#Fuel and Market Prices are falling. Immediate change needed.

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

spark elm
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If you think this is a major issue, please read and respond.

Market prices and fuel are falling hard. Along with illuvial land.

Reducing drop rates and capture rates, makes the game less fun and cost more. It is not helping prices or fuel use.

Waiting for F2P or people who can afford $10 to play is not the answer. Waiting for the other game aspects. Seems like a far time away and if market and fuel prices are destroyed by then, you won’t be able to bring them back.

The team needs to make changes now.

I’ve seen a lot of drastic ideas being thrown out there, but they all take large reworking of the game, which there is no time for.

What can be done?

  1. Put out details on how the airdrop is working. Don’t do the whole airdrop but keep it to the current month or make it bi-weekly, so you can make necessary changes when needed. People need a reason to chase the top of the leaderboard.
  2. Increase fuel usage and increase market prices. Seems hard to do right? FUSING is the answer. That was the whole purpose of fusing, to control supply. Fusing also requires lots of materials, experience and illuvials. If you make FUSING the most important aspect of the leaderboards, it will drive fuel usage and prices.

There is zero need to change the game. Just make FUSING the most important. Some will grind, others will buy on the market. Both of which will either drive fuel use or increase market price.

It's literally the reason why FUSING was created. It's just not being utilized.

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Once you have the other game aspects working with your own illuvial needed, then you change the leaderboard to make them more important. But for now FUSING is the key.

How:

  1. Make fusing milestones. As many as you can. Per tier, per stage, per holo, per dark holo.
  2. You can make some of them repeatable if you want.
    The more FUSING the more fuel and prices will increase.

There is obviously one big issue, what happens when stage 3 illuvial supply gets too large.

  1. That is a long ways away, so changes can be made before that happens.
  2. Burning mechanisms
  3. Creating a stage 4 illuvial, that can’t be caught but only fused using multiple stage 3’s.

I get it’s an issue but there are many solutions, ones that can be implemented when needed. Of course the team will need time to implement, but you won’t reach stage 3 supply problems for a while.

hollow stone
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Before the OB launch everyone was worried illuvials would be too expensive and they wouldn't be able to afford an arena deck.

Now that the game is out and we're playing it the prices are too cheap. I guess we'll never be satisfied... As for the fuel price it was always meant to drop, since we started at the top rail-guard...

I disagree with you to some extent. I don't think fusing is the solution. And I'll just make you one question to show you my point. Do you fuse bad stat illuvials? I certainly don't. Got too many good ones that I need to level up to fuse the crappy ones.

So the answer for this is to add additional burning mechanisms. Skin creation will require burning an illuvial if I'm not mistaken. But that won't be enough as we don't have demand for those skins as well.

What we actually would greatly benefit from and has been discussed in a variety of different threads lately is the implementation of illuvial combination. Where you can burn bad stat illuvials to upgrade/re-roll another illuvial's stat.

spark elm
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I’ve made many threads on increasing burn mechanism but those require implementation which could take a while. This is a fix now

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For prices. I’ve never agreed with everyone on bring down costs. I don’t think the answer is making it cheap for everyone. If it’s even slightly profitable or not super negative people will join at any price. The problem with being down costs is that there is no end stop. The lower fuel the lower to enter stages. Lowers marketplace prices. Which lowers fuel prices. This is a never ending cycle with nothing to stop it

hollow stone
spark elm
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It’s a supply and demand issue. You are not creating much demand with ever increasing supply

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I do really like the burning for rerolls. I’ve supported all of those threads

hollow stone
spark elm
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Sure we are early, but it's not about belief it's about reality. Web3 gaming is not huge right now. There aren't millions of players. There isn't a way to scale this to league of legends levels. You aren't convincing a Web2 player to create a wallet to make $10's of dollars or lose money.

No matter how good the game is and I think illuvium is one of the top Web3 games right now. It has the best graphics, it doesn't have too many issues or bugs, and has the economics (if used properly) to sustain for a while.

But the reality is there is a very limited audience for Web3 games

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You need to know your audience and the audience is Web3 gamers. And if you continue to drive the market, fuel and land down, Web3 gamers are not going to join. If you get it to a point where things are dirt cheap, gaining a few thousand new players won't move the needle at all. You'd need hundreds of thousands of new players, which is just unrealistic in Web3, unless you can make instant profits, which I don't think Illuvium should do, or wants to do.

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Fusing is not the ultimate solution. I agree that other burning mechanisms will be better in the long run. Fusing is a short term solution, that requires zero time to implement and would help the prices. It's not going to send the prices to the moon. But it'll stop the bleeding.

hollow stone
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but they'll come, once there's rewards for the arena leaderboard and all that stuff.

spark elm
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How far away do you think a realistic arena leader board with proper incentives is going to take? And if you let the prices drop too much then the rewards won't be worth it for P2E players

hollow stone
spark elm
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You'll have the same few thousand of us who already have our teams set playing against each other

hollow stone
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we have to let the prices drop to the point it justifies the interest to players in traveling to the OW, nothing to do there IMO.

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once the Leviathan games/leaderboards come online everything will change.

spark elm
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That's a huge assumption

hollow stone
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is it though? That's when demand trully starts kicking in.

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right now you have zero demand, besides speculation and those of us that love the IP already.

spark elm
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If it takes months to get there, and prices are pennies. You aren't attracting anyone

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And the game needs to be very successful to keep going, where do you think the team is going to get the money to keep developing Leviathan and the new games. Keep making new illuvials and such.

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All that requires money, which is driven by the market and fuel

hollow stone
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we rushed the launch and timed it bad with the markets.

spark elm
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Again another huge assumption

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I agree. I just want them to try and maintain prices instead of letting them fall. I don't think turning on Fusing is going to even double prices or fuel buying. But it'll stop the bleeding till Leviathan and other games. To just let it drop continual, hoping that leviathan or a bull market is going to save you is crazy

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Making Fusing more important on the leaderboards takes zero time and money, and it could possibly help create more demand for all materials, and fuel consumption. Maybe for those lazy might create a demand on the market for illuvials

hollow stone
spark elm
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So what's the harm in trying? If it gets people fusing, which requires fuel, gems, experience, illuvials, and essences. I don't see how it could hurt?

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Right now you have fuse all stage 2 illuvials for 20,000 points and all stage 3 illuvials for 80,000 points

hollow stone
fickle lotus
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Fuel prices were always planned to fall and not remain in the top rail. That is happening now.

The recent capture chance updates propped up tier 4 and tier 5 illuvial prices.

Many of us recommended adding fusing milestones to the next season so I think we can expect these to be there.

In the mean time, enjoy the low market prices and take advantage of them before we have the pvp incentives. Prices will likely go up then.

spark elm
# fickle lotus Fuel prices were always planned to fall and not remain in the top rail. That is ...

But fuel prices, capture chance and illuvial prices are all tied together.

If you decrease fuel prices, so it cost less to run a stage, more illuvials get caught and their prices drop.

If you lower the capture rate too much, which you did, it literally doesn't make sense to do runs, as you have a 15% chance to catch a tier 5 illuvial with a epic shard. Which means you'll have to use on average probably 5 of them to get one, which means it'll cost you $5-7 (not including the cost to run a stage 3). Using a resplendent shard to increase you capture rate to 65%, will cost you $7-8. Since it's cheaper to just buy on the marketplace you have less people doing runs and capturing them. Less fuel is being used, which brings us back to the above point, which lowers the cost to run a stage, which lowers the cost of illuvials and materials.

This is a vicious cycle that you can't stop.

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I hope you are right that pvp incentives are enough to drive demand, but most of us have our teams. I'm not sure you are driving enough demand to increase prices enough to make doing runs profitable.

hollow stone
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"If you decrease fuel prices", meanwhile fuel prices are going up thanks to them being pegged to ETH.

spark elm
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People are showing that they are almost getting what they bought as bonus, which means that people are listing for almost half of what is listed on the site.

hollow stone
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if all these years of investing in crypto have teached me something, is to invest in people instead of big dreams and promises. If there's one thing I trust is the Illuvium team I have full faith in them. We're in good hands.

spark elm
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Fair enough. I mean I gotta believe them too as I still have a bunch of land.
I think one of the strengths of this team is that they do listen. And there is so much right now in the feedback channel.

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I just thought this is a change they could make tomorrow, that requires almost zero time to develop. And it could help until some of the bigger ideas, such as burning for rerolls, pvp, and the other game types kick in. Which are all weeks if not months away

hollow stone
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indeed, it's one of the core strengths of this project is how much the team listens to the community and the DAO itself. Such a monumental difference from what we gamers were used to in web2 and big gaming companies.

spark elm
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I love all of those ideas, including transferring fuel straight from land to account, but as simple as those ideas might seem, this is Web3 and it takes a while to develop, test, and then implement. It's harder than people think. I think a little easier now that they have forced everything onto passport, but people really want that changed, which makes something simple actually quite difficult.

fickle lotus
hollow stone
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better yet is checking on Tokentrove. The prices are showing correctly there.

spark elm
fickle lotus
spark elm
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Except you can't see stats before you capture them.

heady kayak
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cheaper fuel price is the reason i start playing again.
The team had to do a patch on iz to ramp up production.

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what u feel right now is because the fuel price started higher then it went down because of supply from IZ and low demand.
if we had iz launched before OB, maybe u dnt feel it this much

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plus eth dumped, as u can see the top rail is beginning to crawl back up with eth recovery

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as for T4 and T5 capture rate, they are rare illuvials. before it was too easy because u can spam lower tier shards which make replendant useless. its more balanced now

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even with saying that, a decent deck is still costly. u need at least 2 T5 to make a decent one and it already costing so much

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a T5S3 weapon is still too expensive too

spark elm
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It's in there already.

It is early and they do need time to find a balance for prices (market and fuel) and capture rates.

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I think my biggest fear is that they wait too long. There are so many projects out there now, and people will move on quickly. So we can say it's early but how much time will people give Illuvium.

At some point they are going to have to show investors and the community that this game and their economics aren't just based on hopes and assumptions but that it will truly work.

They will have to show people that they can drive up demand while controlling supply.

hollow stone
# spark elm Except you can't see stats before you capture them.

You actually can, you just need to enter the encounter and right click + shift .

I really hope, since they released the game like this, that they don't go and hide the stats in a future update, that would really suck.

Would also love to be able to just see the stats from the get go when I scan the encounter without having to enter it and deal with the loading screens... More utility to the scan please, I'll gladly pay 10 energy for that!

analog panther
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🤦‍♂️

heady kayak
spark elm
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Thanks for the tip

dawn vector
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Game is in development, it's always been intended for Fuel to find a market price. It's actively happening now and that's good. Clearer UI needed for Fuel prices, sure. More sinks for Fuel, absolutely, particularly for whales. We should position our products to allow more spending of Fuel in a session, for those who want to do so. The reality is that big spenders comprise a massive portion of revenue for any game with a similar model, and it's our obligation to create ways for those individuals to spend Fuel effectively.

I'm pretty against any kind of direct intervention to make assets rarer or less rare or cheaper or more expensive. The economy will find an equilibrium, the main focus should be on continuing development of existing features and creating new features. Fusing could be part of that, absolutely, but it should be done because it makes the game better, more fun, more compelling. If a side effect of a change or improvement there reduces supply and increases prices, good, but the intent should be on improving gameplay, not on trying to manipulate asset prices.

Just my two cents.

spark elm
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I agree with you to an extent.

If you have time, organic slow growth is the best way to go about it. You aren’t creating huge swings in the economy and hopefully creating a long sustaining userbase.

I disagree that Illuvium can do this. The last burn report was from April, and they were burning through 1.35 million a month, with only $7,800 going to marketing. The team has said that even now, they are basically waiting to spend on marketing. For companies like this, the marketing budget could be more than all the other budgets combined.

The whole point of the airdrop system is a once in a project’s lifetime chance to bring in new users. They are not going to be able to give out 180,000 ilv tokens every 6 months. The airdrop system is already creating artificial demand for things, that prop up the markets to hopefully bring in new users. Do you think after the airdrops system, people are going to make every single suit and/or every single weapon in a tier?

The airdrop system is creating fake demand until the other games come out.

The closer you get to ending an airdrop system, the market takes a dip, as the ones who are only here for the airdrop start to leave as the return isn’t that great. After 100,000 ilv tokens get dropped, there is going to be a dip. As people leave, the market and fuel prices dip (usually hard).

The point is you have a very short window of the first 3 months of the airdrop to be bringing in as many new users as you can, so that hopefully even if 25% of them stay, you have a large sustaining userbase to continue.

Also, it doesn’t hurt to have a strong start, to keep the long-term investors happy.

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I will agree that my title for this chat is an overreaction, but I did that on purpose to have people respond. I don’t think turning on the Fusing missions/milestones is going to create a massive amount of demand that everything doubles in price. But it is very simple and would take the team zero time to implement. Even if it helped 25-50%, that would bring in a huge number of new users, which is the whole point of the airdrop system.

Also, if it props up the market too much, which isn’t great, then they can simply just take away those missions and milestones next month. It’s very easy to turn this on and off.

I’ll say it again, I think my biggest fear is that they wait too long.

The team decided to give out 180,000 ilv for the next 6 months. Which means they gave themselves a ticking time bomb to prove that it’s all going to work and bring in as many new users as they can.

I don’t want them to wait until prices are so low, that it’s hard to attract new users or we lose the whales.

dawn vector
# spark elm I will agree that my title for this chat is an overreaction, but I did that on p...

I will say that no one intends for things to remain exactly as they are now for the next 6 months. That's true for the airdrop structure and the game. There is no waiting, but there is a level of diligence required when making changes to the way the airdrop works. Extractive behavior from exploiters is a major issue that needs resolution, because it's compromising the airdrop for everyone else.

Being overly concerned about prices (specifically, asset prices) is a losing game. Fuel prices will fluctuate with demand, and as they reach an equilibrium it also creates more accessibility for Overworld and Arena, because the cost to acquire assets changes.

For now I'd just say be a bit patient - Everything is being evaluated and looked at, this is an active topic for council and Labs, and when there's something more concrete it will be shared for the community to evaluate. You're correct that we don't have infinite time to wait, but implementing the wrong changes would be even worse than taking an extra few days, and we're not so tight for time that we need to rush into anything without making sure it's going to be sustainable and create desirable incentives for players.

spark elm
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It's true being overly concerned about prices will lead to terrible things, but it is how the entire economy and probably very important to the success of the game, so I think it's also important to have a bunch of discussion around it. The team can take what we discussed and I think they will make the best decision.

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As for the airdrop exploiters, not in this chat, but I have discussed how fusing would limit multi accounts, as it'd be very difficult to multiple account fusing. Unlike say getting to arena level 40, or rushing suits/weapons tier 0. Fusing takes time, fuel and materials.

I have also pointed out that yes, this would however create more bots, which is obviously a negative. I just don't know how to prevent bots, as I'm sure there are some running right now that are rushing through stage 0, to get suit/weapons materials.

I think the more successful the game is the more bots you will get, so I think multi accounts is the worse issue right now.

Bots will help bring down the equilibrium, as they will catch more and bring margins down. Which is why I don't think fusing is going to bring a massive jump in prices.

heady kayak
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ur right we have to create demand.

  • arena leaderboard and tournament
  • repository
  • collection missions
fickle lotus
heady kayak
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no info on that yet