#Remove Stages in Overworld

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

zinc venture
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I've been playing Overworld for a while now, and honestly, I know this is going to be a super unpopular opinion that will probably get a lot of heat, be called stupid, and won’t happen anyway... but I still wanted to start the conversation.

I would toss the four different stages and paying for travel out the window.

It’s weird, confusing, hard to explain to people, and just plain annoying—among other things.

Instead, I would implement single Region's with a level system where the higher the average level of your Illuvial team, the higher the chances of encountering stronger (higher level) Illuvials.

**THEN **to encounter higher Tier Illuvials, you would need a "Beacon" of the corresponding tier:

  • A Tier 1 Beacon would attract mainly T1 Illuvials, with a small chance of attracting higher-tier Illuvials.
  • A Tier 2 Beacon would primarily attract T2 Illuvials, with a slightly higher chance of attracting even higher-tier Illuvials.
  • And so on.

You could unlock these beacons by leveling up, crafting, purchasing from other players, or buying directly from the DAO.

For extracting rocks and plants, you would also need specific tools similar to the beacon. A **GeoExtractor **for rocks and a Botanical Harvester for plants could work well. These tools would not only be necessary for extraction but would also affect the chances of pulling out higher-tier resources. Higher-tier extractors would give you a better chance of extracting high-tier resources from the plants or rocks.

Meaning a player with the better equipment can pull better stuff out of the same Rock than a player without good equipment.

After finishing a run and wanting to leave the Region, Mozart would ask you to supply fuel to transport your collected items.

**Rocks **would require Solon.
**Plants **would require Hyperion.
**Illuvials **would require **Crypton **to extract.

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The higher the tier of Illuvials or resources, the more fuel (and potentially better tools) you would need.

This opens up the possibility to mix runs. If you have a lot of Solon left and a little bit of Crypton you could equip a high-tier "GeoExtractor" to mine high-tier Rocks and a low Tier0 or Tier1 Beacon to catch weaker Illuvials.

It also opens up all regions and all Tier Illuvials to everyone, including F2P players in a simpler way...the only thing they need is a high-tier Beacon which they can grind for. However, because they need to pay for extraction it won't dilute the supply.

Of course there needs to be a CreditCard solution in place to pay for extraction if you don't have enough fuel in the bank.

Basically the current model is you before you know what you get (like opening a pack of cards which was the intend) and with my proposed way you pay when you extract making it more of an extraction shooter and giving player a little bit more control of what they get.

**OBVIOUSLY **I didn't put weeks of thoughts into this. It's just an idea to replace the current stage run system for something simpler...that's all.

dry valve
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This seems like a way more immersive way to add a "paywall".

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Curious to hear @tiny plume thoughts on it

red river
tiny plume
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Of all the issues to fix, I wouldn’t have guessed this was a problem.

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Ah shit I just edited my post and removed what I previously said.

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The above is answer to “wen lore”

lavish nova
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Honestly this idea more confusing for me, its more simple as of now, u just need to enter area with price and get energy for the run.

dry valve
tiny plume
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What I said before deleting it was that I don’t think this is simpler.

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Not saying that the current system can’t be improved though.

zinc venture
# tiny plume Of all the issues to fix, I wouldn’t have guessed this was a problem.

It wasn’t a problem during the beta with free daily fuel, but now in mainnet, I’m really feeling the friction and unnecessary complexity. This is evident from the confused looks and question marks I see when I try to explain it to people (Web2 or Web3) for the first time.

Anyway, just wanted to share my feedback. Thanks for reading.

#IlluviumRocks 🤘😄

lavish nova
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After i read it again i think this idea change from u paying fuel upfront into paying fuel after picking stuff. That would be another problem,

dry valve
tiny plume
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I mean, what is hard to explain about “higher stage, better odds”?

Compared to this system where you have to get all sorts of new features. This seems a LOT more complex.

Is the real issue here: I don’t want to always have to pay to play the game?

tiny plume
dry valve
zinc venture
tiny plume
tiny plume
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The dev blog is nearly finished and goes into some of these issues of being in beta, where without all the features some things don’t feel as good. But I’ll leave that for now and you can read it when it’s out.

dry valve
zinc venture
zinc venture
lavish nova
tiny plume
# zinc venture Well, I see it more like going shopping and paying at the checkout. Instead of p...

Well we know that paying for packs before you go in works, because the randomness is part of the fun and excitement. Paying for what is supposed to be random stuff after you find it, I would argue would completely destroy the game. No longer would anything be rare.

My guess is that the root issue here is simply not wanting to be forced to pay to do stuff in the game. I could be wrong but I think that seems like where this might be coming from. The confusion is not 'high stage better odds', because honestly a 2 year old can understand that.

But 'why do I have to pay each time' is hard to understand when you don't look at it like buying cards. Even with a subscription you just pay once a month.

But we are working on this. We have features coming that will be fun ways to play the game that don't cost anything. Gauntlet is one of them, but I'm talking about in Overworld and also Zero.

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I think if people can do lots of things, and then every once in a while say 'hmm, i need more stuff to beat this, I'll go do a run or visit the marketplace' is a better feel, and it's my fault for not seeing that earlier.

crisp otter
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Love this idea bro 🔥🔥🔥

carmine wraith
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bump

this idea should be re investigated imo... current overworld system is sooooo cooked, no one likes paying to travel, and no one ever will. saying we need more game modes to fix this so that illuvials have more utility is masking the problem. its making the system more complicated with remaining non fun parts. make illuvium like pokemon as it intended to be at first, with one mode, and trickle in costs to expedite the grind throughout. community needs to come up with some anti cheat ideas, and then this is a full send. also think that the conversion to this system should happen after we integrate combat and after arena gets all its upgrades, so that the system has a bit better flow in the interim. but in a year or so , once more lore and npcs are created, one map, with one mode, with no travel cost is essential to illuviums success.

solar berry
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Hands down the best explanation of removing the different regions.
I'm actually leaning towards this.
I think I would make it a lot more immersive along will the possibility of filling up the OW a little more.
How do you see the resources working on this system?

hushed wraith
# tiny plume Well we know that paying for packs before you go in works, because the randomnes...

A monthly subscription is a lot easier to digest and is more familiar to gamers. I can't think of any other game where you have to pay per instance/dungeon run, Kieran said it well in an AMA, it's a constant money grabbing jab that doesn't feel good. It's not an issue of not wanting to pay for things, but the current system is overly complicated with 3 fuels for different tasks and constantly having to pay money every time you want to travel or fuse or craft usable shards.

There's also zero explanation in the OW when choosing the stages, I had to go to discord to figure out what each stage meant because it doesn't mention higher odds or only certain tiers or illuvial stages being found in certain region stages. Having a f2p stage and a paid stage would make this easier to understand. I'm not sure the higher odds play is the way to go.

Adding more f2p features in OW is fantastic but it still won't solve this issue. Arena stopped attempting to be chess in the name of fun, I think that same mentality needs to be taken when looking at the econ mechanics of the game.

split ledge
tiny plume
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The problem with those models is they are not one-to-one.

Farmers become commonplace when you allow someone to repeat something for free (a battle pass and a subscription do this too, roughly).

The reason we are solid is because you pay for a pack of cards and get it.

I totally understand why people don’t like paying to play (in the way we have it) and we are going to address that. But I’m not sure a subscription fixes this.

However it could take some large scale changes to feel good. Before we do anything we will consult with the community but we are well aware of the limitations.

hushed wraith
viscid karma
tiny plume
viscid karma
# tiny plume Not the team, just me. I try not to speak for the team where possible. My issu...

The battle pass doesn't need to have illuvials in it. You usually get different quality of skins (maybe battleboard skins or other cosmetics in our case?), emotes, some type of currency, consumables, sprays, profile icons, titles, among other stuff like that. And it has certain amount of levels, which you reach by playing the game. And different rewards are unlocked as you level up.

Basically you pre pay for different limited rewards which you earn by playing the game. We can include so many cool stuff in it, I think it would be a shame not to explore this option.

tiny plume
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Oh that’s in line with my thinking but doesn’t solve the issue of paying each time to get illuvials.

hushed wraith
# tiny plume Not the team, just me. I try not to speak for the team where possible. My issu...

There could be a maximum limit and have a basic and gold tier battle pass at different prices. Example would be:

  • The basic tier battle pass including 15 Stage 1 runs, 2 stage 2 runs, and 1 stage 3 run in a 30 or 60 day period.
  • While the battle pass is active, if you capture 5 tier 2 or higher illuvials, you get an exclusive cosmetic or bonus gems or shards.
  • Maybe the battle pass can include features like 5% off additional fuel costs while it's active. I don't think arbitrage would be an issue because a % of fuel sales goes to land holders/IMX/DAO right?

I do see how this could feel too similar to paying fuel each run, you're just draining a battle pass each time. I think you and the team could think of something better for sure, this is just a piss poor starting point.

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Maybe the best solution has nothing to do with subscriptions or battle passes, idk

gentle oriole
hushed wraith
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I'm starting to think it's just a matter of presentation/education. Education regarding the "pack of cards RNG" aspect of it. I think why it feels like a frequent micro jab as opposed to opening a pack of cards is because the Overworld is an awesome experience, to a point where many are considering it the flagship game over Arena. The pain is not from paying to get RNG illuvials, the pain is in paying to enter the region to have a fun experience finding and battling them (other than 5 tier 0's with variants). Stage 1 is infinitely more exciting than Stage 0 because of the variety of illuvials and seeing larger Stage 3 illuvials occasionally. So when you build a fun 3D exploration capturing experience as a precursor to opening a pack of cards, maybe it's just the presentation that has to be reworked via some mechanic, and the region selection screen has to guide new players in a way that it educates them on what they're paying for.

One idea could be having the f2p stage 0 runs include tier 0-5 illuvials, but they look like blue holograms similar to the non-catchable illuvials that spawn during the pre-capture battle. Explain in a tutorial/first run for that account that to unlock catching tier 1-5's that you have to enter the paid zone.

gentle oriole
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I think part of the "opening a pack of cards" charm is lost on the constructs of the fuels and how they are each used and shards and essence and gear and ... and ... and ... You need more to go do a Stage 1 run than 150 Crypton. Do you care if you know where things are or are you flying blind (300 Solon "would-you-like-fries-with-that" upsell)? Do you have a weapon, or are you going to master using a pea shooter to take down a fast-moving chicken in a game with physical controls unlike most any other? You need boots and weapons and jetpacks and so many other things, you can't really put up the 150 Crypton until you have a baseline of some other stuff. You want to open the pack of cards, but you have to grind for a bit before you have a knife that can open the pack. That's the first thing that feels bad.

Higher level runs, you need higher level shards, which cost more. You need higher level Illuvials to get through the fights, successfully. There are more odds things will go wrong.

Paying for a pack of cards, you always end with some cards. In Overworld, you can pay for a few separate runs before you are ready to get your FIRST "card" ... and that's the second way it feels bad.

tiny plume
gentle oriole
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A final thought is that sometimes, you open a BOX of PACKS. Yeah, each pack is an experience, but sometimes, you just grab a display box off the shelf. You open a bunch of packs all at once. I feel like that's the experience you should go for if you implement a battle pass: This is 24 or 48 packs, not just "infinite."

viscid karma
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The battle pass shouldn't have illuvials in it, just fuel, shards and other consumables like that. It can offer a random tier 1-5 illuvial for example each 10 levels for the excitement, but I don't think illuvials should be obtained outside of OW.

tiny plume
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I sort of agree with both of you.

Box of packs is good.

Battlepass shouldn’t have pack.

Currently we don’t have a setup for either of those but we are working on it. Dev blog next week.

viscid karma
viscid karma
# tiny plume Oh that’s in line with my thinking but doesn’t solve the issue of paying each ti...

I don't think paying each time for a run is the problem itself (at least not 100%). It gets a bit overwhelming when you add the 3 fuels, shards, different stages, and time spent. The culmination of all that is what creates this negative feeling. If the run is paid upfront and you find everything else you need within OW it will greatly relieve the issue. That's if you want to keep the current pay to play model. Otherwise there are many other options too.

tiny plume
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Yeah we are looking at small changes first to see where the pain is.

short tangle
gentle oriole
short tangle
lavish nova
gentle oriole
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I'm agreeing with your point: Picking what you want to keep and spending the fuel later is not how OW is supposed to work. If someone just wants to pick and choose the good stuff, they should just use the marketplace. There's already a feature that allows you to spend your money exactly this way. If they want to bang round in OW because the zones are beautiful and they are trying to figure out how and why the wall art lights up, then there is still S0 for free.

lavish nova
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indeed great way to explain the system, marketplace is already there.

hard aurora
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I thought I would hate this, but I can see your thinking. It's more about progression and ascending (a game). I can see that these becons may even be part of a game pass perhaps if not purely earned or that they are if earned seasonal or have a max use amount.

As I write this I am favouring this thought journey much more. Thanks for sharing

severe sundial
solar berry
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What about the pass not being about battle, yet about fuel?

If I buy, say a 3 month pass, it includes a said amount of fuels at a determined price, with some benefits?

  • a skin
  • a run
  • extra percentage in rewards or something else

I appreciate the complexity of illuvums economy, however instead of having to wait untill I can afford playing, or have decision intertia because their are too many things to contemplate.
I can budget what I am willing to spend.
This gives me a sense of control.

I still have to do the runs, I still have to catch the illuvials, everything remains the same.

It just gives more options.

As for stages.
I'm starting to lean into the idea all can be caught in one area, and maybe the nft is minted after you leave the OW.

I see how this could potentially fill up the OW.
Or the idea of the main story in T0 then the player goes to the higher tiers for special Illuvials.

I see resources being the hardest to manage, and a difficultly on working out the price of the run, although I also see it being less of pain point, if you can gather all resources in one stage ( maybe not Illuvials )
And only paying extra once to utilise them, instead of paying extra to gather higher tier resources and then also paying extra to utilise them.

I get the idea to cater to those with extra money, however, seeing as those with extra money are the few, wouldn't it make sense to provide a means for those with less to provide the resources to market for the consumption of those with more?

Then also provide the opportunity for those with less to elevate their game play or at least use those funds to continue playing.

I may be completely misguided in all of these ideas, yet I believed at the beginning, the economy would, at least, provide the same avenues as MMMOs ect that provide a means to grind what others pay for.

hard aurora
solar berry
hard aurora
solar berry
placid umbra
# solar berry What about the pass not being about battle, yet about fuel? If I buy, say a 3 m...

100% agree. If we were to implement subscriptions, simply starting out with a recurring fuel purchase, maybe with a subscriber discount or locked-in price, would be my suggestion as well. Could even do it in tiers where higher tiers give more fuel and potentially other benefits. That would still allow for a la carte fuel purchases at market price, would help make the DAO's cash flow more predictable, and would probably be fairly easy to implement. And it appeals to folks like me who prefer to put things on auto-pilot instead of crunching spreadsheets every day 🙂

hazy monolith
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@tiny plume I wonder if you just paid for shard curing only if that would remove all the pain? That way you can do any stage run for free and at least see the rare illuvials, you can mine anything and craft the rare weapons, and it's just one pain point of curing shards, but you can enjoy the whole game.

tiny plume
crimson goblet
# tiny plume I don’t think it’s the right solution. Because then people would only ever captu...

If you writing this I think about the battle pass, is there already an discussion about it?
Maybe the battle pass should give access to the news features and daily a amount of stage 1,2,3 runs. Like 1 Stage 3 run, or 2 stage 2 , or 3 stage 1 and a weekly or monthly package of shards / solon, for a bronze pass, more for silver, more for gold and so on. Then its still limited but people just have to pay monthly or what ever. And people that want to play more just can buy more fuel.

hazy monolith
severe sundial
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Consumers do love it more if they're given the choice to spend rather than feeling forced to. Gives a better reputation for the developers, too

analog widget
severe sundial
short tangle
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If you only pay when you capture, the game dies, and I'm out. Why? For the same reason that a casino works. The fun is in surpassing yourself between spending and earning. But if, for example, a slot machine gives you a $300 prize, and you pay $100 to get it, yet it cost you $0 to win the prize, you lose the enjoyment of challenging yourself. It becomes the most boring job in the world. Imagine the most boring game ever—yes, exactly, that would be Illuvium. So, while it's incredible for making money, it fails logically. Many people would be doing the same thing.

If, in the case of Illuvium, the prize is an illuvial, it will lose much of its value due to oversupply, and more and more people will leave the game. That illuvial will be bought less frequently, causing even more players to get bored until only the person who created the idea is left playing.

severe sundial
short tangle
severe sundial
crimson goblet