Incorporate T0's into higher stage regions

[subtle finch]

TLDR - Incorporate T0's into higher stage regions

The team has given so much love and attention into these assets that I don't see why we shouldn't be utilizing them more.

This increases the illuvial density in the map and the rewarding sensation of finding T1+ illuvials.
It also helps blending the T0's with the rest of the illuvials, gives more meaning to the scanning functionality and increase the value of higher stage runs. Not to mention that having T0's in higher stage regions will help making stronger enemy teams overall with their class/affinity bonuses.

Currently T0's are in almost every meta arena team, not having them mixed in higher stages just forces us to travel to stage 0 regions in order to catch these. Higher stage T0's could also have a higher drop chance at higher stage regions.

Suggestion for the % chance to find a T0 illuvial per region stage:

stage 0 encounters - 100%

stage 1 encounters - 50%

stage 2 encounters - 25%

stage 3 encounters - 0%

[subtle finch]

@regal tree @quick radish @cursive patio
share with us why you think this isn't a good idea

[quick radish]

@shell shale asked Aaron this exact question at this AMA https://www.youtube.com/live/OO6THLl2XH0?si=MMh7DQA6eMVScDQ7 just a few days ago, and I agree with all of Aaron's explanation. I would suggest watching the entire video, but the question and answer about T0's starts at 29:56 of the video.

[subtle finch]

it was me who submitted that question 🤣
and the answer was pretty much open ended

I would just like to read some counter-arguments as to why this shouldn't be done besides the you paid for the travel so you shouldn't encounter free stuff there

[quick radish]

The key part of his answer for me was that I don’t want to be catching T0’s in a run that I pay for. Also T0’s only in free runs, is the way to get new players hooked on the game and wanting to pay to get better Illuvials, not the same T0’s in a paid run.

[subtle finch]

if you want to get better illuvials you travel to higher stage regions. If we don't blend the 2 it's like there are 2 different experiences the f2p and the pay 2 travel. And I personally feel we should aim to mix both experiences

The numbers I suggested for example stage 3's have 0% of having T0's and stage 2's only 25%

even if you find T0's in a stage 2 you don't go into an encounter because of them, they're simply there boosting the enemy team

I really would like to see more counter arguments

and let's not talk about T0's as if they are going to be worthless

[naive parcel]

The main thing I like about this idea is being able to have more illuvials instances in OW. FIll the OW with more activity (even if you avoid them it would make OW feel more alive) I would think you could make it so you can easily distinguish between t0 and higher tier orbs (or the actual illuvials when they are on the map)

[subtle finch]

just because you can get them for free doesn't mean they don't have value. Quite the other way around. Almost every arena team right now is using T0's everyone will want to have them. And if you don't mix them with the rest of the other tier illuvials you force players to have to farm stage 0's to get them

[subtle finch]

hopefully there won't be orbs but rather illuvials roaming and you can spot at a glance what you'll be facing

[stiff parrot]

We still have to farm T0s for boot/jetpack upgrades right?

[subtle finch]

to me this whole mentality of separating the two groups of players stemmed from the idea that overworld is like opening a pack of cards. I personally think the overworld should be much more than that and it shouldn't be treated as anything less than a game! With an evolving gaming experience. Just because it's web3 and you pay actual money for playing doesn't mean you make the gaming experience different. Having a sense of progression is what feels rewarding to players and if you really don't want to face T0's you go do runs on stage 3 regions.

[subtle finch]

yes that's true or you can buy from the market. But boots/jetpack is just QoL as it is

there are no unreachable areas if you don't have upgraded boots. At least that I know of.

[stiff parrot]

True. I would not catch something that's free if I paid money for a run and could instead get something more valuable though. Maybe others have more money to waste, not sure

[subtle finch]

and I personally think the team set it up that way in order to have something that makes us have to farm stage 0's

[subtle finch]

it's not about wasting money. It's about having to scan and carefully select the encounter you go into

you currently can go into a region and you don't have enough energy to do all the encounters present there anyway

[stiff parrot]

So you have to spend energy scanning now or risk an encounter with only worthless T0s inside?

[subtle finch]

read again. The idea is not to go into an encounter with ONLY T0's... Is to have them mixed in there...

in a stage 0 they are all t0's but in a stage 2 for example only 1/4 would be a T0

[stiff parrot]

"It's about having to scan and carefully select the encounter you go into"

[subtle finch]

so one encounter would be for example axon, atlas, carablu and water grokko

[subtle finch]

you already do this... or you enter encounters without scanning??

[stiff parrot]

I don't always want to use energy scanning. It sounds like this reduces the quality of illuvials I will find inside. I think people who paid for a run will only be annoyed finding the free guys inside, so I don't think this makes for a better experience. I will vote against for this reason.

[subtle finch]

if you don't scan encounters and just mindlessly enter them because you "payed" for the run I don't think much more needs to be said

zero strategy involved and the overworld is not a game but a farming simulator

[subtle finch]

and you can say you find it annoying but some1 else can find it stimulating when actually finding something valuable. If we don't have t0's in higher regions this will mean that catching an atlas will be the most common thing. If there were t0's in the mix even catching an atlas would be a cool experience.

[subtle finch]

don't you guys think it's odd to have a stage where you only catch certain illuvials? And then they're not to be ever seen in the rest of the illuvium world? What's even the lore with that?

[shut mango]

maybe make it like only holo t0s could appear in payed stages and are super rare

[solid siren]

You might be right. It is still a bad idea to put T0 in paid areas. Lets make an example with random numbers. The exact numbers don't really matter here.
You get 100% chance to encounter T0 in free runs. Now you pay and still get 50% T0s in T1 runs, 25% in T2 runs and maybe like 5% in T3 runs. This just doesn't feel good because it feels like pay to win. You have to pay more to reduce the chance of getting a worthless T0. Nobody wants T0 because you can get them 100% in free runs. It would feel like these T0 are just filler and reduce the chance of getting higher tier Illuvials. I know that's not the case because you can adjust the numbers. But it will just be a bad design to do it like that.

[solid siren]

You will always have common Illuvials that are not exciting because you have lots and lots of them. But it is no solution to annoy players with T0s in paid areas just to make T1s exciting again.

[subtle finch]

won't that mean that t1's are annoying in stage 3's as well?

[solid siren]

Yes they are. But at least you are not annoyed by stuff that everybody can get for free 😛

[subtle finch]

they still have value....... Even if you can get them for frees. It takes some1 to farm them

[subtle finch]

And maybe another thing that you gave me an idea is. T0's are found in their stage 1 on stage 0 regions but if you find T0's in higher stage regions maybe they have higher chances of being the greater or exalted version

[solid siren]

But they will have way less value because I think their might be more player that play Illuvium for free than players that pay for travels. So why annoy the players that pay. It doesn't make sense to me

[subtle finch]

if getting an atlas is annoying in stage 3 what's the difference....

you just give more illuvial density to the map and player agency on what they actually want to capture

[solid siren]

But that density could be bad. It is not fun passing like hundreds of T0 to find that 1 Illuvial you are looking for. It costs time and money to scan all that stuff. I don't get the benefit of putting T0 in paid stages. If you find an atlas at least you know that everybody that has an atlas paid for it. If you find a T0 you feel like an idiot paying for stuff that others get for free. You want your players to have a good feeling playing.

[arctic lark]

so is the suggestion: let's give even less value for the same price? that feels awkward...

[subtle finch]

no it actually is increase the value of higher stage regions

[solid siren]

How?

[subtle finch]

everyone for the most part will be farming stage 1 regions if this is not implemented

[subtle finch]

by stage 3's having no T0's and stage 2's only having 25%

[arctic lark]

I think you have too much of a different vision of how it's gonna work for us to come to an agreement. I'll leave my downvote and keep it there.

[solid siren]

That looks like massive pay to win. You have to pay a high price to filter out worthless illuvials

[subtle finch]

it actually is a blend between the f2p experience and the p2w experience but looks like besides @naive parcel we're the only ones that think this is a good idea gaming wise and not wallet wise

I was just thinking our aim was to attract gamers and not web3 extractors. Maybe i'm in the wrong here.

[obtuse ruin]

At some point t0 illuvials will be almost worthless, people probably only going to pay for them in the early stage after launching or very specific ones with insane base stats.
Now imagine you paying for the travel just to found one of them in an encounter, makes no sense and would be so frustrating.
And having them will definitely make weaker enemy teams overall on encounters, doesn't make sense to say otherwise
Also if you want an specific T0 to your team you will travel to stage 0 anyway, or would anyone prefer paying instead of doing for free and also having a lower chance of finding what you want?

[subtle finch]

I'll just say this, when you go into an encounter you don't have enough energy to capture all the illuvials there, you always have to pick and choose. Also, having T0's in the encounters has absolutely no harm since the shards are different and they only add up since they make the teams stronger thanks to their easy class/affinity bonus.

[naive parcel]

My main argument is the only reason there are so few encounters and rocks is because of bots (AFAIK). The few encounters makes OW feel a little lifeless (maybe this is fixed with hunting) But you can easily add a lot of "life" to overworld with more t0s running around. This will even better combat bots because they will be collecting t0s. So many games have useless stuff that you have to wade through to get to the good stuff. PALWORLD has a bunch of low tiered pals all over the place and later in the game you can just ignore them but they still provide some life to the world. If energy is the issue we could also increase that so scanning is easier. Add t0 rocks as well so you have more stuff to scan.

[subtle finch]

To me this boils down to this. Is overworld a GAME or a pretty pack opening experience?
Until this is clear this discussion is pointless.

@midnight dust do T0's have any lore attached to why they only appear in stage 0 regions?

[clear willow]

Overworld is literally a Gamified pack opening experience... so BOTH

Overall this proposal is bad and I disagree with it in its current form

However if the proposal was "in S1-3 paid travel every encounter you make will contain at least 1 or more T1+ illuvial and could also include some T0's for added variability in the fights you have to make" then I'd actually be all for it

It should be up to the devs on the exact %'s of different Tiers included imo and this proposal oversteps that

Also S1-3 travels are paid, jumping into a paid encounter and finding only T0's is a huge middle finger and im against that being something that can occur, but having some T0's here and there within encounters totally adds to the diversity of paid encounters and im all for it

[arctic lark]

I am very curious of how do you think this makes it better for gamers rather than for web3 extractors, can you elaborate on that point please?

[subtle finch]

yeah I agree the T0's don't have to remove the T1+ illuvials and can just add up to them.

Regarding the % numbers it was just a suggestion has I mentioned to brainstorm

[subtle finch]

by blending the F2P experience with the P2W and not making them feel like they're two different things. And by making you to actually have to think a bit instead of just entering every encounter you find.

[clear willow]

entering every encounter u find shouldnt be totally punishing

theyve said numerous times that if you were to scan everything or just mind and encounter everything blind then on average you'll likely have the same outcome allowing different play styles to be equally viable rather than making a single playstyle simply required (allowing everyone to play how they like = more fun = good)

[subtle finch]

and my idea was never to go into an encounter and finding only T0's in there, but to be a chance of them to be there

[clear willow]

and THAT I'm totally fine with

I actually think its a fun idea and adds to the diversity of encounters and the types of matchups and fights you may encounter

[arctic lark]

ok then what about making instead something that could help f2p players to jump in the paid version by putting like a 2% likelyness of finding a T1 in a T0, and make them catchable with the T0 shard? That to me, makes the game better to onboard people.

Saying: Ok now even if you paid, half what you'll find you could've gotten it for free feels just wrong

[subtle finch]

instant no cause that is exploitable by bots

what we can do is a one time quest that gives fuel from a T0 region but even this might be exploitable

I mean it absolutely is exploitable as they would just create new accounts to farm the quest

the F2p players will make it to paid areas by selling T0 illuvials and T0 materials

@clear willow I've edited the idea wording to "Suggestion for the % chance to find a T0 illuvial per region stage:"

[clear willow]

w that argument tho your idea does take away f2p players way of getting into paid by grinding f2p since paid players can now get their own f2p illuvials within the paid experience without grinding f2p if they dont want to or having to go secondary

[arctic lark]

our leaderboard and Content creator programs are exploitable.
Someone's ability to mis-use our systems shouldn't be an excuse to undermine the actual players.

[subtle finch]

hasn't this always been the case?

there will be lots of players making $ farming T0 regions when the game launches

[subtle finch]

that's true but I also think we should always try to minimize exploitable systems

[subtle finch]

and paid players will want T0's as well. We're just forcing them to farm T0 regions anyway

[clear willow]

which is totally fine

but w ur idea implemented we decrease the potential for f2p players to do that potentially

not a huge thing but still a thing

[subtle finch]

yes that's true, with this we reduce even faster the value of T0's. But we actually increase the value of T1's +

if you pay to travel and you decide to capture a T0 it's one less T1+ illuvial you capture

[arctic lark]

how hard is it in your opinion to setup a bot to play the exact same 7 turns in arena over and over again, vs set up a bot that moves around in Overworld, reacts to the RANDOMLY placed and moving around illuvials instances, shoots at them, and then plays to catch them?

[subtle finch]

let's be real T0's value tends to near zero, we're just giving f2p players a chance to make a buck with then in the near future when the game launches

[subtle finch]

yes i feel you it's quite different. arena is out right botable

[clear willow]

i mean i dont see how it really increases the value of higher tiers and frankly increasing the prices to play our game is something im strongly against anyways, id like our game to be accessible personally

and reducing the value of T0's im unsure why exactly thats desirable either

[arctic lark]

Illuvitars experience says otherwise. even though these packs were all paid, most T0-T1s sell for nothing.

[subtle finch]

you don't want ppl to sell their illuvials cheap, because it took effort, time and they grow on them

[subtle finch]

lacks utility, illuvitars main reason atm is for a PFP and speculation so it makes sense

[arctic lark]

but in game assets are no different... how much will realistically someone be willing to spend on something they could have for free?

[subtle finch]

pay for convenience.

[clear willow]

depends what u call cheap

you still need to be able to play this game and if it costs thousands no one will play but whales and whales wont even play cos they wont have normies to flex on

[subtle finch]

illuvials will be cheap, what will be expensive are the ones with good stats for the leviathan arena

and yes the "cheap" is relative to the geographic location

[arctic lark]

that narrative feels like 2yo bro. at this point we don't even know what is leviathan arena anymore

[subtle finch]

what do you mean xD ofc we know

[arctic lark]

Do you? I don't.

[clear willow]

I hope so, but im genuinely terrified that theyre all expensive (esp higher tiers) and that the game is unplayable without thousands invested

but thats my own personal issue/fear

end of the day its also an economy defined by players since the price of Fuel fluctuates based on demand etc. (but ive tried to change that and got a VoNV attempt for doing so LOL)

[subtle finch]

Aaron said it again in the illuvination interview

[subtle finch]

yeah there are a lot of moving parts for sure, and we need a good playerbase in order for them to not be scarce. I can be wrong here but I do believe we'll have a good starting playerbase once the game launches.

[clear willow]

aaron said how much T0's will sell for?

he been rubbing a crystal ball?

[subtle finch]

no no, he said leviathan arena was like the ascendant arena but with illuvials having stats

[clear willow]

i mean yh... thats been known since 3 years ago basically

[arctic lark]

yes but the reason we always thought there would be speculation on good stats illuvials is because there was a gambling component attached to Leviathan, which as far as we know, doesn't anymore so... yeah who knows what the demand for good stats illuvials will actually be

[subtle finch]

just a better leaderboard reward will be enough of an incentive or high roll tournaments to be leviathan and stuff like that