Stat Rerolls, Seeing Stats Before Capture, Illuvial Value

[topaz yoke]

I would prefer no stat rerolling/improving--that said, if it must be added then here's my thoughts. If you add stat rerolling for simply solan, it feels like a cash grab to players. Meh. Bad for branding imo. No gameplay involved. Boring. But I do like the idea of burning ONE indentical Illuvial (same color/stage) for 10% increase in random stat. This will give low stat illuvials a purpose and drive people to collect lots of extra illuvials to sacrifice on the alter of stat sacrifice. Should help move market and reduce supply of illuvials.

Other issue: You can preview stats of the illuvial before trying to capture them on the battle board by right clicking and pressing shift. Before the recent patches, you had to pay the encounter cost to see the stats. Now that encounters are free to enter, they are plainly visible even without paying for them and most players don't know this yet, so they are capturing illuvials with bad stats that they could have ignored. Players are also entering the instance, seeing the stats and leaving the instance if bad stats.

Also, it seems like you should be able to preview stats on scan screen. But this is bugged. Is this intentional?

1. I want to make sure this stat preview feature is intentional, and if so, then stats of illuvials should be on the capture screen as well so player make informed choices of if they should capture or not.
2. Discussion: Do we want to keep this feature in the game as it is?
3. Is stat rerolling for sure going to be added back to the game? I personally really dislike the idea of paying to reroll stats. Here's why: if you can't reroll the stats, then it forces the player to hunt and hunt for illuvials with the best stats in the wild. This drives fuel cost usage, and it provides an insanely reward gameplay loop for the players.

[hollow horizon]

1. I think its intended and its fine. I tried hunting down all the mjoll to search for good stats but its so rare and still time consuming that i stopped. I dont think its bad to have this

2. 100%, it would be fun to also be able to left click on the illuvials on the left to see their stats

3. As long as its not +ev to reroll i think its a great way to monetize and add another layer of gamble into the game

[rotund sundial]

It does make capturing more and more and more illuvials pointless if u can just reroll

[keen crag]

1. I enjoy seeing the stats in battlefield pre fight. if the stats actually showed when you scan the illuvial orb, the 10 Ergon credits seem fair for the hunts sake.
   I also agree that the stats should remain visible when choosing your capture.

2. Error fixes for a frame that is already there would be perfect.

3. I feel stat rerolling should be limited to S3 Drone upgrades and it should cost as much as it did preseason 2. so much time and valuable material just to get an unwanted stat can be aggravating. I agree with your argument otherwise.

[topaz yoke]

Exactly. Make them get better stats by searching and capturing, using fuel. Better monetization strategy than straight rerolling, which isn't gameplay at all.

[topaz yoke]

I think searching for one specific illuvial with good stats would be a bit tedious, but searching through whatever illuvials spawn into your run for valuable ones is more fun if stats are set in stone and can't be changed.

Being able to see the stats inside the portal is arguably more important. Maybe we can see the stats before going into the portal if we scan?

[keen crag]

the function is already there. its just ...not... functioning.

[topaz yoke]

Awesome. Learned something else. That's the kind of thing that should be in an advanced tutorial then.

[keen crag]

thats why i was mentioning fixing errors in the frame would be ideal.

[topaz yoke]

Gotcha. Didn't see your message at first.

Yes, fixing that and adding to final capture screen after battle would help a lot.

Good call on drone stats reroll. Those are a pain in the ass to make and hella expensive to make too. The reroll makes sense there imo.

[ivory kettle]

Good to know that it's already there and just needs fixing. Didn't realize that either.

I believe it's intentional for it to be visible prior to capture so should just make it clearer. I don't know if I love the idea of stat reroll from within OW personally but I'm not married to it either way, especially if it's a fuel sink to reroll like Patate said.

[keen crag]

What amazes me: You can't see modifier stats in Team Selection, when building a deck..you have to memorize the serial..?

[ivory kettle]

ah yeah, that's another pretty obvious QoL thing we should update.

[topaz yoke]

Yes, we need to see lvl/stats in Team Builder. We also need dark holo/holo to show up in PvP matches. I want to show off the collection obviously.

@primal badger @dense jay Have we confirmed if stat rerolling will for sure be implemented again? I think this is important for people scouting illuvials on the market. Why would anyone ever pay large amounts for good stats when we might be able to reroll stats again for $2 or something. Would appreciate some communication on this front.

[polar meadow]

I think what we need are stat upgrade. Burn 5 same illuvials, with same specific stat to increase said stat. ex. Burn 5 ramphyre with same health stat 10% multiplier to increse to 20%. Burn 7 rhamphire with 20% multiplier to increase to 30%, and so on until max stat. With this we have another way to burn illuvials and increase illuvial value. If illuviatan players want max stat illuvial then they need to pay insane amount of money in the illiviadex. If people want cheap max stat then they need to find it in the wild.

If illuviatan people have same max stat illuvials ( which obviously good for the economy) then they need to win games with better strat and skills.

And if you have 5 illuvials (same iiluvial) with same 10% multiplier of attack, health and defense then those 3 stats will increase to 20% multiplier.

[topaz yoke]

Interesting idea. Not sure if I think its a good one yet. I’ll have to consider it. Could be a good way to give more usefulness to lower stat illuvials.

[primal badger]

We haven't decided what will go into the reroller or the prices, but I almost definitely want it to live in Zero

[topaz yoke]

Okay, sounds like the team is planning to reimplement a rerolling illuvials at some point.

Do you have any info for us on what it might look like? I believe it was 250 solan to reroll during beta? Does that price increase for higher tier illuvials? I think it's important that it does increase in price to protect the value of high tier illuvials that were found in the wild (i.e. T1 Illuvial is 250 solan to reroll, T5 is 1250 for example). When you say that rerolling illuvials will live in ILV:Zero, you mean that Overworld players will have to send their Illuvial for rerolling the stats to a land owner to run on their plot? Like a training building or something?

I think my main concern is market pricing of high stats Illuvials would likely crash hard if rerolling is cheap and unlimited. This would probably piss off anyone that spends money on these high stat illuvials that then crash in value. I just want the team to keep this in mind when designing the reroll feature if it does get implemented to be designed in a way that the protects and brings value to the Illuvial collection as a whole.

[primal badger]

Rerolling will not be cheap. But I also think we make it a free market. Possibly costs lots of fuel to be able to make the rerolling machine on your land plus also fuel to provide the service. That way we can keep the costs from going below a certain amount (keeps it premium) and people can build their re rolling machine (clearly im not the naming guy) to be optimised in a certain way. ie some will upgrade their machine to provide higher attack, or health, or omega, so if you've got a high dps unit you will use someones reroller that gives higher attack or energy damage.

[topaz yoke]

You mean like training one specific stat to be guaranteed to be better/improve. Or would it just be assigned a new random number between 10-50%?

[primal badger]

Higher chance of one stat becoming higher than others.

[polar meadow]

How about this idea sir. Stat upgrade. Burn 5 same illuvials, with same specific stat to increase said stat. ex. Burn 5 ramphyre with same health stat 10% multiplier to increse to 20%. Burn 7 rhamphire with 20% multiplier to increase to 30%, and so on until max stat. With this we have another way to burn illuvials and increase illuvial value. If illuviatan players want max stat illuvial then they need to pay insane amount of money in the illiviadex. If people want cheap max stat then they need to find it in the wild.If illuviatan people have same max stat illuvials ( which obviously good for the economy) then they need to win games with better strat and skills.

[mighty ivy]

I don't think it should be a guaranteed upgrade. What if you could lock stats by burning lluvials and reroll the other stats? Example: You have a Gyro that has 50% attack damage and 50% attack speed. Of course you want to keep these stats but reroll the rest. You would then have to burn 2 gyros to lock the two stats. Of course, this wouldn't guarantee that the other stats would be upgraded, but you wouldn't lose the good stats. If the gyro is then better and you want to improve it further, you may have to burn 4 gyros because you only want to optimize 2 stats. This would also give value to weaker Illuvials, as you always need some to reroll. Especially t4 or t5 Illuvials of a higher stage would always be needed and they would have a use even with bad stats. So you wouldn't feel so bad if, for example, you catch a Titanor that has no health and no resistances.

[sullen linden]

I believe being able to check stats without spending erhob energy and therefore being able to spend more of your time for more efficient runs is a good thing.
Gives players the option of doing quicker runs getting more nfts in a shorter time period or getting on average more valuable ones spending more time. That’s a basic concept in most games.
I think rerolls for stats will be a good addition if price tag is high enough to make leviathan accessible for every whale who wants to play, if there would only be a very limited amount of perfect or close to perfect stats Illuvials the game modes might be less attractive for whales as they maybe can’t even get the things they need to compete, because not enough exist.

[topaz yoke]

Very good point about not enough total good stat illuvials for leviathan. Just needs to cost a pretty penny to improve the illuvial. Maybe also a timegate. Like 24 hours for someone to reroll that illuvial on their land.

[polar meadow]

More reason to upgrade stat and burn useless illuvial. There are plenty of those right now and i feel like OW players are not earning just spending money unlike Zero people

With reroll and tying it to zero, OW players are again not prioritize.

[sullen linden]

There are no useless Illuvials, they can all be used for ascendant Arena, stats are normalized or will have cosmetic effects in Gauntlet.
Further they can all be used in future games.

[topaz yoke]

They just seem kind of useless to a overworld only player. But they definitely have more use cases that will help them hold value long term as more players come in and play arena/gauntlet

[polar meadow]

Lol. Some ascendant player are catching it rather than buying. Supply are increasing day by day hence becoming useless. Those future games are not like magic it takes years, how many supply of illuvials will have b4 those games. Lets see if skins are enough for burning those weak illuvials. I feel like it will not be enough, burning illuvials for increasing stat will definitely make OW players happy

[sullen linden]

I am not sure about that, you would likely directly lower the value of high stat Illuvials that Overworld players can catch, as you would increase their number and availability.
The stat reroll feature has only been talked about in combination with a high cost, to not dilute the number of high stats Illuvials in an easy way.

[polar meadow]

Why?i dont see the logic. By further increasing the stat of those already high stat will further increase the value.

[topaz yoke]

Because currently the only option you have is to catch the high stat illuvials in the wild

[cedar reef]

I don't think you should be able to see the stats before capture at all. The whole point is capturing and not knowing how good/bad it is. Plus they have to spend a shard to find out which is good.

I don't mind paying for rerolls as long as it has a reasonable fuel cost. EG, you could re-roll 5 times and still get bad stats, but it has now cost you the same as buying a copy of the same illuvial

[main agate]

I'd rather burn the same type of illuvial to reroll stats 😛

[main agate]

Naw, it's all about leviathan

I think stats should not be visible until post-capture. Then stat reroll is available via the fusion terminal (or within zero like Kieran suggested) you can fuse 3 for a stat reroll

If in zero, landowners can then take fusion/re-roll request which take time and, once processed, they take a portion of the fee?

[reef widget]

@dense jay we need this 🙏

[topaz yoke]

This is what I had expected things to be like. Admittedly though, after playing for 2 days with knowing what the stats are ahead of time--it is still taking FOREVER to find high stat illuvials. Given how rare they are, I think showing the stats on the scan window pop up makes the most sense. Still takes time and effort to shoot the illuvail to be able to see each set of stats. Great time sink, and immediate reward for the player even if they don't go in for the capture.

[reef widget]

it also adds value to the scan. Saves time from entering/leaving the encounter and getting back to previous teleport beacon.

[topaz yoke]

all these loading screens to go into the battleboard to see the stats is beyond annoying

[lament dove]

Its either show stats before capture or have shards not break on fail.

Not knowing stats and losing your shard on every fail is too extreme.

There's a limit to how much bs a player is willing to accept.

[topaz yoke]

I feel that. Especially given how expensive runs are. I would like to see stats before trying to capture I think. I just want all players to fairly see them.

[gloomy herald]

I think the team is looking at the numbers and seeing Land is probably the Dark Horse that brings Illuvium to the masses?

[topaz yoke]

They want to bring value to the land owners. They don't want to under deliver value anywhere if possible

[lost prairie]

With re rolls, it should show the new stats and give the option to apply or stick with the old stats.

[reef widget]

why do we even need re rolls though? Stats are the core of the OW game loop and we're just going to destroy that for what? Profits?

[lost prairie]

Doesn't need to be fuel can be like for like Illuvials. Fuse another Ramphyre into another to re roll stats for example. Sets a premium for re roll and burns Illuvial supply. Allows people who manage to get a holo or dark holo to re roll stats but at a high cost.

[reef widget]

I made a thread a while back related to that. https://discord.com/channels/760344898200666112/1262892177906860062

IF it comes with a burning mechanism then I'm more inclined to see some usefulness in this .

[lost prairie]

Agreed, any additional utility for low stat Illuvials and as such reduction of supply and otherwise dead assets is good.

[reef widget]

hunting for good stat illuvials is the OW main appeal. Let's not destroy that please.

[main agate]

What if we made it where you had to get a certain type and number of essences (or gem) for increasing stats?

Example:

T1 S1 Illuvial needs to increase movement speed from:

0-->1 = 1x T1 Haste Essence (or gem)
1-->2 = 2x T1 Haste Essence (or gem)
2-->3 = 4x T1 Haste Essence (or gem)
3-->4 = 8x T1 Haste Essence (or gem)
4-->5 = 16x T1 Haste Essence (or gem)
5-->6 = 32x T1 Haste Essence (or gem)

T1 S2 Illuvial needs to increase movement speed from:

0-->1 = 2x T1 Haste Essence (or gem)
1-->2 = 4x T1 Haste Essence (or gem)
2-->3 = 8x T1 Haste Essence (or gem)
3-->4 = 16x T1 Haste Essence (or gem)
4-->5 = 32x T1 Haste Essence (or gem)
5-->6 = 64x T1 Haste Essence (or gem)

T1 S3 Illuvial needs to increase movement speed from:

0-->1 = 3x T1 Haste Essence (or gem)
1-->2 = 6x T1 Haste Essence (or gem)
2-->3 = 12x T1 Haste Essence (or gem)
3-->4 = 24x T1 Haste Essence (or gem)
4-->5 = 48x T1 Haste Essence (or gem)
5-->6 = 96x T1 Haste Essence (or gem)

Each tier would require their tier of essence.

This gives so much value and sustainability to the need for harvesting that, I believe, would be a game changer for Illuvium.

[reef widget]

that's actually another idea that has been thrown around in the past, but it was regarding to fusing. https://discord.com/channels/760344898200666112/1236096708182802522

[main agate]

Ya I don't like that for the fusion. The fusion mechanic I think is great as it is and, if you don't get lucky, THEN essences can be used to upgrade illuvial stats 🙂

[reef widget]

yes I agree, I don't want to change the fusion either anymore.

I must say I'm a bit addicted to gambling holos

but then again related to the essences I don't think it's a good idea. They already have plenty of use case now that you need them for the gem crafts, and gems being required for the fusing process.

[topaz yoke]

This is an interesting idea, hum... would give a great use case to the harvestables, and would provide growth for only one stat at a time. Would drive essences economy as well.

I still like the idea of Illuvial stats being set in stone with no rerolls or training them at all most of all. Make rare stat illuvials stay rare and difficult to find imo. Make people spend fuel to find them.

That said, I like this esssence idea much better than paying solan to reroll illuvials since this also motivates players to go on more runs and actually play the game, rather then just push a "reroll" button.

[main agate]

Illuvial value increases as it is being injected with the value of the used essence. In addition, catching a near perfect illuvial essentially "saves" you money if you are going for a perfect illuvial. We could also require gems/fuel as part of the cost too.

It does balance out the ecosystem of illuvial worth though. Perfection is not such an extreme difference in price than imperfection. HOWEVER, from what I'm guaging, stats are not for all. Leviathan seems to be a niche part of arena. I hypothesize that just having a "set 1" illuvial may in itself become super rare and be the true value and the stats are just icing on the cake.

I mean what happens when you no longer can catch set 1? Wouldn't you want to be able to make all your illuvials perfect? It keeps the grind going.

I'd be doing this DAILY if this mechanic was live.

[reef widget]

IMO stats are only niche now because very few know what's coming in the future and are collecting them beforehand. Don't get fooled. Stats are the biggest driver of this market. Selling prices show that.

Introducing stat re-roll takes away from the OW.

[main agate]

I think stat re-rolls may; however, my idea actually encourages harvesting runs. Again OW is kinda split into 3 categories. Mining, Harvesting, and Hunting. My idea just encourages Harvesting more (and possibly mining if we include gems as part of the cost)

[reef widget]

yes that's true BUT 2 out of the 3 categories tend to zero since it will always be present. Illuvials from set 1 once the set ends there's no way to catch them ever again.

[main agate]

Technically you can, it just may be a .00001% chance of spawning/catching success.

But I don't get what you mean...."tend to zero since it will always be present"? You mean the price for the essences and gems you predict will go to $0? Not if you provide a large enough sink for them.

So actually my idea also helps fix this problem too right?

[reef widget]

yes not literally zero but very cheap, that's what I meant.

do we not want the resources to be cheap?

[main agate]

we want to always be increasing value everywhere so the perceived value is high enough to motivate people to pay for fuel to go into the OW

[reef widget]

hmmm... The value comes from the illuvials not the other assets IMO.

[main agate]

@dense jay could we have your thoughts on this and the following conversation downwards? #1268346105264082945 message

[main agate]

If a $5 asset is used to on a $25 illuvial, wouldn't that make the illuvial now worth $30? I'm confused

[topaz yoke]

Stats also make a big difference for just general overworld gameplay, and I think it could make a big difference in future game titles. Like if they release a battle royale with illuvials, illuvial companions in the overworld, or whatever games they develop.

[reef widget]

you collect plants because you need the essences to craft gems to fuse illuvials and to help you win battles more efficiently having more/higher chances to capture illuvials.
you collect ores to craft your drone upgrades to increase your efficiently in capturing materials and mainly illuvials or to craft weapons to help you fight battles against illuvials.

[topaz yoke]

You also collect plants for their buffs, xp bonuses, etc. When I collect for this purpose, I am stacking hundreds of essences currently.

[main agate]

Ya I don’t think there is anything wrong with giving more reasons to harvest (or mine or hunt) 🙂 Again if i just choose to hunt, I still get the luck that I don't have to increase stats "as much"

[keen crag]

This is why stats need to be available on pick screen. 2 holos. 1 has perfect modifiers, the next only has a small leaf toward resistance...but now i don't know which one it is..

[reef widget]

I agree, you can only differentiate them by level for now...

[lament dove]

https://tenor.com/view/cray-lost-it-gone-mad-going-mad-stressed-gif-5502030

Lost an almost perfect Cow
due to this cuz both were Lv1

[reef widget]

yeah it's horrible when they're both the same level and you only have energy for 1...

[reef widget]

I just thought of something I think would be cool. You would only be able to see stats if you scanned the encounter. What do you guys think of this?

right now the scan is a pretty meaningless feature. This would add great value to it and help further increase player's agency and gameplay options.

[main agate]

Make scanning cost more then 😈

[reef widget]

pleeeeease no

[keen crag]

the issue is: There is an option to see modifier stats in the scan(caps lock to initiate cursor) which makes the 10 energy worth it. But.... its not functioning currently

[reef widget]

the team said it wasn't supposed to be in the game and it was an issue with the UI team. Which is concerning to say the least.

I also think we should have the option to see stats when scanning before entering the encounter AND in case we scanned the encounter then the stats would also be visible inside the encounter. But if the encounter wasn't scanned the stats could not be seen at all until you capture the illuvial.

[keen crag]

the only time i use scan at this point is if my memory is too shot to remember which illuvium I shot where. Conserving as much energy otherwise. But I agree. without modifier checks, the 10 energy is useless.

[reef widget]

depending on the run I'm doing I do scan sometimes to check how many stage 3's there are in the encounter to see if it's worth the XP.

[topaz yoke]

Do you know how much more XP a stage 1 vs 2 vs 3 is?

[reef widget]

with no ringnuts?

stage 3 varies wildly depending on the enemy teams you face
but without using ringnuts stage 1 usually gives 1k and stage 2 gives 3k XP

[keen crag]

i think you mean flintcaps. Ringnuts save SAN.

[reef widget]

ah yes flintcaps, my bad.

the ringnuts also lets you do more battles per travel but yeah

[topaz yoke]

I mean the XP for Illuvials stage 1 vs stage 2 vs stage 3. I am guessing there is some kind of XP calculator that is used. I wonder what the values are.

[reef widget]

if you mean the XP formula it's here:
#🎮〕illuvium-overworld message

[topaz yoke]

What does MP stand for in the equation @sudden leaf

[reef widget]

mastery points

[topaz yoke]

Yeah, so a stage 3 tier 5 illuvial is worth WAY more XP than a Stage 3 Tier 0. Good to know!

Very balanced way for the team to do XP. I like it.

[proven canyon]

Stat rolling can be balanced by increasing the cost per roll after each reroll. The first roll could cost 100 and each roll could increase it by 100 infinitely. This keeps the value of good stats high and makes training a dark holo to perfection possible but really expensive. If rolling is expensive a choice to keep the old stats is a must to prevent rolling feeling really bad. After you see the new stats you rolled you get to see the 2 stat spreads side by side and chose the one you like more. A choice to roll a single stat and keep all the rest as the same could be interesting too. Having a building that only rolls the attack stat would be a good reason to have different rolling services.

[reef widget]

I don't like that idea of illuvials having to have a stat rolling counter attatched to it honestly...

[proven canyon]

That's fair. It could definitely be off-putting. Thematically it could be something about integrity and instability.

[topaz yoke]

yeah, not a fan of having reroll counter

[keen crag]

But we are all a fan of having this work, yes? maybe turn the mistake into a happy accident?

[vital cliff]

how about burning same tier illuvial(becomes mats)
mats+fuel to reroll stats and should have a limit per illuvials how many rerolls and increasing per reroll
also having the option to keep or change

[median cypress]

I used to want stats reroll
But now that i payed premium for better stats i dont want it anymore
I still have mixed feelings about this

[fossil needle]

Someone will be hunting these one date - getting a complete DUD illuvial is like getting a PERFECT STAT
It's like people collecting random items in games (Runescape played collecting BURNT food)

BURN ILLUVIAL to reroll would be good 😉 Introduce mechanic to burn, while also helping buff other illuvials

[keen crag]

No that is an image of a scan in OW. ALL illuvials show the same blank modifiers if you scan in OW, because its not working correctly. My argument is fixing this, making the scan worth the energy.

[reef widget]

Why is it good to trivialize good stat illuvials?

[median cypress]

After i payed so much for good stat illuvials i don't think i would want any stats modifications anymore
A good way to burn and improve owned illuvials would be for capping the levels, and unlocking higher levels through burns
The illuvials get better with levels, while you leave the stats alone

[reef widget]

I think just burning illuvials for substance would be the way. And substance can have many use cases.

[fossil needle]

Any Illuvial can be useful, but everyone is looking for the best stated illuvial.... better the stats, better the illuvial.

Any added advantage will be key in Leviathon and can shape the battles

Substances is good also since this can be used for leveling, blueprints, stat rerolls and stuff in other games we haven't even thought of yet 🤔

[plain goblet]

😀