Free-To-Play Zero Land

[trim cove]

Allow Free-To-Play Illuvium Zero Land to earn FUEL and Blueprints (at a very low rate)

This will increase user acquisition and retention. The earning will be extremely small, but the additional earnings from “credit” purchases in-game could make up for it. These f2p plays may also decide to participate in other aspects of Illuvium including buying NFT land or staking ILV.

Potential implementation:
In-Game revenue changed to 94.6% ILV Stakers, Land Owners 4.9%, F2P Land 0.5%
F2P land will earn Synthetic FUEL (sFUEL) 20 sFUEL = 1 FUEL on market, but 1 to 1 in game to keep gameplay the same. All f2p land will be equivalent to a T1 plot
F2P land can find Blueprints at a 1/20 rate of NFT land and those blueprints are 1 time use only.

Would love to hear thoughts on this. These numbers may look like they’re taking away from the existing community, but I believe over time this will more than pay itself back with user acquisition and retention.

[prisma shadow]

This is a copy of my reply to your X post. I can see this working with some tweaks.

I really like this. It brings value and a connection to the T0 Overwold.
Make the blueprints only T0 illuvals. Id be okay with the blueprints being the same as the current system yet the highest blueprint achievable is a stage 3 T0. Make the F2p plot a T0 where everything is significantly reduced. This would encourage and provide the opportunity for people to move up within the ecosystem that are cash poor.

Rewards or rates on plots already purchased may need to be elevated as people didn't have this system to enter the ecosystem previously.
I see this would create a bigger market for land already purchased.

Yet maybe the current lands are called OGs or something, have a higher price and rewards system or stay the same. Then extra land could be sold that never has the same stats.

keeping the value of the plots already brought, and maybe even increasing them.

Another game I know of has implemented something similar, yet with NFT characters that were sold before people knew the exact way the game would work.

Free to play players are able to play to progress towards these nfts.

They have made the original NFT of status and no other NFT minted will ever have the value or stats.

I'm not keen on the FTp plots being anything tier other than 0 of resources can be used.
T1a are already at the bottom end and to me it makes sense within the current system of OW to follow the same graduation.

I also believe a some kind of limit would have to be applied to those that own land already or when a F2p player enters into the ecosystem by purchasing an OG land.
Like if you own land already perhaps T0 F2p is unavailable to you or can only be used up to it's highest rank.
This might not be necessary as to T0 fuels and blueprints would most likely be inexpensive on the market and would have to be a grind to get the value you need to purchase a T1, T2 ect.

[tropic chasm]

Thanks for starting a thread on this! I know Johnny has asked for ideas a few times in #🎮〕illuvium-zero, but it can be hard to catch him.

I like the BP idea you proposed here a lot because it provides a small chance at creating something real. The whole scanning/research effort does not serve much purpose for F2P otherwise unless they just want to look at a BP in their databank (ok, maybe someone would want to collect these, but a more intentional purpose is nice).

For fuel, I think we need to define the objective. In my opinion, it should be to get that ILZ player into other games in the ecosystem and less about allowing them to profit directly from the ILZ gameplay.

To do this, my suggestion is to mimic the purpose of on-chain fuel in relation to overworld to some extent. A F2P ILZ account could potentially use their fuel to purchase a T0.5 overworld run. This run could contain or have a chance to contain something of value that would normally require a T1 overworld run. Maybe even just a single T1 mineral deposit for example, but amount is flexible.

This would give F2P players a real goal/reward that would also encourage then either selling whatever they collect/harvest or buying 'real' fuel for a T1 run.

This would be simple, straight forward, and I believe fairly easy to implement.

[prisma shadow]

I'd actually be keen to have T0 blueprints. The skins could be really simple and only use the resources from T0. I see it as great way to burn up some T0 illuvals as well.

[trim cove]

I like the ideas here. Maybe instead of being about to sell this sFUEL to the market it can only be converted into other actions i.e. a T1 OW run or a standard D1sk

[tropic chasm]

I like your question on which tier a F2P plot should be. This needs a bit of discussion that I think has been neglected. If we are to implement raids or other features where F2P players are playing with land holders, that will need to be done in a way where F2P doesn't have an advantage over T1 land holders. They can't just have a free T2 strength plot, can they?

I'm not quite following part of what you posted though. Are you suggesting a F2P land plot could eventually work their way up to a T1+?

[tropic chasm]

Are there not T0 blueprints right now?

[prisma shadow]

It kind of introduces a F2p player into the whole ecosystem.

I see similar ( not the same ) as mmorpg games where, if you can't afford skins, resources, gear, new areas ( forgot the name of this method). You are able to grind, a very long and hard grind, to get the in game money to get what you need.

[trim cove]

T0 skins would be cool, but I was trying not to increase scope. If the team now needs to develop all these new skins it takes resources

[prisma shadow]

I don't know.

[tropic chasm]

I think it's a lot simpler if sFuel isn't on-chain.

[tropic chasm]

Gotcha, I see what you're saying though because it could be limited to F2P either way.

[prisma shadow]

Yeah that could be an issue, yet they still developing them. They could just be simple modifications of the basic ranger suit. Just changing colours ect. I know there are the drones too. Yet that could also be just slight changes within the parameters of a basic suit.

[prisma shadow]

Yeah. If that's the case of course.

[prisma shadow]

Ah I probably didn't make that clear. I was thinking from selling the items, which would take a long time.

[prisma shadow]

I get where you are going with this, yet I wonder if putting something in that may need significant changes later is creating more work for devs and frustration to players.

I also think T1 got a major nerf due the higher land holders not being happy with the conversation rates. So it might be a little bit of another thing that makes it even less great to have a T1

[final temple]

What nerf?

[prisma shadow]

Nerf might be the wrong word. Yet afaik it was discussed to make T1s significantly different to the other tiers, because of people's perception they could get the same level using converters. Maybe thats not true anymore.

[tropic chasm]

I think you're right that they're nerfing converters in general, which will impact T1 the most. I don't think we have any idea how much that is though, it may just be very subtle still.

[prisma shadow]

T1s was all I could afford and the same with others. I wouldn't want more things making the plot less worth it.

Regardless I really like this conversation and the concept is being discussed.

[tropic chasm]

Standard d1sk option is a good addition since some ILZ F2P players won't have a laptop capable of overworld.

[prisma shadow]

That's kind of cool. Is the market place on mobile yet?

[prisma shadow]

I like the idea of being able to sell fuel and use it.

[tropic chasm]

I've never even tried actually! MM is, so I'd assume there's an IMX marketplace that's mobile ready.....hopefully

[trim cove]

Yes, this is a slight problem. I dont think it's in the cards anytime soon, but long term I'd like to see OW on mobile. Maybe by 2030 haha

[prisma shadow]

I know from the harvest a lot of communities get together and share groups of PCs if they can't access them. Only if they can make returns though.

[native haven]

I am against this idea for 3 main reasons

1. The main selling point of Illuvium is “Asset Ownership” combined with “a Fun Engaging Game.”
   This proposal makes our narrative more “come and play our game because you might be able to earn money” rather than “come and play our fun and engaging game which has the added benefit of asset ownership”
   Narrative is KEY and we need to get it right!

2. Illuvium Zero is out of all 3 initial games clearly the one that will be easiest to bot, having a way to extract value with no investment is an issue, especially when its not just T0’s but actually a share of the entire revenue the game makes… 😬

3. Gamers HATE this type of mechanic! In Overwatch 2 it takes 32 weeks of completing all the weekly challenges to unlock 1 single Legendary Skin, (in OW1 it would have taken about 7 hours of gameplay to get the same lol) that you can just buy instantly… and Gamers hate it… this is exactly what this is, its not fun to engage in but incredibly frustrating and as far as I’m concerned better they dont have the chance to earn for free than have an impossible climb to reach it in IZ. Its not fun and its something only Bots and people multi-account grinding 100 accounts in poor countries where doing so might be worth the time spent. Not a great look.

Conclusion
The F2P experience already allows players to experience every mechanic of gameplay for themselves free of charge as a taster, there is no need for them to also experience “revenue share earnings” free of charge especially when there is nothing engaging about reaching that point since its an insane grind that isn’t fun anyways, players hate f2p mechanics that are disgustingly impossible to engage with and just tell you “you might as well spend money on our game” this proposal is unnecessary, a waste of dev attention span and resources if they were to work on it and potentially dangerous both to our narrative and because it could be exploited.

[prisma shadow]

I see what you are saying here. Valid points. I've been in Games where the grind is so hard it's disheartening. I've also been in others where the reward or purchase is achievable through playing the game. People who are dollar poor yet time rich are able to get things they wouldn't be able to otherwise.

I see this as a reward for time. You time is the currency.

I don't see the narrative changing, I see it expanding to provide opportunity to move up within the game if your are $ poor yet time rich.

If some right it doesn't have to be about sweat shops creating cash.

[drowsy fulcrum]

Team are already doing something with T0 land. @lofty bobcat not sure you can shed any light on anything. Can you confirm you are doing something with F2P land.

[topaz patrol]

1. I prefer the reward for F2P IZ to come from the ILV in-game rewards pool. I do not agree to give away revenye from stakers and landholders.

2. I prefer for the reward to be in ILV token, rather than in fuel or synthetic fuel.
   Rewards in fuel may disrupt our 1:19 ratio, or take away potential revdis if sold on the Fuel Exchange.

3. I prefer not to force the IZ F2P players to play OW. Farmers just want to play games and cash out. If they decide to reinvest in IZ or OW, it should be their own decision.

4. I prefer a separate F2P blueprints for IZ F2P. I do not want to devalue IZ Plots. I do not see blueprints as a good incentive for F2P players, they just want to receive liquid cash

5. I am suggesting IZ leaderboard to incentive F2P players to spend money on speed ups or even entice them to buy plots.
   Maybe a shared IZ leaderboard (F2P and non-F2P) or two-leaderboards system, F2P and non-F2P.

[prisma shadow]

That's right, his plan is still out there. I forgot, kind of keen to see that.

[buoyant compass]

Land is a investment vehicle

You don't need to attract player to land

Attract to overworld and arena, that's where to money will be made

And there are already rewards distributed to get non-paying-player, no need on top of that to trash more revenues

Y'all need to stop mixing everything under the "IBG-banner" ... You want land to be a real game ? Then separate land for investor that generate fuel from land "the game" where fuel don't matter.

Y'all want to attract players ? Then focus on what matters: OW&A

[drowsy fulcrum]

Illuvium zero is on mobile and will actually have the best chance of getting a large install base and bringing people into the ecosystem. I think* the plan is to do something that rewards people for playing T0 land and allows them to use whatever they get in the main games. Thus driving the mobile player outreach into the rest of the ecosystem.

[buoyant compass]

I don't know the strategy. Asked for years. So I don't guess anymore.

In current state of the games and what we know. This idea bring nothing.

[prisma shadow]

There has been a lot of discussion about it. I'm not sure about the original idea. Yet I see merit in it.

[topaz patrol]

we are doing a mavia

[mortal breach]

who said that?

[topaz patrol]

#🎮〕illuvium-zero message

palworld and mavia have been great influence on us

[mortal breach]

mavia is a copy of CoC but with web3 elements lol

[topaz patrol]

it works

[mortal breach]

game is sh1t just like palworld

[topaz patrol]

and yet here we are

[mortal breach]

keep tracking their DAU numbers and we'll talk later

[topaz patrol]

and 2m download?

[mortal breach]

that's the 1st week numbers

show current numbers
and palworld if you have the courage

[mortal breach]

rip

[topaz patrol]

now show our dau chart if you have

[mortal breach]

of what? an unreleased unfinished game? bruh get real

[topaz patrol]

its really good that we adapt to the market, idk why you dislike it.
means team is listening to what the market wants

hmm

@mortal breach gaming is rip?

[prisma shadow]

Doesn't actually say what the game play will look like.

[topaz patrol]

start from here #🎮〕illuvium-zero message

[tropic chasm]

I agree with some of your concerns on botting and revenue sharing, and probably won't vote for this as-is. But don't you think there should be more of an end-game purpose for a F2P plot than there is today? Shouldn't there be some mechanism to help onboard F2P ILZ players into land ownership, OW, Arena, or even beyond?

While the initial idea here might not be perfect, I think this is an important discussion.

[tropic chasm]

IZ leaderboard based on what? Fuel production per day? Points for building levels? Blueprint research? Would F2P plots compete against land holders? Would F2P still be treated as T2 lands and have an advantage over T1 land owners? How would megacities factor in?

ILV rewards are a good idea since there's that huge rewards pool to be used. Maybe earned via fuel? Options to use fuel on ILV, T0.5 OW runs, or standard d1sk? Would still need to be pretty minimal rewards due to botters as Vet mentioned... I guess a leaderboard system may be a good solution to this if it can be figured out

[topaz patrol]

idk anything about iz, so idk the best way to do the iz leaderboard.
yes, i imagine that the play-to-airdrop for F2P player is more of a marketing campaign to get that huge number of downloads and DAU like what mavia did.
it could be just a one-off event, or a continuous marketing initiative.
for me personally, we need to get the farmers to spend money on IZ. and the only thing i can think of is to incentize with a leaderboard so they spend on speed ups

[mortal breach]

web2 gaming numbers are declining 💯
gamers are tired of being milked by big studios that only think on profits and P2W features instead of actual good games

[mortal breach]

have you given any real thought to this?
you can't just expect to throw leaderboards at everything and it becomes a success

[topaz patrol]

we threw leaderboard on everything, yes.

[jolly yarrow]

Keep ftp ftp… any rewards not be sellable or transferable… only account bound. Boundaries boundaries boundaries.

[topaz patrol]

we have an IIP to create another leaderboard for beyond btw

every web3 games i know have leaderboard.

we have a leaderboard for content creator too

[native haven]

The question is what is the purpose of a F2P Land Plot?

If the purpose is to onboard people into buying their own Land plot then the F2P plot doesnt need to earn any real revenue it just needs to work just like a paid plot without having any reality to the tokens it generates (which it already does) giving those that try it a clear feeling of what a paid plot feels like minus the revenue, the plot generating revenue for free does not onboard anyone into buying a paid plot more than a F2P non revenue generating plot already does

If the purpose is just for players to have fun enjoying the experience of IZ, it also accomplishes this currently without generating revenue

so what does revenue generation actually add to the F2P IZ experience that isn't already there?
Nothing much + has the downside of opening us up to botting other concerns

should F2P and even paid plots have additional end game content? perhaps... and im sure over the coming years more will be added, but thats beyond the scope of whats needed right now and rev generation is defo not the solution

[topaz patrol]

this basically

[native haven]

this idea wont be what makes that happen

[mortal breach]

there's 2 mil downloads but then only 1/10th stays and plays the game

[topaz patrol]

why? farmers like farm for money

[native haven]

200k active players is great

[mortal breach]

yeah true, the point is the game is not good enough to retain 1mil

[topaz patrol]

good is subjective

[native haven]

what value does it add to the project if 100k or even a million 3rd world country people download and grind IZ for some tiny revenue? just means we can post some big looking numbers on social media but it doesnt reaise our revenue tbh

[topaz patrol]

yes

[mortal breach]

thank god you're not on the gaming council

[topaz patrol]

it's marketing, idk how else to say it

[native haven]

10% retention is strong in a free game

pretty sure Illuvium havent retained 1% of the people that download arena lol

[native haven]

marketing to who though?

[mortal breach]

illuvium is not finished or released, illuvium main selling point is the ownership so

[native haven]

cant disagree ser xx

I havent touched OW for more than half a yr but moment it launches im gunna be going ham on it for a month straight lol

[mortal breach]

exactly

[topaz patrol]

twitter, get ILV name trending on appstore, google play. marketing ads on tiktok

im getting mavia ads on tiktok btw.
the mobile market is really big

[topaz patrol]

have u ever wondered why we dont have one anymore

[mortal breach]

do you see apple adds? you don't do you? a good product sells by itself. Marketing only helps boost the sales

[mortal breach]

cause we lack gamers in here

[native haven]

yup and if its an app only being downloaded by people wanting to grind multiple acocunts to get free revenue mindlessly only its just not marketing itself at all to gamers

[topaz patrol]

yea one left and one was banned

[mortal breach]

I don't want to deviate this thread so let's focus on the issue here, what's the actual game ILZ provides?

[topaz patrol]

to justify the rewards?

[mortal breach]

and if you say it's a wanna be mavia, I ask you how far away are we from getting something like that?

[topaz patrol]

we are far, but we want that kind of hype from the big numbers

[mortal breach]

the rewards are the fuel, that's why everyone bought a land plot

the one that best builds their plot will maximize their efficiency thus their fuel extraction rate

[topaz patrol]

and mavia token pumped from that hype, plus bybit staking too of course. but web3 get hyped on big numbers. i want to see token pumps

[mortal breach]

To have leaderboards for T0's that don't have fuel extraction or BP's we would have to create a whole new game

[topaz patrol]

it's the same game, i just want farmers to download the game and have good dau and retention so we can tweet those numbers

[native haven]

I want to see the token pump from revenue being generated and then to continue generating revenue and thereby continue pumping the token because its fair value

I dont really care for the token being artificially pumped by hype because if the hype isnt warranted its temporary and will dump

this idea adds no value and bring no revenue but may or may not bring some short term high number hype that brings us an artificial pump, v whatever and v concerning if thats the councils priority tbh

[mortal breach]

fuck the hype, the hype is momentary... You need a good game for long term sustainability and player retention

[topaz patrol]

we pumped from $40 to $120 on hype. idk why people would be upset

[mortal breach]

we finally released the first iteration of the arena with tournaments happening weekly and you call it hype? With all due respect man go touch some grass

[native haven]

theyre essentially fake numbers because theyre being filled by farmers who are spending no money in the ecosystem

a million DAU generating no revenue with 1k DAU generating revenue is number we wont broadcast, people will just see 1 mil DAU and get hyped even if its essentially a lie

[native haven]

no one is upset

whats upsetting is youre literally trying to artificially orchestrate hype innacurate numbers with these incentives, its dishonest and about everything i hate about this space, v against

[topaz patrol]

our marketing was really good for pvp launch.
multiple QT shilling, at the same time. back to back bullish announcement, TL promo.
the hype winded down after we published the epic store number and the "bigger than netflix" rumour not being announced

crypto moves on hype and fud

[mortal breach]

all crypto market pumped at that time it wasn't nothing special about ILV. Actually I remember it well and ILV started pumping a bit be4 all the rest

[mortal breach]

and ILV will skyrocket because it has good fundamentals, not hype

[native haven]

because everything in crypto is speculation because most products in crypto arent ready or finished

were approaching launch and the goal beyond that is to escape the fud hype cycle and let our revdis speak for itself

[topaz patrol]

we are already planning to incentive free playerd.
kieran is hyping with "the biggest airdrop in gamefi history" tweet.
ur barking at the wrong tree

[native haven]

what does the biggest airdrop in gamefi history have to do w incentivising free play?

also the incentive to play free in IZ is to try before u buy or because u just like that game type and dont want to spend and earn

incentive for f2p OW is the same + u can resell free assets

good enough

[topaz patrol]

two separate points

idk how hes gonna do the biggest airdrop, its related to my comment about creating hype

[mortal breach]

I don't know what that will be but I can tell you what I would like to see.
A T0 plot given out to every ETH address

[native haven]

i mean T0 plots are worthless and anyone can get one free so nothing big about that really

[topaz patrol]

yea IZ F2P has always been planned, i dont see that as biggest in gamefi history. It had to have monetary value

[mortal breach]

what do you mean worthless, you'll need to have one even to play the F2P version of the game

[topaz patrol]

i wont be hyped by getting an airdrop of free access to play free games with no earning

[native haven]

why wouldnt u be able to just play the f2p versions without anything? otherwise it isnt f2p its "have a T0 plot and play"

[mortal breach]

yes that's right it kinda breaks the F2P idea, but you'll have to have an nft to play anyway

[native haven]

u literally wont have to have an NFT to play

[mortal breach]

I think the point here is, what is a T0?

[native haven]

its a plot thats not on the blockchain, its just digital w no ownership lol

[topaz patrol]

it has to offer earnings.
are you guys generally doesnt agree with F2P earning in T0 iz?

[mortal breach]

is it a demo version?
cause you reach a certain level and you need fuel resources to upgrade buildings

it's like we start building a house by the rooftop

talking about rewards when we don't even know what a T0 is

[native haven]

yh it just has fake fuel that isnt on the blockchain, like it says u have fuel but its all just fake, like in the beta now

[topaz patrol]

thats what johnny and this thread is discussing, how do we want to reward the F2P iz players

[native haven]

if playing the game totally for free isnt rewarding enough and you need to pay them or something then isnt the game just not a good game?

[mortal breach]

can't that get confusing? having on chain crypton and off chain crypton?

[native haven]

i mean maybe theyll call it something else in the f2p version like fCrypton for fake lol idk

[topaz patrol]

i cant say a game is good or not, its subjective. But with the same principle you need to argue against arena leaderboard and beyond leaderboard too

[mortal breach]

a game is good if it's addictive and you just want to play it. it's not subjective. What ther are is ppl with different tastes

that's like saying there are no good or bad movies

[native haven]

arena leaderboard is rewarding high skill players because it costs money to play arena...

beyond is literally paying people because it isnt fun or interesting lol

[topaz patrol]

i played roblox, im not addictive. do u think roblox is a good game?

[native haven]

but many enjoy it

they dont pay people to play and yet people continue to play it therefore its a good game to many people

[mortal breach]

it is depending on your age

[topaz patrol]

but arena is still free, why cant we argue that arena rewards need to wait for OB?

[native haven]

i mean arena rewards obvi should have waited for OB but team was getting insecure with how low the DAU was getting and tried to pump the numbers and yet the DAU still suck even with financial incentive lol

[topaz patrol]

you'll be surprised how many adults play roblox

[mortal breach]

that just says it's a fun game

[topaz patrol]

we dont know the dau, cant comment on that

[native haven]

if the DAU was good the team would have shouted it from the rooftops

[mortal breach]

we rushed arena rewards 100% because of hype and other big titles releasing their DAU numbers

I remember you hyped quite a bit about big time

another crappy game that only has the DAU numbers it has because of nfts and ownership

[topaz patrol]

its basically just a P2E grinder

[mortal breach]

I don't want illuvium to be a P2E 3rd world grinder so pls let's not push for that

[topaz patrol]

we wont, our game has quality.
but it doesnt hurt to have a better game and blown up on twitter because we have millions of download

[trim cove]

Thanks for all the feedback. There was a lot for back and forth, but I did do a quick scan through most of it. I’ll touch on some of the concerns.

Would this end up being a play2earn for f2p players to just grind out rewards and extract. I dont think so. The rewards will be very small and not worth the grind for almost anyone. The idea would be more along the lines of letting a f2p be part of the ecosystem instead of something separate. Give them a taste of web3. Onboard more players who will pay for speed up credits. Convert a % of those new players to players of the OW.

Let f2p be f2p. Ask yourself, in the games current state what is the point of playing completely f2p? Optimize for FUEL, no point. Optimize for BP, no point. This would give f2p players a reason to play and grind out hours.

After seeing some feedback and thinking deeper about it I think we could keep the current 95/5 split of RevDis and instead of giving any revenue to the f2p player it could look like this:
F2P players can earn sFUEL, the sFUEL can be used to purchase in-game activities such as an OW run or D1sk at a 1:20 rate of FUEL.

This could give a f2p gamers an incentive to grind. Their reward would be help onboard them to other parts of the ecosystem. They were casually players and earned a T1 OW run, they think might as well use it. A % of those players might really like it and be converted into a paying OW player.

The objective of this post is not to make f2p land play2earn. It’s to try and come up with a way to onboard more players to Illuvium (Mobile being the easiest), giving those players a reason to grind, then converting those players to paying customers.
I believe this could increase the overall revenue of the game and therefore giving stakers and land owners more revenue.

[native haven]

The idea of letting f2p IZ players earn sFUEL sounds ok on face value but since sFUEL can be spent on OW even if only at 1:20 value its still a serious issue

For Example: Botters run farms of 100 F2P IZ farms essentially generating completely for free equivelant Fuel of 5 whole T1 plots of land, they spend that Fuel on OW and then sell for real $ all the assets they acquired in OW

suddenly our game is being exploited by botters thanks to the exploit that this idea opens and value is being extracted from our ecosystem and devaluing illuvials on the open market

[trim cove]

I completely understand the bot argument. I dont’t have a solution for that off hand, but bots are always going to be an issue.

I think if you have any “earnings” if you make it so those have to be transferred to an OW account and used to play the OW and not be sold on the market you may be able to disincentivize botting.

[native haven]

bots arent an issue if you dont create this way for bots to exploit our game for free

bots still need to pay to get T1-5 illuvials in OW so they're not such a massive issue

but creating a way for bots to get free paid OW runs by botting and the harder they bot the more they get makes this idea not only a waste of dev time for little upside but a massive waste of dev time whilst actively hurting the project and creating exploits for those wanting to take advantage of exploits

if the earnings can be spent on OW but the assets u get from OW can be sold on the open market thats a clear exploit... unless u made it so that the assets you get cannot be traded and arent actually NFTs at which point whats the point of setting all this up lol

before submitting an idea I recommend first considering how can it be exploited by those with malicious intent and then reform the idea to not create more problems than it solves at the minimum lol

[trim cove]

Thank you so much for this advice. Will keep in mind 😘

[near harness]

Are u saying we should've waited for OB for leaderboard rewards?

[topaz patrol]

i was making a point on vete's argument.
and no, we are raising fund, we need to pump dau

[near harness]

And how did that work with the recently reported 180 eligible ppl competing for leaderboards?

[topaz patrol]

the dau is not publicly published, so i cant comment on that.
let's see next week eligibility after the team implemented the new system

[near harness]

You don't need to, we know there's only 180-ish people eligible for last weeks rewards. Meaning literally that nobody else cared enough to even play 15 games

[tropic chasm]

That's not correct. It just means there are too many inactive players taking up high spots

I know my son has been playing a lot and can't make the top 1000 because of this, he's always up against people in the top 100

[near harness]

Top 1k is what rating atm?

[near harness]

Ok 181 ppl plaied 15games last week.

[tropic chasm]

1372

[prisma shadow]

I can see everyone's point. Maybe try a different mode of thinking. When you find the potential problem. Don't let it stop your thought process.
Try how you can instead of why you can't.
Your brain will automatically start thinking of solutions instead of problems. Read Johnny's posts. They are balanced. Use that to fuel your ideas.

[tropic chasm]

If you play 15 games and are under 1372, you don't get rewards

[near harness]

That's super low.

[mortal breach]

leaderboard is flawed as it is @near harness

[tropic chasm]

Not for an 8 yr old, esp when almost his only opponents are top 100

[prisma shadow]

What a boss.

[near harness]

In what world does an 8year old seriously expect being top1k in the world at ANYTHING?

[prisma shadow]

Fortnight

Seriously I know a ten year old that was cashing in.

[tropic chasm]

I don't think that's the point. Point is that there are people playing more than 15 games who aren't in those low rewards numbers you threw out. Look at this, that huge gap is all inactive players. You can see names below that who are likely active too....

[near harness]

Honestly no offense to your son, but it's a kid with a not fully developed brain yet. if your son would've made it I'd think even worst than I do now about DAU.

[prisma shadow]

Wow.

[tropic chasm]

He did pretty good with the enchanter meta, was 1700+. Even though it was broken, that isn't bad

[near harness]

You know that's a kick in the teams ball what you're doing right?

[tropic chasm]

No, what is?

[mortal breach]

is this the right place to be discussing this?

[prisma shadow]

I don't know what world you live in yet I've met 10 - 12 years olds that are already at college level.

[near harness]

You're saying an 8yo can be top100 in our "skill-based " game as long as he has a top meta deck. Not sure that's how we gonna become esports

[topaz patrol]

please delete

[near harness]

I live in the world where eventually one prodigy or 2 per game of less than 15 can actually compete with the top level of any game.

[prisma shadow]

No it's not. Zep is probably the type who would throw the chess board when a kid schools him.

[near harness]

What's wrong? It's a fact. Do I need to explain science and body development?

[mortal breach]

I'll say that as it is ILZ is not really an engaging game and it's more like a farming simulator. To attract f2p gamers we will need to build a whole new game. Just my opinion. And yes once we have an actual game then we can think of rewarding the best with a leaderboard system.

[topaz patrol]

my 3yo thinks shes smarter than me, which is true

[near harness]

I can believe she is.

[tropic chasm]

I never said that.

[near harness]

I might have misunderstood the message then, my bad.

[tropic chasm]

np

[mortal breach]

are there BP's for T0 illuvials?

[prisma shadow]

I thought no. Yet I'm not sure.

[mortal breach]

this would give a bit more work for the team to create skins for the T0's but wouldn't this be a way to incentivize the F2P players?

[prisma shadow]

I think so. Works with ow T0 works the with the whole ecosystem

[prisma shadow]

It could be super simple. Just colours like the basic atlas from way back. The new skins are going to be highly textured. So if they are not like that, yet something. It would feel like it's worth it.

[trim cove]

I agree in its current state it’s not the best, but for what we have to work with right now it’s the best opportunity for onboarding because it’s mobile.
And the best opportunity to bring in new players is at open beta launch.

[prisma shadow]

I also don't get not wanting to apeal to the Asia market. The comments about it are also a little derogatory. I've met people who's livelihood and the communitys, have changed for the better because of the things we think are megaer.

[jolly yarrow]

Make sure the game is first and foremost, ftp FUN TO PLAY. People are super wary of web3 cuz of all the scamz and shady shit. Free to play a fun game means people enjoy it without pressure. Introduce earning into that model and it will instantly change. It will go from a casual fun to play experience to... what can I get.

[trim cove]

Completely agree. Fun to play is always the top priority.
As I’ve mentioned before I don’t think even what I’m suggesting will be enough earnings for anyone to play just for that.
Pennies a day won’t incentivize many. It’s more of a means to convert those players into other parts of the ecosystem.

[prisma shadow]

I have seen this happen. Yet what if it's just a simplified version of what is already available.
There is potential earning in this game. Yet it can be done in a way that doesn't make it sweat shop.or like others before them.
T0s illuvals will most likely need an extra burn mechanism too.

[final temple]

I don't think it's the Way to go to rush in some half baked systems/features just because another game for mobile market did well in web3.
Also not sure IZ should/can be used as an onboarding tool for Arena and overworld as long as both are not available on mobile and need high Performance devices to be played on.
If you wana pump DAU for Launch/raises sure, just drop some ingame reward ilv for playtime over a specific time. Just note that If you make f2p plots p2earn, you lure bots and low income population and both will just stay as Long as they earn and most likely just in IZ.
First i thought giving them low rewards like sfuel for t0.5 ow-run as mozeen mentioned could be a neat idea, but i can already see how this gets botted and bot farms generate more fuel than the paid Land does and you still don't have the onboarding because the average 3. World Country habitant doesn't have the money for recommended System to play OW.

I would Like it more if the discussion is taking place for longterm systems which could make IZ fun to play Like it was the idea anyways. Incentivise them to buy stuff with assets out of overworld needed for certain features in IZ (Like morphopods + podarium), so they have to buy it or do overworld Runs for that reason. You could add illuvials into IZ, Like if you put a Schock unit into a powerstation you get a little boost.

[topaz patrol]

is that a reference to palworld

[final temple]

Idk never played it

[mortal breach]

what's your take on giving them the chance to farm T0 BP's @final temple ?

[trim cove]

I like this idea. But don’t think these T0 BPs have been created and attempting to have them by open beta would increase scope too much

[final temple]

I would really just make it fun to play and attract them with adding OW assets into IZ.
How many t0 are there? 30% of all illuvials? So it would take a massive time to create those assets, give them to botters and Make paid Land unhappy.
Doesn't sounds Like a net positive to me

[mortal breach]

I don't think these would have to be implemented by OB. just launch the F2P version let everyone play and then add the T0 BP's

[mortal breach]

how do you make IZ fun without creating a game around it?
seems even more increased scope than creating skins

[trim cove]

That’s true. They could even farm the BPs. And the skins that those create can be implemented later on

[final temple]

You do create a game arround it, but not some rushed BS in hope to pump open Beta dau

[mortal breach]

ideally T0 skins would be less refined than the other and more simplistic

[final temple]

I can totally See that happening with the Art Team of illuvium

[mortal breach]

your kinda right there

they'll prolly make them super polished and badass

[final temple]

Most likely

[jolly yarrow]

I keep using Clash Royale as an example... and it fits here as well. That game is free to play... it's fun... and there's a shit ton of opportunity to spend money on the game. Battle pass, wildcards, gold, characters, evolutions, banners, emotes, chests, emeralds, oodles and oodles of shit to spend money on. How much revenuehas clash royale made since launch? 4 billllllllion dollars. Cue the Dr Evil gif. They give all the same shit free for just playing... but people spend money cuz they wanna pay to win (and still often don't).

It makes sense to me to keep free to play free to play... all rewards, assets, everything stay in the free to play zone and still people can pay for builders, speed up credits, fertilizer, whatever the fk else Illuvium can think of to monetize the experience. But still also make none of it mandatory to buy.

If people wanna hop over to the big kids playground and buy a plot to play then make that process easy and welcoming. Maybe there are constant offers in the ftp app to get into the big kid's playground. but ultimately... ftp is ftp. No earn, just fun.

[final temple]

Given the experience they have in skin creating compared to the beginning, they most likely would Look better than the skins out of paid Land bp's 😄

[final temple]

Afaik that was the plan until kieran saw mavia.

[mortal breach]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0SAb4c6ng8

[final temple]

Tldr?

[trim cove]

I don’t disagree with this at all. I think if we had another year or two before open beta then yes create a full game with the full experience and make it F2P.
And I hope over time IZ can form into something more like this.
With what I’m suggesting now it’s based on what we have to work with and time is not on our side.
What can be done in the next couple months to onboard the more players? That’s what I’m trying to answer.

[mortal breach]

there's a few problems for us to make a mavia like game for example the current plots would need to be expanded for space to place units and defensive buildings. Right now the philosophy is to utilize 100% of the space for profitability.

[jolly yarrow]

mavia=apple illuvium=orange
no can compare apple to orange

[final temple]

Make it Like mavia would be worst thing ever to do.
There is already coc in web2 and mavia in web3 ahead of US...

[mortal breach]

100% agreed but many seem to be pushing that way sadly

[final temple]

Actually a few loud voices... Most don't Like it i have spoken to

[jolly yarrow]

keep warfare in arena, keep hunting in ow, keep farming in zero... again, boundaries

[trim cove]

Is this an airdrop? 😂

[final temple]

Biggest in gamefi history

[trim cove]

That’s the rumor

[final temple]

It feels so sad to See how Illuvium went from we Make the first Fun web3 game to we pay the most money if you play our game.
Since some interesting Titels dropped in web3 you can see the fear rising.

[prisma shadow]

I do get the issue of potentially thousands of low socio economic players putting low cost fuels on the market.
Maybe what others mentioned regarding it being redeemable rather than sellable.
Example being x amount of time played = x amount of runs
Saying that though what's stopping a large land holder keeping the market low.

[trim cove]

Can’t it be both? Incentivize acquisition and fun gameplay will lead to retention.

[final temple]

Can be, but i would say in General you need 1 because the other is lacking.

[jolly yarrow]

When you add earning/ownership into the mix it changes the gaming dynamic immediately. You automatically have to manage inventory, economy, market conditions, securtiy... that is not fun, especially for beginners and casualists.

That's why it's important to keep ftp abso ftp... but sure incentivize coming into the ecosystem... but not by giving pennies

Give fun engaging gameplay that doesn't make people get greedy from the f2p plot.

[prisma shadow]

I think if the game is fun and rewarding, people are going to want to go into the whole ecosystem. If the incentive can help get them there, isn't it all going back into the ecosystem anyway.

[jolly yarrow]

The other nice thing about a pure ftp plot is it could integrate into apple app store easily without breaking their terms... just add a ton of monetization within the ftp plot. This could be appl specific... and the other versions for android/pc could have references to nfts, links to illuvidex, ads for newly listed plots, etc.

But if the idea is to try and get more people in on launch... well... I think we need more people showcasing that Illuvium is worthy of their time and attention. Is it fun and engaging? Is it easy to get into? Does it have the potential to earn via t1-t4? Where is the best place to start? All these questions for the noobs. But this is challenging as well because we don't actually have viable products to show until everything is on chain. So it's like fk... we have a bunch of shiny pieces right now that aren't all put together yet. So really... the focus might be better placed on hyping up the launch rather than getting ftp zero players.

[narrow moth]

Definitely a no go. Land holders already fuming

[native haven]

Very Relevant:
https://x.com/buxtonmatthew/status/1761174856698065299?s=46&t=ELcJz3PQaQqF4_-QGm17kQ

Matthew Buxton (@BuxtonMatthew) on X

When the web 3 game says we have 300k active players.

The players.

Twitter · Feb 23, 2024, 11:43 PM

[trim cove]

Irrelevant

[native haven]

Its literally relevant because you want to artificially raise the DAU without making the project more valuable but by attracting botters, exploiters and value extractors just to raise figures to get better exit liquidity

That is relevant and highly concerning, because there is no other reason why anyone would want more players in their ecosystem who do nothing but extract value and make their DAU look better than exit liquidity

Either your goal is exit liquidity (in which case why r u on council)
Or you’re ignorant and dont consider the consequences and ramifications of ideas if they were to actually play out (in which case why r u on council)

Both equally concerning and relevant

Have to say the same for @topaz patrol in this situation tbh, dude ironically has “fight for DAU” in his name, not gunna go further into the implications, either theyre self evident or theyre not to u lol

[trim cove]

This is why I cant have a good debate with you. Once you feel like your argument is falling apart you start to attack the person instead of the topic.

[native haven]

You havent debated me, you literally stopped responding to my arguments cos they dismantled your points so u moved on…

I pointed out huge issues with this idea, u tried changing the idea and created an alternative sFUEL system which is directly exploitable mechanic which i also pointed out and u stopped responding to me…

So what r u smoking?

U think little through when you speak, when confronted you dont justify yourself and you just ignore glaring concerns and issues with your ideas and continue on acting like those issues were just never raised, I’m not trying to attack you but when someone continues saying their idea makes sense when theyve been informed of big holes in it and then just ignored that info and stopped responding to it (and done so countless times) its hard not to think that maybe that person has ulterior motives (personal gain, exit liquidity, whatever) or perhaps theyre just unable to understand and not that clever (equally concerning and an issue)
Or you just cant handle criticism and any kind of confrontation or opposition (in which case please stop being a council member or grow a backbone…)

[trim cove]

You're biggest concern was botting and my first response to that was admitting that botting could be a problem. Botting can also be a problem is many other parts of this game and gaming in general. I proposed a way to possibly limit the incentive of bots by suggesting the earning of fuel could only be used by that person playing the OW and not have it tradable.
Not the best solution, but I didn't ignore the concern.

But no matter what you say once you start suggesting I'm asking for feedback on an idea for personal gain everything you say becomes irrelevant. It's clear you oppose me more than the idea.

I feel for you. I really do. You dug yourself into a hole that is hard to climb out of. I wish you the best.

[native haven]

I upfront pointed out a direct exploit that your idea would literally be creating and your response was “bots are always going to be an issue” and then continued talking with others in this chat about how this is all a great idea…

Like its simple, you’re literally OK with an idea of yours that both adds dev time + creates exploits for botters and you not only dont think its an issue but are actively trying to promote the idea

If thats not malicious intent then its incompetence or idiocy and thats not name calling or a person attack its straight rational math

[native haven]

U propose a way that u speculate could disincentivise botting from the exploit your idea creates… (it basically doesnt even slightly)

As i pointed out before, if the sFUEL isn’t tradeable the botter can use it to play OW and bot OW with it to get assets they can sell on the open market

Botters are currently a minor concern because they have to still pay to get paid assets, even if they bot they pay… or they bot f2p OW which is also acceptable because it only gets them f2p assets, but your idea creates a direct exploit for botters to be able to bot IZ f2p and use that to obtain PAID OW assets that otherwise are not obtainable in any way without paying…

I pointed this out then and u had no response and moved on and think its not even a big deal, how is that not to be taken as concerning

[trim cove]

I fully acknowledged botting could be a problem. I dont understand why you're getting so worked up. Do you realize this is just an ideas feedback channel. I using this as a way to get feedback on high level idea. I will take the feedback you've provided into consideration if and when I decide to write a proposal. Until then chill and stop attacking my character.

[topaz patrol]

Just want to remind people who oppose rewarding F2P players that play-to-airdrop is coming whether you like it or not.
I agree, botter is a concern, and we need to address it, but we are still going to reward F2P players.
We can focus on how to reward the F2P players
#💰〕token message

[prisma shadow]

I actually think it's okay to get big numbers in for a bit, churn to get long term players.
If the product has enough reasons for people to stick around and move further into the Illuvium ecosystem all the better.
Mavia definitely worked with the pump. Yet I don't really have any interest in continuing to play. Just playing to get something doesn't appeal to me. I feel like there is no reason I'm building my base.
So maybe we would get the churners and the stayers. If fuel was to be included and Ilv zero F2p is like a smaller version of the paid, it may also have the effect of making runs cheaper for everyone in the beginning.
Maybe having a high number of players putting things on the market will help kick start the whole economy, then after a bit it will normalise. We do need to consider adding revenue, maybe it won't be so bad. As long as the game stays quality and keeps it long term play vision.

[jolly yarrow]

https://tenor.com/view/nft-nfts-crypto-mint-bayc-gif-24313265

[topaz patrol]

ruby = fuel

[topaz patrol]

@mortal breach

[mortal breach]

I still stand by what I said that both games are crap, but I agree great lessons can be learnt from them.
Hope we keep improving like this

[trim cove]

I wonder if I took this down and reposted something similar how it would be received after Kieran says in my interview there will be a place in the ecosystem for F2P land owners.

[mortal breach]

I agree maybe it's time we start thinking how do we incentivize F2P players without allowing bot exploitation

[trim cove]

I’m already rethinking the idea after taking to Kieran about it.
He actually brought up an idea I said in a video a year ago about basically letting land owners own a guild that’s filled with F2P zero players.

[mortal breach]

yes I liked that idea as well. Having guilds is always great for player interaction and it gives the liberty and agency to us land owners to decide what's best for the guild while also giving something to the F2P players. It's a win win for everyone.

[topaz patrol]

so ur onboard rewarding F2P players?

[mortal breach]

yes I always was, it just needs to be in a way that isn't exploitable by bots

[topaz patrol]

not sure if we can do much about bots in IZ. unless theres some kind of verification

[mortal breach]

I'll give the example of Splinterlands once more. I use this game a lot as reference because I think they are doing things right in the web 3 space. You need to have staked SPS and own the cards to get rewards when you play ranked games. But if you join a guild and participate in the guild brawls you start earning SPS without needing to have the SPS staked like it is with the normal ranked rewards.

[topaz patrol]

im not sure how guild works with current IZ gameplay, unless we have PvP

[mortal breach]

yes that's what I was about to say. We need to create some type of co-op event for guilds to make sense

[topaz patrol]

even without bot, farmers with multiple devices or bluestack will multibox IZ go get the airdrop

u can copy the layout, building sequences

[mortal breach]

more or less since every land plot layout is different it's not that linear

[trail berry]

Hi! Maybe you can have a look here and incorporate into your idea whatever makes sense. #1092824956611608637 message

and here #1092824956611608637 message

[topaz patrol]

is that the case for F2P T0?

[mortal breach]

yeah dunno, was only thinking on the land plots we have now, no idea how the T0 would look like

but they should probably be random to some extent as well. Random region and random element nodes location

[trim cove]

My idea a while back was that the T0 land would be a simulation within a structure on an NFT land

Upgrade the structure and gain more simulation spots which can increase the size of your alliance or whatever you want to call it.

Each F2P land will have a spot for a code to be entered to join someone’s simulation. If no code is entered it’s randomly assigned.
The NFT land plot it’s assigned to will get a % of in-game purchases like an affiliate.

[frank ridge]

I think if there is free to play land it should only be allowed to generate fuel for the player and they can't sell anything only use the fuel themselves

[mortal breach]

great point, if fuel is soulbound to the account we don't have to worry about bots

[frank ridge]

Exactly and I would still make it so it generates slower than a t1. This would also allow anyone the ability to eventually explore higher tier overworld if they save up long enough which would pull more players in.

[mortal breach]

let's see what others think about this, but to me this is by far the best solution

if we don't let F2P plots get some fuel they have to redesign the costs of buildings since upgrading these costs fuel

give each T0 one random soulbound fuel node with an extraction rate of 30% of a T1

[trim cove]

Yup I already mentioned this above. Some still dismissed the idea. But the fuel generated on these land could be used only to fund that owners account for the OW. And still at a much lower rate. A grind would be required.

[mortal breach]

exactly, even with the BP's there's no need to create new BP's for T0's ,just make all BP's produced by a T0 be soulbound to that account

[drowsy fulcrum]

The team are doing something with T0 so perhaps we can get some details.

[trim cove]

Illuvium Zero Will Onboard Millions: If Done Right
https://youtu.be/QXUhuET9oJY

This video was put out 7 months ago. It’s actually talks about some of the ideas Kieran was saying in the AMA.

[mortal breach]

to me the problem with guilds right now is we're missing the raiding function and I don't see them implement anything near that be4 OB

[drowsy fulcrum]

Completely in agreement back in Dec 2022

[trim cove]

I always knew you had good ideas. We should come up with something.

I think after hearing Kieran talk about it the community will be more likely to support it now.

[cloud birch]

this is future for ILVzero. faming.

it's happen to Stepn.and the Game economy was destroied by xxxx.

[jolly yarrow]

Yah no... onboarding real players = good... onboarding value extractors = bad
I don't wanna be a slumlord...

[quasi hare]

Bit late to the party but i just want to share what i've already suggested when Johnny asked in the Zero channel (sorry if it was already mentioned here):
F2P players will be allowed to build a late game building that produces some kind of material/resources - 1 or 2 times/month - giving them access to 1 or 2 Stage 1 Runs/month in the Overworld.
Those 'free' monthly runs would have 50% T0 Illuvials and 50% T1 S1 illuvials inside (maybe a very small 1% for ex chance to have a Tier 2 Illuvial) . The T1s available each month would be via a rotation system -> for example 1st month Archie/Atlas/Ti-Ru ... next month Tatopee/Kukka/Carablu etc

[cloud birch]

land plot is 20000now.and 100000max.So,Team can controll economy.But, zero f2p can make fuel at once .Unlimited BOT's coming to farm. It' destroy GameFi. I saw other project not only Stepn.

[mortal breach]

isn't this over-complicating things?
#1210724391089078303 message

[cloud birch]

https://tenor.com/view/china-flag-chinese-red-flag-gif-26192858

[mortal breach]

if the fuel is soulbound to the account it kinda limits that

on the other hand it opens the door to incentivize having multiple accounts instead of focusing on your main account

[drowsy fulcrum]

You can have a rewarding and engaging T0 land experience that doesn't need to be net extractive. You can offer people items to use in the other games. Netting wider likelihood of cross game exposure/onboarding to mobile T0 users. Its all about balance, you learn from the likes of STEPN

[quasi hare]

Really don't think so .. we need one building added .. and one resource, harvestable once or twice/month that in the backend gets converted into fuel when the player uses it to travel. And that's basically it.
Even more, i think It's also a good way to attract more people into the OW and imo if even a small percentage of those get hooked by the gameplay and start spending (beside the 1-2 free monthly runs) to travel it's a net win for the ecosystem

[mortal breach]

if T0 plots don't get fuel how do you upgrade buildings?
you'll have to make them only consume elements and not fuel, thus needing to change all of IZ building structure numbers

[quasi hare]

Exactly like they do it now ... i haven't played on the free plot by now but there is a system to upgrade buildings. The F2P plots can be developed so I really don't see where the problem is 🙂

[mortal breach]

you're missing the point, the current free plot has a fuel node...

[quasi hare]

You don't need real fuel to upgrade F2P buildings

[quasi hare]

so what? it's not like it's producing real fuel. My suggestion has nothing to do with giving F2P players a way of producing crypton/solon/hyperion

[mortal breach]

yes I read it, and I just said that your idea is more complex than just making the fuel account bound

[cloud birch]

Allow Free-To-Play Illuvium Zero Land to earn FUEL and Blueprints (at a very low rate)

This will increase user acquisition and retention. The earning will be extremely small, but the additional earnings from “credit” purchases in-game could make up for it. These f2p plays may also decide to participate in other aspects of Illuvium including buying NFT land or staking ILV.

Potential implementation:
In-Game revenue changed to 94.6% ILV Stakers, Land Owners 4.9%, F2P Land 0.5%
F2P land will earn Synthetic FUEL (sFUEL) 20 sFUEL = 1 FUEL on market, but 1 to 1 in game to keep gameplay the same. All f2p land will be equivalent to a T1 plot
F2P land can find Blueprints at a 1/20 rate of NFT land and those blueprints are 1 time use only.

Would love to hear thoughts on this. These numbers may look like they’re taking away from the existing community, but I believe over time this will more than pay itself back with user acquisition and retention.

[quasi hare]

It's not at all complex imo... unless you have idk background in backend web3 dev or game dev okay. Jusst add 1 more building .. that produces 1 -2(whatever) per month. When you collect that 1(whatever) you can go to the OW and travel once and that is it
This buliding can have the simple requirement of Nexus lvl 9 -> late game ... you don't have to add anything else
Idk if you played IL Zero until now

[cloud birch]

F2P land earn Fuel. I read.

[mortal breach]

that's the initial idea that originated this thread, but we're hashing out the details

[mortal breach]

but if you don't have fuel nodes in the plot you have to restructure all of the buildings upgrade numbers or not?

[quasi hare]

No you don't .. you just play the game as it is now ... and when you reach the end game (ex: Nexus lvl 9) you get access to that building(which is available only on the F2P plots). And that is it

[mortal breach]

what you're saying is every landplot gets 1-2 free tickets to the OW daily

[quasi hare]

Monthly!

[mortal breach]

montly sorry

the other 30 days they have to pay for travel?

[quasi hare]

yeah basically that's the idea... play IL Zero for a loooong time ..but if you do that you get 1-2 free STAGE 1 travel 1 or 2 times per month

[quasi hare]

If they want to travel extra yeah they have to pay ..100%

[mortal breach]

I don't find that very appealing, but just my opinion

what about the BPs?

[quasi hare]

What about them? For now I don't like the idea of F2P plots having access to BPs ... i'm still in between even if they would have access to T0 BPs

[mortal breach]

T0 BPs don't exist and would have to be created which I don't think is reasonable for OB

I'm on the other end of the specter, I think a cool thing for free players to have is a skin they could show off. Those skins would have to be non-tradable though

[quasi hare]

Like access to all BPs?

[mortal breach]

yep

that's the true meaning of F2P grind

[quasi hare]

That was one of the main points of holding land -> fuel and BPs and now make one of those things available to all? Where would be the demand in that?
It's like i would say ... i 'm playing arena with F2P rotation decks and i get rewards random Illuvitars .... how would that work?

[quasi hare]

I get it that you re a Beyond player but please what you re suggesting is ridiculous

[mortal breach]

there's a big difference between tradable and non tradable

[mortal breach]

I've played from T1's to T4's I probably played more IZ than you so... Let's leave it at that

[quasi hare]

It just kills the BP demand on the market if you do that ... it's always a debate with you mate and as i said before you just don't stand it when someone doesn't agree with you. Again let's agree to disagree 🙂

[mortal breach]

Me? I have no problem ppl disagreeing with me on the contrary to what you've said about me twice now

[mortal breach]

what you're implying is that everyone would play their own plot and would farm all the BP's they want. It doesn't kill the demand at all in my view

[quasi hare]

I've dm ed you so we don't spam this proposal more than needed

[mortal breach]

I'm discussing here because I think the discussion is healthy in order to achieve a good conclusion on the way to move forward with this

If everyone agrees and has the same opinion why would we need a feedback and ideas thread?

[quasi hare]

Okay this would be my last reply on this subject. On the opposite i think it kills the demand if every player would have access to any BP/skins he wants for free (even if it's a grind)

[mortal breach]

I'll share with you why I think you're idea is bad and adds unneeded complexity so you don't think I'm just against you.

• "build a late game building"
  new structure required to be created

• "that produces some kind of material/resources"
  is this a ticket? fuel? If it's fuel why would't I sell the fuel instead of going to the OW? If it's a ticket is one extra resource just for F2P players

• "'free' monthly runs would have 50% T0 Illuvials and 50% T1 S1"
  so it's not a normal stage 1 run. It's a special stage just for F2P players with a mix of T0's and T1's.

• "The T1s available each month would be via a rotation system"
  even worse it's not random but has to have a weekly rotation

[quasi hare]

You just don't give up do you? 😄 ... you argue on complexity when you have no idea if indeed these are difficult things to implement. Are you a game dev or something?

• new structure - minimum of dev effort required for a team (i have limited real life dev skills and i might be wrong)
• it can produce whatever is easiest for the team to implement to give access to a Stage 1 run
• yes not a normal run (or it could be normal run if the impact is limited) - we don't know if or how much complexity
• we will have free decks for Arena in rotation just like free League of Legends champions so again i don't think this adds new or more complexity

And if you brought this up again - the 2 main selling points for land are/were: fuel and BPs -> now you want to take one of those and make it available for everyone so:

• why would i buy a Rhamphyre skin from you (after you spent thousands if not tens of thousands of $ on your plots to have access to this perk) when i can just make it by myself? explain to me how does this not kill the demand on the market?
• why aren't web2 games giving the players the possibility to create their own skins?

[mortal breach]

I'm moving past your idea.

• "why would i buy a Rhamphyre skin when i can just make it by myself?"
  maybe because they are actually rare and hard to get?

• "why aren't web2 games giving the players the possibility to create their own skins?"
  maybe because it's the companies business model and way of making money?

[quasi hare]

Yeah just move past my idea because .. and you call this a healthy debate. Cheers mate

[wide sentinel]

The soul bound fuel could only be used for soul bound runs in the overworld where you capture soul bound illuvials. I think there could be a complete F2p experience this way.

[mortal breach]

I already answered in my previous reply so... Don't get why you're so worked up. Cheers

[mortal breach]

yeah that makes sense

I would give the option to turn those illuvials into non-soulbound by burning ILV though or something like that

[wide sentinel]

Yeah sound good just need to spend fuel to convert

[mortal breach]

for example you can play gods unchained for free and get soulbound cards just from playing. If you then want to craft a card into an NFT you have to spend $GODS

[mortal breach]

the more utility we give to fuel/ILV the better

[topaz patrol]

it kinda depends on our goal.
tbh i personally wont play IZ without financial incentive

[prisma shadow]

We are totally on the same page 😊

[native haven]

glad this proposal has received unanimous downvoting tbh

[trim cove]

Its not a proposal, it's an idea

[wide sentinel]

i like how this idea has over 300 comments

[long otter]

#🎮〕illuvium-zero message

recopy paste my opinion;

I personally disagree with this if in voting.
probably in early stage open allow them to taste it.. is alright?
but for long term wise; is not great decision based on experience in other project looking at.

More bot will kick in and cause the server breakdown someday

[west lake]

I agree that giving f2p earnings is not the good vision long term. It's unsustainable and/or will take away earnings from investors. No matter how little dust earning you give, bots will always multiply to get the most share, which would defeat the purpose for real f2p players.

I think the best vision for f2p is making it fun for them not p2e. Make it fun enough that they will join the rest of the ecosystem. I understand though that making it fun is likely to be a decent workload for devs. Most likely not achievable for Q2 launch, but maybe I'm wrong.

Another vision is giving f2p non-tradeable rewards after achieving say X level. Examples of untradeable rewards are a low tier asset like T0 blueprint or a quality of life feature that helps in the rest of the ecosystem.

I hope admins, devs and council will be transparent regarding the goal of f2p in ILZ.

[zinc osprey]

How about F2P lands being satellites for the T1 to T4's. So basically, when a F2P player starts, they attach their land to one of the 20k nft plots.
Then a % of any fuel earned from the F2P satellites goes to the Land they are attached to (that % could be anywhere from [25]% to 50%).
The higher the tier of a land, the more satellites it can have (and the numbers can be adjusted if the player base increases).
The problem I foresee however with F2P land is exploitation and botting. We'd need ways to ensure ppl don't open multiple accounts to exploit this

[mortal breach]

Kieran said it best in his latest talk with illuvidata. F2P IZ needs to be an engaging game without any monetary incentive. I'm looking forward to see what the team is cookin.

[final temple]

Where was this ama? Couldn't Find it

[mortal breach]

https://x.com/illuvidata/status/1767173384797118700?s=20

Illuvidata (@illuvidata) on X

Illuvium x Illuvidata Partnership AMA https://t.co/HD6NfwpabA

Twitter · Mar 11, 2024, 12:59 PM

@lofty bobcat when will the team give us a sneak peak of the IZ F2P?

[long otter]

Just sharing,

There are 2 NFT live/half-live (on going) project;
both starting point are same - F2P as well.
after 1 or couple of years running/marketing (probably) - they restrict it in order to
balance the game economic and control mass bot activities.
which causing server lag issue and stop for maintenance many times.

I think;
Is not about F2P not being helpful to 20k nft plots.
Is about F2P botter who try to exploit the game economic in game.
and causing harm to 20k nft plots eventually.

[zinc osprey]

Thanks for sharing this. I agree that this is probably not a risk worth taking unless we manage to somehow solve for this issue.
If there is a way to make F2P engaging without monetary incentives that would be best

[jolly yarrow]

https://tenor.com/view/robot-robots-bot-bots-robot-army-gif-19992580

[dreamy cradle]

Has there been talk of a plan to do something other than the f2p land plot that everyone that plays IZ already has seen and been able to use?

[mortal breach]

min 54 in the illuvidata interview

addind a "competitive aspect"

no idea what it is but if it's coming for OB I think the team should share it with us sooner than later

[lofty bobcat]

We are kinda stuck on this one, the obvious competitive aspect is raids, but it doesn't fit within the timelines.

So right now f2p is still what has been seen so far (in the new beta client so its prettier and faster, but the same mechanics).

I think the most likely result is we stick with the simple raids system, but don't launch it day 1.

[woven fern]

Why not reward Zero T0 land players with in-game items like cosmetics like purple hair so they can look like past @native haven 😁 Or Arena In-game emotes.

[broken bobcat]

The idea from “https://discord.com/channels/760344898200666112/1215731397373984948” to create a meme coin. The players that play tier zero to be reworded with meme coin

[urban elk]

Why don’t you have it where F2P players can earn the right to sell fuel on the fuel exchange for a set period of time.

So don’t give everyone access but for the ‘best’ / ‘most efficient plots then the top x amount win the ability to sell their fuel for 1 week or 1 month.

Id rather have jeopardy in the form of extractors that break down and need fuel or elements to be fixed or storage tanks that flood and lose x amount of fuel or elements due to the flood and need to be bailed out.

That keeps people playing more often as if they just build it up to the max level then there’s a chance that their extractors will break/storage will flood whilst they’re away from the game, hindering production.

For F2P, give them a secondary use for fuel, such as prettier units/skins after getting a certain amount to make their plots stand out.

And link their blueprints to illuvials from the overworld - if you have an atlas blueprint on your podium thing then one of your atlas’s in overworld gets levelled up by like 500 XP every 3 weeks.

Re F2P we need to get people interested in playing the game without the output being fuel production for overworld.

So give them more buildings that do other things for their city and secondary game loops to beautify their plot or provide competition against others.

Re timelines, building a criteria for the ‘best plot’ and giving those plots (maybe 1% of supply) the ability to sell fuel for 1 week I would imagine would be buildable fairly quickly

Efficiency promotes skill over pure speed where they can use credits so avoids it becoming a play to win thing by speeding things up with money

[cloud birch]

#1210724391089078303 message
Do you own kind of farm? so,you want it