#tired of being stepped on? take the fight to ILV!

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

tardy raptor
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IIP proposal to prevent any releases before zero!

how many of you would support an uprising to stop illuvium from launching anything before releasing zero for holders, atleast 2 weeks before any other game.

none of u has much to lose, a slight delay will not affect ur bags, but it will ruin the entire ecosystem for land holders if they go ahead with this.

the domino effect of the decision they have made is insanely huge and shows that they dont care about land, theyre using us to achieve their goals for 2 years and this time they want to get the mobile users without puttin the work for holders.

vote for the community , your bags have been damaged enough.

delay their plans with couple of months, make them miss their targets, make them disappoint investors, make them start thinking about US.

make illuvium great!

i guarantee next time they start considering stuff, theyll think about the community first.

hard sun
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I get that landowners might be feeling left behind. But I don't think delaying even further the OB should be the solution.

I do agree, though, that IZ should launch at least 1 week before the OB to allow some time for the initial building and to ensure players have access to fuel on launch day.

peak tapir
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While you are right that landowners have 'suffered' the most in terms of their investment/return I don't think further delaying OB is the right way to do it.

I would support an IIP for example that would help with the potential ROI of land (making sure we don't have to wait another 2+ years to at least get your investment back), or a way to increase its value and make it a real asset when it comes to income (maybe raising the 5% share - even for a limited period of time - or making the skins exclusive only to the lands or something like this)
I support this for the moment as i do think it's mandatory to have an IIP very soon to improve the lands in some way.

hard sun
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Friendly advice @tardy raptor, an IIP like this would never pass the IMC unless it was presented positively and written in a constructive manner.

I would give this idea credit if it aimed to address the vague wording of IIP-39 regarding IZ launch. However, as it stands, this would just penalize everyone eagerly awaiting for the OB launch.

austere patrol
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Although I agree with what you said , I think zero needs way more than to just be released.

tardy raptor
hard sun
sharp pine
#

wow

tardy raptor
sharp pine
tardy raptor
sharp pine
#

to delay OB for IZ?

tardy raptor
# sharp pine to delay OB for IZ?

delay everything until iz is ready and live for 2 weeks, as promised multiple times before instead of ruining the start for holders and potentially the economy

sharp pine
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can u explain how its gonna ruin the start for holders and the economy?

tardy raptor
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2 months time, illuvium will be dead by then, we need the initial hype to sell some fuel

sharp pine
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what if iz is delayed but landowners still get the 5%

tardy raptor
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still, missing out on hype, if developed land is saved and can be sold with structures, lots of things can be missed out on, lots of things can happen during the airdrop hype for holders

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not to mention being unable to play when u have land . ull have to pay for fuel

sharp pine
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ru concerned about fp?

harsh sandal
river dragon
harsh sandal
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I definitely see the ruined start for land owning players but struggle to see the impact to the broader economy.

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Other than the prevention of land owners selling fuel for too cheap at launch. Which does not sound to me like ruining the economy, but rather postponing the free market.

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Of course free market was the idea behind the fuel economy… so non-existence of the “real” economy is a bit like ruining economy.

harsh sandal
hard sun
harsh sandal
sharp pine
harsh sandal
stuck briar
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This is a horrendous idea, sacrificing the whole success of the project because ETH NFTs lost a lot of value since 2021. News flash it isn't just ILV land that lost value it's everything.

The team have kept building out zero and have updated the community every step of the way.

If you are sad that you didn't buy the token and bought land due to the price changes that isn't Illuviums fault. It's a free market.

I've never seen such a ridiculous idea. Apologies to be blunt that's my opinion.

split wave
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I am a landowner and this is just ludicrous. If you want ILV to be great, stop thinking of "bags" and think of DAO success. Nice try.

latent osprey
# sharp pine wow

You started this rumour, you deal with it. Or am I shooting the messenger?

river dragon
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This is IIP-39 and it was passed.

tardy raptor
tardy raptor
stuck briar
# tardy raptor none of this is true btw

Its not true most ETH NFTs from 2021 highs are all in large drawdown losses? The team have kept building out zero and have updated the community every step of the way. ALSO TRUE

tardy raptor
storm gull
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How are you going to deny this fact, @stuck briar ?

hard sun
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Where is all this FUD coming from? Why are you guys saying IZ is not launching? Please link sources.

stuck briar
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Most 2021 era ETH NFTs all performed awfully. TBH Illuvium held value better than a lot.

image.png image.png image.png image.png
latent osprey
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Tax loss harvesting NFTs was awesome, silver lining... If they pump again the bill is coming due but kekpain

harsh sandal
harsh shadow
# river dragon

The keywords here are 'technichally feasible'.

From what I've gathered in the townhall, iz can be launched at the same time with the rest. The issue seems to be the fuel being integrated from iz to ow as full ecosystem. That falls under technical blockers. And memory serves me right Kieran/Labs will devise a way to ensure landowners still get their 5%.

I would support something that's tied to playing land. Example, labs takes a snapshot of fuel production and you get a ratio based on overall production by all landowners and that becomes your percentage from the guaranteed 5%

tardy raptor
harsh sandal
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This is governance participation. It’s discussion. It’s solution finding. You want a say in the DAO then use your voice to do more than rage against the machine.

harsh shadow
sharp pine
sharp pine
latent osprey
haughty bay
# sharp pine <@102253344755560448> would u comment on this claim?

Zero F2P will be available for Beta 4 P2.

Zero (P2E) is targeted for Open Beta launch.
However this is software development, there is significant complexity.

How this has turned into an us (team) versus them (land holders) situation, doesn't make a great deal of sense to me, although yes I see the tireless work the Zero Team put into the project day in and day out and most do not.

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Even in a situation where Zero (P2E) is launched shortly after Open Beta...Holders are guaranteed to receive their due and Kieran has said as much on AMAs and in the recent town-hall.

Why anyone would want to shoot the entire project in the foot for the sake of Launching Zero 2-weeks ahead of Open Beta makes little sense to me.

sharp pine
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i understand that not having IZ P2E earlier than OB or with OB will be a huge dissapointment. if this is true, imo the team need to give a hard deadline for IZ P2E.
having said that i dont believe in delaying OB for IZ P2E.
There is a bigger picture for launching OB in Q2

tardy raptor
# haughty bay Zero F2P will be available for Beta 4 P2. Zero (P2E) is targeted for Open Beta ...

have u checked #🎮〕illuvium-zero ? have u seen a single land owner that has been happy with his investment and how we have been treated and how you continue to treat us and u come here and ask us to be grateful? lol

nobody is attacking the devs that are working? i believe? we are saying the project itself does not care about land owners and does not put the effort needed, does not deliever and it is not priority, yall made sure that f2p is out to get more participants for the airdrop to flex with numbers, but didnt do what was needed, promised and logical, to have functional game for the 72m $

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so yes, it is land owner vs ilv most of the time, because thats how we are treated, if thats not clear from literally everyone's opinion in the chat, i might be pushing it, sure, but nobody is happy and denying that is .. idk.

it is not cool to launch anything before land can be utilized, its about more than fuel and ppl seem to forget that

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we have spent almost 2 years developing strategies for day 1, just sayin

haughty bay
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You bought Land for an In Development Product, and what was promised was the Alpha Build at the time.

I'm not asking anyone to be grateful, but I also (personally) believe you should be an adult and let the developers do what they must.

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We make decisions that benefit the DAO as a whole.

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Any who, I've voted - Back to work I go . These are just personal opinions as a Land Holder that knows everyone is working toward getting the best result for the DAO.

tardy raptor
# haughty bay Zero F2P is essentially a stripped down build of IZ P2E. F2P enables Beta 4 acc...

i dont care about f2p, i dont care about airdrop, i care about land owners. yall cooked stuff up without thinking about ur biggest investors

these things had to be considered by ilv. and this is why we got here, dont make plans without puttin the core community first.

people are talking that land owners dont even get guaranteed participation

the point of this topic is to shine a light and show you how it looks from land owners point of view, its to see how people feel and react, im happy with the outcome if it got u here to discuss with us.

you are clarifying that u dont care how that affects land owners as long as it benefits token holders and the project, which is exactly what im saying too.

haughty bay
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Nope, my stance is I want to do what's best for the Project as a whole.

tardy raptor
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and why does it have to always affect land owners

haughty bay
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Beyond Wave 3 hasn't started In Development yet? Argument could be made Beyond is not getting the love it deserves right now, no?

tardy raptor
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our game was supposed to be done before beyond even exists?

haughty bay
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Zero was due to launch alongside Open Beta which includes a broad scope of work including many projects.

tardy raptor
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i think we said what should have been said, others can make up their mind with that info

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dont u think that its a mistake to have play to airdrop without play to earn? how many of those people would play/progress more or even stay long term if they can directly earn on top of the airdrop

haughty bay
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FWIW - I absolutely care about Land Holders.

Please remember it's a balancing act for us... resource, time, DAO priorities, Market priorities..the list goes on.

Respect your opinion, but personally I think it would be a huge negative to delay if it comes to it.

tardy raptor
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no, it would be huge benefit. u cant have axie 2.0 without earning

haughty bay
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The airdrop will still be active and available to Land Holders. The airdrop itself is complex and caters to many cohorts

tardy raptor
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we will not be able to produce fuel to participate fully, no?

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pay to play even for land owners is just not cool, im not sure how that got approved with "care"

haughty bay
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I think you're making assumptions without a clear view of how the airdrop works.

tardy raptor
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thats true, but the rest of the things r still valid

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but uve adapted to not having play to earn, so how the airdrop works is based on that, could have been different, could be different.

#

anyone from the community or probably council would have told you that this is bad idea, why arent these things ran by the community, the investors

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hows this even happening is beyond me, we are talking about the biggest game about to launch, once in a lifetime moment for investors

hollow rock
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I bought land so that I could be self-sufficient in playing OW and arenas. Waiting for Revdis means I would need to take out money from my pocket again to pay for additional expenses. This is unacceptable. Can Revdis be distributed daily?

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And since testing should involve not only addressing bugs but also gathering more data to adjust fuel output, testing without real data support lacks meaning.

hollow rock
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From a long-term perspective, ILV's user growth should rely on engaging gameplay and a viable economic system rather than on airdrops to attract temporary traffic. In fact, a viable economic system is even more important than the quality of the game itself. Look at BIGTIME, for example; its graphics can't compare to ILV, yet it's currently thriving. This can be seen from the fact that no one was streaming it a few months ago, but now there are over a dozen streams on the platforms I follow.

cloud echo
hidden fiber
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I gave this a thumbs down.

I own land, it's important to me. I want to play it and I want to earn from it. I also understand that the only way for it to be successful is if the project as a whole is successful. I do appreciate that our 5% is being allocated. Although, I like @harsh shadow idea of taking screenshots or something as I think it is better if landowners are rewarded based on play and not just by whether they hold a land that they may have never even looked at since buying.

There's so much to unpack here. It's frustrating as a landowner, I have a megacity and 5 other plots. I don't even know how a megacity is going to function and I REALLY wanted to have my land before OB so that I could figure it out ahead of time. I don't want to be trying to figure out my land while also doing OW runs trying to find Illuvials, I wanted things up and running ahead of time so yeah, it's really disappointing.

I don't regret buying my land though and I am not angry at the team.

I don't think the team is out to get us. I think there are a lot of moving parts and they are trying to keep everything going to make the game a success. Right now we (landowners) are taking the hit. Is it fair? Maybe not but this is the real world. Fair is irrelevant. What is relevant is getting out a game and having it be successful because if the game isn't successful we won't be playing our land for long anyway.

My opinion is that it is OK to be disappointed and not like the situation but fighting with the team and trying to destroy the launch of Open Beta is detrimental to the whole project, which landowners are part of.

sharp pine
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i agree, if we look at ATH to recent floor price, IZ plot is holding well compared to the blue chips

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generally, utility NFT is doing better than pfp

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not all, otherdeed was 8e

cloud echo
river dragon
# river dragon

Johnny wrote in the IZ channel “Yes it sucks that Illuvium Zero for land holders probably won't be be ready before Open Beta, [...]”

@harsh shadow, you’re taking two words out of a paragraph stating a clear intention to have Zero launch first with reasons supporting it.

Even so, tell me what’s not technically feasible about it? The team autocratically decides on a period to launch Arena and OW, and also decides to add a huge amount of workload (F2P) to IZ, then it’s considered not technically feasible? You can’t be serious. If one thing is “technically feasible” is a little wait to launch the games together and not disregard the whole paragraph for two words.

Or are you implying that IZ will never be ready, therefore it’s not technically feasible and the second clause “prior to the Illuvium Overworld” doesn’t apply? Or perhaps not never but something like in 6 months+ which falls under technical blockers. If that’s the case land players/holders still don’t have a clear idea of when their game will launch, miss testing and planning, and miss the hype of launching alongside the other games. It gets worse when some marketed features from the land sale like Megacities are barely getting acknowledged or delayed with no end in sight. The 5% airdrop keeps coming up like that’s the only thing that matters when it’s not.

Their sense of priority is skewed and their lack of transparency affects some of the community. It also shows that governance is failing. If the team can add variables on a whim that causes passed IIP to be disregarded so blatantly.

tardy raptor
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im so glad i wrote this

latent osprey
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Fun fact, team members have also spent large sums of money on land.

tardy raptor
# latent osprey Fun fact, team members have also spent large sums of money on land.

fun fact, they also have paychecks and probably received tokens for being team, maybe even land. but i dont see how thats relevant.
this is about them making moves that devalues land, removes opportunities, breaks promises and they state that the greater good is chosen, by sacrificing land.

all we are saying is that it doesnt have to be like that, they can put in the work where it should have been put, not switch their target to p2a instead of p2e, which they did and they did not deliever the core of the game.

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there will be ZERO players staying for zero post airdrop, everyone knows that. 72m were used only to target web3 grinders, thats all. they dont care about your land, never did, never will. thats how it works, otherwise this wouldnt happen, this wouldnt even be an option.

latent osprey
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I was angry as well for a while, then I started watching a lot of gaming docos and realised delays are extremely common.

tardy raptor
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we know that well enough, thats not the issue, the issue was prioritizing the airdrop over holders

latent osprey
tardy raptor
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so theyre forcing us to force them, unfortunately council will never grow balls to do something like this and show what web3 is about, cuz this is what web3 and council is about , this is when their vote actually counts.

72m were raised by land sale.

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everyone in web3 will hear and know about the council that made 3 games wait for the 4th, because they didnt value holders

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and this is how illuvium goes great. i can calculate the future.

storm gull
hard sun
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"a viable economic system is even more important than the quality of the game itself", I strongly agree with this as well for web3

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but not so true when aiming to attract web2 players

latent osprey
tardy raptor
stuck briar
storm gull
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I cannot even believe that we are genuinely at a point where we need to debate it like this; it's even further from the promises regarding the IZ economy launch for landholders than ever.

tardy raptor
hard sun
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I posted this in the IZ chat but I'll ask it in here as well.
What's worse: having a scuffed OB launch without all 3 games releasing simultaneously or delaying the OB launch once more?

tardy raptor
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their goal is airdrop atm, hype. cuz its the season. its billion times worse to launch half baked stuff than to delay for proper launch.

storm gull
# stuck briar I am not shocked people who bought at the highs of 2021 are sad they have lost m...

You still seem to try to twist the words in our mouths.
No, I care about my investment and money, but I was well aware that there is no guarantee that it will be successful and make me more money than I invested.
But for God's sake, we really came that far. We MUST demand (as landholders) that we want our economy to work to produce our own fuel from launch onwards and not the other way around!
I'm out of words that we indeed came to this point, even considering the amount of money made back then with the Dutch auction.

tardy raptor
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im glad that some people think around here. dont mind josh, he might be gettin paid to do this : D

storm gull
# hard sun I posted this in the IZ chat but I'll ask it in here as well. What's worse: hav...

I see a storm coming towards us (release day)—full of bugs, no working economy, and many more unforeseen things that will delay us even more in getting our own fuel used in OW runs.
This final punch into the stomach is going to crash not just the hype but also the sentiment of the whole loyal community (landholders).
#InMyPersonalOpinion
For the record, this has been praised to heaven - oh, look, own your land and use it for overworld while you sell it to the pool and buy it right back for the same price.
Two years later, Nah, forget about it. We felt otherwise - thanks for the 72mio.
Don't get me started regarding Megacities, regarding what has been promised compared to what has been delivered.
Nobody with a Megacitie, including myself, has any clue about what it's going to be like to play one. I truly wonder why I have even made such an effort to get one, looking back and seeing how much of a priority it has been delivering it to its investors.

stuck briar
river dragon
stuck briar
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You think Illuvium will be dead after 2 months. I cannot take you seriously.

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tardy raptor
hard sun
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Altough I'm against the idea of anything that could delay the OB launch, if IZ isn't actually ready by the end of Q2 then it would really ruin the OB launch and set a bad tone for what's to come.

storm gull
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Instead, the DAO comes up every other week with new features, which gets surprisingly so much attention INSTEAD of FINISHING THE JOB and getting the land economy running.
That speaks for itself anyway; everyone who denies that - well, good luck.
But yeah, I guess "new shiny things" are always more attractive than the old burdens you have put upon yourself and aren't working as you originally intended.

stuck briar
storm gull
tardy raptor
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also, pelase dont compare 2 years ago to now. ull be surprised what ilv can achieve if its actually web2 friendly as planned with immutable sutff

latent osprey
tardy raptor
storm gull
# stuck briar Axie took a long time to get players and hype to grow, I don't expect anything d...

You seem to ignore that we're not in Axie times anymore when there were few options.
There was just Axie, and that was almost it, besides big announcements of other projects that mainly rug pulled back then as many do with AI "projects" right now.
Have you ever asked yourself honestly what most people gonna do in the beginning regarding Illuvium's launch plans?
Well, they are simply gonna farm the airdrop, extract as much value as they can, and be gone by the day the airdrop ends.
Good luck in the aftermath with not just many players but also a nonfunctional economy and a community that has been gone by then; in my opinion, considering the treatment it has gotten—the best example is land.

stuck briar
# tardy raptor 90%.

In your opinion. Likely what happens is people farm the airdrop, network effect and marketing narratives run hard. People download the game to check it out, likely player counts drop from the euphoric highs but a good install base remains. Its a net positive. You all act like the airdrop will be easy to obtain, it's VERY likely the team have this already planned to be matched with gameplay and require actual engagement and spending to occur.

tardy raptor
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we dont work with guessing here, because our investment is at stake and theyre making us miss the most important window, the only window that matters. the beginning.

storm gull
latent osprey
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Lots of people will come back to check out illuvium once we go live, even normies heard about us during the last bull run. Granted the game has to be good but you have to have some belief in the team.

tardy raptor
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nobody here questions quality of ilv games, we question decision making towards economy and investors.

stuck briar
latent osprey
storm gull
# stuck briar It's okay to have a difference of opinion, what you are working off regarding th...

How many more times do I need to tell you that I do not give a single piece of whatever about the airdrop!
What I truly care about is that land launches entirely with Open Beta with a working economy and so on - we're being further diluted by missing the most critical window for our investments into the land, WHICH IS GOING TO BE LAUNCH.
Nobody besides a few of us seems to care.
I mean, what I got into here back then was that there was at least a more vibrant community with more constructive opinions and not just sheep following the shepherd (Illuvium Labs) in whatever direction they were going.

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Calling us still a DAO is like calling a dictatorship in whatever country democratic - I do not feel like at all that, besides this absurd airdrop, nobody asked for (for all lands instead of solely the active ones), all interests are taken care of.
But there we go, let us not call ourselves then a working DAO when it's truly one-sided.

stuck briar
tardy raptor
storm gull
stuck briar
tardy raptor
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doesnt matter how itll work, because its adjusted to not having p2e, it can easily be readjusted to fit p2e

storm gull
# stuck briar You literally talked about the airdrop, all info and opinions based on it are as...

No, I'm far from assuming. You have never heard anything about statistics or third-world countries, where people do everything they can to extract a single dollar, which is much more money than in our hemisphere.
Well, I have concluded that you are trying to ignore facts regarding upcoming events.
I wish you a grateful awakening. It's going to be ugly, considering the player retention rates after a few months starting with this model, like Kieran is planning it for the whole Illuvium "interconnected" (exception land) universe.
#InMyPersonalOpinion

river dragon
# latent osprey I love your passion, how do we fix this?

Maybe start acting in accordance with IIP-39? Finish marketed features of the game? Don't prioritize a community that doesn't exist yet (F2P) over a 2 years old community that happen to have also invested. Maybe don't announce a big launch if it's not ready?

latent osprey
tardy raptor
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i believe ppl have too much trust in leadership that continuously makes questionable decisions, i believe they have no clue whats happening and theyre only chasing hype, which they classify as greater good for the dao

storm gull
sharp pine
river dragon
tardy raptor
latent osprey
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I wonder if it's like this at shareholder meetings.

tardy raptor
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we are really at that point, we must force ilv. no other way.

storm gull
sharp pine
tardy raptor
latent osprey
river dragon
tardy raptor
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without us, they got no games, they got no project. if the core people are united, ilv has no choice.

sharp pine
storm gull
# sharp pine this is a battle landowners cant win. the dates are locked. all i can see is if ...

Wow, that's unreal—it feels so cheated. Like, literally, all of this airdrop stuff nobody asked for, Kieran had this brilliant idea. Well, let's see how well it goes when, in the end, nobody plays the game anymore besides a handful.
If I'm proven wrong, so be it, but how this is headed doesn't look pretty.
Getting sick from these lines of leading people calling us still a DAO were this couldn't be further from the truth regarding current events.

tardy raptor
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technically its not fud, we would just be sayin the truth.

latent osprey
tardy raptor
river dragon
tardy raptor
storm gull
tardy raptor
sharp pine
tardy raptor
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they made a decision which can start a war, we decide if we are going to fight or just let it be as they choose.

river dragon
storm gull
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I feel rugged regarding the launch, as my land is far from its peak value and does not even have a connected economy with a launch date due to F2P priority due to the planned airdrop.
Alone, this sentence is insane, as they were selling us land and are now giving F2P plots priority to get the airdrop for them. It's unreal, haha.

sharp pine
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it is insane, theres no need to sugarcoat that

river dragon
sharp pine
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i apologize on behalf of the team.
but we can demand something tangible.
The hard deadline for IZ P2E
@haughty bay

river dragon
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No acknowledgment at all of the issue.

tardy raptor
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theyre using us, why would they apologize, we served our purpose, paid 72m, they moved on to beyond, sucked them dry, now they use zero for beyond s3 delay. its how this works.

latent osprey
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LOL poor Nick being dragged into this.

sharp pine
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If we look at the latest roadmap, we already have "new game" IIP planned.
lets not talk about that until we have IZ P2E

latent osprey
sharp pine
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still money invested

tardy raptor
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another decision they have made, not land owner's fault.

sharp pine
storm gull
latent osprey
sharp pine
sharp pine
storm gull
latent osprey
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AirDrops were Jag's idea.

sharp pine
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oh yea, airdrop is the best web3 marketing tool

tardy raptor
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just look at the conversation we are having, after 72m and 2 years we are about to go live without the core mechanics of the core game, the game in the center of it all

storm gull
river dragon
tardy raptor
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play to airdrop is a good idea, play to airdrop launched without play to earn is the most stupid thing they could have came up with.

latent osprey
sharp pine
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mavia launch airdrop was a huge success, 1-2m downloads

storm gull
sharp pine
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im not kidding at all.
play to airdrop is the meta

latent osprey
tardy raptor
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he did not want for ilv to forget about zero, he merely offered best option to go viral

sharp pine
#

big time
pixels
nyan heroes
pixelmon

storm gull
tardy raptor
sharp pine
latent osprey
sharp pine
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being idealistic is good, but being realistic is better.
we need good numbers.
At the same time i will critize that looking after your existing investors/customers should be the priority

storm gull
sharp pine
tardy raptor
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it will be fun watching the chat once airdrop is done and all they have is the core community hating the leadership

storm gull
tardy raptor
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as you know i will be big part of that and there will be many "i told you so" 's 😄

sharp pine
sharp pine
tardy raptor
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and throw land owners under the bus as many times as possible

river dragon
storm gull
river dragon
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Goodbye beautiful vision.

tardy raptor
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i feel like a modern day web3 revolutionary

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we fight for freedom : D songs will be made bout us

sharp pine
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good plan, doesnt work

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ILV is a long term project.
we are still a newborn.

storm gull
latent osprey
sharp pine
tardy raptor
sharp pine
tardy raptor
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did you guys not pay for land to be able to use fuel or sell fuel or sell schematics or whatever? thats the utility of the nft?

river dragon
storm gull
# sharp pine ILV is a long term project. we are still a newborn.

Nah, sorry, you're absolutely not.
The main problem is you see yourself as one cause it hasn't reached perfection yet, the things you want to see perfect - but this point will never be reached, and you won't reach many gamers with perfectionism, leaving your core community on the way of this path.
This may not apply to everyone on the team, but I'm pretty sure of the key figures based on my observations over the recent years.
#MyPersonalOpinion #NoOffence

stuck briar
storm gull
tardy raptor
stuck briar
tardy raptor
#

then why tf yall keep talking only about fuel? zero is much more than that.

sharp pine
#

blueprints

storm gull
stuck briar
fervent island
tardy raptor
fervent island
storm gull
tardy raptor
#

i would, but i believe jag is going to represent us better, as he understands things more than me

stuck briar
tardy raptor
stuck briar
storm gull
sharp pine
#

ok lets be constructive and talk about how landowners can get compensated with the delay.
ill start:

  1. More airdropped fuel and elements to jump start progress
  2. Airdrop speed ups to landowners
stuck briar
storm gull
fervent island
fervent island
tardy raptor
#

theres nothing more important to the game than working game, yes

storm gull
tardy raptor
#

relax guys, hes here to listen obviously, lets make sure he hears what he needs to hear

storm gull
river dragon
# sharp pine ok lets be constructive and talk about how landowners can get compensated with t...

Can we get an official apology letter explaining in the most transparent and honest way, what happened, when it happened, why it happened, and what will they do to prevent it from happening again? I'm talking about making a big launch without Illuvium Zero and all its marketed features including interconnectivity, AND not respecting IIP-39.
From the start, no bs of technical problems.

tardy raptor
fervent island
tardy raptor
storm gull
fervent island
sharp pine
peak tapir
#

@fervent island i guess another concern would be (except progress and blueprint researching getting delayed) is the fact that although land owners would get the 5% promised is when and at what intervals? Because for example maybe some have bought land to fund their own OW runs and IF and only IF ILZ won't be live at start of the OB it means they still have to pay for their own runs until ILZ will be out

river dragon
sharp pine
#

tarren is marketing, he got nothing to do with this

#

if u wanna reach team, the best is johnny or nick

storm gull
sharp pine
storm gull
sharp pine
#

i am proposing airdrop vesting to keep them longer

tardy raptor
# fervent island If I’m mistaken, I’ve made it clear I’m happy to discuss in good faith. Correct ...

so considering that we dont want fuel airdrops to play what we paid for, because we will play as much as you decide we can play and not as much as we grind.

  1. about progress i mean that a 2 weeks earlier launch would allow us to develop our lands and setup ourselves for launch (by denying that, you are decreasing land value by a lot).

after that the 2 months delay that are predicted (probably more) further decreasing the value of land, because its still useless, initial hype is gone, land is not functional and money are not being made.

buyers are gone, fuel isnt being sold, blueprints arent being sold, not as the first days or during the airdrop. my estimations are over 90% less.

  1. blueprints seems like you get why thats not nice

  2. illuvials, arent blueprints crucial to capturing stuff easier?

earlier grind and sustain from land land is increasing the chance of making money in OW too.

  1. land owners will have to pay if they want to play more than your cheap ass fuel airdrops provide or any system that you could invent ( dont make such system, because it just puts on bandage on the issue, the issue should be removed)
#

there is no option for releasing without p2e, zero options that are fair or make sense. just consider the biggest refund ever made and go do whatever you want with your project, everyone will be happy.

tardy raptor
stuck briar
storm gull
tardy raptor
storm gull
tardy raptor
#

i just hope ilv doesnt become a case to study about biggest web3 flops, cuz thats where we r going.

stuck briar
#

This whole idea and replies that have come from it are hilarious.

storm gull
tardy raptor
#

i honestly cannot believe this is how itll go, this was the time where they should have made up to land owners and i have to be here trying to reason with people why this is wrong, there are very few people here that understand whats about to happen.

peak tapir
stuck briar
#

I can't wait for the game to be a roaring success and you all eat some humble pie. Enjoy the salt 🧂

tardy raptor
#

bruh are u an alt of johnny or something : D

sharp pine
storm gull
# tardy raptor i honestly cannot believe this is how itll go, this was the time where they shou...

Yeah, I feel absolutely with you; most who do not grasp it are tunnel-visioned on the one who is raising concerns instead of using their brain power to think about why these people are even raising their voices so much, not trying to FUD but trying to point out vital misconceptions which are simply there regarding this AMAZING AIRDROP.
I wish them all the best of luck with it. At least we tried it and didn't follow unthinkingly into this disaster, which might worsen as soon as the airdrop concludes.
I will take a break since it no longer doesn't change anything, raising your voice in this "community," calling itself a DAO.

tardy raptor
peak tapir
# sharp pine its too late for that

Yeah i'm not sure about the workload this would imply .. but as for time there is still time i mean if ILZ would be delayed 1 month after OB that would mean staking for at least 3 months and you can get something out of it

storm gull
tardy raptor
stuck briar
sharp pine
storm gull
peak tapir
sharp pine
#

easiest solution is just to airdrop landowners more fuel crates, maybe element crates and speedups

tardy raptor
#

no, no, no and no

sharp pine
#

what if IZ P2E get delayed for 2 months, and u get 2 months worth of fuel, elements and speedups?

tardy raptor
#

3 decades speedups and fuel are not worth

sharp pine
#

motion denied.

tardy raptor
#

someone allowed them to take the easy option and drop us 15$ fuel and now theyre always goin to go for that instead of puttin work

sharp pine
#

we cant speed up the IZ team

#

there should be a compromise here

peak tapir
# sharp pine motion denied.

Well .. it seems ILV is what remains... allow land owners to stake for 3 months and get ILV as reward ..exactly like you would stake the token

tardy raptor
#

ye thats why the topic here is to delay others and maybe work some more on them until zero is done, no less than 2 weeks before other games release

tardy raptor
sharp pine
fervent island
# tardy raptor so considering that we dont want fuel airdrops to play what we paid for, because...

I appreciate you responding respectfully. Let's continue going through these point by point to ensure we're working towards a shared understanding!

  • I understand your point of view and agree that missing out on that intial rush will be impactful. The question I have, is the issue you're bringing up something that's focused on the short term impact or long term impact?

  • Short term : I can fully understand the impact that you're stating.

  • Long term : In the grand scheme of things. I don't see this being impactful at all if we look at a 12 month+ time frame.

  • To make sure I understand your position. You're thesis is that Illuvium will only have a rush of players at the beginning and never get back to that level again?

    • I'm making this assumption from your statement "buys are gone"

  • As far as I'm aware, blueprints won't affect capturing rates so this statement / concern isn't applicable.

  • Your plan was to ONLY participate in OW with the fuel that you yourself produced with never purchasing any fuel from the market?

Regarding the statement "there is no optoin for releasing without p2e, zero options that are fair or make sense". I have agreed with some of the concerns you've brought up so I ask you if it's possible for you that you can see ANY possible reason as to why delaying OB could be detrimental for everyone involved? Meaning, you now see this plan as hurting land owners. Could it be possible that delaying could hurt Illuvium as a whole and still hurt land owners?

river dragon
#

Putting the blame on us for wanting to be included and delaying everything to the detriment of everyone. Meh

peak tapir
# sharp pine we can try that, but its gonna take time to develop the contract and audit. by t...

Well we can't assume it's going to be ready in a month after all the delays we had with it...
And if let's say ILZ is ready then you just unstake and use it to play ... i don't see any real reason (beside workload for the contract and audit ofc) why this wouldn't work? It would give the team time to complete ILZ as they want and appease a vast majority of the land owners as then they cannot say anymore that land is useless
Honestly this should ve been done a long time ago

storm gull
fervent island
tardy raptor
# fervent island I appreciate you responding respectfully. Let's continue going through these poi...

oke lets go.

    1. i dont see why we shouldnt consider both long and short term, maximum efficiency for holders is most important, maximum opportunities.
  1. even if it goes get to same level of hype over time and conquers the world, we would have still missed the beginning, which is why we all invested.

  • im pretty certain there must be things that land can grind/progress and sell that affect ilv.

  • yes , did you think that i will pay for anything ilv related if i have invested in land?

delaying OB will only help ilv, because p2e included will boost the grind by insane amounts, will boost the growth and numbers post airdrop.

will increase value of lands, especially if theres bonus for owning a land. i expect to see double prices

#

$BLOCK for example is giving up to 10x on their airdrop atm. 10x for owning/staking it and a separate 10x for playing while owning

#

u had in ur hands a chance to make land worth so much and u decided to make it worth zero

storm gull
tardy raptor
#

im talking bout 1.5 eth for t1 or something

#

i should have tried apply as an advisor long time ago.. 😄

fervent island
# tardy raptor oke lets go. - 1. i dont see why we shouldnt consider both long and short term,...

  • I agree, it's important to consider both long and short term. I think where we disagree is on which one holds more value. My point of view is that although both are valuable, I would prioritize long term over short. Based on what I see, you think otherwise (happy to be corrected here).

  • This second point actually lines up with my response to the first point. Your assumption that "we would have still missed the beginning, which is why we all invested" I think is objectively false.

  • There are some like yourself and others in this chat that 100% invested for this reason.

  • There are many others that invested for the long term and don't think this initial beginning hype (although it is annoying to miss out on) is the biggest opportunity of being a land holder.

    • Also I want to clarify here that we won't actually be missing out. We will still be receiving the 5% generated through fuel purcahses.

  • "I'm pretty certain" meaning you're absolutely sure? or you're making an unconfirmed assumption?

  • I didn't make any assumption regarding this as there are many land holders that would still want to participate by purchasing fuel.

I'll rephrase the question again due to the use of the word "delay" in the initial question
Could there be any potential benefit that outweigh the cons by releasing OB earlier than an interconnected IZ?

tardy raptor
#

could u explain what do u think the benefit of unfinished release is? why is this happening overall ?

river dragon
# fervent island I'll try again. The intent is not to blame, simply to come to an understanding ...

If I understand what you want to know, I think there are many pros and cons to both sides but it's quite unimportant in the long-run. The important is setting your priorities straight. Imo if you prioritize anything else other than the Quality of games, Community, Investors, Transparency Fairness and Respect, your project is more likely to fail. Right now, the priorities seem to be on DAU, Marketing and F2P.

storm gull
# fervent island - I agree, it's important to consider both long and short term. I think where we...

What became out of IIP-39 Tarren?
Do you really think people who loaded up land will want to buy additional fuel; yeah, surely you want us to do that to fuel your project even more and make your stakers happy with revenue distribution from these fuel sales - but most landholders at least I for myself won't do you this favor.
Illuvium has extracted enough money from its landholders. It's time to give back, and I'm not referring to a freaking airdrop nobody wanted or asked for besides the founder himself.

tardy raptor
#

no no, honestly, i dont see any benefits in releasing OB early, what exactly are we targeting. we trying to do airdrop for halving? the project's target atm is halving ?

fervent island
tardy raptor
fervent island
# tardy raptor no no, honestly, i dont see any benefits in releasing OB early, what exactly are...

I think this is where the issue comes from.

Myself and plenty of others understand your frustrations and can understand the cons as you've stated.
The issue is that you either don't see ANY potential benefits or choose not to which I hope the latter is not the case.

An example of a potential benefit. This is not confirmed, but using this as a potential example.

What if making it interconnected on the blockchain stops Zero from being in App store and google play store in the short term? Choosing a F2P solution guarantees a spot in those stores and grants a much larger audience to the game.

The land owners would still get a 5% cut and we wouldn't miss out on all the players from the game being on those platforms.

That is just 1 of many potential benefits of why we shouldn't make it a prerequsite to wait for interconnected Zero if something is blocking it.

tardy raptor
storm gull
tardy raptor
#

no, hes saying it might, which wont be the case and that is pointless to discuss

fervent island
# tardy raptor so nothing?

Ok, I have tried to have this conversation in good faith and don't feel like it's being reciprocated. I appreciate that we were able to at least keep it civil unlike others in this thread.

I truly do wish you the best of luck with this fight.

I 100% disagree with the premise as a community member and a land holder of multiple plots of land.

tardy raptor
fervent island
storm gull
fervent island
storm gull
#

Like in Canada or wherever, where is it not allowed to be critical anymore without being cut out of conversations?

hollow rock
tardy raptor
storm gull
fervent island
hard sun
#

@fervent island if P2E IZ isn't ready by OB how are the players going to travel to the OW, will there be fuel available to buy through the DAO?

tardy raptor
fervent island
storm gull
fervent island
tardy raptor
storm gull
tardy raptor
#

who decided not to work on p2e for 2 years, how did this happen

fervent island
tardy raptor
#

so ure saying that u guys have found a way to eliminate owners, i get that, but i dont like that. until few months ago that wasnt even a thing and now its replacing us

fervent island
storm gull
tardy raptor
#

im aware, potato, potato.

fervent island
storm gull
river dragon
storm gull
tardy raptor
#

i dont like the fact that after years of building we are so desperate to catch the halving that we are ready to sacrifice the project's biggest investors. you guys did not learn from arena fail and only made you even more unreasonable and pushing stuff , because you feel like you wont have a success because of your games, you feel like you need bull/halving boost and do not count on your game.

#

who is thinking short term idk. what happens after halving and bull and airdrop, this is what u must think about.

#

no amount of fuel will solve this, even on fuel pixels yall are cheap af

#

or ok, drop t1 1000$ worth of fuel that we can instantly sell and lets go. lets see how that affects the economy

harsh sandal
stuck briar
hidden fiber
#

One thing I do agree with you on Battlecries is that Illuvium has (so far) missed on what could be the potential of land. We have 80,000 plots left to sell and it would be nice to get maximum revenue from them. That won't happen unless the DAO and team start bringing more value to existing land.

I have no inside info but I am guessing that this last raise would not have gone through unless the game was 100% guaranteed to release on schedule. Partnerships wouldn't have been made, etc. There's a bigger picture here. For all we know having a larger mobile experience was part of the deal.

What I take from your hype comment Battlecries, is that one group this will concern are those who wanted to buy from the first land sale and flip the land on game release to make a profit. Which is valid. We want people to view Illuvium as a good investment opportunity. Which is the kinker here. On one side Illuvium should be following through on promises to investors. On the other side they have to get the games out on schedule for investors. Apparently both can't happen. Someone has to lose out and it has to be done by what will hurt the project the least.

tardy raptor
hidden fiber
#

Do you hold tokens or only land?

tardy raptor
#

they do not want to make owners more angry than we already are. they do not know how much we are ready to lose at this point, we have been waiting 2 years to get used and ignored. this is a battle they dont want to start and should go for whats best for holders.

i own both.

tardy raptor
# harsh sandal $12,029,000

did u adapt to plots and tiers, cuz ppl will need more with higher tier, if its 12, its more than reasonable : D

harsh sandal
hidden fiber
#

"This is a battle they don't want to start"

How are you planning on winning? Illuvium has your money already. You are getting only 46 people voting on this and less than half agree. You are bringing a pocket knife to a sword fight.

I get it, you are ticked and that's not unreasonable but it is unreasonable to want to cause even more division because that will not end well for us. We need community and team support not for them to hate us because we did all we could to jeopardize release.

tardy raptor
hidden fiber
#

If you went to token or Arena channel and posted there that a bunch of landowners want to delay release of OB until Zero is ready you think that would go over well?

tardy raptor
#

as i said earlier, u cant make p2a without p2e and expect to keep players, theyre sacrificing everything purely for numbers , not long term, super , super short term

#

we asked their marketing guy whats the benefit of launching OB early, he couldnt name ONE.

stuck briar
tardy raptor
#

no? i will not. you are the last person to give an opinion when u hav e no clue whats happening

#

we have been readin your stuff all day, go get ur paycheck, u did well. but thats not how this ends, i am well aware that they will go with their plan, i want to make the ground shake while they execute it. because we will not have this bs.

hidden fiber
# tardy raptor as i said earlier, u cant make p2a without p2e and expect to keep players, theyr...

One of the major issues I see with a DAO governance system is that community expects to have a lot of say in how things are managed (which in fairness is how it is sold) but we also don't have all the information of what is happening behind the scenes because of NDAs etc. It is a problem and it requires a level of trust in the leadership. The main difference between you and I is you seem to have lost that and I haven't. I am assuming there is a reason they are doing this other than the fact that they don't care about landowners or they are incompetent.

All that said, you did get what to me was a surprising number of thumbs up percentage wise. I may not agree with what you are asking for, but credit where credit is due, you did a good job showing that Landowners aren't happy with how things are going.

I've got to bow out of the conversation and get to an appointment but appreciate the discussion.

tardy raptor
#

trust me, from what we have seen in the last 2 years, they do not care about landowners at all, zero, ZERO. this last move was the last drop. this is make it or break it moment and council needs to step up or we are doomed , this time for good.

#

im only trying to prevent a disaster, if leadership cannot see that, nobody can help them, not even me.

stuck briar
stuck briar
tardy raptor
#

i got one question tho, did anyone know that we are sacrificing land owners when play to airdrop was suggested? did we get the info that if we go with that approach we will not make p2e ? cuz im pretty certain nobody would have agreed.

tardy raptor
hidden fiber
tardy raptor
#

nobody will ever invest in ilv anymore, especially in their 80k lands.

#

no game that screwed their investors/ owners ever did ok. nobody survives that.

celest hamlet
#

All decisions should be made for the benefit of the organization as a whole. Not for specific sections of an organization.

tardy raptor
hidden fiber
# tardy raptor no game that screwed their investors/ owners ever did ok. nobody survives that.

See those last 2 sentences can be said by those on the other side of your argument as well, delays screw investors too.

We aren't in a position to know if there are bigger whales who would be angry if delays are made which would have an even worse affect.

I think land can recover from this IF moving forward Illuvium creates value for it which is in everyone's best interest as there are 80K more plots to sell.

tardy raptor
austere patrol
primal spear
#

I am against further delaying OB. Suggesting that ILZ has to come 2 weeks before OB at all cost is a mistake imo. Even from a pure economic point of view, us landowners, are better off having a launch on schedule and not missing the momentum behind crypto and web3 gaming. Stop-gap solutions like 5 to 10% of all fuel sales + fuel airdrops are not ideal but still ensure landholders don't fully miss out on any success at launch.

BUT, we should not be in this situation in the first place. I do agree that it feels like landholders are made to pay for planning mistakes, pivots and delays. This topic deserves a clear communication with full context, transparency and accountability (it's a minimum for all those holders that stuck around for 2 years).
We're a DAO but at times, that's not very clear to me. I hope Kieran and team understand that many objections to their new ideas / pivots are not just from people defending their bags but mostly about delivering on promises. Be it on Beyond or ILZ, once a product is sold for money, there is a trust & commitment that should not be broken and I understand that some ppl here feel strongly about this. Matter of principle.
That's why, even if we might disagree, let's please not dismiss the concerns raised here while thinking that the community does not know what's good for them.

tardy raptor
#

i like how most of u guys r optimistic, but p2e is non negotiable. it has to happen. i wish there was another way. there isnt. theres only bandage options that will not reduce even 10% of the impact/loss this decision has and thats if there are multiple, cuz we all know they will not provide much. uve seen a 2 year compensation. they cannot and will not sustain your gameplay. if they try, theyll just make fun of u and take your money to play the game you paid for. u dont agree? ull see.

#

theres a reason why johnny doesnt respond here, because this thing is already a fact and they will never stop it. it is happening. nothing we do can change that from what i understood. they did not put in the work for p2e, they worked on p2a. when it was decided that p2a is coming a separate team or more people should have been hired. 72 million is not enough for devs.

hidden fiber
sharp pine
#

treasury only get 20% or $1.4m from land sale. thats enough for 1 month of dev

tardy raptor
#

not sure why u guys even say that, 72m were spent, we dont care where they put the rest? thats their problem?

cloud echo
#

And 20% of the 7.4m went to the treasury through revdis. So the team ended up gaining 1.4m from the land sale

tardy raptor
stuck briar
tardy raptor
stuck briar
# tardy raptor ITS STILL 64 M?

Its like going to the store and buying bread with a free coupon from a promo deal and saying the business earned money from that transaction. People obtain sILV2 from claiming it instead of ILV rewards from staking the token. Any sILV2 spent is then burned by the DAO.

tardy raptor
stuck briar
#

Coupons were spent.

tardy raptor
#

if u can exchange those coupons for real money..?

river dragon
tardy raptor
#

ilv has decided to give value to silv2, but the way they give it value is by making land owners pay real money for which they state, its not money, its coupon. do u realize what kind of scam that is ? by continuing to state its not money, u continue to devalue land. it is money. do u think that magically makes the value of 20k lands to 7.4m ? no, they were still worth 72m.

stuck briar
tardy raptor
#

then shut up please and stop sabotaging everything we are trying to do for you and the rest of the land owners

stuck briar
river dragon
#

Or telling the bakery from which the store bought their bread that they can't pay them because people bought their bread with store issued coupons. 🤣

tardy raptor
#

hes.. slow.

stuck briar
tardy raptor
river dragon
tardy raptor
#

literally land paid for the ecosystem for years ahead

river dragon
#

Whether or not that revenue was used for something else than dev, it still was revenue

stuck briar
tardy raptor
#

not that they have done anything, the games are still not released. we are sustaining them.

stuck briar
#

I am pretty sure Illuitars actually generated more revenue for the DAO or it's close.

tardy raptor
#

theres no way more than 72 were raised from pictures

stuck briar
tardy raptor
#

it doesnt matter what was used. if its money, its money. as i said , their stupid tokenomics are none of our concern.

rain stone
# river dragon It still is revenue though. The value of sILV2 went up because they decided to b...

People spending sILV2 isn't revenue, it's redemption of a liability. It would be revenue if the DAO turned around and sold that sILV2 on the market. However, sILV2 is burned when it gets spent. Thus, no revenue is derived.

Here's a simplified example. A store sells gift cards for money. That money is revenue.

When the gift card is redeemed, that is not revenue.

In Illuvium's case, the DAO did not sell sILV2, it's a consequence of the staking program. There was no revenue generated through the sale of sILV2, because sILV2 was never sold by the DAO. It was claimed by stakers. That's where all sILV2 originates from, stakers claiming their yield rewards as sILV2.

The metric that people seem to be thinking of is the value spent during the land sale. $72M worth of land was sold, but it didn't generate $72M in revenue for the DAO.

#

It's also not really relevant to the conversation. Land owners clearly would like Zero to be live prior to Open Beta. That's really what this boils down to.

tardy raptor
river dragon
rain stone
harsh shadow
# river dragon Johnny wrote in the IZ channel “Yes it sucks that Illuvium Zero for land holders...

I was part of the strategy subcouncil and I recall that this particular paragraph of the proposal was a fruit of the SSC's intention to address the issue on having enough fuel when open beta happens. The reason I zero'd in on 'technically feasible' was due to the fact that the paragraph was not absolute. We didnt want the advance launch to be a blocker to delay open beta. If there were any technical blockers that would make it impossible to fulfill this without delaying open beta then the paragraph would not be followed i.e. IZ launching weeks before open beta.

Lets dive in deeper. The issue the paragraph was trying to solve became irrelevant for two reasons: (1) Airdrop of Fuel crates ensured that there would be starting fuel when OB happens; and more importantly, (2) the P2E version of IZ wont be ready by OB.

Johnny wrote in the IZ channel “Yes it sucks that Illuvium Zero for land holders probably won't be be ready before Open Beta, [...]”

As for (2), based on what you quoted, what I got from this is that there are blockers on selling fuel whether it be the order book system or some other technical issue. I too would like Labs to be make a statement on this to be make it clear. However, from my perspective there is a legitimate technical blocker from letting P2E version of Labs hence the workaround.

On your other comments, unfortunately, only Labs can provide more context and Im happy to share that both ICC and IMC are asking Labs to provide context and updates on this and eventually have some sort of official statement regarding it.

I would like to make it clear though that I personally believe that it would be more short-sighted to put on pause/delaying open beta just for a P2E version of IZ when the whole premise of IZ is still being fulfilled by the workaround. Land owners are promised to get 5% of the revenue. The previous IIP supported this and what Labs will be proposing will ensure this applies to fuel purchased by gamers too.

Yes, the whole "open market" part of IZ may not be available from OB but if Labs figures out a way that IZ landowners are getting their share based on their fuel production when they play the game albeit in a roundabout way then I see that as a valid and viable option.

tardy raptor
#

not having p2e is not an option, no amount of compensation can help, no amount that ilv will be willing to give.

#

the bad thing is that council is supporting these shady moves and without council, theres nothing that can be done for the community.

launching p2a without p2e is next level stupidity and im not sure how you guys do not see it. you are doing it purely for numbers, not to keep people playing, not to boost the project. u just want numbers and u have a date in mind near halving, thats all, nothing behind it.

#

how this project did not learn from the half baked release of arena, i do not know, but we are doomed to repeat the same mistakes as long as the same people are in charge.

covert spire
# harsh shadow I was part of the strategy subcouncil and I recall that this particular paragrap...

I thought about writing a proposal to hold rev back and make it based on weekly/biweekly fuelsales, also write an iccp to Change it in iip-45. Airdropping fuel based on Tiers has so many disadvantages.
But reading this Chat, holding rev back would get many Oppositions of landholders who wanted to pay their OW travels with IZ fuel. So i guess thats not really worth the time writing it.
Probably still gona write an iccp for changing it in iip-45.

#

Did i get it right, IZ f2p is actually ready for pb4 but paid land isn't?
So we went from IZ ready prior to open Beta but f2p will come later, to f2p being ready prior to open Beta and paid plots come later?

#

That sounds like marketing departement shot in it's own foot

hard sun
covert spire
#

I probably read that comment totally wrong back then.
Like is this an ongoing thing for the future, prioritizing f2p more than paid Land?
And "this is not about deprioritisong land holders" is actually a simple "we just airdrop fuel and we are good" Kind of thing?

So there's actually no rush for paid land? Rather make a good f2p experience?

storm gull
storm gull
sharp pine
storm gull
#

(regarding Johnny's message)

covert spire
tardy raptor
#

i honestly cannot believe that the people in power and the people with votes cannot comprehend that we are about to experience massive loss from this, this is the biggest L in web 3 thats about to happen

#

hundreds of millions spent on this project and its in such condition

cosmic lintel
#

Not really sure I understand the logic here. It's like the old saying, "don't throw the baby out with the bathwater" lol.

Kieran has already addressed this- land holders will get their 5%. Are you concerned you won't get the 5%, or are you concerned that people are getting 5% for doing nothing but holding? Seems like for land holders, what's the issue here?

cosmic lintel
covert spire
covert spire
river dragon
# harsh shadow I was part of the strategy subcouncil and I recall that this particular paragrap...

I believe it’s clear that this part “Illuvium Zero will be launched IN open beta AS EARLY AS technically feasible [...]” is related to timing. This means IZ is to be launched IN open beta, which happens WHEN it’s technically feasible.
Then, the part “prior to Illuvium Overworld” is also clear and refers to the sequence which is Zero BEFORE Overworld. The conjunction AS EARLY AS is completely different than IF.

Perhaps you wanted to mean “Illuvium Zero will be launched in open beta IF technically feasible and will be prior to Illuvium Overworld IF technically feasible.”

Or simply, to allow maximum freedom could have been “Illuvium Zero will be launched WHEN technically feasible.” This allows to launch Open Beta and Overworld, without Illuvium Zero.

But then, you might realize the meaning of the new sentence is completely different from the initial sentence and the following one which explains the initial intention of the timing and sequence.

I understand the two reasons you described for completely disregarding that part of the IIP and allowing this workaround solution, but I think it fails to acknowledge the existence of other benefits that come with launching “P2E” or I would prefer saying Illuvium Zero — the whole marketed game — before, or at least, alongside the other games. There is more to it than the 5% as airdrop that I keep reading. I find the constant rhetoric that the workaround is close to being just what we deserve and that there is no reason to complain to be quite exasperating.
Yes, it might be a viable option, but it’s definitely to the detriment of land players. Especially the way it is being inadequately handled; mainly lacking transparency.

tardy raptor
# cosmic lintel Not really sure I understand the logic here. It's like the old saying, "don't th...

thats the problem. between promises, expectations, reality and the fact that we cant possibly find all the info, most people dont really know whats happening.

on release when the community feels what illuvium did to us, its about to get very interesting. its about much more than the 5%.

you being in the council and not knowing whats the issue is saying enough, this is the time when we need the council the most, when their vote and voice matters the most.

they say they think about long term, but they think about the next 1-2 months at most with that airdrop. the thing about long term is that you shouldnt kill your game before gettin there and killing a game is almost always tied to unhappy community.

There isnt a single soul that would tell you that land is worth even before these news, land is useless and investors are never priority , fp of land is going to drop even further, theres a point at which a community just gives up after a certain amount of loss, yall r pushing it .

they sold 72m worth of pixels (yes, without p2e our land is just useless pixels) and used and ignored us for 2 years straight (omg 15$ airdrop), now theyre about to kill our investment and plans and they prioritized p2a over p2e even though they had a chance to make land worth 10x of mint price with this airdrop, they decided that it should be valued at zero.

if they did not have money to pay for p2a, they shouldnt have used the p2e money and time.

no matter what hype yall are imagining that this would create, its all fake numbers that would go away as soon as airdrop goes away. investors CANNOT play the game, i waited 2 years and wont be able to play for 2-3 months! ilv will not sustain your gameplay!

this is the most lame situation they could hav e cooked up. would have been fine if it was setup in a way that would benefit the ppl that paid for the games. this will only hurt ilv in the long run and feed airdrop hunters that would leave as soon as they claim, nothing else.

near aspen
tardy raptor
#

<@&1107754780744487002> IIP to use safety pool to hire more devs to finish p2e on time instead of delaying OB?

these are the only two options we have that will keep everyone happy. sorry for the tag if its not allowed, but we need to get things moving if we want to make it, if its still possible.

sharp pine
#

hiring takes time
training takes time
it's not that simple to just deploy funds and speed up things

wispy shoal
#

I think that's what we call IRL,
hire an intern with NDA for 5 - 6 Years.

tardy raptor
#

or maybe we will make it on time, which is why we need to get things going and probably an opinion from johnny or someone else

sharp pine
#

so far, theres no official statement whether IZ P2E will be launched with OB or post OB

#

i think we should establish that first before going further

neat cipher
#

Man if only I knew I could just buy land with free coupons I wouldn't have just spent Eth how dumb am I?

stuck briar
neat cipher
cloud echo
cloud echo
storm gull
#

I'm still wondering how it's possible that F2P for Illuvium Zero lands got such a priority from one day to another, even if the community clearly rejected this thread.
It doesn't fit into the narrative that Illuvium constantly communicates that we're a DAO and the community has a word in the big decisions when, in the end, IIP-39 is useless as the best example regarding the Illuvium Zero land part in it.

https://discord.com/channels/760344898200666112/1210724391089078303

cobalt sphinx
#

Free to play has always been part of the IZ plan.

We aren't spending time building some big new free to play features, we are just taking advantage of the fact that some of the systems that are not quite done yet for p2e are not required for f2p so we can release it earlier.

There may be a handful of activities where effort is not directly correlated with pushing p2e forward, but its a very small percentage of effort.

tardy raptor
#

2 years waiting after purchase and we will not be able to play, why is this happening?

#

we need a solution that will get p2e online on launch at any cost, what can be done except delay?

split horizon
sharp pine
#

i think the matter is settled.
what i would suggest is to discuss the compensation for delay

split horizon
sharp pine
#

for example.

  1. 10% of revdis instead of 5% while IZ P2E is delayed post OB
  2. Speed ups. The amount should be 8-16 hours/day of delay
  3. Fuel and elements airdrop or production boost. for use with the speed ups.
    the idea is landowners can recover the time lost because of the delay
sharp pine
tardy raptor
split horizon
split horizon
tardy raptor
#

even if they fill all 3 of these things, its still not enough. its still not equal to having the game functional. holders of land cannot play the game ? no amount of compensation helps, no amount that they will be willing to give. we must not give them airdrop option, because they will do the same thing as the previous time, throw us nothing. it will give them an excuse that they have done something. do not accept that, ever.

#

u must think like them in order to understand what they can/will do. they did it once and theyre literally ready to throw their investors under the bus, you think they wont throw you 15$ again and tell you to save yourself? "speed ups" this shit i dont even wanna hear : D

storm gull
fiery wind
#

If it is the order book or backend development holding up OB release of IZ, @cobalt sphinx @silk moss is it possible to have a version of IZ available to play and progress that you could sell the fuel for account bound fuel coupons to pay for Overworld runs? After wading through tears and pointless debates of this thread there seems to be 2 actual valid points that need solutions b4 OB release.

  1. Land Holders that bought land to partially supplement Overworld runs (the account bound coupons solve this problem if it can be implemented).

  2. The 5% earnings for land are supposed to be based off playing the game to progress to sell fuel. If we just airdrop the 5% to all land holders we aren't giving agency to the players and we are rewarding land flippers to value that they wouldn't have achieved through progress.

split horizon
neat cipher
austere willow
# fiery wind If it is the order book or backend development holding up OB release of IZ, <@21...

Someone can correct me if I am wrong here, but re 1) it would have always been you selling fuel for eth and then using the eth to buy fuel, there could be a cool button to press, that does that for you, but it wouldn´t change that mechanic.

The 2) part is an interesting one and my main takeaway from the thread as well, that some people expected to outperform others due to gameplay and some others e.g. expected to get scholars, so airdrop just based on non gameplay e.g. tier would change the expected roi depending on how people wanted to approach the game.

split horizon
tardy raptor
#

we cannot mess this up guys, seems like ilv doesnt care, so its up to us and im glad that more and more people from council and the community show up to pitch in, i just hope something gets done and not just talks, cuz time is flying and some of our options are time sensitive.

austere willow
fiery wind
river dragon
river dragon
cobalt sphinx
#

Yes the decision to release f2p before p2p was made recently for the reasons I mentioned above and for those mentioned when that decision was originally made (i.e. supporting the the airdrop and marketing efforts). The point is this has almost no impact on the p2e availability as the vast majority of f2p work is just stuff that needs to be done for p2e anyway.

I posted that note because the tenor of the thread seem to be suggesting we had thrown some vast amount of effort in f2p only features, sacrificing p2e along the way, which is untrue.

#

I don't think its for the benefit of Land Holders to delay the Overworld or to delay the f2p release. These things are likely to increase the value of land and generate revenue which is of benefit to land holders. Having a presumably large f2p player base test the game before the blockchain release is also quite beneficial.** But you are welcome to disagree and attempt to gather support for that disagreement to turn it in to an action.**

I'm just trying to ensure the facts are clear: if we stopped any thought of f2p and just pretended it didn't exist, it would only have a very minor impact on the p2e release date.

river dragon
#

It’s about the priority of launch. Making the big launch with only ⅕ of the game (being generous here) is not the same as making the big launch with the full game. Is it so hard to acknowledge that?

Yes, I strongly believe that making the big launch without Illuvium Zero is to the detriment of not only Zero players/holders but the whole ecosystem. I think your priorities are not in the right place for the long-term vision of the ecosystem.

#

I think gathering support will not change anything. No support was needed to decided on the Q2 launch date, knowing it would mean Zero is excluded.

cobalt sphinx
#

Why are you mentioning my priorities, I didn't make this decision. I just facilitated the decision by providing the data around the different estimates.

#

"I don't think gathering support will change anything." -> Then why make or comment on the thread? Surely the point of this thread is to gather support for some kind of IIP or ICCP?

#

The council makes decisions all the time, not every decision comes from a community feedback item, but the feedback process allows the community to gather support for an idea to make a change.

river dragon
cobalt sphinx
river dragon
cobalt sphinx
#

If your argument is one of process, then make that in a separate thread.

split horizon
#

@cobalt sphinx is it the blockchain aspects that won't be ready in time? How did those fall behind?

cobalt sphinx
#

I don't particularly appreciate bearing the ill will here given not only did I not make the decision, I am actively in favour of making rules to make the governance process more clear and binding.

split horizon
#

And isn't it important to test on-chain fuel and the order book system during testnet beta?

#

This whole situation is obviously not what land owners wanted, but I really don't think people should be blaming any one person for it, especially you as one of the main people willing to jump in and answer questions!

cobalt sphinx
river dragon
# cobalt sphinx If your argument is one of process, then make that in a separate thread.

I was actually thinking of proposing something about governance and transparency. But to be honest, I find myself in charge of upholding that, and really I didn't invest that much in Illuvium (sans the emotional stake). I'm just not sure if I want to get into that. I can find other games to play and so can future possible players. It's just like I said, a bit sad for the project.

split horizon
river dragon
cobalt sphinx
cobalt sphinx
# river dragon I was actually thinking of proposing something about governance and transparency...

Governance is a painful and frustrating topic (honestly I prefer to stay out of it for these reasons, I've had my Durable IIP solution written up for a long time before posting).

But I think maybe you should consider you are just overestimating the impact here. There's only a handful of features that wont be ready in f2p version that will need to be completed for p2e version. Its not locked in that IZ (p2e) wont be ready for Open Beta and who knows what Overworld and Arena public testing (in PB4) reveal.

river dragon
#

Unless you plan to change that at one point. Then maybe the impact will be limited to your early community.

cobalt sphinx
#

I disagree with that thesis. I doubt investors or players give a damn once the games are out regardless of the specific order of release. Most investors will only care about making money and players will only care about fun games (and making money).

split horizon
cobalt sphinx
#

I think he is being atypically conservative there.

split horizon
river dragon
cobalt sphinx
#

I'm on holidays for the next few days but when I get back let me list out the items that are not done for f2p/p2e so we (you all) can see a clear picture of how little difference there is.

river dragon
#

Sounds good. Enjoy your holidays. Looking forward more transparency and communication when you come back.

cobalt sphinx
#

The only ones that spring to mind are the formation of mega cities interface, and the NFT integration of dyes. There might be a few others, and there might need to be some additional load and security testing for the Fuel Exchange interactions. But the feature parity is close, and the Fuel Exchange has its own development team (although Igor heads backend for both) ... it is on track for Open Beta.
(Don't consider this a binding list, I'll compile a proper one on my return.)

#

Alright I'm out, ciao!

split horizon
#

You're the best!

river dragon
hard raven
#

I’m frustrated as a land holder with the delays and lack of information around things like mega cities ect.
I have given this a thumbs down because I believe that the launch of o/w and arena are the most important priorities. Holding the project and DAO to ransom to force zero to be released with them will only hurt the project overall. Imho.

cloud echo
neat cipher
cloud echo
tardy raptor
#

ok, so after all this has been said and johnny confirmed that theres still time to delay OB, lets take action. any council member willing to cook up an iip to stop OB from launching until p2e is done?

the other acceptable option is using safety pool funds to make sure p2e is live on time, but we dont have enough info if thats still doable, the team keeps wasting time and thats their goal, the closer we get, the less options we have, except full delay.

#

that includes megacities and whatever, fully functional zero.

#

stop enabling illuvium to use you, stop allowing them to make fun of you. demand what was promised, we paid!

#

not a single person from team or council is feeling good about this decision that has been made by someone up top. u can literally see how they regret that it has come to this, but they cannot do anything, ONLY COUNCIL CAN.

harsh shadow
#

We are doing a fact-finding to get a better picture where iz is currently in relation to ob launch.

While I commend your commitment and tenacity on this subject it would be too early to mobilize something we don't have a full picture of. I assure you that with ICC and imc is looking deeper into this. Until labs is able to give more info I ask patience as we still have the whole of q2 to act on this if there is a need

tardy raptor
harsh shadow
tardy raptor
#

thats good, but make sure they give us solutions that make p2e happen on time. no other option is or should be acceptable. no excuses, no airdrops, no half baked releases. ty : ))

#

let them know that a delay is coming if they cannot make it on time and theyll make it on time.

neat cipher
# cloud echo The ILV isn't spent* It would be like saying I bought a car, but driving to the...

The car isn't spent, but buying the car means there are less cars available, which increases the price of all the cars. So the people who have lots of these cars got increased value while the car was driving to the shops, and in that time they could sell or use cars with a greater value to pay for stuff. So for buying a car and driving it you get rewarded, with a valuable thing, otherwise no one would do you that favour

#

Nothing free in all of that, no free coupons, no free drive. It all has value, silv2 has the same value as ILV as it was decided, and ILV is worth USD. And 72m USD worth were spent in buying land.

cloud echo
neat cipher
tardy raptor
#

i also think they did, they just decided to burn it .

cloud echo
#

To be clear, I agree that landowners continuously prop up the DAO in terms of engagement and spend. And are incredibly important to respect. I personally hope that Illuvium Zero P2E is ready before Open Beta. But ultimately if that were to be a decision with risk of bankrupting the DAO then I wouldn't go for it for obvious reason

#

I also agree that F2P Illuvium Zero does basically nothing, and wouldn't have been bothering with that personally. With the exception of this doing something beneficial for existing landholders, which has been discussed but we are yet to see any proper details

neat cipher
cloud echo
#

For example landholders producing a special item that F2P players need to purchase to access a specific part of the game. I can come up with a billion ideas

neat cipher
#

Having F2p zero to be beneficial to landowners that is

cloud echo
#

But don't listen to me, I am a bit anti-mobile guys, yall know that

tardy raptor
#

ilv itself is not built for f2p, eventually ppl need to spend.

coarse ingot
#

I would ask @summer ginkgo to come into this chat and answer our questions:

The way I see it:

You plan to basically take away IL:Z from land owners and repurpose it for F2P airdrop farmers. It will produce airdrop points instead of fuel until some vague time in the future.

We land owners have already developed our lands for basically useless T0 blueprints, now we need to do it again to farm airdrop points in PB4 and then do it again for OB.

And then maybe during OB we can also produce fuel, but with all the broken promises before, it could be years before we can produce fuel.

I can tell you that IL:Z in its current form won't be a fun F2P game until it incorporates features like Illuvial leveling with social elements and becomes a real companion app to OW or even has OW features like automated drone runs etc.

It looks like giving away airdrops now to short term grinders to prop up some numbers, while destroying the value of paid land and the trust of the existing community.

I have lots of questions about overall Illuvium economy (or what is left of it), business plan, the lack of a real F2P mobile game and strategy, but let's assume you have it all figured out:

How do you plan to reimburse land owners during the beta phase ?

PS:

At this point I see land as an investment and not a game and don't want to grind like all airdrop farmers just to get what they will get.

Basically I don't want to spend any more substantial time on developing my plots and expect to get much more than grinders will ever get, plus fuel from day 1 to pay for my own OW runs.

PS 2:

Maybe drop the idea of having a mobile game during airdrop season and do a special one just for mobile gamers later on.

Without a good F2P game that will keep players engaged and come back with a good feeling we will probably do more harm than good to F2P mobile players and the Illuvium community.

Take the time to develop a good F2P mobile game and don't rush it.

We need to really talk business plan and strategy. We should at least have a plan and not be spoon fed last minute decisions.

tardy raptor
#

pls do not ask for things instead of finished game, thats why we r in this situation, because they see it as an option to release half baked stuff and drop you few bucks that will not do anything for you. we need the game finished, nothing else helps.

we will get zero launched on time or the time will be moved.

#

do not look at the votes here, council is with us. it will be done.

coarse ingot
#

Even with all the games „finished“ they will do the airdrop, but I don‘t want to spend any more time developing my lands like F2P grinders, who have never paid for land. Land owners need to get all sorts of perks to be ahead of F2P players in all cases be it delays or shift in priorities.

hard raven
#

Free to players won’t be earning from the land plots will they?

sharp pine
#

they will, thats the idea

#

we dnt know how much, but as johnny said why would people play F2P IZ without earning

#

i wouldnt

coarse ingot
# hard raven Free to players won’t be earning from the land plots will they?

They earn airdrop points while grinding a game they would never even touch without an airdrop. It will make Illuvium look bad because they will hate the „game play“ that only makes sense for selling fuel. And even that is highly questionable given the fuel rail and the lack of game play once your land has been fully developed.

tardy raptor
#

and t1 costs 600+ $, theyll have to be earning 20 times less not to kill land value

coarse ingot
#

But isn‘t it Kieran’s plan to give airdrops to Zero mobile players? He wants a mobile game during airdrop season.

tardy raptor
#

ye thats ilv airdrop, not fuel production in whatever way or earning through zero

sharp pine
#

so F2P plots can earn airdrop points, but P2E plots cant ?

tardy raptor
#

they will most likely and most likely there will be multiplier for holding certain tier, hopefully a juicy one as other projects do

#

we dont know how the airdrop will work, but thats pretty basic stuff ,so should be included.

#

im pretty sure that the entire economy will have to be adjusted, cuz there is no possible lower point than t1. t0 will become t1 imo. t1 into t2 and etc. anyone playing on t1 will know what there is no room, there is no chance for lower than t1 and being playable.

#

but it will still be too much of advantage free over paid considering the t1 prices. value will drop by a lot imo.

#

or they could play on t1 as well, but receive 1/20 of $ or something, no clue.

coarse ingot
#

Maybe they should drop the idea of having a mobile game during airdrop season and do a special one just for mobile gamers later on.

Without a good F2P game that will keep players engaged and come back with a good feeling we will probably do more harm than good to F2P mobile players and the Illuvium community.

Take the time to develop a good F2P mobile game and don't rush it.

We need to really talk business plan and strategy with Kieran. We should at least have a plan and not be spoon fed last minute decisions.

tardy raptor
#

theoretically i dont see how free would be able to earn if t1 earns so low amounts and costs 600$

#

also the fuel that they will produce will reduce earnings for paid lands by a lot, only 20k paid, infinite free.

sharp pine
coarse ingot
#

Then we need to talk with Kieran, because if we are at this point, I question his long term strategy or at least would like to see it.

#

Kieran is online now, I hope he joins in ...

harsh sandal
coarse ingot
#

IL:Z in is current form? Sure, there will be some, like 5 or 10 maybe 🙂

#

There are a gazillion mobile games that are 100 times more fun. And this is just a guess, probably 1.000.000 times more fun.

coarse ingot
#

When you think about it:

We wasted 2 years developing a game for 20.000 land holders that is no fun for our real target audience - the mobile mainstream casual gamer - and now we can't even deliver it to landholders, but have to give valuable ILV airdrops to grinders, just so we can artificially prob up the numbers and lie to VCs, that we have a fun game.

And we have known about this for more than a year, just look at all the comments in the feedback channel.

That's what I call a fuck up on a massive scale, how would you call it Kieran ?

tardy raptor
#

i kept sayin that we r about to witness the biggest web3 flop, glad someone is catching up, but its much worse than that if u dig deeper, which is what council is realizing and i believe theyll handle it properly.

cloud echo
sharp pine
cloud echo
# sharp pine if i want fun, ill play web2 games

Well u can earn from land plots in ILVZ. There is no reason to make a F2P earning game. It can remain niche. Now if Arena and Overworld were mobile also, it would make more sense and so this is more of a long-term idea.

sharp pine
#

arena rewards were F2P earnings
content creator rewards

cloud echo
# sharp pine but we are doing exactly that, airdrop for F2P

Yes and its fine. But it shouldnt be treated like something long term. But to be clear these 3 scenarios are entirely different.

Arena airdrop = more time spent in arena. = More time spent in overworld since u need to acquire Illuvials
Creator rewards = more users = more revenue
Illuvium Zero rewards = More F2P Illuvium zero players = no extra revenue (not to breakeven with rewards at least)

Obviously that is speculation, but its how I feel about the mobile gaming market in general hahah

sharp pine
#

i reckon kieran wants to tweet ??million downloads like mavia did

wispy shoal
#

if f2p allow to earn through land by selling fuel as well,
is like defeat the purpose when advertise only landholder allow to sell fuel.

Where do we stand actually as investor and landholder if becoming equal to f2p player? THINKING

tardy raptor
cloud echo
#

@rapid wharf maybe u can field this one

tardy raptor
#

is it just them making decision and then we have to be the grown ups and fix their mistakes, if so, shouldnt we be a bit harder on them?

coarse ingot
#

Maybe we should send VCs a link to our discussions here? Just joking at the moment. 😂

river dragon
cloud echo
# tardy raptor i mean was there voting if there should be airdrop for ilv zero , was there voti...

Infinite Free to Play lands was the concept since Illuvium Zero's inception and was including in the original IIPs. For the same reason the T2 virtual land exists in the game as of now. Votes for airdrops for ILVZ I suspect were a part of all the other internal airdrop discussions.

As for going live without it completed, Its my understanding it should be completed in time, but for a contingency I am unsure if it was ever discussed

river dragon
#

@sharp pine Where do you think the money will come from? If it's not from the organic gamer community spending?

tardy raptor
coarse ingot
cloud echo
#

And its not play to earn land. Kieran has said the airdrop distribution happens at the end of the season. So it would be much closer to something like arena leaderboards than 'play to earn'

river dragon
# hard raven I’m frustrated as a land holder with the delays and lack of information around t...

"Holding the project and DAO to ransom"? You got it upside down. The team is holding hostage fully delivering Zero and launching without it.

Instead of seeing it as delaying Arena and Overworld why don't we take the opportunity to prepare for a better launch. They can keep working on Arena, OW, Beyond, the website, the Illuvidex, marketing content, strategy, etc, during the period needed to deliver on Zero.

sharp pine
cloud echo
river dragon
sharp pine
river dragon
#

Like I said, this will kill the project.

sharp pine
#

web2 will come eventually, we have the runway for 2 years and if we raise more in the bull we can have longer runway

coarse ingot
#

Giving airdrops to IL:Z F2P players is different from Arena and OW:

IL:Z is not a fun game by itself - if you take away fuel production and sale.

It is a financial game for land investors and if you want casual gamers to play it, you need to replace fuel with ILV airdrops.

And that pisses of land holders, because it does not generate new long term gamers or land investors, just probs up numbers for VCs.

sharp pine
river dragon
sharp pine
#

amazon, uber

river dragon
#

Amazon has always delivered. So did Uber.

#

Which is why their business was viable

sharp pine
#

what they did was to burn money to acquire customers and scale up

#

airdrop is to acquire customers, all other web3 games are doing it

coarse ingot
river dragon
#

Taking a loan to deliver a good product is different than raising capital and instead of delivering a good product, you focus on marketing stunts.

This discussion started with you saying that gamers will go to web2.

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Without organic gamers the project is an unsustainable lie. It's simple.

sharp pine
river dragon
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You may think that you can scale up and later on deliver on the product, but I believe the longer you think and act like that the least probable it is to ever become a reality.

coarse ingot
# sharp pine the hope: 1. we can tweet bullish numbers to get traction. i believe web3 only p...

But do we really need a half baked mobile game for that to happen or is it even making it worse?

IL:Z does not even compare to Mavia, there is no excitement, no story and can it easily be botted and grinded in low income countries.

Are we really doing us a favor here?

I mean, what is the urgency for all of this?

Do we need to make more money now to extend the runway?

Do we want that money to come from the next VC raise?

Will VC really be that stupid to believe propped up numbers?

And if we continue down the route of just faking good games, will we ever have the urgency to deliver fun games to an organic gamer community?

At this point I would like to see the long term plan for IL:Z. What will it morph into? And when?

It has been going in the wrong direction for many years, because it still has nothing that would convince a casual F2P gamer to play it.

This is different from OW and Arena, here they changed direction and are making progress.

I haven't even seen a working copy of IL:Z, not even a video. If it is so close to being usable for an airdrop player then show it to us landholders. NOW!

sharp pine
river dragon
sharp pine
# coarse ingot But do we really need a half baked mobile game for that to happen or is it even ...

yes, i agree that IZ doesnt have the content that Mavia has, but that's all we got if we want to launch in Q2.
I believe we do have to launch in Q2 with whatever we got.
There are many web3 games launched or launching in Q2. We have the halving in 2 weeks. We cannot miss Q2.
Imo Airdrop is a marketing expense, will it pay off? Rarely. Can we afford not to do it? Maybe not.
Well, everything in web3 is propped up, even startups in Web2 propped up their GMV by giving discounts and promotions.
It is part of the investment game, pun intended.
I do know the token price and the vesting of the recent raise, maybe you can push the team to publish it so you can judge yourself if the VCs are smart money or not.

coarse ingot
cloud echo
coarse ingot
sharp pine
cloud echo
sharp pine
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Well, i personally do look at DAU to invest in other games.
How is it a sound investment if I know people are not playing the games?

coarse ingot
tardy raptor
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the more ppl invest in illuvium the worse itll get, once the investors stop investing in the game, ilv will take community seriously, cuz we are the only theyll be able to count on, then theyll deliever on every front. more than we want.

sharp pine
coarse ingot
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I am at the point of dropping out of such a money grabbing scheme. It will fail big time if all we care about is money. We will fight to death before we have any fun game for mainstream to play. They laugh at OW because they can play a million games more fun for free. Who thinks any mainstream gamer will ever pay for a run in the OW? Not a single mainstream gamer.

sharp pine
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Thats why i love web3 ser

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becker himself repeatedly said he doesnt care about the product, just trading the narrative and dump the pump

tardy raptor
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whos becker

coarse ingot
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I thought Illuvium would be different.

sharp pine
coarse ingot
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Yes, it means the web3 community just swaps money from one narrative to the next and milks it to death, while the real gamers never come and the long term investors will leave.

sharp pine
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I cant see how web3 games get adoption unless it earns u money

tardy raptor
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by having a fun game.

coarse ingot
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Yes, but that money needs to come from mainstream. There is no other way.

sharp pine
tardy raptor
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in ow, theres a payment waiting on every corner, so mass adoption is not possible

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even web3 players wont pay that much, cuz there will be nobody to sell stuff to, whales eventually will get tired of DCA : D

sharp pine
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unless, you give huge leaderboard rewards

tardy raptor
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yes that will guarantee u 10-100 players at least, same as arena

coarse ingot
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You can critize Yuga a lot, but they at least have a plan for mainstream adoption. I havem't seen one from Illuvium and I don't think they have a plan. I am pretty dissapointed @summer ginkgo and I am going to tag you until you show me your plan.

sharp pine
sharp pine
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The long term goal is to build an esport out of arena, but we know that it's gonna take some more time

coarse ingot
tardy raptor
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not possible. if tft couldnt do it with milions of players behind their platform, how would ilv make a game without even a concept in it yet to something that would provide money

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why would u choose such a genre for such a play even

sharp pine
sharp pine
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ive been saying that auto-battler is very niche, kieran finally admitted that. but what's done is done. We can look forward to OW

coarse ingot
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Basically make them pay for fuel to get the ILV airdrop.

sharp pine
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These farmers just want free money, we cant tweet bullish numbers if they have to spend

coarse ingot
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We are kind of going in circles. What is the main goal with OB?

I hear that is not about the runway, not about new VC raises, but all about attention from the web3 community.

What does this "short and fake" attention give us besides DAU numbers?

Maybe YouTubers get a short spark with high viewer numbers and then move on to the next spark.

But what does the DAO get from all this attention?

There just seems to be one faction robbing another faction. We are playing a meta game here, that does not seem to care about the long term prospects of our games, the community and the DAO.

river dragon
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I find it funny sad that this whole idea of rushing the launch is actually based on ego and assumption of nailing the timing of the bull run 😖

sharp pine
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yes i agree
i am not comfortable in testing PB4 for 1 month and OB testnet for 1-2 months
it feels rushed

coarse ingot
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More than rushed, just imagine OB has started and airdrop farming has begun.

There will be tons of issues and support requests and they will be busy fixing bugs for months. There will be no time to add features to games or even develop a new game.

I have experience with Yuga HV-MTL Forge and LOTM. There were tons of bugs that affected the leaderboard and they had to fix it for days. Then it broke again and so on.

This ended very badly for the asset prices, the community sentiment and Yuga has to work hard to regain trust.

There is also a chance trust can never be regained.

peak tapir
# coarse ingot More than rushed, just imagine OB has started and airdrop farming has begun. T...

On the same topic remember how long it took to fix the Beyond leaderboard issue? .. i think more than a month and we can't compare Beyond in terms of complexity with any of the other games. So this is a very good point

As for trust some of it is already lost.. remember they changing the Gamestop disks sales duration when it was close to the end. Also the extension on Beyond wave 2.. so we've had people leaving the ecosystem. What's the point of trying hard to get new people in when you can't keep your hardcore community here?
IRL i think some companies tend to value customer acquisition more than retention and it's not always a recipe for success imo

river dragon
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Yup, unless you really don't care about the long-term of the project. 🤷‍♂️

coarse ingot
# peak tapir On the same topic remember how long it took to fix the Beyond leaderboard issue?...

They would probably say PB4 is for fixing all the bugs and it will definitely help to give an airdrop for everyone who helps testing.

But OB is the mainnet moment with real money at stake and then you will see people really testing and breaking the system, you will also get cheaters and hackers.

I would not want to draw additional attention, if I was responsible as a developer or operations engineer. Just imagine you have to fix a broken leaderboard when the bug is reported days after and then you have write scripts to fix the numbers, recalculate, make people good on lost money due to these bugs ...

Maybe a few months into OB we can think about an airdrop that slowly ramps up the player base.

But I don't want to see a million new players on day one of OB.

Aaron once likened Illuvium to being a bank with games. I don't think a bank would open the doors with a big bang on day 1 of its operation.

storm gull
neat cipher
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To be honest looking at the big picture now it seems iip39 was made exactly for this situation, where no one needs or cares about IZ and the ecosystem can run itself. That's exactly why I and many others were against it, because otherwise they could not have launched without fuel production

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I feel scammed, I'm sorry but it's true

coarse ingot
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I got the same feeling when I saw IIP-39 and here we are ...

harsh shadow
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Theres too many threads I dont know where to share it hahaha but for all concerned parties, there will be a town hall scheduled next week. I will be sharing the list of concerns that was posted and dm'd to me to Labs in an effort for them to be addressed.

Once the town hall is posted as an event in the discord, I encourage everyone here to attend. Thank you!

tardy raptor
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they better not let me talk, cuz imma be salty : D

fervent island