Make Ascendant Arena F2P once the OB ends

[lapis tundra]

This is very straightforward. We need to have one web2 game mode and one web3 game mode for every game the studio creates.

Limiting the access to the Ascendant Arena by needing the NFTs is bad game design. We should be limiting the access to ILV rewards not the game itself.

Not only that, having a F2P version of the game would remove the need to implement weekly free rotations of illuvials.

We let the players get hooked by trying the F2P version of the game and entice them to go P2W with the ILV rewards.

The ascendant arena would work similar to the F2P Gauntlet where having the illuvial NFT would give that illuvial a cosmetic differentiation, also showing if the player owns a holo or dark holo.

[tired tendon]

You are crazy ! I do not agree with your proposal.

[lapis tundra]

I know I am. But why don't you like the idea?

[tired tendon]

No I don't like this idea

[lapis tundra]

because?

[tired tendon]

You will kill the value of our illuvials

[lapis tundra]

is that so? So what is leviathan arena for?

[tired tendon]

It's not the same thing It's for the whales

[lapis tundra]

why is it only for the whales? Illuvials having stats is for the entire web3 community

[tired tendon]

We need whale money

[lapis tundra]

funny that you'll get whale money from playing the OW

[tired tendon]

The statistics of the illuvial max is very rare$

I think you don't really understand what leviathan mode is

[lapis tundra]

haha

[lapis tundra]

I think your underestimating me a lot. Why are you assuming that everyone will run max stat illuvials?

[tired tendon]

I don't speak English so I avoid speaking 😅 leviathan mode is unbalanced illuvials max statistics have an advantage in combat (very rare to capture 'will sell for too much for the average player)

@viper_ilv Help me

@autumn temple 🙏

[lapis tundra]

yes that's true, but that will be the illuvials that everyone will capture from the OW. So saying it's just for whales seems a bit disingenuous

[autumn temple]

The random stats won’t matter in ascendant arena, they are normalized, every titanor eg will have the same stats.

I don’t like the idea of a god account f2p ascendant arena either, the whole ecosystem is build around arena being a use case for our nfts so that seems like a likely issue causing change at this stage.
Further it takes the whole collectible case out of the game for arena players, which seems bad as well.

[lapis tundra]

ugh whats leviathan arena then? If not the whole reason to collect illuvials?

[autumn temple]

The random stats will matter there, this is a big difference to owning a insert Illuvial and owning a maxed random stats one.

Your idea essentially makes the 1v1 game mode with nfts less accessible to the masses, as you want illuvials with maxed stats, not just any copy for it.

[lapis tundra]

well isn't that already the case with leviathan??

I would even go further has to not require the NFTs in leviathan either and have them be available with standard stats

[autumn temple]

Leviathan has always been said to be the whale game mode, while ascendant is the accessible competive ranked

[autumn temple]

I think changing from a collectible game with ownership to a pure cosmetic one is unwise in terms of having value and use cases for the owned nfts.

[lapis tundra]

I get your view, but that's only for the ascendant more. My idea would be to make the 1v1 mode like the 8v8.

And the use cases for the illuvials will come from having multiple games. Not by limiting access to the games.

[tired tendon]

Thank you viper you are my hero every time🎮❤️

[autumn temple]

I understand you advocate for making nfts cosmetics only, I don’t think this is a wise idea, as for once the economy and games haven’t been build either that in mind, so changing monetization shortly before testnet seems like a tough task.
Outside of this hurdle you again take out the whole collectible case for arena players, not everyone will be more happy if everyone has god accounts, the recent arena beta has shown that eg.

If everyone has god accounts, you will see far less variety in a game eg.

You also take out the economy and 2nd market side of arena which is arguably a very good feature

[lapis tundra]

The title clearly says after OB tho. But fine.
It's not that I think everyone should have a god account. Is more that blocking access to games by not having NFTs is bad game design.

[autumn temple]

Why is needing to have ingame items to play the game bad design?

[lapis tundra]

what are you even talking about? The economy will be driven by the leviathan mode not the ascendant

[lapis tundra]

very simple, you don't give players a chance to experience your game.

[autumn temple]

You said you prefer leviathan to be god account as well above.
Further leviathan is intended for whales not average spender.
So this again is rethinking entire economy.

[autumn temple]

Illuvium arena has lots of free to play access.
You will have a free rotation and t0 illuvials are free, further you can play stage 0 Overworld and sell items to buy things of the marketplace.

[tired tendon]

Leviathan mode will give some players the chance to sell illuvial rare max stats👀🍾🍾

[autumn temple]

Also survival will still be there and f2p, people can certainly play the game and test it a lot before having to commit money.

[lapis tundra]

Fair enough

Btw @autumn temple thanks for the reasoning. You brought good points I agree with.

[prime vale]

This makes Overworld meaningless to play

[lapis tundra]

That's not so. Illuvials have stats. You'll grind the OW to get the best illuvials for the Leviathan mode.

I've come to terms with this with what Viper said. The auto-battler has a lot of modes for players to try even for free. And I also don't like the idea of giving God mode to players.

But my thesis still stands for future games there should be a F2P and a P2W game mode always.

[prime vale]

I'm not confident Leviathan will be that popular to begin with if I'm honest I could see it being dead content if there isn't a twist or a pull if you will to get people to play it now that wagering isn't a possibility. Even if it is Overworld looks like it will be the most popular game at launch and when OW players dont have anyone to sell their illuvials to because not only is there only one game that can even use illuvials were also making it where it is f2p for the most popular game mode. That's a recipe for disaster imo. Could definitely hurt the ecosystem in an unrecoverable way when you look at it from that angle but I could definitely be wrong.

[lapis tundra]

well we just need to make the rewards more appealing for Leviathan to justify the OW grind.

[prime vale]

I think even if you make Leviathan attractive theres nothing you can do to stop people from preferring an even playing field when it comes to competitive gaming

[lapis tundra]

oh sure, but there's also a lot of P2W players out there

[prime vale]

People are always going to prefer Ascendant over any PW2 competitive game mode for any game is always the least played

[lapis tundra]

We'll see about that. I can understand regarding players preferring to play on a plain level field. But we'll all be grinding illuvials for their stats. I think we're undervaluing the potential Leviathan has.

Give Leviathan mode double the rewards the Ascendant mode has and we'll see which game mode is more appealing.

[lapis tundra]

And just to be perfectly clear. I think what you're saying will only be the case for players that only play arena and not the OW. Everyone who is smart and grinds the OW, at least early on, will eventually be a "whale" inside the Illuvium ecosystem.

And the Leviathan mode is not just about better rewards. Are you telling me that you'll be grinding the OW to catch the best illuvials just to then go play with them having normalized stats?? I know I won't. Where's the fun in that?

[prime vale]

I'm personally not interested in the stats of illuvials at all only holos because I dont think many people will be playing leviathan lol

id love to be wrong tho

[lapis tundra]

Well so do I since stats is what actually gives OW replayability.

That and holos yes. But if you only need 1 of each illuvial to play, no matter its stats. Once you capture all of them you lose the drive to travel to the OW.

[lapis tundra]

Not to mention the tournaments. I think Leviathan tournaments will be muuuch more fun than Ascendant ones. Here's why. Ascendant game mode will always be a rock-paper-scissors game. You can fiddle around with the positioning and what not but it's pretty much set who wins. Now with Leviathan game mode it opens the possibility for a rock team to beat a paper team, or a scissor team to beat a rock team due to the illuvials stats.

[prime vale]

I think it would work out differently in reality. One person would simply have the best illuvials and win before the match even starts creating an extremely boring esport. I think using stats for esports is a bad decision personally.

[lapis tundra]

you're assuming there's going to be one individual with all maxed out illuvials while others have weak illuvials. That will take a while to happen, and a lot of capital. And when it happens there will be more than one. Not only that it makes you strategize your teams around your strongest illuvials instead of making the perfect combo teams.

Again, no one knows and you're probably right with the normalized stats for esports. But I do think Leviathan tournaments will be a lot of fun. But maybe that's just me, thinking with my "whale" mindset.

[prime vale]

I come with the perspective of web2 esports and web3 is completely uncharted territory and we have no idea what to expect. It could turn out you're completely right and I hope you are 😂

[autumn temple]

depending on how expensive leviathan teams are the "leviathan tournament" would be same players who perform well in ascendant, but now have investment companies/sponsors backing them or have personally enough money to afford this

the main difference would be the avg joe wouldn´t be able to partake or even try to, esport often is seen as something everyone can take part in as the barrier to entry in almost every game is low enough for every person, who is good enough in the game, for leviathan those people would need to have prior resume like things and still need to find sponsors, which makes that barrier far higher than in any A+ tier esport I can think of atm

leviathan is like the game mode most of web2 wouldn´t consider a competitive esport, due to the high pay 2 win nature

[lapis tundra]

yeah I agree. Ascendant mode is the mode for esport alright, makes total sense. We want players to play on a plain level field. However, I see the big money tourneys being leviathan.

[autumn temple]

Money in esport comes from how many people want to watch it, I am not sure if mroe people would want to watch something they can´t ever partake in or copy or dream about, that is usually not the case.

[lapis tundra]

Hmmm not so sure about that one. Usually ppl don't watch the avg joe. They like to watch the best of the best. But I get your point of watching something you have no chance in partaking.

[autumn temple]

Yeah, but they watch the best of the best and then copy their champs or decks, they can´t do that with leviathan

[lapis tundra]

Hmmm yes, fair enough. But there's also ppl who watch and don't play anymore. I don't play LoL anymore but I still like to watch some games.

Also, it's not an esport but get me a poker player that doesn't like to watch high-stakes poker

[autumn temple]

you still play the same game, poker cost to entry is same no matter the amount of money people bet

[lapis tundra]

isn't Leviathan the same game as well? I feel like your argument falls short here. Players will be able to copy Leviathan decks despite their stats being normalized. Not only that, unlike web2, web3 is all about ownership and who owns the best assets. That's why I think Leviathan will be a thing.