Silv2 disadvantage

[cosmic shard]

When we buy fuel for X price we now get a bonus, sometimes very big because of the people selling lower than current fuel price

That will continuously happen as people are selling lower and lower, even having trouble selling there

We can't get that bonus when buying with Silv2 though, only with ETH. I presume thats because fuel is listed in ETH currency

I dont know if its intended or not but it would be nice to fix it if possible

Here's an example of +70% bonus buying with ETH

[humble prairie]

We should incentivize ETH usage over silv2

[languid drum]

The vicious cycle of selling fuel has begun, so that when someone can't sell it at a lower price, they will sell it at a lower price. In the end, no one sold their fuel.Now it takes off-60% to sell

[mighty turtle]

i talked about this with the <@&814435151307866142> and they discussed it in a meeting.
maybe imc can update us on this?
i suggested for silv2 to use the market price not the top rail

altho i had some concerns with using market price

[mighty turtle]

Thats the issue with showing the average price instead of the lowest fuel price

problem with using market price for silv2:

• can the team update in real time the price fluctuation of ILV, ETH and Fuel?
• minor possibility of spoof orders to bring price down, buy fuel with silv2 at lower price, then cancel the spoof order

[plush olive]

Third bullet: people that buy fuel with silv2 get scammed for half their money without even knowing it

Buying with silv2 went from smart to stupid without any transparency. Silv2 holders that finally had some utility for their tokens are getting baited as we speak

[mighty turtle]

yea im forced to use eth now

[plush olive]

be happy that you know

web2'ing the fuel exchange wasn't a big deal 🤣

[mighty turtle]

some are on holiday ser

[pale lava]

I have not tested fully how fuel crates work, but if fuel crates also is based on top rail, it also has to use market prices. A fuel crate with a value of 15 USD, should give fuel worth of 15 USD

[limber sentinel]

The intention for upcoming improvements is for sILV2 price of fuel to at least be much closer to market price of fuel and not always at the top rail.

[plush olive]

Please send me 1 eth and I will have the intention to send it back

Nobody cares about intentions when you are trading

[limber sentinel]

This discussion is not about what is but what is going to be done. The currently implemented system is obviously not great. To help with the discussion I was able to say what improvements are already planned.

Hopefully my edit helped provide some clarity

[plush olive]

The current system is horrible. Anyone buying with silv2 is getting scammed and trading silv2 should be disabled. Whatever solution you provide with intentions or 'soon' is irrelevant at this point. Every trade being made in silv2 right now is stupid

Atleast make an announcement that people should be aware

And maybe apologise to people that used hundreds of dollars of silv2 to buy fuel just to get undercut by anyone who used eth

[cosmic shard]

Thank you for bringing it up jag

If its always at top rail its even worst

Market adjust to lowest fuel prices eventually so silv2 user are getting fucked very very hard, without knowing it as DMTG states

[mighty turtle]

yea im forced to use eth now

[simple patio]

IMO although we need to get rid of SILV2 this isn't fair for people who positioned ahead of time i.e claimed staking rewards in SILV2 to use in game. SILV2 should have 1:1 pricing parity with ETH on purchases.

[drowsy cloud]

You would think burning through the silv2 at a lower value would benefit the ecosystem overall. This is a disincentive for people with silv2 to spend it. Any approved currency should be purchasing at the same rate.

[mighty turtle]

landowners can create spoof sell order at a very low pricr, then buy lots of fuel using silv2, then cancel the spoof sell order

[limber sentinel]

Not especially easy to list very low. There is a moving percentage based lowest limit.

Plus some other ideas discussed for helping to prevent that too. Things like real eth sales needed for the sILV2 price to move.

[mighty turtle]

can u explain more about the moving percentage limit?

[limber sentinel]

When a player lists fuel to sell they can only list it so cheap. There is a limit to how cheap it can be. That limit is based on a calculation from the lowest listed price.

“The minimum market pricing standard”

I do not have exact info on it at the moment. But people can’t just list at any price.

[mighty turtle]

so much for a "free market"

so this is limiting the downward spiral

@sacred dagger can u please confirm that this is a feature to limit low listing?

[somber summit]

It's the same problem with the fuel crates. I still have some of my fuel crates left, but I refuse to trade them for fuel now because you don't get that "bonus fuel". They should have a buying power of X dollars. So why isn't a 15 dollar crate equal to 15 dollars in ETH?

[pale lava]

I also have almost all my fuel crates unused due to this. The fuel exchange system should be fixed for fuel crates as well. Now It’s more like a buying power equal to lower than 10 USD relative to ETH. I thought the top rail would only kick in if there was too much demand from players (to prevent landholders to set prices too high)… this is definitely not the case right now

[mighty turtle]

because its an airdrop?

[simple patio]

Should have top and bottom rails, I think that makes perfect sense.

[mighty turtle]

hmm idk how i feel about a bottom rail

i always prefer lower entry.
rn to have a decent deck with 2 x T5 gonna cost you $300+

[waxen crow]

The upside of giving some certainty for how low it can go is certainly a thing, most are still very incentivized to sell most of their loot, as they don´t know how low fuel can go with more landplots coming online especially atm.
In that sense free market is scary for asset prices, but if there isn´t enough demand to fill a certain price that scenario is also bad, who should decide which landholder gets to sell if they all list same price? Could go by time of order created, but if more and more don´t fill as demand at that price lacks storage won´t suffice, so potentially push back on that end.
Finding the correct price for gaming things to be bought is also insanely hard task, major companies often struggle with that, sometimes they sell close to nothing of a new thing in the game, then later have the same at a discount and sell lots of copies.

If demand is low as well, there is going to be lots of nfts created at that price to aquire them, but who would buy those/trade those if the overall demand is low, selling lower is a tough option, as there is an average cost to aquire at that fixed rail then.

The problem of price too low and that being scary is tough, but also the issue of what if people would be willing to pay at 10,20,30% lower than that rail e.g.
I think for now I´d want to see how thing stabilize with more land being online, as that alone would reduce lots of uncertantiy of upcoming fuel supply.

[valid eagle]

is this improvement planned to be finished during or after season 1?

[pale lava]

What about the case for fuel crates? A 15 USD fuel crate, but a buying power of less than 10 given the current system.. this can’t be how it is supposed to be?

[languid drum]

But I have to sell fuel at rock-bottom prices or my storage will fill up.I can't sell it at the average price

[waxen crow]

It is an order book, for you to sell, someone has to buy and you have to be the lowest price order at that time, that is correct.
A bottom rail wouldn´t change that.

[mighty turtle]

if demand is lower than the bottom then the landowners gonna have a hard time selling

solon bonus is at 130% rn

this is just one day after cold wallet integration

unless the bottom rail is so much lower then whats the point

[limber sentinel]

That’s what I was saying when the crates were sent. I tried to get confirmation on how they would be credited. But I’m remembering that I was always assuming a top rail credit.

[limber sentinel]

I do not know the expected dev timeline for it going live. But I assume asap

[somber summit]

It has also always been said that they are worth X amount of dollars. Why shouldn't they be worth the same amount of dollars in ETH? That was never communicated. Just like when people bought sILV, people were buying or holding fuel crates to get a good deal on fuel, and right now a $400 crate of fuel isn't even worth $200 in ETH. All currencies should have the same purchasing power in terms of their dollar value. Could you please take this to your next meeting or how do we go about sorting this out?

[pale lava]

I am a landowner, staker, and player, thereby part of the entire ecosystem. In my view i think this fuel exchange/top rail system needs to be reworked, and agree on your points. As someone with a masters in finance/economics, I find this fuel exchange system to be very non intuitive and non transparent. I wonder how the fuel price displayed on the website is formed? It is clearly not a free market clearing price, given that land holders are selling for less than half that value and the players pay a fictional price on the website. I thought the top rail would only kick in when demand for fuel exceeded supply, but now supply exceeds demand. I thought the teams reasoning for adding a top rail was so that landholders would not avoid selling so that prices went to the moon. Land holders are now selling for half of what the price is on the website. The real price for fuel should equal what land holders are selling for. Can someone please enlighten me on this topic?

[hearty niche]

• "I thought the reason for adding a top rail was so that landholders would not avoid selling"

Whoever thought that, and anyone who thinks the top rail is a good idea, clearly has no understanding of how Illuvium Zero works and doesn't realize that fuel storage is limited. Sure, they can stack their land plots with fuel containment units, but it's still finite, and they're losing fuel revenue by using those building spots for storage instead.

[pale lava]

So you agree with me then that it needs to be reworked. Free market should be best. I see the teams fear though about having like an OPEC situation with supply and price control ( but prob not that big an issue given limited supply, but can u not stack a million plus of each fuel? With like 100+ max level fuel containers? I have not gathered that much fuel during the betas so not tested

[hearty niche]

Yes I agree, A simple order book and free market would be waaaay better.

And yes they can stack containers but they'll also lose on their total fuel output.

[pale lava]

I don’t think you would loose out on fuel output, as far as I understand you can only have 12 of each fuel converter, and you are capped on the fuel extractors. Which means you only have like 40-50 ish buildings for fuel. U can have all those (without missing out on fuel output) and the rest could be power stations, resource extractors (needed for the fuel generation) and then fill up with fuel containments

[hearty niche]

well it depends whether you have stacked fuel converters generating passive fuel or not.

[open elk]

So can't we make it that landowners can't cancel an order for x hours so this isn't possible?

[mighty turtle]

we can. depends if we want to make this a "free market" system or not. landowners can use the order book as a storage too

[open elk]

Hmm yeah oke fair

[mighty turtle]

lol yea imo the "bonus" system is condescending. if i remember correctly the IIP that set this system wanted to make web2 players feel good about getting more than they bought, but the rn the bonus is more 100%.
the top rail is pegged to eth price.
i agree with top rail because it limit the price during the bull run, but i disagree with "bonus" system. i prefer showing the real market price. and landowners should be able to see the bottom too. i hope they change it to real order book system where buyers create limit orders too

[waxen crow]

You can´t use the order book as storage like the marketplace in the alpha, until sold it is on your land and you need storage space.

[hearty niche]

does it really limit the price during the bull run though? The price is pegged to ETH...

[mighty turtle]

depends on how they design the order book system. pros and cons.
if they dont take the fuel, theres a possibility of landowners using the fuel, then buyers may have insufficient amount error.
or they can block the amount listed like on cex

[waxen crow]

fuel listed as an order is blocked from being used in-game
that´s how it works currently

[mighty turtle]

its limited to some extend
im in the camp of pegging it to usd if we really want web2 adoption

prices can go silly in the bull run

[waxen crow]

you can boost all lands production (for a timeframe only?) and/or announce new landsale in that case e.g.

[mighty turtle]

like i said depends if we want to make this "free market" or keep manipulating price

we dnt need to sell more land if we increase production

[waxen crow]

I am unsure what keep manipulating is supposed to refer to.
There is a top rail, was relevant at launch, seems unlikely to be hit any time soon with lands being at a stage of selling fuel now.
Not allowing people to make orders for as low as they want prevents exploiting the order book system as far as I am aware, this isn´t manipulating a natural free market price-discovery.

[mighty turtle]

patch to change capture rate from shards.
the hidden moving average where u cant list too low

[waxen crow]

It is a game, it was always said there could especially in the early stages be balance changes.

[mighty turtle]

so u agree with my statement that we can manipulate prices. google meaning of the word manipulate

is it a "fair market" to impose a moving average to sell your own asset

[waxen crow]

Making better games, might make people buy more, might make price go up, as it is a supply demand price discovery. Less demand reduces price.
I guess you are saying make better games is good as it likely increases demand for a better product.

[mighty turtle]

sure we need to create demand

[somber summit]

Hey @limber sentinel sorry to ping you again, but you were the person from the team who posted the most in the thread and I don't know if you saw my reply with all the messages in the chat. It's just really important to me, especially since a lot of people are still buying sILV2 and fuel crates. I would just like to know if you will address the issue in the team or if we want/need to proceed differently?

[limber sentinel]

I posted something about it in a dev channel yesterday. I’m not sure yet what the response will be.

I do not ever meet with anyone. I just moderate.

Council has more meetings with devs than I do.

[somber summit]

ok thank you a lot! If you need any help or if I should post somewhere else feel free to hit me up.

Sry, to ping you too @waxen crow Since you are also discussing the topic here in the thread, maybe you can keep that in mind the next time you meet with the devs. It would be really important that we find a good solution for sILV and fuel crates.

[waxen crow]

It was already on the list😅.
Having silv2 be competitive with eth would make sense to me, as otherwise it won’t be used for fuel, but only for future products like D1sks or Landsales, which wouldn’t be ideal either I believe.

[lucid osprey]

well, thats part of the market no?
dont think we should influence that at any point, if price is low less ppl will grind ilz, prices go up again.

[mighty turtle]

yea bonus is at 170% rn
just have to let price bottom without a pseudo-bottom rail, let people who are still playing keep grinding.
and need to display the order book so landowners dnt get nervous and relist lower if their orders are not filled yet

[desert hornet]

Yeah the bonus is 170%. So you get 2.7x what you paid for. Just to make clear what we are dealing with :p was a nice suprise though when i bought some fuel.

[mighty turtle]

i just enough fuel for a spesific purpose, had to pull out the calculator lol

[pale lava]

Another way to look at is that the real price for fuel is around 30% of the price appearing on the website. Maybe it appears like you get more than what you paid for, but in reality you don’t. I would prefer seeing the real much lower price, and get the quantity of fuel I need

[desert hornet]

But then sILV2 does buy it at the displayed, high, values no? Isnt that the issue here?

So they should fix the UI and the sales to be responsive to market fluctuations in both eth and sILV2, and then this sILV2 disadvantage will be solved.

[pale lava]

sILV buy at this pegged price. Which in my opinion should not be pegged, it should move with the prices landowners set in my opinion. Then you solve this problem yes.

[somber summit]

ok thanks! I just wanted to make sure. I hope that fuel crates will also be taken into account.

[cosmic shard]

This topic was brought back in another discussion and now reading back wondering if i have to do an IIP i see that jag said that <@&814435151307866142> you discussed this

We havent heard anything from IMC or Team on this topic since then so id like to directly ask now

What are the plans, do i need to make an IIP or its already being addressed?

[cosmic shard]

<@&814435151307866142>

[neon kettle]

To the best of my knowledge, this isn't the intended functionality and is being worked on. Can't provide an ETA for when the fix might be complete though, or exactly what parameters it might have. Obviously can't just track the floor price of Fuel, there will need to be some kind of averaging over time (ex. the last week or something like that).

[cosmic shard]

Glad to hear its being worked on, thanks @neon kettle