example of why I have never been able to invest in illuv...

I think that's a little extreme. My point was that Beyond rewards were never promised in perpetuity; that may end up being the case, but these are rewards in addition to you owning your cards, which is what you’re buying. This includes all rewards that are bonuses.

But as I said, we can 100% incorporate a bonus rewards structure starting in Wave 3 that will work for previous players and new ones, and I think that's more than justified.

I'll bring my proposal to the council tonight in the meeting.

cursive mauve
clear zinc
brave gull