How to Fix Survival Mode

[worn musk]

To start off, I want to say that Survival Mode is one of my favorite modes, and I had a lot of fun playing it until the live version. Survival Mode should be about finding solutions to problems you don’t already understand. The base concept is really good, but now that there is a lot of potential for earnings, people have started sharing their progress. Consequently, it has turned into a mode where a few people solve it, and then everyone else copies their strategies. In my opinion, this takes away all the fun from the mode and also makes it easy to abuse for free points. Here are my suggestions on how to fix this problem:

Introduce RNG Elements to Ensure Variety

To maintain fairness and enjoyment, RNG elements should be added to ensure variety in each run. I’ve heard discussions about making the waves different, but I don’t like that approach. Uncontrolled RNG can be unfair because it’s out of your control. Instead, consider adding random augments. For example, players could choose from three random augments every fifth round. This adds an element of gambling, which most people enjoy, and gives players some control over the RNG. It also increases replay ability, as players will look forward to getting a good augment that could help them win. Additionally, it will make it harder to copy other players’ strategies.

This may not be a perfect solution, but it's easy to implement and will definitely help with people copying other players’ setups. I also believe it will make the game mode even more exciting and fun.

[little gyro]

Thank you for sharing your idea @worn musk

I also disagree with the random waves idea. 2 years ago, when survival was highly competitive amongst the small player base (believe it or not), this idea was thrown around and rejected as it would make it very much unfair as some waves are naturally 10x easier or harder than other ones. It would be a total RNG fest

There's no perfect solution but the random augment sounds like the best one. While augments are random, the fact that you can choose and that you get one every 5 round makes it much better than random waves

Augments are also less impactful than a completely different waves while making a big enough difference that you cant blindy copy screenshots and videos

<@&814435151307866142> @odd meadow Tagging you because i know you are exploring a current solution to keep survival in the airdrop

[odd meadow]

The perfect Amount of RNG will always be difficult to gauge. I could say that randomized augments might not be enough. usually you just need 2-4 key augments to boost your hyper carry. you go to wave 5... didn't hit. Restart and repeat up to wave 5 till you get the correct ones.

The point of my proposal is to eliminate the ability to share screenshots on positioning and team comp and reduce multi-account abuse. I don't think your idea is not enough to eliminate that.

There is another idea to this and that is to have wave structures that only stay for a set time period(A couple hours or so) then rotates meaning screenshots/guides would become obsolete quickly. The ability to multi account would be limited.

My personal favorite path forward would be to have periodic tournament times where everyone will have the same start time and wave structure with limited time to compete. Players that get the furthest with in that time are rewarded. You have the tournament time rotate through out the week so everyone has a chance to participate regardless of time zone. We talked about these ideas on the game council a long time ago. I imagine they could still be implemented but at what dev cost and roi?

The dynamic wave solution was brought up by Kieran and actually surprised me that he felt they could get it in for next season. I imagine its easier and faster to implement then other solutions. And I think it can keep the game fresh while also improving the integrity of the airdrop structure.

I also love survival mode. Spent 1,000s of hours on it. its what hooked me into the ecosystem. But in the end it is not a revenue generating mode right now and until it is I don't think it should use dev resources. Maybe a proposal for a Survival leviathan mode could gain some traction.

But I am holding off to see the Levithan Gauntlet mode to see if that will really be the catalyst to help us grow.

If that fails then I would like to push for a turn based ascendant mode. This would be a better representation of survival mode but pvp. We could have the precision of positioning instead of just flipping side to side with mirror decks, there would be deep planning several rounds ahead if you should hold mastery points for interest or dump to deal maximum damage. There is a lot of potential there that I think would be worth more then pushing the pve mode.

[little gyro]

What if you only start to get augments on R12 and then every 4th round?

This would remove the start over until i get one right on 5 concern

For ascendant we will see but the team is already onto something for a rework. Im sure it will be good!

Or on 16 and on all subsequent checkpoints, something like that

[river seal]

not sure we want ANY randomness that would make the run easier to a player as opposed to another. So imo it's either complete different Decks and waves, or no change at all.

This said, Survival does need fixing and i'll happily join the discussion to see what we can find.

The main issue remains the fact it is so easy to copy paste, but the "JPP" is also still very strong.

first middleground I see is to have 10 sets of different waves/decks every day. each Player is randomly attributed one for the day. This doesn't solve the issue but reduces somewhat the RNG fest while slowing down the copy-paste spread.

Another option I see is to add randomness but only in the illuvials placement. this can make waves occasionally harder or easier but keeps the difficulty in a potential acceptable range and makes Screenshots not work, or not as easily.

Also ADD HANDMADE POSITIONNING patterns . tired of the same exact slots being used. this will increase difficulty and reduce the JPP.

not sure if there are other options...

[little gyro]

Im not a fan of randomness either tbh

Another option I see is to add randomness but only in the illuvials placement. this can make waves occasionally harder or easier but keeps the difficulty in a potential acceptable range and makes Screenshots not work, or not as easily.
That actually is a very interesting idea. Would require a small amount of work everyday but it would be make it very fun

[worn musk]

I agree that my proposal won't eliminate the issue entirely, but it will definitely make it a lot better, and it's an easy solution to implement. Adding 3 random augments every 5th round isn’t something that would take much effort from the dev team. I also agree with the strategy you mentioned, where you can restart at wave 5. However, even if you hit a good setup, there’s no guarantee that the next one will be good enough, and it will definitely be a lot harder to copy. The time investment required to try to abuse the system would be much higher, thus reducing the number of people trying to exploit it.

Your approach likely has a higher chance of reducing multi-account abuse, and I agree with that. But in my opinion, it could make the mode less fun and more unfair. It might turn into more of an RNG simulator rather than what the game mode should be about.

Having different wave structures could be fairer, but the downside is that it might significantly reduce playable game time. It could take 1-5 hours to achieve a really good run. How would you then structure the waves? They can't be too long because then players can easily copy strategies, but at the same time, players need a window to have multiple attempts. If you’re not there on time when a wave structure starts, you might not be able to take part. This creates a hindrance without adding any positive aspect for the player, so I don’t think this is the right approach.

I could see players liking the third suggestion. It’s similar to the previous one but rewards players for being there on time and could incentivize a more competitive environment, which I think is great. However, as you mentioned, it’s much harder to implement and would require a lot of extra work to maintain.

I’m not a developer, so this isn’t my area of expertise, but I don’t see how adding random waves is much different from adding random augments.

Haha, funny enough, it was actually the game mode I spent the most time on as a new player. I felt it was a good way to learn about the Illuvials and their strengths.

[worn musk]

I guess this is a matter of preference. We have Arena, where there is currently zero RNG for people who prefer it that way. So why not have a mode with RNG to attract a broader audience? Many popular games incorporate RNG, and as I understand it, Illuvium has been drawing inspiration from TFT and also aims to attract some of their audience. One of TFT’s main keys to its success, in my opinion, is RNG. Sometimes there isn’t a perfect solution to a problem; you just have to go with the most likely best outcome. You can’t completely eliminate people copying others without introducing some form of RNG.

If you give everyone different sets of waves that are RNG-based, isn’t that what you said you wanted to avoid? Randomness could make the run easier for some players and harder for others. This would mean that players who get the best set of waves will likely always get the highest scores. If you get a bad set of waves, there’s nothing you can do about it. This could lead to players feeling punished for getting a bad set of waves and make them less likely to play the game mode.

This suggestion still involves unfair RNG, but in my opinion, it is a better option. It could still significantly affect how hard a run is, but the risk of how big the difference would be in terms of beatability is lower.

I'm not sure if you referenced this to solve the problem or just as a suggestion. If it's a suggestion for the game mode, I do like it. It would create some variance, which is beneficial, in my opinion.

Nice to have you in the discussion. Throwing out ideas is good! 🙏

[river seal]

so my issue with random augments as opposed to random positionnings is how big the difficulty range can change. If I have a ramphyre with no good augments for it it's one thing, but If i have a Ramphyre with Crit Amp and starting Energy or survivability it's a completely different game.

This is also my issue with Arena btw. I don't like the random augments idea at all. I was Challenger in TFT so I just know too well how big the difference is between "Ok-ish" items and perfectly ideal items, and that's even more true at the beginning of a game where obviously nothing is balanced.

But i'll give it another thought run over the night and let's let other people discuss the matter too to see what arises from the discussion

[worn musk]

Yeah, I agree that the range can be much larger. However, one aspect is more within your control than the other. So, once again, I guess it comes down to your personal preference. Adding arguments also increases the skill ceiling, allowing players to determine what works best in each situation.

Does that mean you didn't like the RNG of items and arguments in TFT? If you take it away, the game becomes more repetitive and less skill-based. I believe, as I mentioned, that it's one of the keys to its big success. I played Dota Auto Chess first, then Dota Underlords, and then Teamfight Tactics, so I have pretty good experience with the auto chess genre and the different ways developers approach it. I can say it's not a coincidence that TFT came out on top by far. Making a game repayable is one of the biggest keys to success, and without RNG or variance, that's really hard.

That's a good way to approach it. Having an open discussion and being willing to listen to others can lead to new perspectives 👍