Removing the auto-battler once we have OW Illuvial combat

[real wraith]

Kieran mentioned in the town hall that the team is still unsure about what they'll do with the auto-battler once we have Illuvial combat.

I’m creating this thread for the community to discuss what they think is best.

👍 Thumbs up if you want to remove the auto-battler from the Overworld.

👎 Thumbs down if you want to keep the auto-battler.

IMO we should consider removing it entirely from the OW, as the two game genres don’t complement each other and target very different types of players.

[coral atlas]

Once combat is ready there is no point for the autobattler to be in ow. As you said, 2 completely different genres.

[prisma ermine]

I think once alluvial combat is in one and one should be more live action based but as an example let’s say an alluvial runs into another alluvial that’s when it should prompt the auto battler which means a bunch of other eluvial get pulled into a fight

[real wraith]

why does illuvial combat has to be 1v1? if two illuvials run into each other then you would simply have to face both of them at the same time.

Me personally, I would prefer if the illuvial team size depended on the region's stage. So for stage 1's you could only bring 1 illuvial with you, for stage 2's you could bring 2, and for stage 3's you could use 3 illuvials.

I would also pair this with an increased illuvial density in the map if the player is playing with more players. Or introduce the ethereal illuvials concept into the OW.

[spare wigeon]

I think the overworld should have both!

I would design the system in a such a way that players sometimes enter into a portal for an strategic autobattle, but if they want to they could also try to force the capture through pure overworld combat alone.

I’d say you should be able to scan an illuvial for a short distance away (like 100-300m away. Then decide what you want to do.

I’d make our capture chances 10-20% lower on the illuvial in the overworld combat, with less capture chances, so if you really want to corner the illuvial and get more chances at capture, you choose to force it into a portal with autobattler combat to maximize capture attemps.

So basically, you’d force illuvials into portal autobattle on really high stat illuvials or on higher T4/T5 or with Stage 2/3 illuvials that are T0-T5.

Like if you were fighting it, if you keep shooting it to 100% portal energy it forces the illuvial into a autobattler. If you leave it at 99%, then you have a chance to capture it without doing autobattler at all, but less likely make the cap.

I would also hope for more complex illuvial combat with larger teams duking it out, like 4v4 in the overworld, so it blends some aspects of the strategic autobattler (like class and affinity bonus) in the overworld

Perhaps ethereal Illuvials would spawn to defend the active Illuvial, or all nearby illuvials would come to the illuvials aid to make it into a larger battle.

[real wraith]

I can see both battle modes being present but I really dislike the idea of battling in the OW and then having to battle once again in the auto-battler.

I do however see it possible to still have the auto-battler present in the OW through random NPCs that would challenge you to a duel.

[hollow wharf]

I also think it should eventually be removed. OW should be more of an exploratory experience running around the map to see what you find. Having to go into auto battler instances really slows down / interrupts that experience for me. I like auto battlers and Arena, but don't think it belongs in the Overworld long term.

[real wraith]

also, regarding the larger teams duking it out. I would hope this would be something that the multiplayer game mode promotes. Having bigger and more challenging battles with access to better loot.

[graceful quartz]

I agree with you that the target players are different, so having the two types of combat is something I prefer not to have... Maybe the team can find a solution for this, me as game designer myself, I can't see it, but maybe there is a way for the game designers working on it all the time right... but I'm in the group that want to keep the auto-battler, so on this I'll disagree with you and say "forget the PalWorld combat system" 🤣 ... but as I said, maybe there is a way for the two to be in the OW game mode, so I'd like to suggest that the team could prototype their idea and let us test it... instead of developing it to it's full form first, let's test their idea for it and maybe we can all be happy in the end

[hallow condor]

I am giving it a thumbs up I think we should have both options. Autobattler mode is already live.

Just have the action combat separate.

[real wraith]

Aaron has alluded to this in the past. Maybe we can keep the auto-battler as a legacy game mode. Although I'm not really a fan of this.

[real wraith]

I think we can do waaaay better than Palworld's combat tbh.

If you're a game designer and you can't see a good solution that implements both game modes. I think that should speak volumes.

Mixing a fast pace game with action combat with a slow pace, strategic game like the auto-battler is limiting us to a very niche target audience...

[median delta]

Overworld is no where near ready for this idea.

If players aren’t funnelled to our only functioning non-mobile game, OW by itself isn’t enough to keep them.

[graceful quartz]

well, I can't see... it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist... we are in a era where all "new" game mechanics are coming from mixing two or more mechanics and creating a new kind of experience, like for example what the game Shardbound is doing... so, maybe our team here could add or take elements from a third combat mechanic to "fix" the issues of mixing up the auto-battler and "the kind of a shooter" we're talking ... and having it all backed by the storyline could give it all a twist too...

[real wraith]

I did say once we have illuvial combat...

[median delta]

Once we have illuvial combat, and npcs, and quests, and at least limited multiplayer. Then we can talk about this.

[real wraith]

we're not even going to be a strict shooter like palword since we'll have tons of weapons to choose from.

[real wraith]

wrong. Now is the time to talk about this. Not after they make something that they don't even know what to make...

[median delta]

They are fully aware of what makes a good rpg platformer.

[vernal spire]

I voted remove

[real wraith]

oh so now we're a rpg platformer?

[vernal spire]

What's the guess on when combat will be added?

[graceful quartz]

here is just a matter of choice... at some point we need to accept that we won't have all the 3 bilion gamers in the world liking and playing what we build... and the niche of auto-battler is not that small to be a concern, also people will play something they don't like for another reason (like me tolerating and playing Zero to get fuel) ... the only thing I don't want to see in OW is we having one encounter with the auto-battler and the next one we having to shoot something... that's why my main vote goes to "prototype the idea"

[real wraith]

Kieran clearly said in the town hall they still don't know what to do with the auto-battler and illuvial combat.

[spare wigeon]

This is something that the community needs to give the team feedback on BEFORE they spend six months developing something when we could have given that feedback and avoided the mistake ahead of time…

I say keep the autobattler in some manner and allow capture through overworld combat as well. This allows both types of players to enjoy the gameplay they like most.

[dull drift]

They are different games.
Want combat? Go overworld
Want autobattler? Go arena
Everyone said that in tutorial jumping straight to autobattler makes no sense.
By trying to do too much you acomplish nothing
Why not make the kart racer an autobattler? Lets make zero an autobattler. Have it everywhere

Its not like the autobattler provides any depth or difficulty in ow
Its just disrupting and boring

[hard coral]

I definitely feel the auto-battler doesn't fit as a major part of OW. For now, since we don't have anything else, it's fine. It should definitely be taken out after we have a proper combat system though.

[dull drift]

The only way i see it working, is by finding npc's that challenge you to an arena style fight
But that's the most it can make any sense

[fervent plaza]

the fact that the team doesnt know how combat is going to be implemented is really concerning. How are you even developing a feature and you don't know where it fits? Illuvium need game designers ASAP

how are you guys even debating this with the little knowledge you have about combat?

[hard coral]

Didn't he say they already put something together really quickly 6 months ago?

[dull drift]

Also this should be in tutorial in sanctum mesa
This way you introduce new players to arena

[hard coral]

That's a much better way to incorporate the auto-battler

[dull drift]

Ofcourse
The npc says "hey wanna fight? Haha joking, i am talking about arena. Let me show you. Come after me"
And then it guides you on the ship where is the arena

[hard coral]

I also feel that since we just crashed onto this planet, we should literally be like, "these Illuvials have all these powers and combat abilities. What happens if we pit them against each other in a squared circle?"

From a lore perspective, aren't we basically just finding out about these creatures now?

[raw perch]

not sure about that.
If i remember right there was a battleboard on the ship we crashed onto the planet.

[mental mantle]

making OW and arena different genre will just make me quit for real, there will be no connection between both then,
and are we gonna make new OW arena for OW if it become different??
and how can Arena Stand Alone as a game? by design arena couldn't become stand alone game because it need iluvial u catch but if the game is different what's the point then?

also i'm not sure how illuvial combat like , if it similar to monster hunter or palword or somewhat action RPG , i will quit, it doesn't matter about fun/not, good game/not, it about preference in gaming, im more into strategy games.

if u catch something in action rpg why do u need to play arena autobattle if its different genre? it like trying another game after learning one game.

but at the end i will respect whatever the dev choice is.

[dull drift]

That is the whole point.
Make different genres of games for different type of gamers.
If you like arena so much, play only arena.
Its not like you find the thrill of the arena in battling one lesser air attipo

[ember granite]

i personally prefer not to play the auto battler in OW, they are two completely different genres. OW is fast-paced with fluid movements, while auto battler is more of a sit-down, think it over.

[hard coral]

What's wrong with just sticking to arena then?

[mental mantle]

arena need iluvial but how we get them it will only make arena f2p web2 if i cant catch them better i play other autobattler honestly.

[dull drift]

You can play ow for a few hours to get what you need, or buy them on marketplace

[mental mantle]

looking for best stats iluvial only from market is bad from me

[mental mantle]

its okay for now but if OW is different genre i wouldnt play them

[hard coral]

I thought the stats mattered more for Leviathan, not the other arena game modes... Am I mistaken?

[dull drift]

The whole ecosystem is centred on this.
I personally dont like city builders, so i dont play zero, i just buy the fuel
The same goes for every game that exists inside illuvium universe
Ultimately it will be hard to play every game in this universe. Play what you like and buy the rest

[median delta]

I hate to tell you this, but no OW isn’t an rpg yet.

Sorry to disappoint.

[median delta]

Im sure the game designers will be delighted to hear our suggestions for how they can not be terrible at their profession.

[mental mantle]

yes like u say but it differ for me, i like OW as of now i will play it for now but will stop playing it altogther if it not fun.

if ow change the feeling like playing pokemon and when i reach master arena it turn out into streetfighter

[hard coral]

I can't imagine it being that drastic of a change. We're already shooting at Illuvials in OW. The only difference would probably be that the Illuvials fight back instead of just running.

[dull drift]

I do hope it will be a drastic change
Now it doesn't work.

[hard coral]

How drastic?

[mental mantle]

Its big different if autobattler is removed

It like removing turn base strategy from a game making it into action game,

[dull drift]

Rpg-style drastic.
Suits showing up, choosing weapons, fights where you can die.

Right now health has no relevance.
But in combat, you want to be careful if you want to engage a fight without full hp

Give the bonus health from suits, if you die, you are booted out from the run

[ember granite]

👀

[hard coral]

I'm definitely more partial to this version... But I wonder if there can be a second way to farm for Illuvials where it's auto-battler focused to appease the strategy-based crowd... It definitely could be an option

For example, there could be a small fee to pay to an "Illuvial vendor" where you auto-battle your way through a few rounds to get an option to capture some of the Illuvials you fought

[real wraith]

you're aware they spend all that time making ascendant arena just to have it be revamped now right?

[twin fossil]

Agree, remove the Auto-battler.

Overworld needs a whole lot of UI work, action combat and capturing.

Ranger and Illuvials still feels too disconnected. Pokemon did this incredibly well, make the player pick favorite Illuvials and form a bond with them. (off-topic)

[real wraith]

they've said the bond would come from our drone and not the illuvials. I don't know how that's gonna happen. Even less now that we can change drones at will.

[twin fossil]

Yeah I completely disagree with that (if that's seriously the intended direction), the UI should encourage the player to select a 'favorite' of each of the Illuvials.

Make me addicted to leveling up MY best Holo Atlas to level cap, give me ways to enhance my Atlas (aesthetics), and give it temporary buffs in the open world.

Direction should be Destiny 2 style Co-Op Missions, Trials, Raids & Events.

Two seperate games in my view, if we keep the Auto-Battler in Overworld, I believe it will always be a massive detractor to Overworlds potential.

[cedar magnet]

i think autobattler needs to be removed and replaced with combat ASAP. I dont see why its such a delay to just replace the current system with combat? i think the team wants to introduce combat with a slew of new features maybe lore, but i think thats a mistake. just get it out now, take autobattler out, and add lore and missions and npcs and multiplayer as time goes on...kieran mentioned a new first player mode with combat, think this makes things MORE complicated and is a mistake. just implement it into overworld and keep building ontop of what we got, we dont need more game modes

[cedar magnet]

also multiplayer with combat would be sick. imagine hunting down a ramphyre and there are 30 other rangers in the world, and you are chasing and fighting a ramphyre and another ranger intercepts it by shooting and killing you and stealing the ramphyre from you.

i also think this can be done pretty easily, considering combat is already built

[spare wigeon]

Disagree. Autobattler is a fantastic game and at the very least deserves to be featured in optional mini games in the overworld. If you don’t like it, then don’t play it.

[carmine lake]

Like this idea. It gets kind of boring when you can add your whole team in for stage 1 fights

[cedar magnet]

"if you dont like it then dont play it"

sir this is a dao that is incentivized to get as many players as possible, what if most people besides you dont like it? lmao

[carmine lake]

I would 👎 this except for the fact that I would really enjoy watching streamers rage quit when they get their rare illuvials stolen

[carmine lake]

Like this idea where it's possible to have both versions in the game. But in the end I think combat will win support over autobattler if community voted

[twin fossil]

Sure I don’t mind the idea of the auto battler as an optional experience in the Overworld.

However do I think it should be the primary form of combat/capturing in the Overworld; no I don’t.

Given the base we’re working with, I think Overworld could be so much more if we allow it to be.

In fact, what about making the Auto Battler some form of roguelite inspired Game Mode in Overworld? 🤷‍♂️

Given the integration is there.

Survival for instance, player can defeat waves of enemies in the Auto Battler with an ever increasing chance to capture a rare Illuvial at the end

Defeat 15 waves, beaten on the 16th wave, player has a chance to capture a Tier 3 Holo X

[cedar magnet]

or potentially gym battles in the future with autobattler

although, i think gym battles would be better combat style

[spare wigeon]

I can agree with that as a potential implementation menthod, but it shouldn’t be removed entirely.

I think my greater concern is ensuring any revamps are fun and meld well with the existing economy.

A mini dungeon autobattler mode in overwolrd could work well where you have to survive waves of enemies with increasing difficulty. The longer you survive the more opportunities for reward you get.

[spare wigeon]

I agree about dying. I also think there should be a slight penalty for death, like -25 energy or something like that.

I would prefer Elden Ring style combat with big attacks where you dodge roll with invincible frames (I-Frames) to avoid damage at the last second. The Illuvials are your summons, and if they die, you can bring out more of them, up to 8 per combat. You can revive them with Ringnuts when they die too many times, just like it is currently.

[hollow wharf]

In the long term, the dev cost will be higher trying to keep support for both gameplay styles in OW. Balance changes will have to work for both modes, for example. I'm not saying Illuvium's top priority should be removing autobattler from Overworld ASAP, but it needs to happen eventually. Their top priority right now should be improving the autobattler, specifically in the Arena Gauntlet mode.

[spare wigeon]

The cost to balance an already existing and functioning game mode is very small compared to just trashing something the team spent millions to create. Just make it optional for people that like it or don't like it.

[vernal spire]

Separate game != trash, cut the hyperbole

[vernal quartz]

I would like to go into the OW with my Illuvials team and fight together in a mix of combat/auto battler. This is the best way to bond with my Illuvials.

The battle board would appear as usual, but my team would be auto positioned on the battle board for best strategy.

While I control the ranger in a FPS kind of experience, switch weapons and execute omega powers, my Illuvials fight in auto battler mode and I can watch them fight right next to me.

I would move my ranger to the Illuvials who need help the most and would really feel a part of the auto battler, not just watching it from above.

From a dev perspective most of the auto battler tech can be re-used, they would "just" have to add individual control of the ranger on the battle board. It would be an auto battler with manual control of the ranger.

A mix between action and strategy. It would also be easy to opt into the existing full auto battler fight for those who like Arena. Maybe even a new game mode for Arena itself ?

[hallow condor]

Creatures imo should have more than one ultimate ability gives a lot more variety and allows different use cases.

Was half the fun in Pokémon, you have different moves and certain you enjoyed more.

In action combat selecting moves would be cool also.

Thats more like a RPG, some sort of Illuvial and ranger skill tree system you level up and gives unique gaming experiences.

[real wraith]

If we could have a generic affinity ability, a generic class ability, plus the composite class and affinity abilities for higher stages and the omega ability that would mean higher stage illuvials could have up to 5 abilities for usage.

If we're controlling just one illuvial it should be doable, but if we have a team of 3 stage 3 illuvials it would mean 15 possible abilities to use. That's a lot, but at least it sounds fun and challenging 😅

Maybe if some abilities could be toggled to be used automatically by the illuvial whenever their cooldown is off could help alleviate getting overwhelmed by so many abilities.

[sullen flower]

Maybe its the way I grew up, but I would want to try the Combat/Autobattler hybrid before we make a decision.

When I was a kid, I would have my birthday money to buy 1 game for several months, then I might get another for Christmas or other holidays. I chose almost purely off the cover art on the case and because of this I ended up playing forced to try every genre over my childhood.

I love the idea of multigenre games even if they don't match speed. It is kind of refreshing, like having a fishing game in an action rpg.

It breaks up what could be a very mechanically repetitive game. and with us putting in 100's if not 1000s of hours, it can keep the game fresher longer.

With that being said if we can get data saying that it is heavliy impacting retention or has a high bounce rate, I would fully support removing the autobattler from the overworld

Also full disclosure, I am working on a game that has 5+ genres in one game trying to be the ultimate multi genre experience so I am incredibly biased.

[real wraith]

is that game in the illuvium universe?

[real wraith]

honestly I don't think the fishing example is a good one. As most of the players just do a bit of fishing and never touch it again. Only the few that enjoy it go and take some time to do it more than once.

I would also argue this. How much fun is actually the auto-battler? Is it that engaging to place the same exact team over and over again? And maybe put a consumable here and there?

[ember granite]

Final fantasy is famous for it's mini games, like chocobo racing, triple triad, blitzball.
TFT is LoL's mini game.
Even tho these mini games are popular, they are still mini games.
Final Fantasy is still a JRPG and LoL is still a moba.
What is OW?

[real wraith]

apparently OW is a rpg platformer without rpg
with an auto-battler mini game in it

[fervent plaza]

this 👆

[sullen flower]

No its not, personal project.

[steep whale]

I think you guys are missing the KEY point to keeping Autobattler in the OverWorld and thats Training and Education. On how Illvuials work Together. It Makes No Sense to Remove the AutoBattler. Creature combat should work up to opening the Portal and then after should remain the auotbattler to defeat and capture them. This helps people learn the strategies and synergies needed to support teh Arena Game. The feel needs to make it seem like one connect game not two speerate game.

I also think having the enemy creatures attack you and try to fight you would make the OW more existing than just running away. I think there are rooms for other maybe PVP battles that in OW that don't use autobattler but i would not support changes that Remove Autobattler from the current capture system

[sullen flower]

You still use the same team? I am fequently switching the team to level up the high stat illuvials making it fresh.

But you are right, we need to determine IF people find it fun. In the end that's all that matters.

[real wraith]

No I change the team according to the ones I want to level up. But once inside the region I just put them all if I'm in a stage 3 or have 2 teams if I'm doing stage 2's. IMO there's no fun to it. But maybe I'm already too veteran and I just find it trivial, others still might find it challenging and fun.

[real wraith]

we should have NPCs in Sanctum Mesa to train and educate. Let's not ruin a game for that purpose please.

Having to have 2 fights is an even worse idea IMO. You give it all to fight in the OW just to open a portal and have to fight again and this time a completely different game genre. Bad game design if you ask me.

[sullen flower]

Ya I mean I can say its not exactly exciting for me either anymore.

I'm sure any one who put a couple hundred hours in will agree.

I just wonder if you you put in the same number of hours in an action rpg doing the same combos would it feel the same? Like i think most people can put in about 200hr in Dragons Dogma2 before they start getting burnt out and that is debatably one of the best action games next to Elden ring(which we are not currently doing a souls like game in the overworld 😆 ). I can't imagine we will have an action combat system that will exceed that for some time.

That's why as of now I support having both modes

[real wraith]

well, I would say that's the beauty of this project, we have illuvial sets.

If I need to learn each illuvial's mechanics in order to beat them, and there were some random factors in the fight, then it would be a good challenge for quite some time.

Pair that with the fact that Illuvium will have different sets, when a new set comes with revamped illuvials and new illuvial lines it will make the game fresh with every new set that's released

not to mention that if we put multiplayer on top of that, with bigger fights and fighting against multiple illuvials simultaneously then we have a killer game on our hands.

[worldly crescent]

• OW Combat for battling illuvials to capture (remove auto battler).

• NPC's in OW [Sanctum Mesa] to fight an Arena style battle to gain experience.

I could also see a second type of NPC in regions where they challenge you to a combat style battle, so it's not for capturing, but you fight their ranger and illuvial (OW combat style) for exp and rewards. This may go nicely with some cinematic lore progression.

[cedar magnet]

this makes the most sense out of anything ive seen imo. maybe write a post for it alone

[green leaf]

i like this. keeping autobattler in overworld but in style of trainer battles

[mellow folio]

Let me try and come at this from a different angle, as someone in a creative industry I like to think outside of the box.

Now there is 1 major downside from removing the autobattler entirely. Right now the Overworld serves as a half decent onboarding tool into learning the autobattler, so that people better understand its mechanics and systems. Obviously we need to add better tutorials into the Arena but Pokemon really nailed it when your Starter starts off with 3 moves and at level 7/8 learns its 4th move of its elemental affinity. We need to encourage this sort of progressive gameplay, especially when it comes to the autobattler.

The other issue I see is that the autobattler brings a neat challenge. Overworld combat could eliminate difficulty, its more dodge roll and less brainpower.

All that being said the Overworld systems obviously need to be more fluid, no one is doubting that, beating a Rhamphyre in combat then entering an autobattler makes no sense, you already beat it.

I have 3 completely separate ideas for the integration.

1. Some Illuvials are aggressive and some are passive. Passive Illuvials (Ador) runs away and then you enter an autobattle, like currently. Aggressive Illuvials are purely battle and then capture directly in the Overworld (Palworld style).

2. Every Illuvial is combat then capture, but we also bring back the flying orbs, they give people the opportunity to get the dopamine rush of not knowing what Illuvial it is. They aren't too common, tend to have more rare Illuvials and involve the autobattler.

3. The entire thing is Overworld combat but in places like Sanctum Mesa / Regions you have Gym Battles / Trainer Battles for every game in the Illuvium ecosystem. 8 Gyms for Gauntlet, 8 Gyms for Ascendant, 8 Gyms for Overworld Combat, 8 Gyms for Battle Royale and so on. This further pushes the interoperable blockchain gaming ecosystem and grants cool achievements/cosmetics for those who want to get real deep.

[hollow wharf]

I'm really tending towards @worldly crescent 's idea for the goal state that capturing stuff does not ever involve autobattler, but there are NPC interactions where you face off and battle takes place in the autobattler style.

Chasing down passive Illuvials and then entering an autobattler, where you can only capture 3 of the Illuvials that you actually faced due to ethereals is just weird, and the more I play the less I like it.

[vernal quartz]

Why do we even separate combat from auto battler ? Why not have both in the same experience ? #1283781602505396427 message

[mellow folio]

An interesting idea. Now I am not convinced what you are describing still qualifies as an autobattler but this resembles what I would like overworld combat to actually look like.

In my ideal world when you engage with an Illuvial 5-6 ethereal Illuvials materialise out of thin air. You send out Ur team in some way and all out chaos erupts.

The only difference between that and your suggestion is you want to use the battle board. Id argue utilising the region environment is way more interesting and I'd like to maintain that.

[vernal quartz]

If they can pull it off in the region environment: Awesome. Maybe they can blend the battle board into the region. Make it appear from below or materialise. Somehow they need a flat area, but the hexes are not needed for such a style of combat/ auto battler mix. So in some sense the fight might happen on a battle board, but it does not have to look like it. It could be grass, sand or rock.

[real wraith]

why do you even need a battle board?

you're vision would be for the illuvials to automatically battle. Nothing to do there but controlling the ranger.

My vision is much more engaging. Having the illuvials attacking automatically, but also giving the ranger control over the abilities they use.
#1283781602505396427 message

[real wraith]

from those 3 I would go with 3. Gyms are a cool concept and players are familiar with that already.

Regarding your point that OW serves as an onboarding tool to learn the auto-battler. It is true, but I don't think we should be ruining the gameplay experience of a game for the sake of onboarding another game.

[real wraith]

that was actually my initial suggestion 😅
#1283781602505396427 message

optional duels that players would only engage with if they wanted. We can have different mini-games inside the OW through NPCs and the player can choose to engage with them if they want or not.

Something akin to what POE does with their endgame maps I think works really well. This way every new game Illuvium creates can eventually be integrated into the OW.

[vernal quartz]

You are right, a battle board is not needed. But a flat area is needed. If there is an intuitive way to control the abilities of my team while controling my ranger at the same time then why not ?

[real wraith]

I think just fighting on the map as it is should be fine. Why do you think it needs to be flat?

Yes! Let us keybind each illuvial's ability to 1-9 or shit+1-9. Now that would be fun and you would have real agency over what your illuvials do.

[vernal quartz]

If the Illuvials fight according to the auto battler rules, I would assume the area would at least have to be free of obstacles and somewhat flat.

[real wraith]

I don't think that's necessary. Ideally I would like to be able to select my illuvial's target, instead of them just mindlessly attacking the closest target.

[vernal quartz]

But how do you want to control a team of many Illuvials in a combat ? I could see the ranger and 1 or 2 Illuvials, but not 5 or more.

[real wraith]

yes that's why I said 1, 2 or 3. According to the stage.
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[vernal quartz]

Okay, but the your idea is just different from mine. I don‘t judge your idea, but mine is essentially the auto battler as is, with the ability to control your ranger

[real wraith]

I think having 5-8 illuvials with you is too much confusion.

and the combat will get boring pretty quickly since you only control your ranger's actions.

that would basically be a palworld copy but with more illuvials and more weapons.

[vernal quartz]

In my case it would be the experience of a first person shooter. Isn't that already enough control for one person ? In a coop scenario a second person could control another Illuvial or one person could conctrol the ranger + 1 Illuvial.

In regards to confusion. I am not a FPS player, but when I watch it on YouTube most of these fights are pretty fast and confusing, but somehow good (young) players are fine with it.

[real wraith]

but that's the thing. With the ranger getting weapons it's not going to be just a FPS. You'll be fighting with swords, bows, fist weapons etc...

[real wraith]

and no I don't think that's nearly enough control to just have a FPS and everything else is automated. Just play Palword for that.

[vernal quartz]

Ok, I don't know enough about this.

[real wraith]

Pokemon is great because you select your pokemon attacks. If we bring that to Illuvium, I'm telling you guys we're going to make a killer game.

[vernal quartz]

Yes, a possibility.

[real wraith]

and we don't need to create anything too complex. As I said just make a generic ability for the affinity and class, another for the composite affinity and composite class and for the omega. A max of 5 abilities per illuvial is more than enough.

[vernal quartz]

It would work especially well for mobile, but maybe for desktop and OW a FPS works better ?

[real wraith]

I don't see how controlling a max of 3 illuvials with the option to use up to 15 abilities would work especially well for mobile 😅

unless you have the option to automate those abilities, then sure I can see it working well on mobile. But then we go back again to the mindlessly dumb gameplay where illuvials do everything and you just shoot or wtv.

[vernal quartz]

Because it is a less confusing and less FPS kind of game play ? The way you described it, I would see the battle from above and control the movement of the Illuvials by switching between them and moving them. This would be different from my experience, where you would actually see the battle unfold around you while you move your ranger.

[real wraith]

nah that's not what I'm saying at all. You would still be in your ranger and the battle would be unfolding around you. You would simply have control over your illuvials abilities and determine who they attack. Ofc some automation can be introduced to this to ease the game experience for new players. But a seasoned player would want to control the majority of actions the illuvials do by themselves.

[mellow folio]

That's fair but I guess that's why gyms could work well. even if they block access to future zones etc

[cedar magnet]

yea but gyms would probably be better if they were combat style vs autobattler style. train in the wild combatting illuvials, and then combat vs npcs would be epic. autobattler is holding back mainstream, keep it as a gaming segment, but its crushing overworld, the niche crowd we have playing the game is biased. gauntlet and survival and ascendant all will remain and continually improve, but we need to turn overworld around and make it cohesive and ready for mainstream. reality is autobattler learning curve is massive and a tutorial isnt going to fix it.

[cedar magnet]

kieran mentioned in recent interview with steffanina that the overworld would be “hybrid” with both combat and autobattler. i think this is a huge mistake AND the fact that the community didnt make this decision and the team is making the decision on their own isnt righteous

gamers want a simple gameplay loop, illuvium choosing hybrid is another decision thats adding a layer of complexity to the game that mainstream gamers dont want

the game modes and structure is already incredibly complicated, this is just adding another level to that

[vernal quartz]

I don‘t understand, why they don‘t tell us about their plans before they start implementing.

[real wraith]

@tardy fable please take a look at this thread.

[twin fossil]

@ember granite do the needful

[ember granite]

i didnt know about that too

[dapper python]

not voting because I don't think my opinion is educated enough and don't want to skew the data, but I do think this is a really cool concept to separate them. My gut says if OW combat is good and compelling, ditching the autobattler, especially as currently designed, is the way to go. Think that helps separate out the game modes. I like Scoriox' thinking where he tries to find ways to keep the autobattler at least a tad bit connected in OW, just much more limited or in specific scenarios. Its a solid way to link the games together. Seems like there is a way to pull this off.

To me its all about if the combat is actually really detailed and fun over the long haul. If it is, then i would lean towards a 👍

[green leaf]

My thoughts:

I initially supported having an autobattler in the overworld for more skill expression, but now I’m against it. High skill expression ceiling belongs in the arena. Zero, the overworld, and the arena are different games with unique genres, and that variety is a strength. Having an autobattler in the overworld doesn’t make sense, as we already have a full autobattler game with the arena. It alienates non-autobattler players without attracting new ones, since autobattler fans already have the arena.

[dull drift]

Exactly! Thank you! I want my rpg! 😂

[real wraith]

I'm glad you came to this conclusion as well. I think that players like yourself that play OW on a daily bases are really important voices to be heard. We all want this game to kick ass.

[fervent plaza]

Why not hire game designers?
edit: For real

[safe bridge]

Agree we should get rid of autobattler as the main interaction in Overworld it's just not fun to stop the hunting flow, wait for the loading screen, battle, come back to Overworld...make it a side game like most of the open worlds - think about Witcher3 and the Gwent mini games, Spiderman saga with all the various mini games in the city, etc...

• Illuvial dressers in Sanctum Mesa and procedurally placed in regions : you battle them in autobattler style, you get interesting rewards

• Make a ligue of dressers like in Pokémon - survival style with in-game rewards/cosmetics

• Craft missions to incentivise finding and battling all dressers

• Create a feeling of progression with dressers that don't want to battle you until you won X battles, or you have a water only team, or X tier 5 imluvials...

• make a betting system in game to bet energy/fuel/ressource that you double if you win the autobattler

[vernal spire]

This 1000x

[real wraith]

I'm curious to know how do you guys envision illuvial combat. Let's share some ideas here!

[real wraith]

I know I'm not a game designer, but for those that know me you know I'm very passionate about Illuvium and I have considerable experience playing many different games, currently with over 1000 hours of game time in the OW.

Here's how I would like for illuvial combat to look like.

If we want to engage with an illuvial we would change to a combat stance by pressing the ALT hotkey for example. This would sheathe the gun and unsheathe our weapon and change the equipment (mag boots, jetpack and visor) abilities to the combat abilities. The space button could turn into a roll with a certain cooldown, the CTRL button could be used for quick dodge or for blocking, the SHIFT button would be for running and the Q could be used to scan the illuvial attributes.

The ranger's weapon could have a fast attack with left mouse click and a slow attack with right mouse click. The weapon's omega ability could be used with the letf+right mouse click.

Each region stage would have a limit to how many illuvials you could bring with you.

• stage 0 - 1 illuvial
• stage 1 - 1 illuvial
• stage 2- 2 illuvials
• stage 3 - 3 illuvials
  With this we would be able to target different skill level players by having an increased complexity and difficulty the higher the region stage is.

Each illuvial would have 3 abilities depending on their stage.

• Base affinity ability / Composite affinity ability
• Base class ability / Composite class ability
• Omega ability
  This would mean a maximum of 9 abilities for a stage 3 region. Players could key bind these abilities to the 1-9 hotkeys, or 1-6 with the omegas being assigned to the E, R, T hotkeys for example.

I would ideally like for the option to lock a target and be able to rotate between different adversaries through the TAB hotkey. And also have the option to select who my illuvials are focusing their attacks on, using for example F4 for all illuvials targeting the same adversary, F1, F2 and F3 to select each individual illuvial.

[dull drift]

I would like the suits to be visible in overworld. Like they look in arena. And get their stats in combat.
Also the weapons having a big impact. For exemple, use your illuvial to tank the enemy illuvial while you strike it with the bow from a distance, or you tank it with the magma shield while umbre materializes and strikes the enemy illuvial
Also would be great a leveling system for the ranger, to use faction skills

[hard coral]

I don't think we need to be game designers to contribute as we can copy many successful games and have half the work done for us. There's a reason why many successful games tend to follow a similar setup for core gameplay.

A lot of games nowadays tend to favor a 3 ability/1 ult/1 passive kind of setup because it's easier for people to grasp and keeps the skill floor a bit lower for ease of entry into playing. Also, it takes time to come up with unique abilities for every Illuvial so it would help pace development to something more manageable. In saying that, an alteration to your suggestion would be 1 active ability per Illuvial and just allow 3 different Illuvials to be taken on all runs. Either that, or just take 1 Illuvial with you and each Illuvial has 3 abilities and 1 ult (which I am more in favor of to keep hardware resource demands lower and sets a foundation for a MOBA). You can fit the omega ability in there somewhere much like how TFT champion abilities take from their MOBA counterpart (Garens "omega" ability is just his "e" skill for example).

Many successful MOBA games are like this such as Valorant, DOTA, LOL, or even for the action RPG genre of games like Diablo or Warframe, etc. All of these games I mentioned are popular, successful, and highly rated in web2.

Let's consider League of Legends as an example to copy into Illuvium. With Illuvials covering the 3 abilities and ult, suits could then augment your base stats, your weapon would be whatever you choose, while both could also contribute as active "summoners skill" ability or passive abilities. Aside from that, the combat engagement system you outlined should work fine IMO.

I honestly don't think skill and combat systems need to be complicated or reinvented. There are plenty of great systems out there from successful titles that we need to just take a hard look at and we can already see that so much of the work to be done is just figuring out how to implement those systems into OW.

[real wraith]

Yeah I agree, there's tons of good examples to take inspiration from there's no need to reinvent the wheel.

I like the 3 ability/1 ult/1 passive you mentioned from league of legends, but I also like the option to have 10+ abilities like in WoW, and both games are very successful.

I do get your point that it would take time to come up with unique abilities for every illuvial, but I think this should be done to lay a foundation for future games.
I also think we should go a step further and increase the number of illuvials a player can control according to the region's stage. This will greatly help catering players with different skill expressions and help create a real sense of progression.

After having thought a bit more about this, I believe it would be better if the abilities would come from the illuvial's stage and not their class/affinity like I mentioned before. We should leave those as they are for the illuvial's passive and create an ability specific to each illuvial stage.

We already have the ultimate (Omega) and the passives we just need to create an ability for each illuvial stage. The passives could work like in the arena but instead of needing 3/5/7/9 illuvials, the bonuses would be achieved with 1/2/3/4 illuvials, with the ranger counting as the 4th.

As for the abilities, if we assign just one ability to the lesser, greater, and exalted Illuvials (meaning all T0s and the T1 monkeys) and lynxes having the same ability for S2 and S3 only varying according to its affinity, we get the following number of abilities:

• T0 - 5
• T1 - 9x3 + 3 = 30
• T2 - 1 + 5 = 6
• T3 - 8x3 = 24
• T4 - 7x3 = 21
• T5 - 6x3 = 18
• Total = 104 abilities

Maybe the community could help with this. What do you think @tender ermine is it worth opening a thread like the airdrop missions thread to give the community a place to share some ideas? Maybe the team can take inspiration from these.

[fleet nimbus]

What if it's still strategy based? Like final fantasy or Dragon Age?

[fleet nimbus]

Could this be a different mode. I remember people discussing this previously, I like the idea of multiplayer and trial exct. Yet wouldn't want to participate in high risk combat very often.
So maybe a few different modes of areas where a 'player walks Into'?
For catching Illuvials I think turn based cinematic would be cool or something similar. Then everything else is an instance or hanging with friends while you battle and collect.

[hard coral]

My biggest concern is in seeing that the development team and leadership can agree with the underlying premise that these core systems from well-established games are similar for a reason and that Illuvium should draw from these already laid out foundations.

Whatever ends up getting implemented, I just want to see that they put the thought in and picked the design choices for the sake of good gameplay and user experience as the priority. So far, I'm not getting that feeling.

[silent trout]

My rationale for removing autobattler is that it breaks up the flow of the game a lot. The same as how it was with the old rocks. Waiting a couple of loading screens always gets me to alt and tab and go do something else. It breaks immersion and emphasizes the already bad performance.

P.S. while in overload your timer runs while the loading screen is up. So if you do a couple of fights you can say goodbye to like 30-40% of your time.

[real wraith]

so true... I hate seeing the counter go down while stuck on loading screens/animations...

[real wraith]

those strategy based games work well on a single player mode since they pause/slowdown the game for players to select the abilities, if we want to have multiplayer then this means there would be no monsters freezing while you select the abilities. Prolly the reason why FFXIV is much more like WoW.

[fleet nimbus]

Makes sense

[mental mantle]

well it probably good, but at the end when i think about is removing feature/core gameplay its very bad idea.

player is people who spend money for a game they like, changing that will feel like scamming people, i pay fuel for an auto battler if i already bought and then the game become something different/dont like i would feel scammed.

another issue is if we have New Overworld Combat , people then demand New kind of PvP, which in turn demand new Arena Combat, at that point i don't understand why we need arena auto battler?.

arena can't become stand alone because they need iluvial to play, so either buy second hand at marketplace or find in overworld. but if OW is very different i dont understand the motivation to play or collect illuvial for arena.

personally i would prefer 2 mode of Overworld which is OW autobattler or Ow Combat, rather than immediately removing autobattler from OW

[dull drift]

It is so fun to battle one attipo
So much thought and planing in ow autobattler
The loading screen takes more time than the battle itself

There is no valid reason to keep autobattler in overworld and can't convince me otherwise

[hard coral]

That's a great point and exactly why I would push for removing the auto-battler from OW in favor of an action based combat system. And if players want that extended to other games, then we SHOULD have a more interactive PvP and it SHOULD be demanded by players. If you ask me personally, we shouldn't have pushed so hard for an auto-battler PvP in the first place because of the smaller viewership size for games of this genre and especially with the level of revenue we were expecting just to break even.

Axie worked because it was extremely novel for crypto games at the time and there was still an element of playing your cards right with the hand you're dealt. At least there was an active role for the player and RNG for getting the right cards. But the only active player involvement in Arena is plopping things on the board and tagging consumables onto the Illuvials. After you hit "start", the combat is predetermined and all you're getting is a playback of the fight.

I really want this community to see it for what it is and take off their "I'm invested in this game" glasses and see this is just plain boring to watch, let alone play. According to statistics on peak viewership of competitive games, TFT this year still only amassed a peak viewership of around 150k whereas the most was from LoL at 2.8m. Geoguesser peak was just under 300k. Geoguesser doubles in peak viewership to TFT. Let that sink in for a moment. And of the games in the top of the competitive scene, the viewership goes to games that allow for high level skill expression via ACTION based gameplay (MOBA, Battle Royale, 5v5 deathmatch, fighting games, etc). I think the point is clear.

So if we can get some semblance of high level skill expression from an action-based combat system in OW, GREAT! Now we'll finally have some kind of proper foundation for PvP and the competitive scene just like this project was promising initially. And if you're invested, you'll want to see more action, too.

[dull drift]

Great insight

[mental mantle]

from what i see its about perspective of seeing what illuvium OW is? is it a game or gamified card opener?, anyway i think u want OW as a game its nothing wrong with that but for me is just gamified card opener, personally i want more simpler way of obtaining illuvial , thats why whatever iluvial combat is not necessary to be there. but debating on perspective is no end.

[dull drift]

Then make it just a simple card opener. This is not gamified. It is boring and takes too long

[hard coral]

I would correct that and say my perspective is one of an investor that wants to see this project get off the ground before we run out of seed money, and the most logical way to get there is to market Illuvium as a proper game in a genre that fits the price tag and development cost. We need to take our personal feeling about what we want and how we like this and that and look at this from a business perspective. What was proposed is just simple market analysis that gives great insight into what gamers want, with data and statistics to back it up. If you've invested money into this project expecting a return, it makes perfect sense to remove auto-battler in favor of combat for OW. This has nothing to do with preference and everything to do with seeing that this team starts developing the foundation for a product/service that can generate sustainable revenue in the gaming market and at the very least work towards slowijg the financial bleeding month-to-month.

[carmine lake]

What about having an option to either do autobattler, or battle the illuvial in combat?

So it's a choice, if you think you might lose in combat, then do autobattler and vice versa.

In the future, I'm envisioning a theatrical scene when you encounter an illuvial, time slows down, music changes, and then you see it appear (kind of how Umbre appears out of nowhere in the Illuvium trailer and blocks the trail)..

In that moment, you have an option to fight right there (combat) or enter the portal to have an autobattler match.

[hard coral]

I think that would be great for those who prefer auto-battling but I would keep it separate from Illuvium combat regardless. I think it's already been mentioned in this thread to keep auto-battler to farm Illuvials but only via NPC battles. That makes the most sense to me if we're trying to keep both.

[real wraith]

last time I checked the automated drone runs are coming for folks like you that just want a card opening experience.

I think it's time we commit to a specific game style and stop trying to please both audiences with a system where we have 2 completely different game genres for the same game. The auto-battler can still exist as a puzzle mini-game via an NPC. The same way that if we get a kart racing game it would also be incorporated to the OW via this way, random NPCs with different missions from all the other games is the way to go.

But it's time we start making OW a really kick ass game with live action combat. The fact that Kieran said in his latest interview that they're working on a hybrid system is fucking worrisome to me and it really frustrates me how the team keeps working on things without showing a single thing of what the vision is.

Sam said it best on the latest download episode. We need to start having some roadmaps and more transparency.

[hard coral]

Completely agree. Trying to please everyone ends up pleasing no one. I also feel that frustration and it really makes me wonder if the team actually has enough gaming experience to make good decisions for the direction of the games they make. Some of these issues that keep coming up just feel too obvious to have made it through to open beta.

Yes, please commit to live action gameplay, with active player involvement in combat. If you want strategy puzzle games, make that a side game. Stop wasting more time playing around with "what if we..." Just stick to what has worked in the gaming industry and stop trying to be experimental with game design until we have solid ground to stand on and are no longer hemmoraging money.

[mental mantle]

Well tell the team, im not the one that create the game anyway , boring itself is subjective. And u dont need to agree to how i see ow and i dont need to agree for what u think about ow.

[mental mantle]

Im aware of that, but it still uncertain how its work, also one reason why im ok with ow as of now is because the feeling is similar to playing pokemon, u encounter monster enter battle fight capture and repeat.
Maybe other dont like this kind of battle but it not really a reason to abandon already completed game.

[real wraith]

I don't feel we're abandoning it. The team clearly stated in the past the intention was to go for illuvial combat. The auto-battler was just a placeholder until the combat was done.

[mental mantle]

well it just tell the team not ready to create a game, if they really want to make iluvial combat just release that game dont just make it an autobattler and then remove it, i would not complain if they just make an iluvial combat to begin with.

its not wrong to say i buy A game but it turn out to be B game, people who buy it will get scammed.

[hard coral]

I understand it doesn't feel good to be promised one thing but delivered another. By principle, we should get what was promised.

But I want you to consider this. Between two scenarios where:

a) we start with one direction for the game, realize it's not going to cut it for the goals we are setting out to accomplish, change directions that alters certain fundamentals of gameplay and breaks initial expectations in order to meet those goals, some people feel hurt because they were given product B instead of product A or

b) we start with one direction for the game, realize it's not going to cut it for the goals we are setting out to accomplish, don't adapt because we made a promise and don't want to break people's expectations, save people's feelings and release product A as planned,

I will opt for a) every time.

For comparison, there is another web3 game I've been playing and following for a while which is Guild of Guardians (GoG). They fully released the game around the same time as Illuvium Open Beta. During GoG beta phase, the game was meant to be a dungeon crawler action RPG like Diablo. On release, they became a 5v5 auto-battler. That is a major genre change but arguably done for the better. The closest comparison to GoG's full release in web2 would be to AFK Arena (a relatively successful title in mobile gaming). Again, they didn't try to reinvent the wheel; they just took what worked and added a blockchain element to it. Was it the game I was hoping for? No, I wanted a dungeon crawler. But I've seen the recipe before in AFK Arena and I know it works. From this point forward, they now have a working foundation to build off of and can easily take inspiration from other games in the genre and start to get creative. The situation for Illuvium is no different.

If you want the best for Illuvium, save your feelings from blinding your judgement. It hurts to get your expectations pulled from under your feet, but this is just how it is and what it needs to be.

[hollow wharf]

I think that once the OW combat system is in place, most existing players will agree it is better, and virtually no new player will think that it should be exactly how it is now instead.

[mental mantle]

your judgement is based on investor but im a gamer i play whatever is fun for me and leave if its not fun.

[hard coral]

Gamer or investor, it doesn't matter. If change needs to happen, then it should happen. If all you care about is whatever is fun to you without any regard for the financial sustainability for the project, there won't be a game for you to even play.

[mental mantle]

there is a lot of game out there anyway and making different game and maintaining the old one is not like make the illuvium fail it will make ecosytem more richer, in a sense is similar because if we turn into iluvial combat what is different than creating new one? at that point it also need New/another Beta test, even if the team decide to really remove auto battler how long do u think it need to take? and in the meantime we forced to play a game that soon to be abandoned?

[fleet nimbus]

I understand this sentiment, however as I understand it from the beginning, the autobattler was always a place Holder, and people who liked OW year ago were told Arena was the priority and different elements would be within OW or a different game like Arena. OW is huge and deserves to be populated with something. Its also quite possible a lot will change over time, as some things may be set, yet can also evolve.

[real wraith]

I guess this is what happens when you try to create 3 games (plus Beyond) simultaneously.

[hard coral]

Many games have gone through major revamps over their life and have come out better and stronger because of it. One of the biggest memories I've had of this was when Warframe went from being only a kinda meh, better than nothing space ninja procedurally generated fps dungeon crawler to an open world action RPG with a reworked story and really great features added to tie in to the lore that completely changed the game to a certified AAA banger. They still kept the dungeon crawler stages but managed to make good use of them anyways. And since then, it's been nothing but consistently great content, consistently high revenue, and a very loyal player base. They're definitely one of the best examples of a completely f2p game that just knocks it out of the park.

I've never been on the investor-side and early in a games development like I am with Illuvium so it's a very new experience to have such a close eye on it as the game develops. Suffice it to say, I am constantly looking for signs that Illuvium is on the right track and does not end up in development hell; Illuvial combat/removing auto-battler for creature capture in OW is for sure one of those signs.

[real wraith]

Thank you for your insights @hard coral

Contrary to all the other web2 game studios, Illuvium is not only a game studio but a DAO. There's many bright minds in the team but there's also many other in the community. IMO we should be trying to leverage that more... The fact that we're a DAO should be one of our strongest suits, not an hindrance.

[hard coral]

I think the part where this game studio × DAO setup struggles is in having too many influences on the final decision of what gets implemented to the game. It can slow down progress on development immensely as features that should be implemented into the game get vetoed due to lack of support or because everyone wants different things. That's why I think it's more important to have the right creative lead hired for the project and just let them cook.

As mentioned before, an arena auto-battler game just doesn't have a big enough draw in the gaming community to see a sizable ROI as our flagship product. We really should have dedicated our development to action-based combat as early as possible with an open world FPS action RPG like OW being the flagship, and an fps action-based PvP as our competitive/tournament sell. Basically, what you're asking for in this thread should have been part of the initial design.

[fleet nimbus]

I agree here regarding the DAO, we dont make the game or spend and energy on the creation of it. I feel if it was more aligned with informing about decisions and taking feedback, is better than voting and iips/ect because there are too many cooks in the kitchen with to many competing demands. I also think not enough people ae engaged with voting or understanding what they are voting on, I have seen people of influence steer the ship a direction it wasn't ready for. I think your right regarding the RPG, the voices against the OW were too strong. Even now woth the auto battller, it has a totally serperate game mode so im not sure why people are so against it being removed, the tie in for me has always been the illuvials, i loved getting them then seeing them be played in arena. To me it feels tedious to have the Auto battler in OW and a totally separate game. I feel we are lacking the feeling of an experience, narrative and purpose, these are coming so I'm holding. Maybe if things went the opposite way, like start simple then add complexity, instead of the other way around.

[hard coral]

Very much this. Starting simple, then adding complexity as time goes on while keeping players informed and welcoming feedback/comments has been a gold standard for game development, especially for live service games like Illuvium. The DAO could easily have stepped aside and just let the developers and creative team do their thing and it would have been fine.

I think another critical blow to our development has been in focusing too much on building the crypto NFT economy before building the game. I see it as the main reason why we have so many issues in the first place. Had we simplified it by focusing on game development and then figuring out the best way to implement the NFT aspects secondary to that, we wouldn't have so many delays.

I also think the reason why the NFT economy was focused on as a priority is simply due to short-sighted greed. I believe those who steered development into this direction were blinded by how wonderful it would be to possess extremely high value Illuvials they could hope would appreciate and cash out on. If you notice the kind of people pushing back against improving f2p and overall gameplay experience are usually those who tout that it would deteriorate the monetary value of their precious Illuvials if we opened the game up to a broader range of players. This is where we're going wrong.

Some of the best, most stable and responsive to supply/demand forces in an in-game economy I've seen are completely f2p. Though the values of their assets aren't skyrocketed to the thousands+, they usually hover within a respectable range of a quarter of a dollar to around 50 to a hundred+ at the extremes and have maintained this for at least a decade. And the great thing is, f2p players can still make some money farming these assets and it doesn't, I repeat, doesn't kill the economy. We would be wise to study how they manage this and learn from it instead of whatever it is we're doing now.

[real wraith]

I dunno if that's so straightforward like you're saying. Regarding the F2P making money, the only way that's feasible is if we we're able to eliminate all bots, otherwise the bots will definitely ruin the economy.

[real wraith]

• "TFT this year still only amassed a peak viewership of around 150k whereas the most was from LoL at 2.8m."
  This is something that worries me. We're trying to push the arena to ESports. But I really don't know if there is an audience for this type of game. Maybe China, dunno... If I wasn't so into Illuvium I wouldn't be watching an auto-battler on my free time for sure.

[hard coral]

True, bots are an issue. I haven't looked very deep into how this is handled in other games, but at least it appears like it's handled in some way. Otherwise, how could those games still be completely f2p and maintain a healthy asset trading economy?

[real wraith]

are these games you're talking about web3?

[hard coral]

No, but I can't see how it would be much different as the assets are traded for in-game currency tied to USD. Our fuel is essentially that in-game currency and instead of trading via an in-game market, it's on blockchain

And it's not like there aren't already marketplaces that trade accounts/assets via USD that don't already exist. Maybe I'm missing something here

[real wraith]

The problems is bots. They inflate the supply like hell and only extract from the ecosystem devaluing the assets to the ground and therefore ruining the economy. What you're saying only works on games that are basically played by humans.

You can argue that WoW has bots and has a thriving economy. But every player knows that they ruin the economy, by lowering prices to the point a normal player has a hard time being profitable.

And contrary to web2 where you don't care about assets supply and you can print them infinitely, in web3 that's not the case.

[coral atlas]

The answer is very simple and not sure why it wasn't the go to thing we did. To counter bots, valuable assets can be obtained through high difficulty gameplay that the bots can't do or it will be easy to detect them if they tried.

Opens the game for so many features, the current model is the opposite, feels it limits alot of cool stuff we can do.

[dull drift]

Nothing that is automated is not either fun to play or fun to watch. You just place units and watch a movie.
Everyone pushes gauntlet so far because overworld is worse. If we had an immersive and challenging gameplay in overworld that gives illuvials value, everyone would want ow to be the main focus.

[hard coral]

I think there's something to it here. Off the top of my head, there will never be a 100% way to eliminate bots. The best strategy is to factor them into the equation and limit their influence. This could definitely be one of those ways

It's kinda like when you have too many rules and regulations, things become stifled and boring. Same goes for when we try to keep bots out 100%. Our walls end up being our prison

[coral atlas]

I mean I didn't discover the hot water here, it's what some other games do to battle the bots. Make the content hard enough so most can't do it, and the ones that manage to do perfect plays, expose themselves by looking robotic. Dunno how to apply something like that at this point, maybe through ow combat 🤷‍♂️

[hard coral]

Most of the ideas I get come from previous gaming experience too 😄. It's still valuable enough to bring it up and have it be on the radar. I think generally ideas like this compounded with other game designs will naturally reduce the effect of bots on the economy significantly

It's a multifactor approach, and imo the best way to tackle it. It allows the game to open up and reduces the overall effect bots have. Like I said, we build our own prisons trying to keep the walls up

[raw perch]

Yes, make farming assets challenging and set the skill bar right at my Level, so everyone with a lower skill can't Farm them anymore and has to buy it either from me or higher skilled Players.

[real wraith]

that's why having 3 stages of OW is a good thing. We can make a game with 3 different difficulties to cater to different levels of player skill.

the current OW with the auto-battler requires ZERO skill

the only thing players need to know to beat a region is be familiar with the hyper chart and it's ez game

and this mostly stems from the fact that they cheesed the game cause initially it was just supposed to be just a gamified pack opener. And we can't make that too hard cause ppl are paying for it right? You die and nothing bad happens, just come and get what's yours cause you payed for it.

Games are meant to be FUN! And fun comes from challenges and being in the state of flow. Maybe we need to hire some children to show the team what fun means.

[raw perch]

Yea. Talking about Stage 3.
Just wana Farm the valuable assets anyways.
Like it if others Farm the low Tier assets i can buy with a Part of my Profits i Make with selling high Tier Stuff.

[real wraith]

you can get valuable assets on lower stages as well. Just at a lower rate.
And IF you're able to farm stage 3's why shouldn't you be rewarded by it? The problem now is that everyone can do stage 3's since there's no challenge to it it doesn't require any skill besides a bit of knowledge from the hyper system.

[dull drift]

The only skill required is how many illuvials should i put to have this many tries on capturing. It's like a math game. It's not even about losing anymore. I have 50+ lvl illuvials with t3 consumables.

[raw perch]

Yep, seems we are on the same page 👍

[raw perch]

Imagine where illuvium could be if they never heared voices trying to alter a pack opening into a WOW, and instead let devs focus on other things.
Arena could have been ready to Start with a competitive scene at launch, Story Mode which could slowly be altered into a dungeon crawler would have been ready at Launch. We could already actually be in the design phase for the next demand game instead of dreaming it might happen next year.

Is it good that people already have Max Level illuvials? No there shouldn't actually be a Max Level and the experience gained was just overshot as many other things.
Should there be at least a bit more Training (skills illuvials etc) needed to Beat a Stage 3? Absolutely, but don't Limit stages to parts of your player Base. (And keep in mind, we talking about pve, skill is mostly based on time comitment, and game getting boring-grindy is just a matter of time)

In a universe of 10 demand Games, Like rpg dungeon crawler, Battle royal, kart racer, moba etc. Should we "waste" so mich time and developement to Make the pack opening experience a bit more enjoyable for a likely short amount of time?

[real wraith]

I liked you more before you were a mod. Too much kiss ass now.

[obtuse pier]

YES! It’s to slow for me, it would be nice if we didn’t have the load screens come up and down before and after every battle.

For me I like more actions games then strategy.

Games I’m playing right now out side of Illuvium:
-ff16 amazing combat
-cyber punk the anime brought be back, but thier updates made a whole new game
-next devil may cry 5, a coworker begged me to get it lol. It was 10$ lol

That said, I voted thumbs up to remove auto battler from OW. Keep it in arena where ppl bet/gamble. To me that’s where you want strategy, where OW the non auto battle can be won by computer performance alone, instead of skill.

[hard coral]

I think the problem is we really have no idea what the plan was going to be had we all said nothing about OW. Was there supposed to be another Illuvium title that covers open world RPG gameplay? I didn't hear any solid plans for it. Nor did I hear any solid plan for story mode dungeon crawlers or what-not. If there were, I would have felt I didn't need to say so much about OW being severely lacking.

The thing with OW being touted as a standalone game JUST for pack opening says a lot already. I have never heard of a genre of gaming called "pack opener". I doubt anyone in the gaming community has until web3 came along. The reason why we don't see genres of games called "pack opener" is because that mechanic of praying to RNGesus is usually built into the game itself. If all we were aiming for was a pack opener, just gachify it and forget the OW. Then we have plenty of resources to focus on the arena competitive scene and whatever other game you want to make.

It just makes no sense to even have OW if there was no plan to expand on it. Let's just say it becomes an open world RPG style game like you laid out. Yes, eventually you'll reach the end game and after you've beaten it and have nothing left to do, you'll wait for the next content patch and start all over again. What's wrong with that? It's the nature of a live service game and that's just how it works. Player counts wax and wane with content drops and the more you can keep them engaged, the better.

The other thing is if they said "we want to focus on a MOBA or TDM with Illuvials," I would 100% be on board with that instead of insisting on OW improvements. But for some reason we have our eyes dead set on Arena auto-battler as our big entry into eSports... What? It's pretty clear that until we said anything about OW, they really had no solid plans outside of making a flagship debut with Arena. So if this is what we're working with, I'd rather we get Illuvial combat going and get a proper foundation for PvP.

[real wraith]

and just so you don't think I'm simply making an ad hominem argument, I'll remind you that the team spent the majority of their time developing the ascendant arena mode just to end up realizing after getting the community's feedback that the game wasn't good and now they're revamping it.

We haven't been able to make a single good game, and here you are talking about demand for 10 games... I think it's time we get real.

The illuvials are freakin amazing and the OW regions are so damn beautiful. But this doesn't make a good game. Maybe we should have launched 2 years ago with the empty OW and just the orb wakes floating around. Then we could say the OW is just a pretty pack opening experience. Just don't call it a game.

[dull drift]

Great arguments @hard coral and @real wraith
Nothing else to add!
👍

[raw perch]

even tho i probably shouldn't as a mod, i just said team is wasting time with what they focused last months and what they are still focusing in developement is to a big part a waste of time.
don't think that's kissing ass behaviour.

[raw perch]

that's why i would love to see more aaron townhalls, he can bring the dream really close to people when talking about the vision.

The illuvium universe it self is basically the rpg, including all the titels already existing and coming in future.
What next games will be, nobody knows. To determine that there was a plan to start a design phase this quater according to the latest roadmap.
It is whatever the community want's it to be and is feasible and reasonable to start developing next, this includes possible dungeon crawler happening in the OW.
The Overworld is a beautiful place, still being built out and i also agree it would be a waste if it's just for pack opening experience. But it's not... there were already talkes about altering Sanctum Mesa into a multiplayer hub, also working as a first testing fields for possible future multiplayer experiences. There are also raids on the vision map, which i guess will also take place in the overworld.
You can have competitive challenging gameplay in the overworld, but i fail to see why the pack opening experience should be one.

btw, if you missed aaron townhalls @hard coral , i recommend watching those. Even tho they might be old, they still hold good value. 🙂

[raw perch]

10 demand games... not demand for 10 games

looking at this and also see the progress in the different game modes we have now, you wana say they only focused on arena?

[real wraith]

bro please don't straw man my arguments. I never said they only focused on arena. I said and I quote 'the team spent the majority of their time developing the ascendant arena mode'. The mode that now is getting completely revamped.

[raw perch]

what i meant actually. Sorry, start now quoting people when talking about their posts to avoid misunderstandings.

[hard coral]

Yes, I've seen this graphic floating around which is why I'm still holding. Googling for the posting date, I see now that this was posted pre-open beta launch so the plans were already in place. Awesome 👍