#Pay to mint

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

static trellis
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What if instead of paying fuel to travel, we pay fuel to mint?
I was talking with a friend that is free to play, and he had no more energy and sae a holo. And he said that if that was a dark holo he would have paid to get more energy to get him.

Now if we dont find anything that we want, we are forced to consume that energy because the money is already spent. And it is not appealing for free 2 play players to pay for something that is not desired.
If we only pay when we mint, f2p players can explore the game for full and they will not resist the temptation to not pay when they get something nice.

Also, now the scanning is useless as you already have to go for the whole map anyway to use all that energy.
If we have pay to mint, some players will go for quick raids in which they scan, mint those 3-4 illuvials they need, then go back and so it again
And will go without scanning when they need ore.
If you want to play like now, just play the same, search the whole map and you will pay the same amount of fuel.

Pros:

  • great way to transform f2p in paying players
  • more revenue because more people will use scanning
  • you are not forced to mint items you dont need just because you already spent the money

Cons:
-i dont know, you tell me

Thank you for attention 🙏

split mason
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This has been talked about and I think the conclusion was that this would make it easy for bots to find all the best stuff really fast with no risk. If we can stop that somehow I think this is a very good idea.

static trellis
split mason
raven mason
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100% agree, make it all F2P, pay to actually turn the illuvial into a NFT you actually own. Otherwise its useless digital pixels. Make Leviathan/Ranked only use NFT illuvials, casual can use your non-nfts. Just have a single fuel source, convert different zero fuels into a singular one. This will also help IMX sucking.

split mason
raven mason
split mason
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not having stages might be a good idea, makes things simpler too

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but that has nothing to do with this idea really

late hamlet
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If you could make runs for free and only pay for minting, everything would have the same value, and the concept of "rarity" among different tiers would disappear. For example, instead of paying $100 to eventually find a dark holo Rhamphy, you would make all the runs for free and only pay 10 cents to mint it.
One might argue that the time required to find it could add another cent to its cost, but that's also where bots come into play to eliminate the time factor, as Fight4ETH has already mentioned.

static trellis
errant owl
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Haha, I was just mentioning this in the other channel... Funny how the hive mind works 🤣. I agree with this system and there are still ways to mitigate the effect of bots taking advantage. I think we can allow f2p to FARM for illuvials at a cost, but by paying with a currency that can be earned in game. All Illuvials caught this way are non-NFT. It's basically a gacha system whereby this currency can be attained by time spent in the game, or by paying for it. You're essentially "rolling" for new Illuvials by paying to enter the hunting ground for a chance at getting some Illuvials. We could then consolidate the stages together and just make it rare for the best and most sought after tiers of Illuvials to appear. We don't need to reinvent the wheel here. Gacha games have done this successfully for years.

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I particularly am more partial to how Guild of Guardians decided to handle NFT minting over this current system in Illuvium. Basically, whatever characters you initially acquire are account bound and non-NFT. However, to gain access to a second tier of upgrades, you can mint your characters by paying with a particular in-game currency called "ascension tokens" to give you an advantage. The cost of minting with ascension tokens changes depending on the number of NFTs minted or are currently listed in the marketplace. So if you have a ton of one particular character minted or a lack of, the price is stabilized by increasing or decreasing the cost to mint, therefore controlling the supply in the market. It's pretty smart and I've watched it after 2 to 3 months, the market has reached proper equilibrium and looks sustainable. I feel this is much better than minting every god damn Illuvial we capture and flooding the market with worthless NFTs.

late hamlet
errant owl
static trellis
errant owl
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Many gacha games handle this by setting limits on how much can be earned... Then how can bots take advantage?

late hamlet
# static trellis I understood after Fight4ETH told me about the botters that they will take advan...

It's a bad idea, even without considering botters. Instead of using both money and time to determine the value of Illuvials, you're reducing it to just a time metric (more or less). As a result, an Illuvial's value would only be based on the time it takes to capture it. There are people who don't place a high value on their time, which would significantly impact the value difference of all the tiers. A t5 would be almost the same value as a t1.

static trellis
static trellis
errant owl
# static trellis What if we price the fuel per tier? So a t5 illuvial would cost more to mint tha...

Honestly Phobos, I think your idea to have to pay a price to mint can work as I've seen it work in other web3 games as well, namely Guild of Guardians. You can check how they're doing on tokentrove and see that NFT values have reached an equilibrium and remain stable because of their system.

The only thing is, we still need to somewhat gate access to the hunting grounds to capture illuvials too, but at the very least, a system that requires you to pay a cost to mint is sound and has shown to work already in other web3 games

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The way I would control the supply-side would actually be to tie the cost of minting to the actual supply in the market... So if there is an abundance of a particular Illuvial in the marketplace, the cost to mint also increases...

static trellis
errant owl
# static trellis This is a really great idea

I tend to find a lot of great ideas are already out there and this is just me having played other web3 games and reporting to you guys systems that I've seen already working and working well 😁

static trellis
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I know dr spoon knows what he is talking about and i trust the team and the council.
But these seem like good ideas, maybe the team will figure a way to implement them.

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I only want the best for illuvium, and was thinking of how we can transform f2p to p2p

errant owl
static trellis
late hamlet
# static trellis What if we price the fuel per tier? So a t5 illuvial would cost more to mint tha...

you could do that for sure, that would determine what value difference there is.

What you actually do with this change very much simplified...
Instead of selling card packs, you sell the cards directly.
So if little steve walks into the mall and wana buy a rhamphire card, he picks that card pays it and walks out of the mall.
Instead of little steve buying 10 packs of cards an hopefully getting a rhamphire out of them.

Some might prefer your system over the other system, card sellers of games do since decades. 🙂

errant owl
# late hamlet you could do that for sure, that would determine what value difference there is....

So heres the part where I think we can still go with the card pack concept, but done in the way that models the gacha systems in other games while also limiting bot activity.

It works like this:

  1. the cost to enter the hunting grounds costs an in-game currency we'll call "flux"

  2. flux can either be earned for free up to a daily limit of, let's say, 1000. You can buy more flux by purchasing fuel to create more.

  3. you could then spend the flux to "open a card pack" and hunt for illuvials for, let's say 450 per run. Any Illuvial you capture is in-game only and non-NFT.

  4. an additional in-game currency we'll call "catalyst" is used to mint an Illuvial. Minting an Illuvial gives you an additional advantage by unlocking a second tier of upgrades in the form of stat multipliers or something else.

  5. to create catalyst, you need to convert fuel.

  6. The cost to mint an Illuvial with catalyst changes depending on current supply. If there are too many groks minted, the cost to mint an additional grok would be proportionately high.

  7. to advance your Illuvial in this second tier of upgrades, you need to burn minted Illuvials to acquire more of another account-bound currency we'll call "reagent". Consuming reagent gives a chance to upgrade your Illuvial, but also has a chance to fail. This keeps the need to burn NFT Illuvials up.

This is the exact kind of system already implemented by Guild of Guardians and I think this is something that would work well for Illuvium too. It just seems to make the best of what web2 already has accomplished as well as establishing a system that stabilizes an NFT economy.

errant owl
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I think another important key with this idea is to create layers of separation based on the utility of different currencies so fluctuations of value in said currencies have less of an overall effect on the price of fuel, thus creating a more stable and organic fuel market

static trellis
errant owl
late hamlet
# errant owl So heres the part where I think we can still go with the card pack concept, but ...

what is actually the improvement you are hoping to achieve, or are you just thinking this system is not good, you rather like it like GOG?

  • daily limits mean not very much without kyc, you just create multiple accounts to get more of that flux.
  • a little too much first come first serve for my taste, with minting getting more expensive the longer we are into a set
  • strongly against a feature where whales can sweep floors to increase the strength of their own illuvials. I like the system more where you actually have to spend time fighting if you want stronger illuvials.
  • many people on this discord feel 3 fuels are too complicated, this system would add another 3 ingame "currencies" on top of that.

fuel market stabilization will come with time. Nobody should expect stable markets when land just realeased and is building up, and the demand can fluctate massively with a low amount of DAU.
Also, i'm not sure we should actually think about a complete overhaul of the ingame economy this early into open beta.

late hamlet
static trellis
errant owl
# late hamlet what is actually the improvement you are hoping to achieve, or are you just thin...

Fair enough.

I mainly was thinking of how to tackle the issue of oversupply in the economy since there's no buffer for excessive minting except by decreasing the price of fuel, which we've seen on the way to bottom without heavily nerfing land production. Also wanted to address f2p onboarding as well. I guess with the current state of illuvium w/o enough fuel sinks or demand, this problem is just so much more exacerbated that I see a scaling cost to mint based on supply as a buffer would make for a more optimal solution vs nerfing overall fuel production.

late hamlet
# errant owl Fair enough. I mainly was thinking of how to tackle the issue of oversupply in...

Yea, it's a fair concern and not a bad take to tackle the problem.
Was never a big fan myself of controlling supply by manipulating fuel production in Zero.

On the other hand, it would likely be not as big of a concern in the community if they didn't overshoot the production in the beginning to bring fuel onto the FEX asap and kick of the economy. Land was always be intentioned to be a long time play, i remember talks of devs where they stated that t1 should take roughly 1 year to be built out and not like having nexus9 done within the first month of gameplay as we saw now with the increased build up speed for lands in the first weeks.

I feel with a couple of feature updates for arena, leaderboards and tournaments for the leviathan modes. The demand will increase at least slightly and with a good marketing campaign following that it could bring enough continuous demand they might increase the fuel production a little bit again. (probably not the 4x but a little 🙂 )

Additional fuel sinks are always welcomed i guess. Offering a customer as many possibilities to spend money is the way to generate revenue and keep the economy healthy. But they also have to be implemented very carefully, since those (could) have a big impact on the economy and also UX.

thorny matrix
# errant owl The way I would control the supply-side would actually be to tie the cost of min...

The way I would control the supply-side would actually be to tie the cost of minting to the actual supply in the market... So if there is an abundance of a particular Illuvial in the marketplace, the cost to mint also increases...

This doesn't solve the bot issue as they could farm infinitely and at no cost with true ftp. Also with this suggested pricing model, the rarer the illuvial, the cheaper the mint would be too, which would destroy their values on secondary.

Maybe i'm missing something...