Love the new feature with auto scan of the map but...

[west schooner]

would like to see updated icons so that with a quick glance I can know which one is holo...dark holo.. and tier without hovering over the icons.

[visual ruin]

I think that would be too much and make it too easy. I'm hesitant whether it's a good idea to have auto scan at all-

[gaunt sandal]

Not a fan of this feature at all, I think it breaks the hunting game as you will always prefer to save time and check where the good illuvials are than exploring with the hope to find something interesting...
Even if I understand the logic around "whales prefer to pay to get their assets quickly" it makes Overworld look more like a slot machine than a game 🫤

[kind bane]

It is a loot box

[plush pulsar]

I like auto scan too, I think is a good way for monetize the game. It gives some advantage to player who invest money, but it is something that a free player can do. However, I have a problem. Spawn rates are so low that pay for auto scan is not worth. 1 of each 5 runs has an Illuvial Stage 3. It means that for getting something worth you have to invest so much, and personally I'm not going to use it.

[hollow granite]

Maybe color code the icons for tiers and stages and and outline for holo or dark holo.

[simple spear]

Leveling is far easier now that the enemies are not all low level anymore, you can catch couple s1 or s2 and get the exp for s3s quickly.

[plush pulsar]

How is that related to what I said?

I correct my numbers: 1 of each 8 runs has an illuvial S3.

[simple spear]

You can capture s1 or s2 illuvials, gain experience and get s3 Illuvials that way, you dont have to capture them.

s1 would likely be very irrelevant if s3 are common.
So if you want s3 to be common you also want s1 to be irrelevant.

[short citrus]

Playing my 3rd round with this feature and it truly is. No idea why that much time and ressources have been put into so much detail when in the end such features are put in place.

It's basically taken what the cheaters did and putting a pay wall in front of it.

[plush pulsar]

I don't want Illuvials T3, I just want to complete capture missions

[simple spear]

Ok, but I don´t think the game should be balanced around a capture mission.
Further if you struggle completing it, so do others, so the total amount of points will be smaller and you get the same rewards anyways.

[plush pulsar]

What are you talking about? xd I'm just saying auto scan is useless because it almost never appears something worth to look for. Normal Illuvials can be found just walking through the map without the need of spend 1.350 Solon.

[simple spear]

Yes you find the same loot if you walk around.
If you scan you save time.

You before seemed to complain about not finding stage 3s, I simply stated that it is good for the game that you don’t, as it makes the lower stage ones you find frequently relevant.

[static peak]

If you are going to charge for a scan.. Make it a flat rate across all 3 stages.
Should consider an option where you buy scans on the fuel exhange.. $15-20 per scan, paid in ETH

[kind bane]

yea it kinda cheapen the immersion. Maybe this feature shouldnt be available right after people start playing. Kinda have to unlock it first

[somber jungle]

We went from nothing, and now u want to take it to absolutely no thinking required.

I LOVE IT! hahahaha

[kind bane]

maybe pay additional 500 solon

[proud shore]

Pay 4 convenience. I like it 😄

[simple spear]

The difference on that is like 30 extra secs 😅
At the point of people wanting this I´d be more for updating the icons than wanting to charge more.

[kind bane]

ngl im addicting to the auto scan

will pay more for insta tele

[prime locust]

little by little we're destroying what actually makes OW a game and turning it into a farm simulator. Now that the auto scan feature exists, it just feels bad playing without it. I'll pay double the price everyday for a much quicker run and to be sure I didn't miss any rare illuvial.

[proud shore]

I think whats important here is there are options for each individuals preference on how to play this. Whales want to skip all that pay a bit more. Purists wants to enjoy and play it normally theyre not forced to pay up for additional stuff. In the end, DAO generate more revenue while keeping separate groups happy

[prime locust]

purists = poor. I'll say it again, the fact that these features exist makes it feel bad to play without them. It's just a reminder that you're not a whale.

[tranquil cobalt]

i don't think you can totally seperate those groups from each other.
One who can't afford some premium features always feel like he is missing out.

[kind bane]

my suggestion is to gate the auto scan
so people need to play a bit to unlock it
because we want immersion but after hundreds of runs it become tedious anyway

[prime locust]

if you don't know where the illuvials are you have to search every inch of the map to be sure you didn't miss any rare illuvial. It saves A LOT of time knowing where all the illuvials are and just going straight to what you want.

I'm paying double the price to travel but that saves me up to 3-4x the time that would normally take me to complete a region.

[prime locust]

I actually like that idea.

[proud shore]

I'm not disregarding that people will feel that way or what flow mentioned. People will always have their opinions on this. But objectively, what they're missing out on is the speed and convenience. Non users of the feature will still be able to explore and engage with the illuvials. What the feature boils down is time.

[tranquil cobalt]

yes... Time... the most valuable thing in the universe 🙃

[proud shore]

That's why people pay a premium

[prime locust]

efficiency is output per time

it's more efficient to pay double the price, if you're hunting for rare illuvials

[tranquil cobalt]

i'm not denying that there are many people paying double for that feature.
it probably gets even to a standard price in the western world people just pay... like it's almost a price increase looking like it's just voluntary

[kind bane]

https://discord.com/channels/760344898200666112/1261879593522954342

[kind bane]

important question is why would we pay double when cheaters can do it for free

[prime locust]

you pay for not having the risk of getting banned.

[kind bane]

i have seen no evidence of cheaters being banned tho

the announcement is saying they are still working on it
and we had a scripter saying his accounts were not banned

[proud shore]

Different issue altogether but at the same time the fuel purchase is an indicator for who's legit and who's not. At least that's how I see it lol.

[prime locust]

yeah it's a never ending battle against exploiters.

[proud shore]

Labs shared they banned people. Though I doubt it's at a level where the dao is satisfied with. So there's still lots of improvement.

[kind bane]

na told me he got 500 ilv, idk if hes bluffing but based on the announcement i tend to believe him

[prime locust]

I would like for this feature to only be available after the player travels at least 50-100 times to that region.

[kind bane]

yea something like that.
WoW and FFXIV require players to discover the whole map before enabling flight

[simple spear]

It really is not, because it isnt 1v1, it is 1v100 or 1v1000 people.
The 100s or 1000 or 10000s of people, per scan user, not using this will acquire assets as well and they will do so far cheaper.
So the one paying extra could buy same assets of the marketplace spending even less time and less money, but would have no gameplay attached to it at all, which some don´t like, they want to play, but maybe not the version that takes far more time to get Illuvials.

[simple spear]

That doesn´t sound like a trustworthy source, as he is someone who has personal grudges and had been saying many things in the past and then never took the escrow bets or similar that people offered to stay behind his words.

[tranquil cobalt]

wild assumptions...
what if 90% of DAU uses it or even all.
What if those who don't use it don't discount but rather get a bigger profit

[prime locust]

you seem sure of it but I think you're undervaluing what the price of a rare illuvial will be. Double the travel price is not that big of a difference. One rare find and you pay for 10-20 travels.

[simple spear]

this isn´t 100% true, latest wow expnasion gave you budget flying throught the story of the new expansion.

[simple spear]

You need a buyer for this rare illuvial.
Why would someone spend 2x when they could hire scholars for far less than 2X for example?

This is a quality of life thing for whales, if runs are net positive on average people will hire scholars.

[prime locust]

come on that's not a valid argument. We're expecting an healthy economy with lots of demand. If that's not the case then the game will eventually die...

[kind bane]

which expansion

[simple spear]

the latest one dragonflight, gave you dragonriding which was budget flying but did the trick

[tranquil cobalt]

so we developped a feature for whales which whales are actually not using?
Everyone just hiring scholars now?

[simple spear]

Again, others get the same thing, for half the cost to aquire.

[prime locust]

half the cost but it takes waaaay more time... Why can't we agree on this simple principle. It's all about efficiency.

[kind bane]

i havent played it, maybe because the expansion says flight. idk how the map is too, maybe needed.

[simple spear]

A quality of life feature for palyers doesn´t have to be a roi positive one.
You were arguing this feature would harm the economy, I layed out how I don´t think your logic checks out, in the sense that this isn´t a roi positive feature, it is pay extra for quality of life while playing.

[tranquil cobalt]

which you afterwards said noone would pay (use it) because he would rather hire scholars instead (which likely use the not so legal free version of that feature)

[simple spear]

You see this as a 1 person vs 1 other person, but that won´t be reality, the vast majority won´t spend 2x or w.e. number will be final, so even if you are 2X fast (still gotta fight and fly etc.) or more than 2x faster if you skip spending your energy. There will be far more players who together get the same assets likely more of them for a lower cost, so they can sell those for a lower cost and still profit. Making it incredibly unlikely that this feature would result in you being able to profit of using it on the marketplace.

[simple spear]

No these are 2 different things.

1. Someone wants to be roi positive and save time, hiring low income country scholars seems like the common sense and commonly used method. (can they be roi positive is another question, but this seems to be what you and filow assume)

2. Someone wants to play the game but in higher quality of life version.

[prime locust]

yes this is true IF the majority doesn't pay the double price.

[prime canyon]

It's not guaranteed that is will be double price. It is now on the testnet, but Aaron said this feature will be expensive. I expect more than double price to come on main net.

[simple spear]

Well if the majority does, the ones who don´t are to win even more, as the majority of assest is aquired far more expensive.

[prime locust]

I would like to be a progression for this feature. Maybe it starts at 10x and the more you travel to that region the cheaper it gets.

something like it decreases 0.1 per travel and after 80 travels you're only paying 2x the normal price.

[tranquil cobalt]

i would argue that those who really wana play and enjoy the game (your 2)) and don't give a shit about roi wouldn't use that feature, because the want emerse in that world and actually fly arround, looking for illuvials and stuff.
And not take that premium, fly straight to 2 encounters and shoot the rest of the energy in ores next to the big deposit to immediately be able to start another run.

[prime locust]

and I can even see this being skipped by actual whales where they could pay a really HIGH amount to lower the multiplier cost instantaneously without having to play. But it would have to be something expensive, and thus for whales. Not just double the price.

[simple spear]

Some people want to play games, but don´t have lots of time to do so, but would still like to progress in the game.
This is very common, as gaming is far more mainstream and many who grew up with it 1-2decades ago now have families and well paying jobs.
Not catering to that demographic seems unwise, as most games do that and have success with it. Further lots of these save time and still progress options are outsourced to boosting, buying accouns, having others play on your accounts in web2, a feature like this simply includes it in a way that DAO and Stakers profit of it instead of 3rd party economy as well.
It also makes it more accessible compared to in theory TOS breaking options.

[prime locust]

I want the game to cater to those demographics and whales as well, but I would like we didn't break the gaming aspect of it and simply turn it into a pretty pack opening.

[simple spear]

You still have to fight and win fights ()with as few mastery points used as possible, preferably). That is the major strategic gameplay part that takes skill compared to running around, which mainly takes time and some basic mechanical skills.

[tranquil cobalt]

yea totally, so you have 2 groups of those.

1. those who really wana enjoy the game itself which again won't use that cheat
2. those who will use scholars, buy illuvials of the market, use cheat codes (that feature but for free)to progress faster

[simple spear]

You don´t only have 2 groups of players.
You have players who spend 8h+/day, others spend some on a weekend, others spend 1-2h/day and many between.
Some will play Stage 1 runs, some will play Stage 3 runs, some inbetween.
Some will min max for roi, some will just play because they like the game and do inefficient things.

[prime canyon]

I don't spend a lot of money on games but seeing the prices of available boost packages in games in general always amazes me. It shows that people are willing to spend a lot - for me, absurd amounts - for convenience features.

I think for the right price, this scan feature has more benefits than downsides. We can't expect a ton of people to play right from the start so it is important that the ones who do have options to spend more. And normal players will just have to adapt to the changes in market conditions.

[tranquil cobalt]

i didn't say that... 2 sub groups of your very specific group mentioned in your post.

[simple spear]

Let me clarify further then.

You said people who want to "really enjoy the game itself, won´t use that cheat".

How do you know that? Certainly some people are these diehard oldschool gamers, who want everything to be difficult and grinded for, others want it to be far easier and they don´t mind spending money for easier even if it isn´t economicly smart. Spending money in most games is for entertainment purpose only, and people spend 2x or 20X or 200X on getting items or characters faster anyways. Many people with different points on how much money for how much convenience is worth and how they would enjoy playing the game.

A very simple example could be some people used to play pokemon games without internet or help by books/magazines or similar, others had way more fun if the book told them were and how they can catch something, others maybe payed their friends to trade them or farm/level for them even, other bought things on ebay.
Some even had most fun using cheats in the old pkm games.

[kind bane]

the auto scan need to include nodes and plants

[tranquil cobalt]

Let me clarify further...
I'm not talking about convenience features are bad.
I'm just not a fan of this very specific feature.
Also it seems that it not really get's implemented for convenience but rather to give everyone the option cheaters have.
Which actually makes implementing that feature worse. Before those cheaters used a hack to be faster, now they have a hack to be faster or save money depending onto who you compare it, those who don't use that feature or those who will pay for it.

[simple spear]

I don´t think it is up for discussion that people acting nefarious which includes using features without paying for them is something to be avoided.
But to conclude this then you don´t like the feature due to this possibility and not necessarily because of any of the previously said arguments regarding economy worries without cheaters not paying for this?

[tranquil cobalt]

what? No, why would other arguments not be relevant anymore?
I don't think i mentioned my economy "worries" in this thread... what are you actually reffering to by this?

[simple spear]

For example here you implied people using the feature would potentially have an economical advantage.
In your last message you mentioned implementing it so people don´t have a disadvantage vs people who recently exploited things as well, I understood this as economical advantage.

I refered to other points being less relevant or under a caveat, as I understood you were speaking from a pov of people can abuse this and use it for free which obv shouldn´t be the case and it should be prevented and or punished.

[tranquil cobalt]

i didn't imply anything, just pointed out that your whole pov is on assumption that just a super minority uses that feature
and those who don't use it necessarily sell their assets cheaper than those who would use it.

[simple spear]

I do not think it is an assumption, that people who acquire assets cheaper can sell them at a lower price and turn profit or have lower loses than people who pay more to acquire the same assets on average but faster.

Even people speedrunning it up to Stage 3 (via marketplace?) farming with scans compete with people who find T5s and Stage 2s in Stage 1 runs.

[hollow granite]

This is -EV gambler feature, for people who want to hit big by finding dark holo rampfyre or something while the market is hot. Using it doesnt really mean you will hit anything that good any time soon, as people had unlimited eth in ob and increased rates and still didnt get any dark holo T5S3. By the time you find something that is worth bank you already spent that amount by overpaying for this feature.

[true nacelle]

I think for most people we wouldnt use the feature, youd be overpaying a lot. So I think its a good thing for everyone that some over-spenders have this option and will be getting the same illuvials for double the price. Not sure this means its over all good, given it does take away from the experience, knowing you can just auto scan, the fact it exists has an effect on the players view of the game whether they use it or not.

If the goal is to have a premium option maybe have it reveal the rarest illuvial or 1 of the top 3 rarest. Or some other idea that doesnt just make it a almost literal pack open. If the goal is to combat cheaters than maybe thats another story. In saying all that im torn if its good or bad overall haha

[kind bane]

there should not be a debate whether offering convenience can affect the whole experience of a game.
it is very obvious that it will.
dev design a game for players to fully explore and immerse the game.
a convenience like WoW's leveling boost was offered later in the game's life

one of the reason i dnt play any gacha game anymore is because i will lose interest after i bought OP gears

[short citrus]

What about the cheaters who are diluting the supply and screwing everything up - I would instead focus on fixing that than implementing such insane features, which give everyone a cheat who hasn’t the script for it by simply paying a premium, which cheaters do not need to do.

We also learned that the Illuvials, once caught by the cheaters, aren’t flagged or banned since everything will be on a chain.

This is genuinely screwed, and the masses will run away then instead come and play and give it a try when everyone can pay2win, basically with legalized cheats offered by IlluvialLabs / DAO.

[kind bane]

OW is so beautiful and well detailed
it is sad to see Grant's work not to be experienced in full immersion

@cobalt fractal how do u feel tho

[prime locust]

I guess we're entering a discussion phase where we need to take a step back and define what a good game actually is. Pay for convenience features can be good for a game when done right. But when done poorly it absolutely trumps player progression and the feeling of accomplishment for those who grind the game hard without using these features. Pay for convenience destroyed the meaningfulness of WOW progression system.

[kind bane]

anyway AC is selling Map Pack for $5

[tranquil cobalt]

you were implying that people who can aquaire assets on a lower price would sell them at a discount, which no one does.
Everyone or every company sells it's product for max margin in this case for the same price as someone sells his asset who paid double the price.

[tranquil cobalt]

aren't you the guy who wanted to turn it into a 1 click loot box experience? 😄

[true nacelle]

well we dont know if the feature is because of this. And I think we are overestimating the cheaters, appears they arent even doing better than a lot of us in terms of airdrop (unless a lot of OG players are cheating too). Someone referenced na saying he got 500ILV, 100% a lie haha. I agree with you though needs to be addressed and possibly this feature isnt a good look

[kind bane]

as a degen yes
as a gamer no

[prime locust]

IMO double the price is not premium enough to deter players from paying for it. It's 1 travel for the price of 2 and you can plan your energy expenditure a lot better when you know what you're getting before hand.

[tranquil cobalt]

so is this a yes or no? 🙃

[true nacelle]

im all for premium / convinence options just suggesting maybe other options are better

[kind bane]

well im here for the money so yes

[true nacelle]

oh just read that again, you are against the feature @kind bane ?

[prime locust]

the degen still hasn't figured out that if we don't make a good game he won't make money

[kind bane]

i support this feature
in fact i strongly encouraged kieran to offer it when he talked about in the the early access channel

[true nacelle]

why say this than

[kind bane]

because i understand from both side of the argument

the biggest issue is
and im quoting kieran, a botter can already scan it
might as well offer it

[tranquil cobalt]

you have to do it for free if you wana beat the botter

[true nacelle]

its doesnt solve it, only brings everyones attension to the fact people can do it for free

no one will feel good about knowing somone can do it for free but they have the option to pay

[kind bane]

yea im leaning toward offering it for free because of how bad the botters are

[prime locust]

this feature can be good if implement along with a progression system. Like I mentioned in #1261413250302738442 message
And give whales an option to bypass the farming it takes to acquire it.

[true nacelle]

how bad are they though>? apparently didnt even make top 10 in mega hunt. I know lots in rank 1-10 and they are all real players. I get they are a thing but if its not as big of an issue as we are making it than lets stop bringing more attension to it by making a feature telling everyone that people can do this for free

[prime locust]

yes let's not ruin the game for the sake of levelling the playing field with botters

[true nacelle]

agreed. Let the team ban and deal with it as best they can and not tell every new player coming in that the game has cheaters winning everything when they cant even make top 10 and we dont even know the exact amount

[kind bane]

theres no way of knowing unless the team publish a ban wave
if im a bot i wouldnt myself "seen"
just make small accounts and get low points

[tranquil cobalt]

how you know they are not cheating?
Because they told you they don't cheat?

[true nacelle]

might be cheating, more saying they arent bots and less likely cheating than randoms we never seen, cheaters were all meant to be chinese for example

[tranquil cobalt]

don't think cheating is racist 😄

[true nacelle]

and maybe we shouldnt be telling the team to make changes that could ruin the game, not solve cheating and at the same time make everyone think cheaters are worse than they might be

[tranquil cobalt]

that feature actually plays in cheaters hands... before they just saved time, now they save money.

[true nacelle]

exactly

and word getting out the feature is because cheaters can do it for free.....how is that ever a good thing

[kind bane]

lets just offer it for free

but u need to play the game to unlock it
maybe somekind of achievement or milestone

[true nacelle]

I think leave it paid. Id hate it to be free. Id have to use it and than it just ruins the fun. Rather use my effort to get stuff at less cost

[tranquil cobalt]

if you wana beat cheaters, just offer it for free and don't hide it behind progress or paywalls.

[true nacelle]

milestone would be perfect, they risk going to all that effort and chance of getting banned and having to start that account over again

[prime locust]

if there's some sort of account progression than the backlash from getting banned is higher.

[tranquil cobalt]

those who get banned are those who cheat and those who cheat don't need that milestone... and also just do another account when banned

[prime locust]

it will be a never ending fight against cheaters, so I don't think ruining the game because of them is the solution.

[true nacelle]

hmm true. well to be fair they need to progress anyway to get a team ready for stage 3. Scanning doesnt help with getting that team since its probs more cost effective to get stage 1s and level them

[kind bane]

yes there are only use bots to farm illuvials and resources

but if the team cant filter them for testnet then they will have the airdrops too

without anti cheat, the missions/milestone system is actually really good for botters
they get airdrop and they can profit from the capture

[tranquil cobalt]

yea that's true.
Depending on the profitability and speed of labs to ban them, they can just buy some standard team of the market and go hard on day 1 of account creation.
Or they don't need a team because they make profit with ores and plants.

Might be a good idea to add a cooldown to every asset, so it isn't trade- or sellable from the first second it got minted. And increase that CD to the average time they need to find the majority of abusers.

[true nacelle]

cant they have the illuvials spawn based on proximity and not be pre-determined once entering the region?

[kind bane]

afaik, the list is generated when u call the API

[true nacelle]

yea nvm

[kind bane]

there is no real solution to the auto scan imo

[tranquil cobalt]

if you care about cheaters there is 1 solution.
give it for free for everyone on day 1.

[kind bane]

but some people said its ruining the experience

[tranquil cobalt]

oh yea... i'm one of them
i wouldn't say ruin tho, but lower it massively

[true nacelle]

10 minute CD for entering a region? that way scanning maybe only saves a few minutes compared to runnning and searching during the 10 min CD

[kind bane]

cheaters can use 100 accounts to make up the cd

[true nacelle]

than they need 100x the assests to win encounters

and they have to log in and out, still adding minutes to the time they can do runs, reducing the over all advantage and maybe for some they feel its not worth it

zero negative effect on normal players. Why wouldnt you do it?

[kind bane]

at least shoot rocks and plants

[short citrus]

Exactly what I was pointing out, why should we pay for it when boters can do it for free - LOL

[west schooner]

hahah love how this spawn into a controversial feedback. Listen.. give me that autoscan as an end game feature so I can find those last dark holo and holo faster

[short citrus]

Well that's excatly what I'm questioning as well - like who as a real gamer would ever implement such a feature after such hussle of making amazing AAA games.

[short citrus]

LOL what a take on this issue haha.

[short citrus]

This!
Then it would be at least fair!

[short citrus]

The Illuvials which they traded can't be banned since it's on chain. So you suggesting then banning everyone who interact with the cheated Illuvials?

[prime locust]

being a free feature destroys the whole concept of exploring the OW region...

[short citrus]

THIS!

[short citrus]

Well seeing Kieran saying what he said in his message doesn't make it any better that we should pay for it but cheaters have it for free!

[short citrus]

100% agree, make it fair for everyone!

[prime locust]

yeah...

[prime locust]

the problem with this is then exploiters find another exploit. Are we going to start giving it for free too?

[short citrus]

Like for real, like this you even push web3 gamers away who aren't legit cheaters.

[short citrus]

They will either way. Maybe someone hasn't found out about it yet. But what shocks me how the team slept on this for so long till now!
Like there was SOOOO MUCH TIME and it was invested in polishing graphics for good experience to have in the end such feature and such conclusion from Kieran - that's a joke!

I rather have average graphics but a good software architecture with solid security in place and none such features nor cheaters.

[tranquil cobalt]

that game is anyways not a top game for web3 people.
Too high hardware needs, too much hustle, too less profitable (not even a profit guaranteed)

Web3 rather play stuff like pixelz or pirate nations, few clicks... multiple accounts... earning guaranteed.

[short citrus]

So all these years all these milions spend for not even 10k active accounts and some cheaters on top with multiple accounts - LOL.

[prime locust]

graphics and hopefully the unknown lore were our strong suits from the very beginning. Hopefully we've picked up the pace on the other areas as well. The team will keep on expanding if the games succeed.

[tranquil cobalt]

imo have to hope some web2 people hop in, but the usual web3 airdrop botter won't play illuvium imo.

[short citrus]

I do not see the point in further expanison when the base doesn't attract nearly enough people to have sustainable growth in income (financing further expansion).

[prime locust]

if you build it, they will come.

[short citrus]

As soon as they find out about the cheaters and that you have to pay for the "cheat" but they have it for free - they are long gone. And trying to not let them find out, trust me liying has short legs!

[short citrus]

"they will come" VC's won't throw endlessly money into an oven. At least I would cut my losses as VC and shut it down. Considering how the issue is being treated with cheaters.

[prime locust]

I think you're making it seem worse than what it actually is. Players that love the game won't care that much with cheaters. There are cheaters in every game. The problem comes if we let cheaters ruin the game economy.

[tranquil cobalt]

web3 is all about making profits... even tho some people in here try to make attractive for the typical farmer in web3 it just isn't (yet)
you can see that clearly on dau numbers, even on total accounts.

[short citrus]

Yeah there are but there they are fought at least and not tolerated - it feels like since I read Kierans message, they dont have enough time to re-write everything so botters are shut the door.
Instead let the normal user pay for the cheat and try to avoid mentioning the boters who have the cheat for free.
It's been now awhile already since everyone is aware of them and I do not see much approaches to really encounter them besides making us pay to have the same feature instead of having it for free.

[short citrus]

I have to absolutley agree with that. It's shocking to me how low the numbers are.
Hasn't Kieran always told us proudly that he has over 100k people waiting to be activated once we are approaching mainnet?
He has a true talent in hyping up but yeah that's about it looking at the numbers - but my last hope dies with mainnet launch.

[prime locust]

I honestly think it was good we attracted these exploiters early on with this airdrop instead of it happening after launch.

[short citrus]

I do not know what you call "early" but 6 weeks prior to mainnet is pretty late.

[tranquil cobalt]

they need to start to market it for web2 audience... delete all those fancy web3 terms in marketing like blockchain, nft's etc.

But maybe we are lucky and the few web3 people who join spend enough money to sustain for the release of the next games where hopefully web2 people already started joining.

[prime locust]

I mean if there was no PB4 airdrop we wouldn't be having this discussion yet. Only after launch.

[short citrus]

Not sustainable like this - but what do I know, we do not have the insights the team has / IlluviumLabs has. Someone can just hope they have the plans ready to bring on REAL players and not just airdrop farms which are gone by the day as soon as the airdrop ends.

[tranquil cobalt]

yea those airdrop farmers doesn't help to sustain, they are here for extracting money, not spending money

[short citrus]

Do you realize that these Illuvials they caught with there "cheating" - these Illuvials won't be banned because it's on chain. I guess you remember the rarity curve for Illuvials, right?
So these cheaters who use this feature for free gonna screw us not just up the hard grinding experiences but as well the economy itself.

[short citrus]

Not to hard to grasp, but for most it seems to be and call me fudder or whatver you want - it's simply harsh truth.

[prime locust]

yes but it's ideas like this one for example that help counter that
https://discord.com/channels/760344898200666112/1262044080238624798

[short citrus]

#1262044080238624798 message

@hexed sparrow is not that wrong with his counter augment.

[short citrus]

You can caught a dark holo Rhamphyre (if someone will be so lucky) if there are no real sustainable playerbase who cares? Feel free to enlist it for 1 mio. good luck finding someone locking his million up into a game which has no active growing player base.
Most won't, maybe some moonboyz till the end of bullrun but I don't wanna know were we're heaed once the next bear market hits us.

Best example (these are not Illuvials but part of Illuvium's Universe) -> Illuvium Zero and Illuvium Beyond both are dead liquidity wise.

[simple spear]

To be able to sell a product you need a buyer. In a free market the person offering a product for the cheapest price is able to sell it. If one person needs to spend 2X production cost they can’t compete with the person spending 1X. The person spending 1X can keep making products and sell for between 1-2X and make a profit, the person paying 2X can’t sell for lower than 2X to make a profit. (Assuming assets find buyers for more than 1X ofc)
These are basic economics.

[short citrus]

Do you know the costs of an iPhone, calling your thesis "basic econimics" is not super accurate.

[tranquil cobalt]

absolutely, nontheless. the person spending 1x doesn't sell it cheaper, it just sells it for floorprise as all other.
he's not coming in , hey i have to spend more time than you but pay half the price, so i sell my asset for half of your price.
That's not going to happen mate. He just makes more profit than the other dude paying 2x

[tranquil cobalt]

aple has like tripple the margin of the company with the 2nd highest margin 😄
Just because they can

[short citrus]

Exactly what I was referring to.

[simple spear]

There is no 2nd apple or 2nd company making a 1 to 1 same product.

[tranquil cobalt]

lol

[short citrus]

😅 😂

[simple spear]

People who want to sell with lower the floor price until you have more people buying at that price than are willing to sell.
People who pay 1X are more willing to sell for lower prices than ones who pay more to make a product.

If you can turn a profit more players are encouraged to play the game at base price and turn a profit.

[short citrus]

That's wishful thinking bro but has nothing to do with basic economics like you liked to call it.

[simple spear]

This is the reality of free markets.

[astral notch]

I love this feature 👌

People who think this is a bad feature I highly disagree with you

[short citrus]

You love to pay for it but knowing at the same time other cheaters have it for free - for real?

[short citrus]

Elaborate how you disagree when it's simply unbalanced and unfair that the cheaters have it for free but the legit players have to pay for it?

[astral notch]

Happily discuss 😊

What do u mean other cheaters have it for free?

[short citrus]

Well the once who are not playing by the rules obviously.

[astral notch]

We are talking about auto scan correct?

[short citrus]

Good luck in selling this to your audience. Look we offer you the same feature the cheaters are using but you have to pay for it.

[astral notch]

Okay I just read keirens post above.

So bots already know we’re all illuvials are when using script?

Bots will have to pay for this feature, no?

[short citrus]

They do since the beginning of PB4 since there are rewards they can harvest.

[kind bane]

at launch it is all about speed.
most profit is made withing the first week, month or 3 months of launch.
normally, prices start high then trending down over time.
The script and the auto scan can accelerate this process.
this is the advance economics

[astral notch]

So Phillip your saying that when a bot comes into this game they already know we’re all the illuvials and mining places are?

[kind bane]

the first holo/dh ramphy will hit different than the second, etc

[short citrus]

Not what I'm saying, these are facts.

[prime locust]

exactly why paying 2x the price will be worth it in the beginning. But I won't say more.

[short citrus]

Yeah it might hit the Illuvium community. But no serious person with lots of money gonna lock his money into this Universe after the data shows clearly over the years that there is almost no liquidity.

[simple spear]

If what you assume is accurate everyone is able to opt in the feature.
If what you assume isn’t accurate and the amount of people not using it has same or more assets than there are willing buyers it is net negative to use it in terms of roi still.

[kind bane]

yea ill use most of my silv2 and spend on auto scan for the first week

[astral notch]

I love auto scan and will pay to use it

[simple spear]

Basic game theory would dictate that masses opting to not use this have a lower risk and higher profit margin.

[prime locust]

bonding curve enters the room

[astral notch]

Once I used it once it’s hard to go back without it.. Which means great for the DAO and dev divs

[short citrus]

Well good for you. I do not see a reason the average gamer with average income will pay for it when cheaters are using it for free.

[astral notch]

Well I think the team needs to do there best to minimize bots

[simple spear]

You aren’t aware of how much bonding curve impacts things, so this would at most be relevant to how expensive the feature should be not if it should exists or not.

[kind bane]

we got alexa and kieran

[astral notch]

And even though u can’t stop all bots there still paying for runs which again is great for DAO

[short citrus]

Well there comes Kieran message into play. Which clearly says well look we don't really have a solution (between the lines) but we give you the same BUT you have to pay for it - have fun filling our pockets.

[prime locust]

when did I say it shouldn't exist? I like it for the right price and if there's some sort of progression system tied to it.

[simple spear]

I agree bots are bad, but people can always get scholars for cents/hours though.

[short citrus]

Neither Alexa is willing to throw more money into it. I have offered her the rarest Illuvial for sale. She simply doesnt see enough liquidity like I do to throw even more into the Universe.

[prime locust]

bots ain't the problem.... Exploiters and cheaters are.

[kind bane]

damn few whales i talked to dont want to either.
rip

[astral notch]

In summary I love auto scan and it should stay the way it is.. I will happily spend good money for using it becuase it makes my experience WAYY better for someone who only has an hour or 2 to play per day I’m paying for time

[short citrus]

Well there you have it.

[kind bane]

we still got sam tho

[simple spear]

I agree, I won’t use it though, paying 2X for assests when I have more disposable time seems unwise to me.

[short citrus]

A game with amazing graphics but no Liquidity won't get you anywhere same as micro caps were you are on paper multi trilionaire.

[astral notch]

Which makes sense..

[prime locust]

how long does an average run take you to do? And how long does it take with the auto-scan?

[astral notch]

Runs will increase in time most likely because u will want to fight most illuvial battles to level up your illuvials

[short citrus]

Yeah sure, but you obviously do not care much about being cost effective. Most gamers (the masses) haven't yet there own company or they own established brand.
They just enjoy playing and when they are told you have to pay for your advantage while others have it for free this gonna be not funny to them - there motivation won't stay long to keep playing and telling there friends about there amazin experience!

[simple spear]

On capture runs autoscan cuts at most half the time.
Still gotta fly and fight and capture and loading screens.

[prime locust]

you're assuming there will be enough interest in leveled up illuvials worth taking the time for that.

[short citrus]

You will be still outrun by the cheaters and the rarity curve (more often an illuvial is catched - the harder it gets to get it later).

[simple spear]

If you think that will be true, feel free to play like that.

[short citrus]

I won't play at all much if this feature remains. No motivation - playing vs cheaters, who have it for free.

[astral notch]

It’s not about cost effective.. I’m putting money into this ecosystem wanting fun in return..

People think about making money from web3 games and it won’t work like this. If u make $10 that means someone has lost $10 but maybe that person gained value in their experience and fun.. it’s not always about $$

[simple spear]

But why if you think it is so easy to profit of it?

[prime locust]

you'll be playing vs them with or without this feature being in the game 🤣

[simple spear]

Yeah the base assumptions shouldn’t be making net positive runs, that isn’t sustainable. People paying for entertainment is the goal.

[astral notch]

The only thing I could say to this is illuvium need to do there best with cheaters and ban them as best they can but they are in all games.. look at world of Warcraft they have heaps of cheaters and people still play and pay $30 subscription or whatever it is per month becuase of value of entertainment and fun

[short citrus]

I might play my city for a little bit, but the way the team treats this issue with the cheaters of giving us the feature and let us pay for it is far from a proper respectful treatment.
I rather spend my money otherwise.
If I get enough fuel from my city's I might use it for some runs, but I cannot take the game any longer serious the state it is in (overworld).

[astral notch]

You should play illuvium for fun and entertainment value.. if you here to earn money then tbh I wouldn’t want those people in the ecosystem even though there will be a % that is here for that

When people think web3 game all they think is wow I can make money playing.. 🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️

[prime locust]

are you guys aware of how many millions of people in the world get a wage of less than 5$ a month?

[astral notch]

It’s about ownership of assets at its core and people will pay money for things and some won’t and that’s okay.. people will pay if they find value in something

[short citrus]

Yeah cause it's part of there life and they don't wanna give up in regards the amount of money and time they spend on it. Illuvium hasn't established such a bond to a wide audience which speaks against it that it will be able to establish such a bond with the issues from the very start it faces.
I do not like to repeat myself to often but I do it for you, the Illuvials these cheaters have caught and traded aren't taken away from the blockchain they will remain in the market and the team won't be able to do anything against it (damage done).

[prime locust]

it's inevitable ppl will come to play the game for money...

[prime canyon]

You might want to get out of playing games then. Because no matter which game you play instead, there will be cheaters there too.

[astral notch]

And that’s okay we don’t need them to spend in this game and if they want to try make money that’s okay too

[short citrus]

You remember originaly the slogan was "Pay to earn" we are here in web3 so it should be either fun or both fun and money. But with these cheaters it's neither.

[prime locust]

that idea clearly failed

[short citrus]

That's why I do not play most games anymore because of the cheaters.

[prime locust]

we should reward the best of the best, not for simply playing...

[kind bane]

You dnt normally find all illuvials in a run, even if u spend some time looking. Especially without detection drone upgrade.
You'll prob shot some rocks/plants while exploring too.
The auto scan really change your gameplay, see hw many u want catch, allocate the rest for ores

[short citrus]

Yeah exactly, it's funny to me how everyone thinks there so much wealth for all the humans on earth and everyone has a capable PC to play high end games - LOL

[astral notch]

Okay let’s go with that, so say launch happens bots or per se cheaters spend $2-10 per run or whatever it may be.. that’s still making the DAO money so from a business perspective that’s great.

Now what about players.. well players have more options to buy these illuvials if they so choose too.. and as long as illuvium team are doing there best to ban bots and stooping as many cheaters within there grasps I’m okay with this.

I’m here to play with friends have fun spend a little bit of money if I choose and enjoy a great IP

[short citrus]

Make the feature for free and it becomes a diferent story. Then it's fair at least compared to the cheaters.

[astral notch]

Play to earn is stupid!

[prime canyon]

Yes, it is sad that they ruin good games but that's human nature.

[prime locust]

it's simply unsustainable... We can't pay to everyone. But crypto has this thing where they like to sell dreams.

[short citrus]

Fair enough, but once money is in play most people have different approaches espcially when it's there own hard earned money.

As soon as it makes the round that the cheaters are not under control most true gamers will leave and with it a consistent revenue stream. So the option is either making it fair and make this feature for free (like a milestone or something) so you are on the same lvl with the cheaters were as the cheaters have the disadvantage of being banned and you as a player still feel like you accomplished something for your grinding.

Were as if you keep it behind a paywal and the cheaters might get banned but make new accounts every time, I feel like I didn't just wasted my money but espically the most precious thing which is my time.

[kind bane]

But we are currently paying people to play tho

[astral notch]

Hence why the term doesn’t make sense anymore.. it’s okay a web3 game and you get ownership and if u want to sell and buy assets then great, enjoy!

There will be bots and cheaters in all games

[short citrus]

It truly is, sadly. But it doesn't make it any better as Illuvial Labs putting this feature behind a paywal when they pretty well know that the cheaters have it for free and screw the bonding curve with it since they catch the Illuvials much faster since they know what they have each round without paying for the feature since they using there scripts.

[astral notch]

How so, are you saying in regards to the airdrop?

[prime locust]

if we inject back funds from revdis we can create a feedback loop based on revenue. It is possible to do it. But we can only reward the best of the best.

[short citrus]

The thing is once the cheaters flood the market with there Illuvials it will screw over not just the bonding curve but also the market.

[astral notch]

I disagree to make this feature free, it doesn’t make sense..

[short citrus]

Play to Airdrop is even more stupid just for the record Sam. SInce you just attract extractors and no long term player base with high retention rates.

[prime locust]

make cheaters pay not us community members.

[short citrus]

Well most seem not to grasp this. But I give it up at this point.

[prime locust]

it's a bit of marketing campaign. You attract a few players that aren't all that bad and end up getting invested in the game.

[short citrus]

That's the theory, reality is a little harsher my friend. There are many examples from the past which have proven that.

[prime locust]

although I agree airdrop farmers overall are net extractors from the ecosystem.

[astral notch]

Okay let’s talk about the airdrop on pros and cons

Airdrop is basically marketing money so instead of spending money on ads or watever you do it in a fancy airdrop way.. now the idea is bring in players and get love attached to the IP.

You have 5-6 months to do so so people love it.

Yes you will have bad actors trying to exploit and move onto the next game and so on.. we don’t want these people but as long as you reward the right people and yes a % of airdrop money will go to extractors and that’s okay we will return good users

[prime locust]

check the https://discord.com/channels/760344898200666112/991347717009842206

[short citrus]

Well let's come back at the end of the airdrop, I hope I gonna be proven wrong, if so there is hope for the Illuvium ecosystem if not - well then it was a nice ride and lesson learned.

[prime canyon]

It could work if they make the travel cost more expensive. This way, the cheaters also have to pay more for every run, and the players would have equal rights by having scan for free. It would also make cheaters leave more value in a run if they choose not to spend the rest of their energy.

[short citrus]

I don't need to bro, I'm living in reality not in dream scenarios.

[astral notch]

Would u rather spend marketing money like web 2 games on ads and what not or airdrop campaign? Would love to know? Honestly

[prime locust]

my point is that players get hooked by the IP.

[short citrus]

Yeah they might be hooked by the IIP as long as the money comes in. Guess what once the limited player base we have is exhausted the market will turn into the state of Illuvium Zero and Beyond market. Dead.

[prime locust]

those market are dead for now, because they lack utility. Let the games come out and we'll talk again.

[short citrus]

The cheaters don't care, they will extract as long as it makes sense to them and as soon as there is no more gain makeable they will move on (after they screwed us all over).

[short citrus]

Well I hope so for the sake of all of us who supported and belived in Illuvium over the years (including myself even if I regret it by now).

I haven't spend as much as Kieran on his land or Alexa on here beyond collection but a considerable 6-figure amount.

[kind bane]

Buy our bags plz

[short citrus]

Well what I would do? To be honest I have not enough insights to truly give an serious honest advise. But what I would not do I can easily tell you.

Do not screw over (extratct even more) from your loyal user base which Illuvium has left from all the delays and so on and try everything in your power to make it as fair as possible from the start of mainnet.
If that means since they can not enforce a software architecture change in time (to stop bots from cheating), make it fair and offer it to everyone.
As long as it's just the "scanning" what the boters were able to extract it should be alright - but give us all the same tools for the same costs!!!
Otherwise well good luck with the news which will go around quite quickly if that's not the case that the loyal players/community hasn't the same tools like bots but instead are even asked to pay for it extra while they know that the bots do it for free 24/7 and screw the economy (bonding curve of rare Illuvials), then you won't be left with lots of players if that remains the case at the end of the airdrop once most of the airdrop extractors are gone.

[somber jungle]

I don't hate this mechanic as a gameplay feature for sure. But what if u could get a drone chip that reveals 4 illuvials per run. Rather than a thing u just flat out pay for

[static peak]

tldr

Make the scans a flat rate purchase (separate from fuel) that can used for all staged runs.
Could even think about rewarding players scans to use, when reaching certain milestones in game

[civic ermine]

Highly recommended this.

[west schooner]

That's a good alternative too. The more option for sinks the better imo.

[west schooner]

❤️

[summer rampart]

4 illuvials at the most annoying locations like the highest spawn zones on brightland steppes would be awesome

[somber jungle]

Yeah hahah just thinking out aloud

[wanton gorge]

I kind of want to laugh when I see you make this point. 🤣 But really it's survivor bias. You can see those photos and films because we want ilv to go in a good direction, so we chose to expose it so you can see it. Don't people in other countries use cheating tools? Why hasn't anyone else exposed it? Should I also keep quiet and choose to use tools to cheat?

[true nacelle]

I think my point was they were all people from the community before the airdrop, 100% could of been cheating but I was expecting the winners to be people that go to airdrop to airdrop using cheats to farm therefore names we hadn’t seen before