#Illuvium: Zero | F2P + Guilds approach (longterm)

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rare crater
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Guilds:

  • Just bought land can create a guild
    ->Number of guilds limited by amount of minted Landplots (20K atm)
  • No member limit
  • Guild internal lottery (incentive for f2p)
  • Guild leaderboard (incentive for payed land to create a Guild with a lottery pool)

F2P:

  • incentivizing through lottery

Guilds and Lottery
Every Landowner of a t1- t5 can create or join a guild. There is no member limit for guilds. The Guild leader can create a pool for a lottery where after x amount of time a member (or multiple members) of the guild get a chance to win the lottery and get the prizes. The prizes and duration of the lottery are determined and sponsored by the guild leader and can be any amount of all assets mintable in Illuvium Zero. (so far fuel, BP, Dye… or ILV from the leaderboard, which idk if it is even possible)

Guilds and Leaderboard
A leaderboard for Guilds gets implemented where a Guild can earn ILV out of the ingame rewards pool. The leader can distribute the rewards to either himself, fill up the lottery, give it out to other/all guild members, or split it up between the different groups.
Since there is no PVP yet, the score for climbing the leaderboard is the sum of the score of all members and could be a mix of Land-level and buildings, where each building and each stage of a building has its own score. (maybe even implement biodata and facts found)

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Incentivise and balancing
F2P plots get incentivised by the possibility to win the lottery and get tradable assets.
The guild leader gets incentivised to fill the lottery pool to get members and climb the leaderboard for bigger rewards.
The overall ingame economy doesn’t get affected at all, since the assets of the lottery would be generated anyways.
The size of the guild would be somewhat balanced by nature, since a f2p rather looks out for a smaller guild to have a higher chance to win the lottery.
It might needs to have score-multiplier for lower tiers, or we see how well it gets balanced out by player. (Multiple low tier could gather and create a guild to increase pool size and therefore be more attractive to a big memberpool)

Advantages

  • The overall workload seems to me as relatively low, besides the new UI’s
  • People pay to play the lotteries in almost every country i know, so could be enough incentivise to win a lottery where you just have to pay time.
  • minor bot protection, since it isn’t a fix value per time an f2p plot can earn so it’s less attractive to get botted than other ecosystems.

Disadvantages (challenges)

  • Not really bot protection (my IT knowledge is to low to cover that)
  • Lots of new UI has to be implemented
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Haven't really put much time into it, just wanted to put it out there to brainstorm and see what others think. There are for sure things i missed or haven't even thought about.

stark gate
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I think it's a pretty good initial proposition and we can build on this. It doesn't 'inflate' the ecosystem and it gives the landowner agency to control whatever value the guild members (f2p players) are extracting.

potent minnow
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It’s an interesting idea. We need to bring in and retain as many players from mobile as possible and f2p is going to have to be a big part of it. Imo

hot acorn
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I did like the idea Kieran threw out regarding guilds and a connection to P2P plots. My feelings are the idea of getting rewards down those players, so if a guild decides to reward players to help increase activity I see no reason to add incentives to do so outside of what they receive from the players.

I actually feel this may create a situation of 'slave players' whereby guilds have a double incentive, one from the player, one from the possibility of reward for keeping players.
I see it leading to abuse of players.

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Along with aggressive centralized ' large company/guild, tactics and equity issues.

gusty anchor
# rare crater Haven't really put much time into it, just wanted to put it out there to brainst...

I like this proposition, but there may have to be a skill-based game that underlies the leaderboard instead.

Bot problems:
Building and gathering resources is what bots excel at, so a leaderboard based on that would quickly skew towards tech savvy guild leaders with X bots.

A question on that front remains: would bots be an issue? If the bots have to spend enough speedup coins to make up for the rewards they recieve, then it could be a boon to the DAO. I dont know whether that would make sense though. (Spending a lot on multiple accounts to rank first and gain a few rewards 🤔)

Guild member cap:
Guilds with more than 75+ players come with a few difficulties as well. Probably better to limit IZ guilds to 50-100~ players especially while the gameplay is focused around building and waiting. You want guilds to be a hub of familiarity and keep people from being bored. In a bigger guild, there are too many people and you get social barriers around chatting freely. Moreover it would force players to join a chatting platform like discord if ingame chatting is limited, which pushes people out of the game and out of their experience. You could allow this on a higher level with a discord guild owning multiple in-game branches of 50-100 F2P players.

Tying this to a new avenue:
I would personally enjoy seeing the skill based game be centered around a new resource. The only way to obtain the resource is by sending out your crew (guild) to some place so that the land owner can make something, while the players would get fuel for their efforts.

exotic bloom
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I agree, a guild should be size capped, maybe not more than 30-50 to maintain group cohesiveness.

But you also mentioned the skill based game around a new resource.

Well, what if we combined both aspects?

The skill would be "bringing in new players", basically new players are the resource in this IL:Z meta game.

A guild member, who brings in new players would then basically start its own guild underneath their own guild. A network of small guilds.

This way guilds stay small, but can still grow the overall player base and your IL:Z land produces the most precious meta resource, players.

There could be a city hall building in IL:Z, that allows you to create referral links, see the income (from micro transactions, fuel sale etc.) your guild members produced, number of guild members, number of sub-guilds …

rare crater
# gusty anchor I like this proposition, but there may have to be a skill-based game that underl...

Absolutely, a skill based system would be best for that.
Bots are the main reason i don't like to make IZ p2e and imo we are far away from an IZ that isn't easy bottable.
That's why i tried to Make a System where there is no Inflation of assets even if it's botted, f2p has still the Chance to earn and an Investor in Land doesn't have a massive amount of additional time needed for each plot.

If it comes to guild member cap, i had to Make it limitless since just a landowner can open up a guild, otherwhise the total player number would have been capped aswell. And i didn't Liked it at a first glance, but why should it be capped? Besides the family and friends and you know everyone very good in your guild i couldn't Find a reason. Infact ibfound it a pretty interesting approach.

  • slowly growing to a Big mighty Organisation
  • you could ad something Like Divisions spezialized in a specific topic in IZ, with their own subchats to organize it
  • uniqueness. can't remember a game who have done limitless guilds. Always good to have aspects in your game which are unique.

But i can See the point where it takes away a bit of this family feeling.

rare crater
rare crater
exotic bloom
rare crater
# exotic bloom Yes, I heard that concern before. But I am not big in social media and are not c...

No absolutely not, but if so something Like this is the core Feature you are going to see not a gaming behaviour but a Recruiting behaviour, lots of dead Accounts, the "best" player are the one Big in social media etc.
The usual gamer is going to See the game more as a Recruiting job than a Fun game.
That's why i Find it interesting to reward those, bring in new Players is always good, but not working as a core Feature.

hot acorn
# rare crater I'm sorry i don't understand how slavery and abuse came into that 😅 Maybe you c...

Yeah. Sorry they are extreme words, used to highlight rather that be an accurate statement.
It's about positions of power and systems that use the efforts of those who are in lower socio economical situations. Be it country, lack of equity or opportunity.

Guilds get to receive ' goods' from players, and there is some type of incentive to do so.

If the guild is being insensitsed to get as many people playing as possible. It creates a pressure to reach that anyway possible.
It can lead to people being treated fairly, that they may accept due to the difference in dollar value and need to survive.

Id want to see that this couldn't happen. Garf had some ideas.

hot acorn
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Basically, create systems that raise people up rather than keep them churning so others get more x more on top of more.
Also I should say a persons value on a dollar, not the dollar value difference.

rare crater
# hot acorn Yeah. Sorry they are extreme words, used to highlight rather that be an accurate...

Idk imo it is a System to raise people up, f2p can earn value with the lottery raffles, paid Land (guild leader) can earn value with leaderboard.
If you join a guild or not if you wana earn is simple probability math with 2 factors $value of the lottery and the number of people eligible for that. (Total amount of members). Sure other factors could be added in future.
If you don't care about earning, you join the guild you Like.
Obviously in this early Phase you just need as many members as possible, but you have just 1 Tool to get more member in, increase the lottery pool. Which is Limited, since you don't wana spend more value in the lottery pool than you could potentially earn in the leaderboard.

gusty anchor
exotic bloom
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Only new players who spend money should be counted.

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For example, if they buy fuel to play the Overworld.

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I see Zero as a mobile client into the world of Illuvium, building a city to sell fuel is just one game mode.

gusty anchor
# exotic bloom I would see it as metrics to get ahead on a leaderboard.

Ahh right. So. We have a guild leader who recruits new players. That makes a new guild [guild Garf with 5 members]
Garf gives part of his fuel to the players in his guild to incentivise them to spend and get higher on the leaderboard
The 5 members play, spend anywhere and get guild Garf points.
At the end of the season, Garf is rank 5 on the leaderboard and gains leaderboard rewards.

And then, If my referral is dr.spoon, then Spoon can recruit more people and thereby he makes his sub-guild [the spoon men] and if his members spend then his guild would get points?

So the spoon men could get rank 1, and Garf would be rank 5?

In any case, i would be OK with referrals but i would not create a leaderboard for that. I would probably give a 1% boost to production per referral up to a max of X.

exotic bloom
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Yes, but Garf could get some points from Spoon, because he is the top guild. The details would have to be worked out well, to encourage the right behavior by everyone. The boost sounds like a good idea, although it could be any other reward, as long as it is per referral. I mean, none of this is different from what happens in the real world. We just need to find a nice way to gamify it.

gusty anchor
exotic bloom
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Exactly.

gusty anchor
# rare crater Absolutely, a skill based system would be best for that. Bots are the main reaso...

You are right. Limiting guild leadership to land owners would make for limited spots in guilds. Im thinking maybe anyone can make a guild. The guild leader chooses X amount to give to his members but there is a 5% fee. 1% goes to free to play guilds as a lottery based on performance
And 4% goes to the lottery in paid guilds.

20K lands, all producing 100 fuel would mean 95 fuel for their guild members as payment. 20K fuel to be distributed in a lottery for free to play guilds and 80K as lottery for the land owned guilds.

You'll get a push for activity to be added to a land holder guild, while you also incentivise people to try their hardest to get there through the free to play lotteries.

rare crater
# gusty anchor You are right. Limiting guild leadership to land owners would make for limited s...

it's an interesting approach, i had similar thoughts.
The reason why i choose to limit guilds, and not fill a lottery with external value is because of simply bot protection.
If you let a f2p gamer create a guild and that guild gets a share of something guaranteed, you will have loads of guilds of single accounts to farm that share.
If you set a limit and just guilds with lets say 10+ members get a share, those accounts just create 9 additional accounts to fill up to be eligible.
Didn't found a solution for it.

hot acorn
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Maybe I'm confusing this with kierans idea? That some of the things people collect on f2p would go to the guild they were associated with?

rare crater
rare crater
hot acorn
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Could it be considered gambling?
It's hard to explain what I mean insentivsing sweat shops.

A massive issue is people within the low socio economies.
Pray on people who will do ridiculous hours, taking them away from family and community. With very little in return. Along with people just doing it for themselves. Often multiple web3 games.
I can see this contributing to that. People will most keep pushing because they may get lucky.
I don't know.

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Something geta to me about the whole thing. Even what Kerian suggested. Even though at first It seems good.

I think it's just so land holders don't crack it, because they think F2p players will be in a better position than them, and have the possibility to work their way up.

rare crater
hot acorn
rare crater
hot acorn
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Then just drop it to them.

rare crater
hot acorn
hot acorn
# rare crater Idk what that means 😅

It means. Don't make a lottery. Tied it to effort.
Or some other metric.
Yes bots are a problem.
Yet I believe this is an issue for ILV labs to solve.
There are ways out there. Maybe the tech isn't ready yet.
One company I knew of has created a system to prevent Sybil attacks and multiple accounts stuffing the system. Rich has also mentioned things .

rare crater
hot acorn
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Regardless of the retric, anyone can use web3 games for gaining incomes.

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If that Is their main goal.

rare crater
hot acorn
rare crater
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I doubt it. 😄
You can't throw arround money and Make everyone happy.
Where comes this money from? How does the Studio pay developement?
If everyone playing a game earns money it means that more $ getting out than in, resulting in a net minus for the Studio.

hot acorn
hot acorn
rare crater
hot acorn
hot acorn
rare crater
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If you spend more Dollar than you get, there will come a Day where you have no money left.

hot acorn
hot acorn
rare crater
# hot acorn Where do you get spending more that is made? You can only make from what you sel...

If you wana let every player earn, the Studio has to pay. In Order everyone esrns, they Studio have to pay more than the player spends.
Money can't come from other player, since he has to earn aswell.

The only System where this would work is if Studio gets money from external sources like merch, Movies etc. And they also have to pay developement, producing those external sources and increasing those external sources as playerbase increases.

I would say it's already impossible for an already established Studio to choose that Way. For a Startup i don't See any chance

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Lets say illuvium goes live tomorrow and pays everyone 1$. If we get 1mio dau, because we pay everyone 1$. We increase the monthly Burn Rate from 1.5m$ to 31.5m$... instead of getting revenue to pay developement we create a Big $sink

hot acorn
hot acorn
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The market.

rare crater
hot acorn
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No.

rare crater
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Ok

hot acorn
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Not necessarily. Im totally okay with F2p land just being a diluted version of the whole ecosystem.

I don't think it needs guilds.
Or returns to land holders.
That's just my opinion.

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Yet you and others obviously like the idea. Plus Kerian put it on the table for discussion.
So I'll aim to be more productive on the how?

Can you see any other way than a lottery system?
Are you seeing the resources gathered from F2p being dispersed across all land holders.?

rare crater
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And instead of having a massive Invasion of bots destroying the ingame economy, i tried to come up with something... That something was the lottery System feeded from landowners, and to make an incentive for landowners to feed the f2p, the leaderboard came into play

hot acorn
# rare crater I don't Like the idea of f2p being p2e at all. I'm just trying to make the best ...

I understand. I don't think it needs to be looked at p2e yet more a feed in to the system as a whole. Yet that's another topic. It's hard for humans to see things differently when finding new systems. We always tend to bring in the old because it's familiar to us.

So Kieran threw it out there that he and Johnny had been brainstorming F2p, land and guilds. Mentioning a funnel of resources from the F2p players.

Your idea I'm feeling is a build on that?

Incentivising guilds with rewards, then the guilds passing those rewards onto F2p.
With a lottery.

Is there another way you can think of that doesn't involve a lottery.

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Is that the resources gathered by f2p players, wouldn't be used by them, and the guild idea you are suggesting is how they get into the other systems of the game?

rare crater
# hot acorn I understand. I don't think it needs to be looked at p2e yet more a feed in to t...

Not really tbh, not for implementing soon already and then build from there.
I started with some must haves like

  • ingame economy protection
  • some kind of bot protection
  • no massive increase in gametime
  • should be a win for all (f2p, paid Land, DAO)
  • should be an expandable System
  • work load for a first build should be minimal

It is really hard to find a system that covers all the bullet points.
I'm totally fine changing or Find a totally new System which applies to the imo Mist haves.

Onboarding in other modes like OW or Arena wasn't crucial to me, since they are 2 different audiences, once the mobilgamers mainly from countries where they can't afford high Performance Systems and all the others. Sure you have some overlaps, but thats a minority i think.

steel hedge
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Honestly i dont think guilds should be implemented in such a way, as it would be botted and abused in whatever way, even by top whales in the community.

Guilds doesnt work at all if theres earning in them and its somewhat tied to $, as it would be abused and it would require entirely new mechanics introduced to the game, which would make it way more complicated than intended here.

Guilds doesnt work at all if theres limit to it (20k land owners) , as only the most popular or most earning would be filled and land owners might also want to be in a guild with other land owners.

Guild system can only be implemented without any issues, if it provides only quality of life, it shouldnt even be free to put resources in guild bank if it costs something to transfer from user to user. Not to mention guild leader having the power to allocate wins , 100 % would be abused.

The only acceptable reward for a guild would be speedups, but for a guild to earn those somehow, it would need some statistics, some competition and guild leaders assigning rewards would mean that a single person can boost his own lands depending on his needs, which means it has to be automatic, based on something, which requires new mechanics for some leaderboard that would need to be carefully considered.

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I can already see a full t4 guild if theres advantage to it, i can also already see land owners making guild with their own free lands to boost their production if its possible.

Land Tiers and introduction of f2p plots would need insane consideration if the guilds are even slightly affecting economy.

hot acorn
rare crater
# steel hedge Honestly i dont think guilds should be implemented in such a way, as it would be...

Agree, bots going to be a problem whatever you do.

Guild Limit or not, it's always going to be the most popular filling up the fastest. A Limit in guilds would actually rather fight that problem than make it worse.

Most likely the guild leader will take all the leaderboard rewards. So he takes his Profit and fills the lottery pool again with a Part of the Profits value. Not "abused", calculated.

If you reward Speed ups, you basically reward fuel just usable in IZ, which infact would effect the economy unlike the intentioned rewarding System. But i agree, everything should be carefully considered.

That's why the lottery System, you can't push calculated, if you are lucky, sure.

Agree, it needs insane consideration.

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Didn't really read and thought about it, did you? 🙃
Just a quick Scan and started commenting.

steel hedge
# rare crater Agree, bots going to be a problem whatever you do. Guild Limit or not, it's alw...

land owners might/will want to be in guilds, not a lot of them would want to be leaders. i estimate 200 guilds at most if only land owners can make and the rest would be bot investors.

i didnt understand where these profits for lottery pool come, which is why i didnt even consider it as an option. any kind of $ wins will throw us into the void where it gets too complicated to balance.

speed ups are much more harmless than actual $, i was givin it as "best case scenario" if rewards exist at all in the suggestion, it doesnt have to have that either.

loterry doesnt pay to hard workers, lottery pays to numbers, further boosting bot creation.

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if i have 35% of the accounts in the guild, go win.

rare crater
gusty anchor
# steel hedge if i have 35% of the accounts in the guild, go win.

Then it comes down to making game modes that are difficult to bot right? Make a guild v guild mode where skills show through. You could have 80% of the accounts in the guild and it wont make a difference. You lose if you manage your bots incorrectly. And every game is different.

Or add kyc to the game 😏

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Note ^ if you want a pvp mode, it is difficult to make it guild v guild the bigger the guilds become. Imagine a game with 300 x 300 players. How do you make this technically possible. And how do you make it that each player feels useful; and even, how do you allow the guild leaders to manage 300 players across different timezones but also íf they show up, on the battlefield.

rare crater
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Joke.... For sure that would be challenging.
You could implement sub-Divisions Lead by officers for example

gusty anchor
# rare crater

Just saying that managing a 100 player guild, keeping it full and exciting everyone to play events was about an 80 hour job. Naturally i lacked the capabilities to effectively make division leaders. But I dont really see how 300 people would be manageable 😄
Naturally since the guild leader practically pays the guild, you do get some sort of weight and power. But it isnt simple. You need the in-game chat system and voice call system to be top notch.

rare crater
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Like for now we can just build up... I don't expect any time exhausting pvp or whatever features any time soon tbh.

gusty anchor
# rare crater Like for now we can just build up... I don't expect any time exhausting pvp or w...

But until you have an relatively unbottable event, you will be giving away leaderboard rewards to the best IT person.
So for now i dont see value in adding this system. But when a competitive gamemode is added, id be keen to have guild leaders pay their guild members and the guild members being integral for the returns of the leader.

I.e. an asteroid harvesting game with player to player interactions. Where occupying an asteroid the longest gets you more rewards. And so each team battles one another in some way to gain the most. And when everyone returns, both leaders gain X resources and the members get the prize pool that the guild leader put up orso.

rare crater
hot acorn
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I don't know if bots will ever be stopped either. There are people out there though creating effective methods to detect multiple wallet use.
Kyc isn't the only option and one I think Illuvium should avoid as a large cohort don't want to use it for fair reasons.

onyx imp
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So... basic idea is:
Landowners cast out nets to entice f2p players to come in and play their f2p land which will be connected to your plot... like n extension of sorts. They play their f2p plot in hopes of winning some share of the main landholders harvest. That reward is determined by the landholder. Bigger the share of the pie, the more incentive for ftp players to play.

There will be a leaderboard and all activity related to the landowners main plot, and all the f2p connected, add to the leaderboard rank for only the main landowner.

This wouldn't be mandatory. Landowners could just play their land and go about their biz... but the guild system has incentives for both extra leaderboard rewards and bringing new players into the ecosystem.

Sound right? Miss anything?

rare crater
onyx imp
# rare crater What do you mean with f2p being connected to which landplot?

I'm just trying to understand the idea.

So lets say I find 20 people that want to play a f2p plot. Let's also say they now have the f2p land in each their wallets. They all come to the Ratty Ass Guild to begin their lifetime of slav.... ahem, grinding to hopefully win some tradeable assets. Question: Are the F2P plots connected to my plot? Meaning, do they sign in so there's record that they are working for my guild and what progress they make? If not, how is all that determined?

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Also, what is the measure of success for a f2p plot? Is there any? What do they contribute to the ecosystem?

Seems like there's a lot of trust that would need to exist also... for a landowner to pay up X agreed amount to f2p players.

rare crater
rare crater
onyx imp
rare crater
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Leaderboard snapshot and lottery raffles could be at the exact Same time, don't think any trust is needed.... Or i missed something 😄

rare crater
onyx imp
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Can a f2p join or leave at any time? Thereby affecting ranking up to snapshot?

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Well.. the rewards are coming from the Paid plot and distributed to the f2p player right? Or do the f2p players get rewarded from the dao directly?

rare crater
rare crater
onyx imp
# rare crater Yes exactly. No, DAO only spend the leaderboard rewards out of the ingame reward...

Then trust fro the landowner to pay out as agreed.

If there are X thousand Land Guilds then there's a lot of room for drama imo.

I'm just really wary of babysitting f2p players who are trying to make something out of nothingwith an expectation they will perform up to X standard. What ISSS the incentive for landowners to manage them? Is it for the leaderboard rank/reward? Will that hyopothetically be enough to cover whatever is given to the f2p player?

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Also... Mega Cities obvs have a huuuuuge advantage in this idea right? F2P players will likely gravitate to the biggest baddest mamma jamma cities... whereas a t1 might find it difficulst to make and manage a guild and keep players.

rare crater
rare crater
onyx imp
rare crater
onyx imp
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Still.... it's kindda a whale game and benefits MegaCities most I'm assuming

rare crater
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Also t1 could Team up with other t1 to create a bigger pool

onyx imp
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That would be another question... Each land plot has their own guild or can say 12 land plots form a larger guild?

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So me and my 3 buddies all join our lands and make 1 large guild?

rare crater
onyx imp
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All this really, distributes a portion of Illuvium marketing to landowners... to bring new players aboard. Lots of reponsibility.

onyx imp
# rare crater Yes

I see... so that would also benefit entities like Polemos who already have a head start on scholaring... or others who are headstarting scholar programs

rare crater
rare crater
onyx imp
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I see

And there would be one guild Leader that manages all the other landowners/f2p under them?

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That's who would receive any leaderboard rewards... There would need to be trust to disperse those rewards to the other landowners under them right?

onyx imp
rare crater
onyx imp
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All this... and if people want they could opt out completely and just play their land peacefully?

rare crater
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Please note, thats just Like a very basic rough summary of what it could be. It's posted Herr to brainstorm additions/changes, advantages/disadvantages 🙂

onyx imp
rare crater
onyx imp
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I don't feel strongly for or against at this point... does seem like it has benefits and drawbacks. But could help bring people together to collaborate and build factions.

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But how much of this is realistic to implement upon OB launch?

rare crater
# onyx imp But how much of this is realistic to implement upon OB launch?

I don't know to be honest.

  • But considering they want to bring value to f2p before Launch, i feel bringing in some UI for guilds would be as minimal as possible workload.
  • Chats should be in anyways, adding a guild Chat probably not much extra work.
  • Leaderboards already exist in ilv ecosystem, so i guess it's also not too much work.
  • Lottery pool is a Big unknown.
    But i'm no dev, can't really answer that question