#OW Shards: should they break or not?

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supple shuttle
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First, I extend my heartfelt congratulations to the entire team for the remarkable strides made in PB4. If we maintain this trajectory, achieving mainstream success seems not just plausible but inevitable, in my humble opinion. Kudos!

Now, onto the crux of the matter. There's a pivotal issue in PB4 where our internal team could greatly benefit from community input: should shards be allowed to break?

A T1-T5 shard costs:

  • Time
  • Hyperion
  • Crypton (albeit indirectly, as players expend resources traveling and seeking better shards in higher-tier locations).

While we currently operate on the testnet where monetary concerns are sidelined, and as active members of the community, we might exhibit a bias favoring the ecosystem, it's crucial to consider the perspective of future mainnet users. These newcomers won't likely tolerate the loss of their valuable time and hard-earned money due to RNG (Random Number Generation) mishaps preventing them from acquiring the illuvial they earnestly seek.

When a player fails to capture an illuvial, they not only lose time and resources but also risk a discouraging cascade of failed attempts that could ultimately lead them to abandon the game out of frustration.

Analogously, we must ensure that illuvials aren't too easily captured; their scarcity imbues them with value for obvious reasons. Thus, a balance must be struck, with capture difficulty and investment commensurate with the inherent preciousness of these creatures.

In essence, we cannot afford to be excessively stringent, nor can we afford to be overly lenient. Our task is to pinpoint the optimal level of challenge and commitment required for illuvial capture. As beta testers, it is our duty to assist the internal team on this matter. They have requested us to be vocal on this, so please consider this thread for such topic.

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My Opinion/Proposal:

I firmly advocate for imbuing gameplay with a sense of risk and challenge, as I believe it significantly enhances player retention. When players overcome daunting tasks, they experience a profound sense of accomplishment, enriching their overall gaming experience and bolstering the value of the ecosystem. However, it's imperative that we strike a balance, ensuring that the toll exacted by challenges isn't prohibitively high. While players strive for major milestones, providing them with intermittent victories is crucial to sustaining their engagement and keeping their dopamine levels replenished.

Personally, I find the mechanic of shard breakage to be particularly compelling, as it amplifies the thrill and uncertainty inherent in capturing an illuvial. That said, I acknowledge that there's ample room for improvement in the capture sequence, particularly in terms of sound effects (SFX) and user experience (UX/UI). However, I'll refrain from delving into that topic, as it's tangential to our current discussion. Here's my proposal for mitigating the toll of failed captures and incorporating "mini-wins" for players:

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  • Shards should retain the possibility of being recovered after breaking, offering players a consolation prize and enhancing their sense of accomplishment. Introducing drone augmentations that increase the likelihood of shard recovery could further amplify this "mini-win" factor.

  • While maintaining a high level of capturing difficulty, players should have the option to expend extra dimensional stability once per encounter to enhance the effectiveness of their shards. This injects an element of strategic decision-making, empowering players while preserving the element of randomness. Providing players with the opportunity to boost shard efficacy represents another avenue for delivering "mini-wins."

  • It's imperative to reevaluate the cost of shards. Without precise knowledge of their real-world asset value, delving into specifics is challenging. However, I advocate for making shards highly affordable and disposable, ensuring that the failure to capture an illuvial doesn't carry an exorbitant real-world cost. This adjustment would shift the burden from monetary loss to increased gameplay investment, compelling players to invest more time in pursuit of their elusive targets.

  • Master shards, in their current form, are far too accessible. I propose increasing their cost to at least five times that of Tier 5 shards. The current design incentivizes whales to accumulate master shards at the expense of other tiers, exacerbating the pay-to-win (P2W) dynamic. By recalibrating shard costs, we can promote a more equitable playing field and mitigate the influence of financial advantage.

In summary, I advocate for enhancing capture difficulty, substantially reducing shard costs, empowering player agency, and retaining the mechanic of shard breakage. These adjustments promise to enrich the gaming experience, foster player engagement, and uphold the integrity of the ecosystem.

mild tree
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I rather have more shards that break than searching longer for ones that dont break.

sacred panther
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I like shards breaking. Just the capture odds are so low compared to what they were. Not only that it costs way too much hyperion to cure the shards.

I feel like if the capture odds stay as they are there should be like shard dusts when the drone fails to capture or an increased capture chance per failed attempt on that specific illuvial with that specific shard tier.

supple shuttle
mild tree
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shard dust and master shard are OP no?

wooden flare
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Shouldn't break. They've already decreased rate of capture.

The last thing we want is people spending money, and ending up with not only nothing but less than what they started. Imagine they buy shards on the dex, do battles, don't catch anything as they were unlucky and they lost money on both the shards and the run. There will be some serious conplaints.

If the shards break. It gets closer towards gambling. Am i risking this shard that has moentary worth for a 53% chance for an illuvial that has a higher worth? Or potentially ending up with nothing

wooden flare
mild tree
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More risk = more fun

supple shuttle
mild tree
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And its not like a casino machine where ILV always wins

supple shuttle
graceful harness
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I feel like Master Balls shouldn't be buyable at all. Rather they should be rare Event rewards for active players (like a handful lucky ones per quarter).

I do disagree with the breaking of shards too, if not at least 80% is regained as shards. We already have a new layer of RNG with the randomized Illuvium stats, things shouldn't be too tiring on a bad luck streak.

umbral quest
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If you don't want it to break ensure you use one with 99% chance.

wooden flare
graceful harness
burnt sierra
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My opinion:

After 2 days of playing I burned 35k hyperion and 15k crypton. First day playing tier 0, then just tier 1. And yesterday tier 2 regions.

The cost are to high, for tier 1 and shards curing, a normal web2 person won’t spend 100-200$ for 2 days of playing. I hope this prices are not final and will be updated.

And when you pay so much for curing the shard its more painful to lose it. If the cost werent so high, it wouldnt matter that much.

I would prefer that tier 1 would be cheaper, the other ones ok, everyone can decide for theirself.

pearl stump
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Here are my thoughts on shards with how theyre currently setup:

  1. Low capture rate makes lower tier shards useless

Having a base of 30-35% capture rate for a same tier shard to capture the same tier'd illuvial that is STAGE 1, makes the same-tier shard practically useless. Behavior would be to use the next tier or even next 2 level tier shards.

Most encounters would only get you 1 or 2 chances to capture an illuvial. 3 if youre highly optimized but when youre starting, thats not gonna happen easily. So why roll the dice on a low capture rate shard?

  1. Heavy reliance on Master Shard for T4 and T5 illuivals regardless of stages

An unintended consequence of the low capture is that theres no recourse to have a higher capture rate for T4 and T5 except to just use master shards.

  1. Drone Upgrade for Capture Power is too expensive and long to make

The benefit-cost ratio of crafting the capture power drone upgrade from basic to advance and worse supreme, is disproportionate (in my opinion). Its much faster and more effecient to focus on capturing illvuials with higher tier shards and master shards. This opens up to build more important drone upgrades like encounter cost, mining/harvest cost etc.

My suggestion here is to tweak the base capture rate then lower the difference from the tier shards and increase the efficiency of capture drones and/or lower its cost to make.

Ex. T1 shard to T1 illuvial would be 50% base. Using a T2 shard makes it 65%. T3 80%. Using a drone upgrade makes it like your using a next level shard as well.

Also, fuel price for shard curing should be lower if were keeping the mechanic of shard braking. And that should be percentage base say 20-25% of the time. Varies higher if a low tier shard is being used to capture a higher tier illuvial

wary thunder
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No, this is a terrible mechanic from a player perspective.

  • You're paying to do mining runs to get shards, then you're paying more to cure them (or you're buying them off the market, so same thing)
  • You're paying to do capture runs, during which the illuvials you encounter are not only random, but also subject to a bonding curve which affects what you can find. Meaning you may only see the ones you want once every 2, 3, 5 or even 10 runs.
  • You have a less than 50% base capture chance, meaning you have to pay to buy/make equipment to boost it.
  • If you manage to catch the illuvial, it's stats are randomly chosen. If you want a good one you're likely to have to catch a lot of them. Meaning paying for lots of more runs.

I fail to see how shards breaking is in any way a positive thing to this type of gameplay.
If anything I'd say it's a surefire way to drive players away.

lavish void
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@frank flint recommended an interesting idea on The Download this week about this topic. His idea was essentially have a nq (normal quality) and hq (high quality) shard where the nq can break but is cheap to make and hq can't break but is more expensive. I also like the idea of even on a break having a way to reform the shard.

graceful harness
frank flint
pearl stump
frank flint
supple shuttle
# pearl stump Here are my thoughts on shards with how theyre currently setup: 1. Low capture ...

I agree with the shard tier issue.

Actually, ever since I realized that the dimensional stability you pay per attempt is not shard dependant, but illuvial MP cost dependant, I find myself only using T3-4-5 and master shards and I have over 100 T0-1-2 shards never used.

This is a problem that will be slightly mitigated once shards cost real money.

However, I have a proposal to encourage players to use all type of shards. I would make that Tier "X" shards excell at capturing Tier "X" illuvials, meaning that a tier 2 shard will have more odds of capturing a tier 2 illuvial than a tier 4 shard.

With this, we encourage players to use shards more distributedly and also they get rewarded by selecting the shard that best fits the illuvial tier.

Additionally, I think there should be a shard limit that you can carry per run. This would make resource expenditure more interesing on each travel.

I am tagging @formal garnet and @barren snow just so they are aware of the existence of this thread.

waxen forge
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I'd like to see leave it as is but have a failed capture increase the chance of the next shard to capture. Meaning spamming 30-60% shards more viable and useful

sacred panther
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I am going to submit my feedback later today in-game but here are some of my thoughts regarding this topic.

Basically @pearl stump nailed it. But one problem I find is the stage 1 illuvials capture chance being to similar to a stage 3 and I think that's how we solve the problem.
If we increase the capturing chance for stage 1 and a bit for stage 2 it should do the trick.

Another thing we could add is giving shard dust when the drone fails to capture, but only when the illuvial is inside the drone for a while, if the drone instantly fails to capture then it would be a lost shard with no dust.
To accommodate for this we could increase the number of shard dusts to cure a master shard to 100 instead of 80 as well.

Not related to shards, but on a final note the drone upgrades are very little fun and engaging. How do you expect players do spend solon with this system? It's not only too expensive it lacks collectiveness.
The drone upgrades needs a lot more work and depth, and I don't mean on the art side, that is great.
Here's a suggestion, add +1 random mod per stage. Meaning a stage 3 drone upgrade would have 3 random mods. And lower their cost so players can craft more of them.

tall cloak
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Totally agree just give 2x more shards at half price and have them break at 50% chance. Long term it does nothing monetary but adds to the suspense.

supple shuttle
sacred panther
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After 2 days of playing I don't think we need more shards at all.

image.png
winged spade
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Imo the way it is at the moment is 100% not a good player experience at all. Who says different I don’t think played enough or had 3-4 fails in a row with the same illuvial in the same capture sequence. I see 2 potential fixes:

  1. Either make the shards unbreakable but with a way lower spawn rate in deposits
  2. Keep them as they are but make the capture chance for its correspondent Tier at least 50% (ex. Tier 1 shard -> base 50% chance to capture a Tier 1 Illuvial)

Another issue I see at the moment is the Hyperion cost and use. It’s by far the most used fuel. I think I have used 5x times more Hyperion than Crypton + Solon. But I think this is another discussion and it’ll go in my comprehensive feedback.

sacred panther
winged spade
sacred panther
winged spade
sacred panther
winged spade
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Okay here we go again 😄 ... where you can't accept different opinions 😄 we need to do this more often i think ..
I just said that ... take away the cost or everything else, make it a free game it still doesn't feel good for me

sacred panther
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For you it's bad player experience for me it's part of the grind and what makes the game economy whole.

winged spade
sacred panther
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this is the thing to me. We all have our opinions but we also all have different backgrounds.

supple shuttle
winged spade
sacred panther
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I'll say it again you guys want it all.

supple shuttle
winged spade
sacred panther
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the hyperion cost is obviously too high... I think that's clear

sacred panther
sacred panther
tall cloak
winged spade
sacred panther
sacred panther
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But yeah we're talking about spending like 1k+ in 2 days in a game. 🤯

supple shuttle
sacred panther
wary thunder
# tall cloak Totally agree just give 2x more shards at half price and have them break at 50% ...

You're overlooking thee fact that breakable shards means you potentially lose more than just the shards.
You could in theory go into a stage 3 run for 2500 crypton, spend all of your energy and 10-15 high level shards and walk away with nothing because of bad luck.

And considering OW has consistently been describes as a "gamified card pack opening" that doesn't match at all with the current gameplay.

What we have now is nothing but a gambling game.

supple shuttle
sacred panther
sacred panther
wary thunder
wary thunder
supple shuttle
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The only drawback I am conceiving as unnecessary is the shard being able to break for no apparent reason. The player doesnt have any intel on the odds or why it breaks and it has no counterplay via augments or strategy.

For the rest, you already know my views on the first comment on this thread.

sacred panther
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@wary thunder what you think of the idea of giving shard dust when the drone fails to capture? But only when the illuvial is inside the drone for a while, if the drone instantly fails to capture then it would be a lost shard with no dust.

supple shuttle
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I think you are not understanding what I say. When you use a shard, you can fail in both ways. Shard breaks pre-capture and shard fails to capture.

First the shard has a chance of breaking, thus not even reaching the capturing attempt. Notice that sometimes the shard breaks and the drone hasnt even sucked in the illuvial.

That is the first mechanic, the one that I am complaining about as there is no counterplay for it and no maths known behind it. It just happens and its a factor that can upset players as they are losing opportunities and money and they just ignore the likelihood and dont have any means to mitigate this.

Now, the second mechanic is the shard and its capturing odds, no comments on that part.

sacred panther
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And I don't see a need to implement a counter-play to that. It's just a % chance of happening.

supple shuttle
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The shard is always lost (broken) since last patch that took place a few days before pb4.

When I say it breaks, I am not referring as it being consumed forever, but the fact that, on the capturing attempt, there is a likelihood that the shard breaks even before sucking the illuvial in.

dire prism
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maybe the chance to catch should go up with each fail

supple shuttle
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That Imo is bad experience and design, needs to be addressed

sacred panther
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This seems one of those things that could go for the drone upgrades if we want to add more depth to it. Not sure we need to address it that badly.

supple shuttle
sacred panther
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But isn't this deviating from the idea topic?

supple shuttle
sacred panther
supple shuttle
sacred panther
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unless you say one case breaks the shard and the other doesn't

wary thunder
# sacred panther <@229664910345240578> what you think of the idea of giving shard dust when the d...

So what you're saying is:
If you succeed in the capture, the shard remains intact and now contains the illuvial, so it can't be used for capturing anymore, but rather to summon the illuvial.
If you fail the capture after the illuvial is sucked into the drone the shard shatters and gives you dust.
If you fail to even suck the illuvial into the drone the shard is vaporized?

I don't see why it should function like that.
To me that's just yet another layer of unneccesary randomness.

sacred panther
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this would help mitigate the negative feeling when you don't capture something.

wary thunder
sacred panther
wary thunder
sacred panther
wary thunder
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I've yet to see a game where you buy a lootbox that has a 50% chance of it's contents being vaporized upon opening it

sacred panther
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Here's my suggestion for the capturing chances

image.png
sacred panther
sacred panther
wary thunder
sacred panther
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you usually get 1-3 capture chances per encounter

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and you can convert them to dust, I wouldn't call them useless at all.

wary thunder
sacred panther
# wary thunder I'm a collector, not a gambler.

lol. This has nothing to do with gambling. You just say that because it costs real world money, if it was a normal game no one would care, it's simply the price of doing business. If shards don't break you're basically saying that for every shard in existence there will be one illuvial. And that simply inflates the whole economy as time passes by, making everything lose value.

wary thunder
sacred panther
# wary thunder

haha fine in that sense ofc it's gamble, illuvials are worth real money.

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you can call all web3 cryto games gambling with that mindset.

wary thunder
frank flint
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Its worth mentioning that 'collectors' are 'gamblers'. To collect is to gamble. Trust me I've had enough rare and valuable Pop Vinyls be destroyed by water damage 🤣 .

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Obviously its a vast generalisation. But I'd say 'gamers' aren't 'gamblers' but typically 'collectors' are. Obviously it doesn't go for everyone

tall cloak
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I actually like the master shard idea, but account bound/non-nft. Like an iteration of pity timer.
Many games have a similar mechanic. Like Hearthstone is guaranteed to drop you a leggy in every 40 packs(200 cards).

You fail to catch 100 T3 illuvials using at least a T3 shard, you get a pity timer master shard that can catch a T3.

I really think in order master shards to not be abused they should be tier specific. Otherwise people can just farm the master shars by intentionally using lower tier shards.
Failing a 100 T5 captures giving you a rhamphyre (if you find it) seems not that unreasonable.

ocean hornet
wary thunder
# frank flint Its worth mentioning that 'collectors' are 'gamblers'. To collect is to gamble. ...

I feel there's some really flawed logic there.
First, there's a big difference being a collector in a pokemon game (where you have a one-time cost of 70$ to buy the game, then you basically collect for free as long as the game is functional) and a game where you basically pay in the range of 10-50$ per attempt at catching something.

As for vinyls... You choosing to store your records in a location where there's risk of water damage is a whole different type of gamble. So not really a good example to make your point.

frank flint
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I was just having some fun guys chill 🤣 . But to Dr Spoons point, my entire point was that life is a gamble

tribal warren