Fuel

[sterile cipher]

How do you fell about fuel price?
I am spending the $200 test daily.
At first i tought the fuel it's too cheap but now i see i spent close to $1000 and not getting too much out of it (i know that here comes the skill factor and i am on the lower levels of skill).
I am a bit contradicted. I don't afford to spend so much money in a few days when it goes live and i feel that it will take too much just to farm some materials from stage 3, not mentioning about capturing the illuvials, but i also understand the importance of stage 3 runs and how a cheap price would just make everyone grind everything in just a month.
Also sorry if i make too many posts.

[broken adder]

I think it's really up to Illuvium to decide if we want to grab money from rich people or we want mass adoption.
Ain't nobody spending more than $50 a month to play a game.

[half crow]

This is not web2 @broken adder
I wouldn't mind spending 1k per month if I would be getting more value out of it.

[fleet root]

No matter how we balance the money needed to be spent to acquire X illuvial or X item, can't we make it so that at least the amount of playtime/money spent is higher?

I think it's important to not gatekeep the playtime by money spent.

[broken adder]

Okay... but do you think that will give us mass adoption and people playing the game?

You think kids will get 1k a month from parents to play the game?

How many people don't have an average income of 1k a month in the world?

How many people are willing to spend half of their monthly income on the game?

Let's not fool ourselves.

[half crow]

yes I would also like for each travel to have a bit more juice to it

[half crow]

kids will spend 15$ on 10 S1 travels, be lucky find a slappin, sell it for 30$ and keep grinding on and on.

[agile wave]

Aaron was just saying in the overworld chat that it's an open market, so it'll adjust to whatever people are willing to pay on its own

[broken adder]

That's not how it works.

[half crow]

lol why not?

you can even go to stage 0 and farm materials, craft ingots and sell for those that don't wanna farm stage 0's for the gear

[broken adder]

If you spend $15 on travel on average you will find around $15 worth of stuff in those 10 travels.

[half crow]

yes I didn't include the hyperion cost in that

[half crow]

it will take some time for those numbers to be even out

[agile wave]

I agree you do need stage 0 materials for just about everything, I think people are underestimating your ability to sell your way up

[broken adder]

And when they even out everyone is done with the game?

[half crow]

there's new sets coming? That will constantly repeat the cycle

it will always be more profitable in the beginning of each set, when there's more demand and less supply

[fleet root]

I think anything from tier 0 will eventually end up costing close to 0. Everyone including bots will play tier 0 runs.

Imo they need to 5-10x the playtime for current costs. Otherwise, we'll have this beautiful game that simply doesn't get played a lot.

[half crow]

I pay 10$ for a s3 travel and it gives me around 30 mins of game time if I go capture illuvials or 10 mins if I go mine/harvest.

[fleet root]

Exactly. So if we want people to play say 3 hours a day, assuming your efficiency, we'd charge 60$ for that session. I doubt the majority of gamers will be able to pay that on a daily basis.

We're leaving behind all hardcore gamers.

[half crow]

I'm hoping my T4 landplot helps mitigate those play costs.

But yeah it's tough for whoever wants to go ham on the OW.

[cunning idol]

most of web3 degens are mid 30s

and crypto is 18+ u need a credit card or KYC

fuel is fine as long as we are P2E and people make money

fuel price can go down with lower demand

[somber snow]

50 a month is INSANE

[cunning idol]

gas was $100 awhile ago

[little swallow]

There are different stages. If you want to play 60-90 minute a day - do S2/S3 runs.
If you want to play for 8-10 hours - Do S1 runs.
I'm pretty sure we'll agree that with infinite time doing S1 runs is more money efficient than doing S3 runs.

If you want to do S3 runs like an arab sheik feel free to pay for it.

But the big problem is how we get people to even try the game. Once they're hooked and understand the market - great. But before that you can't put a huge paywall in their face. They should not be thinking that they'll never be able to play the whole game.

Maybe there can be a rebate system that allows you to play a single S2 run for every X S1 runs you've done. And a S3 for every Y S2 runs.

I'd like to draw a comparisson to beyond d1sks. We saw both alpha and mega variations of those. In the end the most efficient way to get on the lederboard was to buy the cheapest d1sks. If you want to play more, you have to pay less. I agree it feels bad to not go into S3 that much. Maybe the name makes you want to go into it more, because it sounds like it will give you more, but there is no evidence of that. You can find a rhamphyre in a S1 run. And it will be easier to capture there. Like you can probably do 10 S1 runs over a single S3 run. With that much energy you can capture a huge variety of illuvials and fuse your way into the hier staged ones.

[half crow]

I tend to agree with you, but on this one I completely disagree with you.

First you're thinking only in terms of illuvials. If we talk about resources spamming stage 1 regions will never get you high tier resources.

Secondly, the XP you get from 10x stage 1 runs doesn't get close to the XP of 1 stage 3 run.

And lastly, finding T5S3 in a stage 1 region is pretty rare. And you want to farm those ASAP before their bonding curve increases.

[little swallow]

I also did not open a single rhamphyre or ophisto in standard disks. But I don't think I've done bad for myself by not overspending on mega disks 🙂

I know we all want to get the shiny thing. But if we all do it's not shiny anymore.

[lone lily]

Im worried about the cost also. But i think illuvium has made stage 1 with so much value if they keep it the same as testnet. Ive caught some of my rarest illuvials on stage 1.

We will also be able to level illuvials in arena which is free.

Resource and shard farming is what is going to be rough on the bank account.

[half crow]

Yeh I don't like that. Finding rare illuvials shouldn't be something to come by ez in stage 1 regions. I would rather lower a bit the travel prices than see that happening.

they already lowered the fuel costs btw. It was 0.0041$ and now it's 0.0039$

I'm assuming the fuel prices are at the top rail-guard. So this is the most expensive it will ever be.

[lone lily]

There is probs some logic and reasoning to it. Its the first $$ people will spend, if they have a great experience they will likely spend more. T5 illuvials may not even be in stage 1 atm but even cutting them out people probs wouldnt notice. Its just nice seeing T3 S3 illuvials in stage 1

[cunning idol]

yea better to have cheaper fuel price and lower chance to catch rare illuvials

[little swallow]

I think there is stigma here. People think they're playing a subpar game if they're doing S1 runs.

The same way you can get a rhamphyre in a standard disk, you should be able to capture it in a S1 run.
Will it be hard - yes.

There should be no shame in just doing your S1 runs.You can trade into stuff that you can't find there.

[half crow]

More than the fuel price being the gateway to higher stage regions, I would like it would rather be the difficulty of these. Where it would take a certain stage progression requiring to farm a certain number of stage 1's to be able to go to stage 2' to then do stage 3's.

Stage 3's are the OW end game and right now I don't really like it as it is. There's really no depth to it, since all the encounters are basically the same there's no need to think or strategize, you know there will be 10+ stage 1 illuvials and maybe 1-2 rare and only the encounter mods change. There's a lack of synergies and good team comps, which makes the scanning function worthless and you just enter every encounter blindly. This is exacerbated even further by the fact that the strongest illuvial is not the one that shows in the OW.

[little swallow]

I think the biggest gateway is the 1-2-3k gaming PC you need to even play the OW. I have an i7 and a decent video that's $600-800. This setup runs 99% of games. Cyberpunk. BG3. But I have to play OW at lowest posible settings and look at triangles everywhere.

the fact that the strongest illuvial is not the one that shows in the OW
This needs to change 100%

[half crow]

Another thing I would like to see is for each region requiring players to bring a specific team comp synergy in order to beat those encounters. Right now I can win almost all encounters in all 3 regions with the same team without using any consumables. I only need consumables when there are 6 mods and 2x extra damage mod. My team is around lvl 30.

For this to be possible it would mean that we wouldn't be finding every single illuvial in every region like it currently is, and the enemy teams wouldn't be simply a spam of stage 1 illuvials and would actually have high affinity synergies matching that region.

[wind garden]

Wow filow is out of reality
Make it some cents for the runs with the actual gameloop or nobody willing to play that game.

making a pokemon game style that is only for CEO that have budget for while that kind of game is destinated for all public..

With the actual pricing. I already spent 4k $ in the beta to get only 1 T5S3 and way way far to have all rare illuvials.

[half crow]

yes I know I'm out of this world.

a 1$ per stage 1 travel seems a fair price. I wouldn't go below that or you risk making the assets worthless. Not sure that's something you understand.

this is testnet and the actual pricing is off on the hyperion yes but the rest is not that bad. And this is fuel at the top rail-guard. Free market will dictate the price of fuel.

[wind garden]

did you play the game ?

[wind garden]

we don't care of having worthless T1 illuvial value. people need low cost illuvial to have at least seomthing to play in arena. the high cost value illuvial have to come from high end T5+ and holo / cosmetic stuff

people that gonna have to pay 20$ to be able to craft shards + capture 2-3 T1 illuvial will not play that game. and thats millions.
if there is 1k people that is ok with the price that you propose. nobody gonna pay for skins / holo illuvial as the prices is already to high
or the 200 person team that build this game is building it for CEOs

[half crow]

prices are being reviewed by expert analysts. This patch is expensive. Nothing new there.

but you should keep in mind that web3 assets hold value. So you're not simply spending without any return.

[wind garden]

That's not an argument that's good for you.
If the price is already based to high and hold value or being more expensive later because of scarcity / not anymore available in overworld. it will become outreachable for arena / other games players.
Prefer to have cheaper asset but become more priced overtime but still affordable to some players and let high end Holo / dark holo for the big wallet for the fame

[half crow]

it's you or whoever you represent since you go by "we" that don't understand that the OW will be enticing as long as the assets make up for the travel/capture cost. For the 1v1 arena you have free decks and weekly rotation. And for the Gauntlet mode you have a F2P mode.

[wind garden]

so if arena free decks and weekly rotation and gauntled f2p is enough to have fun in it and compete. nobody gonna spend any $ in overworld if they don't need

well. I'm a gamer. i'll let "expert analyst" take decisions. for sure my friends not gonna come if they locked to free rotations and 1k$ / month gaming spend

[half crow]

have you played any other web3 game @wind garden ?

[minor belfry]

This is how I feel to, unless those higher tiered illuvials are worth more than they spend. Guess we’ll see if people will spend big money on ramphires and other rare illuvials. People do spend on skins though, will there be cool skins you can buy with fuel?

[wind garden]

yes. and no ones of the NFT kept in value anyway.

[half crow]

and I'm pretty sure the game died

[wind garden]

not yet

[half crow]

my point is, you don't actually just "spend" in web3 you "invest" because if the economy is healthy assets hold value.

[wind garden]

Pricing the NFT higher don't make them hold more value.
just how the economy is built.

[half crow]

It's all about supply and demand. And the point is not that you spend 1k$ per month, is how much does spending 1k$ a month get you.

[wind garden]

i don't want to "invest". just want to have fun to a game where i can sell it back if I want to leave to another.
Let me a 100$ game if I want to. spend into skin if I want to. and move out. majority of gamers don't care of "investing". they just wanna have fun to a game.
and they don't spend 150$+ to play it

if you can make a game that cost you 100$ to be fine with. And it takes value overtime. well it's bingo.

[half crow]

then the OW is not the game for you, there will be a lot of games to choose from in the future. Arena and IZ are F2P.

[wind garden]

don't make a game cost 4k$ at the start because you want a good ROI investment. it's a game..

[half crow]

that is absurd, just because you can spam stage 3 regions now with monopoly money doesn't mean you would be able to to it with real money so that statement is bullocks.

[wind garden]

you said you want to spend 1k$/month
sorry, but 99% of gamers don't. so you argument to push for it have 0 value for me.
well gonna see what dev want for their game. if they miss. you will be alone to play that game

[half crow]

but that's me personally, I'm not speaking on behalf of nobody. Neither I'm the avg gamer.

[cunning idol]

invest is a bold statement

[half crow]

I don't see why. It is what it is. Just because you invest in something doesn't mean you make profit.

I'm losing money on my landplot right now, is it not an investment?

[cunning idol]

if u sell now its an expense

[half crow]

well but that's the beauty of it

[cunning idol]

it might be better if people see illuvials as expense

[half crow]

it's on us to choose when to sell

[cunning idol]

hard to see it as an investment without knowing the maximum supply

[half crow]

ppl see things however they wanna see them. To me this is clearly an investment.

I don't need to know the max supply, I know it's time limited and I know it's still way too early.

[cunning idol]

with land, we know the supply, so it is more like an investment, because we are betting that demand exceed supply

[half crow]

if the games explode to mass adoption it's the same with illuvials

[cunning idol]

maybe for rare illuvials

[half crow]

there's only one set 1.

[cunning idol]

its the same with illuvitar, the lowest is cents

[half crow]

yes. I'll be laughing in the future when they have a dedicated game and use cases.

[cunning idol]

like pokemon card, most are trash

[half crow]

obviously the rarer ones are more valuable and then there are the ones that are meta defining

this reminds me when I first bought BTC 9 years ago and everyone was saying it was a scam and I would lose the money. I saw it as an investment. Guess they ain't calling it a scam anymore now.

[cunning oasis]

I think the prices atm are completely crazy.** I really hope and think that these are just random beta prices**. Even if the average person is able to get a full set of Illuvials for 100$ it should be fine since there is a lot of stuff that can have super high value like holos and perfect IVs (which would be the normal way to go - see pokemon and other games). With the pricing anywhere near this people wouldn't play, no mass adoption, NFTs would lose value since there wouldn't be any interest.
Again, completely fine if only perfect IVs and Holos break the three digit mark.

Also I think we should change it to just one fuel type for runs because the costs for shards and items feel kinda hidden and therefor feel like a ripoff. Especially the first runs are "no, you can't catch Illuvials now because you need to farm shards first". After that "nope, we need money from you to craft shards first".

This atm just looks way too greedy and I would say you make more money by selling skins (holos) and creating a hugh fanbase first with low prices.

Maybe it is even important that the first generation of Illuvials isn't available anymore at some point, so, the prices start rising with a growing fanbase and demand for future generations rises.

[cunning oasis]

Maybe, another addition: Web3 for me was meant to offer the player ownership and a platform to sell stuff like skins, awards and other items to other players. But instead of just offering this platform the prices for skins and other stuff also increased from 1-10$ per skin/item to 200$. Unsurprisingly players weren't that interested. For example wow classic sold a premium edition for 20$ more than the normal version which comes with a pet. This pet got sold for thousands years later. That means a normal rhamphyre doesn't have to be super expensive during season 1. It will automatically hold hugh value during season 2+ if Illuvium has a health fanbase (In my opinion only extreme pricing could stop Illuvium from getting there).

[glad gorge]

Totally agree 100%.

Let the market set the price of the NFTs and just price the playing of the game as you would a normal (and I hate to use the term) ‘web 2’ game or like a pack of Pokémon cards.

You’re absolutely right, the NFTs will be a damn sight more valuable if 2 million players enjoy the game at accessible prices than if 50,000 paying crazy prices. More fool the 50,000 too as there will only be 50,000 potential buyers of their NFTs, not 2m +

And let’s not forget, games are about having FUN. Ownership is the cherry on top, not the be all and end all.

I see so many people in here getting this wrong 😡

[glad gorge]

The majority of people won’t make a profit from playing this game

It’s a game, that’s not what it’s all about

[glad gorge]

You won’t get any value out of game that only a few thousand people play because the cost is too high.

There will be no demand for your NFTs because everybody else was priced out of the enjoyment of playing the game

[half crow]

You're all making wrong assumptions based on the current fuel prices at the testnet. This sh1t will hit mass adoption. Mark my words.

[glad gorge]

You’re understanding of economics is totally flawed 🤙

We’re just saying that at current prices there is no mass adoption and there is no long term value to the NFTs because there won’t be many people playing. And those playing are then hoping some rich person buys their NFT assets before the treasury goes broke, sorry to say.

Pokémon card wouldn’t be Pokémon cards if only 20,000 people could afford to buy them back in early 2000s.

[half crow]

sure thing.

[glad gorge]

I’m hoping that the testnet prices aren’t accurate (but why set them at that level for pb4 if they’re not what the team have planned)

[half crow]

telling an economics guy that my thinking is flawed is really funny.

[glad gorge]

So you think assets will hold value if there’s low players long term and therefore low demand?

[half crow]

err I just said we'll hit mass adoption on my previous answer. I believe in the team 100%.

[glad gorge]

So you do believe in lower fuel prices - got you 🤙

[half crow]

#1237380224002429070 message

[cunning oasis]

hmm, I think 1$/t1-run is still a lot. I think @fiery magnet wrote that the average game time atm is around 3 hours per day. Lets say in that time you finish 10x t1, 1 x t2 and 1 x t3 run. Alone the t1 runs would add up to 10$ a day (300$ a month). With the amount of runs t1 needed to farm xp/plants/Illuvials and with the higher necessity of t2/t3 runs over time, I would say that 30 cent per t1 run is enough. As said the game doesn't end if you have a full set of Illuvials it starts at that point because people will want to farm for perfect IVs/Holos. I still think we win more if we start at lower prices, build a bigger fanbase and suck people into the game. Season 1 Illuvials will gain value over time if the game keeps a big fanbase. Pokemon cards are valuable because the got sold 20 years and you can't buy them anymore. We can't tell an average web2 player that he has to pay 1$ for 15 min of playtime at the start and afterwards hit that person with further costs like shard curing (again one type of fuel would be easier).

[half crow]

your calculations are only possible for resource gathering speed running. No way your catching illuvials with only 15mins for each run.

I think you guys are getting this all wrong. As long as it's profitable spamming runs on the OW ppl will do so. No matter the price. If I pay 1$ and get on average 10$ of loot, I'll keep grinding non stop. If the price was 0.1$ and you get on average 1$ of loot do you think it has the same appeal? It doesn't unless you're a 3rd world country.

[topaz trench]

"In the West, consumers spend an average of $72.47 monthly on direct purchases, significantly more than the $30.70 spent in the East."
(Business of Apps, "Mobile gamers in the West spend twice as much in-game as those in the East")

Our expectation is that a game where you can directly sell some of what you get and at the very least get some of that back means poeple should be willing to spend a little more.

But we are also well aware that we want to encourage mass adoption and need more early game content to get people interested.

[leaden garnet]

I agree on this one also ... a stage 3 run - properly scouting the map and hunting takes about an hour (maybe more) - if you take into account at least 4-5 battles.
I also agree 1$ mark for stage 1 runs is good .. i wouldn't go lower
What i would add is some more use cases for Solon as it's by far the most underused fuel. Imagine that first couple of weeks you don't need high tier weapons etc so the costs for up to Tier 3 weapons and Drone upgrades are only 450/craft which is very low

[topaz trench]

However saying people wont spend $50 a month on a game is just out of touch with reality. These numbers were averages for those that considered themselves mobile gamers.

Other similar numbers, include an average spend of $84 per month for console gamers. A popular titles like Zyngas Merge Dragons has an average spend of $34 per month, etc.

[cunning oasis]

My personal target suggestion would be 100$. I think your numbers make perfectly sense but we had numbers way above those flying around (up to 1k/month)

[topaz trench]

I wasn't talking to you. (The first post in the thread says "aint nobody spending more than $50 a month")

That said I think the aim is to make the economy work with active paying players spending $25 per month. (I say 'I think' as I'm not working on the economy directly, may have misremembered presentation)

[cunning oasis]

yeah, forgot about that post 😄 But thank you for giving a response on a general analysis for target prices.
That sounds awesome the beta prices kinda looked scary even if people are aware that these are test numbers to get data

[topaz trench]

I think the biggest thing is turning people in to active paying players, we need enough content that is free to get people in.

For widespread adoption the first spend has to feel both a) really necessary and b) really rewarding.

"Man I neeeeed to go to T1" ... but then .... "Woo hoo that was totally worth it!"

---

In any case this is not my area of expertise, just my thoughts.

[cunning oasis]

totally agree, atm it is kinda the other way around because the first runs feel kinda hard and you get used to it later on

[topaz trench]

Yeah, I agree, but that is definitely something the people working on this stuff are aware of.

[fiery magnet]

Totally agree with this view Johnny. Also not my area of expertise but definitely feels right as you mention it.

[cunning idol]

if the average spending is $25/month, we need 300K players just to pay for expenses

if our P2E is working well, meaning playing is profitable, either from selling nfts or getting airdrops,
we dont need to worry about the minimum spending.

[thick loom]

I'm not really sure on the 'really necessary' part. When I spend 40$ on a skin I don't do it because I have to, I do it because the game is already fun to play and I want to further enhance the experience.

If most of the progression was behind a paywall, I probably wouldn't end up spending anything.

That's my main concern right now, the games look and feel great to play, but remains to see if our model will be successful.

[thick loom]

We are not really a p2e project though? The only way OW turns profitable consistently, and not through RNG luck, is if we have a constant growing playerbase and a continuous demand for stuff. Otherwise if everyone is profitable, where are the profits coming from?

Would be a shame if we dump all of the in-game rewards for airdrops, means everything else failed.

[cunning idol]

we are p2e
leaderboard rewards and the airdrop

[half crow]

seems like you also don't understand what P2E means. It's not just that...

[half crow]

It's evident that you lack vision regarding how things will function. To me it's obvious that it is 'really necessary'.

Your line of thinking only applies to Web2. Web2 games have three different business models: you either pay the game box price, you pay a monthly subscription, or you can play for free and the game generates revenue by selling skins.

Both the OW and IZ are unique games within the Illuvium universe since they serve as asset generator games. This obviously means that everything must be gated by a paywall since valuable assets are acquired through these games.

To me this concept reminds me of the old arcade machines where you had to insert a coin to play for a certain period time and get a chance to register your name in the machine's leaderboard. In these 2 games we also get the added benefit of keeping the assets to ourselves. If you don't want to spend anything in the OW that's fine and it's your choice and it just means you won't be able to collect anything better than T0's.

[half crow]

And ofc we are a P2E project lol...

Do you think my land will generate fuel by itself if I don't actively play in it? Will I have the chance to capture and own a rhamphyre if I don't travel to a high stage OW region? If this isn't the definition of play to earn I don't know what is.

Obviously having an ever growing playerbase is part of the equation but that's not all. The notion that just because the game is P2E everyone will be profitable is absurd... Many will make bad decisions and not make up for their expenses. They'll lose battles, use incorrect tier shards, won't use the appropriate drone upgrades to maximize profits, etc... Not to mention that there's also a learning curve figuring out the game and knowing how to actually be profitable.

[cunning idol]

the only demand for illuvials is arena, why would people spend so much on illuvials if theres no reward?

rewards is how P2E is possible

[cunning idol]

we only had 2.8K players out 10K codes and we are paying them

[half crow]

and?

[cunning idol]

arena leaderboard 270 out of 1K

do u know why axie, pixels, big time and parallel are P2E?

[half crow]

no, do tell me.

[cunning idol]

because they are paying the players with token

[half crow]

amazing

and here I was thinking that it's because the games are such dog sh1t that no one would play them unless they got paid.

[cunning idol]

explain to me why only 270 people in arena leaderboard

[half crow]

I'm done explaining everything to you guys. Got more things to do.

[thick loom]

You speak nonsense once again. A game is a game, doesnt matter web2 or web3. To say with absolute certainty the model is going to pop off is delusional at best. I dont even know how to respond to this, as as usual for your messages, it's mostly wrong. Valuable assets don't have to be paywalled lol... they can be gated by skill, effort and time, which is usually much better. I'm not saying our model won't work or that I wont spend in OW, I'm saying I have doubts if the mainstream gamers would. Many great games, have failed in the past for many different reasons, our model can be one. Now before you go ballistic again, I'm not saying it would, I'm saying its possible (in my opinion). Time will tell.

[half crow]

yes I know @thick loom I only say nonsense and it's mostly wrong. I'll leave the thread to you guys. Have fun.

[thick loom]

Another nonsense here, yes ILVZ is the only game considered play to earn.

By your example it is play to OWN not play to EARN. You can capture a ramphyre eventually, but how many runs have you done prior to that you didnt? To be play to earn, you must be earning more than you are spending, which will not be the case for most. What you describe is play to own not play to earn.

[half crow]

I'm sorry, I should have said it's play to earn for me. An expense for you normies.

[thick loom]

But it isnt since you will be net negative in the end 😆

Not everyone owns t4 land to fuel their runs, to base off your arguements on the game on that is just moronic

[half crow]

the one who laughs last laughs best✌️

[cunning idol]

with the current fuel production, a T4 (daily) doesnt get u a S3 run

[thick loom]

Even so, the bro is arguing as if every single player will have access to t4 lol, mind blown

[cunning idol]

even if T4 earns $10/day, its gonna take 1300 days to break even at current floor price

[thick loom]

Yep forget about the spending part, we are earniiiing

[glad gorge]

Play to earn is a horrible term

Makes the average person think if they pay $5 they’ll likely get $10 back.

Some will profit but most will not and will be spending their money to enjoy a gaming experience

[glad gorge]

Very encouraging Jonny.
You’ve shown that you get it in terms of average spend and also a small premium for ownership and being able to recoup some of your cost (for most).

[glad gorge]

Having a high level high stat illuvial is valuable in overworld to win battles, not just arena and any further downstream games (kart/FPS etc)

[glad gorge]

Jaganite your preferred economic model would be a disaster on many levels.

[glad gorge]

But for the vast majority of players, that’s not the expectation. It’ll be more like pay $10 and get $5 in return.

They know they’ve got ownership of their assets and can sell for a perectange of their original cost upon leaving the ecosystem.

The lucky few and the most skilful will get a rare illuvial that they can sell for a profit.

The small possibility of capturing a rare one will keep people plowing money in, both enjoying the game whilst doing so and hoping it pays off for the big one.

A bit like that feeling of ‘always one more’ pack of Pokémon cards to find the shiny charizard.

Maybe even on average less than $5 for paying $10, so if there’s only a small percentage of a profit and it’s really about enjoying the game and the premium of ownership, then we should price the game, as Jonny said, based on the average gamer spend with a small ownership premium.

[topaz trench]

Should have been clear I'm talking about the average players spend not the mean. Whales can skew the mean a lot. But remember also the treasury seeks to increase its share by buying back ILV and Overworld is not the only source of revenue. For example we expect a healthy chunk from Zero and lesser but notable revenue from Beyond and Market fees.

I expect early days the mean will be far far higher but ultimately growing the IP requires a wide player base.

In any case I imagine we will learn a lot over the next 6-12 months and that data will serve us better than my idle thoughts 😉

[cedar valley]

that sounds like expensive builders