#State of Ascendant

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

placid bison
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Let me start by saying that I really like what the team has done with Gauntlet and its current direction. The goals are clear, which makes me excited about its future.

However, I'm not as enthusiastic about Ascendant, even though it's my favorite mode. I preferred the previous version when we had augments in our deck. While I agree there were issues with the augments, removing them wasn't the right solution. The concept was solid, but the implementation had flaws.

For example, instead of having multiple augments with varying costs (20g, 30g, 40g), we should have a single augment for each type with a specific price tag. For instance, a meteor augment could be 100g, a verdant augment 50g, and a +100 health augment 10g. These are just random values to illustrate the point. Unique price tags would simplify balancing: if an augment is always played, its price can be slightly increased; if it's never used, the price can be reduced.

Comparing the two game modes, Gauntlet is easier to understand, with more RNG events, making it accessible for newcomers. Ascendant, on the other hand, should offer more control and opportunities for strategic decisions.

Reintroducing augments would enhance decision-making and reduce the movement of illuvials in the later stages of the game, because you would have a strong alternative to simply move everything. This approach aligns with our work on Gauntlet, making it similar to games like TFT, while Ascendant would be more akin to traditional card games.

alpine goblet
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I also loved augments. I think the available slots on a team were more balanced back then and augments truly were another skill layer to control

You could bring 1.5 team (1 team with 2 variations) while going for a lot of augments fire power for late game or you could bring in 2 total different team at the heavy cost of being limited on the augment side once you reached round 6+

Making augments price have a bigger range would make sense as long as the difference isnt too big. It can be a way of balancing but we should still balance their direct effect when needed to not get extremes and keep a balance between the non-legendary and legendary ones

As I told you in DM ascendant is planned to get completely rewored. I dont know what is the plan concerning augments, but I advise reaching out to Nyler to share this feedback 🍞

smoky inlet
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Guys, just out of curiosity, what would you rather Ascendant to become:

  • A mini Gauntlet for casual gamers with easy and fun to play dynamics with the RNG relevance that TFT/Gauntlet brings. (Casual Mode, like TFT but 1v1)

or

  • A more tactical game mode in which both players part from exactly same opportunities, they have more intel into opponent's turn to make informed decisions and RNG is only impactful in the way that players need to adapt to it? (Strategic Mode, like chess but in an autochess version)
alpine goblet
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I think the 2nd option fits more the 1v1 format

Although the tft/gauntlet like approach could work and may be an easy pick up, the less RNG and more strategic format in a 1v1 would make a better competitive game imo (taking into account we already have gauntlet)

abstract mortar
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Anyhow I'm with Patate, please don't turn ascendant into a mini Gauntlet.

stray kiln
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I believe with all the RNG in Gauntlet - having a game mode (Ascendent) with less RNG and a stronger focus on "Skill" could be a good idea. Early Hearthstone days were more skill dependent and then they added more and more RNG - this brought in more casual players and grew the player base enormously. So, even though I may personally prefer a less RNG based game, I believe most people would prefer more RNG. Because most people are bad at games and need a place to hide.

So, for me, the question becomes what is Ascendent trying to achieve? Mass adoption or Best strategy game possible?

smoky inlet
oak jungle
abstract mortar
smoky inlet
abstract mortar
smoky inlet
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Guys, keep in mind that everything I say is my own personal believe. But we need to debate internally and decide.

abstract mortar
#

that's somewhat interesting. But then again weren't players overwhelmed when they played on God mode in the private beta?

smoky inlet
abstract mortar
#

I actually like this! Give the games to the players. And if they want to compete in the leviathan for prizes they'll need to acquire the assets.

smoky inlet
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So the way I envision this, and again, it is my own personal opinion and it needs to be shared internally with the rest of the Game Design team. So nothing I say here is binding nor official:

My idea is:

You completely remove team builer, but then the gameplay is massively open, so you need to add a mechanic to give players something to narrow the playable spectrum in that specific game.

That mechanic is Ethereal Illuvials:

At the start of the game both players get shown exactly the same randomly generated illuvial lines always from the same tier. So one game you might get water doka, water grokko and fire atippo lines, and another game you might get beetle, terrorbird and squid line. Always same tier, completely randomly selected. This illuvials are the SAME for both players, so equal opportunity.

Now each turn you get to add to the board for free one of these lines or evolve them, so you would start with S1 of one line, then next turn you can either add another S1 from the two remaining lines or evolve to S2 the first selected line. This keeps going up to round 9, in which you will have all 3 lines at stage 3.

Additionally, each round you are offered 4 different augments of these rotating categories (affinity, class, composite, standard and legendary) but the augments you are offered are the same offered to the opponent. So both you and the opponent know what you can get and you will plan accordingly.

This is the nutshell of the idea, but there's much more detail to it.

stuck wave
# smoky inlet Guys, just out of curiosity, what would you rather Ascendant to become: - A min...

TBH i never played axie but i enjoyed streamers playing it and there were like minimum 2k viewers in that streamer i followed per live that also enjoyed that guy playing axie. The thing i enjoy was the guy explaining what he will do, checking the enemy turns and cards and telling the viewers what the possible thing to happen next. I enjoyed watching streams of that game unlike illuvium arena tbh.

smoky inlet
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I insist, this is just a prototype that needs careful consideration and thought. Just sharing with you cause I want to know what you guys think and maybe you can provide cool ideas to the mix that I will take into account to share with the rest of the Game Design team potentially.

median lark
# smoky inlet Guys, just out of curiosity, what would you rather Ascendant to become: - A min...

We need at least 1 competitive cybersport mode, 1v1 with bonding was interesting and uniq compare to all other games, now we have gauntlet (clone of TFT for now) but idk which one of those modes are gonna be the main thing. So

if you know how to upgrade 1v1 to be competitive and not predeterminated then it

if you know how to upgrade gauntlet to uniq mode then it

if you have time and workers to do both - do it.

But the main thing that we need a game to play, and playerbase!

alpine goblet
# smoky inlet We would be potentially removing ownership as in gauntlet, and leaving ownership...

I know nothing is set in stone but if we only have leviathan modes im worried all the illuvials with bad stats (nearly all illuvials) arent utilized

If its this way there would be an insane demand for good stats which would rise their price to a completely unreasonable price for new comers that want to compete

If people are forced to play with medium stats illuvial in a mode where stats matter it will make our game feel like pay2win which is not a good experience

smoky inlet
abstract mortar
alpine goblet
smoky inlet
abstract mortar
smoky inlet
alpine goblet
alpine goblet
smoky inlet
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Leviathan is P2W by definition, but if we want to hit mass competition, we need to have equal oppotunity for players no money involved. With both Leviathan and normal mode we cover both areas.

smoky inlet
# alpine goblet Does that mean we would play with 3 illuvials only?

Nono, 3 etherals acting as the spectrum narrower and then 5 illuvials lines + ranger that you can play with MP. Tiers and stages have contraints related to time progression in a match, so you can play a S3 turn 1. It would go like this:

Game start: Only Tier 0s.
R1 you unlock T1s
R2 you ulock T2s
....
R5 you unlock T5s

Illuvials would need to be one turn on board to be evolved to next stage. So you wouldnt't get T0s stage3 until R2 and T5s S3 until round 7. Time based progression.

lean walrus
smoky inlet
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There are players for everything. Some people join the ecosystem but they don't like OW, they like Arena, by removing ownership they can play for free and if they get addicted they can buy skins off the market place, if we force them to collect illuvials in OW but they just want to play arena they will leave.

It's a no brainer to me.

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Anyway guys, thank you for the chat. If you have some ideas for what I commented on my mode prototype feel free to DM me.

We need to internally assess what's best for the DAO and then make a decision from there. So maybe nothing that I said here happens.

alpine goblet
smoky inlet
stray kiln
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I like the idea of players drafting from the same pool. This could be very interesting and go in many different directions. Could be like Arena Draft in Hearthstone... where you are given 3 choices of Illuvial lines randomly in the beginning (first 2 or 3 minutes is just drafting) then weapons and armor. Could also have drafting rounds later in the game to adapt to what your opponent has. And yeah, each round you get to ascend x amount of times... removing the team builder from the equation and the ownership aspect is a great idea. I think there is something here.

frank summit
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As my professinal　business markethig opinion.
Survival,Ascendant,Gauntlet should be difference game concept as base plan.

Survival PvE. new player learning ILVautochess system and casual to play.
Ascendant 1v1.Target to TCG, Pokemon card. Use NFT make DECK. Deep tactics playing.
Gauntlet 8multhi. Autochess TFT Brushup illuvium strong point.

I feel bad Ascendant become similar Gauntlet.Player share suffer as markething.
Player compare and evaluate both game.

TCG market only in Japan is 80 billion yen each year.It's 548176000 USD just one country.

ILV need advertisement and markethig to connect TCG market.
Largely crypto people are "NOT gamer". They invest and trade crypto but they don't play a GAME.
Make sure who is the target and where is the market.(even land owner)

#

Fous Ascendant game design as TCG
I am just a gamer not a game creator.But,I study from Masahiro Sakurai on Creating Games.One of best gamecreator.

Problem now,
・RNG... always same deck win and doing same each game each round
・Pay to win...new player would not play
・Augment...unbalance some are too strong some are not

Verbalization
"You can experience a different gameplay every time, various decks are effective to win, and there are well-balanced Augments."

Reference from other games
pokemon card...deck suffle,environment card,coin toss,Strong action that can only be used once per game

TFT...Portal selection at game start(Portals with various types and effects),various types of augments

Game system for solving problems
Portal when game play choice a portal (ILV already have vote augment system)
ex.ranger have more HP (it's not finish R4) late game high cost deck meta
ex.hyper chage twice effect twice how to become a hyper
ex.give you mony more each round or less and stage up card
ex.portal effect 1 or 2 or 0 randam each game

point! any deck has a chance by portal

#

Strong action that can only be used once per game
Ranger can use Super power using money once at game 1PvE round change to pick Super power
ex.pay 10coin 30% something buff
ex.pay 5coin 20% enemy CC
ex.pay 6coin 50% team charge 10EN

point!player pay cost and return to win

I think it is necessary to adjust buffs and nerfs of illuvials.(empath,pion dead now)
But,Basically adjusting the game system is better.
I think it's a bad thing if the value of NFT suddenly fluctuates.

Strong part of ILV
Infinite placement possible with small hexes

more effective strongness
ex.Hypersystem for classes too and Hyperunit get more stronger
Player need more Placement strategy

@smoky inlet @alpine goblet

ornate valve
# smoky inlet Guys, just out of curiosity, what would you rather Ascendant to become: - A min...

Personally, I'd prefer if ascendant is only tweaked and not completely overhauled. I enjoy being able to create and use a fun team on demand.

We do need to spice it up a bit, to avoid stagnant metas and repeating matches. In my opinion it can be done through weapons/gear tweaking as suggested here https://discord.com/channels/760344898200666112/1267044450736148500

If we apply more stats and effects to the weapons/armor, especially giving different tweaks to different illuvials, of different stages, you can essentially have 5-10 weapons in your deck that completely change your game plan based on the current match.

north basin
ornate valve
# north basin 2nd sounds better but generally mixed feelings. But in any of those cases, would...

In the crafting rework thread, I suggested crafting price to be lowered at least 10 times down and introduce more stats and RNG into the items, so that even though it's cheaper to craft a single item, the urge to keep crafting to hit the perfect roll can easily outpace the current amount spent on crafting . It will be more like a casino or old arcade games with coins. You pay a small amount, no profit guaranteed but there's a chance you craft a 5$ item and sell it for 1k$ if it rolled the perfect stats. The lower quality gear will be cheap and more accessible to everyone, while the best ones will be mostly for whales and leviathan competitors.

north basin
ornate valve
hidden dome
smoky inlet
hidden dome
ornate valve
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Ascendant is the 1v1, gauntlet is the 8 player new mode, leviathan is the version of both that utilizes the stats and lvl of the illuvials. You probably mean gauntlet, not leviathan

#

Even og is confused.. smh

hidden dome
# ornate valve Ascendant is the 1v1, gauntlet is the 8 player new mode, leviathan is the versio...

Yes ascendant is the 1v1 without genetic and levels, Leviathan is the 1v1 with genetic and levels

My point is that there were no Leviathan games a few days ago when I tried to find some but there were Ascendant games (maybe also because there's no Leviathan milestones)

If there was no Ascendant mode then we would have played Leviathan instead

Therefore Ascendant is draining Leviathan's playerbase

If everybody has to play Leviathan to play 1v1 there would be more games in Leviathan than if we have 2 1v1 modes

It was more exciting to play with our own unique illuvials when Ascendant was the equivalent of Leviathan in testnet

I suggest removing Ascendant

alpine goblet
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A lot of people including me wanted/want to play leviathan but its not incentivized and theres no one playing so we cant

Im sure if the airdrop had milestones for both we would have players in both

ornate valve
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Even tho it gave me brain dmg, sota may be on to something. Originally non-leviathan ascendant goal was to be more f2p friendly and more competitive for the normalized stats.

But now that gauntlet serves that purpose and esport has been pushed back, maybe there is no point of non-leviathan ascendant and it should be removed for 1 less queue 🤷‍♂️

hidden dome
ornate valve
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4 queues eventually, for a playerbase of not even 100k, further split by MMR and brackets,is a bit much

ornate valve
hidden dome
gray lintel
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I believe a 1v1 game mode with regular ownership of assets is a good thing.
Should it be hyper p2w like leviathan I don´t think so.
Should it be chess, I don´t think so either.
The last and in my opinion current ascendant Arena is just very high rng, higher than gauntlet or TFT or comparable games, as you have these incredibly impactfull, easy to spot coin toss or dice roll events, that have very high impacts. E.g. Which affinity will my opponent play next/swap to? Which side will they play? etc. Very low ranked players see and understand these, there is also a high time window for considering options. With blind teams, you just add more uncertainty on what could happen, but do nothing about these fundamental low skill high rng situations.
(TFT is arguably rather low rng, as there are so many random events, that making consistently good decisions far outperforms being less lucky than the average opponent who makes mistakes with while having "good rng")

I agree augments in teams were a good thing they to some extent counteracted some of the rng flips, as people could powerlevel check the opponent at some point at least when they did the low skill, cheese swaps of units/positioning very frequently.

I think the fundamental concept of Ascendant was fine, just the turns should be reworked into smaller parts to allow players more decisions in smaller batches (additional options for more smaller decisions that matter would obv be great, that would get closer and closer to high skill games like TFT), which allows for more mistakes to be able to be made, that also matter. The last time we played in Betas, small mistakes rarely had any impact, as swap side, or swap team or leg augment rng outperformed most of the mistakes.
I had pointed out the same feedback before in more gameplay related details e.g. here #1256893047422189649 message

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I also don´t believe in the give entire game free to players option, that supposedly would onboard web2, as other web3 games are doing that and it has little to no impact so far.

Web3 adds ownership into the digital realm, that feature should be embraced not hidden, it is a positive change and again a feature, further ownership based games have a working track record and are growing year over year for about 30 years (TCGs). This is not a new idea, this is putting something that works in the physical world into the digital, which so far has been a very positive innovation whenever it happened.

ornate valve
abstract mortar
gray lintel
abstract mortar
ornate valve
gray lintel
abstract mortar
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I wouldn't call it a scam, it's top tier gameplay with ownership and stats counting and rewards.

#

If we want adoption we can't gate games behind NFTs

ornate valve
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Your account got hacked or not catching the trolling lol

abstract mortar
gray lintel
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Obviously my comment was satirical from the perspective of someone who doesn´t want to engage with NFTs in games. When we then tell that person those NFTs do nothing to their gameplay, this so far hasn´t seem to reduce their concerns, rather add to why does it even exist when it does nothing?

ornate valve
abstract mortar
ornate valve
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How so?

abstract mortar
gray lintel
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I don´t think reducing the use case for Illuvium NFTs would be good overall.
If you offer people more game modes that are entirely free, not many would want to engage in they payed ones, why would they?
You also severly reduce the value of Illuvials, that don´t have high stat modifiers.

abstract mortar
gray lintel
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I don´t think I made any assumption there, currently the value for Illuvials with low stat mods and levels would be to be used in ascendant Arena. There is no burning mechanism outside of fusing them into higher stages to also be used in ascendant arena.

abstract mortar
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it hasn't been 2 weeks and we already have nearly 300k illuvials. We don't have demand for these many illuvials even if we require NFTs to play Ascendant.

gray lintel
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The supply of T5 and T4 Illuvials would be what "gatekeeps" player numbers for Arena, I´d have to check recent numbers, but I believe less than 400 could currently have a Team that uses 2+ T5S3 Illuvials.
Your 300k number also includes T0, without those it is 93k atm, more than half being T1s.
There are many very common Illuvials and people have fun catching many in stage 0-1 runs, that doesn´t gatekeep the amount of players, we´d need far more T4 and T5 so support high player numbers for Arena and upcoming games even.

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Not saying there should never be any kinda option to burn NFTs, but it doesn´t seem like a solution to anything short term, similar to how saying future games will give value compared to current ones doesn´t do much short term.

abstract mortar
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Yes I'm thinking long term, not short term.

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In the short term what we need is player acquisition. And that would come much more easily with free games they can have fun and get hooked.

abstract mortar
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You're going into the OW capturing illuvials, taking into account their stats, just for it all to go to waste in the Ascendant mode. It doesn't even feel right to me.

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and this is not just the arena. The OW F2P gameplay/progression is pretty bad...

gray lintel
abstract mortar
gray lintel
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Leviathan is also not ascendant arena.

gray lintel
abstract mortar
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yes but ascendant it P2W as well if you have to own the assets, just not as much.

abstract mortar
gray lintel
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If you want to phrase it that way, yes any game that ask you to own assets is to some extent pay 2 win.
A tremendous difference is between there being many fungible useable Illuvials and there being the need for max stats lv 60 ones.

abstract mortar
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yes I agree they are very different levels of P2W.

gray lintel
abstract mortar
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that's just my 2 cents. All I want is what's best for this project.