Live Service games have 1 MAJOR flaw

[cloud merlin]

Hey everyone I saw this video today and its a serious risk to Illuvium as a whole given its an even more dedicated take on the 'live-service game' formula.

The intent of this feedback post is to garner discussion surrounding these topics and I really want the community to come together and formulate some ideas so we can present that to the team to help prevent these issues.

Video topics TLDR:

Live service games have a finite audience of people who are interested in the long term time commitment.
After 1-2 years they scare away new entrants who don't want to spend the extra time required to learn the backlog of content.
Jumping into the middle of a game that's been around for a while feels like a chore as they slowly expand and become bloated.

These are issues I personally have with most TCG games, there are a lot of cards and rules to learn and to be competitive at the high level u need to learn every single one, meaning you don't have the time for multiple TCG games in your life and its the same reason I have not returned to Hearthstone even though I 'kinda' want to.

I don't have a deep synopsis of suggestions on me but one example of a game that now has over one thousand creatures and seems to garner a new audience every year is Pokemon. Their use of building a brand new story with every new title and not including every single Pokemon as well as their decent progression through the game allows people to play them as a once off without committing to the entire franchise.

I would say to approach Illuvium regions the same way but people (including myself) are even scared off of World of Warcraft since there's 8-9 DLC they have to play until they understand the game and lore as a whole. We risk falling into that trap if we overtune it.

I look forward to seeing any and all ideas

If you want to watch the video you can check it out here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TT1tPXeaOUA&ab_channel=AsmongoldTV

https://tenor.com/view/kermit-kermit-meme-kooloveememes-kooloveememe-gif-5261178376024856538

[craggy trellis]

There's a lot of reference material out there, we're going on 20 years of the concept of live service games being around.

Re-using content is generally good practice, if it can be done tactfully. This looks different in different genres, but it could be something like allowing a set to remain in competitive play for a period of time in Hearthstone or other TCGs, or including elements of past content in current content.

At some point though, that content HAS to go, or the required learning curve for new players just keeps increasing indefinitely. Figuring out the right amount of content depends a lot on a game's playerbase.

There are games like PoE, which is generally for hardcore ARPG players, where they've already attracted a bulk of the addressable audience, and they can keep content around for longer.

Games like Hearthstone cater more to casual players, and cycle content out more quickly. Card sets are cycled out of standard a maximum of 2 years after they release.

Autobattlers are interesting for 2 reasons:

1. They haven't been around for very long, relative to some other genres.
2. A ballooning learning curve is less of a factor due to the nature of autobattler gameplay, generally speaking.

MMO's, ARPGs, and other games that introduce massive new game systems with every content update or expansion really have to pick and choose which ones will stay and which ones are temporary, because each of those systems might take as long to learn as a standalone game.

I guess my question would be: What elements of Illuvium do you see being problematic in terms of increasing the learning curve to the point where new players don't want to engage with it?

It's possible that Overworld could get there eventually, and might need systems removed at some point, but I don't think we're there yet.

Pokemon is probably not a good reference or comparison, as the games in that franchise typically don't operate as a live service game, and so don't have the same challenges.

[cloud merlin]

The competitive play of Pokemon has some elements of operating as a live service game. Where you can use existing Pokemon and strategies in the competitive format. However its shaken up enough at the start of each new generation it takes less effort to be involved. In maybe a similar way TfT just rebuilds their entire meta with each new set

[cloud merlin]

My problem that makes me nervous to return to Hearthstone is since I've been gone so long I will need to re-collect every new card to even play on ladder. I'd like Illuvium to find unique ways to combat that

[craggy trellis]

Something we could learn from is Hearthstone's release cadence. They release new sets (IMO) too quickly for casual players, which is generally good for keeping competitive players engaged. New content is always welcomed by the top 5-10% of a game's players, because they will get bored of the current content quickly by virtue of playing it 8+ hours a day. In addition to that, Hearthstone is a Blizzard game, and Blizzard has been extremely profit focused over the past 10-15 years. Releasing new sets quickly makes them money.

There's certainly a balance to be struck.

I'd want to hear from some of the big TFT players about whether they feel an excess of content turns new players away from the game. I'm not close enough to the genre or to TFT specifically to have much of an opinion on it, and it's absolutely the closest comparison available. Comparing autobattlers to MMOs won't get us very far, the two genres are too fundamentally different in what "new content" means.

[cloud merlin]

Its more the feeling of. 'I am late to the party'. Basically all games have it, but multiplayer games are the ones that feel it the most.

League of Legends has always been unique in that regard since no matter when u enter, a casual player needs to learn 1 singular character. Pro players understand them all over time. Quantity is something of a non issue

[long fable]

id also hope that the artwork of illuvium will give it another layer compared to hearth stone in terms of wanting to re-collect

[cloud merlin]

Its knowledge thats more of my concern. Every new set brings new card effects and types of abilities, such as deathrattle etc.

More illuvials will do the same

[long fable]

True, guess im also thinking as a TFT player where often its completely new characters each set, kind of levels the playing field a little

[craggy trellis]

I recently jumped back into Hearthstone, IMO it's extremely smooth to jump back into if you've played it before. New mechanics are outlined in tooltips, and just a few games gives you a good idea of what everything does and how it plays.

Cycling old sets out is super important in that regard, if all the cards in HS were available for competitive play, it would be overwhelming to learn.

[cloud merlin]

Well I think you are right, is there some way we can incorporate a similar strategy into Illuvium? Its difficult because we cant release 150 Illuvials every year

[long fable]

hmm very true. And I guess the way its monetised it cant really be like tft anyway in regards to fresh sets. Finding it hard to really foresee what arena will be like once overworld and blockchain is all integrated. But in regards to knowledge of the game being a barrier I think it still similar to TFT in that you can learn the basics and one trick a team, dont really have to even know completely what every illuvial does. but yea the perceived barrier will probs be higher since you need to collect illuvials and there is a lot of them

[long fable]

If i was to go back to tft/league now id find it overwhelming but I would also be excited to learn all the characters because they are really interesting. I cant say the same for hearth stone. I think illuviums artwork and lore will make it more exciting for new players to learn what each one does vs a barrier/chore

[rough mortar]

Anyone that doesn't play during set 1 is gonna be at a huge disadvantage with this current system. We are essentially capping our player base this way. When set 2 starts (and for this example going with 30 new illuvials) a new player will be capped at t0s and the 30 new illuvials.
For anyone that will counter that they can buy the set 1 illivials, this is true, but the further we get from set 1 the more these become rarer and more expensive. One way i can see this not being an issue is if we release some sort of breeding mechanic post set 1. Or we allow maybe one line of set 1 to be rereleased for a limited time. It's too much to ask the team to create 150 illuvials each set, but we gotta have a way to keep set 1 illuvials available to new players.

[drowsy adder]

the idea of the bonding curve is to make old set rare

increase its value overtime