Illuvium Zero PVP Raids - Community Feedback

[fiery helm]

This thread is intended to gauge community sentiment about PVP Raids in Illuvium Zero.

Now is the time to share as much feedback as we possible can in order to assist the team designing the best version of IZ.

What's your opinion on this topic? 👍 or 👎 ?

[lilac flower]

I have one suggestion, but I think someone may have brought this up already (it may even be addressed in the next update): https://discord.com/channels/760344898200666112/1228096804944347136

[fiery helm]

Msg from @vocal patrol :
#1228121146902184037 message

This land PVP raiding idea most likely arose from some team members playing Mavia recently.

• Firstly, I'd like to emphasize that this 'stockpile' system probably won't be an appealing feature for F2P players since it will cost fuel for both attacking and defending.

• Secondly, the city building layout in Mavia differs significantly, incorporating defense turrets and walls, elements absent in IZ.

• Thirdly, even if the raiding feature is 'opt-in,' it's probable that after experiencing several losses, the majority will opt-out, resulting in only a few engaging in raids among themselves. This is what's happening in Mavia currently, where the game has become somewhat stagnant.

"This sort of opt in raiding that ties to the Illuvials and the autobattle would have significant benefits for the ecosystem. Without forcing players into raiding gameplay if they lacked interest." - Ben | Illuvium

I also wonder what would these "significant benefits for the ecosystem" be.

[chilly pagoda]

viable input, and the problem already got solved for beta version.
See my comment in there

[lilac flower]

I am not sure I like the idea of base raiding

[fiery helm]

if this raiding system is the first solution the team has come up with to improve the F2P landplots experience, I'm personally a bit disappointed.

[waxen obsidian]

Do you think they are already implementing it?

[fiery helm]

I would much rather see things like the gym/training grounds or a quest hub being pushed to create incentives and increase the value proposition of all landplots.

[fiery helm]

no idea

[lilac flower]

Yeah, I think the fact that the resources on these plots are effectively = cash/profits should eliminate the idea of raids. That is a recipe for disaster imo. I get that raiding is cool and all, but...

[fiery helm]

Maybe it's better if we focus the thread just on the PVP raiding instead of it being so broad. That way the community can show if they like the idea or not with a 👍 or 👎

Illuvium Zero PVP Raids - Community Feedback

[stone zenith]

At one point I had the opinion that I didn't care either way as long as it was opt in or out. The more I think on it though the less I like the idea. I do think that it would be good if land had improved playing, more things that can be done with it. However, I think we should leave battling to Arena and give land a whole different kind of experience as a way to keep different types of players happy in Illuvium. We dont want every game we build appealing to the same person. We want every game to appeal to a different play style to increase our numbers and retention.

[lilac flower]

I like the idea of opt in or opt out. I don't want to prevent others from enjoying it if its their thing. I just want the option to avoid it if possible. Great point you make there

[stone zenith]

The problem I now see with opt in or out is that it is either so beneficial that those who choose not to opt in are missing out or you make it have little benefit and then people won't be playing it and it will be a waste of time and resources. Neither is a good scenario. It may be something to put on the table later but for the first playable upgrade to land I think should be more cooperative and economic strategy based.🤔

[lilac flower]

I was just thinking about this too. If they can somehow balance that then it could work. However, you are right, if you are going to have raids, then it has to have some enticing aspect to it, which would probably result in very lucrative rewards, that would make people who were not initially interested, suddenly considering it. In many ways that is a form of punishment to those that opt out...

It is indeed an interesting challenge

[candid crescent]

It would be cooooool... have illuvials walking around the land, ready to defend against attacks. There could be weapon systems you could add for defense. Also... we have paths already... simple enough to make them into walls.

[waxen obsidian]

How would the fuel raid game play work for F2P players?

And if it doesn't work for F2P: Is it worth implementing for just 7.000+ land holders?

Also: Does it fit the current ethos of Zero, which is basically a peaceful slow casual constructive game.

Raids add a negative competitive aspect for a completely different kind of gamer type.

[candid crescent]

What if you don't raid for fuel... but instead raid for xp, or elements, or airdrop points?

[waxen obsidian]

XP might work, but airdrop points is just a temporary thing, of course there could always be a leaderboard with rewards for the best raider ...

But it is still a completely different kind of game play.

When you compare this with https://discord.com/channels/760344898200666112/1228121146902184037 then it becomes clear.

Leveling up Illuvials is the same kind of constructive game play as leveling up buildings, is slow and casual and doesn't take away from someone else.

[candid crescent]

Yes... totally get that.

Pokemon go offers an optional pvp component. Most people don't use it, but it def has its own niche playerbase. I think if there were some competitive element to zero there would be a good amount of ppl that play it. Some will want pure casual... others mixed competitive/casual.

[waxen obsidian]

We really need to have a discussion around what Zero wants to become in the future.

A game for the 7.000+ land holders or an OW companion/full experience app or something else?

If the plan is a Zero just for the few land holders then the future is bleak. Why would the DAO continue to invest in it?

You can see this in the comment from Ben #1228121146902184037 message

Aaron wants Illuvial leveling in the OW to make OW gamers open up OW regularly.

We land holders want it in Zero, to add value to land but also to F2P players, because we can also allow leveling of Illuvials on F2P land for those who don't own land.

Do we want to implement it in both games or do we have to choose?

Or is Zero for producing new assets e.g. ships?

[frozen frost]

Just a small correction, I proposed a simplified raids idea, and even did a mini-POC of it, about 2 years ago. Mavia might have added some additional visibility and push but we have been talking about various flavours of raids (in the public IZ channel) for a long long time.

Of course this doesn't mean it has to go in this direction, but an opt-in raids system just seems like a pretty logical place to take the game.

Very valid alternative to keep the more passive 'play for 10 minutes a day' type approach, with things like training gyms and ship factories.

As @waxen obsidian said: what do you want Zero to become?

[chilly pagoda]

Imo the route is clear, attract the masses with every game Illuvium develops, and i feel this can be done with and without PVP.
I myself would love Zero getting into a economical challenge where you have to optimize the city the best way you can, optimize the layout, play markets to maximize your profits, adapt to new economical challenges, trade with other landowners, prepare for possible natural disasters or wild illuvial raids.

But coming pack to pvp
I guess there are 2 kind of routes going with pvp, doing it COC style, where you have to be aware 24/7 for raids or do it in an organized way with guilds, where you can basically set a time and place where 2 guilds starting smash each other either in many 1vs1 battles or one big battle.

Also in terms of battle-systems, there are many to choose from. Are we doing it coc style, raiding with illuvials + defending bases with defensive structures.
Or is it more like a final fantasy or heroes of might and magic round based system with like 5 illuvials in 1 team in a simple designed 1vs1 battle.

In terms of loot/incentives, there could be many to choose from, some may open up some more questions but every problem has a solution, right? 🙂
Possible loot/incentives could be fuel, elements, blueprint-data... or you might just make it gather points for a leader-board where you can earn ilv out of in-game rewards pool

What everyone has to consider is, the more complex a PVP system gets, the more development time it needs and the longer we commit to a specific feature IZ is shaping.
If we now starting develop towards a coc/mavia clone, i can see the next couple of years all dev time being spent on realizing this vision, not exploring other cool stuff.

[hidden bone]

I think that if F2P players want it then have at it. I don't know what the DAO or land owners will get out of it though long term. Apart from having to spend time and resources repairing structure and building up the bounty.

[lilac flower]

If they do implement raiding, I hope when having your illuvials defend, they actually gain experience, etc.. This way it gets progressively more difficult to successfully be raided

[hidden bone]

It also skews off course from the lore we know so far. We don't experience raiders in the OW... So where are they when we are running around mining harvesting and collecting?

[lilac flower]

very good question. In my opinion, I think there should be much more added to the levels of a very deep and engaging city builder (if it makes sense from a lore standpoint). The main under current must remain resource production, sustaining and optimization.

However, it would not hurt to add some fun side things to do that may or may not affect resource production.

In my mind, it should be capable of entertaining you beyond just the investment aspects

Don't ask me how yet, but I do have some ideas, but I have to continue brain storming to see if it makes sense 😄

[hidden bone]

If we have raiders in Zero then we need them in OW. That would make OW more interesting and challenging for sure.

[safe quarry]

I agree with the passive ness. I've said we should be able to passively generate illuvials like setting traps for them and things like in pokemon. I agree pvp dosnt sound good with that many player and land isn't good enough to sell more plots

[candid crescent]

Boils down to If a well though out raid proposal can be made and if the majority wants it to be or not. We can debate all day... but I know I'd like some kind of pvp element in zero... I just don't know if the majority would. I'm a visual guy so seeing some visual examples are better than only reading theory.

[fiery helm]

Before I answer what I would like Illuvium Zero to become, let's first go over what it actually is.

Illuvium Zero is a chill PVE city-builder game centered around optimizing your landplot for economic resource extraction. This is what every landowner was sold.

That being said, I believe our primary focus should be on polishing the game as much as possible before considering any new game modes or significant changes. If the team wants to add PVP raids later down the line, that's fine. However, the fact that this would be an optional game feature already speaks volumes about the game impact it would have.

Now, to answer your question: What would I like IZ to become? An engaging and fun game that makes me have to think a bit on how can I maximize my landplots. Do you know why people only play for 10 minutes of Zero once the landplot layout is complete? Because there are no dynamic variables built into it. All the strategic thinking happens during the initial landplot construction, and from there, it's a done deal.

In my opinion, this does not meet the definition of an engaging game. I envision something like daily/weekly dynamic events, variable extraction conditions, more structures with perks outside of IZ, or even some gacha mini-games.

[fiery helm]

This leads to another question and that is, if IZ is a PVE city-builder game centered around optimizing your landplot for economic resource extraction how then can we incentivize F2P players to play IZ when there is no economic incentive?

My answer to this would be:

• Adding social features, such as guilds and guild events.
• Weekly challenges/Leaderboards with fuel/ILV rewards for top players
• Cosmetic customization and possibly T0 blueprints
• Introducing features tied to perks outside IZ

[waxen obsidian]

Please have a look here and tell me what you think. #1228121146902184037 message

[fiery helm]

what's so 😂 and 🚫 about what I said @safe quarry?

[hidden bone]

What if raids we a feature utilizing the image and layout of unplayed/uninhabited Zero lands? It could be for F2P and P2E to compete. Firstly find the lands using some gamifide function. Mine sweeper comes to mind but I'm sure there are much better ideas out there. The first discoverer has the mission to find it and set up towers, fences, illuvial patrol guards for defence as well as mines and extractors etc to gain from the land. The loot can be provided by the DAO as it has the ability to print fuel etc. without effort. The raiders can pays an entry fee each round or it could be a seasonal pass to enable raid abilities.

.

Just spit balling. Need to think about it more.

[normal mountain]

I feel like it would bring IZ to a whole new level if PvP was there. Just allow the players to 'steal' the free resources, I think they're called elements(?) like carbon and not fuel and then there should be no issue imo. Comparing to clash of clans you're also only able to steal the free resources and not the gems in that sense

[fiery helm]

'stealing', 'raiding' for elements seems like a nothing burger imo.

[normal mountain]

Why is that? You can take this one step further and introduce a ranking system to get points based on wins and have some sort of leaderboard incentives as well. Furthermore some people maybe just would play more if they weren't just in a state where they log in once, do some things for 10 mins just to log in 10 hours later again

If it works for CoC for so many years, one shouldnt really invent the wheel fully new

[fiery helm]

ranking systems and leaderboards I'm more inclined to like than simply stealing elements.

[fiery helm]

CoC city layout is totally oriented for combat while IZ city layout is oriented for maximizing resource extraction

[normal mountain]

Well, if PvP was introduced, then of course the base somehow needs to be adjustable as well. Like what are defenses and attacking units anyway. All of this would need to get sorted out first. However, spending speedup items like gems or coins tend to make more sense on skipping time needed and not on resources. So if you can steal element resources this may lead to more people also spending coins for quick upgrades to skip time as well. Just want to throw out some ideas that pop up in my head

[fiery helm]

nobody bought land looking for that hustle, just my opinion.

I get that this would be an 'opt-in' feature. Still not really my cup of tea.

[normal mountain]

I would love to be able to 'do' more with my lands honestly. At some point its not a game anymore for me when i just need to log in twice a day for couple minutes.

[fiery helm]

I'm with you there

[chilly pagoda]

If pvp is coming, i guess it's more of a Feature for f2p due to reasons already mentioned, Like you have to build defensive structures and edit your Layout from most efficient for Profits to most efficient for defense, also people who bought Land probably rather have a continous Cash inflow than win or loose profits to others

[normal mountain]

In CoC they had shields or something where if you dont attack for 7d or whatever you also cannot be attacked. So that choice is given to the players

[fiery helm]

yes basically this PVP system would be for the F2P landplots, and maybe some T1s

[normal mountain]

Or you have 2 base layouts you can build. One is your farming layout and the second is the raid layout. And attacks happen on and with the raid layout

[fiery helm]

ok so let's imagine we copy CoC and have 2 land layouts. What would differentiate Illuvium from CoC or even Mavia?

[normal mountain]

Being in ILV ecosystem where fuels earns you money?

[chilly pagoda]

Possible way to do it.
Already mentioned we need an Editor Mode with different Layouts to save and for easy Building Layouts. Nobody in community not Team seemed to be intrested

[fiery helm]

that has nothing to do with raiding, you said it was for elements

[normal mountain]

I think land is designed to be a fuel producing machine and thats it at the current state

[fiery helm]

In my humble opinion we need to gamify the fuel extraction

[chilly pagoda]

Always behind in terms of features? 😂
They have 1 game, direct competitors are and will always be hard to beat

[chilly pagoda]

In my humble opinion, IZ should be something everybody im this ecosystem wants to play AT least casually because it gives him passive Progress, Like Training grounds, plant lab, health care center etc.

[normal mountain]

I havent played mavia. But according to what you say they are a copy of CoC currently?

[chilly pagoda]

1:1 clone

[fiery helm]

I'm 💯 with you in creating more features to give players incentives to play IZ. My only problem now is that F2P plots are equivalent to T2.

[chilly pagoda]

Yea, that should Change to Max 0.5 to Make implementations easy

[fiery helm]

The F2P plots have to have some type of premium systems that makes the players want to spend real fuel in it

like all the web2 games with P2W features

[chilly pagoda]

Totally, will start already with the speedups and builders in the shop

[fiery helm]

imagine the training grounds. To start renting their space to other players and earning real fuel, F2P landowners would have to build it using real fuel themselves.

otherwise it would just be F2P plots flooded with training grounds

just because a plot is F2P doesn't mean it shouldn't have P2E features

[chilly pagoda]

Absolutely, they are just Hard to implement without calling bots on the plan to Drive the value of the Feature asymptotic to 0

[normal mountain]

So, what is the incentive of mavia then? 😄

[chilly pagoda]

Play to earn i guess

[fiery helm]

I actually think we struck gold with the illuvial training idea.

we can make a player-driven economy game with this

[chilly pagoda]

Many more to be implemented 🙃

[fiery helm]

different tiers of gyms with different bonuses for different illuvial lines, open up way for a diverse market

[normal mountain]

So the key is to connect OW elements to IZ?

[fiery helm]

let's put our 🧠 into it

[fiery helm]

I do think this is an answer yes.

For example, there could be a building in IZ that gives a slight boost to the OW runs of the corresponding region. Increased accuracy on the heatmap or slight increased % in finding higher tier illuvials in that area.

This building could be something like an observatory for example and would add one more layer of utility to land and could even be used by the F2P landplots, with a reduced bonus %.

[normal mountain]

Thats a possibility to go forward for a better interconnected ecosystem. However, I feel like we need a bigger focus on IZ as a solo game for those people who only play on their phone.

[chilly pagoda]

Not only OW, but every game

[fiery helm]

Yes I agree, not only integrating IZ more with other games but making IZ more gamified to me would be the way to go.

Something like, daily/weekly events where for example one day the power grid as a malfunction and all power stations only work at a reduced % and you have to adjust your land layout to keep maximizing your resource extraction. This is just an idea.

[woeful olive]

If any of you guys has played Lords Mobile, Kingdoms of Heckfire, whiteout survival and many, MANY other mobile games, you would see that Illuvium has a pretty much perfect setup for a similar fashion game.

In those types of games, you have a city that takes a secondary role whereas the main focus lies on creating troops and throwing them at one another. (and most importantly how much you can pay, as those games are like whale magnets, but VERY popular)

Illuvium Zero can use similar mechanics where the city structure specifically takes a backseat. IZ holders do NOT want to lose their elements and fuel since it's an investment game, but instead want a type of new ROI. Opting in or out could work, but it would leave people getting burned and losing resources moving each owner towards opting out.

Furthermore, IZ punishes space for defensive buildings as you would reduce your fuel output, and it would overall require a total revamp of the idea behind structuring your city. There is limited space, and we want to use it on fuel and blueprints. Not defensive structures that still allow part of your buildings to be destroyed.

Lords mobile does allow for raiding cities, but does so in a more standoff way. You don't demolish buildings and only a Wall, Heroes and Units defend the city. This allows for the city itself to remain untouched.

I would push for any future PvP or other content to be similar to the "vergeway" of Lords mobile, where a new gameplay feature is added that has nothing, or very little, to do with the structuring of the city. I.e. I'm in favor of a training facility, but that's just a single building; Not an entire defensive formation. Replacing a converter with the training facility would be fine.

Images show the difference when your city is raided. A city can catch on fire, but it doesn't do anything specifically. Furthermore, the Vergeway is the purple portal that is a new feature and doesn't impede on the structure of the city. [Source google] :]

[fiery helm]

gr8 input @woeful olive!

If PvP is to be implemented than I agree that something like this would be the way.

Altough I'm not familiar with the game I love the fact that it's a whales game. In our case the troops could be the illuvials and the more illuvials a player would have the stronger the armies would be at the player's disposal.

[chilly pagoda]

Or drones

[fiery helm]

This would greatly increase the value proposition of holding illuvials

And it's something we're missing in IZ, since illuvials are supposed to be an integral part of every game.

[fiery helm]

wouldn't drones imply like a drone factory building and thus remove space from the landplots and hinder resource extraction?

[chilly pagoda]

Maybe...

[fiery helm]

it would make sense to the F2P tho

right now we have the leviathan arena where the focus is on having the best of the best illuvials. Something like this would actually give players an incentive to hoard as many illuvials as possible.

[velvet mango]

Why are the illuvials always being thought of as weapons of war? Has there been an idea for boosting production based on illuvials sent to a building? You can then rent out illuvials to neighboring lands in need (eg - ramphyres encircling a Solon converter boost efficiency or Squizz at a PowerPlant boosts efficiency etc).

[fiery helm]

actually there is, I've talked about illuvial staking before. I think it's another nice feature.
#1228481690566000640 message

tying illuvials to boosting production can be a fun concept

[velvet mango]

Completely agree. Different combinations of illuvials at a particular building can increase or decrease efficiency - 2 Squizz vs Squizz and Alphie at a power Staton.

I waffle with the concept of raiding as a land holder. I do think illuvials at the center of whatever is decided (opposed to building weapons systems) is more palatable. And agree with all the convo around increasing interoperable gameplay in IZ while keeping the masses in mind

[fiery helm]

I find these conversations really important to brainstorm ideas and very meaningful to try and improve the games we have. After all, this is the power of a DAO, we can make a difference.