Make OW Runs Accessible For Landowners To Match Recent Zero Fuel Production Nerf of 75%

[rough pebble]

Simple... When transfers go live for landowners to use their own fuel - give them a discount equal to the fuel production nerf so they can actually play the game.

With the fuel nerf a T1 can now only do ONE S1 run every 3 or so days. That essentially makes lands less attractive to play. Allow landowners to personally use their fuel at pre-nerf rates.

This can be implemented in a few different ways... either through a fuel transfer multiplier, redeemable coupon, or fuel crate. Conversation is ongoing and will evolve to the most reasonable solution.

Make OW Run Cost 75% Less For Landowners To Match Recent Zero Fuel Production Nerf of 75%

[chilly garnet]

Fixed it. Still upvoting.
Make OW Run Cost 75% Less For Landowners To Match Recent Zero Fuel Production Nerf of 75%

[safe steeple]

It would be better to revert the fuel change than do this. This just means for sure the land holders earn less.

[uneven mortar]

So ROI now from 2 years to 6 years or so?
This is a joke imo

[rough pebble]

As per Johnny... it's a temporary measure to meet demand and will change again. But in the mean time landowners should not be punished in the ability for their own ability to do OW runs

[uneven mortar]

Temporary until when?? .. when they will decide the games have enough players or? Who decides that?

[safe steeple]

Temporarily fuck land holders by making massive changes? Shows land isn’t a priority and resolutions aren’t thought out

[rough pebble]

I would assume yes, until demand rises and more fuel is needed

[honest palm]

so 1 day or never

[uneven mortar]

Yeah right ... i tried honestly to stay positive and stuff but this....
I'm done ... all that they could come up with is let's screw landowners once again

Their inability to fix a game that should have been completed way back, the total lack of communications, the lack of responsibility, the total mess of a launch rushing all games together when clearly land should've been launched at least 1 month or so earlier, lack of features, lack of promised bonus for the owners of megacities that was approved through an IIP etc etc

It's too much.. maybe they will be able to reboot this in 6-12-24 months whatever but as for now and with this decision i'm calling it a day

[safe steeple]

Fuck that with these changes and trajectory ilz won’t make it 24 months lol

[rough pebble]

I feel that. That is why I made this post... to try and get some compensation for landholders because of the nerf

[uneven mortar]

I wish you good luck with this

[safe steeple]

What would be better is land holders can buy their previously amount of runs with a coupon. So if they could generate 1 run per day we say that’s the permanent rate. They can trade their daily produce fuel for this coupon or sell their fuel to market. Makes it so land holders get their minimum run regardless of how fuel is fucked with and demand isn’t drastically changed

[rough pebble]

@distant summit Is there any consideration for landowners to still be able to do personal OW runs without having a 75% cripple?

[rough pebble]

That's not a bad solution... almost like fuel crates

[tawny bison]

<@&1107754780744487002> this ones most likely going to governance so read up lol.

[safe steeple]

Right but make it permanent too. So say they can get a minimum of x runs per land. Maybe it’s 1 run per tier or like 1 at 1, 2 at 3, 3 at 4 or something. Then they can change prices without pissing off land holders so much. It would be a solution to future changes as well as this change
Minimum specifically so it’s even better for land holders if something happens and t1 generates 300 fuel per day. Then you get your 1 run and 100 fuel to sell

[rough pebble]

futureproof price changes for landholders is ideal
This won't be the last price change I'm sure

[safe steeple]

Exactly the point. If you fully change the prices all you do is fuck land holders profit as well as generation. If you instead change this iip to the coupon idea you don’t affect demand so you’re only fucked by the changes not by the loss in demand

Currently with your iip it has the side effect of preventing upward movement in price for fuel. Coupon allows for your idea to work, future proofs it, and allows for non land holders to increase demand in the fuel

[rough pebble]

@modest hinge what do you think of giving coupons to landowners to be able to play OW at pre nerf prices?

[rough pebble]

Another benefit of this is it would bring back value to land

[modest hinge]

hmmm

[safe steeple]

Exactly. It would prevent a loss in demand. It would satisfy the land holders and give a benefit to them. Would provide trust land holders will always be able to play at minimum x runs from their land
They don’t have to choose the coupon so they still have the choice to sell if they don’t want to play

[modest hinge]

"With the fuel nerf a T1 can now only do ONE S1 run every 3 or so days."
yea this is problematic

[analog blade]

We need to clearly define how many runs per day to each stage every land plot tier gives. This should be clear as water.

[modest hinge]

it should be at least 1 run per day

[safe steeple]

Yep exactly be specific and clear in how much each tier gets.
@modest hinge I’d argue you decide per tier so maybe in tier order it’s 1, 1.5, 2, 2.5, 3

[analog blade]

we don't care about the $ price tag we care about the fuel. This has to be clearly defined. Everything revolves around that.

[rough pebble]

things seemed to be fine for ow runs per tier pre-nerf... why not have that be the baseline?

[safe steeple]

If that’s the pre change math that’s fine I just didn’t math it. Was it 1 free run per tier before?

[tawny bison]

i don't think it was to begin with but i would like to have it be based on how many runs per plot/tier per day

that just seems like a sensical way to think about fuel output balancing

[safe steeple]

Youd either want to make coupons exchangeable so you can exchange for higher tier runs or save your fuel and buy a stage 3 run, t4 could do like 3 stage 3 before so you want to make sure they still can

[cosmic prism]

don't think you can link the output to fixed amount of runs per time period.
you wouldn't be flexible for increasing playerbase and therefore limit growth.

[safe steeple]

You can easily. Just make a pass that the connected wallet has to own a land for. It’s priced dynamically based on how much a t1 can produce. Eg now it’s 50 a day. So stage 1 run cost 50 crypton. When that person tries to do a run it asks if you want to pay or use a pass.
To produce this faster it can be off chain even

[cosmic prism]

sure you can add additional systems for fuel transfer.
but as it is right now it wouldn't work

[safe steeple]

Right but that why it’s done asap. Technically as of right now none of these changes work so I’m not concerned about that. The dao is meant to focus on building solutions first problems which is exactly this. If we voted down all ideas because it’s not available right now then nothing would pass

[rough pebble]

This was the projected output per day pre-nerf

[safe steeple]

How much was each run I don’t remember

[cosmic prism]

Yea agree

[cosmic prism]

those numbers are actually of by arround 30%

[rough pebble]

150 - 450 - 1350

[rough pebble]

was a little higher in practice

[safe steeple]

So basically t1,2,3 could do a stage 1,2,3 respectively then 4 could do a few. Just make coupons match original pricing, eg tier 1 land gets a s1 run and you’re set. Math itself isn’t the big deal we just need this done and should put in the iip it has to be a high priority change. Not put on the backlog for 6 months

[cosmic prism]

you could add 4x multiplier in the upcoming sending fuel to ow feature and done.

[safe steeple]

Yeah but I’m not 100% confident they’d patch all dupe bugs that would create. Unless you make it a 1 way transfer and you can’t send back to a wallet once it’s done. As in transfer, multiply, immediate burn.
@rough pebble if you amend your iip to match the coupon idea in some form me know and I’ll change my vote on this

[cosmic prism]

but in the end i feel zero needs just additional value, nothings changed about that.
everybody with basic maths could see the firesale of land coming, also the fuel supply nerf...

[safe steeple]

Oh for sure this was just extra gas on the zero dumpster fire. Even with this idea implemented to fix the fuck up on production we still need zero to actually produce value.

[cosmic prism]

afaik nobody can send fuel arround.
after that feature a landowner is just able to send fuel to his ow ranger.
not more not less.

[rough pebble]

I changed the wording on the OP description to leave room for how this can get implented

[safe steeple]

Perfect I like that it makes it specific to land holders, to prevent massive demand reduction, while providing the benefit. I think the name is clear too but might want to put a note in the zero channel with a quick description to make sure votes are still accurate

I Changed to upvote

[rough pebble]

This should be fairly straightforward to implement if it goes through.

[safe steeple]

I agree. We’d hopefully push the council to have this done asap and be provided specific reasons it can’t be done in the immediate future. If they can screw land holders on a Friday afternoon I don’t think fixing should be low priority

[undone fiber]

Lots of people here don't understand how an economy works. This was done to raise the price of fuel. You produce less fuel but you can sell it for more.

If you could do runs for 1/4 of the price of other OW players, you could undercut their prices by a huge margin. Then, in turn, they would start to complain and stop buying your fuel. Then your fuel would worth less again...

The only way to fix this is to bring demand by releasing pvp leaderboards, which would create demand for illuvials and at that point, fuel production can be raised again.

[rough pebble]

added u for dm

[safe steeple]

Added

[safe steeple]

I don’t think anyone here is saying that this idea is the worst forever and never has a place to be done. The main argument I’ve seen and believe un is there isn’t the player base to support this change. 4x is too much and you can test with much lower changes. This isn’t even considering the fact that even with fuel going down people were still saying the game was too expensive and not playing because of that.

If we had 1m players that are pushing price enough to encourage price discovery I think all of this would be different

[analog blade]

the problem is now owning land doesn't give you access to play the OW since you produce so little fuel compared to the cost to travel.

[safe steeple]

This too. Which this iip resolves I believe

[latent ocean]

Adding my voice to this. Yes! Land owners should get a 3x multiplier when transferring to overworld to match previously promised production levels for self play.

[analog blade]

another idea is this
https://discord.com/channels/760344898200666112/1274080051029086319

[rough pebble]

I'm all for whatever idea helps the whole and doesn't target one sector of the project to devalue... so will also upvote your idea

[undone fiber]

Guys, I also own lands so I understand that you are upset. But this would just be a market distortion. Not only would it not solve the problem, it could potentially make it worse.

We can't just have a knee jerk reaction to every change we don't like within a game aconomy. This will be close to as complex as a real economy, and you sure don't see land owners getting a 75% rebate at the store in real life!

Fixing demand is the only way out, but I guess it will take time.

[safe steeple]

Coupon idea wouldn’t disrupt further since it would be a return to the original methods. If you believe the way you do then really you should be submitting an iip to retract the fuel fuck up

[undone fiber]

How do you explain to the paying OW player that you can do the same run as them for 1/4 of the price? Do you think they would understand it and keep paying 4x anyway??

This is the very beginning phase of a long road until we have some sort of a stable game economy.

I agree that the change seems a bit drastic, and this seems to be a pattern with the game economy team (making changes a little heavy-handed), but they have a better understanding of how far we are from being able to release pvp leaderboards.

My guess: we are not as close as we would like, hence that are trying to make a drastic change once to prop up the fuel price for a while.

[safe steeple]

I produce the fuel and it’s a benefit to investing thousands of dollars into the protocol above the runs. I’ve never seen people crying about nft benefits in crypto and instead it makes people want to buy them more. And it’s only a minimum amount of runs. If I want to run 5 stage 1 runs with a t1 land I have to pay for 4

[latent ocean]

Only for the fuel transferred from LAND. Not for regularly bought fuel.

Might motivate them to buy land? And that's a bad thing why?

[safe steeple]

And this isn’t to make it so land holders always travel cheaply. It just makes it so they get how many travel they originally had. Well establish a baseline of how many is fair per tier then they get that many. So investors aren’t totally screwed by tests

[undone fiber]

This is a temporary change, by the time any of your suggestions could be built, it could be time for another balance change again. Not to mention the tech effort needed to put into implementing any of your suggestions.

I leave you to it, but you are focusing on the wrong issue here.

[rough pebble]

The idea would be to make it future proof... so landowners always have a vehicle to play and not be crippled by price changes.

[undone fiber]

I bet you that when the time comes for a change in the other direction, there would be land owners demanding to keep their existing benefit again, pushing for yet another change

[rough pebble]

At that time landowners would be making money via sales... I don't think we'd be too upset about that

[latent ocean]

We are simply asking for a maintaining of existing value. Same rule should apply if fuel production is boosted again in the future to reduce the bonus land owners get from transferring fuel. We are already building the module to transfer fuel from Land to Overworld. It's a simply addition to throw this bonus ratio into that coding. Not a hard change at all.

[hollow birch]

This is such a dumb idea it will just get us back to where we start and nothing would change

[spark hawk]

every tier divide by 4 for the revised nerf

[hollow birch]

U guys do know this thing fixes nothing of the fuel problem Making it less doesn't mean anything when people have 10s of thousand of fuel now it will make it where u can't sell fuel even more of a problem

[undone fiber]

But the existing value was just a shot in the dark... We can't ever build a functioning game economy if the team does not have the power to balance things as needed. And those adjustments need to be based on real player numbers/demand. Which (hopefully) will also change

[reef fulcrum]

i love this idea

[rough pebble]

Making it so T1 lands can do a personal S1 run every 3 or so days is pretty bad. If anyone thought they were going to do runs via land is now SOL.

[reef fulcrum]

ready to put that IMC seat to good use?

[hollow birch]

That's a totally different problem this idea is dumb due to people already have a ton of fuel to run this actually hurts the problem til u can use ur fuel to do runs this doesn't solve the problem

[undone fiber]

But how can you ever balance this fairly if you are trying to make it a permanent run/day/land plot? What if 1 player focuses on fuel production and another focuses on blueprints? The first one will produce 2x (random number) as much fuel so a fix number of runs would not be fair for them (and would benefit the blueprint guy immensely)

[rough pebble]

This idea is for when implementation of landowners are able to use their own fuel for travel and gives them a baseline amount of runs/day

[modest hinge]

2 more weeks

[hollow birch]

Still a bad idea actually because of how much bonus fuel has been giving out the only thing that solves the problem is more player base that's the problem

[rough pebble]

Bonus fuel comes from the difference between what Retail pays for fuel versus what actual market value is

[hollow birch]

The best fix for this would be changing the ratio at which the Dao produces fuel but that would be cutting into their profits so slim chance of passing

[rough pebble]

Changing the ratio will be a hard pill to swallow for token holders... but giving landholders a travel coupon is an easier pill to swallow

[hollow birch]

That might be better than reducing ow runs cost because all this does is make the problem worst with people having 10s of thousands of fuel already

[reef fulcrum]

this idea:

• has no extra cost for the DAO
• incentives everyone to own 1 plot of land (increase in landowner unique owners which is awesome)
• has (i think) no exploits since you can link account to land and fuel is not nft so not transferable
• finally shows some interest in long time investors
• reduces overall fuel offer since players will be less interested in selling their fuel and instead use it in game

i can see an issue where other things can be bought with fuel like disks

[rough pebble]

the nerf was implemented to match supply with demand. That excess supply will be chewed up eventually and there will be an equilibrium. This ensures landowners get a fair value for their fuel in OW runs...

[hollow birch]

Yes I like the coupon idea this idea in this channel is bad and people voting for it have no idea how bad it is since it will only cost them money when trying to sell fuel

[safe steeple]

This idea doesn’t affect that at all. Since those people could have just done the same amount of runs if the reduction change was never made. This is a solution to avoiding bad ideas but what you’re talking about is an issue with the reduction not this iip

[hollow birch]

If u reduce ow runs those with fuel will buy less fuel because they already have thousands that's what this is about is reduction in ow cost

[safe steeple]

Ah idea has been changed. We are going to write something up but it’ll be basically a match of what landholders could do before and specific to land holders. Eg if before the changes a t1 land could do 1 stage 1 run this iip will make it so you can. It won’t be you can run unlimited runs for that price. You’ll basically get the same runs per day that you had before the fuel production reduction changes

I agreed with you originally and we worked out a compromise

[hollow birch]

Well would be more easier to shallow if we just make it were we get tokens for like 2 stage 2 runs a week or whatever that number

[safe steeple]

we are going to think it fully out but want the option to either run at reduced cost for equal amount as before or the choice to sell. If you just give the people the free runs then you’re providing too much benefit and still negatively affecting demand

[hollow birch]

I think the free runs is a better idea

[reef fulcrum]

to solve possible exploits perhaps we could instead let land produce say one stage 1 ''pass'' every 24hs. one stage 2 pass for t2s etc.

[safe steeple]

Not for free. For equal ratio cost as prior to the changes. Otherwise this is a totally different argument

[reef fulcrum]

perfect

[hollow birch]

So is this for land holders only or all players and I am not sure they will be able to change the ratio only for certain players think the free token idea would be faster to implement

[safe steeple]

Only for land holders. This isn’t about giving more benefits than what was there before it’s about restoring value that was stripped. I can’t be convinced that land holders should get a free travel coupon.
It’s also not about fastest implementation it’s about being fair and reasonable. Let’s not get distracted you’ll see I’m always against free stuff

[hollow birch]

Also look at the other one that @analog blade is wants about changing the ratios that's a good one too

[safe steeple]

I put notes in there as well. I argued for a smaller change rather than fully stripping dao of generation

[hollow birch]

I am always against free stuff too it's why I hate free airdrops

[hollow birch]

Well more people need to go in there and check that out too

[surreal hill]

No we should first wait for numbers and reasons why this change had been implemented. Before jumping into irrational debates.

[surreal hill]

Nothing had been stripped and value has only been lost on the very short term, cutting the generated fuel supply to 1/4th of previous numbers will by default mean your asset goes up 300% if demand stays the same.
With less fuel generated u will be able to get a more sustainable price for your fuel.

[timid mural]

But doesn't that then raise the cost of fuel again, and further deter players from paying the high fuel cost

[hollow birch]

Think more land owners wanted to use their fuel for runs not to sell

[surreal hill]

Not necessarily, maybe we were generating 4x the fuel needed to meet demand at the bottom end of the fuel rail.
We cannot determine anything without the numbers that gave incentive for this change

[timid mural]

Have always wanted to use my own fuel. And calculated it out so I can generate an adequate amount for only myself. Bought a certain land plot because I thought it would better suit my needs. Now telling me I get 1/4 is ouch

[surreal hill]

Well that’s the goal right, being able to use your own fuel. The cost of runs can always be be readjusted to the fuel situation

[rough pebble]

Yes, this idea is to allow landowners the ability to reasonably play the game.

Setting a base standard of runs possible per tier makes sense…

So, using pre nerf as the baseline… which gave a t1 an average of 200 fuel/day…. That’s about 1.3 s1 runs/day… but now, the nerf is 75% so I send 25% of fuel - say 40ish and then claim a s1 run coupon that gets redeemed. Dao can still print on top of that fuel but landowners get the difference in a coupon. More radically, Dao could print fuel on top of the whole 150 but that would just lead to more inflation. Best to just give a discount to landholders.

[surreal hill]

we have to keep in mind that fuel generation got buffed kinda hard in the opening stages to boost production, now with ilz being the most popular game, and the changes where u can play from cold storage, the production must be booming.
and if ilz produces to much and we maybe where on a trajectory to grinding fuel value to 0.
nobody can predict the actual numbers before we have them and see them, and u need to launch everything and adjust as u go.
we need the numbers and the reasoning from the team, before we can make any iip's on this.

keep in mind guys, giving close to 100% bonus on fuel sales, legit cuts your share of the money we receive from fuel in half.
i do agree that a solution must be created to enable using your own fuel, but thats something i have seen multible times as a goal for the team.

[oak torrent]

that's now how bonuses worked, it's always a 1:19 ratio of landowner produced fuel : DAO printed fuel

[latent ocean]

They way you phrased the title of this is bad. It should read, "Let Landowners Get 75% Bonus Fuel When Transferring to Overworld to Match Previous Fuel Production" Can you change it at this point?

[dusky light]

Upvoted! I was thinking that maybe I can start playing OW with the fuel I generate, and now this update 🥲 ok, I can wait another year for production to be restored 😂 they really should benefit land owners with more easy OW access

[rough pebble]

Yah, I can reword it better when I get home

[reef fulcrum]

im sure council will at the very least ask for revision no matter what you type in that title at this stage

[rough pebble]

The idea should get across one way or another… make ow realistically accessible for landowners despite current and future fuel price adjustments.

One s1 ow run/day for T1 is a good baseline.

It’s not a matter if they can implement a coupon system… it’s more of will they. We already have fuel crates… so the system is there and can be modified to make a redeemable ow run coupons that is not transferable or tradable.

[reef fulcrum]

yes exactly

we can try and take it to vote before council changes, if it gets denied then we try again with new council 😂

[lunar carbon]

People have a fundamental misunderstanding of how this works.

Landowners get 5% of revenue, the change in fuel in any plot makes NO DIFFERENCE. As long as every plot is nerfed at the same rate, the outcome is EXACTLY THE SAME

It seems like u sell 25% as much fuel, but the fact is that previously 25% of fuel sales were successful. Its just a rebalancing of the maths with zero change to financial outcome

[rough pebble]

Well…. The BIG difference is… before a T1 could have done an S1 run per day when transfers to self account go live… now they cannot.

The cost of runs has not changed but production has

That’s what this post is about… making it so landowners can do ow runs… not so much about sales

[analog blade]

buying land should be equivalent to buying a game subscription.

[analog blade]

you think it makes sense for someone who bought a T1 land to only be abe to do one stage 1 run every 3 days?

it was actually fine before this update with a 4x rate. Changing the land production values like we did today isn't the right move to do IMO.

[reef fulcrum]

i think you fundamentally misunderstood this feedback idea. Its not about a change in fuel or re balancing it, its about rewarding landowners with a discount in overworld. Two very different things

btw caps does not make people UNDERSTAND BETTER WHAT YOU ARE TYPING

[lunar carbon]

No, Landowners position on doing self runs has not changed. If just directly sending your fuel to your wallet is possible then you can effectively circumvent the DAO entirely. I mean maybe it works, but then everyone who doesn't self fund would make absolutely no money since there's no one left buying fuel.

Its an interesting conundrum

[lunar carbon]

To be clear, I like the idea of landowners having a discount in overworld, essentially having a subscription to the game and whatever else. But Land has to be balanced to serve the overworld economy. Any other benefits need to be treated separately maybe

[rough pebble]

Afaik when players send fuel to their account for playing the DAO will still print 19x and sell on market. However with this coupon the difference would not... that's what the DAO would need to give up.

[lunar carbon]

I mean that could be cool. I guess the question is how much revenue is the DAO willing to sacrifice. Is the increased land volume and royalty going to make up for the millions of dollars the DAO loses?

Land's intent was to create a fun economy, not circumvent it.

Now its not as big of a deal if Illuvium has 5m players and 20k land. But with sub 20k players and 20k land, u can see how this would be high risk

[rough pebble]

Yes... but some landowners will still sell fuel as they don't care about playing... others will do partial... and yet others will just play. That said, it's a better use of incentivization because it doesn't require giving airdrop or tokens... it gives game play. Yes there is a sacrifice... but it brings back value to land and also increases ow play and burns fuel.

We saw fuel crates dropped to landholders so it is possible to do something like this.

Otherwise what? Landowners just say ok... I paid xhundreds or thousands of dollars, but I still can't play the game.

[lunar carbon]

Alright let me frame it another way, what happens when they exceed land cost?

Say your land cost $1000, and then you get $1001 worth of value from game time, in the literal sense. The further you go beyond that point the more it affects the economy of Illuvium. Eventually Rhamphy costs 1c, cause half the players are essentially playing for free

Look I want added utility for land same as everyone. But there is A LOT of risk when it comes to circumventing the fuel exchange in any way. I rather look for other solutions personally

[rough pebble]

Not for free... and not forever.
landowners still pay 40 or 50 fuel and the DAO covers the 100. This happens as long as the fuel crisis is in effect. As DAU increases and fuel production also increses then the coupon will not be needed because landowners will be producing at a baseline or above. this sets a temporary baseline for OW travel for landowners. Just as the production cut is temporary.

[lunar carbon]

Hmmmm, so by fuel crisis you are referring to a lack of demand on the player side?

[rough pebble]

essentially the miscalculation of DAU in relation to fuel production and the inflation of fuel on the market because of low demand.
as playerbase and fuel demand increases this solution will not be necessary... but it takes care of landowners in the meantime

[rough pebble]

Make OW Runs Accessible For Landowners To Match Recent Zero Fuel Production Nerf of 75%

[reef fulcrum]

yeah totally. As i see it this is exactly that, an idea to separately treat a benefit to landowners without affecting fuel balance

[lunar carbon]

If you want more financial benefit to landowners then that's a request sure. Its not without ramifications.

As a temporary thing to help landowners play the game given their investment, I can see the sentiment around that for sure

[rough pebble]

that's understood... is the tradeoff worth it is the question. I'm trying to determine if it's worth pursuing to make a proposal or if it's DOA

[lunar carbon]

I think with a set time limit I could see it being viable. Say landowners get a benefit for 2-4 weeks, sort of like a promotional event

[rough pebble]

ok... or maybe the coupon has an expiry or something

[lunar carbon]

So the coupon is given to landowners? I didn't quite understand the technical aspects

Oh u mentioned fuel crate. I rather do that, just airdrop everyone fuel crates which was already promised, and a system that already exists

[rough pebble]

So the mechanic idea would be... landowner chooses OW run option... say s1 run. they submit their 40 or 50 crypton and receive a coupon. That allows them one S1 run to be used within a limited time.

[rough pebble]

that works too... they choose s1 run... submit 40 or 50 and receive fuel crate which gives them 150 in their account

[lunar carbon]

Yeah I more meant the entire system should be on a time limit. Say DAU doesn't increase for 6 months. Landowners are essentially slowly siphoning potential runway from the DAO for that entire period

Does Landowners having trouble doing Stage 1 runs matter if the entire company goes bankrupt?

[rough pebble]

I guess that would be up for discussion... and possibly have extensions depending on the state of things at review points

[lunar carbon]

I think reviews is good too for sure. I definitely just dont think it should be open ended

[rough pebble]

there would be aother benefits... having more people actually playing OW, enjoying the game, maybe making content... keep value in land... there are a lot of benefits besides compensation

I think what could bankrupt the game is stagnancy... So concurrently doing whatever the team is doing to bring new players in is great... and this keeps things active now

[lunar carbon]

I mean it gets more people playing, but at a far lower cost. Which essentially devalues the entire Illuvial/item economy, its essentially inflation

[rough pebble]

I guess we'd have to run numbers and see how much landowners utilize the option to play with a discount and determine if the benefit outweighs the cost. Currently there is what, 210,000 ILV being given away in order to incentivize gameplay and onboard new players. How is that working out? There is a benefit/cost ratio there as well. Same as with the Fuel reduction as well... a benefit and a cost. The cost will likely be less people selling and less people playing OW.

I agree, it's a conundrum. Asceticizing landholders both in fuel production AND gameplay isn't gonna bode well for the health of the game either way.

[latent ocean]

This is true if they were to sell in ETH, and thats it. But it changes if players could use their land to fuel their overworld runs, which now it is much more difficult and not really possible on T1/2 much anymore.

[modest hinge]

it has changed because the cost to travel is not nerfed by 75%

and the intermediate implication if this nerf is affecting people who just bought plots just before the nerf, new landowners are at a HUGE disadvantage.
i agree that revenue distribution between iz and the dao is still the same.

transfering fuel to ow still requires the dao to create sell order with 19x the amount transfered to ow

[lunar carbon]

The 210,000 ILV is coming from the ingame rewards pool, which doesn't actually affect revenue or runway at all. It certainly affects other things, but these are very different zones

[lunar carbon]

Demand and Supply still remain the same. Since sending fuel to yourself requires a sell and buy order, then with the previous version, if there are not enough people buying, you would be unable to send it to yourself anyways. Its super duper confusing, but ultimately this doesn't affect that heaps.

This change does disproportionately affect Tier 1 plots, especially those that aren't far into the progression

[modest hinge]

it affects the landowners, the context of this thread

supply actually will be lower with this patch, thats the whole idea

the "purchasing power" of landowners to travel is reduced by 75%

[sleek salmon]

Given that the feature allowing landowners to transfer their fuel to the Overworld is expected soon, the recent nerf significantly impacts landowners' ability to fully experience the Overworld. I, for one, was eagerly awaiting this feature and am now disappointed that I won't be able to participate in OW runs as I had anticipated. This feels unfair to landowners who are also potential players in the OW.

[split dock]

I am hoping the team/counsel sees this and takes it seriously. (Most) Land holders have been patient supporters and have already put up serious money to fund their own playing of the game. This money has already been spent by the team and it feels like we need to be honored for our up front contributions to the project. I think we at least deserve a town hall conversation over this as opposed to the current “nerf and ghost” strategy currently in effect. Please do something to show you care and are listening. No one wants the economy broken, least of all the land owners, but there must be a more respectful and elegant solution to all this.

[split dock]

I agree we can’t have knee jerk reactions to problems in the game/economy/community. This entire strategy to nerf land fuel was exactly that and we need to do something to roll it back. We are not trying to create a knee jerk reaction we are trying to roll one back before it does more damage. We can’t take sledgehammer to something as fragile as a complicated economy/game/community and that exactly what the team just did. We need to come together and discuss. We need to find a way to soften the blow of the team’s knee jerk reaction by adding conversation and nuance which is exactly what we are attempting to do here.

[sterile edge]

You do not need to look too far back in this Discord channel to find out quite quickly that a good consensus where everyone is winning, not just ILV token holders, is not a thing.
Well, good luck; Illuvium Labs are staying afloat (liquidity-wise) by screwing up your own loyal zero community once again.
This punch is, this time, the final knockout one - so well done if that has been your goal, mission accomplished.

[rough pebble]

@potent swan any traction possible for this idea if submitted or is it DOA?

[lunar carbon]

We don't know exactly how the sending fuel mechanism would work. But it cannot really happen without buyers anyways, so I am not sure it actually has an impact. Maybe I am wrong tho

[oak torrent]

if I get 4x as much fuel when I transfer to my OW account than if I sell on the market, I can make almost 4x more money by redirecting 100% of my fuel into OW and having a scholar farm for me so I can sell illuvials instead of fuel

if my team is paying effectively $2.5 to do an OW run and everyone buying from market is paying $10, and you can get an average of $7 of illuvials/resources from the run, that means my team keeps grinding for profit and lowering illuvial prices, while everyone buying from market loses money every run

which would require every OW player to own land or be a scholar, basically killing the economy and game

that said, maybe it's possible to use a 1.05x or 1.1x multiplier or similar when transferring fuel to yourself for OW without meaningfully distorting illuvial prices, as a way to incentivize OW players to buy land

[rough pebble]

Yep... i understand the concern. Setting a baseline for OW runs a Tier can do would be dynamic as production changes. Before the nerf T1 could do 1 s1/day. As demand rises and production increases along with demand, there will be less of a discrepancy between Land runs and fuel bought and used from market... until we are back to pre-nerf production.

While it will have an impact on OW economy it is unclear to the degree. Maybe a good portion of landowners just want to sell fuel or do a mix of both. Maybe OW players will jump into land market in order to get OW runs cheaper until fuel prod rises.

Either way, this proposal brings back value to land via sacrificing some value elsewhere temporarily until fuel prod rises again.

[analog blade]

what would you say would be the duration of this temporary measure?